It helps with focus because of the framing. Probably the first time I forgot to scan how many plants there are in the room 🙈🙈😅 until you just mentioned this So I guess it depends on the intention
I just wanted to say how much I appreciated this video and how much it resonated with me. I am on my own journey and I am seeking to embrace the fullness of life - not to be saved from it or in pursuit of the afterlife - but just seeking to be present in the experience itself. I am taking on and cherishing the beauty in the idea that life and my individual experience “just is.” … And there’s so much freedom in that. Thanks for sharing your personal journey and creating a safe space for others to discover and lean into their own.
Loved watching your stuff while you were a Christian and still deeply enjoy it/ love it where you are now. I’m a Joe fan and that’s not contingent on any of your beliefs. I’m thankful for every post you make on here! You’re doing something great. I’ve recently deconstructed and am still figuring things out. I honestly would love to be a part of the church but don’t know where I am gonna end up.
I can't tell you how much I love this content. I stopped being Christian many years ago and only really ever saw white people engaging in these conversations. I'm Zambian, so being non religious is not very common. I hope you keep making these types of videos.
Always enjoy witnessing you exploring your self awareness. All things have dark and light, good and evil. I have been decolonizing my mind and examining my attachments.
Thanks Joe 🥹 I think for me, I’ve always had that mindset of “what are we going to do in the afterlife?” I became a Christian when I was a teenager but I still had that thought. I coudnt believe that we were just going to spend all of eternity worshiping the Lord and living a life without sin - as though it never happened and everything would be perfect. But because I was Christian, life after death mattered because of the life I lived. Now, as an agnostic person, I’ve learned to not care what the after life is and just live in the now. “It is what it is” and that’s okay 🌸
I may not agree with your choice but I definitely respect it. It sounds silly when they question your reasons or assume why you got to this point. Its hard to be a thinker and a reader. Sometimes I wish I didn't question things the way I do because its exhausting. I wish you the best because you positively influenced so many of us with your art.
When you said that 'it doesn't feel like a manipulation anymore', I really resonated with that. I'm Christian, but I sometimes have the thoughts you've illustrated in this video. Sometimes it genuinely feels uncomfortable to JUST BE, the 'peace that surpasses all understanding' feels momentary and then it goes back to these thoughts. But you know the human brain tends to really focus on the bad so maybe I have experienced that peace way more than I give credit😂. Anyway, sometimes I'd be like, "Man this feels like I'm describing a toxic relationship"😭....(oh right I'm not supposed to think that way, sounds ungrateful) Thank you for sharing your thoughts, quite refreshing. There's a part you mentioned about religious people finding peace in "well that's how it is" and when I tell you that's what I want bro? but currently it feels like I'm forcing. idk man. Again, thanks.
I’m grateful that you’re doing well and love your routine you’ve been sharing, the little things make life more meaningful. 🙏🏽 I can relate to your thoughts, for me it’s important to experience life in awe and openly, not having all the answers and in a constant state of wonder and discovery like a kid. Sometimes we base our world-view with a snippet of what we see and feel not realizing we might have blind spots and that there are new wonders to discover and experience in our peripheral vision. Sometimes people are sent to us like angels to help us see what we’re missing. 😇💖✨Thanks for sharing, your thoughts always make us see from different vantage points.🙏🏽
I’m glad you’re posting more. I enjoy your philosophical take on life and de-conversion from Christianity. My fave part was the story of the unhoused woman. Ironically, you sharing of yourself, and allowing her to experience goodness and humanity, is more “god-like” than those forced moments of soul winning could ever be.
Love the format of these videos. They're honest, transparent, and intimate. That ending story about the homeless lady resonated with me deeply! Oh, the beauty of simply doing "the right thing" because it is what it is; the right thing at this moment. Thanks for this video Joe!
Joseph, your transparency and vulnerability is really provoking. Today it made me emotional. Your heart speaks so genuine and pure. Thanks for sharing. I really enjoyed listening. The frame is pretty cool! Thank you.
I grew up Christian. And a few years ago, I was recruited into a high demand high control "Christian" group. Leaving that group recently led me down a rabbit hole of examining my faith in Christianity itself. Currently deconstructing. It is so interesting because I saw your journey while I was in the group. Watching this video now, my world view has changed so much within a couple of months. I guess sometimes it takes an intense situation like mine for some people to start examining. Thank you for sharing. Videos like this really help process for me.
I'm christian but I can't help to relate with a lot of what you're saying. Understanding the evolution of atruism in my evolution class in college really put things in perspective for me. Even in animals like squirrels. And different animals have their own set of guiding "moral" principles.
Thanks for the sharing Joe and the framing is great! The story of the woman you see each morning to the gym, to me, seems very similar to the Good Samaritan story where there was no grand gesture of the gospel through words ever presented. And in this parable (which I am sure you know) many of the religious leaders or “important” people pass the person by. The one who showed mercy proved that the attacked person was there neighbor and Jesus tells the questioner to go and do likewise. I think you display a heart of mercy each time you interact with this woman. I believe a true relationship with Jesus yields pure/genuine religion as you mentioned in a comment that James 1 talks about. Much love Joe and I look forward to watching more videos!
With hell and heaven, I find that dogma really didn't alleviate my fear, it just gave it a different flavor. I'm still finding who I was outside religion, but I'm learning it really is what it is like you said. There's beauty and purpose in art, creation, and life as a whole and it not lasting is what makes it great. The Good Place is my favorite show that tackles this
Well, the plot and best reasoning for wanting an afterlife is the idea that those that suffer in this life will ultimately be rewarded. Human existence is hard, bs social constructs (of which all of human society is), is grueling to go through. The unjust get away with their evil, and ultimately that evil is subjective and not morally objective. No accountability is held. That’s obviously not desirable. That’s the greater hope. That’s the greater fear for me.
Interesting. I can only speak for myself as a Christian. My faith is not based fear of extinction. But, knowing God. As I believe it’s been, life is seeing God in his true form face to face. I choose that path.
I loved your example of engaging with the woman you pass everyday. Each moment has meaning for her and it’s so terrible that people are always looking for the next instead of enjoying and showing gratitude for now. Giving a cup of water is just as much unto the Lord as a sermon. Two questions I hope aren’t overstepping: do you read the Bible/pray because it’s familiar to you? Do you still think you are “saved”? Those would be interesting topics to hear from you if you’re willing. Grace and peace, Fam lol
yeah it’s been something to look forward to each day. but not just evangelistic element. but also not wondering how this somehow adds to my scorecard with god. the motive stops when the act is done. i don’t believe im “saved”. but i also don’t believe 1. there is something to be saved from. 2. there is someone to do the saving. i will do another video explaining how religious thought is useful to the non-religious.
I am non religious now and don't really mesh with neither religious and atheistic worldview, but I love extending kindness and empathy like there is no God, I heard a quote like that and as opposed to my evangelical old ways I think my now is a lot better.
I have never been and probably never will be that Christian that is talking and getting to know people so I can present Christ to them. I think I present Christ in how I live my life. I think having the fruit of the Spirit and them being evident when people encounter me is the best presentation of Christ I can give people as opposed to just telling them about Jesus. I think about what you’ve said about Christians and religion and I think about your teaching videos when you were Christian and to me, it looks/sounds like Christianity was like a job that was always focused on bringing people to Christ and giving people the Gospel instead of cultivating a relationship with Christ. I think God is concerned about the whole person and not just whether they know Him or not. I think this is what people mean when they say “it’s not a religion, it’s a relationship.” A lot of Christians make having the religion the main thing instead of having a relationship with Jesus. That seems legalistic to me. It’s giving Pharisee. We know how Jesus felt about the Pharisees. I think when we look at things from the side of Jesus wanting to have a relationship with us, we see that Jesus is concerned about our heart posture and not just that we told people about him. When we have a relationship we want to share God with others but it looks like helping, loving, caring for others instead of just giving them the Gospel. Even the language of “winning souls” kind of irks me sometimes cuz people be more concerned about bringing people to Jesus than presenting Jesus to people.
well, i know for me, christianity was not just a job. faith in jesus was my total experience for quite a long time in my life. even my teaching videos were an overflow of the personal moments and curiosity in my own faith. were there moments when these things weren’t fully true? sure. i think that’s everyone. but this was not my general experience. but at the end of the day, it is indeed all religion. even as a christian, i was always puzzled by this “it’s not a religion”, as a sort of P.R. attempt. religion means “the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods” or “a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.” i don’t see how that’s not christianity. even if it’s a relationship, it’s a relationship housed in religion. even the bible calls it a religion. james 1:27. it’s not an inherently negative word. it just describes an aspect of human life. so i’ve never really understood the aversion to it.
