Rome - Caesar is declared a public enemy of Rome.
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- Опубліковано 22 лис 2012
- A scene from the HBO's famous TV series 'Rome'. Roman Senate passed the motion that would declare Caesar a public enemy of SPQR,(the Senate and People of Rome) People's tribune (Mark Antony) failed to exercise his veto over the motion.
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I wish I could find more situations in which to shout "VETO THE MOTION! VETO THE MOTION!"
+DangAssDan what does veto the motion mean?
Every time I do it people just look at me like I'm crazy.
A motion is basically an informal law. The Tribune of the Plebs (Antony) had powers to veto motions to prevent the Magistrates (Praetors, Consuls etc) from ruling in a style that didn't favour Rome or the plebs. When Cicero goes "Antony, veto the motion!" he means to block it to prevent civil war.
Why was cicero yelling veto the motion if he supported it?
DangAssDan when you fall over?
In case anyone's wondering, Pompey wanted to pass a motion in the senate that would declare Caesar an enemy of the state. It would show Caesar he had no support from them, but would of course give him no choice but war. That's why they planned on his friend and newly elected (thanks to Caesar) peoples' tribune Mark Anthony, to use his powers to veto the motion. Caesar understands he has no support, but not actually declared an enemy of the state. Only Anthony wasn't able to use his powers of veto, which concerned Cicero as he hadn't wanted to support the motion in the first place given it was meant to be vetoed, which was a taboo for him, and only supported it because Pompey convinced him Caesar was a threat.
Thanks. I was looking through the comments for an explanation to why he wanted it vetoed afterwards.
Brother I don’t think anyone was in doubt.
Rome is a great show, but it isn’t very hard to follow. Everyone has their emotions worn on their faces that you know what they want.
Thank you.
They probably shouldn't have tried to play around like that. Precariously stoking the fires of civil war
@@reinforcer9000 It was Roman politics.
And a lot had happened in those years that made it very difficult to grasp a semblance of what was "Worth risking"
There are some great series on youtube, but just to give you an idea.
Caesar was to protect Gaul, but German Allies wanted to fight for land in Gaul.
Whatever he would do, he would create enemies in Rome.
In Rome, some politicians were basically hiring hooligans to intimidate other politicians.
Around Rome, the economical divide between rich and poor was getting broader by the day. The only answer Rome could come up with were the Marian Reforms but even then, the situation was going in a downward spiral.
Rome's political situation was a bomb of which the fuse was lit years ago.
So it was but a question of time.
I love how they start yelling if they disagree. Absolutely hilarious.
ik it's great
The British Parliament had to get it from somewhere.
Its funny how they wear civility as a thin veneer, as soon as they dislike something, shouting and knives from under the togas.
If you think our Parliament's bad for that you obviously haven't been to America. Their Congress is even worst!
+Tim Muttock well, you haven't witnessed our recent sessions at the Greek Parliament then
So this guy must be the "Yoda" of ancient Rome.
Who mark antony!?
@@emperorbartu2414 he is talking about the senile old fool
@@MK-nd2ij he is the princeps senatus the "first senator"
theres more to it but for TLDR: the oldest senator.
More like an aged John Bercow
@@thefootienut More like Father of the House.
Pompey: “Antony must not be harmed!”
Random Romans: “COWABUNGA IT IS”
Cicero: *moves for the vote*
*20 seconds later*
Cicero: "Veto the motion!!"
He wanted to intimidate Caesar by showing that the senate was against him. He knew full well that Marc Antony, as a Tribune of the pleb, would veto the motion
@@simonrobillard But Antony bullheaded as he was got involved in all the fighting and never bothered to veto the motion. Only after he calmed down did he go 'Oh shit'
@@jakechinn6561 lol yeah they should've consulted beforehand
@@jakechinn6561 He actually din't get involved but was trying to get out of it as the fight got to him till Cicero told him to veto it then as confused as he was, it suddenly woke him the fuck up then he declared it but was too late.
That's because Pompey forced him into the act. Cicero initially declined because he feared civil conflict. This is all political games that Pompey started and Ceaser finished.
Even though this isn't entirely accurate I still like the irony of it. Caesar had used the same arguement as the princeps senatus to overturn a veto during his year as consul claiming that the crowd was too loud by the time bibilus tried to use his veto on a public assembly called by Caeser
That had two meanings: literal in the sense it was really just noisy and figurative, that the support was overwhelming and "What are you gonna do, go against the people?"
this a year, but things is bibilus is vetoing a land reform literally good reform just because caesar propose it, he also kinda a fool that die in a sea as fool because he cannot resupply.
this here can cause civil war
@@carval51 Bibilus had the right of veto, he was literally elected to veto Caesar, that was his only job.
@@SZ-wb1qb it not that he has no right, but the reason he is vetoing because the proposal is proposed by caesar for helping roman veteran and citizen of rome hence in someway or another it's a bad reason to veto.
while here on other hand cause civil war if not vetoed(same situation but different reasoning)
@@carval51 That was necessarily a good reform. The original purpose of setting up a system with checks and balances IS to find out what would a reform that is "good" to pass, meaning that it advances the majority's interests, whilst not infringing on the minorities' interest in any unacceptable way, though in the case of the Roman republic, the system had been malfunctioning for a quite long time, but still, to check on the other consul is one of the consul's most important job.
