I followed the pre release of the GT 86 keenly and when it was finally released in 2012, put my money down and waited 6 months for my GTS, the premium model in Australia. In the first month, I covered 10,000 kms driving the most stunning roads around Australia, including Tasmania. I now have 150,000 kms of trouble free motoring under my belt and checked out the new GR86 thinking I would upgrade but decided I liked the less fussy, cleaner style of the original model. I still thoroughly enjoy every drive I do in this car. You can't go wrong with the original.
I had a gt86. 2014 car. Loved it. I bought it 4 years old, 14k for £13995!! Try finding that spec today! I went to toyota on release day to order a gr86. But didn’t get one. 35k now is a lot of money. Now i have had time to think about it i agree. Gen one pre facelift, fix the torque dip. Its time to buy something to keep and enjoy for years to come as the world goes electric. Im looking at a diverse choice. 1 gt86/brz 2 s2000 3 mx5 4 z4 I think you are right, it would not take much to change the torque dip. I had and ep3 type r. A good engine really adds to a car. Fix the dip leave the rest. I think i will buy another one next year.
Sorry to hear you didn’t get on the list for a GR86. But as you say £35k is a lot. Imagine picking up another low mileage GT86 and modifying it nicely. Will be a lot cheaper and no less fun :)
Fantastic video - I'm shocked that you don't have more subscribers. I've been on the fence about getting into a GT86 for a while now - I own a Celica and an Audi (which I really don't enjoy despite it being fast) and was thinking of combining the two into a GT86 as my daily, I miss having a car that not many people drive.
Many thanks! Having come from a history of Celica’s myself I can tell you the 86 is a much smaller car but its a very very different drive to the Celica. If you can replace your Celica/Audi with an 86 then I’m certain you won’t regret it!
I have owned a GT86 for 5 years. She has been running on ethanol for 3 years. This is the only modification I have, stock air filter, stock header. I have already converted cars to E85 but this is the first time I have seen such an increase in power on an NA engine. I have never run it on the bench, I cannot speak of figures, but the behavior is radically different. I think that the engine is designed for a high octane number due to its design (12.5 compression ratio and double injection). Sports cars that optimize the E85 engine without changing the injectors and/or the pump are rare, and in my humble opinion this was planned by Subaru. The original mapping is not at all optimized (timing, AFR much too rich) in relation to the potential of the engine. Afterwards, it's normal that Subaru must adapt to all the qualities of fuel in the world. Of course I could be wrong....I'm not a mechanic but I worked a lot on the mapping of my engine. It's just a feeling.
Totally agree! From my experience I believe the quality of the fuel is massively important on the FA20D. Makes zero sense to me why people would try to run their sports car on poor fuel.
Good video - I quite fancy a GT86. The GR is getting hyped because it’s new and there’s nothing out there like it - I’m sure it’s great but give it a few years and you will see loads of “why the GR86 isn’t as good as people say” videos on you tube - honestly it happens every time as people love to knock good things off their perches. GT86 won loads of group tests when new, people have just forgotten
Good video, thanks. I just had the opportunity on the second round to purchase a gr86 but decided to stay with my lightly modified gt86 which ive owned since 2012. Sure, there are flaws, but imperfections don't stop classics being classics!
in EU, Germany for example, 2012-2013 gt86s are still 23.000 eur, 2018-19 are 28-30k, so little depreciation but the bubble will burst. i think they dont sell well. whereas u can get slightly used gr86 for 36k. quite a dilemma.
The perfect 86 would be the GR but with the more agressive look of the gt and a newer version of the stock spoiler on the gt. For such a small spoiler those little fins make it look so great
I currently own a gt86 2018 facelift version. I really have doubts that the GR86 is "better" by a huge margin. I like you video and your honest review. I have owned a S2000 AP1, a DC5, EP3, and a MK1 Lotus Elise. Based on most of the reviews VS my ownership experience... I can tell you that most video reviews are hyped up. For example, the steering feedback of an S2000 is numb compared to a GT86. But on UA-cam, many reviewer says the S2000 is fantastic. Personally I prefer the GT86 driving experience and chasis balance.
Thanks Robert. Stock for stock the GR86 is a decent improvement over the GT86. Which is what we would expect from Toyota. But I agree with what you say and I think bang for buck getting a cheaper GT86 here in the UK and then modifying it can make a car thats better than the GR86 for less money.
