@@ois999 Indeed Lepidus was likely the senior partner in the triumvirate at this time. Mark Antony was not skilled at politics, while Lepidus did politics and warfare well, and was Pontifex Maximus. At this time Octavian was likely the junior partner, given only Africa to rule - possibly viewed by both Lepidus and Mark Antony as a pawn in their own plans. Octavion was only 20 years old, which in Roman political society was still a baby, unable to hold any elected office under the traditional rules. Only his army and his status as son of Caesar had let him bypass the age requirements. Its necessary in an adaptation to reduce characters to tell the stories, and we know that Lepidus did not dominate history in the way Mark Antony and Octavian would, so I do not mind they made the decision to reduce his role. But I still have a softspot for him.
Julius: hey guys I know you’re my enemies but I’m gonna forgive you and we can just forget this ever happened (Julius dies) Octavian: well *lesson learned I guess* cue proscriptions
RandomWriter Yep, it’s ironic, they killed a man who offered them mercy, because of that being killed by his successor. Like killing Caesar because they didn’t want a king, only for Octavian to become Augustus and basically Emperor
@@mkum2141 There wasn't a lot of difference between Octavian being Augustus (which *was* his title, along with Princeps Senatus - 'First Man of the Senate') and Octavian being king, other than creating less political opposition.
While Gaius forgive them the II triumvirate didn't. The reaseon is when gaius was young sulla took over the city and proscripted some people. The horror young caesar witness make an idea in his head not to kill his enemies. Octavian was too young to witness it. Though he killed everyone who opposed him
@@swingmattuk Yes, the conspiracy to assassinate Julius Caesar was not well thought out, and probably not really as justified as we might view it through a modern lens. The conspirators lacked a good plan of what to do afterward, and it just resulted in far more bloodshed, with many of the conspirators being killed, and with Julius Caesar's named heir and nephew (Octavian) ending up becoming the sole ruler of Rome in the end. Also, while some of the things Julius Caesar did do seem extreme and Tyrannical by today's standards, understood within the historical context, Julius Caesar was actually trying to be very merciful, and wanted to avoid unnecessary killing. As far as rulers of the time go, Julius Caesar was one of the more reasonable ones. It's also easy to forget how back then, unlike today, warfare between kingdoms and empires was understandably seen as unavoidable. Today, warfare is generally obsolete. Even when a much more powerful country attempts to invade a much less powerful one, it usually ends up being a giant mess, and is remembered as a big mistake. We're seeing it again with Putin's invasion of Ukraine.
Ridiculous how Octavian's relationship with Cicero was never hinted at. Could've made those scenes more impactful. Cicero was one of Octavian's closest friends and a mentor who helped him develop into a legendary statesman.
Exactly. I wish they did a lot more with the proscriptions in the show. They each had to give up people to the other in order to remain peaceful while also gathering the necessary funds since this was a desperate measure (at first). Octavian had to give up Cicero. I forget the reason but he really didn't want to but was forced to by Antony because of one of Antony's men that Octavian insisted upon. It's so very interesting.
They had to skip over so much. No Crassus or Labienus, Lepidus is never shown as a competant general who overtakes Antony as Caesar's right hand. Nothing about Cato and Caesar's rivalry in the Senate. No real mention of the impact of Sulla or Clodius or how the Cataline conspiracy all set up the political instability that gave Caesar the chance to do what he did. I mean they covered 15 years of the second triumvirate in like 6 episodes? Would have been fun to see how unpopular Octavian was until Agripa beat Sextus in Sicily or how Antony spent years trying to undermine Octavian. Plus we really never see any of the admistration that led to the Principate.
In reality, it was exactly the other way around. Lepidus was the one who had the idea of the Proscriptions. The first name he wrote was his own brother. And it is important to note that he father made a fortune thanks to the Proscriptions of Sylla. Lepidus was far from a weak and fearful guy. Mark Antony was ok with that, as always. Octavian didn't liked the idea, but he had no other solutions. The real Lepidus and the Lepidus of the show was very different. Lepidus didn't became a Triumvir by being a stupid and weak politician of Rome. He was a very fine politician. He was a great ally of Caesar, he even took the place of Mark Anthony, when Anthony disappointed Caesar for the mess he created in Rome while he was in Egypt. Antony and Octavian would have never be able to beat the Senate without his very smart move during the war against the Senate. Lepidus was a controversial politician, even during the Roman Empire time. Many Romans historians depicted him as coward, other as a genius. But even if he loose at the end against Octavian, he remained one of the most powerful politician of Rome and outlived most of them. He wasn't a genius as Octavian, but he was a very good politician.
He was considered weak and too pompous as a leader as his soldiers deserted to Octavian's side when he went to Scilliy. He lost the battle before it even began and surrendered himself.
Octavian started as the weakest, he came back to Rome from military camp in Ilyria pretty much only in his sandals. Nobody knew him, he had no experience, victories, prestige or money with himself. He had to claw his way to everything with only Caesar's name behind. Game was horribly rigged against him and he still managed to come on top.
And Lepidus won Africa, one of the richest areas in the Empire, certainly the richest in the west, as his share of the Empire. People never recognize that.
@@TheSamuraijim87 Yeah, Africa had alot to do with Rome's grain supply as Egypt had. The only reason people think Africa was useless was cause Lepidus didn't have much territory like Antony & Octavian had, also that in Africa, it's mostly desert in the northern area, which Lepidus didn't see much in the way of conquering more land, he was stuck there. But again, Africa was one of the richest areas at that time
To be more specific, Cicero's *wife* had the most extensive spy network. Also the proscriptions were an... unsavoury part of Roman history. In a martial culture where genocide ranked amongst proscribed legitimate military tactics, something about the cold premeditated murder of people simply to get their money and deny their support to someone else is simultaniously ingenuis, and terrifying.
Dont have to chalk that up to ancient times being brutal either. China and North Korea are still doing open cleansings of its elite every now and then. And countries like the US and Russia are less brazen about it but aren't innocent of assassinations either.
and the method to do it and how it is carried out is already legal practice and everyone young and old alike when the proscriptions are invoked are not to be taken lightly especially on the names who get put on there. There has to be good reasons for putting people's names on there the wrong reasons to put someone on there will come back to bite those who did the deed in the ass decades latter is real. in that bit where his own mother tries to put a name on there with a weak ass reason and got reminded of the seriousness of it is a solid point of the severity of the practice and even those who don't care and want to do it and had not lived though it like caesar did know that even then it has to be done right other wise things will get very bloody indeed.
Exactly. It’s shocking to contemplate how sociopathic, callous and self-centred Augustus and Antony were. It’s been suggested that the reason they did it was partially because they saw what Caesar’s mercy had brought him, and that to them, it was all those people they killed, or the three of them; and that they chose themselves.
@LegoGuy87 although I love Marcus Aurelius and greatly admire him, I am also of the opinion that beards were "barbaric". It was the short haired and clean shaven style that made the Romans look unique and "civilised" in a time when almost everyone else had longer hair and beards. The fashion was also brought in by Hadrian partly because his face was greatly blemished, before him politicians had to be clean shaven to enter the senate. Short haired, clean shaven Romans for me, those were the men that put in the hardest work to build Rome into what it became.