Also you need to remember Caesar was doing it for "his" vererans, and those would become landed citizens and vote for him in future elections. In terms of future, the Romans were fucked ever since Marius
I love how the Parliamentarian is inflexibly committed to the rules, but is also happy to give his approval if someone's found a loophole. He's a hard-ass, but not an asshole.
Loophole? LOOPHOLE!?!!! This is a religious matter! There are no loopholes in religion!
thats the princeps senatus, the first senator. hes literally the oldest member
@@AnvilMAn603 Well it seems like he's also the Senate Parliamentarian
It's a very religious thing. Departure from the rules was the most terrible sacrilege. Oldman doesn't have long to live anyway, so why he should upset the gods?
@@EXstreemSkyTRICK YOU SAY, this is a religious matter, there are no tricks in religion
Great scene, while Cicero argues from law, being the lawyer that he is; Pompey just want things done, like the hispania imperator that he is.
IIRC it was Pompey who only wanted to intimidate Caesar. He was mad at the old guy for initially forgetting that they could still get away with it.
Pompeius magnus
He wanted to know if there was a way around it, that's why he was so annoyed.
shame on HBO for cancelling Rome
They barely had the financing for the second season which was obvious--horrible, cheapened version of great historic characters. Really pissed me off.
Shame on HBO for such barbarities. Shame.
@@sipjedekat8525 But, you wanted more game of thrones 😂
I just come back here guys, and with new hope, if HBO failed 👎, then other will take the chance, let we see, maybe Netflix? Or maybe other, but I hope the show is about the time of Scipio africanus
The old guy has a great voice
I hate it.
Sounds like he is a long-time smoker with throat cancer.
What is his position in the Senate btw?
@@ehcastro3156 He is credited as "Curial magistrate". His role in the story seems to mirror a modern speaker of parliament, but I don't know if that's because of an actual historical position the character represents or just something they are evoking as a way to make the senate seem more familiar to the audience.
The “Senile old Fool”’s position Is likely Princeps Senatus. “First Among equals of the senate.” This means that he has the power to speak first In the Senate, submit and preside over legislation. It’s a position that can also be given to, evidently, the oldest senator.
This Position was subsumed by Augustus Caesar In 27 BC, it’s legislative power, in coordination with that of his Tribunicia Potestas, granting him the right to Veto any legislation he wanted and extend Auxilium, gave Augustus, and later emperors a large amount of power over the Senate and all Legislation passed In the Roman Empire.
This is why (the show) version of Antony was a terrible choice for Tribune. He was a military man, not a politician. The optimates counted on him to veto the motion on his own, but he got so caught up in the conflict that he forgot the reason why he was there.
I hope you know that all the story line here is not accurate 😕 , they declared Ceasar a traitor by an unvetobel act basically declaring a state of emergency 😉
@@mostafaalnaserify that's not true. they attempted to declare him an enemy of the people, it was vetoed. Later on, they passed the Senatus Consultum Ultimum which gave Pompey (and the other consul) absolute power to defend the Republic, which he used to begin organising a military response.
@@efeghilmffdsee5216 pompeius actually wasnt consul at the time
@Mostafa Alnaser That's the irony.
I read once that the BBC made the show like this rather than actually telling the wondrous original story because the British "knew Roman history, thus they'd tell the unknown bits" (or something of sorts).
I always hear it being said that Romans were expected to be as much martial men as shrewd politicians however. At the same time I hear of examples like this scene, of Romans that somehow were good on the field but not in the Senate and vice versa.
Not much has changed in Italy lol. Pretty sure this happened last week lol.
lol yep
XD
lmao
Yeah, I went to vote. Voted for Emma Bonino. Made no difference, Fascists and populists won big time. Not that it'll change much. No government in Italy ever managed to get anything done, and rarely lasts longer than a couple of years.
Europe needs fascism.
“This is a religious matter.”
Hmmm, seems reasonable. Perhaps we should let the Pontifex Maximus decide wether the motion passes.
Oh, this made me laugh.
@@teal_m_101 Because Caesar's the Pontifex Maximus at the time, correct?
@@SMAXZO Yeah
"This is a religious matter"
And Caesar is Pontifex Maximus. Maybe they should've asked his opinion on the matter lmao.
They seem to forget that in this show, in a later episode while Caesar was talking to the chief Augur he says something like "A simple soldier like me has no business discussing religion."
@@leonardohopplescoth1783 and Marcus Antonius was Augur . People forget these things fór some reason
@@leonardohopplescoth1783 To be honest, they forget that in reality, too, Caesar didn't bother with that job for sevearl years.
he certainly knee it with bibilus. bibilus made religious festivals and bad omens on election days and caesar simply said it carries on anyway because i am PM
Cicero: "VETO THE MOTION!"
Antony: *Surprised Pikachu face*
😂😂😂
its still funny how he wanted to show that caesar had no support, yet an entire mini civil war starts in the senate alone about it, clearly showing caesar has support a plenty
Especially among the people
He bought them over, but ok nonetheless.
Eesh. I wouldn't quite say support a plenty. It was more them voting against the consequences of what would be the reality of Ceaser becoming an enemy of Rome when he had the loyalty of most of the Legions and was loved by the people.
