I used to hold on to the classic dispensationalism, but here, later in life after decades of study have come down to the resurrection and not a rapture theology. And I also can't get my eyes off of what happened in 70 a.d., and how much of Matt 24 matches those events very clearly. But the bottom line for me is this: God loves us. And I don't believe God is a sadist. We were not made for wrath. But I also know we are warned over and over to be ready. Every human that has ever lived, or is alive at His return will be judged on the great day of judgement. That much we do know, and that is what you need to prepare for. Keep your lamps full.
@@achoice2bmade You were correct, but weak faith in the truth changed you. Some preterist got to you. ua-cam.com/video/rK5V-LSvO3g/v-deo.htmlsi=W4XjZdvP6XngHyxp
Not appointed to wrath? You are a fallen angel that was judged to die like men. You wanted Satan's flesh party, you got it. It's your convenant with death. Only one Gospel: The Gospel of Reconciliation. Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself. We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness. If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever. Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods). REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
I was once where you were and now where you are. Scriptures interpret Scriptures. That's why I'm a partial - preterist.. I've held this view for many years.
In Gulliver's Travels the Lilliputians are divided by those called the big ender's and the small ender's. Dr Heiser is not trying to make you one or the other, he is trying to stop people going to war over it.
My friend was fond of saying (with regards to eschatology) that he was a “pan-theorist” as in “everything will pan out in the end, so the details don’t matter”.
The details definitely matter. If you think the world is meant to get worse and worse until Jesus pulls you off the planet while he destroys it, you're more likely to withdraw from society and _let_ everything get worse. If you think the world will get better and better as we Christianise the entire planet before Christ's triumphant return, you'll likely be more willing to get involved making that so. It's a huge deal.
@@MeanBeanComedy That first assumption is a non sequitur because it assumes motives. One can believe the world will get worse without withdrawing from it precisely because we don’t know when Christ will return, and so we continue to occupy till He returns (and by “occupy” I mean one will do all one can to maximize good and minimize evil). Moreover, those who assume the world will get better are just as likely to withdraw from society under the assumption that it will get better regardless of how little one does. To be clear, I’m not claiming this to be the case, but only noting that if one makes assumptions about the motivations of others, one can draw any conclusion one wishes.
I have long ago thought that eschatology was a thing God was not displaying clearly for his own good reasons. This puts meat on the bones of my thoughts.
Never knew there were so many scenarios. Seems I was Amillenial for 62 yrs. and did not know it. Now, two yrs. after mandates took our careers, I have changed my eschatology and also some other views in my life. Yes, filtering in Bible study has a major impact on your views, but so does personal experience and timing. There will be many arguments in favour of certain views or not. We are still human; we will differ on interpretation. We will even differ with our own opinion should we experience influence(s) that influence our thinking! My big jump came as stated - started with Covid lockdowns and got turbo-boosted with mandates. I have lost connection with many people, not just ex. colleagues of 24 years. I believe the Lord has moved my life on to a different lane and rapture has become extremely valuable now that I have time to actually study scripture. Pre-trib view is apparent to me now as scripturally correct with the new filter I have been blessed with. Now I can get on with what is truly important; standing still, looking up to Jesus and seeing the salvation of the Lord! Maranatha!
@@MeanBeanComedy I concede there is a possibility that am wrong, but you do not. So, what are you afraid of, because I am willing to stake my life on my belief of the pre-trib rapture. God has changed my understanding; I did not go looking for a new prophecy on eschatology. Yet you are the one who cannot concede; will not concede because I believe you are willfully ignorant, and I pray your lack of scriptural doctrine and your biblical hermeneutics will be altered to see that the time is almost gone. The time of the Gentiles came to an end when I was a young man and I did not put time, prayer and effort as I should have to even come close to being exposed to truth of our times. I had to just about lose everything before I was able to hear what the Lord was trying to show me. So, if this is a joke or you think meanbeancomedy allows you privileges that surmount to transferring your fears onto others, good luck. Otherwise if you are insecure but in earnest about doctrinal truths, you will do your own homework (more than 500 hrs) and discover what many are today, these last final days before we are taken up into the clouds as scripture says. Even 5 hrs research will make a difference. Stop being lazy and read your Bible! Maranatha!
@@user-qi4qc5wl6b How are you staking your life on this? I'm not staking my life on anything; I'm just living out Historic Apostolic Christianity like my elder brothers and sisters in the Church. There's no staking anything on any of this here unless you're withdrawing from the world and becoming pietist due to your Dispensationalism.
There are things that we do need to know. There are things that we don't need to know. What we must worry about is how we take those things to heart and how we obey the things in the first category.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Romans 5:6-11 We are waiting the return in service of our Glorious Bridegroom ❤❤❤❤ I pray the world will as Jesus said...be known by our love for each other. Division and discord is not of the body of Christ. Put it far from us.
@@kristenspencer9751Yeah, but most of this, "Oh dear, please stop arguing!!1" is coming from old ladies that don't understand how men debate, argue, and communicate. Very few people are actually breaking fellowship over these debates. It is more likely to bring people together.
It would be valuable to reexamine this topic with an emphasis on the events that occurred before, led up to, and included the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Josephus provides fascinating insights from this era that some might interpret as fulfilling end-time prophecies. Furthermore, a compelling argument exists that none of the 83 individuals named in the New Testament wrote any texts after the 70 AD destruction. Delving into this perspective could greatly enhance the discussion.
3 місяці тому+7
I understand too little from the Bible. I leave the doctrinal conflicts to the experts. Absolutely great methodology that of doctor Heiser.
You shouldn’t. Its your duty to search for these answers, to study for them. Don’t be intellectually and spiritually lazy. I used to be a pre-trib dispensationalist and after studying it for myself and chewing on the arguments made for post-trib I noticed that my faith has been more steadfast. Knowing that one day I will be hunted down to the point of death made me add weight to my belief. Would you die for what you believe in? Its easy to believe when you believe you conveniently get taken out of the hard part.
As Mike has said many times, you have the splitters and the joiners, but you also have (in prophecy) the already, but not yet. There are things in eschatology and prophecy that are not meant to be understood until the right time.
I think it's not clear, therefore we may never know 100 percent. That's ok. Believers will be saved by trusting Jesus. We won't go to hell. Hallelujah! Jesus said no one Knows the day or the hour no, not the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. So, I'm good with that. I think it's just the final coming - period. And that Christians may have to endure some terrible things, as we did before. God promises He won't allow us to be tempted above our ability to endure it.❤
This man is further exploring the heavens as he is now with the Father. He taught and shared the Bible with so many! Wonder what his assignment will be ? Will be interesting to find out! God Bless
Also, it occurs to me that Satan is real focused on muddying the waters of this subject. A Blessed Hope must anger him a lot....he KNOWS this Hope means his time is about to end Praise GOD
Child of God. Whenever Jesus returns, we are to set our faces like flint and with the Holy Spirits help, be overcomers of all that this world throws at us. May He bless you and keep you.😊
The details definitely matter. If you think the world is meant to get worse and worse until Jesus pulls you off the planet while he destroys it, you're more likely to withdraw from society and _let_ everything get worse. If you think the world will get better and better as we Christianise the entire planet before Christ's triumphant return, you'll likely be more willing to get involved making that so. It's a huge deal.
Two points: Firstly, the entire church can be taken prior to experiencing wrath, yet every person saved during that wrath is added to the church (Revelation 12:11 & Revelation 20:4). Secondly, WHEN can be determined by realizing the rapture is connected to a resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Isaiah 26:19-21 teaches of a resurrection of singing (ie - joy & worship) that takes place *_before_* the indignation of the LORD is poured out on the inhabitants of the earth!!! Before the indignation is pour out. That resurrection is followed by an invitation to his people to “come” and shelter themselves in their chambers until the indignation is past. This resurrection is the key to determining when the rapture occurs.
Many denominations consider rapture theology unscriptural. There is 1 return of Christ period. The early church did not have a split view of His return. John Nelson Darby and Scofield created a construct called Dispensationalism in late 1800s . It's always good to know the foundations of belief.
The rapture was taught by Paul and John and Christ and poly carp and iraneus. Read the didache. It way before Darby and others. Puritan writers were well before Darby as well. You are speaking nonsense
No. Read Iranaeus, Against Heresies, book 5, chapter 30 on till the end. Very clear he spoke of the church leaving and then the tribulation. @MeanBeanComedy
Pre-wrath doesn’t have the church removed before the tribulation, just before the wrath is poured out. The wrath is everything that happens in the Day of the Lord, so to take a pre-wrath position just aligns with 1st Thess 4:13 onwards. Wrath and tribulation are not the same thing. Wrath and great tribulation are not the same thing. 1st Thess 5:1-10 shows us that the “Day of the Lord” is when the wrath of God is poured out, but we are not appointed to it
I was glad to see Pre-Wrath mentioned. The Church is exempt from wrath. We are not exempt from natural disaster, war, plague, famine, and especially not exempt from persecution.
The Israelites lived safely and securely behind their blood covered doorposts during the 10th plague, just prior to The Exodus. For that matter they were totally unaffected by the 7 last plagues. No reason God’s people won’t do as well at the end of this world.
The Day of the Lord, the Tribulation, The Time of Jacob's trouble...they are ALL the same thing. They are the seven year period described in Daniel. The only difference between them is that the Time of Jacob's Trouble, and the Day of the Lord apply only to Israel and constitute the second half of the seven week period. We know the Tribulation is the WRATH of God right from it's start because even the Christ rejectors hiding in the caves and mountains as described in Revelation ch 6 , say it is the WRATH of God. People make the mistake of equating the scriptures that only apply to Israel , to the church. This is the mistake that people have made with Mathew ch 24 which is clearly is about Israel, not the church.
Everyone and I mean EVERYONE does not take into account the Thunders in Revelation. John was commanded not to list them. But they are just as important as the seals, trumpets and bowls.
Yes .. so I did a word study. In revelation it says that the meanings of the thunders was sealed. We are not given an explanation. Revelation 10: 2-4 KJV 2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, 3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. 4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. To research "thunder" and "thunders" I looked up every time the words were used in the KJV bible using the BLB Blue Letter Bible app. Its was exciting to read and consider what I found. The word "thunder" appears 19 times in the KJV bible. The word "thunders" appears 6 times in the KJV bible. ( thunder is associated with sound, power, judgement and many times anger. ) In Greek, Aramaic, and, Hebrew, thunder often regarded as the voice of God (Job 37:2; Psalm 18:13; 81:7; compare John 12:29) More examples: 2 Samuel 22:14 The Lord thundered from heaven; the voice of the Most High resounded. In Exodus 19:16 Thunder accompanied the giving of the law to Moses at Sinai. Job 37:5 God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend. Psalm 29:1 The voice of the LORD is over the waters; the God of glory thunders, the LORD thunders over the mighty waters. The voice of the LORD is powerful; the voice of the LORD is majestic. The voice of the LORD breaks the cedars; the LORD breaks in pieces the cedars of Lebanon.
