In Gulliver's Travels the Lilliputians are divided by those called the big ender's and the small ender's. Dr Heiser is not trying to make you one or the other, he is trying to stop people going to war over it.
I used to hold on to the classic dispensationalism, but here, later in life after decades of study have come down to the resurrection and not a rapture theology. And I also can't get my eyes off of what happened in 70 a.d., and how much of Matt 24 matches those events very clearly. But the bottom line for me is this: God loves us. And I don't believe God is a sadist. We were not made for wrath. But I also know we are warned over and over to be ready. Every human that has ever lived, or is alive at His return will be judged on the great day of judgement. That much we do know, and that is what you need to prepare for. Keep your lamps full.
@@achoice2bmade You were correct, but weak faith in the truth changed you. Some preterist got to you. ua-cam.com/video/rK5V-LSvO3g/v-deo.htmlsi=W4XjZdvP6XngHyxp
Not appointed to wrath? You are a fallen angel that was judged to die like men. You wanted Satan's flesh party, you got it. It's your convenant with death. Only one Gospel: The Gospel of Reconciliation. Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself. We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness. If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever. Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods). REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
I was once where you were and now where you are. Scriptures interpret Scriptures. That's why I'm a partial - preterist.. I've held this view for many years.
I have long ago thought that eschatology was a thing God was not displaying clearly for his own good reasons. This puts meat on the bones of my thoughts.
I think it's not clear, therefore we may never know 100 percent. That's ok. Believers will be saved by trusting Jesus. We won't go to hell. Hallelujah! Jesus said no one Knows the day or the hour no, not the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. So, I'm good with that. I think it's just the final coming - period. And that Christians may have to endure some terrible things, as we did before. God promises He won't allow us to be tempted above our ability to endure it.❤
Never knew there were so many scenarios. Seems I was Amillenial for 62 yrs. and did not know it. Now, two yrs. after mandates took our careers, I have changed my eschatology and also some other views in my life. Yes, filtering in Bible study has a major impact on your views, but so does personal experience and timing. There will be many arguments in favour of certain views or not. We are still human; we will differ on interpretation. We will even differ with our own opinion should we experience influence(s) that influence our thinking! My big jump came as stated - started with Covid lockdowns and got turbo-boosted with mandates. I have lost connection with many people, not just ex. colleagues of 24 years. I believe the Lord has moved my life on to a different lane and rapture has become extremely valuable now that I have time to actually study scripture. Pre-trib view is apparent to me now as scripturally correct with the new filter I have been blessed with. Now I can get on with what is truly important; standing still, looking up to Jesus and seeing the salvation of the Lord! Maranatha!
@@MeanBeanComedy I concede there is a possibility that am wrong, but you do not. So, what are you afraid of, because I am willing to stake my life on my belief of the pre-trib rapture. God has changed my understanding; I did not go looking for a new prophecy on eschatology. Yet you are the one who cannot concede; will not concede because I believe you are willfully ignorant, and I pray your lack of scriptural doctrine and your biblical hermeneutics will be altered to see that the time is almost gone. The time of the Gentiles came to an end when I was a young man and I did not put time, prayer and effort as I should have to even come close to being exposed to truth of our times. I had to just about lose everything before I was able to hear what the Lord was trying to show me. So, if this is a joke or you think meanbeancomedy allows you privileges that surmount to transferring your fears onto others, good luck. Otherwise if you are insecure but in earnest about doctrinal truths, you will do your own homework (more than 500 hrs) and discover what many are today, these last final days before we are taken up into the clouds as scripture says. Even 5 hrs research will make a difference. Stop being lazy and read your Bible! Maranatha!
@@FearNot_StandStill How are you staking your life on this? I'm not staking my life on anything; I'm just living out Historic Apostolic Christianity like my elder brothers and sisters in the Church. There's no staking anything on any of this here unless you're withdrawing from the world and becoming pietist due to your Dispensationalism.
@user-qi4qc5wl6b agree whole heartedly. Israel coming into the land is not some random coincidence. This is the 2nd time. They can't sit at the head of nations unless they exist.
Everyone and I mean EVERYONE does not take into account the Thunders in Revelation. John was commanded not to list them. But they are just as important as the seals, trumpets and bowls.
Yes .. so I did a word study. In revelation it says that the meanings of the thunders was sealed. We are not given an explanation. Revelation 10: 2-4 KJV 2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, 3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. 4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. To research "thunder" and "thunders" I looked up every time the words were used in the KJV bible using the BLB Blue Letter Bible app. Its was exciting to read and consider what I found. The word "thunder" appears 19 times in the KJV bible. The word "thunders" appears 6 times in the KJV bible. ( thunder is associated with sound, power, judgement and many times anger. ) In Greek, Aramaic, and, Hebrew, thunder often regarded as the voice of God (Job 37:2; Psalm 18:13; 81:7; compare John 12:29) More examples: 2 Samuel 22:14 The Lord thundered from heaven; the voice of the Most High resounded. In Exodus 19:16 Thunder accompanied the giving of the law to Moses at Sinai. Job 37:5 God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend. Psalm 29:1 The voice of the LORD is over the waters; the God of glory thunders, the LORD thunders over the mighty waters. The voice of the LORD is powerful; the voice of the LORD is majestic. The voice of the LORD breaks the cedars; the LORD breaks in pieces the cedars of Lebanon.
Almighty God chose not to reveal the content. That's good enough for me. I plan to go vertical before His terrible, righteous wrath comes down. Got Jesus ? Time is short 🌷
My friend was fond of saying (with regards to eschatology) that he was a “pan-theorist” as in “everything will pan out in the end, so the details don’t matter”.
The details definitely matter. If you think the world is meant to get worse and worse until Jesus pulls you off the planet while he destroys it, you're more likely to withdraw from society and _let_ everything get worse. If you think the world will get better and better as we Christianise the entire planet before Christ's triumphant return, you'll likely be more willing to get involved making that so. It's a huge deal.
@@MeanBeanComedy That first assumption is a non sequitur because it assumes motives. One can believe the world will get worse without withdrawing from it precisely because we don’t know when Christ will return, and so we continue to occupy till He returns (and by “occupy” I mean one will do all one can to maximize good and minimize evil). Moreover, those who assume the world will get better are just as likely to withdraw from society under the assumption that it will get better regardless of how little one does. To be clear, I’m not claiming this to be the case, but only noting that if one makes assumptions about the motivations of others, one can draw any conclusion one wishes.
Also, it occurs to me that Satan is real focused on muddying the waters of this subject. A Blessed Hope must anger him a lot....he KNOWS this Hope means his time is about to end Praise GOD
Child of God. Whenever Jesus returns, we are to set our faces like flint and with the Holy Spirits help, be overcomers of all that this world throws at us. May He bless you and keep you.😊
The details definitely matter. If you think the world is meant to get worse and worse until Jesus pulls you off the planet while he destroys it, you're more likely to withdraw from society and _let_ everything get worse. If you think the world will get better and better as we Christianise the entire planet before Christ's triumphant return, you'll likely be more willing to get involved making that so. It's a huge deal.
8 місяців тому+9
I understand too little from the Bible. I leave the doctrinal conflicts to the experts. Absolutely great methodology that of doctor Heiser.
You shouldn’t. Its your duty to search for these answers, to study for them. Don’t be intellectually and spiritually lazy. I used to be a pre-trib dispensationalist and after studying it for myself and chewing on the arguments made for post-trib I noticed that my faith has been more steadfast. Knowing that one day I will be hunted down to the point of death made me add weight to my belief. Would you die for what you believe in? Its easy to believe when you believe you conveniently get taken out of the hard part.
As Mike has said many times, you have the splitters and the joiners, but you also have (in prophecy) the already, but not yet. There are things in eschatology and prophecy that are not meant to be understood until the right time.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Romans 5:6-11 We are waiting the return in service of our Glorious Bridegroom ❤❤❤❤ I pray the world will as Jesus said...be known by our love for each other. Division and discord is not of the body of Christ. Put it far from us.
@@kristenspencer9751Yeah, but most of this, "Oh dear, please stop arguing!!1" is coming from old ladies that don't understand how men debate, argue, and communicate. Very few people are actually breaking fellowship over these debates. It is more likely to bring people together.
So true Brother, it’s not complicated. We are to follow Jesus and do Life thru Him who knows we have so much live and learn from Him. He forgave the thief at the Cross who said “truly you are the Son of God.”
There are things that we do need to know. There are things that we don't need to know. What we must worry about is how we take those things to heart and how we obey the things in the first category.
Two points: Firstly, the entire church can be taken prior to experiencing wrath, yet every person saved during that wrath is added to the church (Revelation 12:11 & Revelation 20:4). Secondly, WHEN can be determined by realizing the rapture is connected to a resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Isaiah 26:19-21 teaches of a resurrection of singing (ie - joy & worship) that takes place *_before_* the indignation of the LORD is poured out on the inhabitants of the earth!!! Before the indignation is pour out. That resurrection is followed by an invitation to his people to “come” and shelter themselves in their chambers until the indignation is past. This resurrection is the key to determining when the rapture occurs.
I dont believe in the rapture. When the Lord returns we who are alive will be changed. The dead will be raised. Its called the resurrection. He will reign on earth forever. Eden restored. No more death, sorrow or suffereing. Praise Him forever.
It would be valuable to reexamine this topic with an emphasis on the events that occurred before, led up to, and included the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Josephus provides fascinating insights from this era that some might interpret as fulfilling end-time prophecies. Furthermore, a compelling argument exists that none of the 83 individuals named in the New Testament wrote any texts after the 70 AD destruction. Delving into this perspective could greatly enhance the discussion.
None of us really know. Obviously, based on the coming outpouring of Gods wrath in the tribulation period, I hope and pray the pre tribulation prediction is correct. However, it is most important that we surrender to our Lord and follow Him daily by staying in His Word. This is so we are strong in the Lord no matter what happens or when the rapture occurs.