I will probably be doing some "stage 1" tune ups to get some extra performance than buying a GR. Have not decided what to upgrade yet. Definitely considering to change my rims. Looking at RAYS, but their crazy expensive. Thanks again for your real review. 👍👍👍
Gr86 is an evolution from the previous, period. The torque dip improvement and extended torque band are clear steps ahead from the old. Gr86 is a fun car simply made better from inside out. Does it make the GT86 an inferior car? Not quite, but not until you have compared to the current
My GR86 is coming in September. The difference is night and day. I could never get on with the GT86's lack of power which was its only downside. The GR86 has basically fixed everything wrong with the original. The residuals will be fantastic due to rarity. The old GT86 was never 200 BHP. More like 180ish whereas the GR86 has been shown on the dyno to read more around 250BHP rather than the 228 standard. You only have to look at the Carwow vid to see the difference between the two.
Congrats on getting a GR86… however you’re simply wrong about the GT86. Had my GT86 dynoed when it was still NA and only had a few basic mods/map… made 212bhp. If people are only making 180bhp they must be using the wrong fuel (95/97ron) or have something wrong with their cars. But as I said in the video, you can buy a GT86, modify it and it’ll outperform a GR86 for less money. I have 302bhp/260ftlb for less than the price of a GR86.
I was at a dyno day with my Toyota Celica GT-Four at the time. These were stock GT86's. I am merely experiencing my experience of stock vs stock. GR86's with a manifold and map are making 260-270BHP which is still a massive 50BHP difference to a GT86 with the same mods. That is before you start talking about torque differences.@@leedfollow
Well as a fellow Celica GT-Four owner I think we can both agree how easy you can make power when you’re using forced induction but an NA engine is a different game entirely. But you’re saying with just a manifold and map someone has made near 270bhp on a stock NA FA24? Are you actually being serious here? You’re joking right? Because I’d LOVE to see the dyno results proof of that as I really don’t think that is possible at all. Maybe on E50/E85 but never pump gas on a stock engine. But lets come back to this video not being about the GR86; Its about how the GT86 is a great alternative if you didn’t get a GR86. And talking about torque, for less than the price of a GR86 I have 260ftlb of torque. You’ll never ever get that out of an NA FA24.
You only have to spend 2 seconds on Google to see the GT86's make less than 200hp stock. Maybe if you dyno'd a GR86 at the same place then it'd be showing 270hp lol
Congratulations @jimiyo2 :) You’ve read something someone else posted on the internet so it must be true! And you’ve repeated it so it must now be a fact! You get a gold star :) The internet is lucky to have you. Keep up the good work....
Not the same car at all. I have had both the GT86 and the GR86 now and no, the GR86 is substantially better in Every way. I understand what they say about the steering feeling a bit more electronic than the GT86, but it also lets you steer faster. I guess if you are in England and have limited choices, the GT86 is a great option. But no man, I loved my GT86 but I love my GR86 a lot more.
Totally understand what you are saying. But the truth is they are the same car underneath. GR86 is more of a GT86 v2. Glad to hear you are enjoying your GR86 though :)
You're mistaken While there are some chancers out there (whose cars aren't selling), you can buy a used GR86 with a few hundred miles, for cost price. Or you can buy a 2020 GT86, with 25,000 miles, for £23k (that's the cheapest, unless you go older). The GR is a better car in every single way, except steering feel - which is a little better on the GT86, but still great on the GR.
We'll have to agree to disagree :) "The GR is a better car in every single way, except steering feel"... and weight... and looks... and price (on the used car market)... but then I didn't actually say anywhere in the video that the GT86 was a better car than the GR86 :) I've only said that the GT86 is the better used buy.... which was the whole point of this video...
@@leedfollow We can disagree :) I think the GR weighs about 20kg more, which is almost nothing (it has aluminium parts like roof, bonnet etc, compared to steel on the GT). The GR has a lower centre of gravity too. I know you didn't claim the GT was better. I wanted to buy a GT but as you say in the video, they've held their price so well I don't think they represent the great value that they used to. Your version (with its interior) is fairly rare, and not what everyone buying used would get. I've no doubt you'll continue to enjoy it.