Almighty God chose not to reveal the content. That's good enough for me. I plan to go vertical before His terrible, righteous wrath comes down. Got Jesus ? Time is short 🌷
30:12 Not all Saints are those made during the Church Age. There will be Tribulation Saints, also. Those Old Testament believers in the (promised) Messiah are also to be considered Saints. A ''saint'' is one who has been saved, due to their acceptance of Christ.
Everyone always makes the parable of the 10 virgins about the oil and about some leaving to go buy more and therefore missing out on going in with the others and the Groom, but usually the teachers leave out the main point, they are waiting for the Groom to come and for the wedding feast to begin - which by tradition always occurred when darkness was all around, *_needing their lamps to see what was happening and where they were going._* I've often wondered about the meaning of that parable and how it possibly applies to the Church and to me, but after listening to so many teachers trying their best to stretch the word and force their various meanings onto Scripture, I no longer wonder about it, except perhaps those who have decided they will not be harpazo'd before the week of the outpouring of God's wrath, who just may be allowed to stay right where they have taught and chosen to believe they will be, - right here on earth calling up after those taken to be let in. Makes one wonder. *_"Before The Wrath"_* - watch that documentary for a better option.
None of us really know. Obviously, based on the coming outpouring of Gods wrath in the tribulation period, I hope and pray the pre tribulation prediction is correct. However, it is most important that we surrender to our Lord and follow Him daily by staying in His Word. This is so we are strong in the Lord no matter what happens or when the rapture occurs.
Signs are key. Another word for signs is prophecy. There can be no unfulfilled prophecy before the Rapture. This requirement should inform your attitude towards imminency.
Yes there can, the marriage supper is after the rapture (for modern dispensationists) therefore it's unfulfilled prophecy when the rapture occurs. There is quite a lot of prophecy unfulfilled at the time of the rapture.
I don't see how people can deny that Antiochus Epiphanies instituted the first abomination of desolation mentioned in Daniel. And almost as strongly as that seems obvious, that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 a.d. wasn't the second
The Lord Jesus spoke of the abomination that makes desolate correct? Mathew 24 15. It will occur again. The Jews will rebuild the temple and he will sacrifice in the Holy place
God has recently brought to my attention that in Mathew ch 24 when Jesus said "Unless those days had been shortened even the elect wouldn't survive, He was referring to Zechariah 13:8-9 which says ... " In the whole land" declares the Lord, "two thirds will be struck down and perish ; yet one third will be left in it. This third I will bring into the fire ; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold." This one third is the "elect" that Jesus was talking about. Zechariah is the OT version of Revelation except it's all about what happens to Israel. But all of Mathew ch 24 is about what will happen to Israel. That's why Jesus started His answer to the question of what is the sign of the end, with the "abomination of desolation" and even mentions Daniel...as you aptly brought up.
The details of eschatology definitely matter here. If you think the world is meant to get worse and worse until Jesus pulls you off the planet while he destroys it, you're more likely to withdraw from society and _let_ everything get worse. If you think the world will get better and better as we Christianise the entire planet before Christ's triumphant return, you'll likely be more willing to get involved making that so. It's a huge deal.
I was questioning myself if my view of the return of Christ is not what I was thinking of ; Do I still believe he’s coming or will I loose my faith? I have to accept that I have to trust the Lord, still keep believing and adjust to whatever situation cause He loves us no matter how the things will develop. I HAVE Change some of my views and looking through scripture to let it says what is says and not what I would like it to say
The chapters 1-3 about the church do not mention any of the disasters in 4-18, and vice versa. That is remarkable. The observation is independent of any linearity issue, since it is a thematic issue.
I have come to a partial preterist view on that. It all comes down to what date a scholar says the book of revelation was written. If pre 70 a.d., then most of Matt 24 happened when Rome sacked Jerusalem (putting an end to sacrifices etc as Jesus said, it ended the Temple system completely and it hasn't been in place since) if after, some say 90 a.d., then that would make the whole rapture this and that seem plausible. But each of us needs to study that all out. A book that helped me was "Victorious Eschatology" by Dr.s Eberle and Trench
@@danettecross8608 the event in which the temple was defiled was before the time of Christ. The historical character who committed the atrocity is Antiochus IV Epiphanes. He goes into the Holy of Holies and sacrifices a pig (so the story goes). It's a pre-curser/type and shadow thing. Rather, I think Satan had his timing off. The first time Satan attempted a one world order was at the tower of Babel. God intervened b/c not yet God's timing. Next, Satan got it wrong again by defiling the temple (thinking he was fulfilling the Daniel prophecy). The actions of Antiochus (Anti-Ochus...the name even sounds like anti-christ) were inspired by Satan. But his timing was again in vain. So I don't believe the Daniel event has occurred yet. With no temple, there can be no sacrifice. But I think the temple will be rebuilt perhaps during the first part of the great Trib after the anti-Christ has come on the scene and proclaims a 7 year peace treaty for Israel. With peace (not war with neighbor countries) they will be able to devote 100% attention and funding towards the temple. Then, with the temple constructed, the AC will declare himself to be god. Of course, it's all very interesting and glad folks are at least discussing it. Nothing wrong with a good discussion!
@@Tdizzle7775 Well, not all theologians believe that. And actually, you have no solid proof that it was or there would not be a very robust discussion going on about it. Pray over it and have your own conviction. I have mine.
Pre-wrath does not separate the rapture from the second coming. Here is a place where we must define our terms. The Greek translated coming is parousia. Literally "presence" or "coming and continued presence." His "coming" initiates a series of events. The sealing of the 144K, the rapture, His wrath being poured out, His return the rest of the way to set foot on earth for the battle of Armageddon and to set up His kingdom on earth for the millennium. Here is where I, interject I guess, something I never heard dear brother Marv or anyone since speak to. If you read through the 6th seal you see the heaven depart as a scroll when it is rolled together and then those who are going to be "left" saying hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne. (The church will be looking up with the occurrence of the cosmic disturbances of vs 12-13 for our redemption draweth nigh.) His, and then our, presence will be seen in the throne room while His wrath is being poured out. The only thing we know about how long that takes is the 5th (if memory serves) trumpet that lasts 5 months.
The speaker said we can’t call being caught up the blessed hope if it happens after the tribulation why not I believe It’s a blessed hope to know we will be gathered to the Lord even if it’s after the tribulation
@@paulgerhardt6499 Are we not promised salvation by grace through faith? (Ephesians 2:8-9). If the Lord promises, He delivers. Therefore that's what we have to look forward to. I'm explaining it to you in a grammatical sense for @LastFellowship's reply to your original comment. Hope would not be the right word to use from a linguistic stand point when referring to the salvation that the Lord promised to those who have faith in Him and what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross. Does that make more sense now or where you intentionally just being snarky just for the sake of it?
@@SavedbyGraceAlone84 not sure how that shows we will be raptured ect your just deducting from the verses in the Bible to make it says things that you interpret but if you inductively study the verses you will not find a pre trib rapture as the blessed hope inductive study/breaking down each verse word by word and in the context will allow you to see clearly what is being said deductive study is how cults start Mormons Jehovah’s Witness ect
I love Heiser but he was a text nerd, not a theologian. Dr. Ken Johnson is both, and recognizes the necessity of the pre-Daniel’s 70th Week-Departure of the Church
When did he give this talk? I ask because of the "All rapture positions assume" in the thumbnail. Um no, no they don't. The rapture occurs at His coming. Parousia in the Greek. Literally presence or coming and continued presence. While His Day of the Lord wrath is being poured out, that presence, along with His church, will be in the clouds, overseeing. This occurs at some point during the 2nd half of Daniel's 70th week. After the 7th vial (bowl) is poured out, Christ comes the rest of the way down to earth with His church for the battle of Armageddon then to set up His millennial reign. See the Pre-wrath view in "7 Pre-trib Problems and the Pre-wrath Rapture" available on this site. It's been out there for over 30 years people.
The "Christ" that indwells us is the word of God. Hos 6:3 John 8:31, & 47 Matt 7:23 2Tim 3:15This is the "personal relationship" being attatched to the "true vine" ❤❤❤DOVE POINT BIBLE STUDY❤❤❤
@ 27:00 Church in Heaven or on earth? Rev 4. I believe the reason we read about Saints (genuine believers) being on the earth is b/c these are the ones who come to faith AFTER the rapture. God sends 2 witnesses to earth and they preach for 3.5 years until they are killed. In the Book of Rev., John "sees" billions of people in white robes and asks "Who are they?" John is told they are the saints who died during the tribulation. The Bible speaks of those on the earth who do NOT take the mark of the beast. Those are hunted down and slain. Don't you think it's a marvelous show of God's goodness and mercy that He cares about people still on the earth after the rapture? For God so loved the WORLD. And even though the world is without the presence of the church...the technology we have today ensures that although the witnesses are in Jerusalem, the whole world can watch and listen to these two figures preach the Gospel of Christ. And they will be successful in reaching both Jews and non-Jews alike.
If the educated Jews missed Jesus coming on the donkey - how much more should we get closer to Jesus so we don’t miss the truth and get deceived - the owner who went away and gave his employees charge is very sobering - so many comments I read especially from the US always focus on getting out of here rather than Jesus wanting to reclaim the earth
Generally Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, Methodists, and some Baptists believe in amillennialism or post-millennialism. Most Evangelicals, usually Non-Denom or Baptists, believe in premillennialism. Once you look at it like that, it changes things. Same for infant Baptism and the presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
Jesus is the one who defines "The Great Tribulation" as the last half of Daniel's seventieth week. It's a 3 1/2 year period of time. Why not use specificity when talking about these things?
Jesus himself in the book of revelations states twice in a row that the seals are part of the wrath of God. Therefore the great tribulation includes the 21 judgments of seals, trumpets and bowls. And if the antichrist has to be present during the first half of the week to give rise to the abomination of desolation, that indicates that the great tribulation is made up of a period of 7 years. That Jesus refers to that moment in Matthew 24 as "tribulation such as has never existed on earth" is because God's most severe judgments on a geological level will come at that time and because during those 3 and a half years Satan will manifest himself without any restriction. . But that does not mean that the great tribulation will last 3 and a half years....Prophecy must be analyzed taking into account the complete map that the Word of God reveals to us. We should not draw conclusions from an isolated verse.
The issue with comparing Apostle James' reference to a translation of the Masoretic goes away if you go to the Septuagint. Nevertheless, "tabernacle" is succoth- sheep fold. David was the shepherd of Israel.
Well thinking about it, if you were not all in in belief then tribulations occurs including taking the true believers wouldn’t some that were wushu wouldn’t they commit all the way even after the tribulation and therefore have to endure until their death. Just thinking😊
There are 70 “weeks.” Sixty-nine of the 70 bring us to Jesus. The last week remains; in the midst of that week, or three and half years Jesus is crucified,” the 70th week ends with the stoning of Stephen. Why cut out the 70th week and move it to the last days? It makes no sense from the reading of Daniel. All the rapture theories collapse like a house of cards!
Of course they do. It's an invention created to make Christians lazy and complacent, and it's worked really well on the (thankfully few on the global scale) American Evangelicals who took the bait.