I was questioning myself if my view of the return of Christ is not what I was thinking of ; Do I still believe he’s coming or will I loose my faith? I have to accept that I have to trust the Lord, still keep believing and adjust to whatever situation cause He loves us no matter how the things will develop. I HAVE Change some of my views and looking through scripture to let it says what is says and not what I would like it to say
Pre-wrath doesn’t have the church removed before the tribulation, just before the wrath is poured out. The wrath is everything that happens in the Day of the Lord, so to take a pre-wrath position just aligns with 1st Thess 4:13 onwards. Wrath and tribulation are not the same thing. Wrath and great tribulation are not the same thing. 1st Thess 5:1-10 shows us that the “Day of the Lord” is when the wrath of God is poured out, but we are not appointed to it
I was glad to see Pre-Wrath mentioned. The Church is exempt from wrath. We are not exempt from natural disaster, war, plague, famine, and especially not exempt from persecution.
The Israelites lived safely and securely behind their blood covered doorposts during the 10th plague, just prior to The Exodus. For that matter they were totally unaffected by the 7 last plagues. No reason God’s people won’t do as well at the end of this world.
The Day of the Lord, the Tribulation, The Time of Jacob's trouble...they are ALL the same thing. They are the seven year period described in Daniel. The only difference between them is that the Time of Jacob's Trouble, and the Day of the Lord apply only to Israel and constitute the second half of the seven week period. We know the Tribulation is the WRATH of God right from it's start because even the Christ rejectors hiding in the caves and mountains as described in Revelation ch 6 , say it is the WRATH of God. People make the mistake of equating the scriptures that only apply to Israel , to the church. This is the mistake that people have made with Mathew ch 24 which is clearly is about Israel, not the church.
@@lauriesue2244. Those who accept Jesus after the Rapture will be the Tribulation Saints who are beheaded by the anti Christ, also any Jews they find. The Tribulation is about Jesus revealing Himself to the Jews who will call His name and then Jesus will come back to stand on the Mt of Olives in Jerusalem to destroy the Armies surrounding Israel. The Church has been in heaven for the marriage Supper of the Lamb to the Church, the Bride for the 7 yr Tribulation . We who were Raptured are God’s Saints, in white linen, who come back to earth with Jesus to witness Jesus reclaiming Israel and His throne in Israel as King of Kings and Lord of Lords for a thousand years. There will be mortals who are alive, who survive and we are in our immortal bodies but Jesus is establishing His kingdom then. In those thousand years, much will be happening in all of God’s Creation.
This man is further exploring the heavens as he is now with the Father. He taught and shared the Bible with so many! Wonder what his assignment will be ? Will be interesting to find out! God Bless
Everyone always makes the parable of the 10 virgins about the oil and about some leaving to go buy more and therefore missing out on going in with the others and the Groom, but usually the teachers leave out the main point, they are waiting for the Groom to come and for the wedding feast to begin - which by tradition always occurred when darkness was all around, *_needing their lamps to see what was happening and where they were going._* I've often wondered about the meaning of that parable and how it possibly applies to the Church and to me, but after listening to so many teachers trying their best to stretch the word and force their various meanings onto Scripture, I no longer wonder about it, except perhaps those who have decided they will not be harpazo'd before the week of the outpouring of God's wrath, who just may be allowed to stay right where they have taught and chosen to believe they will be, - right here on earth calling up after those taken to be let in. Makes one wonder. *_"Before The Wrath"_* - watch that documentary for a better option.
The speaker said we can’t call being caught up the blessed hope if it happens after the tribulation why not I believe It’s a blessed hope to know we will be gathered to the Lord even if it’s after the tribulation
@@paulgerhardt6499 Are we not promised salvation by grace through faith? (Ephesians 2:8-9). If the Lord promises, He delivers. Therefore that's what we have to look forward to. I'm explaining it to you in a grammatical sense for @LastFellowship's reply to your original comment. Hope would not be the right word to use from a linguistic stand point when referring to the salvation that the Lord promised to those who have faith in Him and what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross. Does that make more sense now or where you intentionally just being snarky just for the sake of it?
@@SavedbyGraceAlone84 not sure how that shows we will be raptured ect your just deducting from the verses in the Bible to make it says things that you interpret but if you inductively study the verses you will not find a pre trib rapture as the blessed hope inductive study/breaking down each verse word by word and in the context will allow you to see clearly what is being said deductive study is how cults start Mormons Jehovah’s Witness ect
The chapters 1-3 about the church do not mention any of the disasters in 4-18, and vice versa. That is remarkable. The observation is independent of any linearity issue, since it is a thematic issue.
The problem with rapture interpretation is believers think there is just one and try to pigeon hole it as a singular event when scripture mentions it in multiple places at multiple times. First was Enoch, then Elijah (potential 2 witnesses), then Jesus and the saints seen walking the holy city in Matt 27:52, then the Church, 2 witnesses, the 144K Israelites (the man-child of Revelation 12), End of Trib saints (Rev 14:15-16) and finally the Tribulation Saints in Rev 20:4 which concludes the first resurrection. Its linear and makes perfect sense.
Many denominations consider rapture theology unscriptural. There is 1 return of Christ period. The early church did not have a split view of His return. John Nelson Darby and Scofield created a construct called Dispensationalism in late 1800s . It's always good to know the foundations of belief.
The rapture was taught by Paul and John and Christ and poly carp and iraneus. Read the didache. It way before Darby and others. Puritan writers were well before Darby as well. You are speaking nonsense
No. Read Iranaeus, Against Heresies, book 5, chapter 30 on till the end. Very clear he spoke of the church leaving and then the tribulation. @MeanBeanComedy
I have come to a partial preterist view on that. It all comes down to what date a scholar says the book of revelation was written. If pre 70 a.d., then most of Matt 24 happened when Rome sacked Jerusalem (putting an end to sacrifices etc as Jesus said, it ended the Temple system completely and it hasn't been in place since) if after, some say 90 a.d., then that would make the whole rapture this and that seem plausible. But each of us needs to study that all out. A book that helped me was "Victorious Eschatology" by Dr.s Eberle and Trench
@@danettecross8608 the event in which the temple was defiled was before the time of Christ. The historical character who committed the atrocity is Antiochus IV Epiphanes. He goes into the Holy of Holies and sacrifices a pig (so the story goes). It's a pre-curser/type and shadow thing. Rather, I think Satan had his timing off. The first time Satan attempted a one world order was at the tower of Babel. God intervened b/c not yet God's timing. Next, Satan got it wrong again by defiling the temple (thinking he was fulfilling the Daniel prophecy). The actions of Antiochus (Anti-Ochus...the name even sounds like anti-christ) were inspired by Satan. But his timing was again in vain. So I don't believe the Daniel event has occurred yet. With no temple, there can be no sacrifice. But I think the temple will be rebuilt perhaps during the first part of the great Trib after the anti-Christ has come on the scene and proclaims a 7 year peace treaty for Israel. With peace (not war with neighbor countries) they will be able to devote 100% attention and funding towards the temple. Then, with the temple constructed, the AC will declare himself to be god. Of course, it's all very interesting and glad folks are at least discussing it. Nothing wrong with a good discussion!
@@Tdizzle7775 Well, not all theologians believe that. And actually, you have no solid proof that it was or there would not be a very robust discussion going on about it. Pray over it and have your own conviction. I have mine.
Sometimes, we need to rethink we know what we think we know about the bible. We need to slow down and ask if we putting to much authority into our tradition and assumptions rather than the actual scripture
30:12 Not all Saints are those made during the Church Age. There will be Tribulation Saints, also. Those Old Testament believers in the (promised) Messiah are also to be considered Saints. A ''saint'' is one who has been saved, due to their acceptance of Christ.
Signs are key. Another word for signs is prophecy. There can be no unfulfilled prophecy before the Rapture. This requirement should inform your attitude towards imminency.
Yes there can, the marriage supper is after the rapture (for modern dispensationists) therefore it's unfulfilled prophecy when the rapture occurs. There is quite a lot of prophecy unfulfilled at the time of the rapture.
I don't see how people can deny that Antiochus Epiphanies instituted the first abomination of desolation mentioned in Daniel. And almost as strongly as that seems obvious, that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 a.d. wasn't the second
The Lord Jesus spoke of the abomination that makes desolate correct? Mathew 24 15. It will occur again. The Jews will rebuild the temple and he will sacrifice in the Holy place
God has recently brought to my attention that in Mathew ch 24 when Jesus said "Unless those days had been shortened even the elect wouldn't survive, He was referring to Zechariah 13:8-9 which says ... " In the whole land" declares the Lord, "two thirds will be struck down and perish ; yet one third will be left in it. This third I will bring into the fire ; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold." This one third is the "elect" that Jesus was talking about. Zechariah is the OT version of Revelation except it's all about what happens to Israel. But all of Mathew ch 24 is about what will happen to Israel. That's why Jesus started His answer to the question of what is the sign of the end, with the "abomination of desolation" and even mentions Daniel...as you aptly brought up.
The details of eschatology definitely matter here. If you think the world is meant to get worse and worse until Jesus pulls you off the planet while he destroys it, you're more likely to withdraw from society and _let_ everything get worse. If you think the world will get better and better as we Christianise the entire planet before Christ's triumphant return, you'll likely be more willing to get involved making that so. It's a huge deal.
Are "saints" only in the "ecclesia" or are they also in the redeemed of Israel i.e. the 144,000 in Revelation? The simple meaning of "saint" is one who is set apart.
Saints is a word that is used to represent the word "holy ones" in Greek (Agioi). Its not a very meaningful translation of the word - it obscures it rather than makes it clear.
@@LastFellowship, Being that we are looking at Revelation, don't you think that the Hebrew meaning is more appropriate קֹדֶשׁ which does strongly lean to apart or separate. It is used extensively throughout the OT. John's gospel and Revelation are very Hebrew in character and again, as Heiser points out chapters 4-18 of Revelation are almost exclusively focused on Israel.
@@Saratogan Only one Gospel: The Gospel of Reconciliation. Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself. We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness. If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever. Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods). REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
The rapture is unavoidably linked to the resurrection of the dead in Christ (It happens first) and then all go into the Millennium with the Lord. 2 Thes. 2 tells you when it happens: On the DAY of the Lord. Then he says that DAY will not come until the apostasia and the man of sin is revealed via the abomination. Revelation tells us when the Day of the Lord begins. 7th Trumpet (the last one) when, "the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of God and His Christ. ... For you have taken your great power and BEGUN to reign". THEN God's wrath is poured out via the bowl judgements as Messiah wages a bloody conquest, liberating captive Jews that look upon Him whom they pierced.