This is a real quality content man!!! I wish you all the best so you could reach 1 Million Subs soon. By the way is it possible to tune a stock Scion FRS / GT86 into getting 300 HP without adding anything like supercharger / turbo? I'm looking to get a used Scion FRS instead of the new GR 86 soon, because lots of youtubers said that the new GR86 / subaru BRZ has that engine failure and RTV issue so I am kind of worried. Thanks
Thanks for the kind words. Taking the FA20 engine to 300bhp without a turbo/supercharger is technically possible however its going to be way more difficult and expensive than fitting a turbo/supercharger plus it would probably make the car awful to drive on public roads. In order to reach 300bhp while remaining naturally aspirated it would require lots of internal engine balancing, intake/exhaust modifications and cam upgrades to increase rpm to the point you are making that level of power. Nobody goes that route because its way cheaper and easier to turbo/supercharger an FA20 and retain its day to day drive ability.
I agree and disagree. I am in the United States and got a GR86 Premium as my first car that I bought myself as a college student. Few of my friends have BRZ's / FRS's / GT86's, and in my opinion the GR86 is much more modern on the inside and a better place to be because of the way it looks compared to their cars. I think since the GT86's are so high in value on the used market, and how close they are to the GR86, it is a better deal for people to get the GR86 rather than going used. I liked having peace of mind with having myself be the only owner, but that comes with buying a new car. I think the GR86 does look better and comes with better equipment than the GT86, but honestly, buy what you want at the end of the day. We only live once, so drive what you want and not what you regret. Both cars are amazing.
Lol yes it definitely can. That oil starvation issue is certainly an FA24 (GR86) issue and not an FA20 (GT86) issue. My 86 has done nearly 20k track miles and I monitor the oil pressure constantly, it never takes a huge dip on any turns; left or right.
Except for all the reasons I mentioned in the video. Looks, weight, steering etc Also the older cars engines doesn’t lose oil pressure on track in high speed right hand bends…
Unless you don’t like the looks of the BRZ face which is different to the 86. Engine is also a Toyota design. And from my experience Toyota support is better than Subaru but maybe you are in a different country? But you know the suspension, front bumper, interior spec and colours are different right? The BRZ gets a more understeer bias setup and the 86 gets a more oversteer bias setup. Personally having driven both I find the 86 setup way more fun. But at the core they are all the same car, so they’re all great. Just slight differences to cater for everyone’s varying tastes.
@@leedfollow I'm in Canada. Yes, perhaps Toyota does provide better service somewhere, but in North America, Subie dealers do them better, and they have all the parts, know them inside out. But not to confuse with the best jobs. Nobody will take care of the car better than the owner. Engine is FA20 in the old one and FA24 in the new one. Subaru boxers inside and out. Toyota doesn't even go anywhere near any boxers. Only Toyota in there is the Dual injection system design, which they had to do due to Toyota's share in the company and their patents. The transmission, both manual and auto are Aisins, which is basically Lexus. But the clutch is Subaru design. Even the chassis is based on an Impreza (Subaru global chassis); from strut towers, structural rails, pillars to fuel tank designbut tuned by Toyota. I believe seatbelts are designed/manufactured by Nissan. Well Nissan pretty much does all Japanese belts. The wheel bearing/hub is based on the Crostreck and the old Imprezas. Everything is done in Subaru Gunma prefecture in Japan.
@RexinOridle Actually Toyota already did Boxer engines before the 86 - this was not their first. Before the 4U (Toyota internal designation of the FA20) they already did a U and 2U boxer engine for the Publica, MiniAce and Sport 800. Toyota did more than just the direct injection on the FA20. The whole engine was worked on by Toyota hence why its very very different to the EJ20 which was a fully Subaru design. Same with the FA24 which is in essence just an FA20 with an extra 400cc. Yes both gearboxes are by Aisin which is a subsidiary of Toyota (As is Subaru technically as Toyota own a huge share of Subaru). The chassis isn’t actually based on the Impreza entirely, it’s a hybrid which shares traits with both the Impreza and the Legacy but is unique to the BRZ/86. Yes this was to enable the use of existing Impreza/Legacy components where possible to keep development and production costs to a minimum but also helped them to easily reuse the existing Gunma production line. The alternative for a RWD car would have been the larger Toyota/Lexus parts bin which would cost too much and be too heavy for such a small car. If you are a BRZ fan then we’ve got something coming in the future which I think you will very much like :) But for now its a secret.