@@flightsfeelings I agree that it’s both a religion and a relationship however, when I think about the religious aspect of it I’m talking about the morality, law, commandment, rule following side of it. I think a lot of Christians try to get people to accept and agree to that side of it first before actually building a relationship with Jesus. I think as we build the relationship it empowers us to follow the rules and everything. I’m glad it wasn’t just a job for you. Sometimes when you speak about it, you say things that make it seem like it was this all consuming thing that you had to get as many people as possible to know about. That doesn’t seem sustainable nor appealing to me. I would definitely get burnt out from that. I guess it’s clear that evangelism isn’t my gift lol.
“when i think about the religious part of it, i think the morality, commandment, law, rule following of it.” but i’d argue these are also the parts of any sustainable relationship. every healthy relationship must have morality/moral values, what is good and bad to do. there is rule “if you cheat on me, i will not stay. if you respect me, here are the rewards. if you verbally abuse me, here is the consequence. when i ask you to this, please listen. if not, this will not be a healthy relationship.” every relationship has rules. i think the effort to try to wedge a gap between the two words is a game of semantics. muslims have relationship to their god as well. the hindus have relationship to the plurality of divinity. the native americans have a deep (and id’ say healthier) relationship with the divinity of nature. judaism the relationship between god and his collective people. humans are intrinsically relational. so it makes sense that any religion they would create would be inherently relational. so i don’t think christianity stands unique in the “relationship” language. its a branding thing to me. like when Coors Light would advertise how cold their beer is “cold as the rockies”. i’m like “well all beers are cold if you put them in the fridge.” lol. so the question then becomes not whether or not christianity is a relationship. it is. the questions are, as with *any* relationship: “is it a good relationship? is it a healthy relationship ? is it a relationship based on truth?” that would be my journey.
@@flightsfeelings I agree that all relationships have rules. When I’m in a healthy relationship my love, care, affection for my partner and the reciprocity of that is what empowers me to want to go along with their rules. If I don’t have a relationship with them or it’s unhealthy, I don’t really care about whatever rules they may want me to follow. I think Christians try to impose their rules on people who don’t have or want a relationship with Jesus. The rules and relationship go hand in hand and I think it’s dangerous and oppressive to try to force one without the other. It’s oppressive to try to force either for real but you get me. If we’re being honest, it seems like a specific brand of “Christianity” is being forced on everyone in this country. This brand is in stark contrast to the Jesus of the Bible in a whole lot of areas. Getting to know who Jesus claims to be and deciding whether or not to build a relationship with him is paramount to the Christian journey. I honestly think it’s a life long, continual process which some Christians want people to rush through or skip past but then be quick to be on “they were never with us” when people decide it’s not for them smh. I love that you’re actually taking the time to truly examine your relationship to and with God and deciding if that’s even something you want. I love that you are willing to share parts of it with us. I love that even when our views/beliefs differ you’re still kind and gracious in your critique. Your journey so far has been special for me to witness. I pray that wherever it takes you, you’ll never forget the sacredness of it. How it’s uniquely yours. It may have taken you by surprise with its twists and turns but I pray you’ll continue to be open to wherever it takes you. I pray that the love and kindness of God will continue to be evident in your life through the people you encounter and journey with. Run your race Joe.
Joe - Have you read “Sapiens” by Yuval Noah Harrari?? You’ve mentioned the words “narrative” and “story” a lot in your recent content and I use the same language when talking about humanity on a meta level, because of how Yuval describes the power of narrative for humanity. I have a christian background but am going through my own expansion/recalibration at the moment and I’m currently reading the book and it’s fucking me up in the best way. Thank you for continuing to show up as your full self on the internet. It’s beautiful to witness.
yes i have! i’ve read a couple books by him actually. 21 lessons for the 21st century was another great one. he def drove that point home of “myth” and “narrative”. The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell was one of my favorite reads of 2023 as well that works through this need and inevitably of narrative.
4x3 is cool 👌🏾...just a quick thought: as you were talking I was thinking about the reformed movement of the early 2000s to early 2010s. There was a pressure, an overemphasis of understanding every nook and cranny of your Christianity, ad nauseam. As we are all a product of our experiences I definitely can see how you came to the conclusion you've come to, maybe. I wondered if there were any prominent Nigerian or even African for that matter, philosophers because much of that culture doesn't deal with such nooks, if you will. "It just is" seems more of a common conclusion. I am a product of those reform days as well as the Nigerian culture and I remember someone recommended me a systematic theology book and I remembered telling myself I was going to buy it or read it after seeing how absurdly dense it was. Maybe that moment was my "It just is" moment. Nonetheless, I respect your journey. We all have to live what we believe is true.
Brother Joseph, hope you’re good man. Really enjoyed this video, very insightful. I’m not sure if you’ve seen True Detective(Season 1) Rust really wrestles with these themes and you might find it insightful. I’m also not sure if you’ve read the brothers Karamazov, whilst Dostoyevsky was Russian Orthodox he doesn’t pull punches “attacking” a lot of apologetic talking points in the character of Ivan. Keep on shining bro.
Hey Joe! This is my first time commenting on any of your videos even though I have followed for years and have been blessed by many of videos you have done. I think you are in an interesting place in your life's journey and it'd be great to know more. My hope is that you'd share a bit more about the parts of your former faith that has no meaning anymore. You mentioned in a previous video that "the math doesn't math" and personally, I'd like to know what specific aspects actually crumbled your faith for you. Now this is just a request, you are free to do what you want to do 😅 but I'm genuinely seeking to know what (aspects) destroyed the whole thing for you. I also hope that you'd get to see this. 😊 Thanks a lot!
He said that things can be "narratively" true but not "literally" true. I think I heard that from JP in his bibical series. If it's not him you're talking about I think you should give it a listen. Especially the introduction. Very very interesting. I think you'd love it. Frarratively
I like your critical thinking, very clever. I get all your points of view, may not agree with all of em as I'm Christian, but I admire and respect your way of processing life. Your saying of "it is what it is" and letting and respecting others' "it is what it is" says alot about someone. There are so many ppl regardless their belief whom force their belief on others in an uncompassionate way. To be fruitful is to be patient and compassionate, like if one sees that the other person isnt comfortable having a convo about religion or anything literally, and this person keeps on preaching, it's forced and disrespectful. It's different when the convo/discussion is reciprocated and everyone involved agrees on interacting and/or agree to disagree. Some Christians think they are doin God's will if they force/pressure others their ways. Nope, doesnt work this way. If God gave ppl free will, let em have it and pray genuinely for them instead, thas all it takes to be fruitful. There're so much moral point of views we can all learn from one another as all humans in order to keep our integrity upgraded. But yeah, that's my take for this video. Keep em comin Joe. Also, I haven't forgotten about the vinyls video lol, I keep seein those vinyls in the bg, but you don't have to make a video about em if you don't want to, you aint obligated to fullfill others wishes, just like none of us are
Funny enough, I think I may be the woman you're referring to at said event because this conversation sounds quite familiar. However to save face lol, I'll stick to commenting on the video to the best of my understanding. *Some of this went over my head a bit and would like to re-watch at a later time*. I agree that people who doubt the validity of Christianity yet still identify as Christian may feel scared to walk away. Most times than not, it is their safety net. I am guilty of this thought. When I think about the idea that my faith is the ultimate faith, I honestly struggle with that sometimes unapologetically. I do wish this was more discussed, but for obvious reasons it's not. I genuinely find your viewpoints really helpful and challenging in a good way. I also admire your ability to walk away from the faith and stand firm especially because I am guilty of black and white / absolute thinking. This cognitive distortion is not helping me at all. I feel in my journey walking away from absolutes is shedding an incredible weight off my shoulders. I wish Christians could also understand that we really do operate from finite knowledge and wisdom. We could potentially be farther from the truth, so what more the afterlife? Because the eternal life that we spend in heaven bares many questions for me. There's no easy answer that would be settling for me if I'm being honest. I definitely agree that we shouldn't settle for easy answers, or answers that conveniently provide misleading comfort. Overall, I think watching this video invites me to continue thinking, questioning, and fully processing some of the things you mentioned. Lastly, your experience with the unsheltered woman is so spot on because preaching/evangelizing to her wouldn't feel natural to me either. Anyways, hope this makes sense. As always, thanks for sharing!