The "Christ" that indwells us is the word of God. Hos 6:3 John 8:31, & 47 Matt 7:23 2Tim 3:15This is the "personal relationship" being attatched to the "true vine" ❤❤❤DOVE POINT BIBLE STUDY❤❤❤
Pre-wrath does not separate the rapture from the second coming. Here is a place where we must define our terms. The Greek translated coming is parousia. Literally "presence" or "coming and continued presence." His "coming" initiates a series of events. The sealing of the 144K, the rapture, His wrath being poured out, His return the rest of the way to set foot on earth for the battle of Armageddon and to set up His kingdom on earth for the millennium. Here is where I, interject I guess, something I never heard dear brother Marv or anyone since speak to. If you read through the 6th seal you see the heaven depart as a scroll when it is rolled together and then those who are going to be "left" saying hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne. (The church will be looking up with the occurrence of the cosmic disturbances of vs 12-13 for our redemption draweth nigh.) His, and then our, presence will be seen in the throne room while His wrath is being poured out. The only thing we know about how long that takes is the 5th (if memory serves) trumpet that lasts 5 months.
I love Heiser but he was a text nerd, not a theologian. Dr. Ken Johnson is both, and recognizes the necessity of the pre-Daniel’s 70th Week-Departure of the Church
Joseph and his son Manasseh are in the revelation Israel tribes list - this is probably because Joseph was given a double portion by God. It also means that Ephraim is not in the list (Joseph's other son), being replaced by his father Joseph.
Generally Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, Methodists, and some Baptists believe in amillennialism or post-millennialism. Most Evangelicals, usually Non-Denom or Baptists, believe in premillennialism. Once you look at it like that, it changes things. Same for infant Baptism and the presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
@ 27:00 Church in Heaven or on earth? Rev 4. I believe the reason we read about Saints (genuine believers) being on the earth is b/c these are the ones who come to faith AFTER the rapture. God sends 2 witnesses to earth and they preach for 3.5 years until they are killed. In the Book of Rev., John "sees" billions of people in white robes and asks "Who are they?" John is told they are the saints who died during the tribulation. The Bible speaks of those on the earth who do NOT take the mark of the beast. Those are hunted down and slain. Don't you think it's a marvelous show of God's goodness and mercy that He cares about people still on the earth after the rapture? For God so loved the WORLD. And even though the world is without the presence of the church...the technology we have today ensures that although the witnesses are in Jerusalem, the whole world can watch and listen to these two figures preach the Gospel of Christ. And they will be successful in reaching both Jews and non-Jews alike.
Unfortunately the questions asked in all 4 parts of this series cannot be heard. They are usually the best part of a lecture. I guess there is no way that the owners of these recordings could use equipment to hear the questions and then caption them on the video while they r being asked? I tried to use the CC on UA-cam but it cannot decipher either. If this were possible I know it would take some work to do it but it would be majorly appreciated and we could learn more.
A chart -- yay! Now if the chart had links to how the various verses are treated it would be great! Heh -- one of my grad school profs said 90% of all theology rests on prepositions. I encountered the position that the church is removed at the start of the tribulation and the saints referred to after that are people who come to Christ during the tribulation. BTW, where does it say there is a specific Antichrist? That's another invention. Also, it should have been pointed out that the Rapture idea is a recent invention historically.
Well thinking about it, if you were not all in in belief then tribulations occurs including taking the true believers wouldn’t some that were wushu wouldn’t they commit all the way even after the tribulation and therefore have to endure until their death. Just thinking😊
If the educated Jews missed Jesus coming on the donkey - how much more should we get closer to Jesus so we don’t miss the truth and get deceived - the owner who went away and gave his employees charge is very sobering - so many comments I read especially from the US always focus on getting out of here rather than Jesus wanting to reclaim the earth
Jesus is the one who defines "The Great Tribulation" as the last half of Daniel's seventieth week. It's a 3 1/2 year period of time. Why not use specificity when talking about these things?
Jesus himself in the book of revelations states twice in a row that the seals are part of the wrath of God. Therefore the great tribulation includes the 21 judgments of seals, trumpets and bowls. And if the antichrist has to be present during the first half of the week to give rise to the abomination of desolation, that indicates that the great tribulation is made up of a period of 7 years. That Jesus refers to that moment in Matthew 24 as "tribulation such as has never existed on earth" is because God's most severe judgments on a geological level will come at that time and because during those 3 and a half years Satan will manifest himself without any restriction. . But that does not mean that the great tribulation will last 3 and a half years....Prophecy must be analyzed taking into account the complete map that the Word of God reveals to us. We should not draw conclusions from an isolated verse.
@@trevortoews9850 he was his own brand of amillenialism he didn't think a rapture was taught in scripture. He believed Jesus was coming back to earth in his body, he believed Jesus would set up a kingdom on earth. He believed the church was the new Israel but the earthly Israel was still in God's plan. was He was willing to consider any position, as long as the text could sustain it. He also recognised the text is vague and hard to define a clear view on escatology without making some pretty substantial assumptions and guesses.
Rev 1:9 "I, John, your brother and partner in 👉"THE TRIBULATION"👈 and kingdom and perseverance that are in Jesus, ..." John was not just using a general view of tribulation, but he rather used the definite article = [THE] Tribulation! And he said HE along with the other saints IN HIS TIME, were already partaking in this event!🤔
@@ShadowofTheAlmighty here is the Greek. Ἐγὼ Ἰωάννης, ὁ ἀδελφὸς ὑμῶν καὶ συνκοινωνὸς 5 ἐν τῇ θλίψει καὶ βασιλεία καὶ ὑπομονῇ ἐν 6 Ἰησοῦ, ἐγενόμην ἐν τῇ νήσῳ τῇ καλουμένῃ Πάτμῳ διὰ τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ 7 τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ Now that word θλίψει you are adding in your own meaning. It means pressure affliction oppression - but you have imported a theological concept into that word. Throughout the ot Hebrew Satan is never mentioned it's always "the accuser" and the definite article means anyone can be in that role. You say the tribulation or the oppression should be considered as The Tribulation. Not the oppression or the pressure that the church is specifically told it will have to endure in this world. You elevate it to a finite defined term rather than a generalised reoccuring and increasing process the church will go through as it's on the Earth. You don't understand the argument or the issue - you are just doubling down on a conclusion you were taught.
Im no Theologin, expert. I have made an attempt to try to understand what is arguably the most "controversial" book in History. I dont feel confident I have much right, I do however understand the basic premise. I have opinions, thats all, and I know this is a much debated topic, but I just dont see what some claim to in scriptures. For example, Revelation 20. It talks about all the souls. Those that were martyred, and 2nd death has no power, and the rest sleep until the 1000 years is over. Why no mention of those "snatched away"? Surely, if you are so good, God just takes you, you would get the reward of reigning with him the 1000 years, like those beheaded for his name, but it isnt mentioned? I wonder why?
Ambiguities in Mathew ch 24??? . The whole chapter is about what will happen to ISRAEL, not the church. Look at the context. Jesus is taking questions from His jewish disciples about JEWISH things, namely what will happen to Israel. Notice all the "jewish only" references Jesus uses to answer their question "What will be the sign of the end and of your coming" ....the references are, "the abomination of desolation"..."the temple"..."the sabbath"..."the rooftops"..."the Judean countryside" ..." the elect"...and perhaps even the fig tree. Regarding "the elect" , Jesus also said "Unless those days had been shortened even the elect wouldn't survive". Who are this "elect " that Jesus was talking about? We find the answer in Zechariah 13:8-9 which says... " In the whole land" declares the Lord, "two thirds will be struck down and perish ; yet one third will be left in it. This third I will bring into the fire ; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold." This renders Mathew ch 24 useless for supporting a post - trib rapture, but does support a pre-trib rapture.
Thank to Mike, who I deeply revere, he took the pain to precisely lay out the logical connexion of these different approaches. But there is a much shorter way of clarification that just arose more and more in the last year. All these endtime schemes are based on the idea of a clear differentiation between the "church" and "israel", which is a dispensations presupposition. Now if we realize that Christ has only ONE body - as clearly stated not only in Ephesians - that the mystery of god was to make one out of the two, namely Israel AND the gentiles, we must accept that god has not two ways of salvation, i.e. for the church separately from Israel - as dispensationalism teaches. So there is no theological ground for constructing a different eschatology for the "church" separate from Israel. Hence a protein rapture before the tribulation for Israel has no theological reasoning anymore. But the thing is that many eschatological teachers are not aware of this heretical basis (Dispensationalism). Actually there is no hermeneutical reason at all to split up the 490 years of Daniel and project one week (7 years) into the far future. Also there is no real argument of not following anymore the protestant interpretation of the Antichrist (Luther, Calvin, Guys etc.) instead of waiting for someone new worldruler to come in a newly built temple. I'm missing the historical approach to eschatology. It's all like inventing the wheel anew. And to close with an important thought of Mike: you cannot possibly understand, interpret revelation without profound understanding the OT and it's allusions to it.
Making one new man out of the two is YOUR CONDITION. You are a fallen angel yoked with a demon. Until your eyes become single (Christ only), your judgment to die like men continues. Only one Gospel: The Gospel of Reconciliation. Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself. We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness. If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever. Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods). REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
So just to mention ( because it makes sense to me ) the 4 gospels ( written by 4 different persons ) cannot be the same as 1 revelation ( written by 1 person) SO... it ( revelation ) is not 4 people seeing the same thing and expressing it somewhat differently. It is ONLY 1 person seeing the event . SO ...again 1 is not the same as 4 . !!
In most of these questions that divide people, there is a central fact - believing one thing or another changes nothing about one's central faith. The Trinity concept is yet another of these uselessly divisive beliefs. These questions have no impact on your faith whatsoever, but many of them presume that you can fathom God, and what exactly he is, which is pure folly in its very essence.
So many differing opinions indicates to me that no one really knows and that they have their fav theory, whether it is based upon Scripture that records the Words of Jesus or of those of Paul or others. Truth is....we don't know but we can sure to talk it to death. For what little I know or understand about all of this, I'll lean on the Lord's words in Matt 24:29-31 and simply not worry about it.