Imperial Truth: And here I was lamenting how heavily they tax the 1% in the US and often ostracize them for being wealthy. In ancient Rome they just Vito Corleone your ass.....😳
Rome runs out of Seasons. Game of Thrones runs out of material. And yet the writers couldn't even use this as influence to put someone on top in the end.
+Octavian Augustus Hourigan Yeah Sulla had over 4000 names on his list and he executed a lot more people who were mostly just rich guys and not political enemies.
barbiquearea he had the heads of prized opponents displayed at his house. Actually though,when Crassus began to abuse the lists with the names of innocent millionaires so he could snap up their estates Sulla grew so angry that after the resulting argument they never spoke again. I know Julius Caesar had no wish to see himself as a second Sulla, hence his policy of magnamity when he should have went on a purge! When the second triumvirate was established they agreed this policy was a disaster, hence the above scene.
Octavian Augustus Hourigan And from what I heard Augustus and his supporters enacted the greatest wave of proscriptions in Rome's history. Funny how the Senate murdered Caesar because he would end up becoming another Sulla, when it was his nephew who really did them in.
+barbiquearea I think your information is a little bogus! I don't mean to be an elitest prick here but Augustus kept the executions to a minimum because everyone(himself included) remembered his youth and his kill lists! when he returned from Egypt as Augustus he was far more controlled and spairing than his previous years, only lashing out when he sensed a genuine threat. He was more controlled simply by the fact his enemies were dust and the Senate was packed with his genuine supporters.
That beard would have earned many a frown in Rome. It was expected that every Roman man to shave cleanly. The beard smacks too much of Greco influence.
2:10 This was probably one of the most fucked up things they do on the show. He was an innocent man who had done nothing bad to any of them. Had he been poor as dirt he might have lived.
It is also very accurate. The Caesarean prospriptions targeted many people who weren't even supporters of the Liberators, but we're simply wealthy Romans whose money and properties were needed to fund the campaign of the Triumvirs.
@@sync9847 They even targeted kids who inherited large sum of money. Hell, it is said that they came for one of them while he is at school and teacher gotten himself killed while trying to protect him.
That's how scary the second triumvirate was. The proscriptions are not just to rid of enemies, it's also to kill those who are rich just to take their resources.
Top Caesarians all in a room. The successor of Caesar Octivian, Caesar's 2nd in command of the army Antony, his 2nd in command in the government Lepidus, and the most senior memeber of the Julius family Atia. and one Posca. This is representation done right, such a great character.
FROM the episode "Philippi," of the HBO series "Rome." This is taken from Episode 6 of Season 2, and all content is derived from HBO; none of it is mine. Background: This is a (very) fictional depiction of the Second Triumvirate's famous proscriptions, which ordered the deaths of significant portions of the Roman Senate, the most famous victim being Marcus Tullius Cicero -- the famed orator and politician.
Thank you for making the background statement. I think that some people actually think this is a historically correct series. But that is the fun. Trying to pick out the fiction from fact. But if they don't take the time to do that then they will never know. That is ok too; it is just that being a fan of historical fiction, it hurts.
He basically knew anything that was of importance for Caesar. Which is why he probably didn't know how rich the king of the jews was, because it was out of Caesars zone of interests.
In real history Antony and Lepidus were the original masterminds behind the proscriptions and Octavian was supposedly hesitant at first (though he became quite enthusiastic soon enough)
It is disappointing how Lepidus is made out to seem like some weak toady, when he was a ruthless and clever politician who won governorship of Africa, the richest province of the west, as his prize from the Triumvirate. He was no fool. He was also the only one to die of old age. Antony committed suicide, and Augustus was (probably) murdered by Livia, or died of terrible health.
Lepidus didn't "win" Africa - it was basically dumped over to him. After Philippi his role in the triumvirate became very minor as Octavian and Antony took all the glory for destroying Caesar's killers.
@@actin9294 one doesn't need to conquer something for it to be a prize. Excepting Sicily, the richest portion of the west was Africa. He received that, and Hispania. The fact remains that Lepidus was not what was portrayed here.
@@TheSamuraijim87 no, when the triumvirate first formed, Lepidus received Hispania, Antony - Gaul and Octavian Africa. After Philippi, it was completely rearranged: Lepidus received Africa, Antony all of the East and Octavian all of Hispania and Gaul. Hispania and Gaul were the most desirable provinces: the former for its rich silver mines and the latter for its potential for expansion. Lepidus may not have been what he's depicted here, but it's universally agreed that Octavian and Antony really screwed him over after Philippi.
@@TheSamuraijim87 Technically he got the short end of the stick. He should have received Gaul and Sicily as part of the deal but those ended up going to Octavian.
12:15 PM 7/24/2014 During this scene Lucious Verenius is part of the Mafia or gang of the Aventine right? Yeah it reminds me of HBO Sopranos. Fat Tony is friends with the people at the top harassing the other families in politics. Times have changed and its not really like that anymore.
they gave luscious the Aventine and he can do what he want as long as he keep the peace and does duty work for Anthony, there was a reason the other were afraid of him.
This is what Ceaser was trying to avoid & why he welcomed back many who were agaisnt him during the civil wars as he saw the proscriptions during the first civil war as a young man, I belive he lost a few close family members to it. Essentionaly they would put names on a list and poster them in Rome and if you killed them or revealed that persons location you would get a percentage of that persons wealth as a reward, so you can imagine how quickly people turned one eachother.
Anthony’s step father was part of a treasonous plot that was exposed. The evidence was presented in front of the senate and all passed judgement against the traitors. He got much more of a trial than Cicero.
In reality this discussion was held over a few days; and it was with deep consternation that Octavian let Cicero’s name get on the list given the close relationship between Cicero and Octavian....
@@kristijangrgic9841 unlikely since Augustus gave a lot of high positions to Cicero’s son. If he feared reprisal, he could’ve just had the son killed as well. I really do think Augustus did not want Cicero on the list.
@@kristijangrgic9841 thank you, it suprises me that people still fall for the augustus propanga more than 2,000 years after, the guy was not smart, he just had a name and was lucky that the previous civil wars had wiped out all great sons of rome leaving just him antonius and lepidus
It's debatable who's ideas the proscriptions were. Augustus later would blame Antony, though no matter what he was complicit in it. I highly doubt any woman had that much influence in the proscriptions, and in all there were over three thousand of them. Also, Cicero's right hand and his head were nailed to the rostra not just his hands. It was symbolic for Antony, he silenced his speech and writing.
Also, it's evident they were doing it because they needed to pay their massive numbers of troops. Antony seemed to fashion himself more along the lines of Sulla so I think it's a safe argument that the policy was originally promulgated by Antony. Octavian didn't stand in the way.
This wasn't dark he was killing the Same people who were involved in the murder of Julius Caesar.These same traitors would have conspired against Augustus caesar
This is kinda sad. Sulla had proscriptions and they had such an impact that generation later (Cato, Caesar, Brutus) never dared to repreat that. It was that horrifying. Generation later we see them doing the exact thing ignorant of what proscriptions trully mean.
paolo bignardi and once he became Emperor Augustus invited Cicero's children to his court, gave them patronage, and allowed them to take Vengeance on Anthony's children
This series depicted Octavian as basically being born an Evil Genius. Not much historical support for the idea but it does make a more interesting character.