@@leedfollow Interesting. I’ve been working on a variety of F engines (FA20A, FA20B, FB20, Fa20DIT), and Porsches. Haven’t noticed a single Toyota design touch on FA20D. 4U is the code they use at the dealership for the block. Bought block from them as-well. If my memory recalls right, even the pattens are Subaru for the designs. This is also a straight quote (wikipedia out of all places): “Appearing in the Toyota 86 (also known as the Toyota GT 86 in Europe, Scion FR-S in the US and Subaru BRZ), the 4U-GSE is a boxer type engine with four cylinders and a bore and stroke of 86 mm (3.39 in). The engine is a Subaru designed-and-built flat-four engine called the FA20D, with a Toyota engine code. The engine is built at Subaru's Oizumi Plant in Ota, Gunma. It features Toyota's D4-S direct and port injection systems, with a maximum power rating of 200 PS (147 kW; 197 hp) at 7000 rpm and a maximum torque rating of 205 N⋅m (151 lb⋅ft) at 6600 rpm. The compression ratio is 12.5:1.[6] In 2016, for the 2017 model year, power was increased to 208 PS (153 kW; 205 hp) when equipped with a manual transmission.[7] The 4U-GSE was discontinued in 2021, following the introduction of the second-generation Toyota 86 (also known as the Toyota GR86) and Subaru BRZ, which uses a 2.4-liter FA24D. Unlike the FA20, it does not use a Toyota engine code.” I can’t upload files or post links to pattens as youtube takes them down, but have a look at the designs. Just like the BMW Supra. Great car, but not a Toyota. Putting on a set of Ohlins wouldnt make it a Ohlin drivetrain or chassis. It’s just a component. IAG also tunes the engines, re sleeves them, puts forged pistons, rods, crank shaft etc in the aftermarket. But it still is a Subaru engine. Fun true Toyota is GR Yaris and GR Corolla. Good cars, lotta fun. Anyway, Legacy chassis are based on Imprezas. All Subaru chassis start based on Impreza as their global platform philosophy goes. Both Toyota and Subaru are okay little fun cars to drive. From serviceability perspective, both are horrible. The stock throwout bearing kills itself, clutch fork cracks and comes with a lot of hu haas. Not to mention gasket in oil pan and doing the spark plugs. No need to be a fan of any of them 😎. Cheers.
@RexinOridle - Oh yeah they are totally a pain to work on for sure. Not much space in the engine bay. Yeah if you compare the EJ20 and FA20 side by side there are many block and head differences. The bore and stoke for one are totally different ; 86x86 funnily enough. Toyota were involved with the engine from top to bottom as Subaru didn’t have a history of high revving NA engines like Toyota had. Ultimately being an engine built by Subaru in a Subaru factory it makes sense that it looks like a Subaru engine and doesn’t boldly show much in the way of Toyota handywork for that reason, but Toyota were definitely involved. The BMW B58 in the Supra is clearly all a BMW design, however Toyota still had a complete strip down and review of the engine before it was stamped for approval for the Supra. Yeah the problem with Wikipedia is that any average Joe can edit it and a lot of things are just plain wrong unfortunately. My knowledge of the Toybaru twins comes mostly from following its development from conception and speaking to Toyota engineers plus seeing displays/talks whilst out in Japan during the press release of the BRZ/86. Ohlins make suspension of course and suspension and chassis are two very different things as I’m sure you know; so I can see what you were trying to say but that analogy doesn’t really work unfortunately. I never said the cars use a Toyota Chassis or that putting Toyota direct injection onto the FA20 makes it a Toyota engine, but remember Tetsua Tada was the chief engineer on the 86/BRZ and worked for Toyota. So even if things were made by Subaru in a Subaru factory using Subaru parts they were still done within the parameters set by Toyota’s design brief. But the BRZ/86 are clearly a culmination of both Toyota and Subaru. But just going back to your original comment it would be wrong to say “it’s just a Subaru anyway, except for the transmission” as without Toyota the BRZ wouldn’t even exist. But I totally understand where you are coming from.
Its not a new chassis. Its the same chassis with very minor tweaks. Like a Porsche 911 991 vs a 911 992. Both 95% the same car. Also its not a new engine, its the same basic engine as before with a few changes like a 400cc increase in displacement. Seats are 95% identical to the old ones too. Any mf can easily see that ;)
Toyota 86 GTS: lighter, shorter, better fuel economy, better looking, simpler, bigger boot entrance, better interior, analogue gauges, engine revs out better, cheaper, better steering, a few simple mods brings the power up if you need it. Better in every way. Cheers from Australia.