The senate in particular, especially in his youth, thought Ceaser was a right royal pain in the arse.
Caesar had like 22 die hard senátors thats very low
Excellent writing and understanding of how the Romans viewed their Senate. Everything within the promerium was considered Holy ground and especially within the Senate building laws decreed and voted for was considered sacrosanct.
Scott - True; but, pomerium or pomoerium.
and then they murdered someone in it
@@thegoodthebadthebeard2907 They wouldn't have if he didn't have a child with Cleopatra. By doing that, he made his own grave. His assassins did what they had to do because of their ancestors who expelled Rome's kings.
@@darkmagician2521 It has almost nothing to do with Cleopatra lol. Where did you get that? Maybe it could've been one of the thousand grievances, but not the main motivator. Heck, even Caesar sleeping with half of the conspirators' wives, sisters, or mothers probably played a bigger role than Cleopatra.
Knowing this makes the Tifa porn incident much funnier.
1:19 that look Anthony gives to Cicero is priceless.
kumisz Anyway Cicero is most op charachter xD
@@falconlord9981 Cicero was so OP, The second triumvirate nerfed him
Juno Inferna! Senile old fool! - I have to remember to use that.
Yeah or "By Jupiter's cock !"
Or Pluto's arsehole and Vulcan's dick. :P
Hugely disprespectful. That old man was Publius Servilius Vatia Isauricus. He was hailed Imperator by his legions, in the field, just like Pompey. A great man does not disrespect a great man .. seems kinda unrealistic.
@@cgavin1 yeah but in a motion important that would decide the fate of Rome, only for he to mess it up big time would be bound to be called that. Can't blame Pompey for it.
@@reximingan9420 yeah, the old guy is a princeps founders and a full blooded noble.
I remember when this show came out in summer 2005, absolute masterpiece. Was odd to see Kenneth Cranham as Pompey when I'd seen him as Jimmy in Layer Cake the year before!
Oh I'm in the mood to watch layer cake now. What an excellent throwback
What is the name of the show
So sad they rushed the ending of it. First season was amazing!
Yes! Not enough people know about that movie.
Odd how Sirius Black used to be an emperor before teaching in Hogwarts
Pompey: We are doing the thing.
Cicero: I support doing the thing.
'Speaker': We will do the thing.
Cicero: No wait, stop! Don't do the thing!
Anthony: I oppose the thing!
'Speaker': The thing shall be done!
Cicero: Stop doing the thing!
'Speaker': Lalala I can't hear you lalala!
Politicians haven't changed in two thousand years.
Politicians will always be politicians.
_"You're either top of the game or yesterday's news."_ - HK-47
That old dude was awesome! His confident pouting! Incredible!
It's amazing how cameras are this great back in the days.
amazing!
The really were pioneers of videography
Also good english
It's from 2005 not not 5 A.D.
@@NichtNameee ACKTUALLY this was 49BC and I was there. Camera technology was great back then but we lost the art after Christianity
Politic, Politic never changes.
I miss the old computer RPGs.
this part is untrue, they passed a law that cannot be vetoed so it was carried by 7/8ths of the senate
LoL...that dude at begining (Metellus Pius Scipio) - He put a per capita tax on slaves and children; he taxed columns, doors, grain, soldiers, weaponry, oarsmen, and machinery; if a name could be found for a thing., that was seen as sufficient for making money from it.
yes :)
Metellus Pius Scipio or Barachus Husseinius Obamio?
Soon Donaldus Jullius Trumpuillus
The dude taxed children I am both equally shocked and amused
Is he the man that defeated Hannibal in Zama? Or is it another Scipio.
There's a couple of scenes in this show that show pivotal history-changing and infamous moments in history, and it gives you a little lump in the throat. This scene, of course. When Vercingetorix kneels to Caesar. And especially when Antony takes the long walk into the palace, stops for a few seconds, and gives a greeting: "Cleopatra", and the credits roll. Just epic.
one thing i love in Rome is the repeating theme of accidents changing the course of history - like when Pompey tries to have the treasury gold taken from Rome and the men steal it then Pullo comes across it and gifts it to Caesar. then that other time when Mark Antony must make it to the senate house alive and the man in the crowd sees Pullo and attacks, and a brawl kicks off which prevents Mark Antony from making it
just sheer brilliance. i think this sort of thing will have happened a lot in history and we have no idea. these moments are - as you say - PIVOTAL and they pivot so suddenly because of tiny details.
@Will Muny Yes we know, nothing happened before last Thursday. We get it. It's all a simulation.
@Will Muny lol
@Will Muny Ok boomer
@Will Muny Keep crying buddy I have a job to do
Voting in the Senate is by walking towards the camp you are agreeing with. In this case,Cicero walked and thereby joined the Optimates, casting his vote against Caeser.
I love how backbenchers in the Roman senate were called Pedarii or literally walkers, because they never spoke, only voted.
"BORIS, VETO THE MOTION! VETO THE MOTION!"
I came here thinking the exact same thing!
vin 950 boris johnson, brexit
The way Pompey says “Juno Inferna” gets me every time.