After I heard you share your thoughts, this C.S. Lewis quote came to mind. I started to cry as I read it to myself lol “If we find ourselves with a desire that nothing in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that we were made for another world.” I don’t claim to have answers but can just say that I’ve found tremendous peace and joy just from experiencing God’s love in day-to-day moments and relationships. Thanks Joe for sharing your thoughts and I hope you keep being you, searching, and sharing (when you feel like it)! ✌🏾
ahh why cry?? lol i used to think that quote was quite profound. and indeed, CS Lewis IS quite profound. great great thinker and writer. i just don’t think was one of his best thoughts. “because i want it, that must mean its true.” not really top tier philosophy here lol but it feels good. it’s comforting to hear that our greatest desire in life must in fact be true if i want it that bad.
perhaps his own personal experience makes him biased but i think what's profound is that he's describing a feeling we all feel and a predicament that many of us find ourselves in. how many movies, books, plays construct a different world from this one that we long to be in (with meaning more easily attainable and ideals realized)? we line up for tickets bc we want to escape from this one even for a brief moment. again though like you said, we'll never actually know if its true or not (in this life), but it's comforting to hear. maybe that's just part of being human too? 🤷🏾♂ @@flightsfeelings
Why cry? The context behind the quote, chapter 10 "Hope" from Mere Christianity and also chapter 11 "Faith" describe some ideas and themes you allude to in your video. Noticing some of the similarities, and then re-reading the quote to myself, i was deeply moved.@@flightsfeelings
i think it was more of a joke lol@@NinaR478but took the opportunity to share the entire reasoning behind the quote. the quote (on its own) doesn't really do it justice.
Would suggest the Alex O’Connor and Ben Shapiro debate on this. You’ll find interesting, Alex’s arguments about how living as though something (in this case Christianity) is figuratively true but literally false is a delusion
i’ll check it out it depends on how far they’re taking “figuratively true.” and even still, they may very well be right. sadly, i don’t think delusion is inescapable. i left religion because i fully believe it to be less acceptable delusion. but on the other side to accept the world as completely material and aimless and yet still live as though what you do matters in some way, is a kind of delusion if you think long enough about it. kinda what i was pointing to in this video. we all end up at “that’s the way it is and i will live as though im okay with that.” but for ME, when i say living as though christianity is figuratively true but literally false, i don’t think there’s a unintended or complete delusion. i’m not living each day as if jesus is coming back. im quite confident he’s not. however, there are narratives, instructions, and wisdom that christianity and religious thought offer that just seem to go with the natural order of the way things are. they were on to SOME of kind of truth, but the means for how the got there are false/outdated/unverefied.
@@flightsfeelings then I defo think you’ll find their whole conversation very interesting. Would be great to hear your thoughts if you do get to watch it 🙏🏾
finished it. great conversation. very similar conclusions. watched his deconstruction video of ben shapiro as well and yeah interesting to arrive at similar points. we all must carry on with some sort of delusion. but as suggested in this video, i’ve decided to carry on with it and only peel back the curtains every now and then.
Hey Joseph; do you believe as part of our human fabric there’s an intrinsic desire for hope; and if so? What would you say is your source of hope in your journey. If not? Do you think we, as humans, can live a life of true peace accepting that hope holds no meaning in our humanity?
The essence that none of this is in vain. The notion that purpose and meaning are not mere words but something real we can’t get out of our head, that they exist as much as we exist and that it’s not in vain we as humans have a perception of something being meaningful, purposeful, hopeful. That binaries may exist (light vs darkness; right vs wrong; love vs hate; life vs death) not as mere elusions.
Wall of text incoming 19:13 "We just sit and talk about how good God was in that time, and there's no more plot anymore." I would love to hear your more detailed thoughts on this part in particular. From what I'm hearing, it sounds like Heaven to you has us doing nothing but repeating life on earth only without time, so all we realistically can do is reminisce on the time when plot did exist. If I totally missed your point, feel free to correct me. But if I did read this right: To some degree I agree with this sentiment. Yes, outside of time, narrative would cease to be a driving element of human existence. However, it still feels to me that your approaching the concept of eternity with a time-bound perspective. As you stated earlier in the video, eternity is not infinite time, but a place without time. There are two fundamental aspects to human existence that require time to work: Past/future, and change. Narrative would cease because change would cease. Narrative needs change in order to work. The idea is that, once obtained, eternity strips away the need to repair and change "the Ship of Theseus", leaving only what the ship truly is. As for nostalgia, since eternity is without time, there would be no past to reminisce on. We would not lament the time when plot used to exist, because all moments-past, present, and future-exist here and now, in this one moment. There is no construct of time to separate one moment from the next, thus all moments become one. "The Ship of Theseus" becomes what it is, was, and ever will be, all at once. Never more will it cease to be as the result of the whirlwind of ever changing time and decay. Ultimately, there is no way to truly comprehend what life would be like outside of time, but I've found that it will likely function entirely differently from everything we've come to know on earth. All in all, I really liked hearing your perspective on all these things. The "Piece of the universe telling a story about itself to the universe" is an idea I will carry with me more many years to come. Keep up the good work!
hey Elia! thanks for watching that far through and wrestling with the ideas. and thanks for asking for clarification. i’ll say 1. however you imagine life after this life to be, very similarly or not similar at all, is not quite the point. the point would still be there is not narrative. one big anti-climatic experience. 2. my imagination of the christian after life is influenced by what the bible suggests (though anyone would be a fool to suggest they know the details). the bible prophecies a new heaven and new earth. the afterlife is not suggested as an entirely different existence but a resurrected existence. new physical bodies, not orbs floating in space. a new earth, whether it is brand new replacement or this refurbished one. there will be casting of crowns at the feet of the king. why would you cast your crowns if not for reminiscing why he is worthy of the crowns? the king is glorious because of his present and past glory. the past life must mean something to the god of the bible if he saw fit to allow thousands of years of human suffering, his only son to die on the cross, and his triumphant return. what would be the point of all that if not to be part of the grand narrative? so whether time exists or not, nostalgic worship must be part of that existence. and if it is not, then the christian claim that this suffering will be worth it is even more moot and empty. if the suffering will not be remembered in context of glory, then why not skip to the glory in the first place?
Thanks for taking the time to clarify. A couple points here that make a lot of sense, some things I didn't even consider, and others that I disagree with. I was originally going to go into all the points I disagree with, but found that it didn't really add anything important to the conversation and that everything I would have said came to what you stated in the video; it all comes down to "We don't know the real answers, it's all just speculation". Each person is gonna have their own interpretation of the things we cannot fundamentally comprehend. I've opted to just sum up some of my ideas and agree to disagree on the basis of belief more than any specific proof. Your ideas make sense, I just happen to see it differently. 1. I did not even consider the new heaven and new earth in my original post, good catch. 2. I do believe that the new life will be remarkably climactic, just not how we're expecting it to be. (I wish I had more to say on this point, but I just don't see it being anything other than climactic.) 3. Thinking over your point about the new heaven and earth, I choose to believe that the new will have narrative, however, it will be an entirely different kind of story. One we've never seen before. One that manages to operate perfectly without conflict. I am biased toward this idea as, even while a child, I've been obsessed with the idea of a story that remains interesting while being bereft of conflict. It is a story that is ever present in living and loving more than resolving some issue. (Is something like that even possible? Who knows. The idea excites me though.) Lastly, I want to say that I think the biggest incongruency between our views is that I see the purpose of existence being to "Love" and be "In Love", while I see yours operating on Narrative being the purpose. Which, if true, I disagree with. Like music, or art, I see stories as a conduit for which we understand and process the world around us, but not the purpose in itself. Even if there is no more stories to tell in heaven or the new earth, the purpose was never the story, but the Love that story conveyed. Thanks for taking the time to talk with me.@@flightsfeelings
what is love, but a narrative? a story? of triumph. of difficulty and success. disappointment and resilience. romantic love, religious love, familial love tells the story. and quite often that story is riddled with struggle, which makes the story of love even more enchanting. matured love is one that cherishes the narrative. think of three people you love the most in this world, even better if they’re not your blood family. you would possibly die or kill for. why? it will not be because “we always have great times together. they’re a great party friend.” it will always be “because we’ve through a lot together. they were with me when…” the struggles made you closer. took you to a deeper love. love is a story. we love love because we love stories, particularly stories of struggle and triumph. and the christian story of god’s love climaxes at struggle and triumph: the cross and resurrection. and it anticipates another struggle and triumph: tribulation in this life followed by return.