Sulla was paying back what Marius and his faction did in Rome while he was fighting Mithridatic War in Greece. When he got back to Rome with his veteran legions, he promptly dealt with the Marius faction and liquidate them. A very young Julius Caesar was on his proscription list for being the son in law to Cinna, but was talked out of it.
Sulla was convinced to spare Caesar against his better judgement, he saw much of Marius in him. Seeing how Optimates ultimately lost ot Populares/Caesarians (though we shouldn't think of them in terms of modern political parties, it was a somewhat looser affilation), he would probably regret sparing Caesar.
Attia is a wonderful, fierce, and loving mother who will stop at nothing to do what's best for her daughter! Whether it is killing her daughter's husband, killing her daughter's best friend's father, slapping her daughter across the face, or giving her daughter to Pompey as a sexual gift - Attia shows everyone what a loving mother she is, and serves as a moral compass for all HBO mothers that followed her. Attia - a loving mother, a beacon of virtue, and a pillar of Rome.
The prescriptions of 44bc just showed how much more deadly and bloody Roman civil wars had become as after Caesars murder, it was a war to the end and those who lost would pay for defeat with their lives, fortunes and property.
Ceasar's uncle Lucius Cornelius Sulla he became dictator of Rome and massacred everyone who crossed him His epitaph No friend ever served me, and no enemy ever wronged me, whom I have not repaid in full. Sulla became dictator killed everyone who opposed him ruthlessly. After setting Rome to rights he retired to a pleasure garden. Ceasar attempted to reconcile because everyone was terrified of another Sulla Octavian did not have such scruples. He saw how both ended up and chose wisely.
These political murders that this scene depicts were part of what doomed the Roman Republic. However, it did not start with them. The Second Triumvirate went from 43-42 BC. The two Gracchi brothers, tribunes of the people, were murdered when they tried to push social reforms to alleviate problems the Republic had been facing. They were killed in 133 BC and 121 BC. The killings of the Gracchi brothers were a dangerous precedent. Roman politics had always been cutthroat, but never to the point of killings and assassinations. That changed with this event. More would follow, as what happened between Marius & Sula who did the same against each others' supporters. The future and stability of the Roman Republic was doomed long before Octavian, and Julius Caesar.
My only problem with this scene is that all of them compromised on the final list. Octavian tried to save Cicero but gave him away to get some Marc Anthony family members, while Cicero was a high priority for Anthony
Any history buffs wanna speculate about what made Octavian come up with such a brutal plan? The child prodigy we saw in this show never had aspirations for mass murder before this point. Seems to come out of nowhere. I wonder if even Big Daddy Caesar would think of something like this.
Jordacar there were many liberties taken in the show. There was a great podcast about this called Death Throes of the Republic by Dan Carlin. Very detailed. The show, as all shows must, take a guess as to what the characters were thinking. For instance, Julius Caesar is painted as a guy who conquered Gaul to make himself rich. He himself paints it as a series of defensive maneuvers, and he's right about that. He was asked to intervene in Gaul and only did so after having to defend against a migrating tribe. Nevertheless he's painted in history as butchering the Gauls for money and fame. Octavian was surprised at being Caesars heir most likely. He was ambitious as Romans were literally trained to be and he was smart. The proscriptions on that scale were most likely Antony's idea as he was the military man and the one with the most anger over Caesars death being as he was literally there when it happened and he was the Tribune they broke law to prevent from vetoing the call to make Caesar an enemy of the state. He likely blamed them for the Civil War altogether. You have to think, just based on what happened, who was most likely to want proscriptions? The boy, or the military man who hated the other faction and whose friend they murdered?
Jordacar oh and Caesar absolutely would have thought of that. He survived the last proscriptions only barely when his mothers family intervened with Sulla. The thing about Roman law is there was no real written law. It was old traditions and precedents. Once Sulla marched on Rome and proscribed a bunch of people he basically made it a fair tactics for others to use. The reason Caesar didn't use it was because he was trying to not look like a tyrant by pardoning all romans who fought him. He probably would have pardoned Pompey Magnus as well if the Egyptians hadn't killed him. It's one of the reasons he was loved by the common people. That and his constantly showering them with gifts and wealth. Antony and Octavian just used the precedent that men like Sulla, Marius and Caesar had set.
@@forgetful9845 Caesar was a monster, but was pretty lenient with fellow Romans. Octavian was not. Caesar lived through a hit list craze like this under Sulla, he would have hated Octavian for this shit.
If only “problems” could be dealt with today as easily and total as they are portrayed here with the proscriptions. Have a bunch of political enemies? Have the unsavory and fringe parts of society remove them. Love it.
Sorry Cícero, but you just chose the wrong side of the civil war too bad. Júlio Cesar showed mercy for his enemys and got killed for it. Octavian will not commit the same mistake twice DO NOT HESITATE SHOW NO MERCY
British actors are so much easier on the ear in comparison with the whiny accents of American actors. Maybe the obesity and drug problems affests their vocal cords and thus you get Minnie Mouse voice.
"A man is not rich unless he can raise an army at his own expense" Marcus Licinius Crassus (c. 115 BC - 53 BC) - Crassus was a member of the first triumvirate. Of course, he took the army he raised and invaded Parthia, resulting in the his death, along with most of that army.
This was a small glimpse how evil and fucked up they were. Watch Spartacus was that a more accurate version of how fucked up they were? In some ways I think the show downplays how fucked up and evil they were. Of course I say that as if you are raised to be fucked up and evil well what do you expect.
Dan Nolan If you think Spartacus is in any way accurate, I dare say you don't know what you're talking about. Only one side committed genocide and betrayal during the Third Servile War, and that was Spartacus's. This is a simplification of what was actually very complex legal matter that had existed for quite a while, which was the removal of citizenship from those who were considered dangerous to the current Senate or rulers of Rome. Proscriptions took away a person's legal rights to holdings (the list was mostly used to accrue money and seize valuable assets) and to all forms of legal protection. Using the list to have men killed was a technicality, lack of citizenship and legal rights ended up decriminalizing a murder committed upon them, the list was not a declaration for them to die. Most on the list simply fled and waited for a new list to be drawn up without them on it, Julius Caesar was on it multiple times. As for your belief in the modern Spartacus story that was invented in the 1950s, I offer this advice: do not trust a program that depicts gladiators dying during every match or has women and children being killed in the arena. Gladiators cost a shit ton of money to purchase, train, and have fitted for (often) customised armour; a Ludus would be absolutely livid if their man got killed off so quickly and would demand triple the cost in repayment from the state. Imagine in American football if an owner paid another team millions of dollars to buy out the contract of a quarterback and few more million to the player themselves, then the first game the player is either permanently injured or killed; there would be scandals for decades, thus imagine how stupid it would be if that happened every game to half of the players on the field. Now also imagine how "calming and pacifying" it would be for them to bring out some random woman and her child during halftime and had them brutally murdered by one team or an animal, doesn't sound like it would work out does it? Most layman's concepts of Rome come from misinterpretations of Roman satirists or from taking propaganda from the Middle East at face value. Imagine if in a millennia the current cultures thought that the British and all their colonies literally ate Irish babies because some dumbass didn't understand that Jonathan Swift was being angrily sarcastic; or if they thought that football stadiums were for people to fight to the death while sinners had public orgies on the field because all the future groups only read transcripts from Osama Bin Laden speeches for some reason.