It’s your Faith that saves you. So believe what is written with Faith so then it’s very clear you will see. The tribulation is just like Daniel heard from the Angel of God. It’s all right there in sequence. God is not the author of confusion so don’t doubt what He is telling us through His Word. Don’t be confused by tearing everything apart making sure you are perfectly right because it’s all written and it falls together. Understand the whole plan of God as it is all written. The Rapture is a resurrection when the bodies rise from the grave and rise also those living will change in the twinkling of an eye into the immortal body.
Because they're the most biblicaly confirmed and supported view, but if he said that, most Christians would call him a heretic and ignore everything else he has ever said.
Every time I hear someone promoting the rapture position and its elements, I think of the pharisees and the like who were in the midst of the Messiah and refused to believe him. Jesus gave spot on prophecies on what happened and so many to still refuse to believe historical truth, and for what?
When did he give this talk? I ask because of the "All rapture positions assume" in the thumbnail. Um no, no they don't. The rapture occurs at His coming. Parousia in the Greek. Literally presence or coming and continued presence. While His Day of the Lord wrath is being poured out, that presence, along with His church, will be in the clouds, overseeing. This occurs at some point during the 2nd half of Daniel's 70th week. After the 7th vial (bowl) is poured out, Christ comes the rest of the way down to earth with His church for the battle of Armageddon then to set up His millennial reign. See the Pre-wrath view in "7 Pre-trib Problems and the Pre-wrath Rapture" available on this site. It's been out there for over 30 years people.
I agree but to think the AntiChrist has not already been identified is to believe that God put a 2000 year time gap in a 490 year prophecy when the Catholic church claims that God put a 2000 year time gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel. How freaking absurd.
@@LastFellowship Ill change my view when someone presents an interpretation that makes more sense on the available evidence, to believe your bs means you believe the Pope has serious authority, thats how they made the claim to change it in the first place just like how they removed the 2nd amendment. Men and their traditions are always their downfall, I was agnostic and about a year before covid GOd made me think of him. Has he spoken to me, nah, I have never heard his voice but I know he gave me the truth and until I see something that makes more sense well puhlease believe the antichrist if you want, for that is who the pope is
Maybe the sign in the sky of the Son of Man was the sign observed by Constantine, and Christ's coming started unfolding into cultivating the world for centries Maybe that's just what God used like He did with Cyrus??
The reason the "church" is not mentioned after revelation 4 is because the Letter is TO the churches. It's like writing a letter and you keep repeating the name of the person you're writing to. You don't do that. You address them, then write your letter.
👍 Also it does not use/mention the word church (ekklesia) when referring to the believers who are in heaven in those chapters either but they are the saints the church
Maaaaan, 'THE CHURCH' is actually BELIEVING JEWS-----At MtSinai GOSPEL was preached oer HEBREWS 4:2, and it failed. However! Yeshua said through his prophets that HE will change their hearts and write HIS Yorah onto their hearts, so no longer on heavy tablets dragged behind ---JEREMIAH 31:33 and EZEKIEL 36:26 At second Pentecost, HIS Spirit was given again (just like at MtSinai per ISAIAH 63:11) and this time HIS Jewish Bride =EDAH became empowered. Anyone from tbe nations joining believing Jews become grafted. Rapture will be on YomTeruah, fall season one year. Then 10 days of Awe untill YomKippur, HIS wrath will be relentless and then HIS arrival back for Sukkot as the King first, and priest subsequently.
Post rapture revival, the 144.000 sealed on the forehead proclaim the gospel and new believers will be made. That's my best explanation from a premil position. God bless.
In the old Testament there are saints. These are old Testament saints. In the new Testament saints are the church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. But Revelation , except for the letters to the church's, is an old Testament book. The saints are the Jews.
The issue with comparing Apostle James' reference to a translation of the Masoretic goes away if you go to the Septuagint. Nevertheless, "tabernacle" is succoth- sheep fold. David was the shepherd of Israel.
First of all, you're only going to understand the rapture if you use the only Bible that contains the truth, the KJV Bible. 1 Thessalonians 4 :16-17 clearly state we're caught up at the last trump. That means the church goes through the seven seals and seven trumpets. Wrath begins at the pouring out of the vials of God's wrath.
If the word ekklesia /church not being used in those chapters 4-18 means the church is absent on earth then then that would mean ekklesia not being used to describe belivers in means the church is absent from heaven in those chapters too using that reasoning I believe The saints on earth and in heaven in those chapters are part of the church is a more clear interpretation
If I'm not mistaken, in Rev, John sees saints but believers are also called "Bride", ("The Spirit and the bride say 'come!') so in this NEW realm, the concept of "church" would be irrelevant (?) I think what folks forget is that removing believers from the earth is part of God's wrath. I mean, can you imagine a world without the Christian influence? Integrity, love, patience, justice...not to mention no outreaches (soup kitchens, drug rehab, charity etc.) and all the talent and occupations suddenly un-filled would bring chaos! So I don't view it at all as "escapism" and neither did the Apostle Paul! Paul believed and wrote about believers snatched away from the earth before the coming of the A.C. yet he was frantic for 2 things: 1) get people saved 2) get believers fully mature in the faith before Christ returned.
@@2drsdan you ignore the meaning of generation Meaning of This Generation - Option 1 The Greek word that is translated as “generation” in Matthew 24:34 is genea. This word means more than just “generation.” It has the idea of birth, descent, descendants, family, and race. It was even used to refer to the end times.[1]
@@donhaddix3770 Ephesians 3:21 IT NEVER ENDS > > > EVER BUT back to the verse in question, here in 34 this generation was standing right in front of Jesus while He was talking AND referring to the disciples that THEY "the disciples" would live to see the Romans destroy Jerusalem and they did. Just go ask Jesus yourself if this is true or not. Rapture Theory = the church of no effect.
@@donhaddix3770 What you gave was the wrong choice among the few Greek words that Greeks use for many different occasions and uses. BUT this use is, in context, about the SUBJECT in the sentence and indeed THE WHOLE CHAPTER which is the destruction of the Temple which they had just come away from. Which was destroyed by the Romans in 70AD, fulfilling Jesus' prophecy that He states here. Why do you hold to a false teaching that dates back only to our Civil War era? Darby and Scofield were jerks that subverted the meanings of these scriptures through the commentaries in the backs and margins of their Bibles which were then picked up by DL Moody and spread across America. LIES ALL. Have you gone to Jesus and asked Him what is the truth here? I didn't think so. Could you do it, pray and ask? The Truth will free you.
@@johnchamberlain9775 HOW WOULD IT BE IF WE ALL YELLED AT EACH OTHER IN NORMAL CONVERSATION? IT WOULD JUST BE ANNOYING - MUCH LIKE PEOPLE WHO WRITE ALL IN CAPS.
In Gulliver's Travels the Lilliputians are divided by those called the big ender's and the small ender's. Dr Heiser is not trying to make you one or the other, he is trying to stop people going to war over it.
I used to hold on to the classic dispensationalism, but here, later in life after decades of study have come down to the resurrection and not a rapture theology. And I also can't get my eyes off of what happened in 70 a.d., and how much of Matt 24 matches those events very clearly. But the bottom line for me is this: God loves us. And I don't believe God is a sadist. We were not made for wrath. But I also know we are warned over and over to be ready. Every human that has ever lived, or is alive at His return will be judged on the great day of judgement. That much we do know, and that is what you need to prepare for. Keep your lamps full.
@@achoice2bmade You were correct, but weak faith in the truth changed you. Some preterist got to you.
ua-cam.com/video/rK5V-LSvO3g/v-deo.htmlsi=W4XjZdvP6XngHyxp
ua-cam.com/video/rK5V-LSvO3g/v-deo.htmlsi=W4XjZdvP6XngHyxp
@achoice2bmade Were not meant for the second death .
Not appointed to wrath?
You are a fallen angel that was judged to die like men.
You wanted Satan's flesh party, you got it. It's your convenant with death.
Only one Gospel:
The Gospel of Reconciliation.
Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom
to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself.
We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness.
If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever.
Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods).
REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
I was once where you were and now where you are. Scriptures interpret Scriptures. That's why I'm a partial - preterist.. I've held this view for many years.
We're here 'til we ain't. Thank God for each and every day.
Wow, I sure miss Dr. Heiser. And I’m also so so grateful we are not saved by our eschatology.
And Heiser has the "good fortune " of knowing now.
@@kleineroteHex indeed he does.
Not saved by eschatology is good thing, because he was completely off. Study out preterism.
@@Spirit-FilledMindset I have, my brother.
@@Spirit-FilledMindset Yeah, Preterism is great, especially Partial Preterism. I'm pretty sure he holds to that, so idk how he's wrong.
I have long ago thought that eschatology was a thing God was not displaying clearly for his own good reasons. This puts meat on the bones of my thoughts.
Only he knows that day
Keeps us humble, and watchful.
we don’t understand prophecy until after the fulfillment, and maybe not.
🤍💭 david
This was a great overview and greatly appreciated.
Thanks brother. See you in the air.
Love me some dr Mike Heiser
I just want to know the Truth. I don't care about sticking with a certain end times belief system.
I think it's not clear, therefore we may never know 100 percent. That's ok. Believers will be saved by trusting Jesus. We won't go to hell. Hallelujah! Jesus said no one Knows the day or the hour no, not the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. So, I'm good with that.
I think it's just the final coming - period. And that Christians may have to endure some terrible things, as we did before. God promises He won't allow us to be tempted above our ability to endure it.❤
Agree. I absolutely will let go of ANY belief that isn’t the truth..
I jumped off the Hal Lindsey train in the early 80’s so when Tim LaHaye came by riding the “Left Behind” train, I didn’t buy a ticket.
@@annchovey2089Smart! 😎👍🏻
The hope is NOT the rapture. The hope is the return of Christ.
Never knew there were so many scenarios. Seems I was Amillenial for 62 yrs. and did not know it. Now, two yrs. after mandates took our careers, I have changed my eschatology and also some other views in my life. Yes, filtering in Bible study has a major impact on your views, but so does personal experience and timing. There will be many arguments in favour of certain views or not. We are still human; we will differ on interpretation. We will even differ with our own opinion should we experience influence(s) that influence our thinking! My big jump came as stated - started with Covid lockdowns and got turbo-boosted with mandates. I have lost connection with many people, not just ex. colleagues of 24 years. I believe the Lord has moved my life on to a different lane and rapture has become extremely valuable now that I have time to actually study scripture. Pre-trib view is apparent to me now as scripturally correct with the new filter I have been blessed with. Now I can get on with what is truly important; standing still, looking up to Jesus and seeing the salvation of the Lord! Maranatha!