@@flightsfeelings ooh, I think I get your point now. Love finds its vibrancy and color through the difficulty and conflict of our stories. So in the absence of difficulty, love can take no real color. Which would mean these new places, in order to achieve the love they claim to provide, would need to rely on retrospection of the old earth and its difficulties. That makes sense to me now. I'm inclined to agree with you on that. However, there is still something about the idea that is nagging at the back of my head, but I don't know what that is. Not right now. I'll give it some thought... P. S. Just want to give a little piece of encouragement. I am super grateful to have found this little pocket of the Internet that allows me to wrestle with my faith in an honest way with those who share very different world views. Thank you for making this channel, and being so kind and honest with me. I hope to take this experience and use it to deepen my relationships with the people in my own life. (Up until now I've been a bit of a coward when it comes to disagreeing with people, so not only has this been a good conversation, but also wonderful practice.)
i think most people on the internet have lost the ability to disagree well. the dynamics of anonymity and lack of proximity don’t make it the best environment. we learn more when we engage outside of our echo chambers. enjoyed the exchange.
The thing I’m wrestling with is why entertain discussions about your past belief? Why talk about it if you’re done with it? When I was an unbeliever (not raised in the church) I had no interest in the church, or even dialogue about a religious belief. People would witness to me but I didn’t walk away from those discussions feeling a need to refute them or anything. I was just living my life. So why is when people like yourself deconstruct, why do you feel the need to explain or in some cases lead a revolt? Why not just walk away and live? Could it be deep down inside there is a fear of falling into the hands of an angry God? Thus, trying to find some rationale to justify a regrettable decision? I just wonder..🤔
@@flightsfeelings I appreciate the response. I’m not a consistent follower of your content. I just know who you are from the things you’ve done in the past. Do you have a particular video you can reference?
when christians get saved from whatever lifestyle they are living, why do they feel the need to go back and explain why they left or keep talking about what god saved them from? why do they try to convince others who are still unsaved to become like them? as you say, why not just walk away and live? “could it be deep down inside there is a fear of falling into the hands of an angry god? this trying to find some rationale to justify a regrettable decision?” idk why yall have to rely on gaslighting so much. this is always the last appeal of the christian. “oh they’re only doing this because they feel guilty before god.” lol it’s a lazy copout.
@@flightsfeelings Bruh..🤦🏾♂️ It’s not that deep for me. Obviously there are some deep embedded issues that I guess I may have triggered for you to say I’m “gaslighting and copping out” due to laziness. Okayyy…🙄😂 It was an HONEST SINCERE question I’ve been trying to wrap my mind around concerning people such as yourself. It’s not just you as you know that have deconstructed. Some say they’ve experienced some type of trauma which I understand. I also have been spoken to by the Holy Spirit that said.. “Traumatic experiences created extreme points of views.” So I get that. Especially when someone hasn’t been grounded deep enough in their faith according to the Bible you once believed in. But that doesn’t make me cynical. And it’s not fair for you to judge me based on how others have approached you. So once again, As a 51 year old man who has raised 3 daughters and a son in the faith, I’m sincerely asking if you have a particular video I can reference to understand why people such as yourself feel the need to discuss something you’ve moved past? Because remember, you referenced other videos not me. I can admit that there may be some laziness in part because I don’t want nor have the time to go through your videos. Lastly, and for the record, I wasn’t taking the position that you’re wrong in discussing it. I’m just trying to understand why, so I don’t assume something that’s not true. That’s all!
“obviously there are some deep embedded issues” lol it continues. or the more simple answer is that you’re literally like the 556th person to say something to this effect and it’s just annoying how wrong and dismissive the point is. if there is a deeply embedded problem it is exhaustion and irritation lol the experience of leaving itself, admittedly, is not easy and comes with its own sort of trauma. but i did not leave because of a traumatic experience so you’d have to interview someone else about that. i never said you thought i was wrong for discussing it. it’s just odd to me why people find it so odd. leaving christianity was not a small flippant thing for me. it was my entire life for decades. and leaving it was a hugely climatic moment in my life. my life can truly be divided into eras of “B.C.” and “A.D.” and there are many others who have went through the same experience. this channel is primarily for them and me.
I understand your point on being to live on while also realizing life is absurd in your worldview, but with that your also saying humans don’t have innate value. If someone were to come to you struggling and saying they want to end things, I think it would be against your conscience and irresponsible to tell them that they’re life isn’t valuable so they should. Just a simple disagreement but it’s all love 🙌🏾. I appreciate you being skeptical but also thoughtful and humble!
yes. life is absurd in my worldview, while also believing that, in its furthest conclusion, life (or afterlife) is absurd in the traditional religious worldview as well if you pry long enough. in the religious/christian worldview, life is meaningful simply because God said so, which is just another way of saying “that’s just the way things are.” life is valuable because i and the global human society have agreed it is valuable. the religious story sounds better and in the end maybe more useful. but my point in this video is that usefulness does not automatically equate to truthfulness.
@@flightsfeelingsthe problem with the worldview of morals being set by the human population means that humans are the highest authority. This means that morals would be based on opinions of individuals and there isn’t an overarching moral code. And all humans are equal so in theory all opinions should be equally valid is this worldview. You could say that if a society agrees on the moral code then all members should follow that standard set by society. But the problem with that is when you get a country like Nazi Germany, based off of a secular humanism worldview, all members of the country should just submit to the authority set by Nazi Germany. Just because it’s popular opinion doesn’t make it objectively right or wrong. I’m not saying that you or people with your worldview are gonna go on being bad people and I’m not trying to compare you to Nazi at all. Of course the Nazi were objectively wrong, but without a standard set beyond humans then their actions weren’t justifiably wrong. ( and yes I’m aware that Hitler claimed to be a catholic, but anybody can claim to be anything and choose to operate outside of it). Again all love though, have been a supporter of yours for a long time and will continue to be!
yeah i’m very familiar with the reasoning. again, you are still arguing for the utility/usefulness of a absolute morality, but it doesn’t logically necessitate that is truthful. “if we had absolute morality, we can could say this thing is objectively wrong.” yes, we could. i agree. that would be very helpful. it just does nothing to prove that absolute morality actually exists, only that it would be more convenient if it did exist.
You're coming back soon enjoy your holiday. You will. soon come back to your senses. Prayers are on your case... Grandma or. Mum I don't. Know. But someone is interceding for you
also, how are yall feeling this 4 x 3 framing for the video? i quite like it.
It helps with focus because of the framing. Probably the first time I forgot to scan how many plants there are in the room 🙈🙈😅 until you just mentioned this
So I guess it depends on the intention
I just wanted to say how much I appreciated this video and how much it resonated with me.
I am on my own journey and I am seeking to embrace the fullness of life - not to be saved from it or in pursuit of the afterlife - but just seeking to be present in the experience itself.
I am taking on and cherishing the beauty in the idea that life and my individual experience “just is.” … And there’s so much freedom in that.
Thanks for sharing your personal journey and creating a safe space for others to discover and lean into their own.
this sounds beautiful. blessings to you on the journey.
Loved watching your stuff while you were a Christian and still deeply enjoy it/ love it where you are now. I’m a Joe fan and that’s not contingent on any of your beliefs. I’m thankful for every post you make on here! You’re doing something great. I’ve recently deconstructed and am still figuring things out. I honestly would love to be a part of the church but don’t know where I am gonna end up.