Are "saints" only in the "ecclesia" or are they also in the redeemed of Israel i.e. the 144,000 in Revelation? The simple meaning of "saint" is one who is set apart.
Saints is a word that is used to represent the word "holy ones" in Greek (Agioi). Its not a very meaningful translation of the word - it obscures it rather than makes it clear.
@@LastFellowship, Being that we are looking at Revelation, don't you think that the Hebrew meaning is more appropriate קֹדֶשׁ which does strongly lean to apart or separate. It is used extensively throughout the OT. John's gospel and Revelation are very Hebrew in character and again, as Heiser points out chapters 4-18 of Revelation are almost exclusively focused on Israel.
@@Saratogan Only one Gospel: The Gospel of Reconciliation. Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself. We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness. If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever. Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods). REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
So just to mention ( because it makes sense to me ) the 4 gospels ( written by 4 different persons ) cannot be the same as 1 revelation ( written by 1 person) SO... it ( revelation ) is not 4 people seeing the same thing and expressing it somewhat differently. It is ONLY 1 person seeing the event . SO ...again 1 is not the same as 4 . !!
In the old Testament there are saints. These are old Testament saints. In the new Testament saints are the church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. But Revelation , except for the letters to the church's, is an old Testament book. The saints are the Jews.
Thank to Mike, who I deeply revere, he took the pain to precisely lay out the logical connexion of these different approaches. But there is a much shorter way of clarification that just arose more and more in the last year. All these endtime schemes are based on the idea of a clear differentiation between the "church" and "israel", which is a dispensations presupposition. Now if we realize that Christ has only ONE body - as clearly stated not only in Ephesians - that the mystery of god was to make one out of the two, namely Israel AND the gentiles, we must accept that god has not two ways of salvation, i.e. for the church separately from Israel - as dispensationalism teaches. So there is no theological ground for constructing a different eschatology for the "church" separate from Israel. Hence a protein rapture before the tribulation for Israel has no theological reasoning anymore. But the thing is that many eschatological teachers are not aware of this heretical basis (Dispensationalism). Actually there is no hermeneutical reason at all to split up the 490 years of Daniel and project one week (7 years) into the far future. Also there is no real argument of not following anymore the protestant interpretation of the Antichrist (Luther, Calvin, Guys etc.) instead of waiting for someone new worldruler to come in a newly built temple. I'm missing the historical approach to eschatology. It's all like inventing the wheel anew. And to close with an important thought of Mike: you cannot possibly understand, interpret revelation without profound understanding the OT and it's allusions to it.
Making one new man out of the two is YOUR CONDITION. You are a fallen angel yoked with a demon. Until your eyes become single (Christ only), your judgment to die like men continues. Only one Gospel: The Gospel of Reconciliation. Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself. We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness. If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever. Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods). REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
Maybe the sign in the sky of the Son of Man was the sign observed by Constantine, and Christ's coming started unfolding into cultivating the world for centries Maybe that's just what God used like He did with Cyrus??
The reason the "church" is not mentioned after revelation 4 is because the Letter is TO the churches. It's like writing a letter and you keep repeating the name of the person you're writing to. You don't do that. You address them, then write your letter.
Yes 100%. I also noticed that during the breaking of the 5th seal in Rev 6:11 after the martyrs ask God when their blood will be avenged God tells them that must rest until the full number of their brothers are killed. If the church has been rapture who is being martyred during the 5th seal?
👍 Also it does not use/mention the word church (ekklesia) when referring to the believers who are in heaven in those chapters either but they are the saints the church
Maaaaan, 'THE CHURCH' is actually BELIEVING JEWS-----At MtSinai GOSPEL was preached oer HEBREWS 4:2, and it failed. However! Yeshua said through his prophets that HE will change their hearts and write HIS Yorah onto their hearts, so no longer on heavy tablets dragged behind ---JEREMIAH 31:33 and EZEKIEL 36:26 At second Pentecost, HIS Spirit was given again (just like at MtSinai per ISAIAH 63:11) and this time HIS Jewish Bride =EDAH became empowered. Anyone from tbe nations joining believing Jews become grafted. Rapture will be on YomTeruah, fall season one year. Then 10 days of Awe untill YomKippur, HIS wrath will be relentless and then HIS arrival back for Sukkot as the King first, and priest subsequently.
If the word ekklesia /church not being used in those chapters 4-18 means the church is absent on earth then then that would mean ekklesia not being used to describe belivers in means the church is absent from heaven in those chapters too using that reasoning I believe The saints on earth and in heaven in those chapters are part of the church is a more clear interpretation
If I'm not mistaken, in Rev, John sees saints but believers are also called "Bride", ("The Spirit and the bride say 'come!') so in this NEW realm, the concept of "church" would be irrelevant (?) I think what folks forget is that removing believers from the earth is part of God's wrath. I mean, can you imagine a world without the Christian influence? Integrity, love, patience, justice...not to mention no outreaches (soup kitchens, drug rehab, charity etc.) and all the talent and occupations suddenly un-filled would bring chaos! So I don't view it at all as "escapism" and neither did the Apostle Paul! Paul believed and wrote about believers snatched away from the earth before the coming of the A.C. yet he was frantic for 2 things: 1) get people saved 2) get believers fully mature in the faith before Christ returned.
So many differing opinions indicates to me that no one really knows and that they have their fav theory, whether it is based upon Scripture that records the Words of Jesus or of those of Paul or others. Truth is....we don't know but we can sure to talk it to death. For what little I know or understand about all of this, I'll lean on the Lord's words in Matt 24:29-31 and simply not worry about it.
Every time I hear someone promoting the rapture position and its elements, I think of the pharisees and the like who were in the midst of the Messiah and refused to believe him. Jesus gave spot on prophecies on what happened and so many to still refuse to believe historical truth, and for what?
First of all, you're only going to understand the rapture if you use the only Bible that contains the truth, the KJV Bible. 1 Thessalonians 4 :16-17 clearly state we're caught up at the last trump. That means the church goes through the seven seals and seven trumpets. Wrath begins at the pouring out of the vials of God's wrath.
Im no Theologin, expert. I have made an attempt to try to understand what is arguably the most "controversial" book in History. I dont feel confident I have much right, I do however understand the basic premise. I have opinions, thats all, and I know this is a much debated topic, but I just dont see what some claim to in scriptures. For example, Revelation 20. It talks about all the souls. Those that were martyred, and 2nd death has no power, and the rest sleep until the 1000 years is over. Why no mention of those "snatched away"? Surely, if you are so good, God just takes you, you would get the reward of reigning with him the 1000 years, like those beheaded for his name, but it isnt mentioned? I wonder why?
In most of these questions that divide people, there is a central fact - believing one thing or another changes nothing about one's central faith. The Trinity concept is yet another of these uselessly divisive beliefs. These questions have no impact on your faith whatsoever, but many of them presume that you can fathom God, and what exactly he is, which is pure folly in its very essence.
We dont believe this is all there is to the earthly Kingdom. We dont think we are just this, end of story. We believe the Kingdom is here, but being built. And wrestling. But events here bring about the increase of Christ's reign
@SavedbyGraceAlone84 We believe the thy Kingdom come and increasing on the earth. With Communion with the Saints in Heaven. It's a tug of war that we knowingly are engaged in for the healing of the nations. We reign through serving them and leading them to peace. See Zechariah 14. The Church takes that position.
@@katiehav1209 Deuteronomy 18 Occult Practices 9 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the Lord your God. Psalm 115:17 ESV / 87 helpful votes The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence. Ecclesiastes 12:7 ESV / 78 helpful votes And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. 1 Timothy 2:5 ESV / 74 helpful votes For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 2 Corinthians 11:14 ESV / 60 helpful votes And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Isaiah 8:19 ESV / 56 helpful votes And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living? 1 Timothy 4:1 ESV / 55 helpful votes Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
whether the Bible says pre, mid, or post is not one I care a whole lot about. Though I will say I am more comfortable with a post trib rapture, purely because it doesn't exactly seem fair to me that those people who will be saved during the rapture will have no brothers to lead them through the tribulation, thereby making them fend for themselves. I don't know if pre-trib scholars believe this, but whenever I talk with laymen who are pre-trib, it seems more as if they hold to that position more out of fear of enduring the pain of the tribulation than anything. I had a conversation with someone who said that because it's supposed to be the worst suffering in all of human existence, God will deliver His people out of it. Which made me think of the Slavery in Egypt, Exile to Babylon, the conquest of Rome, and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Those were not exactly easy things to go through, yet God's people endured all of them. Then you have the Persecution of Christians throughout the ages in HORRIBLE situations who endure awful things. We as followers of God have endured a lot and if we hold fast to Him, why can't we consider Pauls perspective that this is merely a "Light momentary affliction"? So if the Bible teaches a Pre-Trib rapture, I'll be all for it, but I'm not inclined to hold to it merely because it's gonna be scary or painful.
It helped me understand better to know that the tribulation is God's Wrath upon the earth, but there is a verse that says believers are not appointed unto wrath. "Wrath" is not the same word as eternal judgement which comes later. As for the rapture, there's a verse in the Bible where Paul writes that we shall go to meet Him in the air, and to COMFORT one another with these words. If the rapture comes at the end when Christ is coming back DOWN to rule and reign with us during the 1,000 year Millenium, why, then, do we go UP? The Great Tribulation is said by Jesus to be so terrible that if He did not return at a specified time, there would be no one left alive. Also, it makes sense that removing Christians from the earth is NOT just for us, but part of God's wrath. Can you imagine a world without Christians? No soup kitchens, no prison ministry, no drug/alcohol rehab (no AA), no Christian charities, no kindness, no compassion, no truth, no integrity, no love? And think of all the talent and occupations impacted with so many people gone from the earth! That in and of itself would be chaos! We see figures in the Bible who were raptured...like Enoch in Genesis, Elijah, and Jesus (His ascension). Rather than make Christians couch potatoes, the life of Paul (who believed Jesus could come back in his day) is an example to be lived out! Paul was frantically trying to accomplish 2 things: 1) to get people saved 2) to bring saved born-again believers to maturity in the faith. Paul was not resting on his laurels twiddling his thumbs "waiting" for the rapture! That in and of itself makes me believe that the pre-trib rapture is a stronger position.
Understand why you are here. You left heaven for Satan's flesh party. Welcome to your prison. Only one Gospel: The Gospel of Reconciliation. Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself. We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness. If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever. Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods). REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
I agree but to think the AntiChrist has not already been identified is to believe that God put a 2000 year time gap in a 490 year prophecy when the Catholic church claims that God put a 2000 year time gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel. How freaking absurd.
@@LastFellowship Ill change my view when someone presents an interpretation that makes more sense on the available evidence, to believe your bs means you believe the Pope has serious authority, thats how they made the claim to change it in the first place just like how they removed the 2nd amendment. Men and their traditions are always their downfall, I was agnostic and about a year before covid GOd made me think of him. Has he spoken to me, nah, I have never heard his voice but I know he gave me the truth and until I see something that makes more sense well puhlease believe the antichrist if you want, for that is who the pope is
I've noticed that most of the people that hold to dispensational premillennialism and take it as a given usually belong to the one "denominations" that holds to that fairly young belief system instead of the traditional position of Churches older than a few decades or so.