You're going to be disappointed when the invented rapture never happens and the world is gradually Christianised.
@@MeanBeanComedy I concede there is a possibility that am wrong, but you do not. So, what are you afraid of, because I am willing to stake my life on my belief of the pre-trib rapture. God has changed my understanding; I did not go looking for a new prophecy on eschatology. Yet you are the one who cannot concede; will not concede because I believe you are willfully ignorant, and I pray your lack of scriptural doctrine and your biblical hermeneutics will be altered to see that the time is almost gone. The time of the Gentiles came to an end when I was a young man and I did not put time, prayer and effort as I should have to even come close to being exposed to truth of our times. I had to just about lose everything before I was able to hear what the Lord was trying to show me. So, if this is a joke or you think meanbeancomedy allows you privileges that surmount to transferring your fears onto others, good luck. Otherwise if you are insecure but in earnest about doctrinal truths, you will do your own homework (more than 500 hrs) and discover what many are today, these last final days before we are taken up into the clouds as scripture says. Even 5 hrs research will make a difference. Stop being lazy and read your Bible! Maranatha!
@@FearNot_StandStill How are you staking your life on this? I'm not staking my life on anything; I'm just living out Historic Apostolic Christianity like my elder brothers and sisters in the Church. There's no staking anything on any of this here unless you're withdrawing from the world and becoming pietist due to your Dispensationalism.
@user-qi4qc5wl6b agree whole heartedly. Israel coming into the land is not some random coincidence.
This is the 2nd time.
They can't sit at the head of nations unless they exist.
Amen !!!!
Everyone and I mean EVERYONE does not take into account the Thunders in Revelation. John was commanded not to list them. But they are just as important as the seals, trumpets and bowls.
interesting
Yes .. so I did a word study.
In revelation it says that the meanings of the thunders was sealed. We are not given an explanation.
Revelation 10: 2-4 KJV
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
To research "thunder" and "thunders" I looked up every time the words were used in the KJV bible using the BLB Blue Letter Bible app.
Its was exciting to read and consider what I found.
The word "thunder" appears 19 times in the KJV bible.
The word "thunders" appears 6 times in the KJV bible.
( thunder is associated with sound, power, judgement and many times anger. )
In Greek, Aramaic, and, Hebrew,
thunder often regarded as the voice of God (Job 37:2; Psalm 18:13; 81:7; compare John 12:29)
More examples:
2 Samuel 22:14
The Lord thundered from heaven; the voice of the Most High resounded.
In Exodus 19:16
Thunder accompanied the giving of the law to Moses at Sinai.
Job 37:5
God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend.
Psalm 29:1
The voice of the LORD is over the waters; the God of glory thunders, the LORD thunders over the mighty waters. The voice of the LORD is powerful; the voice of the LORD is majestic. The voice of the LORD breaks the cedars; the LORD breaks in pieces the cedars of Lebanon.
Refresh my memory?
Well, I guess that would be because the Spirit doesn’t want us to take them into account - right?
Almighty God chose not to reveal the content.
That's good enough for me.
I plan to go vertical before His terrible, righteous wrath comes down.
Got Jesus ? Time is short 🌷
My friend was fond of saying (with regards to eschatology) that he was a “pan-theorist” as in “everything will pan out in the end, so the details don’t matter”.
I like him
@@FishermensCornerme too 😊
Yup, the King of kings will come when the Father tells him, when the last of the gentiles comes into the fold. Do we really have to know when? How?
The details definitely matter. If you think the world is meant to get worse and worse until Jesus pulls you off the planet while he destroys it, you're more likely to withdraw from society and _let_ everything get worse. If you think the world will get better and better as we Christianise the entire planet before Christ's triumphant return, you'll likely be more willing to get involved making that so. It's a huge deal.
@@MeanBeanComedy That first assumption is a non sequitur because it assumes motives. One can believe the world will get worse without withdrawing from it precisely because we don’t know when Christ will return, and so we continue to occupy till He returns (and by “occupy” I mean one will do all one can to maximize good and minimize evil).
Moreover, those who assume the world will get better are just as likely to withdraw from society under the assumption that it will get better regardless of how little one does. To be clear, I’m not claiming this to be the case, but only noting that if one makes assumptions about the motivations of others, one can draw any conclusion one wishes.
Really, it all comes down to trust... Will you trust God?
Is He worthy of trust?
No worries, He reigns for ever more!
I TRUST HIM
Also, it occurs to me that Satan is real focused on muddying the waters of this subject.
A Blessed Hope must anger him a lot....he KNOWS this Hope means his time is about to end
Praise GOD
Child of God.
Whenever Jesus returns, we are to set our faces like flint and with the Holy Spirits help, be overcomers of all that this world throws at us.
May He bless you and keep you.😊
The details definitely matter. If you think the world is meant to get worse and worse until Jesus pulls you off the planet while he destroys it, you're more likely to withdraw from society and _let_ everything get worse. If you think the world will get better and better as we Christianise the entire planet before Christ's triumphant return, you'll likely be more willing to get involved making that so. It's a huge deal.
I understand too little from the Bible. I leave the doctrinal conflicts to the experts. Absolutely great methodology that of doctor Heiser.
You shouldn’t. Its your duty to search for these answers, to study for them. Don’t be intellectually and spiritually lazy.
I used to be a pre-trib dispensationalist and after studying it for myself and chewing on the arguments made for post-trib I noticed that my faith has been more steadfast. Knowing that one day I will be hunted down to the point of death made me add weight to my belief. Would you die for what you believe in? Its easy to believe when you believe you conveniently get taken out of the hard part.
For the love of mercy!. Just be ready. Receive Jesus as savior before it's too late!. ❤❤
As Mike has said many times, you have the splitters and the joiners, but you also have (in prophecy) the already, but not yet. There are things in eschatology and prophecy that are not meant to be understood until the right time.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
Romans 5:6-11
We are waiting the return in service of our Glorious Bridegroom ❤❤❤❤
I pray the world will as Jesus said...be known by our love for each other.
Division and discord is not of the body of Christ. Put it far from us.
I believe there can be different views, but folks don't have to break fellowship over it. Believe me, there is controversy in the false faiths, too!
@@kristenspencer9751Yeah, but most of this, "Oh dear, please stop arguing!!1" is coming from old ladies that don't understand how men debate, argue, and communicate. Very few people are actually breaking fellowship over these debates. It is more likely to bring people together.
So true Brother, it’s not complicated. We are to follow Jesus and do Life thru Him who knows we have so much live and learn from Him. He forgave the thief at the Cross who said “truly you are the Son of God.”
There are things that we do need to know. There are things that we don't need to know. What we must worry about is how we take those things to heart and how we obey the things in the first category.
I am pro return of Jesus ❤
Two points:
Firstly, the entire church can be taken prior to experiencing wrath, yet every person saved during that wrath is added to the church (Revelation 12:11 & Revelation 20:4).
Secondly, WHEN can be determined by realizing the rapture is connected to a resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Isaiah 26:19-21 teaches of a resurrection of singing (ie - joy & worship) that takes place *_before_* the indignation of the LORD is poured out on the inhabitants of the earth!!!
Before the indignation is pour out. That resurrection is followed by an invitation to his people to “come” and shelter themselves in their chambers until the indignation is past.
This resurrection is the key to determining when the rapture occurs.
I dont believe in the rapture. When the Lord returns we who are alive will be changed. The dead will be raised. Its called the resurrection. He will reign on earth forever. Eden restored. No more death, sorrow or suffereing. Praise Him forever.
It would be valuable to reexamine this topic with an emphasis on the events that occurred before, led up to, and included the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Josephus provides fascinating insights from this era that some might interpret as fulfilling end-time prophecies. Furthermore, a compelling argument exists that none of the 83 individuals named in the New Testament wrote any texts after the 70 AD destruction. Delving into this perspective could greatly enhance the discussion.
Pretrib also uses OT stories of deliverance before chaos such as Noah and the flood, to show it is his nature..
None of us really know. Obviously, based on the coming outpouring of Gods wrath in the tribulation period, I hope and pray the pre tribulation prediction is correct. However, it is most important that we surrender to our Lord and follow Him daily by staying in His Word. This is so we are strong in the Lord no matter what happens or when the rapture occurs.
Anybody see the Messiah 2030 videos? That's my position (Parts 1 to 3). I can't speak to Part 4 yet as it hasn't come out.
Anyone who sets dates is a fool and should not be trusted.
You're really full of knowledge, I totally enjoyed the unseen realm, tell me, when was The rapture first preached?
I was questioning myself if my view of the return of Christ is not what I was thinking of ; Do I still believe he’s coming or will I loose my faith? I have to accept that I have to trust the Lord, still keep believing and adjust to whatever situation cause He loves us no matter how the things will develop. I HAVE Change some of my views and looking through scripture to let it says what is says and not what I would like it to say
Pre-wrath doesn’t have the church removed before the tribulation, just before the wrath is poured out. The wrath is everything that happens in the Day of the Lord, so to take a pre-wrath position just aligns with 1st Thess 4:13 onwards. Wrath and tribulation are not the same thing. Wrath and great tribulation are not the same thing. 1st Thess 5:1-10 shows us that the “Day of the Lord” is when the wrath of God is poured out, but we are not appointed to it
I was glad to see Pre-Wrath mentioned. The Church is exempt from wrath. We are not exempt from natural disaster, war, plague, famine, and especially not exempt from persecution.
The Israelites lived safely and securely behind their blood covered doorposts during the 10th plague, just prior to The Exodus. For that matter they were totally unaffected by the 7 last plagues. No reason God’s people won’t do as well at the end of this world.
The Day of the Lord, the Tribulation, The Time of Jacob's trouble...they are ALL the same thing. They are the seven year period described in Daniel. The only difference between them is that the Time of Jacob's Trouble, and the Day of the Lord apply only to Israel and constitute the second half of the seven week period. We know the Tribulation is the WRATH of God right from it's start because even the Christ rejectors hiding in the caves and mountains as described in Revelation ch 6 , say it is the WRATH of God. People make the mistake of equating the scriptures that only apply to Israel , to the church. This is the mistake that people have made with Mathew ch 24 which is clearly is about Israel, not the church.