I can't tell you how much I love this content. I stopped being Christian many years ago and only really ever saw white people engaging in these conversations. I'm Zambian, so being non religious is not very common. I hope you keep making these types of videos.
I'm not Christian and I'm from Zambia too! I grew up on Joe as well, it' lonely being non religious but I'm working through it, hope you're okay
Always enjoy witnessing you exploring your self awareness. All things have dark and light, good and evil. I have been decolonizing my mind and examining my attachments.
Thanks Joe 🥹
I think for me, I’ve always had that mindset of “what are we going to do in the afterlife?” I became a Christian when I was a teenager but I still had that thought. I coudnt believe that we were just going to spend all of eternity worshiping the Lord and living a life without sin - as though it never happened and everything would be perfect. But because I was Christian, life after death mattered because of the life I lived. Now, as an agnostic person, I’ve learned to not care what the after life is and just live in the now. “It is what it is” and that’s okay 🌸
I may not agree with your choice but I definitely respect it. It sounds silly when they question your reasons or assume why you got to this point. Its hard to be a thinker and a reader. Sometimes I wish I didn't question things the way I do because its exhausting. I wish you the best because you positively influenced so many of us with your art.
When you said that 'it doesn't feel like a manipulation anymore', I really resonated with that. I'm Christian, but I sometimes have the thoughts you've illustrated in this video. Sometimes it genuinely feels uncomfortable to JUST BE, the 'peace that surpasses all understanding' feels momentary and then it goes back to these thoughts. But you know the human brain tends to really focus on the bad so maybe I have experienced that peace way more than I give credit😂. Anyway, sometimes I'd be like, "Man this feels like I'm describing a toxic relationship"😭....(oh right I'm not supposed to think that way, sounds ungrateful) Thank you for sharing your thoughts, quite refreshing. There's a part you mentioned about religious people finding peace in "well that's how it is" and when I tell you that's what I want bro? but currently it feels like I'm forcing. idk man. Again, thanks.
I’m grateful that you’re doing well and love your routine you’ve been sharing, the little things make life more meaningful. 🙏🏽 I can relate to your thoughts, for me it’s important to experience life in awe and openly, not having all the answers and in a constant state of wonder and discovery like a kid. Sometimes we base our world-view with a snippet of what we see and feel not realizing we might have blind spots and that there are new wonders to discover and experience in our peripheral vision. Sometimes people are sent to us like angels to help us see what we’re missing. 😇💖✨Thanks for sharing, your thoughts always make us see from different vantage points.🙏🏽
I’m glad you’re posting more. I enjoy your philosophical take on life and de-conversion from Christianity. My fave part was the story of the unhoused woman. Ironically, you sharing of yourself, and allowing her to experience goodness and humanity, is more “god-like” than those forced moments of soul winning could ever be.
Love the format of these videos. They're honest, transparent, and intimate. That ending story about the homeless lady resonated with me deeply! Oh, the beauty of simply doing "the right thing" because it is what it is; the right thing at this moment. Thanks for this video Joe!
Love the way your mind works🙏🏿thank you for sharing your truth Joe
Joseph, your transparency and vulnerability is really provoking. Today it made me emotional. Your heart speaks so genuine and pure. Thanks for sharing. I really enjoyed listening. The frame is pretty cool! Thank you.
I grew up Christian. And a few years ago, I was recruited into a high demand high control "Christian" group. Leaving that group recently led me down a rabbit hole of examining my faith in Christianity itself. Currently deconstructing. It is so interesting because I saw your journey while I was in the group. Watching this video now, my world view has changed so much within a couple of months. I guess sometimes it takes an intense situation like mine for some people to start examining. Thank you for sharing. Videos like this really help process for me.
and this is why i do it. comments like these make the negative ones worth it. blessings to you on the journey of discovery.
Thanks brother, You had a really great point about doing good because it is good. This is always what I do.
I'm christian but I can't help to relate with a lot of what you're saying. Understanding the evolution of atruism in my evolution class in college really put things in perspective for me. Even in animals like squirrels. And different animals have their own set of guiding "moral" principles.
Thanks for the sharing Joe and the framing is great! The story of the woman you see each morning to the gym, to me, seems very similar to the Good Samaritan story where there was no grand gesture of the gospel through words ever presented. And in this parable (which I am sure you know) many of the religious leaders or “important” people pass the person by. The one who showed mercy proved that the attacked person was there neighbor and Jesus tells the questioner to go and do likewise. I think you display a heart of mercy each time you interact with this woman. I believe a true relationship with Jesus yields pure/genuine religion as you mentioned in a comment that James 1 talks about. Much love Joe and I look forward to watching more videos!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts I’m enjoying learning from you Joe!
thank you for listening!
With hell and heaven, I find that dogma really didn't alleviate my fear, it just gave it a different flavor. I'm still finding who I was outside religion, but I'm learning it really is what it is like you said. There's beauty and purpose in art, creation, and life as a whole and it not lasting is what makes it great. The Good Place is my favorite show that tackles this
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
thanks for engaging!
Well, the plot and best reasoning for wanting an afterlife is the idea that those that suffer in this life will ultimately be rewarded.
Human existence is hard, bs social constructs (of which all of human society is), is grueling to go through.
The unjust get away with their evil, and ultimately that evil is subjective and not morally objective. No accountability is held. That’s obviously not desirable. That’s the greater hope.
That’s the greater fear for me.
Interesting. I can only speak for myself as a Christian. My faith is not based fear of extinction. But, knowing God. As I believe it’s been, life is seeing God in his true form face to face. I choose that path.
everybody gotta choose a path.
Again! Timely content..that I resonate with so much.
“I think,therefore I AM” Rene Descartes
I loved your example of engaging with the woman you pass everyday. Each moment has meaning for her and it’s so terrible that people are always looking for the next instead of enjoying and showing gratitude for now. Giving a cup of water is just as much unto the Lord as a sermon. Two questions I hope aren’t overstepping: do you read the Bible/pray because it’s familiar to you? Do you still think you are “saved”? Those would be interesting topics to hear from you if you’re willing. Grace and peace, Fam lol
yeah it’s been something to look forward to each day. but not just evangelistic element. but also not wondering how this somehow adds to my scorecard with god. the motive stops when the act is done.
i don’t believe im “saved”. but i also don’t believe 1. there is something to be saved from. 2. there is someone to do the saving.
i will do another video explaining how religious thought is useful to the non-religious.
I am non religious now and don't really mesh with neither religious and atheistic worldview, but I love extending kindness and empathy like there is no God, I heard a quote like that and as opposed to my evangelical old ways I think my now is a lot better.
thanks for sharing, joe!
love you! 🫶🏼
solid thoughts - morality is still my biggest conviction - love hearing peoples perspectives on it -
yes. it was mine for years.
I have never been and probably never will be that Christian that is talking and getting to know people so I can present Christ to them. I think I present Christ in how I live my life. I think having the fruit of the Spirit and them being evident when people encounter me is the best presentation of Christ I can give people as opposed to just telling them about Jesus. I think about what you’ve said about Christians and religion and I think about your teaching videos when you were Christian and to me, it looks/sounds like Christianity was like a job that was always focused on bringing people to Christ and giving people the Gospel instead of cultivating a relationship with Christ. I think God is concerned about the whole person and not just whether they know Him or not. I think this is what people mean when they say “it’s not a religion, it’s a relationship.” A lot of Christians make having the religion the main thing instead of having a relationship with Jesus. That seems legalistic to me. It’s giving Pharisee. We know how Jesus felt about the Pharisees. I think when we look at things from the side of Jesus wanting to have a relationship with us, we see that Jesus is concerned about our heart posture and not just that we told people about him. When we have a relationship we want to share God with others but it looks like helping, loving, caring for others instead of just giving them the Gospel. Even the language of “winning souls” kind of irks me sometimes cuz people be more concerned about bringing people to Jesus than presenting Jesus to people.
well, i know for me, christianity was not just a job. faith in jesus was my total experience for quite a long time in my life. even my teaching videos were an overflow of the personal moments and curiosity in my own faith. were there moments when these things weren’t fully true? sure. i think that’s everyone. but this was not my general experience.
but at the end of the day, it is indeed all religion. even as a christian, i was always puzzled by this “it’s not a religion”, as a sort of P.R. attempt. religion means “the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods” or “a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.” i don’t see how that’s not christianity. even if it’s a relationship, it’s a relationship housed in religion. even the bible calls it a religion. james 1:27. it’s not an inherently negative word. it just describes an aspect of human life. so i’ve never really understood the aversion to it.