I think you misunderstood.They also have multiple things on Spartacus not just that 1 show. My point is romans were way way more fucked up vs how Rome shows them to be and there is no doubt about that.
All versions of Spartacus now come from the 1950s fantasy, so it doesn't matter which one you were specifically referring to. I also understand what you were trying to say; unfortunately your understanding of the matter is wrong. I'm a classicist, I've studied these people for over a dozen years know and have personally been taught by those who have literally written the books on these subjects. The pop culture view of the Romans is wrong in almost every regard, with stories outrageously embellished in the name of selling drama. Frankly speaking, relating to issues such as race, religious tolerance, and other issues, the classical Romans are typically considered to be more progressive than modern America.
Seriously are you Italian because you sound biased as fuck ? They openly had slaves. They would go into lands that were not theirs and rape and kill people sometimes that had done nothing to them or Rome. Also how their laws favored the rich but in more obvious fucked up way.
I'm not Italian, but that's pretty bigoted of you to assume that I must be because I'm saying the Romans aren't nearly as bad as you claim they are. 1. Yes they had slaves. But you couldn't be born a slave. All slaves were POWs or those serving a criminal sentence (modern day Louisiana has a similar set up.) Many slaves such as tutors, gladiators, trainers, and carpenters were paid wages. Many slaves eventually made it back to the freedmen class, and would achieve voting privileges. Many, such as the poet Horace's father were given large sums of money and land (which they were freely able to sell) after they stopped being a slave. Compare that to American slavery and the lack of civil rights for former slaves even after abolition. 2. They didn't rape and murder outside of a few exceptions, they were a professional military with a strict code of conduct. Illegal plundering or attacks upon a newly conquered populace could be met with cainings, lashes, and even decimation of the unit. Believing that they randomly went into countries for no reason shows a complete lack of understanding for the geopolitical climate of the time. 3. While I'm not saying laws favouring the rich are good, their laws no more favoured the upper classes than America's laws do today. Compared to the American 1930s legal system like the labour laws before unions came along are far worse than what the Romans had for a good chunk of their history considering that many workers and Craftsmen were protected by guilds.
Lepidus is me in group projects.
😂😂
🤣🤣 But to be fair in real life Lepidus was one of Caesar's most competent man
@@ois999 Indeed Lepidus was likely the senior partner in the triumvirate at this time. Mark Antony was not skilled at politics, while Lepidus did politics and warfare well, and was Pontifex Maximus. At this time Octavian was likely the junior partner, given only Africa to rule - possibly viewed by both Lepidus and Mark Antony as a pawn in their own plans. Octavion was only 20 years old, which in Roman political society was still a baby, unable to hold any elected office under the traditional rules. Only his army and his status as son of Caesar had let him bypass the age requirements. Its necessary in an adaptation to reduce characters to tell the stories, and we know that Lepidus did not dominate history in the way Mark Antony and Octavian would, so I do not mind they made the decision to reduce his role. But I still have a softspot for him.
Same
@@Crusader1089 I remember this from somewhere...
“Woe then to Rufus Tranquillius.” Fantastic writing in this series overall! Such great acting and writing!
dwayne lawrence poor Jacasta! Doesnt sge have a funny scene after her dad is bumped off? I know i shouldnt laugh!!
line cracks me up
unto
*Woe unto Rufus Tranquillus then.
Death Note Roman version.
LOL
Julius: hey guys I know you’re my enemies but I’m gonna forgive you and we can just forget this ever happened
(Julius dies)
Octavian: well *lesson learned I guess*
cue proscriptions
RandomWriter Yep, it’s ironic, they killed a man who offered them mercy, because of that being killed by his successor. Like killing Caesar because they didn’t want a king, only for Octavian to become Augustus and basically Emperor
swingmattuk *princeps
@@mkum2141 There wasn't a lot of difference between Octavian being Augustus (which *was* his title, along with Princeps Senatus - 'First Man of the Senate') and Octavian being king, other than creating less political opposition.
While Gaius forgive them the II triumvirate didn't. The reaseon is when gaius was young sulla took over the city and proscripted some people. The horror young caesar witness make an idea in his head not to kill his enemies. Octavian was too young to witness it. Though he killed everyone who opposed him
@@swingmattuk Yes, the conspiracy to assassinate Julius Caesar was not well thought out, and probably not really as justified as we might view it through a modern lens. The conspirators lacked a good plan of what to do afterward, and it just resulted in far more bloodshed, with many of the conspirators being killed, and with Julius Caesar's named heir and nephew (Octavian) ending up becoming the sole ruler of Rome in the end. Also, while some of the things Julius Caesar did do seem extreme and Tyrannical by today's standards, understood within the historical context, Julius Caesar was actually trying to be very merciful, and wanted to avoid unnecessary killing. As far as rulers of the time go, Julius Caesar was one of the more reasonable ones. It's also easy to forget how back then, unlike today, warfare between kingdoms and empires was understandably seen as unavoidable. Today, warfare is generally obsolete. Even when a much more powerful country attempts to invade a much less powerful one, it usually ends up being a giant mess, and is remembered as a big mistake. We're seeing it again with Putin's invasion of Ukraine.
Ridiculous how Octavian's relationship with Cicero was never hinted at. Could've made those scenes more impactful. Cicero was one of Octavian's closest friends and a mentor who helped him develop into a legendary statesman.
Exactly. I wish they did a lot more with the proscriptions in the show. They each had to give up people to the other in order to remain peaceful while also gathering the necessary funds since this was a desperate measure (at first). Octavian had to give up Cicero. I forget the reason but he really didn't want to but was forced to by Antony because of one of Antony's men that Octavian insisted upon. It's so very interesting.
I assume it was one of the things they cut due to time constraints after learning season 2 was the last.
They had to skip over so much. No Crassus or Labienus, Lepidus is never shown as a competant general who overtakes Antony as Caesar's right hand. Nothing about Cato and Caesar's rivalry in the Senate. No real mention of the impact of Sulla or Clodius or how the Cataline conspiracy all set up the political instability that gave Caesar the chance to do what he did. I mean they covered 15 years of the second triumvirate in like 6 episodes? Would have been fun to see how unpopular Octavian was until Agripa beat Sextus in Sicily or how Antony spent years trying to undermine Octavian. Plus we really never see any of the admistration that led to the Principate.
Its a miracle how epic of a finale Season 2 was but its unfortunate how much got cut.
Heck, Lepidus' brother was proscribed, and that's not even hinted to in this scene.
In reality, it was exactly the other way around.
Lepidus was the one who had the idea of the Proscriptions. The first name he wrote was his own brother. And it is important to note that he father made a fortune thanks to the Proscriptions of Sylla.
Lepidus was far from a weak and fearful guy.
Mark Antony was ok with that, as always.
Octavian didn't liked the idea, but he had no other solutions.
The real Lepidus and the Lepidus of the show was very different.
Lepidus didn't became a Triumvir by being a stupid and weak politician of Rome. He was a very fine politician.
He was a great ally of Caesar, he even took the place of Mark Anthony, when Anthony disappointed Caesar for the mess he created in Rome while he was in Egypt.
Antony and Octavian would have never be able to beat the Senate without his very smart move during the war against the Senate.
Lepidus was a controversial politician, even during the Roman Empire time. Many Romans historians depicted him as coward, other as a genius.