@@markanthony3275 By way of suggestion you may want to examine Isaiah 46: 9~10. An extremely important point in eschatological evaluation.
@@lauriesue2244. Those who accept Jesus after the Rapture will be the Tribulation Saints who are beheaded by the anti Christ, also any Jews they find. The Tribulation is about Jesus revealing Himself to the Jews who will call His name and then Jesus will come back to stand on the Mt of Olives in Jerusalem to destroy the Armies surrounding Israel. The Church has been in heaven for the marriage Supper of the Lamb to the Church, the Bride for the 7 yr Tribulation . We who were Raptured are God’s Saints, in white linen, who come back to earth with Jesus to witness Jesus reclaiming Israel and His throne in Israel as King of Kings and Lord of Lords for a thousand years. There will be mortals who are alive, who survive and we are in our immortal bodies but Jesus is establishing His kingdom then. In those thousand years, much will be happening in all of God’s Creation.
I would have loved to talk to this guy
Mike, there is another group called the PAN -Trib(ers), whatever pans out ,we go with.👍🏻💯
This was great. Thank you
This man is further exploring the heavens as he is now with the Father. He taught and shared the Bible with so many! Wonder what his assignment will be ? Will be interesting to find out! God Bless
Everyone always makes the parable of the 10 virgins about the oil and about some leaving to go buy more and therefore missing out on going in with the others and the Groom,
but usually the teachers leave out the main point, they are waiting for the Groom to come and for the wedding feast to begin - which by tradition always occurred when darkness was all around, *_needing their lamps to see what was happening and where they were going._*
I've often wondered about the meaning of that parable and how it possibly applies to the Church and to me, but after listening to so many teachers trying their best to stretch the word and force their various meanings onto Scripture, I no longer wonder about it, except perhaps those who have decided they will not be harpazo'd before the week of the outpouring of God's wrath, who just may be allowed to stay right where they have taught and chosen to believe they will be,
- right here on earth calling up after those taken to be let in.
Makes one wonder.
*_"Before The Wrath"_* - watch that documentary for a better option.
What I find interesting is non of the bridesmaids are the bride!?!
The speaker said we can’t call being caught up the blessed hope if it happens after the tribulation why not I believe It’s a blessed hope to know we will be gathered to the Lord even if it’s after the tribulation
Hope is not the right word if it means that.
Because then it wouldn't be called the blessed hope, it would be called the blessed promise.
@@SavedbyGraceAlone84 lol ok if that’s what you think lol
@@paulgerhardt6499 Are we not promised salvation by grace through faith? (Ephesians 2:8-9). If the Lord promises, He delivers. Therefore that's what we have to look forward to. I'm explaining it to you in a grammatical sense for @LastFellowship's reply to your original comment. Hope would not be the right word to use from a linguistic stand point when referring to the salvation that the Lord promised to those who have faith in Him and what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross. Does that make more sense now or where you intentionally just being snarky just for the sake of it?
@@SavedbyGraceAlone84 not sure how that shows we will be raptured ect your just deducting from the verses in the Bible to make it says things that you interpret but if you inductively study the verses you will not find a pre trib rapture as the blessed hope inductive study/breaking down each verse word by word and in the context will allow you to see clearly what is being said deductive study is how cults start Mormons Jehovah’s Witness ect
The chapters 1-3 about the church do not mention any of the disasters in 4-18, and vice versa. That is remarkable. The observation is independent of any linearity issue, since it is a thematic issue.
The problem with rapture interpretation is believers think there is just one and try to pigeon hole it as a singular event when scripture mentions it in multiple places at multiple times. First was Enoch, then Elijah (potential 2 witnesses), then Jesus and the saints seen walking the holy city in Matt 27:52, then the Church, 2 witnesses, the 144K Israelites (the man-child of Revelation 12), End of Trib saints (Rev 14:15-16) and finally the Tribulation Saints in Rev 20:4 which concludes the first resurrection. Its linear and makes perfect sense.
Many denominations consider rapture theology unscriptural. There is 1 return of Christ period. The early church did not have a split view of His return. John Nelson Darby and Scofield created a construct called Dispensationalism in late 1800s . It's always good to know the foundations of belief.
Only English speaking countries teach the rapture.
Really? Please explain @@annchovey2089
The rapture was taught by Paul and John and Christ and poly carp and iraneus. Read the didache. It way before Darby and others. Puritan writers were well before Darby as well. You are speaking nonsense
@@Tdizzle7775That's not the rapture. That's about Christ's return. Not at all the same thing.
No. Read Iranaeus, Against Heresies, book 5, chapter 30 on till the end. Very clear he spoke of the church leaving and then the tribulation. @MeanBeanComedy
What about 1st chapter of revelation these things must shortly come to pass.
I have come to a partial preterist view on that. It all comes down to what date a scholar says the book of revelation was written. If pre 70 a.d., then most of Matt 24 happened when Rome sacked Jerusalem (putting an end to sacrifices etc as Jesus said, it ended the Temple system completely and it hasn't been in place since) if after, some say 90 a.d., then that would make the whole rapture this and that seem plausible. But each of us needs to study that all out. A book that helped me was "Victorious Eschatology" by Dr.s Eberle and Trench
@@danettecross8608 the event in which the temple was defiled was before the time of Christ. The historical character who committed the atrocity is Antiochus IV Epiphanes. He goes into the Holy of Holies and sacrifices a pig (so the story goes). It's a pre-curser/type and shadow thing. Rather, I think Satan had his timing off. The first time Satan attempted a one world order was at the tower of Babel. God intervened b/c not yet God's timing. Next, Satan got it wrong again by defiling the temple (thinking he was fulfilling the Daniel prophecy). The actions of Antiochus (Anti-Ochus...the name even sounds like anti-christ) were inspired by Satan. But his timing was again in vain. So I don't believe the Daniel event has occurred yet. With no temple, there can be no sacrifice. But I think the temple will be rebuilt perhaps during the first part of the great Trib after the anti-Christ has come on the scene and proclaims a 7 year peace treaty for Israel. With peace (not war with neighbor countries) they will be able to devote 100% attention and funding towards the temple. Then, with the temple constructed, the AC will declare himself to be god. Of course, it's all very interesting and glad folks are at least discussing it. Nothing wrong with a good discussion!
@@danettecross8608revelation was written after 70 AD so your theory fails
@@Tdizzle7775 Well, not all theologians believe that. And actually, you have no solid proof that it was or there would not be a very robust discussion going on about it. Pray over it and have your own conviction. I have mine.
Sometimes, we need to rethink we know what we think we know about the bible. We need to slow down and ask if we putting to much authority into our tradition and assumptions rather than the actual scripture
30:12 Not all Saints are those made during the Church Age. There will be Tribulation Saints, also. Those Old Testament believers in the (promised) Messiah are also to be considered Saints.
A ''saint'' is one who has been saved, due to their acceptance of Christ.
Well, after the thousand years, Satan is released for a time
and God has a reason for that. You'll see how quickly mankind abandons God and sides with his enemy.
Little season, is that now?
Satan has already been loosed
@@pastrami00Yeah, that's the more reasonable reading of the text.
What a great legacy he leaves us xx
Signs are key. Another word for signs is prophecy. There can be no unfulfilled prophecy before the Rapture. This requirement should inform your attitude towards imminency.
Yes there can, the marriage supper is after the rapture (for modern dispensationists) therefore it's unfulfilled prophecy when the rapture occurs.
There is quite a lot of prophecy unfulfilled at the time of the rapture.
No man knows - Seek ye first the kingdom of God.
Stop worrying about it.
I don't see how people can deny that Antiochus Epiphanies instituted the first abomination of desolation mentioned in Daniel. And almost as strongly as that seems obvious, that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 a.d. wasn't the second
The Lord Jesus spoke of the abomination that makes desolate correct? Mathew 24 15. It will occur again. The Jews will rebuild the temple and he will sacrifice in the Holy place
@@JonCamron it has already occurred TWICE. Once with Antiochus, and then again in A.D. 70 as Jesus predicted
God has recently brought to my attention that in Mathew ch 24 when Jesus said "Unless those days had been shortened even the elect wouldn't survive, He was referring to Zechariah 13:8-9 which says ...
" In the whole land" declares the Lord, "two thirds will be struck down and perish ; yet one third will be left in it. This third I will bring into the fire ; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold."
This one third is the "elect" that Jesus was talking about. Zechariah is the OT version of Revelation except it's all about what happens to Israel. But all of Mathew ch 24 is about what will happen to Israel. That's why Jesus started His answer to the question of what is the sign of the end, with the "abomination of desolation" and even mentions Daniel...as you aptly brought up.
The details of eschatology definitely matter here. If you think the world is meant to get worse and worse until Jesus pulls you off the planet while he destroys it, you're more likely to withdraw from society and _let_ everything get worse. If you think the world will get better and better as we Christianise the entire planet before Christ's triumphant return, you'll likely be more willing to get involved making that so. It's a huge deal.
After 2000 years it seems to me that the church has not managed to Christianise the world. The Gid of this age is still running the nations
I agree. A persons theological belief affects how they will live.
Are "saints" only in the "ecclesia" or are they also in the redeemed of Israel i.e. the 144,000 in Revelation? The simple meaning of "saint" is one who is set apart.
Saints is a word that is used to represent the word "holy ones" in Greek (Agioi).
Its not a very meaningful translation of the word - it obscures it rather than makes it clear.
@@LastFellowship, Being that we are looking at Revelation, don't you think that the Hebrew meaning is more appropriate קֹדֶשׁ which does strongly lean to apart or separate. It is used extensively throughout the OT. John's gospel and Revelation are very Hebrew in character and again, as Heiser points out chapters 4-18 of Revelation are almost exclusively focused on Israel.
@@Saratogan
Only one Gospel:
The Gospel of Reconciliation.
Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom
to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself.
We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness.
If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever.
Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods).
REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
The rapture is unavoidably linked to the resurrection of the dead in Christ (It happens first) and then all go into the Millennium with the Lord. 2 Thes. 2 tells you when it happens: On the DAY of the Lord. Then he says that DAY will not come until the apostasia and the man of sin is revealed via the abomination.