@@flightsfeelings I agree that it’s both a religion and a relationship however, when I think about the religious aspect of it I’m talking about the morality, law, commandment, rule following side of it. I think a lot of Christians try to get people to accept and agree to that side of it first before actually building a relationship with Jesus. I think as we build the relationship it empowers us to follow the rules and everything. I’m glad it wasn’t just a job for you. Sometimes when you speak about it, you say things that make it seem like it was this all consuming thing that you had to get as many people as possible to know about. That doesn’t seem sustainable nor appealing to me. I would definitely get burnt out from that. I guess it’s clear that evangelism isn’t my gift lol.
“when i think about the religious part of it, i think the morality, commandment, law, rule following of it.” but i’d argue these are also the parts of any sustainable relationship. every healthy relationship must have morality/moral values, what is good and bad to do. there is rule “if you cheat on me, i will not stay. if you respect me, here are the rewards. if you verbally abuse me, here is the consequence. when i ask you to this, please listen. if not, this will not be a healthy relationship.” every relationship has rules.
i think the effort to try to wedge a gap between the two words is a game of semantics.
muslims have relationship to their god as well. the hindus have relationship to the plurality of divinity. the native americans have a deep (and id’ say healthier) relationship with the divinity of nature. judaism the relationship between god and his collective people. humans are intrinsically relational. so it makes sense that any religion they would create would be inherently relational. so i don’t think christianity stands unique in the “relationship” language. its a branding thing to me. like when Coors Light would advertise how cold their beer is “cold as the rockies”. i’m like “well all beers are cold if you put them in the fridge.” lol.
so the question then becomes not whether or not christianity is a relationship. it is. the questions are, as with *any* relationship: “is it a good relationship? is it a healthy relationship ? is it a relationship based on truth?” that would be my journey.
@@flightsfeelings I agree that all relationships have rules. When I’m in a healthy relationship my love, care, affection for my partner and the reciprocity of that is what empowers me to want to go along with their rules. If I don’t have a relationship with them or it’s unhealthy, I don’t really care about whatever rules they may want me to follow. I think Christians try to impose their rules on people who don’t have or want a relationship with Jesus. The rules and relationship go hand in hand and I think it’s dangerous and oppressive to try to force one without the other. It’s oppressive to try to force either for real but you get me. If we’re being honest, it seems like a specific brand of “Christianity” is being forced on everyone in this country. This brand is in stark contrast to the Jesus of the Bible in a whole lot of areas. Getting to know who Jesus claims to be and deciding whether or not to build a relationship with him is paramount to the Christian journey. I honestly think it’s a life long, continual process which some Christians want people to rush through or skip past but then be quick to be on “they were never with us” when people decide it’s not for them smh. I love that you’re actually taking the time to truly examine your relationship to and with God and deciding if that’s even something you want. I love that you are willing to share parts of it with us. I love that even when our views/beliefs differ you’re still kind and gracious in your critique. Your journey so far has been special for me to witness. I pray that wherever it takes you, you’ll never forget the sacredness of it. How it’s uniquely yours. It may have taken you by surprise with its twists and turns but I pray you’ll continue to be open to wherever it takes you. I pray that the love and kindness of God will continue to be evident in your life through the people you encounter and journey with. Run your race Joe.
Joe - Have you read “Sapiens” by Yuval Noah Harrari??
You’ve mentioned the words “narrative” and “story” a lot in your recent content and I use the same language when talking about humanity on a meta level, because of how Yuval describes the power of narrative for humanity.
I have a christian background but am going through my own expansion/recalibration at the moment and I’m currently reading the book and it’s fucking me up in the best way.
Thank you for continuing to show up as your full self on the internet. It’s beautiful to witness.
yes i have! i’ve read a couple books by him actually. 21 lessons for the 21st century was another great one. he def drove that point home of “myth” and “narrative”. The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell was one of my favorite reads of 2023 as well that works through this need and inevitably of narrative.
“21 Lessons” is next on my list - I’ll add “The Power of Myth” to the list!
Great discussion! 👍🏾
4x3 is cool 👌🏾...just a quick thought: as you were talking I was thinking about the reformed movement of the early 2000s to early 2010s. There was a pressure, an overemphasis of understanding every nook and cranny of your Christianity, ad nauseam. As we are all a product of our experiences I definitely can see how you came to the conclusion you've come to, maybe. I wondered if there were any prominent Nigerian or even African for that matter, philosophers because much of that culture doesn't deal with such nooks, if you will. "It just is" seems more of a common conclusion. I am a product of those reform days as well as the Nigerian culture and I remember someone recommended me a systematic theology book and I remembered telling myself I was going to buy it or read it after seeing how absurdly dense it was. Maybe that moment was my "It just is" moment. Nonetheless, I respect your journey. We all have to live what we believe is true.
Brother Joseph, hope you’re good man. Really enjoyed this video, very insightful. I’m not sure if you’ve seen True Detective(Season 1) Rust really wrestles with these themes and you might find it insightful. I’m also not sure if you’ve read the brothers Karamazov, whilst Dostoyevsky was Russian Orthodox he doesn’t pull punches “attacking” a lot of apologetic talking points in the character of Ivan.
Keep on shining bro.
Hey Joe! This is my first time commenting on any of your videos even though I have followed for years and have been blessed by many of videos you have done. I think you are in an interesting place in your life's journey and it'd be great to know more. My hope is that you'd share a bit more about the parts of your former faith that has no meaning anymore. You mentioned in a previous video that "the math doesn't math" and personally, I'd like to know what specific aspects actually crumbled your faith for you. Now this is just a request, you are free to do what you want to do 😅 but I'm genuinely seeking to know what (aspects) destroyed the whole thing for you. I also hope that you'd get to see this. 😊 Thanks a lot!
He said that things can be "narratively" true but not "literally" true. I think I heard that from JP in his bibical series. If it's not him you're talking about I think you should give it a listen. Especially the introduction. Very very interesting. I think you'd love it. Frarratively
I like your critical thinking, very clever. I get all your points of view, may not agree with all of em as I'm Christian, but I admire and respect your way of processing life. Your saying of "it is what it is" and letting and respecting others' "it is what it is" says alot about someone. There are so many ppl regardless their belief whom force their belief on others in an uncompassionate way. To be fruitful is to be patient and compassionate, like if one sees that the other person isnt comfortable having a convo about religion or anything literally, and this person keeps on preaching, it's forced and disrespectful. It's different when the convo/discussion is reciprocated and everyone involved agrees on interacting and/or agree to disagree. Some Christians think they are doin God's will if they force/pressure others their ways. Nope, doesnt work this way. If God gave ppl free will, let em have it and pray genuinely for them instead, thas all it takes to be fruitful. There're so much moral point of views we can all learn from one another as all humans in order to keep our integrity upgraded. But yeah, that's my take for this video. Keep em comin Joe. Also, I haven't forgotten about the vinyls video lol, I keep seein those vinyls in the bg, but you don't have to make a video about em if you don't want to, you aint obligated to fullfill others wishes, just like none of us are
Funny enough, I think I may be the woman you're referring to at said event because this conversation sounds quite familiar. However to save face lol, I'll stick to commenting on the video to the best of my understanding. *Some of this went over my head a bit and would like to re-watch at a later time*. I agree that people who doubt the validity of Christianity yet still identify as Christian may feel scared to walk away. Most times than not, it is their safety net. I am guilty of this thought. When I think about the idea that my faith is the ultimate faith, I honestly struggle with that sometimes unapologetically. I do wish this was more discussed, but for obvious reasons it's not. I genuinely find your viewpoints really helpful and challenging in a good way. I also admire your ability to walk away from the faith and stand firm especially because I am guilty of black and white / absolute thinking. This cognitive distortion is not helping me at all. I feel in my journey walking away from absolutes is shedding an incredible weight off my shoulders. I wish Christians could also understand that we really do operate from finite knowledge and wisdom. We could potentially be farther from the truth, so what more the afterlife? Because the eternal life that we spend in heaven bares many questions for me. There's no easy answer that would be settling for me if I'm being honest. I definitely agree that we shouldn't settle for easy answers, or answers that conveniently provide misleading comfort. Overall, I think watching this video invites me to continue thinking, questioning, and fully processing some of the things you mentioned. Lastly, your experience with the unsheltered woman is so spot on because preaching/evangelizing to her wouldn't feel natural to me either. Anyways, hope this makes sense. As always, thanks for sharing!