But even if he loose at the end against Octavian, he remained one of the most powerful politician of Rome and outlived most of them.
He wasn't a genius as Octavian, but he was a very good politician.
He was considered weak and too pompous as a leader as his soldiers deserted to Octavian's side when he went to Scilliy. He lost the battle before it even began and surrendered himself.
True in real history Octavian was the jr partner with lepodus and Anthony the more powerful members.
Octavian started as the weakest, he came back to Rome from military camp in Ilyria pretty much only in his sandals. Nobody knew him, he had no experience, victories, prestige or money with himself. He had to claw his way to everything with only Caesar's name behind. Game was horribly rigged against him and he still managed to come on top.
And Lepidus won Africa, one of the richest areas in the Empire, certainly the richest in the west, as his share of the Empire. People never recognize that.
@@TheSamuraijim87 Yeah, Africa had alot to do with Rome's grain supply as Egypt had. The only reason people think Africa was useless was cause Lepidus didn't have much territory like Antony & Octavian had, also that in Africa, it's mostly desert in the northern area, which Lepidus didn't see much in the way of conquering more land, he was stuck there. But again, Africa was one of the richest areas at that time
I love how Anthony was like "Literally WHO?" when Atia brought up Rufus Tranquilitus lol
because he'd thought it was him lmao
It's cool to see a stylus and wax tablet.
I hope they offered student discount back then.
To be more specific, Cicero's *wife* had the most extensive spy network. Also the proscriptions were an... unsavoury part of Roman history. In a martial culture where genocide ranked amongst proscribed legitimate military tactics, something about the cold premeditated murder of people simply to get their money and deny their support to someone else is simultaniously ingenuis, and terrifying.
Dont have to chalk that up to ancient times being brutal either. China and North Korea are still doing open cleansings of its elite every now and then. And countries like the US and Russia are less brazen about it but aren't innocent of assassinations either.
and the method to do it and how it is carried out is already legal practice and everyone young and old alike when the proscriptions are invoked are not to be taken lightly especially on the names who get put on there. There has to be good reasons for putting people's names on there the wrong reasons to put someone on there will come back to bite those who did the deed in the ass decades latter is real. in that bit where his own mother tries to put a name on there with a weak ass reason and got reminded of the seriousness of it is a solid point of the severity of the practice and even those who don't care and want to do it and had not lived though it like caesar did know that even then it has to be done right other wise things will get very bloody indeed.
It's Roman Tradition
The psuedo morals of the Republic shouldn't matter seeing how those families landed on the list of purges in the first place
Exactly. It’s shocking to contemplate how sociopathic, callous and self-centred Augustus and Antony were. It’s been suggested that the reason they did it was partially because they saw what Caesar’s mercy had brought him, and that to them, it was all those people they killed, or the three of them; and that they chose themselves.
No shave november for Marc Anthony coming soon
pedro sanchez
The ram has touched the wall.
pedro sanchez the beard was badass
@@johnhanifin1952 The beard was barbaric. True romans shave everyday
@LegoGuy87 although I love Marcus Aurelius and greatly admire him, I am also of the opinion that beards were "barbaric". It was the short haired and clean shaven style that made the Romans look unique and "civilised" in a time when almost everyone else had longer hair and beards. The fashion was also brought in by Hadrian partly because his face was greatly blemished, before him politicians had to be clean shaven to enter the senate. Short haired, clean shaven Romans for me, those were the men that put in the hardest work to build Rome into what it became.
@@MM-vs2et Someone knows their history! Romans heavily frowned on the Greek propensity to grow beards!
Octavius is just like "dont worry I got this im playing three dimensional chess"
Poor, poor Lepidus. I sympathize.
Lord Second he was a far more powerful and far less virtue-driven man in real history but yeah I feel you
When you swim with the sharks...
Pfft... Why would you sympathize with weakness and naivete?
Oh..
Imperial Truth: And here I was lamenting how heavily they tax the 1% in the US and often ostracize them for being wealthy. In ancient Rome they just Vito Corleone your ass.....😳
@@SONICE69 I think you mean Michael Corleone but still yeah their politics are just brutal
Octavian told Pullo and Vorenus: "It is the time. Execute order 66".
*The time has come.*
Rome runs out of Seasons. Game of Thrones runs out of material. And yet the writers couldn't even use this as influence to put someone on top in the end.
He really likes nailing stuff to the senate door.
Well, you know what they say. If you have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
NAIL 'EM UP I SAY! NAIL SOME SENSE INTO THEM!
He'd nail Cleopatra to the Senate door if he could.
I loveddddddddd this show.. Wish it had a bigger budget and more seasons
it had the biggest budget of any show in history I think and twice as much as game of thrones
i remember back when it was aired, they said 100m on the propaganda
I heard it's already huge budget was the reason it only got 2 seasons in the 1st place
Mark Anthony's Funeral speech for The Beloved *"Caesar"* was missing. The person responsible for that error....deserves a punch in the face.
It's a One-two punch....Caesar dies (RIP) and Mark gives his little speech....it isn't complicated....
"Vintus VARUS, where is Mark Anthony's SPEECH!*
So Jocasta marries the man who was an accessory to her father's murder .
Another day in Rome
Patricians lol
"There are one or two names, I'd like to add myself" The most casual death list ever.
Stalin was furiously taking notes.
they actually had a 1000 names on the list,Sulla was obviously the influence for them.
+Octavian Augustus Hourigan Yeah Sulla had over 4000 names on his list and he executed a lot more people who were mostly just rich guys and not political enemies.
barbiquearea he had the heads of prized opponents displayed at his house. Actually though,when Crassus began to abuse the lists with the names of innocent millionaires so he could snap up their estates Sulla grew so angry that after the resulting argument they never spoke again. I know Julius Caesar had no wish to see himself as a second Sulla, hence his policy of magnamity when he should have went on a purge! When the second triumvirate was established they agreed this policy was a disaster, hence the above scene.
Octavian Augustus Hourigan And from what I heard Augustus and his supporters enacted the greatest wave of proscriptions in Rome's history. Funny how the Senate murdered Caesar because he would end up becoming another Sulla, when it was his nephew who really did them in.
+barbiquearea I think your information is a little bogus! I don't mean to be an elitest prick here but Augustus kept the executions to a minimum because everyone(himself included) remembered his youth and his kill lists! when he returned from Egypt as Augustus he was far more controlled and spairing than his previous years, only lashing out when he sensed a genuine threat. He was more controlled simply by the fact his enemies were dust and the Senate was packed with his genuine supporters.
Octavian Caesar Hourigan ....Sulla was the last republican !!...read
The black, leather armor and beard fit him so good
He's kinda like modern general officer who will ass chewing troops for any type of infraction while they do whatever they want with their appearance.
That beard would have earned many a frown in Rome. It was expected that every Roman man to shave cleanly. The beard smacks too much of Greco influence.
2:10 This was probably one of the most fucked up things they do on the show.
He was an innocent man who had done nothing bad to any of them. Had he been poor as dirt he might have lived.
He was conspiring against Octavian and trying to claim the throne for himself.
It is also very accurate. The Caesarean prospriptions targeted many people who weren't even supporters of the Liberators, but we're simply wealthy Romans whose money and properties were needed to fund the campaign of the Triumvirs.