The GR86 has the “right turn issue”, also the engine is 90% RTV so the moment you decide to take the GR86 off the lot, thats the first mod you HAVE to do or else it will go up in flames. I’ve driven both. It’s just not worth the difference in price. For where the GR86 stands, you can get a GT86 there with an Ecutek tune and an upgraded fuel pump/spark plugs and fuel injectors. Also the steering in the GR86 just feels more disconnected than the GT86. When the GR86 got announced, my wife and I decided to get the latest GT86 model instead for the reliability. We also liked the GT86 style taillights.
@@bingebeng What? I'm not agreeing with you. This guys video isn't a cap. He's got a point. Just cause something is new and has more horsepower doesn't mean its better. Take the skyline for example. Same case for the GTR. The old ones are just better. Build quality etc. Regardless of horsepower and year date. This is such an easy, logical conclusion to come to.
@@BluePickleZ You were onto something until you mentioned the GTR lol. The new one is a purpose-built premium supercar that doesn't share anything with other cars, but the old one was a Skyline at the end of the day. It may have been fast, but the interior was nothing special compared to other cars of its class in the day.
Because it’s actually an excellent gearbox. There is a big misconception that you ‘must’ buy a manual 86/brz, but the reality is that the auto has a number of advantages over the manual; especially on track or if you turbo/supercharge your car. I’ll freely admit that when shopping for a car I initially wasn’t interested in the auto because of the poorer 0-60 times on paper. However I then drove one and was blown away by how much quicker it felt than the manual and how rapid it shifts gear in flappy paddle M mode. For me, the auto box is the best thing about the car and a really under rated hidden gem. I still like the manual box on these cars, but as a track enthusiast I absolutely love the auto box, so that is what I went for and have never regretted it. The BRZ project I am working on will be manual (for reasons I’ll explain during the course of those videos), so I will be able to do a video on Auto Vs Manual soon, discuss the details on both gearboxes and debunk a lot of the myths.
@@leedfollow I won't put anyone down for having an automatic gearbox because I like standard but the only place automatic is better than manual in motorsport is drag racing and that is it. In the new gr86 the automatic is actually slower than the manual when it comes to that as well.
@lilbigyell If that was true, why are pretty much all supercars now flappy paddle autos? Why are all Mercedes AMG cars and (99% of) BMW M cars all Autos? Why are manufacturers dropping manual gearboxes? It’s because in performance cars autos are now outperforming manuals. Unfortunately you have just repeated the same mistake most people make. They “assume” the auto 86 is a slow car simply because they read the figures in the brochure and the website and “Thats it, end of story”. On road yes it’s technically about 1 second slower 0-60 and a few mph top speed, but on track it is not. None of us are dumb enough to race on the public roads, so track is the only place where you can safely use your car as it is meant to be used and therefore on track is the only place real performance is important. On track the top speed and 0-60 is meaningless as you never get near top speed anyway and you never come to a complete stop (unless something goes very wrong lol). On a race track the auto shifts way faster and never has to come off the power like a manual does (this includes flat shifting, you still lose drive even doing that). And if you go Turbo/Supercharger the extra power fills those longer auto gear ratios perfectly and works better than the short manual ratios. Unfortunately they don’t tell you this in the magazine reviews. You really have to take both a manual and an auto out on track back to back to see how awesome the auto is. My current BRZ project will be a manual, but its going to be slower out on track than my auto 86; its just a fact and I accept that but thats fine by me as I’ll have both plus I can do comparison videos in the future explaining the difference between the two boxes in detail. But the problem is most people have never even driven an auto 86 on the road, let alone track and proceed to pass judgement on it based on no personal experience at all. Which is also fine as us auto 86 drivers are quite the smug little club out on track because we know something that’s nobody else seems to know (or want to know) lol
You realise this is a UK channel right? And in the UK they only sold about 200 GR86’s right? Toyota only did a limited production run for the UK. So yes over here GR86 = Rare car.
Just buy a Miata, you would be doing better, exactly same ehhh that's like saying B20 and H22 are the same vehicle, it has a bigger engine in the GR the GT86 power band is trash, 😂
B20 and H22 aren’t vehicles…. They are Honda engines and totally different engines in fact; they don’t share anything. FA20 and FA24 are the same engine only with different cylinder bores.