When the Princeps says that its a religious matter he doesn't mean in terms of faith, the gods, ect. He means that if any action or motion that passes within the time of the Senate being in session it must be carried on with or without a veto or in regards to other matters and cannot be reversed within the same session if carried without opposition. So when things erupted into chaos just before Antony declared a veto it wouldn't technically be considered a legitimate motion due to the Senates ruling of religious matters and how Antony technically did not have the floor hearing. However, at the end, Cicero pointed out in a loophole that since the Senate wasn't adjourned or dismissed properly the motion to declare Ceaser an enemy of Rome was still on topic for the Senate regardless of the next day as it would be considered a resuming of the same session by the same religious ruling. Hence, it being a religious matter for the Senate.
Also when Pompey calls the Princeps a 'senile old fool' its actually kinda comedic given how we perceive what senile means today, but in this time period 'Senile' was a word to describe a senator who had been in the Senate House for a great majority of his life :P
Neat!
Hm, I thought that they regarded the Roman Republic as divinely ordained and therefore decisions of the Senate were akin to religious law too.
The word Religion comes from Latin which means to bind. So the process requires strict observance as it binds to the gods.
It was a matter of religion because all ancient cities from Greece and several in Italy were religious organizations. The Senate is a sacred religious assembly, gathered in a temple, and each senator had to make a libation and a prayer on the altar upon entry. To speak was a sacred right and duty, and to vote was the highest of sacred duties, alongside combat. The motions and formalities of the voting were parts of a sacred ritual, sanctioned by the priests, the gods, and the customs of their forefathers, it was the mos majiorum. They had to go through it all to ensure the gods were fully sanctioning the decisions. Each step had been enshrined into religious law by their forefathers, who witnessed the good results of following these procedures to the letter. The old man is representative of the oldest kind of patrician existing in Rome, a member from a religious family, able to count his forefathers all the way back to the foundation of the city itself, and even further, until a mythical hero or even a god(like the gens Iulia, who traced their line back to Venus). He cannot understand anything outside of his religion, the religion of his fathers and the religion of the city. For him, religion takes precedence over politics, and will not bend the law just for the sake of it. Even finding workarounds was a long and tedious process, involving etymologies, twists of phrase, or exploitation of loopholes or unintended effects of the laws. Tht is why Cicero has to think like a religious lawyer, find the loophole in order to follow the law, and getting his result. Strictly speaking, since they didn't concluded the session with all the formalities required, the gods hadn't fully given their complete seal of approval. A religious ceremony must be opened, conducted, and concluded. To do otherwise would void the ceremony itself, since the closure is part of the ceremony in itself. To do otherwise is to , best case scenario, have no divine support; worst case scenario, to offend the gods and have them work against the decisions taken. A religious city would be deeply scared of a sacrilegious action, since it may put all the gods of the city against its inhabitants, opening it up to plague, famine, natural disasters, or conquest. Therefore, the decisions would be void, and a expiatory sacrifice would had been necessary. Cicero's solution made it that this was unnecessary, as they just needed to reconvene the assembly to finish the procedure, and then close the ceremony properly. Real time has no importance, religious time is what matters. Pompey was portrayed as a more pragmatical and less concerned politician, more concerned with his personal ambitions, and his agenda, which, may I say, was also a religious agenda, since he was a member of the conservatives, which wanted to make the Republic more old-fashioned patrician controlled aristocracy, which would have meant that the city's religion would had been even more powerful in the end. Caesar was interpreting the law and religion in a more liberal and flexible way, he was a popular leader, a liberal of sorts in his time....
It absolutely was a matter of the gods and faith, as in their view the Senate was supported by it.
for a speaker of the senate house that older senator with the staff does not have a loud voice.
Its based on the respect, he might not have a loud voice but in the roman society the elders were highly respected.
Nicolas Ahumada the word Senate actually came from Senex meaning old man.
It's still practiced today, some what. The US president pro tem for example, is chosen by seniority, as in who serve the longest in the senate.
cursus honorum and stuff haha
He still has presence by virtue of being a senior.
Now this is the kind of political process I can get behind.
BlackDeathViral03 Didn't they also stab every emperor who didn't pay them well enough (or another person paid them more)? I remember that at one point the roman emperor actually bought a group of germanic warriors to ensure his safety, because a germanic slave warrior was bound to his master and would be killed from the plebs if they murdered the emperor.
Zajin13
Caligula
BlackDeathViral03
Caligula was seperated from his german guards when exiting a Circus-gladiator fight,.,he was not killed by them.
+BlackDeathViral03 well that sounds simple enough. Praetorians are ineffective, expensive bodyguards. Get new bodyguards. Problem solved. Yay!
Also known as "clusterfuckism."
Cicero screaming to Antony to veto wasn't out of regret, Cicero knew if he didn't agree to the motion, he would be seen as a reformist, or Caesar's supporters, and he didn't want to be seen like that, so he stood up, knowing his followers would do the same, so he used the chaos as an opportunity to yell at Antony to veto the motion
He supported the motion because Pompey warned him that if it wont stand he would leave Rome unprotected. Then again he knew that according to Pompey's plan Marc Anthony had to veto the motion in order to avoid civil war.