@@sync9847 They even targeted kids who inherited large sum of money. Hell, it is said that they came for one of them while he is at school and teacher gotten himself killed while trying to protect him.
That's how scary the second triumvirate was. The proscriptions are not just to rid of enemies, it's also to kill those who are rich just to take their resources.
funny how Pozca steps back when Anthony wants to add a name
Funnier still, he actually supports killing his future father in law. I wonder what Jocasta would think if she had realized.
Shantanu kumar
A very good observation. I haven't noticed that before. 👍👍
1:15
@@shantanukumar9364 I wouldn't exactly call that support. He was just stating facts.
@Riff Raff exactly! the scene needed him to step back to make room for Octavian.
Top Caesarians all in a room. The successor of Caesar Octivian, Caesar's 2nd in command of the army Antony, his 2nd in command in the government Lepidus, and the most senior memeber of the Julius family Atia.
and one Posca.
This is representation done right, such a great character.
Looks like being rich was a big problem in Rome
It was dangerous buissines if you suported the losing side.
@@kristijangrgic9841 roefus was killed despite not doing anything
FROM the episode "Philippi," of the HBO series "Rome." This is taken from Episode 6 of Season 2, and all content is derived from HBO; none of it is mine.
Background: This is a (very) fictional depiction of the Second Triumvirate's famous proscriptions, which ordered the deaths of significant portions of the Roman Senate, the most famous victim being Marcus Tullius Cicero -- the famed orator and politician.
Thank you for making the background statement. I think that some people actually think this is a historically correct series. But that is the fun. Trying to pick out the fiction from fact. But if they don't take the time to do that then they will never know. That is ok too; it is just that being a fan of historical fiction, it hurts.
SPOILER!!!
Caesar did say
*Rome will not forgive you a second time*
And in this second time
Most of the Senate & their allies were butchered
I would have LOVED to see James Purefoy in Game of Thrones -though I can't think of a prominent character he could have played...
Could have been Jaime Lannister or even Stannis (perhaps a bit young to play Stannis tho)
John Miller jaime lannister
Robert Baratheon is the most similar to Mark Anthony... drinking and whoring, great warrior but horrible king...
He can still be a menber of the golden company for the last season.
He would’ve been an awesome Mance Rayder
Honestly, is there anything about anyone in the Roman Republic that Posca doesn't know? I can see why he's so valuable.
He basically knew anything that was of importance for Caesar. Which is why he probably didn't know how rich the king of the jews was, because it was out of Caesars zone of interests.
In real history Antony and Lepidus were the original masterminds behind the proscriptions and Octavian was supposedly hesitant at first (though he became quite enthusiastic soon enough)
It is disappointing how Lepidus is made out to seem like some weak toady, when he was a ruthless and clever politician who won governorship of Africa, the richest province of the west, as his prize from the Triumvirate. He was no fool.
He was also the only one to die of old age. Antony committed suicide, and Augustus was (probably) murdered by Livia, or died of terrible health.
Lepidus didn't "win" Africa - it was basically dumped over to him. After Philippi his role in the triumvirate became very minor as Octavian and Antony took all the glory for destroying Caesar's killers.
@@actin9294 one doesn't need to conquer something for it to be a prize. Excepting Sicily, the richest portion of the west was Africa. He received that, and Hispania. The fact remains that Lepidus was not what was portrayed here.
@@TheSamuraijim87 no, when the triumvirate first formed, Lepidus received Hispania, Antony - Gaul and Octavian Africa. After Philippi, it was completely rearranged: Lepidus received Africa, Antony all of the East and Octavian all of Hispania and Gaul. Hispania and Gaul were the most desirable provinces: the former for its rich silver mines and the latter for its potential for expansion. Lepidus may not have been what he's depicted here, but it's universally agreed that Octavian and Antony really screwed him over after Philippi.
Italia and hispania were richer i think
@@TheSamuraijim87 Technically he got the short end of the stick. He should have received Gaul and Sicily as part of the deal but those ended up going to Octavian.
Hello General Mark Antony with your manly masculine beard!!!!!!
That beard is not gonna win him any points in Rome. Too Greek.
I thought it was a nice touch, it showed being different from the other Romans which was what lost him a lot of support in the end
The people on that list didn't understand the first two rules of Rome:
1.) Don't f*ck with Octavian.
2.) DON'T F*CK WITH OCTAVIAN!
12:15 PM 7/24/2014
During this scene Lucious Verenius is part of the Mafia or gang of the Aventine right? Yeah it reminds me of HBO Sopranos. Fat Tony is friends with the people at the top harassing the other families in politics. Times have changed and its not really like that anymore.
they gave luscious the Aventine and he can do what he want as long as he keep the peace and does duty work for Anthony, there was a reason the other were afraid of him.
he was the boss of the aventine
This is what Ceaser was trying to avoid & why he welcomed back many who were agaisnt him during the civil wars as he saw the proscriptions during the first civil war as a young man, I belive he lost a few close family members to it. Essentionaly they would put names on a list and poster them in Rome and if you killed them or revealed that persons location you would get a percentage of that persons wealth as a reward, so you can imagine how quickly people turned one eachother.
Cicero executed Anthony's stepfather without a trial. Payback is a bitch.
Cicero killed men who were actively plotting to overthrow the Republic. And he saved the Republic... for a while.
Anthony’s step father was part of a treasonous plot that was exposed. The evidence was presented in front of the senate and all passed judgement against the traitors.
He got much more of a trial than Cicero.
In reality this discussion was held over a few days; and it was with deep consternation that Octavian let Cicero’s name get on the list given the close relationship between Cicero and Octavian....
Or perhaps propaganda by Octavian. He was mercilless and had his opponents killed. He was not going to repeat mistakes of Caeser
@@kristijangrgic9841 That could be. But I doubt it since in general the civil war sources are third party accounts
@@124akshat and third party are Octavians friends and allies since he had all his enemies killed
@@kristijangrgic9841 unlikely since Augustus gave a lot of high positions to Cicero’s son. If he feared reprisal, he could’ve just had the son killed as well.
I really do think Augustus did not want Cicero on the list.
@@kristijangrgic9841 thank you, it suprises me that people still fall for the augustus propanga more than 2,000 years after, the guy was not smart, he just had a name and was lucky that the previous civil wars had wiped out all great sons of rome leaving just him antonius and lepidus
12:12 PM 7/24/2014
Long Live House of Julii!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's debatable who's ideas the proscriptions were. Augustus later would blame Antony, though no matter what he was complicit in it. I highly doubt any woman had that much influence in the proscriptions, and in all there were over three thousand of them. Also, Cicero's right hand and his head were nailed to the rostra not just his hands. It was symbolic for Antony, he silenced his speech and writing.
Also, it's evident they were doing it because they needed to pay their massive numbers of troops. Antony seemed to fashion himself more along the lines of Sulla so I think it's a safe argument that the policy was originally promulgated by Antony. Octavian didn't stand in the way.
This is primarily because of the use of private armies. Generals are made from the fortunes of their families.
"Rome rules the world....But woman rule Rome."
-Historical quote, Tacitus(?)
RIP Rufus Tranquilitus and his family then :D
Jjack
The average life span of a quarry slave was 3months....Fuk Rufus Tranquilus.
Bran Stark still messing with the past.