@@2drsdan you ignore the meaning of generation Meaning of This Generation - Option 1 The Greek word that is translated as “generation” in Matthew 24:34 is genea. This word means more than just “generation.” It has the idea of birth, descent, descendants, family, and race. It was even used to refer to the end times.[1]
@@donhaddix3770 Ephesians 3:21 IT NEVER ENDS > > > EVER BUT back to the verse in question, here in 34 this generation was standing right in front of Jesus while He was talking AND referring to the disciples that THEY "the disciples" would live to see the Romans destroy Jerusalem and they did. Just go ask Jesus yourself if this is true or not. Rapture Theory = the church of no effect.
@@donhaddix3770 What you gave was the wrong choice among the few Greek words that Greeks use for many different occasions and uses. BUT this use is, in context, about the SUBJECT in the sentence and indeed THE WHOLE CHAPTER which is the destruction of the Temple which they had just come away from. Which was destroyed by the Romans in 70AD, fulfilling Jesus' prophecy that He states here. Why do you hold to a false teaching that dates back only to our Civil War era? Darby and Scofield were jerks that subverted the meanings of these scriptures through the commentaries in the backs and margins of their Bibles which were then picked up by DL Moody and spread across America. LIES ALL. Have you gone to Jesus and asked Him what is the truth here? I didn't think so. Could you do it, pray and ask? The Truth will free you.
@@LastFellowship I think you think I am missing the point, but I am not. I totally get his point but it goes towards him as well it cuts both ways, what do you think I am missing, dont worry ill be hoenst. Regardless my point is still true about the 70th week of Daniel, your point is just well be careful you THINK you are right but maybe you are not and hence I said if they have an interpretation that actually make sense then fine but they do not
Ambiguities in Mathew ch 24??? . The whole chapter is about what will happen to ISRAEL, not the church. Look at the context. Jesus is taking questions from His jewish disciples about JEWISH things, namely what will happen to Israel. Notice all the "jewish only" references Jesus uses to answer their question "What will be the sign of the end and of your coming" ....the references are, "the abomination of desolation"..."the temple"..."the sabbath"..."the rooftops"..."the Judean countryside" ..." the elect"...and perhaps even the fig tree. Regarding "the elect" , Jesus also said "Unless those days had been shortened even the elect wouldn't survive". Who are this "elect " that Jesus was talking about? We find the answer in Zechariah 13:8-9 which says... " In the whole land" declares the Lord, "two thirds will be struck down and perish ; yet one third will be left in it. This third I will bring into the fire ; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold." This renders Mathew ch 24 useless for supporting a post - trib rapture, but does support a pre-trib rapture.
That's such a weird thing to say. It's such a mystical thing to say I would question if you have a faith in the real Jesus or a mythological one. Everything you know about theology or have been taught about theology comes from the bible. And every word was written by a human being and is interpreted by another human being (the translation team), and then interpreted by you or your pastor. So if you aren't believing in some weird mystical cult, what on earth are you talking about? And have you realised the hypocrisy in what you just said. Are you really telling me you learned nothing from any human being at all?
@@2drsdan It has not been proven wrong at all. In fact, it's been proven as the proper teaching from the Bible that the apostles believed and that many of the early church fathers believed. William Watson published a book with hundreds of quotes from ancient documents. You didn't get the memo.
23:29 "It could just mean hell. Who knows? You can go either way." 23:53 " Now this one sounds more like hell." Good grief, and this guy is a doctor? Who knows?? Seriously, that's his argument? You can literally look up the meaning of the word in its original form. We know that the text was originally written in Ancient Greek. In both verses he cited, the word "wrath" was translated from the word ὀργή, pronounced "or-gay," Strong's concordance number G3709. The definition of ὀργή according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon? "anger, wrath, indignation." So yeah, "wrath" quite 𝑙𝑖𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑎𝑙𝑙𝑦 means "wrath" in both of the verses that he cited. Ridiculous he didn't do his research, and yet you guys are eating it up like cake.
Only one Gospel: The Gospel of Reconciliation. Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself. We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness. If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever. Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods). REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
Why does his eschatology lecture not address the reality that the word "rapture" (whether in the Hebrew or Greek languages) is never used in the OT and NT and that the reality of the word "rapture" was invented in the 1800s. I don't get the contextual impression that the Hebrews, the disciples and Yeshua ever thought of a complete removal out of tribulation as a reality.
@@garywinslow7595But this Greek word is not the English word for rapture. There is no Greek word for rapture is my point, also true for Hebrew. You are thinking of Latin, thus raptura, only found in the Vulgate as far as I know. Plus the Vulgate is very western relative to the Greek and Hebrew cultures.
"An 1828 edition of Matthew Henry's An Exposition of the Old and New Testament uses the word "rapture" in explicating 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Although not using the term "rapture", the idea was more fully developed by Edward Irving (1792-1834)."
Because that is an irrelevant point. No English word occurs in the bible. The word rapture is a translation and it does occur in the bible in a Latin form (which is also a translation). But Michael Heiser is a text scholar and doesnt deal here with the popular level issues, he does that else where.
@@davidknollhoff3942 Look at the defintions of harpazo and rapture. They don't have to be the same word, but they are equivalent. Harpazo literally means to snatch away. So what if rapture is substituted for harpazo? If you want to nit pick definitions, then you are welcome to it, but the meaning is roughly the same.
This lecture is essentially a huge waste of time. Reason being is when you actually study the Bible, all of this is incorrect. So now you have to unlearn all this. The Bible clearly shows that the rapture already happened. I know the thoughts running through your head at this moment. "You're crazy, how could you think that? We would surely know. No one has disappeared or flew up in the air!" The reason I know and that people can know the timing is if it already happened. The end of the age was in the first century. It was the end of the old covenant system with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Study out preterism. It makes more sense. It fills in the absolutely confusion and "not knowing anything" that Michael keeps talking about in here. Michael saying that you won't know which view is correct, just pick one. That's wrong. Once you've seen that preterism is true, you can now try to understand the rapture. Because you will have to realize that the rapture happened if Matthew 24 and Revelation was in 70 AD. So what is the rapture? It's quite simple. It's catching up to Jesus like in a race. Jesus has won and crossed the finish line and we catch up to him and look just like Him in the new covenant. The new covenant was unveiled in 70 AD. There we go. Have fun studying. Keep the Kingdom of God advancing. He is in your midst.
*sigh* I'm sorry but you have never studied the bible. Do you read koine Greek and Hebrew? ... No? Then you have never studied the bible, you pour over a translation. You can't even read the bible without scholars providing you with a translation. have you ever thought about that? I know what pretetism is and I think it isn't worth my time to be honest. But you're welcome to it.
I was with you on most of that until you said it's about "catching up with Jesus like a race" because that idea just isn't there. Partial preterism is fine. Going with meeting Jesus in the air at his return (but judgement immediately after)
Post tribulation return of Christ does not belong with any form of rapture theology or blessed hope assignment of the the term and rapture. The "blessed hope" is of the resurrection to a rewarded life with God and Christ. As post tribulation is the second coming of Christ and is associated with the first resurrection. It is a false teaching that every Christian will be raised for the first tribulation as specified in Revelation 20:4-6 Revelation 20:5 excludes all who are not in the first resurrection from working with the Lord in the millennium period. Stating plainly "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished." The Revelation 20:5 and the "last day resurrection" statements in John 6, John 11 and John 12 discount Mr Heiser's view of a prolonged waiting period before all Christians entering the kingdom of God. Mr Heiser's view also side steps Hebrews 9:27 and 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 of which the latter targets Christians specifically.
We're here 'til we ain't. Thank God for each and every day.
Wow, I sure miss Dr. Heiser. And I’m also so so grateful we are not saved by our eschatology.
And Heiser has the "good fortune " of knowing now.
@@kleineroteHex indeed he does.
Not saved by eschatology is good thing, because he was completely off. Study out preterism.
@@Spirit-FilledMindset I have, my brother.
@@Spirit-FilledMindset Yeah, Preterism is great, especially Partial Preterism. I'm pretty sure he holds to that, so idk how he's wrong.
I used to hold on to the classic dispensationalism, but here, later in life after decades of study have come down to the resurrection and not a rapture theology. And I also can't get my eyes off of what happened in 70 a.d., and how much of Matt 24 matches those events very clearly. But the bottom line for me is this: God loves us. And I don't believe God is a sadist. We were not made for wrath. But I also know we are warned over and over to be ready. Every human that has ever lived, or is alive at His return will be judged on the great day of judgement. That much we do know, and that is what you need to prepare for. Keep your lamps full.
@@achoice2bmade You were correct, but weak faith in the truth changed you. Some preterist got to you.
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@achoice2bmade Were not meant for the second death .
Not appointed to wrath?
You are a fallen angel that was judged to die like men.
You wanted Satan's flesh party, you got it. It's your convenant with death.
Only one Gospel:
The Gospel of Reconciliation.
Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom
to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself.
We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness.
If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever.
Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods).
REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
I was once where you were and now where you are. Scriptures interpret Scriptures. That's why I'm a partial - preterist.. I've held this view for many years.
In Gulliver's Travels the Lilliputians are divided by those called the big ender's and the small ender's. Dr Heiser is not trying to make you one or the other, he is trying to stop people going to war over it.
Love me some dr Mike Heiser
My friend was fond of saying (with regards to eschatology) that he was a “pan-theorist” as in “everything will pan out in the end, so the details don’t matter”.
I like him
@@FishermensCornerme too 😊
Yup, the King of kings will come when the Father tells him, when the last of the gentiles comes into the fold. Do we really have to know when? How?
The details definitely matter. If you think the world is meant to get worse and worse until Jesus pulls you off the planet while he destroys it, you're more likely to withdraw from society and _let_ everything get worse. If you think the world will get better and better as we Christianise the entire planet before Christ's triumphant return, you'll likely be more willing to get involved making that so. It's a huge deal.
@@MeanBeanComedy That first assumption is a non sequitur because it assumes motives. One can believe the world will get worse without withdrawing from it precisely because we don’t know when Christ will return, and so we continue to occupy till He returns (and by “occupy” I mean one will do all one can to maximize good and minimize evil).
Moreover, those who assume the world will get better are just as likely to withdraw from society under the assumption that it will get better regardless of how little one does. To be clear, I’m not claiming this to be the case, but only noting that if one makes assumptions about the motivations of others, one can draw any conclusion one wishes.
I have long ago thought that eschatology was a thing God was not displaying clearly for his own good reasons. This puts meat on the bones of my thoughts.
Only he knows that day
Keeps us humble, and watchful.
Thanks brother. See you in the air.