@@Godunow100 Everyone knows war was inevitable at that time. Both sides just wanted an upper hand. By declaring Caesar a public enemy, word would spread of Caesar's negativity, war propaganda of course, and his supporters would dwindle. Cicero just was on Pompey's side, but he kinda knew what Caesar is capable of, and he was seen back in those days, pretty 'neutral' and was a good mediator, so for his own sake, he didn't want to pick a side, but for Rome's sake, he picked Pompey.
It’s a small detail, but notice how everyone looks to Cicero for the determining vote. He truly was the Father of the Republic.
He's the leader of the moderate faction that just wants peace to prevail> anyone without hardline ideologies would follow whatever he did
Laughable
Father of what republic? To the degree that he inspired the US, you can also look to Cicero as being at the crux of the Roman Republic collapsing as a system, in corruption and absurdity, into an empire. What did he actually do to prevent that?
Cicero was a centrist liberal dork.
@@ExistentialWill why is that laughable out of interest
Pompey wanted Antony to get to the Senate unhindered, but Pullo got in the way lol
+blockmasterscott Yeah there's a vid called, "how Titus Pullo Brought Down The Republic" :p
+Blake's Gaming you not pretty sure you're absolutely right.
+dardo1201 I thought that was the title of an episode
@@thehobowizard The title of the episode indeed, did not leave anything to the imagination 😆
0:46 Cato ready to rock and roll.
The show not having more than 2 seasons is a tragedy...
Where's Dickus Biggus?
If you mean Biggus Dickus, he is with incontinenta buttocks.
He was in Wome, but he's gone to Judea to see his fwiend Pilate.
'There are no tricks in religion' gets me every time
A few episodes later they secretly release birds behind temple of Jupiter.
seconds later they find loophole lol
He's referencing Cicero's work "on the nature of the gods" where Cicero distinguishes between religion Vs superstition.
Religion to Cicero is a formal set of practices and observances that have clear results and consequential actions.
Worshippers do X specific action and the gods will do Y in return.
If disaster strikes the state then it's the result of a prescribed practice that has been neglected or it's observance has been carried out without care.
Superstition to Cicero is belief without regulation or ritual and because of that, various practises were used to appease the gods which included human sacrifice.
The Romans observed the practises of other cultures (notably the Gauls and Carthaginians) and found some observances as horrifying and wrote them off as people fearing the anger of their gods (Superstition means "great fear") and were willing to use any means to avoid the wrath of their gods.
Religion was a civilizing aspect of Roman culture that prescribed specific of practices to keep the gods appeased and ban certain practices. It meant no one can innovate and invent new rites to get people into doing something to earn the favour of the gods or take advantage of people's fears during times of crisis. Such innovations could be to decieve people or make people do something horrible. By sticking to predefined religious practices the people could always be reassured that there was a specific way to appease the gods and people with ill intent can't take advantage of them.
Each Senator were essentially like a mini King. These men grew up as the most educated and riches men in society.
As Senators, they would also be military governors, generals, priests in some cases. They also were heads of family corporations, owning businesses, lands, properties, cattle, slaves, ships, etc. Many had professions as lawyers and professors. Some were mobsters involved in the criminal underworld.
All of them grew up around one another. They all know each other like a perpetual high school.
When one person becomes very powerful, the others feel threatened that their roles, opportunities, and privileges might be taken away. Why they fought each other is more about jealousy than anything else.
It wasn't just jealousy though, it was the implosion of their entire political system. The competition between the senators, their "Cursus Honorum" was viewed as a good thing for hundreds of years. It was expected from every senator to compete and try to reach the rang of Consul. It is a bit like the competition between political parties in democractic systems today: They are meant to compete with each other, win over each other.
What made Marius, Sulla, Pompey and eventually Caesar different was the sheer amount of power they accumulated. They destroyed the competition. And eventually, that is exactly what happened. After Augustus, the position of Consul was usually appointed by the Imperator himself, often multiple per year, because the need of "Ex-Consul" was rather high (there were certain positions that could only be filled out by people who once hold a Consul title...doesn't matter how long they hold it though).
The "Cursus Honorum" still existed, but it lost a good chunk of its meaning. Instead, a few hundred years later, there was a new competition: The competition between those Romans who hold military power, which would be a major contributor to the end of Rome. Instead of a political struggle that was mostly fought with words and intrigue in the senate, now the Roman Empire was in a constant state of civil war.
THAT'S the speaker of the Senate -- not a "senile old fool"!
The Roman senate did not have a speaker. They did have a magistrate for a similar role but he did not have much power. He was just a guy who begins discussions
If C-SPAN was this interesting I'd tune in every day!
how you feelin now?
@@qeter129 I spoke too soon! 😂
We dont have the balls to act out because we're not like the Romans, we're civilized---wink wink
"The motion is carried by clear numbers," the old parliamentarian said with a flourish of his arms. Strikes me he found the condemnation of Caesar was proper, and its passage pleased and relieved him. They had to drag the solution out of him almost bodily. Very Pycelle
Elizabeth Swan: this is madness!?
Jack Sparrow: this is politics
Caesar: It's treason then....... I AM THE SENATE!!!
Pompey: "Not yet..."