Yeah right? I'm surprised not enough people saw the resemblance here. If they made a GoT with grown up characters he'd be perfect.
The darkest period of Octavian/Augustus' life and reign. Fear comes before Love...
This wasn't dark he was killing the Same people who were involved in the murder of Julius Caesar.These same traitors would have conspired against Augustus caesar
@@taskforceknight9336 True. This was just necessary. For Pax Romana.
@@karlcupid1274 Pax Romana was a glorified crock. A time of misery and poverty lauded as centuries of peace and progress.
@@taskforceknight9336 It was dark, he had rich and influential people who weren't Senators killed to get their money. Octavian was a monster.
Says every abuser. May you never marry with that ethos. With Fear, Love is nonexistent. Only more Fear.
Atia thug life! "I don't like the girl." Poor Jocasta!
This is kinda sad. Sulla had proscriptions and they had such an impact that generation later (Cato, Caesar, Brutus) never dared to repreat that. It was that horrifying. Generation later we see them doing the exact thing ignorant of what proscriptions trully mean.
Sulla - proscriptions and not murdered.
2nd Triumvirate - proscriptions and not murdered.
Caesar - no proscriptions and murdered.
Woe unto Rufus Tranquilis
According to the Historians, the Proscriptions were proposed by Antony, while Octavian at least at the beginning didn't agree about it
paolo bignardi and once he became Emperor Augustus invited Cicero's children to his court, gave them patronage, and allowed them to take Vengeance on Anthony's children
Greenfield2034 oh my bad
History written be the winners. Of course it's was Antonius' fault. Why would Octavian be the initiator of that stain in his CV?
And luckily Octavian could beat Anthony so he couldn't spin his version of the story.
This series depicted Octavian as basically being born an Evil Genius. Not much historical support for the idea but it does make a more interesting character.
We cant kill women see how gentleman he was this guy octivian.
The autogenerated english subtitles are amazing the algorithm is out of this world
With Octavian it’s strictly business he don’t give a shit about Lepiduses conscience or Antony and Atias personal vendettas.
This was not unprecedented in Roman history. The Proscription of Sulla twenty years earlier introduced violence and terror to politics.
Sulla was paying back what Marius and his faction did in Rome while he was fighting Mithridatic War in Greece. When he got back to Rome with his veteran legions, he promptly dealt with the Marius faction and liquidate them. A very young Julius Caesar was on his proscription list for being the son in law to Cinna, but was talked out of it.
Sulla was convinced to spare Caesar against his better judgement, he saw much of Marius in him.
Seeing how Optimates ultimately lost ot Populares/Caesarians (though we shouldn't think of them in terms of modern political parties, it was a somewhat looser affilation), he would probably regret sparing Caesar.
*With a pen*
Octavian and Cicero were actually close as friends.
Antony looked badass here
Atia is evil - killing Rufus Tranquilus just because she dislikes his daughter.
Attia is a wonderful, fierce, and loving mother who will stop at nothing to do what's best for her daughter! Whether it is killing her daughter's husband, killing her daughter's best friend's father, slapping her daughter across the face, or giving her daughter to Pompey as a sexual gift - Attia shows everyone what a loving mother she is, and serves as a moral compass for all HBO mothers that followed her.
Attia - a loving mother, a beacon of virtue, and a pillar of Rome.
Octavius was not entirely behind the idea of killing Cicero as Cicero was loyal to him.
But he supported the liberators plot to kill Cesar since he regretted not being able to take part in it
Didnt matter in the end anyway. He wanted to be with the cool guys. One of the reasons I dislike Octavian. Killing Cicero.
@@PRubin-rh4sr nah, Cicero tried to screw over Octavian after the Battle of Mutina. Octavian merely returned the favor.
@@actin9294 Octavian publicly opposed Cicero's death. In order to be perceived as a moderate and put all the blame on Antony.
1:04 Subtle nonverbal gestures like this is peak acting
"Secret to success" by Lepidus
Play the game scared, play it scared, and submissive....for the win.
Lepidus is the leader everyone needs but noone deserves
Nice screen capture from a vlc video
Why does James purefoy look like Hugh Jackman in this scene.
Antony has an appeal for nail things in the Senate door
Woe unto rufus tranquilus then
I love Maecenus, he is the embodiment of the New Order
2:07 love the stare
A:hey it's your mother
O:so what she is your lover
Wooo unto Ruphus Tranquilus.
The prescriptions of 44bc just showed how much more deadly and bloody Roman civil wars had become as after Caesars murder, it was a war to the end and those who lost would pay for defeat with their lives, fortunes and property.
When your mom knows how's to play the game. GoT in the making.
Lepidus' is somewhat unfairly treated here and in fiction. He was simply the first of the three to loose so his story is less dramatic.
Antony enjoys nailing stuff to the senate door.
Lepidus for emperor! The only moral guy left
Mitchell Line and you will end up with nothing
Ceasar's uncle Lucius Cornelius Sulla he became dictator of Rome and massacred everyone who crossed him His epitaph No friend ever served me, and no enemy ever wronged me, whom I have not repaid in full. Sulla became dictator killed everyone who opposed him ruthlessly. After setting Rome to rights he retired to a pleasure garden. Ceasar attempted to reconcile because everyone was terrified of another Sulla Octavian did not have such scruples. He saw how both ended up and chose wisely.
These political murders that this scene depicts were part of what doomed the Roman Republic. However, it did not start with them. The Second Triumvirate went from 43-42 BC. The two Gracchi brothers, tribunes of the people, were murdered when they tried to push social reforms to alleviate problems the Republic had been facing. They were killed in 133 BC and 121 BC. The killings of the Gracchi brothers were a dangerous precedent. Roman politics had always been cutthroat, but never to the point of killings and assassinations. That changed with this event. More would follow, as what happened between Marius & Sula who did the same against each others' supporters.
The future and stability of the Roman Republic was doomed long before Octavian, and Julius Caesar.
Did Marc Antony really had a beard in real life?
Women had a lot of power in Rome. Atia demonstrates this.
Mycenas always struck me as a sniveling coward in this show.
My only problem with this scene is that all of them compromised on the final list. Octavian tried to save Cicero but gave him away to get some Marc Anthony family members, while Cicero was a high priority for Anthony
Death note roman style.
Like a death note
Movie name?
Rome, an HBO series, this is from the 2nd and last season
Rthe47 thank you
hbo, its time to remake this show
I’d like to do something like this myself only without the killing just take the money
poor Rufus Tranquillus...
Any history buffs wanna speculate about what made Octavian come up with such a brutal plan? The child prodigy we saw in this show never had aspirations for mass murder before this point. Seems to come out of nowhere. I wonder if even Big Daddy Caesar would think of something like this.
Jordacar there were many liberties taken in the show. There was a great podcast about this called Death Throes of the Republic by Dan Carlin. Very detailed.
The show, as all shows must, take a guess as to what the characters were thinking. For instance, Julius Caesar is painted as a guy who conquered Gaul to make himself rich. He himself paints it as a series of defensive maneuvers, and he's right about that. He was asked to intervene in Gaul and only did so after having to defend against a migrating tribe. Nevertheless he's painted in history as butchering the Gauls for money and fame.