Revelation tells us when the Day of the Lord begins. 7th Trumpet (the last one) when, "the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of God and His Christ. ... For you have taken your great power and BEGUN to reign".
THEN God's wrath is poured out via the bowl judgements as Messiah wages a bloody conquest, liberating captive Jews that look upon Him whom they pierced.
aside from the text study, the stories indicate deliverance.
Somebody told me it was not preached till somebody had a dream, in the 17 or 1800
The "Christ" that indwells us is the word of God. Hos 6:3 John 8:31, & 47 Matt 7:23 2Tim 3:15This is the "personal relationship" being attatched to the "true vine"
❤❤❤DOVE POINT BIBLE STUDY❤❤❤
Christ should never be put in quotes. He is not a symbol. He is very real.
@@SpaceDad42 😅😅😅 bless your heart
Pre-wrath does not separate the rapture from the second coming. Here is a place where we must define our terms. The Greek translated coming is parousia. Literally "presence" or "coming and continued presence."
His "coming" initiates a series of events. The sealing of the 144K, the rapture, His wrath being poured out, His return the rest of the way to set foot on earth for the battle of Armageddon and to set up His kingdom on earth for the millennium.
Here is where I, interject I guess, something I never heard dear brother Marv or anyone since speak to.
If you read through the 6th seal you see the heaven depart as a scroll when it is rolled together and then those who are going to be "left" saying hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne. (The church will be looking up with the occurrence of the cosmic disturbances of vs 12-13 for our redemption draweth nigh.)
His, and then our, presence will be seen in the throne room while His wrath is being poured out.
The only thing we know about how long that takes is the 5th (if memory serves) trumpet that lasts 5 months.
🎯
I love Heiser but he was a text nerd, not a theologian. Dr. Ken Johnson is both, and recognizes the necessity of the pre-Daniel’s 70th Week-Departure of the Church
@LastFellowship do you have the slides from the Heiser Eschatology lectures?
Rebuilding the temple is meaning bringing all to believe in Jesus....especially those evil hateful things that call themselves the chosen
Just read 1Cor 15:52. At the sound of the last trumpet.
Is there another video of this teaching,that is easier to hear and read ?
John 17 : 15 and 20.
Why must we assume the tribulation is the same as the wrath (judgment) of God? That’s where there should be a splitter, I think.
@@MattWestbrook I don't think "The Tribulation" is a thing. I think tribulation is a thing. God's wrath is certainly an escatological thing.
70th week was 2000 years ago
Joseph and his son Manasseh are in the revelation Israel tribes list - this is probably because Joseph was given a double portion by God. It also means that Ephraim is not in the list (Joseph's other son), being replaced by his father Joseph.
John 14:6, said, John 14:26,
The lamb standing on mount Zion,
Then also?
Stand on mount of olives,
I would be curious which churches/denominations hold which belief.
Generally Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, Methodists, and some Baptists believe in amillennialism or post-millennialism.
Most Evangelicals, usually Non-Denom or Baptists, believe in premillennialism.
Once you look at it like that, it changes things. Same for infant Baptism and the presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
What is the purpose of the tribulation? Who is it meant for?
Wrong question. What is a tribulation and if someone goes through one what is the effect?
That question is a better one.
It's unfortunate he doesn't include St Augustines 6 possible interpretation
@ 27:00 Church in Heaven or on earth? Rev 4. I believe the reason we read about Saints (genuine believers) being on the earth is b/c these are the ones who come to faith AFTER the rapture. God sends 2 witnesses to earth and they preach for 3.5 years until they are killed. In the Book of Rev., John "sees" billions of people in white robes and asks "Who are they?" John is told they are the saints who died during the tribulation. The Bible speaks of those on the earth who do NOT take the mark of the beast. Those are hunted down and slain. Don't you think it's a marvelous show of God's goodness and mercy that He cares about people still on the earth after the rapture? For God so loved the WORLD. And even though the world is without the presence of the church...the technology we have today ensures that although the witnesses are in Jerusalem, the whole world can watch and listen to these two figures preach the Gospel of Christ. And they will be successful in reaching both Jews and non-Jews alike.
But the Saints which is the church is mentioned through the Revelation.
You need to answer when the wrath of God begins, then you will have your answer.
The wrath of God begins when the first seal (the rider on the white horse) is opened!
The wrath of God begins when the first seal (the rider on the white horse) is opened!
Unfortunately the questions asked in all 4 parts of this series cannot be heard. They are usually the best part of a lecture. I guess there is no way that the owners of these recordings could use equipment to hear the questions and then caption them on the video while they r being asked? I tried to use the CC on UA-cam but it cannot decipher either. If this were possible I know it would take some work to do it but it would be majorly appreciated and we could learn more.
ua-cam.com/video/Gq3v0U5_RnM/v-deo.html here
@@LastFellowshipthank you 😊
A chart -- yay!
Now if the chart had links to how the various verses are treated it would be great!
Heh -- one of my grad school profs said 90% of all theology rests on prepositions.
I encountered the position that the church is removed at the start of the tribulation and the saints referred to after that are people who come to Christ during the tribulation.
BTW, where does it say there is a specific Antichrist? That's another invention. Also, it should have been pointed out that the Rapture idea is a recent invention historically.
At the end of the prayer im confused as to why you said, "in your name," and not in Yeshuas name.??
Well thinking about it, if you were not all in in belief then tribulations occurs including taking the true believers wouldn’t some that were wushu wouldn’t they commit all the way even after the tribulation and therefore have to endure until their death. Just thinking😊
If the educated Jews missed Jesus coming on the donkey - how much more should we get closer to Jesus so we don’t miss the truth and get deceived - the owner who went away and gave his employees charge is very sobering - so many comments I read especially from the US always focus on getting out of here rather than Jesus wanting to reclaim the earth
Jesus is the one who defines "The Great Tribulation" as the last half of Daniel's seventieth week. It's a 3 1/2 year period of time. Why not use specificity when talking about these things?
Jesus himself in the book of revelations states twice in a row that the seals are part of the wrath of God. Therefore the great tribulation includes the 21 judgments of seals, trumpets and bowls. And if the antichrist has to be present during the first half of the week to give rise to the abomination of desolation, that indicates that the great tribulation is made up of a period of 7 years. That Jesus refers to that moment in Matthew 24 as "tribulation such as has never existed on earth" is because God's most severe judgments on a geological level will come at that time and because during those 3 and a half years Satan will manifest himself without any restriction. . But that does not mean that the great tribulation will last 3 and a half years....Prophecy must be analyzed taking into account the complete map that the Word of God reveals to us. We should not draw conclusions from an isolated verse.
Where did Mike stand on these matters?
@@trevortoews9850 he was his own brand of amillenialism he didn't think a rapture was taught in scripture. He believed Jesus was coming back to earth in his body, he believed Jesus would set up a kingdom on earth. He believed the church was the new Israel but the earthly Israel was still in God's plan. was He was willing to consider any position, as long as the text could sustain it. He also recognised the text is vague and hard to define a clear view on escatology without making some pretty substantial assumptions and guesses.
@@LastFellowship Thank you, hard to argue with that
Rev 1:9 "I, John, your brother and partner in 👉"THE TRIBULATION"👈 and kingdom and perseverance that are in Jesus, ..."
John was not just using a general view of tribulation, but he rather used the definite article = [THE] Tribulation! And he said HE along with the other saints IN HIS TIME, were already partaking in this event!🤔
@@ShadowofTheAlmighty the bible wasn't written in English.
@@LastFellowship that's from the Greek!😉
τῇ. θλίψει
te' thlipsei
the tribulation
Art-DFS N-DFS
3588 [e] 2347[e]
@@ShadowofTheAlmighty no your adding your own interpretation of what that means.
You need to watch the Heiser videos more carefully.
@@ShadowofTheAlmighty here is the Greek.
Ἐγὼ Ἰωάννης, ὁ ἀδελφὸς ὑμῶν καὶ συνκοινωνὸς 5 ἐν τῇ θλίψει καὶ βασιλεία καὶ ὑπομονῇ ἐν 6 Ἰησοῦ, ἐγενόμην ἐν τῇ νήσῳ τῇ καλουμένῃ Πάτμῳ διὰ τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ 7 τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ
Now that word θλίψει you are adding in your own meaning. It means pressure affliction oppression - but you have imported a theological concept into that word.
Throughout the ot Hebrew Satan is never mentioned it's always "the accuser" and the definite article means anyone can be in that role.
You say the tribulation or the oppression should be considered as The Tribulation. Not the oppression or the pressure that the church is specifically told it will have to endure in this world. You elevate it to a finite defined term rather than a generalised reoccuring and increasing process the church will go through as it's on the Earth.
You don't understand the argument or the issue - you are just doubling down on a conclusion you were taught.
@@LastFellowship read my edit and look it up yourself in the Linear Greek.
Im no Theologin, expert. I have made an attempt to try to understand what is arguably the most "controversial" book in History. I dont feel confident I have much right, I do however understand the basic premise. I have opinions, thats all, and I know this is a much debated topic, but I just dont see what some claim to in scriptures. For example, Revelation 20. It talks about all the souls. Those that were martyred, and 2nd death has no power, and the rest sleep until the 1000 years is over. Why no mention of those "snatched away"? Surely, if you are so good, God just takes you, you would get the reward of reigning with him the 1000 years, like those beheaded for his name, but it isnt mentioned? I wonder why?
Ambiguities in Mathew ch 24??? . The whole chapter is about what will happen to ISRAEL, not the church. Look at the context. Jesus is taking questions from His jewish disciples about JEWISH things, namely what will happen to Israel. Notice all the "jewish only" references Jesus uses to answer their question "What will be the sign of the end and of your coming" ....the references are, "the abomination of desolation"..."the temple"..."the sabbath"..."the rooftops"..."the Judean countryside" ..." the elect"...and perhaps even the fig tree. Regarding "the elect" , Jesus also said "Unless those days had been shortened even the elect wouldn't survive". Who are this "elect " that Jesus was talking about? We find the answer in Zechariah 13:8-9 which says...
" In the whole land" declares the Lord, "two thirds will be struck down and perish ; yet one third will be left in it. This third I will bring into the fire ; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold."
This renders Mathew ch 24 useless for supporting a post - trib rapture, but does support a pre-trib rapture.
Thank to Mike, who I deeply revere, he took the pain to precisely lay out the logical connexion of these different approaches.