@@tacidian7573Caesar: *autistic screech*
I always love that Pompey's whole careful plan began to fail because Antony just completely forgot to do his job as Tribune. Cicero, leader of the moderates, had to yell at him across the room to shake Antony out of his rant to some random. One of Cicero's better moments in the show TBH.
It's so clever how the show framed this event. Great writing.
That guy sounds like he has been smocking cigarettes since the time when he stopped being breast fed.
It's a good detail that Antony lacks abilities in politics that he didn't immediately stand up and vetoed the motion until Cicero told him to.
I mean, that is exactly why Caesar paid 500,000 to buy votes for Antony to be elected tribune.
In one version of events Antony, being the hotheaded soldier he was, charged headlong into the fight and got stuck in. Nobody could get him to veto the motion until the fight was over which I find hilarious and very fitting with Antony's character.
Or Caesar knew that and used Anthony as a mechanism to make a legal grab for power.
Either way, this is elite faction against elite faction... and who suffers... everyone else in such a ridiculous plutocracy...
At least our system in the USA is so much better... I mean our system changed the tribune to congress... and the senate to... the senate...
Wait...
Best show in the world. Entertaining as nothing i´ve seen. And on top of that, you actually learn something about the real world.
I love how some of the same actors have played different characters set in Rome in multiple production.
Who? I dint know
Scipio looked like he was going to shit himself after proposing that motion
2000 years later and screaming and yelling is still allowed somehow.
its a natural way that humans communicate difficult ideas with one another
The acting at the end portion reminded me of the old time movies. Good stuff!
For thousands of year, politics has not changed
"The motion is carried by clear numbers." :L
the show isnt entirely accurate here but in a sense it cuts right to the essence.
roman politics has - over the last decades or maybe even centuries - been hollowed out and turned into a game to a dangerous degree. For the convenience of a handful of powerful men it had been broken apart and exploited to is limits. And only fee were able to really navigate the mess that was roman law at this point.
The system swung from complete gridlock and months worth of senate meetings being nullified by constant vetoing to unilateral decisions pushed through by exploiting loopholes or straight up intimidation/violence.
And before anyone knew it the few strings that held roman politics together snapped and all semblence of control vanished in an instant. The result was the downfall of the roman republic.
Huh, sounds like congress
Well itdidnt vanisehd, it slowly transfered as techinacly even in byzanz hundres of years later they still called it "SPQR" (senat and people of rome) the repuplik as a fact vanished, but the repuplic as a ideology didnt vanished, many emperors even where judge by the history as how they treatet the senate and the senate statesman, the elite, wrote there narrative into the narrative of the emperors: thats why we se marc aurelius as great and Commodus as bad. Ofc it can also be just thruth, but it certanly is also the judge of the class behind the rulig poer of the emperor at that time: still the senat, still the assambly of the elites, still shown as such by the peoples election.
@@wote2760or the Parliament. History truly repeats itself .
This legitimately sounds like America
That's why they are aristocratic scum, and why caeser was a hero to humanity, he saved Rome for 1000 years after it and the entire western world for more.
Basically, you have to remember that up to this point, Caesar was a well-loved men to the common Romans but a tyrant to the senators of Rome.
Caesar has been called many times to return back to Rome as his original aim of just securing the borders of Rome against the Gauls just before the Rhine and that should be it but Caesar went on and knocked out every tributaries and even main Gaullic and Saxon clans out of existence and eventually took 90% of Gaul by then.
Of course, in the eyes of the senate, Caesar had betrayed the motion, amassed an army that could rival 10 Legions combined, held enough power alone to form a small nation, defied senate's calls to end the war and return home as a "hero" and also sowing discord between the senate itself. Some of the top senators of Rome like Pompey and Cicero knew about this and had always planned to pin Caesar down and get him back to prevent chaos in the senate but they couldn't find the right ways to do it except to declare him enemy of the state but there's a catch....
Cicero himself doesn't have an army and Pompey does but at this point, Pompey's army was way smaller than Caesar and Caesar's Legionnaires are no way less battle hardened than Pompey's Legionnaires thus if war broke out, Pompey could not take the blow alone much less that Cicero himself din't have any Legions to help out with. Also, despite Cicero giving support to Pompey's notion, he actually did not alienate Caesar himself and shown much of a more neutral side which was rather conflicting half the time as Cicero was literally playing both sides at the same time.
Nevertheless, Pompey did raise the notion and as Caesar was still tying up stuff in Gaul, he sent Marcus Antonius/Mark Anthony back to Rome to take his spot as a Tribune to hold Caesar's powers under MA's care. Pompey knew that if he was to raise it, war will be instantly declared and shit would definitely hit the fan and he will instantly lose if war did indeed break out.
Thus in this scene, when Pompey raised the notion, he was actually scared shitless as the camp that supports Caesar was heckling him consistently and he himself knew war would definitely break out and that's bad business thus he was lobbying for Cicero's support. However, Cicero did not cast the vote but abstained and walked out. HOWEVER, that's a problem as now Cicero has abstained, the vote suddenly swung to Pompey's favour of declaring Caesar "enemy of the state" which both sides hoped Anthony would "abuse" his senetoral and Tribune powers to veto the notion but before he could even voice it out, Caesar's camp saw the notion as getting passed with Cicero's walkout started to assault Pompey's supporters which became a full brawl and amidst the chaos, both Cicero and Pompey panicked and shouted at Anthony to quickly declare his veto but it was too late as the brawl became too wild to control that even with Anthony shouting at the top of his voice, it was muffled by the chaos.