Never knew there were so many scenarios. Seems I was Amillenial for 62 yrs. and did not know it. Now, two yrs. after mandates took our careers, I have changed my eschatology and also some other views in my life. Yes, filtering in Bible study has a major impact on your views, but so does personal experience and timing. There will be many arguments in favour of certain views or not. We are still human; we will differ on interpretation. We will even differ with our own opinion should we experience influence(s) that influence our thinking! My big jump came as stated - started with Covid lockdowns and got turbo-boosted with mandates. I have lost connection with many people, not just ex. colleagues of 24 years. I believe the Lord has moved my life on to a different lane and rapture has become extremely valuable now that I have time to actually study scripture. Pre-trib view is apparent to me now as scripturally correct with the new filter I have been blessed with. Now I can get on with what is truly important; standing still, looking up to Jesus and seeing the salvation of the Lord! Maranatha!
You're going to be disappointed when the invented rapture never happens and the world is gradually Christianised.
@@MeanBeanComedy I concede there is a possibility that am wrong, but you do not. So, what are you afraid of, because I am willing to stake my life on my belief of the pre-trib rapture. God has changed my understanding; I did not go looking for a new prophecy on eschatology. Yet you are the one who cannot concede; will not concede because I believe you are willfully ignorant, and I pray your lack of scriptural doctrine and your biblical hermeneutics will be altered to see that the time is almost gone. The time of the Gentiles came to an end when I was a young man and I did not put time, prayer and effort as I should have to even come close to being exposed to truth of our times. I had to just about lose everything before I was able to hear what the Lord was trying to show me. So, if this is a joke or you think meanbeancomedy allows you privileges that surmount to transferring your fears onto others, good luck. Otherwise if you are insecure but in earnest about doctrinal truths, you will do your own homework (more than 500 hrs) and discover what many are today, these last final days before we are taken up into the clouds as scripture says. Even 5 hrs research will make a difference. Stop being lazy and read your Bible! Maranatha!
@@user-qi4qc5wl6b How are you staking your life on this? I'm not staking my life on anything; I'm just living out Historic Apostolic Christianity like my elder brothers and sisters in the Church. There's no staking anything on any of this here unless you're withdrawing from the world and becoming pietist due to your Dispensationalism.
For the love of mercy!. Just be ready. Receive Jesus as savior before it's too late!. ❤❤
I would have loved to talk to this guy
There are things that we do need to know. There are things that we don't need to know. What we must worry about is how we take those things to heart and how we obey the things in the first category.
This was a great overview and greatly appreciated.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
Romans 5:6-11
We are waiting the return in service of our Glorious Bridegroom ❤❤❤❤
I pray the world will as Jesus said...be known by our love for each other.
Division and discord is not of the body of Christ. Put it far from us.
I believe there can be different views, but folks don't have to break fellowship over it. Believe me, there is controversy in the false faiths, too!
@@kristenspencer9751Yeah, but most of this, "Oh dear, please stop arguing!!1" is coming from old ladies that don't understand how men debate, argue, and communicate. Very few people are actually breaking fellowship over these debates. It is more likely to bring people together.
This was great. Thank you
It would be valuable to reexamine this topic with an emphasis on the events that occurred before, led up to, and included the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Josephus provides fascinating insights from this era that some might interpret as fulfilling end-time prophecies. Furthermore, a compelling argument exists that none of the 83 individuals named in the New Testament wrote any texts after the 70 AD destruction. Delving into this perspective could greatly enhance the discussion.
I understand too little from the Bible. I leave the doctrinal conflicts to the experts. Absolutely great methodology that of doctor Heiser.
You shouldn’t. Its your duty to search for these answers, to study for them. Don’t be intellectually and spiritually lazy.
I used to be a pre-trib dispensationalist and after studying it for myself and chewing on the arguments made for post-trib I noticed that my faith has been more steadfast. Knowing that one day I will be hunted down to the point of death made me add weight to my belief. Would you die for what you believe in? Its easy to believe when you believe you conveniently get taken out of the hard part.
As Mike has said many times, you have the splitters and the joiners, but you also have (in prophecy) the already, but not yet. There are things in eschatology and prophecy that are not meant to be understood until the right time.
I just want to know the Truth. I don't care about sticking with a certain end times belief system.
I think it's not clear, therefore we may never know 100 percent. That's ok. Believers will be saved by trusting Jesus. We won't go to hell. Hallelujah! Jesus said no one Knows the day or the hour no, not the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. So, I'm good with that.
I think it's just the final coming - period. And that Christians may have to endure some terrible things, as we did before. God promises He won't allow us to be tempted above our ability to endure it.❤
Agree. I absolutely will let go of ANY belief that isn’t the truth..
I jumped off the Hal Lindsey train in the early 80’s so when Tim LaHaye came by riding the “Left Behind” train, I didn’t buy a ticket.
@@annchovey2089Smart! 😎👍🏻
This man is further exploring the heavens as he is now with the Father. He taught and shared the Bible with so many! Wonder what his assignment will be ? Will be interesting to find out! God Bless
Really, it all comes down to trust... Will you trust God?
Is He worthy of trust?
No worries, He reigns for ever more!
I TRUST HIM
Also, it occurs to me that Satan is real focused on muddying the waters of this subject.
A Blessed Hope must anger him a lot....he KNOWS this Hope means his time is about to end
Praise GOD
Child of God.
Whenever Jesus returns, we are to set our faces like flint and with the Holy Spirits help, be overcomers of all that this world throws at us.
May He bless you and keep you.😊
The details definitely matter. If you think the world is meant to get worse and worse until Jesus pulls you off the planet while he destroys it, you're more likely to withdraw from society and _let_ everything get worse. If you think the world will get better and better as we Christianise the entire planet before Christ's triumphant return, you'll likely be more willing to get involved making that so. It's a huge deal.
Anybody see the Messiah 2030 videos? That's my position (Parts 1 to 3). I can't speak to Part 4 yet as it hasn't come out.
Anyone who sets dates is a fool and should not be trusted.
Two points:
Firstly, the entire church can be taken prior to experiencing wrath, yet every person saved during that wrath is added to the church (Revelation 12:11 & Revelation 20:4).
Secondly, WHEN can be determined by realizing the rapture is connected to a resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Isaiah 26:19-21 teaches of a resurrection of singing (ie - joy & worship) that takes place *_before_* the indignation of the LORD is poured out on the inhabitants of the earth!!!
Before the indignation is pour out. That resurrection is followed by an invitation to his people to “come” and shelter themselves in their chambers until the indignation is past.
This resurrection is the key to determining when the rapture occurs.
Many denominations consider rapture theology unscriptural. There is 1 return of Christ period. The early church did not have a split view of His return. John Nelson Darby and Scofield created a construct called Dispensationalism in late 1800s . It's always good to know the foundations of belief.
Only English speaking countries teach the rapture.
Really? Please explain @@annchovey2089
The rapture was taught by Paul and John and Christ and poly carp and iraneus. Read the didache. It way before Darby and others. Puritan writers were well before Darby as well. You are speaking nonsense
@@Tdizzle7775That's not the rapture. That's about Christ's return. Not at all the same thing.
No. Read Iranaeus, Against Heresies, book 5, chapter 30 on till the end. Very clear he spoke of the church leaving and then the tribulation. @MeanBeanComedy
Pre-wrath doesn’t have the church removed before the tribulation, just before the wrath is poured out. The wrath is everything that happens in the Day of the Lord, so to take a pre-wrath position just aligns with 1st Thess 4:13 onwards. Wrath and tribulation are not the same thing. Wrath and great tribulation are not the same thing. 1st Thess 5:1-10 shows us that the “Day of the Lord” is when the wrath of God is poured out, but we are not appointed to it
I was glad to see Pre-Wrath mentioned. The Church is exempt from wrath. We are not exempt from natural disaster, war, plague, famine, and especially not exempt from persecution.
The Israelites lived safely and securely behind their blood covered doorposts during the 10th plague, just prior to The Exodus. For that matter they were totally unaffected by the 7 last plagues. No reason God’s people won’t do as well at the end of this world.
The Day of the Lord, the Tribulation, The Time of Jacob's trouble...they are ALL the same thing. They are the seven year period described in Daniel. The only difference between them is that the Time of Jacob's Trouble, and the Day of the Lord apply only to Israel and constitute the second half of the seven week period. We know the Tribulation is the WRATH of God right from it's start because even the Christ rejectors hiding in the caves and mountains as described in Revelation ch 6 , say it is the WRATH of God. People make the mistake of equating the scriptures that only apply to Israel , to the church. This is the mistake that people have made with Mathew ch 24 which is clearly is about Israel, not the church.
Everyone and I mean EVERYONE does not take into account the Thunders in Revelation. John was commanded not to list them. But they are just as important as the seals, trumpets and bowls.
interesting
Yes .. so I did a word study.
In revelation it says that the meanings of the thunders was sealed. We are not given an explanation.
Revelation 10: 2-4 KJV
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
To research "thunder" and "thunders" I looked up every time the words were used in the KJV bible using the BLB Blue Letter Bible app.
Its was exciting to read and consider what I found.
The word "thunder" appears 19 times in the KJV bible.
The word "thunders" appears 6 times in the KJV bible.
( thunder is associated with sound, power, judgement and many times anger. )
In Greek, Aramaic, and, Hebrew,
thunder often regarded as the voice of God (Job 37:2; Psalm 18:13; 81:7; compare John 12:29)
More examples:
2 Samuel 22:14
The Lord thundered from heaven; the voice of the Most High resounded.
In Exodus 19:16
Thunder accompanied the giving of the law to Moses at Sinai.
Job 37:5
God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend.
Psalm 29:1
The voice of the LORD is over the waters; the God of glory thunders, the LORD thunders over the mighty waters. The voice of the LORD is powerful; the voice of the LORD is majestic. The voice of the LORD breaks the cedars; the LORD breaks in pieces the cedars of Lebanon.
Refresh my memory?
Well, I guess that would be because the Spirit doesn’t want us to take them into account - right?
Almighty God chose not to reveal the content.
That's good enough for me.
I plan to go vertical before His terrible, righteous wrath comes down.
Got Jesus ? Time is short 🌷
30:12 Not all Saints are those made during the Church Age. There will be Tribulation Saints, also. Those Old Testament believers in the (promised) Messiah are also to be considered Saints.
A ''saint'' is one who has been saved, due to their acceptance of Christ.
What a great legacy he leaves us xx
Everyone always makes the parable of the 10 virgins about the oil and about some leaving to go buy more and therefore missing out on going in with the others and the Groom,
but usually the teachers leave out the main point, they are waiting for the Groom to come and for the wedding feast to begin - which by tradition always occurred when darkness was all around, *_needing their lamps to see what was happening and where they were going._*
I've often wondered about the meaning of that parable and how it possibly applies to the Church and to me, but after listening to so many teachers trying their best to stretch the word and force their various meanings onto Scripture, I no longer wonder about it, except perhaps those who have decided they will not be harpazo'd before the week of the outpouring of God's wrath, who just may be allowed to stay right where they have taught and chosen to believe they will be,
- right here on earth calling up after those taken to be let in.
Makes one wonder.
*_"Before The Wrath"_* - watch that documentary for a better option.