When's the next livestream?
great content no cappp
What do you focus more on now on your life?
After I heard you share your thoughts, this C.S. Lewis quote came to mind. I started to cry as I read it to myself lol
“If we find ourselves with a desire that nothing in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that we were made for another world.”
I don’t claim to have answers but can just say that I’ve found tremendous peace and joy just from experiencing God’s love in day-to-day moments and relationships. Thanks Joe for sharing your thoughts and I hope you keep being you, searching, and sharing (when you feel like it)! ✌🏾
ahh why cry?? lol
i used to think that quote was quite profound. and indeed, CS Lewis IS quite profound. great great thinker and writer. i just don’t think was one of his best thoughts. “because i want it, that must mean its true.” not really top tier philosophy here lol but it feels good. it’s comforting to hear that our greatest desire in life must in fact be true if i want it that bad.
perhaps his own personal experience makes him biased but i think what's profound is that he's describing a feeling we all feel and a predicament that many of us find ourselves in. how many movies, books, plays construct a different world from this one that we long to be in (with meaning more easily attainable and ideals realized)? we line up for tickets bc we want to escape from this one even for a brief moment. again though like you said, we'll never actually know if its true or not (in this life), but it's comforting to hear. maybe that's just part of being human too? 🤷🏾♂ @@flightsfeelings
Why cry? The context behind the quote, chapter 10 "Hope" from Mere Christianity and also chapter 11 "Faith" describe some ideas and themes you allude to in your video. Noticing some of the similarities, and then re-reading the quote to myself, i was deeply moved.@@flightsfeelings
@@flightsfeelingsI mean we are all allowed to react as we please
i think it was more of a joke lol@@NinaR478but took the opportunity to share the entire reasoning behind the quote. the quote (on its own) doesn't really do it justice.
Would suggest the Alex O’Connor and Ben Shapiro debate on this. You’ll find interesting, Alex’s arguments about how living as though something (in this case Christianity) is figuratively true but literally false is a delusion
i’ll check it out it depends on how far they’re taking “figuratively true.” and even still, they may very well be right. sadly, i don’t think delusion is inescapable. i left religion because i fully believe it to be less acceptable delusion. but on the other side to accept the world as completely material and aimless and yet still live as though what you do matters in some way, is a kind of delusion if you think long enough about it. kinda what i was pointing to in this video. we all end up at “that’s the way it is and i will live as though im okay with that.”
but for ME, when i say living as though christianity is figuratively true but literally false, i don’t think there’s a unintended or complete delusion. i’m not living each day as if jesus is coming back. im quite confident he’s not. however, there are narratives, instructions, and wisdom that christianity and religious thought offer that just seem to go with the natural order of the way things are. they were on to SOME of kind of truth, but the means for how the got there are false/outdated/unverefied.
@@flightsfeelings then I defo think you’ll find their whole conversation very interesting. Would be great to hear your thoughts if you do get to watch it 🙏🏾
finished it. great conversation. very similar conclusions. watched his deconstruction video of ben shapiro as well and yeah interesting to arrive at similar points. we all must carry on with some sort of delusion. but as suggested in this video, i’ve decided to carry on with it and only peel back the curtains every now and then.
I don't mean to distracted, but at 40:00 it sounded like you were doing poetry 🤌🏾
Hey Joseph; do you believe as part of our human fabric there’s an intrinsic desire for hope; and if so? What would you say is your source of hope in your journey. If not? Do you think we, as humans, can live a life of true peace accepting that hope holds no meaning in our humanity?
define hope
The essence that none of this is in vain. The notion that purpose and meaning are not mere words but something real we can’t get out of our head, that they exist as much as we exist and that it’s not in vain we as humans have a perception of something being meaningful, purposeful, hopeful. That binaries may exist (light vs darkness; right vs wrong; love vs hate; life vs death) not as mere elusions.
Wall of text incoming
19:13 "We just sit and talk about how good God was in that time, and there's no more plot anymore." I would love to hear your more detailed thoughts on this part in particular. From what I'm hearing, it sounds like Heaven to you has us doing nothing but repeating life on earth only without time, so all we realistically can do is reminisce on the time when plot did exist.
If I totally missed your point, feel free to correct me. But if I did read this right:
To some degree I agree with this sentiment. Yes, outside of time, narrative would cease to be a driving element of human existence. However, it still feels to me that your approaching the concept of eternity with a time-bound perspective. As you stated earlier in the video, eternity is not infinite time, but a place without time. There are two fundamental aspects to human existence that require time to work: Past/future, and change.
Narrative would cease because change would cease. Narrative needs change in order to work. The idea is that, once obtained, eternity strips away the need to repair and change "the Ship of Theseus", leaving only what the ship truly is.
As for nostalgia, since eternity is without time, there would be no past to reminisce on. We would not lament the time when plot used to exist, because all moments-past, present, and future-exist here and now, in this one moment. There is no construct of time to separate one moment from the next, thus all moments become one. "The Ship of Theseus" becomes what it is, was, and ever will be, all at once. Never more will it cease to be as the result of the whirlwind of ever changing time and decay.
Ultimately, there is no way to truly comprehend what life would be like outside of time, but I've found that it will likely function entirely differently from everything we've come to know on earth.
All in all, I really liked hearing your perspective on all these things. The "Piece of the universe telling a story about itself to the universe" is an idea I will carry with me more many years to come. Keep up the good work!
hey Elia! thanks for watching that far through and wrestling with the ideas. and thanks for asking for clarification. i’ll say
1. however you imagine life after this life to be, very similarly or not similar at all, is not quite the point. the point would still be there is not narrative. one big anti-climatic experience.
2. my imagination of the christian after life is influenced by what the bible suggests (though anyone would be a fool to suggest they know the details). the bible prophecies a new heaven and new earth. the afterlife is not suggested as an entirely different existence but a resurrected existence. new physical bodies, not orbs floating in space. a new earth, whether it is brand new replacement or this refurbished one. there will be casting of crowns at the feet of the king. why would you cast your crowns if not for reminiscing why he is worthy of the crowns? the king is glorious because of his present and past glory. the past life must mean something to the god of the bible if he saw fit to allow thousands of years of human suffering, his only son to die on the cross, and his triumphant return. what would be the point of all that if not to be part of the grand narrative? so whether time exists or not, nostalgic worship must be part of that existence. and if it is not, then the christian claim that this suffering will be worth it is even more moot and empty. if the suffering will not be remembered in context of glory, then why not skip to the glory in the first place?
Thanks for taking the time to clarify. A couple points here that make a lot of sense, some things I didn't even consider, and others that I disagree with.
I was originally going to go into all the points I disagree with, but found that it didn't really add anything important to the conversation and that everything I would have said came to what you stated in the video; it all comes down to "We don't know the real answers, it's all just speculation". Each person is gonna have their own interpretation of the things we cannot fundamentally comprehend.
I've opted to just sum up some of my ideas and agree to disagree on the basis of belief more than any specific proof. Your ideas make sense, I just happen to see it differently.
1. I did not even consider the new heaven and new earth in my original post, good catch.
2. I do believe that the new life will be remarkably climactic, just not how we're expecting it to be. (I wish I had more to say on this point, but I just don't see it being anything other than climactic.)
3. Thinking over your point about the new heaven and earth, I choose to believe that the new will have narrative, however, it will be an entirely different kind of story. One we've never seen before. One that manages to operate perfectly without conflict. I am biased toward this idea as, even while a child, I've been obsessed with the idea of a story that remains interesting while being bereft of conflict. It is a story that is ever present in living and loving more than resolving some issue. (Is something like that even possible? Who knows. The idea excites me though.)