Sending this to My father.. very well said to a layman's perspective
I love all your addtional detail. It's too bad they couldnt stay more to the history but that bores most Americans. The incredible twists and turns at this point are pivotal to the West. I get frustrated when there's a heavy use of sexual situations that did not exist such as Antony and the mother of Octavian, Atia. OMG Octavian would be turning over to see the writers have turned his mother into an upper class whore.
Cicero was a great lawyer and statesman. In a crumling republic he tried to keep everything together when everyone else chose sides. He didn't deserve his fate...
@@C-eo1rt he didn't he was never involved in the plot.
@@masterplokoon8803 he knew about the plot
@@lilpapalstate628 You’re wrong. He didn’t know about the plot, the conspirators didn’t trust him enough. He did support it however, writing “How I could wish that you had invited me to that most glorious banquet on the Ides of March!". So while he didn’t know about the plot, he definitely supported it. Turns out that when you break an oath and betray your honor to kill a political opponent who you owe your life to, your political opponents are likely to seek revenge.
@@masterplokoon8803 You don’t have to know about something in advance to support it. He loved the assassination, and he applauded the assassins. You know what you get when you applaud the murder of a man who spared your life? You get what you fucking deserve.
Yes he did. As every centrist, he was a waffling wavering pos that couldn't pick a side. Serves him right
The Republic: So, Caesar is our enemy.
Caesar: So, you have chosen death.
Heeer no ! The senate killed Caesar !
@@antoinemozart243 Yeah after Caesar beat every last one of them and decided to pardon them. And then the ones who assassinated him were all hunted down and killed along with their entire family. Because obviously they were.
People need to understand that for the Romans, the Senate was a sacred place. You couldn't bring weapons in there and there were no guards because nobody expected anyone to break the rules. The Senators killing Caesar in the Senate would be the equivalent today of the Cardinals murdering the Pope in the Vatican. Sure there's technically nothing stopping them from doing it but it's just crazy to think about! Which is exactly why even Caesar's other enemies and rivals outside of the Roman Senate saw what the Senators did as a horrible act and helped hunt them down. The Senators were so frigging out of touch that they seriously thought they could just parade Caesar's body in the streets and be celebrated for it instead of being executed.
@@giantWario you know nothing about roman history. 1) it is not the senators who were not allowed to have weapons but the soldiers to enter Rome 2) Caesar had already been threatened to be murdered in the Senate in 63 BCE 3) Caesar only forgave his enemies for political purposes. 4) If the aftermath of the assasination was not successful it is because Brutus didnt want to kill Octavian and Antony contrary to what Cassius wanted. 5) Caesar failed to impose monarchy because this monarchy was imposed by a general 6) if Octavian had been murdered, the Senate would have regained an anarchic power 7) Octavian only succeeded because he was called Caesar and a rightful one. 8) after Octavian the successors were declared illigitimate with few exceptions.
@@antoinemozart243 1) I didn't say they weren't allowed to have weapons in general, just not in the senate. And what do the soldiers have to do with it? 2) Threatening to kill someone was literally just a normal Tuesday in the Senate. That's got nothing to do with what I said. 3) Never argued against that, don't see why it matters. 4) Are you using the Shakespeare play as your source? Marc Anthony was very far away from the Senate with his army when Caesar was murdered and Octavian wasn't even in Italy. How do you think it would have been possible for them to assassinate the two at the same time as Caesar exactly? 5) Caesar never wanted to impose a monarchy. Marc Anthony did present him with a crown at one point but he refused it. If he had actually wanted to impose a monarchy, he would have. It really wouldn't have been especially hard to do for him. 6) Once again, are you using the Shakespear play as your source? No one even knew Caesar had chosen Octavian as his heir until his will was read! No one cared about Octavian while Caesar was still alive! 7) and 8) what does that have to do with anything?
Next time you go on a long-winded rant could you at least make sure all your points are relevant?
@@giantWario 1)the army was not allowed to enter Rome. This is why I said you confuse the Senate with the army as weapons are concerned.. 2) Antonius was present in Rome the day Caesar was assassinated. He was the current Consul 3) I base my statements on many historians , not Shakespeare 4) Octavian had zero power in 44 5) whe I talk of monarchy , I am referring not to a kingom in itself but to the absolute power tranfered to heirs. 6) if Caesar refused the diadem, it is only because he knew the Romans hated kings and this is why.......the conspirators chose Brutus as their leader. All romans knew that the last king of Rome was killed by a Brutus.
Hello Ukrainian parliament
At least its not poisoned by CRT and Intersectionality...yet
Hello polish Sejm :(
The Senate: We shall decide your fate!
Caesar: I am the Senate!
2:42 Old Cicero doing the good ol' lawyering he's so fond of.
I maintain that “there are no tricks in religion” said with the upmost sincerity is one of the funniest lines I’ve ever heard.
ikr
@@jannguerrero yeah but that line was written in the 21st century so I imagine the irony was intentional. Especially given that the show goes to great lengths how many literal tricks there were in the Roman religion.