None of us really know. Obviously, based on the coming outpouring of Gods wrath in the tribulation period, I hope and pray the pre tribulation prediction is correct. However, it is most important that we surrender to our Lord and follow Him daily by staying in His Word. This is so we are strong in the Lord no matter what happens or when the rapture occurs.
Signs are key. Another word for signs is prophecy. There can be no unfulfilled prophecy before the Rapture. This requirement should inform your attitude towards imminency.
Yes there can, the marriage supper is after the rapture (for modern dispensationists) therefore it's unfulfilled prophecy when the rapture occurs.
There is quite a lot of prophecy unfulfilled at the time of the rapture.
I don't see how people can deny that Antiochus Epiphanies instituted the first abomination of desolation mentioned in Daniel. And almost as strongly as that seems obvious, that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 a.d. wasn't the second
The Lord Jesus spoke of the abomination that makes desolate correct? Mathew 24 15. It will occur again. The Jews will rebuild the temple and he will sacrifice in the Holy place
@@JonCamron it has already occurred TWICE. Once with Antiochus, and then again in A.D. 70 as Jesus predicted
God has recently brought to my attention that in Mathew ch 24 when Jesus said "Unless those days had been shortened even the elect wouldn't survive, He was referring to Zechariah 13:8-9 which says ...
" In the whole land" declares the Lord, "two thirds will be struck down and perish ; yet one third will be left in it. This third I will bring into the fire ; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold."
This one third is the "elect" that Jesus was talking about. Zechariah is the OT version of Revelation except it's all about what happens to Israel. But all of Mathew ch 24 is about what will happen to Israel. That's why Jesus started His answer to the question of what is the sign of the end, with the "abomination of desolation" and even mentions Daniel...as you aptly brought up.
The details of eschatology definitely matter here. If you think the world is meant to get worse and worse until Jesus pulls you off the planet while he destroys it, you're more likely to withdraw from society and _let_ everything get worse. If you think the world will get better and better as we Christianise the entire planet before Christ's triumphant return, you'll likely be more willing to get involved making that so. It's a huge deal.
I was questioning myself if my view of the return of Christ is not what I was thinking of ; Do I still believe he’s coming or will I loose my faith? I have to accept that I have to trust the Lord, still keep believing and adjust to whatever situation cause He loves us no matter how the things will develop. I HAVE Change some of my views and looking through scripture to let it says what is says and not what I would like it to say
The chapters 1-3 about the church do not mention any of the disasters in 4-18, and vice versa. That is remarkable. The observation is independent of any linearity issue, since it is a thematic issue.
Is there another video of this teaching,that is easier to hear and read ?
What about 1st chapter of revelation these things must shortly come to pass.
I have come to a partial preterist view on that. It all comes down to what date a scholar says the book of revelation was written. If pre 70 a.d., then most of Matt 24 happened when Rome sacked Jerusalem (putting an end to sacrifices etc as Jesus said, it ended the Temple system completely and it hasn't been in place since) if after, some say 90 a.d., then that would make the whole rapture this and that seem plausible. But each of us needs to study that all out. A book that helped me was "Victorious Eschatology" by Dr.s Eberle and Trench
@@danettecross8608 the event in which the temple was defiled was before the time of Christ. The historical character who committed the atrocity is Antiochus IV Epiphanes. He goes into the Holy of Holies and sacrifices a pig (so the story goes). It's a pre-curser/type and shadow thing. Rather, I think Satan had his timing off. The first time Satan attempted a one world order was at the tower of Babel. God intervened b/c not yet God's timing. Next, Satan got it wrong again by defiling the temple (thinking he was fulfilling the Daniel prophecy). The actions of Antiochus (Anti-Ochus...the name even sounds like anti-christ) were inspired by Satan. But his timing was again in vain. So I don't believe the Daniel event has occurred yet. With no temple, there can be no sacrifice. But I think the temple will be rebuilt perhaps during the first part of the great Trib after the anti-Christ has come on the scene and proclaims a 7 year peace treaty for Israel. With peace (not war with neighbor countries) they will be able to devote 100% attention and funding towards the temple. Then, with the temple constructed, the AC will declare himself to be god. Of course, it's all very interesting and glad folks are at least discussing it. Nothing wrong with a good discussion!
@@danettecross8608revelation was written after 70 AD so your theory fails
@@Tdizzle7775 Well, not all theologians believe that. And actually, you have no solid proof that it was or there would not be a very robust discussion going on about it. Pray over it and have your own conviction. I have mine.
Well, after the thousand years, Satan is released for a time
and God has a reason for that. You'll see how quickly mankind abandons God and sides with his enemy.
Little season, is that now?
Satan has already been loosed
@@pastrami00Yeah, that's the more reasonable reading of the text.
Pre-wrath does not separate the rapture from the second coming. Here is a place where we must define our terms. The Greek translated coming is parousia. Literally "presence" or "coming and continued presence."
His "coming" initiates a series of events. The sealing of the 144K, the rapture, His wrath being poured out, His return the rest of the way to set foot on earth for the battle of Armageddon and to set up His kingdom on earth for the millennium.
Here is where I, interject I guess, something I never heard dear brother Marv or anyone since speak to.
If you read through the 6th seal you see the heaven depart as a scroll when it is rolled together and then those who are going to be "left" saying hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne. (The church will be looking up with the occurrence of the cosmic disturbances of vs 12-13 for our redemption draweth nigh.)
His, and then our, presence will be seen in the throne room while His wrath is being poured out.
The only thing we know about how long that takes is the 5th (if memory serves) trumpet that lasts 5 months.
The speaker said we can’t call being caught up the blessed hope if it happens after the tribulation why not I believe It’s a blessed hope to know we will be gathered to the Lord even if it’s after the tribulation
Hope is not the right word if it means that.
Because then it wouldn't be called the blessed hope, it would be called the blessed promise.
@@SavedbyGraceAlone84 lol ok if that’s what you think lol
@@paulgerhardt6499 Are we not promised salvation by grace through faith? (Ephesians 2:8-9). If the Lord promises, He delivers. Therefore that's what we have to look forward to. I'm explaining it to you in a grammatical sense for @LastFellowship's reply to your original comment. Hope would not be the right word to use from a linguistic stand point when referring to the salvation that the Lord promised to those who have faith in Him and what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross. Does that make more sense now or where you intentionally just being snarky just for the sake of it?
@@SavedbyGraceAlone84 not sure how that shows we will be raptured ect your just deducting from the verses in the Bible to make it says things that you interpret but if you inductively study the verses you will not find a pre trib rapture as the blessed hope inductive study/breaking down each verse word by word and in the context will allow you to see clearly what is being said deductive study is how cults start Mormons Jehovah’s Witness ect
aside from the text study, the stories indicate deliverance.
I love Heiser but he was a text nerd, not a theologian. Dr. Ken Johnson is both, and recognizes the necessity of the pre-Daniel’s 70th Week-Departure of the Church
Just read 1Cor 15:52. At the sound of the last trumpet.
When did he give this talk?
I ask because of the "All rapture positions assume" in the thumbnail.
Um no, no they don't.
The rapture occurs at His coming. Parousia in the Greek. Literally presence or coming and continued presence. While His Day of the Lord wrath is being poured out, that presence, along with His church, will be in the clouds, overseeing.
This occurs at some point during the 2nd half of Daniel's 70th week.
After the 7th vial (bowl) is poured out, Christ comes the rest of the way down to earth with His church for the battle of Armageddon then to set up His millennial reign.
See the Pre-wrath view in "7 Pre-trib Problems and the Pre-wrath Rapture" available on this site.
It's been out there for over 30 years people.
Rebuilding the temple is meaning bringing all to believe in Jesus....especially those evil hateful things that call themselves the chosen
The "Christ" that indwells us is the word of God. Hos 6:3 John 8:31, & 47 Matt 7:23 2Tim 3:15This is the "personal relationship" being attatched to the "true vine"
❤❤❤DOVE POINT BIBLE STUDY❤❤❤
Christ should never be put in quotes. He is not a symbol. He is very real.
@@SpaceDad42 😅😅😅 bless your heart
I am pro return of Jesus ❤
@ 27:00 Church in Heaven or on earth? Rev 4. I believe the reason we read about Saints (genuine believers) being on the earth is b/c these are the ones who come to faith AFTER the rapture. God sends 2 witnesses to earth and they preach for 3.5 years until they are killed. In the Book of Rev., John "sees" billions of people in white robes and asks "Who are they?" John is told they are the saints who died during the tribulation. The Bible speaks of those on the earth who do NOT take the mark of the beast. Those are hunted down and slain. Don't you think it's a marvelous show of God's goodness and mercy that He cares about people still on the earth after the rapture? For God so loved the WORLD. And even though the world is without the presence of the church...the technology we have today ensures that although the witnesses are in Jerusalem, the whole world can watch and listen to these two figures preach the Gospel of Christ. And they will be successful in reaching both Jews and non-Jews alike.
You need to answer when the wrath of God begins, then you will have your answer.
John 17 : 15 and 20.
If the educated Jews missed Jesus coming on the donkey - how much more should we get closer to Jesus so we don’t miss the truth and get deceived - the owner who went away and gave his employees charge is very sobering - so many comments I read especially from the US always focus on getting out of here rather than Jesus wanting to reclaim the earth
I would be curious which churches/denominations hold which belief.
Generally Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, Methodists, and some Baptists believe in amillennialism or post-millennialism.
Most Evangelicals, usually Non-Denom or Baptists, believe in premillennialism.
Once you look at it like that, it changes things. Same for infant Baptism and the presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
Church will experience the tribulation (persecution), but wrath is for those who take the mark of the beast.
Who told you that?
Jesus is the one who defines "The Great Tribulation" as the last half of Daniel's seventieth week. It's a 3 1/2 year period of time. Why not use specificity when talking about these things?
Jesus himself in the book of revelations states twice in a row that the seals are part of the wrath of God. Therefore the great tribulation includes the 21 judgments of seals, trumpets and bowls. And if the antichrist has to be present during the first half of the week to give rise to the abomination of desolation, that indicates that the great tribulation is made up of a period of 7 years. That Jesus refers to that moment in Matthew 24 as "tribulation such as has never existed on earth" is because God's most severe judgments on a geological level will come at that time and because during those 3 and a half years Satan will manifest himself without any restriction. . But that does not mean that the great tribulation will last 3 and a half years....Prophecy must be analyzed taking into account the complete map that the Word of God reveals to us. We should not draw conclusions from an isolated verse.
Wow. A lot of arguing. Too much for me while trying to study Truth. 😢
70 A.D.
Two separate things.
The issue with comparing Apostle James' reference to a translation of the Masoretic goes away if you go to the Septuagint.
Nevertheless, "tabernacle" is succoth- sheep fold. David was the shepherd of Israel.
What is the purpose of the tribulation? Who is it meant for?
Wrong question. What is a tribulation and if someone goes through one what is the effect?
That question is a better one.