I bought a new GT86 manual when they first came out and it was the best steering feel of all my cars. After a year I was over it for lack of practicality and for some reason suddenly fell out of love with the looks? That's a mystery because they look great again. The gearbox wasn't my favourite and was replaced after 18,000km with failed 5th gear syncro. I loved the way the engine revved it's heart out and sounded wonderful with the Nameless catback I fitted. 3 years ago I bought a 2018 370Z auto with 7,000km from new for AU$37,000 that was sitting in the local Nissan dealer showroom and have been in love with it ever since. Both the GT86 and the ND MX-5 that filled the gap, were cars that I could ring their necks and drive on the limit but the 370Z matches those limits with ease, feeling effortless and intoxicating. I'm not game to test the limits but have had it step out twice and was relieved and impressed that it was instantly catchable, unlike the MX-5 even when it was modified. Get the 370Z! It's less practical than the GT86 so you will need another car and mine is an i20N. Both are great to drive but the 370Z supplies the most adrenalin to make this old fellow feel 18 again, especially overtaking!
great video man, just bought a crashed 2018 gt86 for 11k euro and fixing it up with a buddy of mine, can’t wait to drive this beauty
Congrats! Enjoy! :)
I followed the pre release of the GT 86 keenly and when it was finally released in 2012, put my money down and waited 6 months for my GTS, the premium model in Australia. In the first month, I covered 10,000 kms driving the most stunning roads around Australia, including Tasmania. I now have 150,000 kms of trouble free motoring under my belt and checked out the new GR86 thinking I would upgrade but decided I liked the less fussy, cleaner style of the original model. I still thoroughly enjoy every drive I do in this car. You can't go wrong with the original.
That’s certainly the way to do it! :)
I had a gt86. 2014 car. Loved it. I bought it 4 years old, 14k for £13995!! Try finding that spec today!
I went to toyota on release day to order a gr86. But didn’t get one. 35k now is a lot of money. Now i have had time to think about it i agree.
Gen one pre facelift, fix the torque dip.
Its time to buy something to keep and enjoy for years to come as the world goes electric. Im looking at a diverse choice.
1 gt86/brz
2 s2000
3 mx5
4 z4
I think you are right, it would not take much to change the torque dip. I had and ep3 type r. A good engine really adds to a car. Fix the dip leave the rest.
I think i will buy another one next year.
Sorry to hear you didn’t get on the list for a GR86. But as you say £35k is a lot. Imagine picking up another low mileage GT86 and modifying it nicely. Will be a lot cheaper and no less fun :)
Fantastic video - I'm shocked that you don't have more subscribers. I've been on the fence about getting into a GT86 for a while now - I own a Celica and an Audi (which I really don't enjoy despite it being fast) and was thinking of combining the two into a GT86 as my daily, I miss having a car that not many people drive.
Many thanks! Having come from a history of Celica’s myself I can tell you the 86 is a much smaller car but its a very very different drive to the Celica. If you can replace your Celica/Audi with an 86 then I’m certain you won’t regret it!
I have owned a GT86 for 5 years. She has been running on ethanol for 3 years. This is the only modification I have, stock air filter, stock header. I have already converted cars to E85 but this is the first time I have seen such an increase in power on an NA engine. I have never run it on the bench, I cannot speak of figures, but the behavior is radically different. I think that the engine is designed for a high octane number due to its design (12.5 compression ratio and double injection). Sports cars that optimize the E85 engine without changing the injectors and/or the pump are rare, and in my humble opinion this was planned by Subaru. The original mapping is not at all optimized (timing, AFR much too rich) in relation to the potential of the engine. Afterwards, it's normal that Subaru must adapt to all the qualities of fuel in the world. Of course I could be wrong....I'm not a mechanic but I worked a lot on the mapping of my engine. It's just a feeling.
Totally agree! From my experience I believe the quality of the fuel is massively important on the FA20D. Makes zero sense to me why people would try to run their sports car on poor fuel.
A future classic certainly 😎
Lets hope so… I may need to buy a 2nd car as a future investment! :)
Good video - I quite fancy a GT86. The GR is getting hyped because it’s new and there’s nothing out there like it - I’m sure it’s great but give it a few years and you will see loads of “why the GR86 isn’t as good as people say” videos on you tube - honestly it happens every time as people love to knock good things off their perches. GT86 won loads of group tests when new, people have just forgotten
Couldn't agree more! :)
I own a 2012 gt86 with the TRD bodykit. Best thing: it has 8700 miles on it. Hopefully will be a classic one day.