Octavian was surprised at being Caesars heir most likely. He was ambitious as Romans were literally trained to be and he was smart. The proscriptions on that scale were most likely Antony's idea as he was the military man and the one with the most anger over Caesars death being as he was literally there when it happened and he was the Tribune they broke law to prevent from vetoing the call to make Caesar an enemy of the state. He likely blamed them for the Civil War altogether.
You have to think, just based on what happened, who was most likely to want proscriptions? The boy, or the military man who hated the other faction and whose friend they murdered?
Jordacar oh and Caesar absolutely would have thought of that. He survived the last proscriptions only barely when his mothers family intervened with Sulla. The thing about Roman law is there was no real written law. It was old traditions and precedents. Once Sulla marched on Rome and proscribed a bunch of people he basically made it a fair tactics for others to use. The reason Caesar didn't use it was because he was trying to not look like a tyrant by pardoning all romans who fought him. He probably would have pardoned Pompey Magnus as well if the Egyptians hadn't killed him. It's one of the reasons he was loved by the common people. That and his constantly showering them with gifts and wealth. Antony and Octavian just used the precedent that men like Sulla, Marius and Caesar had set.
@@inquisitorofkek2472 Didnt Ceasar brag about killing a million gauls?
@@forgetful9845 Caesar was a monster, but was pretty lenient with fellow Romans. Octavian was not. Caesar lived through a hit list craze like this under Sulla, he would have hated Octavian for this shit.
Lepidus was the senior partner in real life. He later got betrayed by Anthony and Octavian
They took back Sulla's terror regime.
Poor Rufus Tranquilus...the hell did he do to you?
Cheer~~the action of forbidding something--- banning.😊
Rufus Tranquillus, or Rufus the Tranquil - Happy Rufus.
If only “problems” could be dealt with today as easily and total as they are portrayed here with the proscriptions. Have a bunch of political enemies? Have the unsavory and fringe parts of society remove them. Love it.
Do you have any idea how bad that makes you sound?
@@syncmonism Some UA-camrs are very evil fucks, unfortunately.
@@syncmonism who cares lol
Everyone loves it until they're on the list.
Beware the promises of princes for they can plead expedience
Effing savage!
The real event was way more interesting and bloody.
Sorry Cícero, but you just chose the wrong side of the civil war too bad.
Júlio Cesar showed mercy for his enemys and got killed for it.
Octavian will not commit the same mistake twice
DO NOT HESITATE SHOW NO MERCY
British actors are so much easier on the ear in comparison with the whiny accents of American actors. Maybe the obesity and drug problems affests their vocal cords and thus you get Minnie Mouse voice.
The entertaining authority ultrasonically pat because lyre postsurgically deserve abaft a dreary discovery. ripe, obsolete salary
A szórakoztató szaktekintély ultrahanggal megpaskolja, mert a líra műtét után megérdemel egy sivár felfedezést. érett, elavult fizetés
Being rich in Rome is a death sentence
"A man is not rich unless he can raise an army at his own expense" Marcus Licinius Crassus (c. 115 BC - 53 BC) - Crassus was a member of the first triumvirate. Of course, he took the army he raised and invaded Parthia, resulting in the his death, along with most of that army.
This was a small glimpse how evil and fucked up they were.
Watch Spartacus was that a more accurate version of how fucked up they were?
In some ways I think the show downplays how fucked up and evil they were.
Of course I say that as if you are raised to be fucked up and evil well what do you expect.
Dan Nolan If you think Spartacus is in any way accurate, I dare say you don't know what you're talking about. Only one side committed genocide and betrayal during the Third Servile War, and that was Spartacus's. This is a simplification of what was actually very complex legal matter that had existed for quite a while, which was the removal of citizenship from those who were considered dangerous to the current Senate or rulers of Rome. Proscriptions took away a person's legal rights to holdings (the list was mostly used to accrue money and seize valuable assets) and to all forms of legal protection. Using the list to have men killed was a technicality, lack of citizenship and legal rights ended up decriminalizing a murder committed upon them, the list was not a declaration for them to die. Most on the list simply fled and waited for a new list to be drawn up without them on it, Julius Caesar was on it multiple times.
As for your belief in the modern Spartacus story that was invented in the 1950s, I offer this advice: do not trust a program that depicts gladiators dying during every match or has women and children being killed in the arena. Gladiators cost a shit ton of money to purchase, train, and have fitted for (often) customised armour; a Ludus would be absolutely livid if their man got killed off so quickly and would demand triple the cost in repayment from the state. Imagine in American football if an owner paid another team millions of dollars to buy out the contract of a quarterback and few more million to the player themselves, then the first game the player is either permanently injured or killed; there would be scandals for decades, thus imagine how stupid it would be if that happened every game to half of the players on the field. Now also imagine how "calming and pacifying" it would be for them to bring out some random woman and her child during halftime and had them brutally murdered by one team or an animal, doesn't sound like it would work out does it? Most layman's concepts of Rome come from misinterpretations of Roman satirists or from taking propaganda from the Middle East at face value.
Imagine if in a millennia the current cultures thought that the British and all their colonies literally ate Irish babies because some dumbass didn't understand that Jonathan Swift was being angrily sarcastic; or if they thought that football stadiums were for people to fight to the death while sinners had public orgies on the field because all the future groups only read transcripts from Osama Bin Laden speeches for some reason.
I think you misunderstood.They also have multiple things on Spartacus not just that 1 show.
My point is romans were way way more fucked up vs how Rome shows them to be and there is no doubt about that.
All versions of Spartacus now come from the 1950s fantasy, so it doesn't matter which one you were specifically referring to. I also understand what you were trying to say; unfortunately your understanding of the matter is wrong. I'm a classicist, I've studied these people for over a dozen years know and have personally been taught by those who have literally written the books on these subjects. The pop culture view of the Romans is wrong in almost every regard, with stories outrageously embellished in the name of selling drama.
Frankly speaking, relating to issues such as race, religious tolerance, and other issues, the classical Romans are typically considered to be more progressive than modern America.
Seriously are you Italian because you sound biased as fuck ?
They openly had slaves.
They would go into lands that were not theirs and rape and kill people sometimes that had done nothing to them or Rome.
Also how their laws favored the rich but in more obvious fucked up way.
I'm not Italian, but that's pretty bigoted of you to assume that I must be because I'm saying the Romans aren't nearly as bad as you claim they are.
1. Yes they had slaves. But you couldn't be born a slave. All slaves were POWs or those serving a criminal sentence (modern day Louisiana has a similar set up.) Many slaves such as tutors, gladiators, trainers, and carpenters were paid wages. Many slaves eventually made it back to the freedmen class, and would achieve voting privileges. Many, such as the poet Horace's father were given large sums of money and land (which they were freely able to sell) after they stopped being a slave. Compare that to American slavery and the lack of civil rights for former slaves even after abolition.
2. They didn't rape and murder outside of a few exceptions, they were a professional military with a strict code of conduct. Illegal plundering or attacks upon a newly conquered populace could be met with cainings, lashes, and even decimation of the unit. Believing that they randomly went into countries for no reason shows a complete lack of understanding for the geopolitical climate of the time.
3. While I'm not saying laws favouring the rich are good, their laws no more favoured the upper classes than America's laws do today. Compared to the American 1930s legal system like the labour laws before unions came along are far worse than what the Romans had for a good chunk of their history considering that many workers and Craftsmen were protected by guilds.
Poor jocasta :)
what a nicr moment in history