But there is a much shorter way of clarification that just arose more and more in the last year. All these endtime schemes are based on the idea of a clear differentiation between the "church" and "israel", which is a dispensations presupposition.
Now if we realize that Christ has only ONE body - as clearly stated not only in Ephesians - that the mystery of god was to make one out of the two, namely Israel AND the gentiles, we must accept that god has not two ways of salvation, i.e. for the church separately from Israel - as dispensationalism teaches.
So there is no theological ground for constructing a different eschatology for the "church" separate from Israel.
Hence a protein rapture before the tribulation for Israel has no theological reasoning anymore. But the thing is that many eschatological teachers are not aware of this heretical basis (Dispensationalism).
Actually there is no hermeneutical reason at all to split up the 490 years of Daniel and project one week (7 years) into the far future.
Also there is no real argument of not following anymore the protestant interpretation of the Antichrist (Luther, Calvin, Guys etc.) instead of waiting for someone new worldruler to come in a newly built temple.
I'm missing the historical approach to eschatology. It's all like inventing the wheel anew. And to close with an important thought of Mike: you cannot possibly understand, interpret revelation without profound understanding the OT and it's allusions to it.
Making one new man out of the two is YOUR CONDITION.
You are a fallen angel yoked with a demon. Until your eyes become single (Christ only), your judgment to die like men continues.
Only one Gospel:
The Gospel of Reconciliation.
Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom
to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself.
We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness.
If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever.
Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods).
REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
So just to mention ( because it makes sense to me ) the 4 gospels ( written by 4 different persons ) cannot be the same as 1 revelation ( written by 1 person) SO... it ( revelation ) is not 4 people seeing the same thing and expressing it somewhat differently. It is ONLY 1 person seeing the event . SO ...again 1 is not the same as 4 . !!
In most of these questions that divide people, there is a central fact - believing one thing or another changes nothing about one's central faith. The Trinity concept is yet another of these uselessly divisive beliefs. These questions have no impact on your faith whatsoever, but many of them presume that you can fathom God, and what exactly he is, which is pure folly in its very essence.
So many differing opinions indicates to me that no one really knows and that they have their fav theory, whether it is based upon Scripture that records the Words of Jesus or of those of Paul or others. Truth is....we don't know but we can sure to talk it to death. For what little I know or understand about all of this, I'll lean on the Lord's words in Matt 24:29-31 and simply not worry about it.
What about Matthew 24:34?
Matthew 24 is still the old testament
@@normmcinnis4102 what
It’s your Faith that saves you. So believe what is written with Faith so then it’s very clear you will see. The tribulation is just like Daniel heard from the Angel of God. It’s all right there in sequence. God is not the author of confusion so don’t doubt what He is telling us through His Word. Don’t be confused by tearing everything apart making sure you are perfectly right because it’s all written and it falls together. Understand the whole plan of God as it is all written. The Rapture is a resurrection when the bodies rise from the grave and rise also those living will change in the twinkling of an eye into the immortal body.
@@ecox8358 this makes no sense
Why does he not mention preterist
Pretty sure they're extremely small
Because they're the most biblicaly confirmed and supported view, but if he said that, most Christians would call him a heretic and ignore everything else he has ever said.
Wow. A lot of arguing. Too much for me while trying to study Truth. 😢
Every time I hear someone promoting the rapture position and its elements, I think of the pharisees and the like who were in the midst of the Messiah and refused to believe him. Jesus gave spot on prophecies on what happened and so many to still refuse to believe historical truth, and for what?
With Dan, there are 13 tribes. Judah was a one-tribe nation. Israel was the rest of the tribes.
When did he give this talk?
I ask because of the "All rapture positions assume" in the thumbnail.
Um no, no they don't.
The rapture occurs at His coming. Parousia in the Greek. Literally presence or coming and continued presence. While His Day of the Lord wrath is being poured out, that presence, along with His church, will be in the clouds, overseeing.
This occurs at some point during the 2nd half of Daniel's 70th week.
After the 7th vial (bowl) is poured out, Christ comes the rest of the way down to earth with His church for the battle of Armageddon then to set up His millennial reign.
See the Pre-wrath view in "7 Pre-trib Problems and the Pre-wrath Rapture" available on this site.
It's been out there for over 30 years people.
I agree but to think the AntiChrist has not already been identified is to believe that God put a 2000 year time gap in a 490 year prophecy when the Catholic church claims that God put a 2000 year time gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel. How freaking absurd.
God has a history of doing things in a way that shocks and surprises everyone, even thought that bet their lives on it.
@@LastFellowship Ill change my view when someone presents an interpretation that makes more sense on the available evidence, to believe your bs means you believe the Pope has serious authority, thats how they made the claim to change it in the first place just like how they removed the 2nd amendment.
Men and their traditions are always their downfall, I was agnostic and about a year before covid GOd made me think of him. Has he spoken to me, nah, I have never heard his voice but I know he gave me the truth and until I see something that makes more sense well puhlease believe the antichrist if you want, for that is who the pope is
Maybe the sign in the sky of the Son of Man was the sign observed by Constantine, and Christ's coming started unfolding into cultivating the world for centries
Maybe that's just what God used like He did with Cyrus??
maybe? a doctrine in search of evidence, wishful false assumption.
The reason the "church" is not mentioned after revelation 4 is because the Letter is TO the churches. It's like writing a letter and you keep repeating the name of the person you're writing to. You don't do that. You address them, then write your letter.
👍 Also it does not use/mention the word church (ekklesia) when referring to the believers who are in heaven in those chapters either but they are the saints the church
@chrispompu1019The tribulation saints…the people who get saved during the tribulation.
What about us that believe the seven years was Jesus ministry to the stoning of Steven? Daniel 9 is done.
Maaaaan, 'THE CHURCH' is actually BELIEVING JEWS-----At MtSinai GOSPEL was preached oer HEBREWS 4:2, and it failed.
However!
Yeshua said through his prophets that HE will change their hearts and write HIS Yorah onto their hearts, so no longer on heavy tablets dragged behind ---JEREMIAH 31:33 and EZEKIEL 36:26
At second Pentecost, HIS Spirit was given again (just like at MtSinai per ISAIAH 63:11) and this time HIS Jewish Bride =EDAH became empowered.
Anyone from tbe nations joining believing Jews become grafted.
Rapture will be on YomTeruah, fall season one year. Then 10 days of Awe untill YomKippur, HIS wrath will be relentless and then HIS arrival back for Sukkot as the King first, and priest subsequently.
Post rapture revival, the 144.000 sealed on the forehead proclaim the gospel and new believers will be made. That's my best explanation from a premil position. God bless.
Rapture already happened around the time of apostle Peter death.
In the old Testament there are saints. These are old Testament saints. In the new Testament saints are the church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. But Revelation , except for the letters to the church's, is an old Testament book. The saints are the Jews.
The issue with comparing Apostle James' reference to a translation of the Masoretic goes away if you go to the Septuagint.
Nevertheless, "tabernacle" is succoth- sheep fold. David was the shepherd of Israel.
First of all, you're only going to understand the rapture if you use the only Bible that contains the truth, the KJV Bible. 1 Thessalonians 4 :16-17 clearly state we're caught up at the last trump. That means the church goes through the seven seals and seven trumpets. Wrath begins at the pouring out of the vials of God's wrath.
If the word ekklesia /church not being used in those chapters 4-18 means the church is absent on earth then then that would mean ekklesia not being used to describe belivers in means the church is absent from heaven in those chapters too using that reasoning
I believe The saints on earth and in heaven in those chapters are part of the church is a more clear interpretation
If I'm not mistaken, in Rev, John sees saints but believers are also called "Bride", ("The Spirit and the bride say 'come!') so in this NEW realm, the concept of "church" would be irrelevant (?) I think what folks forget is that removing believers from the earth is part of God's wrath. I mean, can you imagine a world without the Christian influence? Integrity, love, patience, justice...not to mention no outreaches (soup kitchens, drug rehab, charity etc.) and all the talent and occupations suddenly un-filled would bring chaos! So I don't view it at all as "escapism" and neither did the Apostle Paul! Paul believed and wrote about believers snatched away from the earth before the coming of the A.C. yet he was frantic for 2 things: 1) get people saved 2) get believers fully mature in the faith before Christ returned.
some positions combine the rapture and 2nd coming.
preterist say revelation it is all historical.
And dispensationalists IGNOR history. Ahem, Matt 24 "This generation will not pass away"
@@2drsdan you ignore the meaning of generation
Meaning of This Generation - Option 1
The Greek word that is translated as “generation” in Matthew 24:34 is genea. This word means more than just “generation.” It has the idea of birth, descent, descendants, family, and race. It was even used to refer to the end times.[1]
@@donhaddix3770 Ephesians 3:21 IT NEVER ENDS > > > EVER BUT back to the verse in question, here in 34 this generation was standing right in front of Jesus while He was talking AND referring to the disciples that THEY "the disciples" would live to see the Romans destroy Jerusalem and they did. Just go ask Jesus yourself if this is true or not. Rapture Theory = the church of no effect.
@@2drsdan Matthew, not eph is at issue. I gave the Greek word and its meaning.
@@donhaddix3770 What you gave was the wrong choice among the few Greek words that Greeks use for many different occasions and uses. BUT this use is, in context, about the SUBJECT in the sentence and indeed THE WHOLE CHAPTER which is the destruction of the Temple which they had just come away from. Which was destroyed by the Romans in 70AD, fulfilling Jesus' prophecy that He states here. Why do you hold to a false teaching that dates back only to our Civil War era? Darby and Scofield were jerks that subverted the meanings of these scriptures through the commentaries in the backs and margins of their Bibles which were then picked up by DL Moody and spread across America. LIES ALL. Have you gone to Jesus and asked Him what is the truth here? I didn't think so. Could you do it, pray and ask? The Truth will free you.
WAITING FOR A RAPTURE
ISN'T ONE. ALL WILL BE HERE.
WHO CAN CUT IT AND WHO CAN'T.
@@johnchamberlain9775 HOW WOULD IT BE IF WE ALL YELLED AT EACH OTHER IN NORMAL CONVERSATION?
IT WOULD JUST BE ANNOYING - MUCH LIKE PEOPLE WHO WRITE ALL IN CAPS.