Lastly, I want to say that I think the biggest incongruency between our views is that I see the purpose of existence being to "Love" and be "In Love", while I see yours operating on Narrative being the purpose. Which, if true, I disagree with. Like music, or art, I see stories as a conduit for which we understand and process the world around us, but not the purpose in itself. Even if there is no more stories to tell in heaven or the new earth, the purpose was never the story, but the Love that story conveyed.
Thanks for taking the time to talk with me.@@flightsfeelings
what is love, but a narrative? a story? of triumph. of difficulty and success. disappointment and resilience. romantic love, religious love, familial love tells the story. and quite often that story is riddled with struggle, which makes the story of love even more enchanting. matured love is one that cherishes the narrative. think of three people you love the most in this world, even better if they’re not your blood family. you would possibly die or kill for. why? it will not be because “we always have great times together. they’re a great party friend.” it will always be “because we’ve through a lot together. they were with me when…” the struggles made you closer. took you to a deeper love. love is a story. we love love because we love stories, particularly stories of struggle and triumph. and the christian story of god’s love climaxes at struggle and triumph: the cross and resurrection. and it anticipates another struggle and triumph: tribulation in this life followed by return.
@@flightsfeelings ooh, I think I get your point now. Love finds its vibrancy and color through the difficulty and conflict of our stories. So in the absence of difficulty, love can take no real color. Which would mean these new places, in order to achieve the love they claim to provide, would need to rely on retrospection of the old earth and its difficulties.
That makes sense to me now.
I'm inclined to agree with you on that. However, there is still something about the idea that is nagging at the back of my head, but I don't know what that is. Not right now.
I'll give it some thought...
P. S.
Just want to give a little piece of encouragement. I am super grateful to have found this little pocket of the Internet that allows me to wrestle with my faith in an honest way with those who share very different world views. Thank you for making this channel, and being so kind and honest with me. I hope to take this experience and use it to deepen my relationships with the people in my own life. (Up until now I've been a bit of a coward when it comes to disagreeing with people, so not only has this been a good conversation, but also wonderful practice.)
i think most people on the internet have lost the ability to disagree well. the dynamics of anonymity and lack of proximity don’t make it the best environment. we learn more when we engage outside of our echo chambers. enjoyed the exchange.
It’s fun to see how you guys process more Is Kirby an ENFJ or ENFP and Richard is an INTP or INFP?
The thing I’m wrestling with is why entertain discussions about your past belief?
Why talk about it if you’re done with it?
When I was an unbeliever (not raised in the church) I had no interest in the church, or even dialogue about a religious belief.
People would witness to me but I didn’t walk away from those discussions feeling a need to refute them or anything.
I was just living my life. So why is when people like yourself deconstruct, why do you feel the need to explain or in some cases lead a revolt?
Why not just walk away and live? Could it be deep down inside there is a fear of falling into the hands of an angry God? Thus, trying to find some rationale to justify a regrettable decision? I just wonder..🤔
i’ve addressed already in other videos. you can watch those if you’d like. i discuss it because it’s worth discussing.
@@flightsfeelings
I appreciate the response. I’m not a consistent follower of your content. I just know who you are from the things you’ve done in the past. Do you have a particular video you can reference?
when christians get saved from whatever lifestyle they are living, why do they feel the need to go back and explain why they left or keep talking about what god saved them from? why do they try to convince others who are still unsaved to become like them? as you say, why not just walk away and live?
“could it be deep down inside there is a fear of falling into the hands of an angry god? this trying to find some rationale to justify a regrettable decision?” idk why yall have to rely on gaslighting so much. this is always the last appeal of the christian. “oh they’re only doing this because they feel guilty before god.” lol it’s a lazy copout.
@@flightsfeelings
Bruh..🤦🏾♂️
It’s not that deep for me. Obviously there are some deep embedded issues that I guess I may have triggered for you to say I’m “gaslighting and copping out” due to laziness. Okayyy…🙄😂
It was an HONEST SINCERE question I’ve been trying to wrap my mind around concerning people such as yourself.
It’s not just you as you know that have deconstructed. Some say they’ve experienced some type of trauma which I understand. I also have been spoken to by the Holy Spirit that said..
“Traumatic experiences created extreme points of views.”
So I get that. Especially when someone hasn’t been grounded deep enough in their faith according to the Bible you once believed in.
But that doesn’t make me cynical. And it’s not fair for you to judge me based on how others have approached you.
So once again,
As a 51 year old man who has raised 3 daughters and a son in the faith, I’m sincerely asking if you have a particular video I can reference to understand why people such as yourself feel the need to discuss something you’ve moved past?
Because remember, you referenced other videos not me. I can admit that there may be some laziness in part because I don’t want nor have the time to go through your videos.
Lastly, and for the record, I wasn’t taking the position that you’re wrong in discussing it. I’m just trying to understand why, so I don’t assume something that’s not true. That’s all!
“obviously there are some deep embedded issues” lol it continues. or the more simple answer is that you’re literally like the 556th person to say something to this effect and it’s just annoying how wrong and dismissive the point is. if there is a deeply embedded problem it is exhaustion and irritation lol
the experience of leaving itself, admittedly, is not easy and comes with its own sort of trauma. but i did not leave because of a traumatic experience so you’d have to interview someone else about that.
i never said you thought i was wrong for discussing it. it’s just odd to me why people find it so odd. leaving christianity was not a small flippant thing for me. it was my entire life for decades. and leaving it was a hugely climatic moment in my life. my life can truly be divided into eras of “B.C.” and “A.D.” and there are many others who have went through the same experience. this channel is primarily for them and me.
Can talk about lust why it's not good lust over nobody
I understand your point on being to live on while also realizing life is absurd in your worldview, but with that your also saying humans don’t have innate value. If someone were to come to you struggling and saying they want to end things, I think it would be against your conscience and irresponsible to tell them that they’re life isn’t valuable so they should. Just a simple disagreement but it’s all love 🙌🏾. I appreciate you being skeptical but also thoughtful and humble!
yes. life is absurd in my worldview, while also believing that, in its furthest conclusion, life (or afterlife) is absurd in the traditional religious worldview as well if you pry long enough. in the religious/christian worldview, life is meaningful simply because God said so, which is just another way of saying “that’s just the way things are.” life is valuable because i and the global human society have agreed it is valuable. the religious story sounds better and in the end maybe more useful. but my point in this video is that usefulness does not automatically equate to truthfulness.
@@flightsfeelingsthe problem with the worldview of morals being set by the human population means that humans are the highest authority. This means that morals would be based on opinions of individuals and there isn’t an overarching moral code. And all humans are equal so in theory all opinions should be equally valid is this worldview. You could say that if a society agrees on the moral code then all members should follow that standard set by society. But the problem with that is when you get a country like Nazi Germany, based off of a secular humanism worldview, all members of the country should just submit to the authority set by Nazi Germany. Just because it’s popular opinion doesn’t make it objectively right or wrong. I’m not saying that you or people with your worldview are gonna go on being bad people and I’m not trying to compare you to Nazi at all. Of course the Nazi were objectively wrong, but without a standard set beyond humans then their actions weren’t justifiably wrong. ( and yes I’m aware that Hitler claimed to be a catholic, but anybody can claim to be anything and choose to operate outside of it). Again all love though, have been a supporter of yours for a long time and will continue to be!
yeah i’m very familiar with the reasoning. again, you are still arguing for the utility/usefulness of a absolute morality, but it doesn’t logically necessitate that is truthful. “if we had absolute morality, we can could say this thing is objectively wrong.” yes, we could. i agree. that would be very helpful. it just does nothing to prove that absolute morality actually exists, only that it would be more convenient if it did exist.
You're coming back soon enjoy your holiday. You will. soon come back to your senses. Prayers are on your case... Grandma or. Mum I don't. Know. But someone is interceding for you
both my grandmothers are dead.
I just gagged @theshores!! 😂😂 if y’all don’t leave this man alone maybe it’s ok bc at least there can be hilarious moments like this
Jesus wasn't a Christian. Next😊
You do know what the word Christian means right….. no actual Christ followe would make that claim.
Yeah. Bc he is Christ. Lol
wow. you got me there. never thought of that.