@@jannguerrero "Bibant, quoniam edere nollent"
Slightly off-topic but it's interesting how the Korean subtitles use the Latin pronunciations ("Tullius Ki-ke-ro") and not the modernised pronuncations that the English language version does. Thought it was a neat little note.
yeah the modern "roman alphabet" actually borrows a handful of greek letters and uses and is full of contextual phonetics that never existed in original latin. most of the letters had a specific sound and their phonetics were dependent only on their position within the word. V U W were all written as V, the Z sound came from putting an S in the center of a word
It's not a modernised pronunciation, it's English Latin. Classical Latin pronunciation wasn't used from the Middle Ages down to the 20th century. English Latin pronunciation is the basis for medical and legal Latin.
oh my god as I bilingual I was like "where are the Korean subtitles?? it isnt in youtube subtitles" lmao. then I realized it was literally in the video
Do they also say Kai-zar?
@@tacidian7573 we pronounce it as Kai-salr. I wrote it as salr because we separate the sa and the r.
Today all the corrupt rulers are protected
*a public enemy of the senate and people of rome*
i think it's just not just the senate, but like an atom of the senate my friend
"Good evening Sir,I represent the Toga Party!"
Is really important to understand that the senators believe that all of them where equal.
So when 1 senator gain to much power (Scipio Africannus, The Grachi, Caesar) they will gang on him and destroyed him out of envy for being better than them.
Scipio only got put into that list in retrospective. Since he never pushed too far up, he was mostly considered still an equal. Today historians are rather certain that if he had tried, he definetly could have been the first in the line of ambitious senators that would eventually end with Caesar and Augustus
“Veto the motion-ah!”
This was just recommended to me recently
"Anthony must not be harm".... meanwhile, Pullo... "hold my beer"
One cannot rely on damage control coming from another party. Especially if there is more than probability that the other party might want the situation to take its course. lol
Italians. Things haven't changed much since.
If only modern politics was this interesting haha.
Watch the Taiwanese Legislature. They through punches and furniture at each other.
Are you kiddin me? we're living in, arguably the most packed political action since 9/11 due to Trump Presidency.
Wouter d.B. if only it wasn't.
YOU ARE FAKE NEWS...got back to facebook.
Modern US politics is fast approaching this. The impeachment of Julius Caesar by the Roman Senate was illegal because one of the Tribunes of the People was beaten up and prevented from vetoing the motion. The equivalent of this here in America would be if Robert Mueller couldn't get a proper impeachment and conviction vote from Congress... so instead, Mueller gets an arrest warrant from a judge nobody ever heard of and tries to use that to remove President Trump.
Fun fact, Cicero was pronounced Kikero.
Yes just like how Ceasar was pronounced as "Kesar" or in classic Latin his name was written as Caesar
@@tcbbctagain572 Caesar is actually pronounced "Kaiser" not "Kesar". "Ae" makes "Ai" sound in Latin.
Anthony veto the MOTION-UH, Stand up veto the MOTION-UH
Would someone please give that old man a lozenge???!!!!
Boy needs a little mucus breakup from the chest. I swear, if he exerts one more ounce of pressure from his blocked up lungs, he's going to face plant on the marble floor and the Senate is going to go straight down the tubes. Needs a Ricola and an inhaler, Stat!
Pompey be like : we dun goofed
2:36 "there are no tricks in religion" the irony is real.
lol yeah
Anne M. And from the mind of mankind comes religion (with lots of tricks)
+bradhuygens he talks about moral dumbass
Ergün Nar
up there , hes referring to the sacredness of their laws .
But religion is full of tricks .
Mental gymnastics is used to justify it
Ergün Nar you are right..the others don't understand
2:38 Uh-huh….
1:55 give this man some floor
Currently reading Lustrum the second in the trilogy of books on cicero. And after watching this show. This is how I imagine him in the books
Give him the FLOOR!!!
I must not be harmed.
Antony must not be harmed!
Pulo:😂
Wish we had all of the seasons planned for this series
Loved this show.
Metallus Scipio is an awesome name.
All that Cicero would care, was only Catilyna.
"KENNEDY, VETO THE RESIGNATION! STAND DOWN, VETO THE RESIGNATION!"
Game of Thrones is a political battle in a feudal monarchy, Rome is a political battle in a republic
It's strange that Pompey has to tell his men not to harm a Tribune of the plebs when doing so was a death sentence.
by this time the tribune was an agent/dog of ceasar who was supposed to become either a rebel or an exile (things played out rather differently but that's hindsight). That and the fact that antony's position was so obviously bought by ceasar nobody took him seriously (which again,played out rather differently later on...)
Pompey here being a CONSUL OF ROME
*Nervous Egyptian noises*
The gesticulation within this series is second to none
Is it me, or did Pompey try to enact Machiavellian measures, only for it to backfire, because the plan he made to fail succeeded?
What did Paul write about the wise in 1 Corinthians chapter 1?
"God grasps the wise in their own craftiness."
🤔🤔🤔
🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
I imagine most people in government would get along so much better if they were allowed to blow off a bit of steam like this now and again. Like hockey hahaha.
I love how they just start fighting lmao
He's the dude in the 1984 dodge b250 project van.