Well thinking about it, if you were not all in in belief then tribulations occurs including taking the true believers wouldn’t some that were wushu wouldn’t they commit all the way even after the tribulation and therefore have to endure until their death. Just thinking😊
There are 70 “weeks.” Sixty-nine of the 70 bring us to Jesus. The last week remains; in the midst of that week, or three and half years Jesus is crucified,” the 70th week ends with the stoning of Stephen. Why cut out the 70th week and move it to the last days? It makes no sense from the reading of Daniel. All the rapture theories collapse like a house of cards!
Of course they do. It's an invention created to make Christians lazy and complacent, and it's worked really well on the (thankfully few on the global scale) American Evangelicals who took the bait.
I was waiting for him to discuss that option but he didn’t. I wonder why? It seems pretty obvious to me. 🤷♀️
Are "saints" only in the "ecclesia" or are they also in the redeemed of Israel i.e. the 144,000 in Revelation? The simple meaning of "saint" is one who is set apart.
Saints is a word that is used to represent the word "holy ones" in Greek (Agioi).
Its not a very meaningful translation of the word - it obscures it rather than makes it clear.
@@LastFellowship, Being that we are looking at Revelation, don't you think that the Hebrew meaning is more appropriate קֹדֶשׁ which does strongly lean to apart or separate. It is used extensively throughout the OT. John's gospel and Revelation are very Hebrew in character and again, as Heiser points out chapters 4-18 of Revelation are almost exclusively focused on Israel.
@@Saratogan
Only one Gospel:
The Gospel of Reconciliation.
Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom
to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself.
We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness.
If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever.
Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods).
REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
So just to mention ( because it makes sense to me ) the 4 gospels ( written by 4 different persons ) cannot be the same as 1 revelation ( written by 1 person) SO... it ( revelation ) is not 4 people seeing the same thing and expressing it somewhat differently. It is ONLY 1 person seeing the event . SO ...again 1 is not the same as 4 . !!
In the old Testament there are saints. These are old Testament saints. In the new Testament saints are the church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. But Revelation , except for the letters to the church's, is an old Testament book. The saints are the Jews.
But the Saints which is the church is mentioned through the Revelation.
Thank to Mike, who I deeply revere, he took the pain to precisely lay out the logical connexion of these different approaches.
But there is a much shorter way of clarification that just arose more and more in the last year. All these endtime schemes are based on the idea of a clear differentiation between the "church" and "israel", which is a dispensations presupposition.
Now if we realize that Christ has only ONE body - as clearly stated not only in Ephesians - that the mystery of god was to make one out of the two, namely Israel AND the gentiles, we must accept that god has not two ways of salvation, i.e. for the church separately from Israel - as dispensationalism teaches.
So there is no theological ground for constructing a different eschatology for the "church" separate from Israel.
Hence a protein rapture before the tribulation for Israel has no theological reasoning anymore. But the thing is that many eschatological teachers are not aware of this heretical basis (Dispensationalism).
Actually there is no hermeneutical reason at all to split up the 490 years of Daniel and project one week (7 years) into the far future.
Also there is no real argument of not following anymore the protestant interpretation of the Antichrist (Luther, Calvin, Guys etc.) instead of waiting for someone new worldruler to come in a newly built temple.
I'm missing the historical approach to eschatology. It's all like inventing the wheel anew. And to close with an important thought of Mike: you cannot possibly understand, interpret revelation without profound understanding the OT and it's allusions to it.
Making one new man out of the two is YOUR CONDITION.
You are a fallen angel yoked with a demon. Until your eyes become single (Christ only), your judgment to die like men continues.
Only one Gospel:
The Gospel of Reconciliation.
Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom
to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself.
We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness.
If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever.
Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods).
REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
Maybe the sign in the sky of the Son of Man was the sign observed by Constantine, and Christ's coming started unfolding into cultivating the world for centries
Maybe that's just what God used like He did with Cyrus??
maybe? a doctrine in search of evidence, wishful false assumption.
The reason the "church" is not mentioned after revelation 4 is because the Letter is TO the churches. It's like writing a letter and you keep repeating the name of the person you're writing to. You don't do that. You address them, then write your letter.
Yes 100%. I also noticed that during the breaking of the 5th seal in Rev 6:11 after the martyrs ask God when their blood will be avenged God tells them that must rest until the full number of their brothers are killed. If the church has been rapture who is being martyred during the 5th seal?
👍 Also it does not use/mention the word church (ekklesia) when referring to the believers who are in heaven in those chapters either but they are the saints the church
@@chrispompu1019The tribulation saints…the people who get saved during the tribulation.
What about us that believe the seven years was Jesus ministry to the stoning of Steven? Daniel 9 is done.
Maaaaan, 'THE CHURCH' is actually BELIEVING JEWS-----At MtSinai GOSPEL was preached oer HEBREWS 4:2, and it failed.
However!
Yeshua said through his prophets that HE will change their hearts and write HIS Yorah onto their hearts, so no longer on heavy tablets dragged behind ---JEREMIAH 31:33 and EZEKIEL 36:26
At second Pentecost, HIS Spirit was given again (just like at MtSinai per ISAIAH 63:11) and this time HIS Jewish Bride =EDAH became empowered.
Anyone from tbe nations joining believing Jews become grafted.
Rapture will be on YomTeruah, fall season one year. Then 10 days of Awe untill YomKippur, HIS wrath will be relentless and then HIS arrival back for Sukkot as the King first, and priest subsequently.
No man knows - Seek ye first the kingdom of God.
Stop worrying about it.
I’m preterist
You’re lost and close to a heretic if you’re not already. Preterm is utterly absurd and false. It’s unbiblical at the very least.
Same. 😎👉🏻👉🏻
Same. 😎👉🏻👉🏻
Same. 😎👉🏻👉🏻
If the word ekklesia /church not being used in those chapters 4-18 means the church is absent on earth then then that would mean ekklesia not being used to describe belivers in means the church is absent from heaven in those chapters too using that reasoning
I believe The saints on earth and in heaven in those chapters are part of the church is a more clear interpretation
If I'm not mistaken, in Rev, John sees saints but believers are also called "Bride", ("The Spirit and the bride say 'come!') so in this NEW realm, the concept of "church" would be irrelevant (?) I think what folks forget is that removing believers from the earth is part of God's wrath. I mean, can you imagine a world without the Christian influence? Integrity, love, patience, justice...not to mention no outreaches (soup kitchens, drug rehab, charity etc.) and all the talent and occupations suddenly un-filled would bring chaos! So I don't view it at all as "escapism" and neither did the Apostle Paul! Paul believed and wrote about believers snatched away from the earth before the coming of the A.C. yet he was frantic for 2 things: 1) get people saved 2) get believers fully mature in the faith before Christ returned.
So many differing opinions indicates to me that no one really knows and that they have their fav theory, whether it is based upon Scripture that records the Words of Jesus or of those of Paul or others. Truth is....we don't know but we can sure to talk it to death. For what little I know or understand about all of this, I'll lean on the Lord's words in Matt 24:29-31 and simply not worry about it.
With Dan, there are 13 tribes. Judah was a one-tribe nation. Israel was the rest of the tribes.
Every time I hear someone promoting the rapture position and its elements, I think of the pharisees and the like who were in the midst of the Messiah and refused to believe him. Jesus gave spot on prophecies on what happened and so many to still refuse to believe historical truth, and for what?
First of all, you're only going to understand the rapture if you use the only Bible that contains the truth, the KJV Bible. 1 Thessalonians 4 :16-17 clearly state we're caught up at the last trump. That means the church goes through the seven seals and seven trumpets. Wrath begins at the pouring out of the vials of God's wrath.
Im no Theologin, expert. I have made an attempt to try to understand what is arguably the most "controversial" book in History. I dont feel confident I have much right, I do however understand the basic premise. I have opinions, thats all, and I know this is a much debated topic, but I just dont see what some claim to in scriptures. For example, Revelation 20. It talks about all the souls. Those that were martyred, and 2nd death has no power, and the rest sleep until the 1000 years is over. Why no mention of those "snatched away"? Surely, if you are so good, God just takes you, you would get the reward of reigning with him the 1000 years, like those beheaded for his name, but it isnt mentioned? I wonder why?
Little season
In most of these questions that divide people, there is a central fact - believing one thing or another changes nothing about one's central faith. The Trinity concept is yet another of these uselessly divisive beliefs. These questions have no impact on your faith whatsoever, but many of them presume that you can fathom God, and what exactly he is, which is pure folly in its very essence.
Rapture already happened around the time of apostle Peter death.
We dont believe this is all there is to the earthly Kingdom.
We dont think we are just this, end of story.
We believe the Kingdom is here, but being built. And wrestling. But events here bring about the increase of Christ's reign
not in the bible.
I have a hard time following that logic when you can obviously see the way the world is going at this point.
@SavedbyGraceAlone84
We believe the thy Kingdom come and increasing on the earth. With Communion with the Saints in Heaven.
It's a tug of war that we knowingly are engaged in for the healing of the nations. We reign through serving them and leading them to peace.
See Zechariah 14.
The Church takes that position.
@@katiehav1209 Deuteronomy 18
Occult Practices
9 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the Lord your God.
Psalm 115:17 ESV / 87 helpful votes
The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 ESV / 78 helpful votes
And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
1 Timothy 2:5 ESV / 74 helpful votes
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
2 Corinthians 11:14 ESV / 60 helpful votes
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
Isaiah 8:19 ESV / 56 helpful votes
And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?
1 Timothy 4:1 ESV / 55 helpful votes
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
whether the Bible says pre, mid, or post is not one I care a whole lot about. Though I will say I am more comfortable with a post trib rapture, purely because it doesn't exactly seem fair to me that those people who will be saved during the rapture will have no brothers to lead them through the tribulation, thereby making them fend for themselves.
I don't know if pre-trib scholars believe this, but whenever I talk with laymen who are pre-trib, it seems more as if they hold to that position more out of fear of enduring the pain of the tribulation than anything. I had a conversation with someone who said that because it's supposed to be the worst suffering in all of human existence, God will deliver His people out of it. Which made me think of the Slavery in Egypt, Exile to Babylon, the conquest of Rome, and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Those were not exactly easy things to go through, yet God's people endured all of them. Then you have the Persecution of Christians throughout the ages in HORRIBLE situations who endure awful things. We as followers of God have endured a lot and if we hold fast to Him, why can't we consider Pauls perspective that this is merely a "Light momentary affliction"? So if the Bible teaches a Pre-Trib rapture, I'll be all for it, but I'm not inclined to hold to it merely because it's gonna be scary or painful.
It helped me understand better to know that the tribulation is God's Wrath upon the earth, but there is a verse that says believers are not appointed unto wrath. "Wrath" is not the same word as eternal judgement which comes later. As for the rapture, there's a verse in the Bible where Paul writes that we shall go to meet Him in the air, and to COMFORT one another with these words. If the rapture comes at the end when Christ is coming back DOWN to rule and reign with us during the 1,000 year Millenium, why, then, do we go UP? The Great Tribulation is said by Jesus to be so terrible that if He did not return at a specified time, there would be no one left alive. Also, it makes sense that removing Christians from the earth is NOT just for us, but part of God's wrath. Can you imagine a world without Christians? No soup kitchens, no prison ministry, no drug/alcohol rehab (no AA), no Christian charities, no kindness, no compassion, no truth, no integrity, no love? And think of all the talent and occupations impacted with so many people gone from the earth! That in and of itself would be chaos! We see figures in the Bible who were raptured...like Enoch in Genesis, Elijah, and Jesus (His ascension). Rather than make Christians couch potatoes, the life of Paul (who believed Jesus could come back in his day) is an example to be lived out! Paul was frantically trying to accomplish 2 things: 1) to get people saved 2) to bring saved born-again believers to maturity in the faith. Paul was not resting on his laurels twiddling his thumbs "waiting" for the rapture! That in and of itself makes me believe that the pre-trib rapture is a stronger position.
Understand why you are here. You left heaven for Satan's flesh party. Welcome to your prison.
Only one Gospel:
The Gospel of Reconciliation.
Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom
to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself.
We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness.
If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever.
Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods).
REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
I agree but to think the AntiChrist has not already been identified is to believe that God put a 2000 year time gap in a 490 year prophecy when the Catholic church claims that God put a 2000 year time gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel. How freaking absurd.
God has a history of doing things in a way that shocks and surprises everyone, even thought that bet their lives on it.
@@LastFellowship Ill change my view when someone presents an interpretation that makes more sense on the available evidence, to believe your bs means you believe the Pope has serious authority, thats how they made the claim to change it in the first place just like how they removed the 2nd amendment.
Men and their traditions are always their downfall, I was agnostic and about a year before covid GOd made me think of him. Has he spoken to me, nah, I have never heard his voice but I know he gave me the truth and until I see something that makes more sense well puhlease believe the antichrist if you want, for that is who the pope is
*_Give that man some lamp oil!_* 😁
Why does he not mention preterist
Pretty sure they're extremely small
I've noticed that most of the people that hold to dispensational premillennialism and take it as a given usually belong to the one "denominations" that holds to that fairly young belief system instead of the traditional position of Churches older than a few decades or so.
What about Matthew 24:34?
Matthew 24 is still the old testament
@@normmcinnis4102 what
some positions combine the rapture and 2nd coming.
preterist say revelation it is all historical.
And dispensationalists IGNOR history. Ahem, Matt 24 "This generation will not pass away"
@@2drsdan you ignore the meaning of generation
Meaning of This Generation - Option 1
The Greek word that is translated as “generation” in Matthew 24:34 is genea. This word means more than just “generation.” It has the idea of birth, descent, descendants, family, and race. It was even used to refer to the end times.[1]
@@donhaddix3770 Ephesians 3:21 IT NEVER ENDS > > > EVER BUT back to the verse in question, here in 34 this generation was standing right in front of Jesus while He was talking AND referring to the disciples that THEY "the disciples" would live to see the Romans destroy Jerusalem and they did. Just go ask Jesus yourself if this is true or not. Rapture Theory = the church of no effect.
@@2drsdan Matthew, not eph is at issue. I gave the Greek word and its meaning.
@@donhaddix3770 What you gave was the wrong choice among the few Greek words that Greeks use for many different occasions and uses. BUT this use is, in context, about the SUBJECT in the sentence and indeed THE WHOLE CHAPTER which is the destruction of the Temple which they had just come away from. Which was destroyed by the Romans in 70AD, fulfilling Jesus' prophecy that He states here. Why do you hold to a false teaching that dates back only to our Civil War era? Darby and Scofield were jerks that subverted the meanings of these scriptures through the commentaries in the backs and margins of their Bibles which were then picked up by DL Moody and spread across America. LIES ALL. Have you gone to Jesus and asked Him what is the truth here? I didn't think so. Could you do it, pray and ask? The Truth will free you.
In the immortal words of Chicken Little --- "The sky is falling!"
Play nice children
the 70th week was Messiahs first coming, so obvious
Try not to miss his point.
@@LastFellowship It cuts both ways friend, and at least with mine it makes sense and I dont have to add things
@@adairjanney7109 I think you are missing the point on the video.
@@LastFellowship I think you think I am missing the point, but I am not. I totally get his point but it goes towards him as well it cuts both ways, what do you think I am missing, dont worry ill be hoenst. Regardless my point is still true about the 70th week of Daniel, your point is just well be careful you THINK you are right but maybe you are not and hence I said if they have an interpretation that actually make sense then fine but they do not
Ambiguities in Mathew ch 24??? . The whole chapter is about what will happen to ISRAEL, not the church. Look at the context. Jesus is taking questions from His jewish disciples about JEWISH things, namely what will happen to Israel. Notice all the "jewish only" references Jesus uses to answer their question "What will be the sign of the end and of your coming" ....the references are, "the abomination of desolation"..."the temple"..."the sabbath"..."the rooftops"..."the Judean countryside" ..." the elect"...and perhaps even the fig tree. Regarding "the elect" , Jesus also said "Unless those days had been shortened even the elect wouldn't survive". Who are this "elect " that Jesus was talking about? We find the answer in Zechariah 13:8-9 which says...
" In the whole land" declares the Lord, "two thirds will be struck down and perish ; yet one third will be left in it. This third I will bring into the fire ; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold."
This renders Mathew ch 24 useless for supporting a post - trib rapture, but does support a pre-trib rapture.
Its sad that smart people base there understanding of God's word on what man taught them...and not what our father says and teaches...so sad
That's such a weird thing to say.
It's such a mystical thing to say I would question if you have a faith in the real Jesus or a mythological one.
Everything you know about theology or have been taught about theology comes from the bible. And every word was written by a human being and is interpreted by another human being (the translation team), and then interpreted by you or your pastor. So if you aren't believing in some weird mystical cult, what on earth are you talking about? And have you realised the hypocrisy in what you just said. Are you really telling me you learned nothing from any human being at all?
Heiser is NOT an "End Timeser" There is no rapture theory in his teaching, it's not a thing.
That doesn't mean he's right. He's been proven wrong in some of his statements.
@@eclipseeventsigns The whole rapture theory end times crap has been proven wrong time and again but will the dispensationalists listen,,,, NO.
@@2drsdan It has not been proven wrong at all. In fact, it's been proven as the proper teaching from the Bible that the apostles believed and that many of the early church fathers believed. William Watson published a book with hundreds of quotes from ancient documents. You didn't get the memo.
You are talking as if you have misunderstood the context and the goal of the presentation.
@@LastFellowship Nope. Just the facts and the truth.
Protein=pretrib, guys=Huss
23:29 "It could just mean hell. Who knows? You can go either way." 23:53 " Now this one sounds more like hell." Good grief, and this guy is a doctor? Who knows?? Seriously, that's his argument?
You can literally look up the meaning of the word in its original form. We know that the text was originally written in Ancient Greek. In both verses he cited, the word "wrath" was translated from the word ὀργή, pronounced "or-gay," Strong's concordance number G3709. The definition of ὀργή according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon? "anger, wrath, indignation."
So yeah, "wrath" quite 𝑙𝑖𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑎𝑙𝑙𝑦 means "wrath" in both of the verses that he cited. Ridiculous he didn't do his research, and yet you guys are eating it up like cake.
Only one Gospel:
The Gospel of Reconciliation.
Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom
to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself.
We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness.
If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever.
Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods).
REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
Why does his eschatology lecture not address the reality that the word "rapture" (whether in the Hebrew or Greek languages) is never used in the OT and NT and that the reality of the word "rapture" was invented in the 1800s. I don't get the contextual impression that the Hebrews, the disciples and Yeshua ever thought of a complete removal out of tribulation as a reality.
No. The greek synonym is there. Its Harpazo.
@@garywinslow7595But this Greek word is not the English word for rapture. There is no Greek word for rapture is my point, also true for Hebrew. You are thinking of Latin, thus raptura, only found in the Vulgate as far as I know. Plus the Vulgate is very western relative to the Greek and Hebrew cultures.
"An 1828 edition of Matthew Henry's An Exposition of the Old and New Testament uses the word "rapture" in explicating 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Although not using the term "rapture", the idea was more fully developed by Edward Irving (1792-1834)."
Because that is an irrelevant point. No English word occurs in the bible. The word rapture is a translation and it does occur in the bible in a Latin form (which is also a translation).
But Michael Heiser is a text scholar and doesnt deal here with the popular level issues, he does that else where.
@@davidknollhoff3942 Look at the defintions of harpazo and rapture. They don't have to be the same word, but they are equivalent. Harpazo literally means to snatch away. So what if rapture is substituted for harpazo? If you want to nit pick definitions, then you are welcome to it, but the meaning is roughly the same.
This lecture is essentially a huge waste of time. Reason being is when you actually study the Bible, all of this is incorrect. So now you have to unlearn all this. The Bible clearly shows that the rapture already happened. I know the thoughts running through your head at this moment. "You're crazy, how could you think that? We would surely know. No one has disappeared or flew up in the air!" The reason I know and that people can know the timing is if it already happened. The end of the age was in the first century. It was the end of the old covenant system with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Study out preterism. It makes more sense. It fills in the absolutely confusion and "not knowing anything" that Michael keeps talking about in here. Michael saying that you won't know which view is correct, just pick one. That's wrong. Once you've seen that preterism is true, you can now try to understand the rapture. Because you will have to realize that the rapture happened if Matthew 24 and Revelation was in 70 AD. So what is the rapture? It's quite simple. It's catching up to Jesus like in a race. Jesus has won and crossed the finish line and we catch up to him and look just like Him in the new covenant. The new covenant was unveiled in 70 AD. There we go. Have fun studying. Keep the Kingdom of God advancing. He is in your midst.
*sigh* I'm sorry but you have never studied the bible. Do you read koine Greek and Hebrew? ... No?
Then you have never studied the bible, you pour over a translation.
You can't even read the bible without scholars providing you with a translation. have you ever thought about that?
I know what pretetism is and I think it isn't worth my time to be honest. But you're welcome to it.
I was with you on most of that until you said it's about "catching up with Jesus like a race" because that idea just isn't there. Partial preterism is fine. Going with meeting Jesus in the air at his return (but judgement immediately after)
Post Millennial theology makes the most sense with the text.
Post tribulation return of Christ does not belong with any form of rapture theology or blessed hope assignment of the the term and rapture. The "blessed hope" is of the resurrection to a rewarded life with God and Christ. As post tribulation is the second coming of Christ and is associated with the first resurrection. It is a false teaching that every Christian will be raised for the first tribulation as specified in Revelation 20:4-6 Revelation 20:5 excludes all who are not in the first resurrection from working with the Lord in the millennium period. Stating plainly "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished." The Revelation 20:5 and the "last day resurrection" statements in John 6, John 11 and John 12 discount Mr Heiser's view of a prolonged waiting period before all Christians entering the kingdom of God. Mr Heiser's view also side steps Hebrews 9:27 and 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 of which the latter targets Christians specifically.
What a delusion!
The only one certainly false is dispensationalism. Not remotely close to being biblical.