I’m sure it will :) Not many with mileage as low as that!
Good video, thanks. I just had the opportunity on the second round to purchase a gr86 but decided to stay with my lightly modified gt86 which ive owned since 2012. Sure, there are flaws, but imperfections don't stop classics being classics!
Totally agree :)
Great review,test driving a club edition this weekend,I’m hoping to take it home with me .
Cool stuff. Have fun!
in EU, Germany for example, 2012-2013 gt86s are still 23.000 eur, 2018-19 are 28-30k, so little depreciation but the bubble will burst. i think they dont sell well. whereas u can get slightly used gr86 for 36k. quite a dilemma.
Cool. Honest GT86’s are as little as 8k Euros in the UK.
@@leedfollow wow yeah thats a different situation. idk, EU car market has lost its mind.
Yeah, crazy times. Market has gone mad.
The perfect 86 would be the GR but with the more agressive look of the gt and a newer version of the stock spoiler on the gt. For such a small spoiler those little fins make it look so great
Totally agree :)
I currently own a gt86 2018 facelift version. I really have doubts that the GR86 is "better" by a huge margin.
I like you video and your honest review.
I have owned a S2000 AP1, a DC5, EP3, and a MK1 Lotus Elise.
Based on most of the reviews VS my ownership experience... I can tell you that most video reviews are hyped up.
For example, the steering feedback of an S2000 is numb compared to a GT86. But on UA-cam, many reviewer says the S2000 is fantastic. Personally I prefer the GT86 driving experience and chasis balance.
Thanks Robert. Stock for stock the GR86 is a decent improvement over the GT86. Which is what we would expect from Toyota. But I agree with what you say and I think bang for buck getting a cheaper GT86 here in the UK and then modifying it can make a car thats better than the GR86 for less money.
I will probably be doing some "stage 1" tune ups to get some extra performance than buying a GR.
Have not decided what to upgrade yet. Definitely considering to change my rims. Looking at RAYS, but their crazy expensive. Thanks again for your real review. 👍👍👍
Try a Miata for your next car or a second car they are such a driver's car.. and with a turbo kit they are extremely wild
Gr86 is an evolution from the previous, period. The torque dip improvement and extended torque band are clear steps ahead from the old. Gr86 is a fun car simply made better from inside out. Does it make the GT86 an inferior car? Not quite, but not until you have compared to the current
Totally agree (y)
My GR86 is coming in September. The difference is night and day. I could never get on with the GT86's lack of power which was its only downside. The GR86 has basically fixed everything wrong with the original. The residuals will be fantastic due to rarity. The old GT86 was never 200 BHP. More like 180ish whereas the GR86 has been shown on the dyno to read more around 250BHP rather than the 228 standard. You only have to look at the Carwow vid to see the difference between the two.
Congrats on getting a GR86… however you’re simply wrong about the GT86. Had my GT86 dynoed when it was still NA and only had a few basic mods/map… made 212bhp. If people are only making 180bhp they must be using the wrong fuel (95/97ron) or have something wrong with their cars. But as I said in the video, you can buy a GT86, modify it and it’ll outperform a GR86 for less money. I have 302bhp/260ftlb for less than the price of a GR86.
I was at a dyno day with my Toyota Celica GT-Four at the time. These were stock GT86's. I am merely experiencing my experience of stock vs stock. GR86's with a manifold and map are making 260-270BHP which is still a massive 50BHP difference to a GT86 with the same mods. That is before you start talking about torque differences.@@leedfollow
Well as a fellow Celica GT-Four owner I think we can both agree how easy you can make power when you’re using forced induction but an NA engine is a different game entirely. But you’re saying with just a manifold and map someone has made near 270bhp on a stock NA FA24? Are you actually being serious here? You’re joking right? Because I’d LOVE to see the dyno results proof of that as I really don’t think that is possible at all. Maybe on E50/E85 but never pump gas on a stock engine. But lets come back to this video not being about the GR86; Its about how the GT86 is a great alternative if you didn’t get a GR86. And talking about torque, for less than the price of a GR86 I have 260ftlb of torque. You’ll never ever get that out of an NA FA24.
You only have to spend 2 seconds on Google to see the GT86's make less than 200hp stock. Maybe if you dyno'd a GR86 at the same place then it'd be showing 270hp lol
Congratulations @jimiyo2 :) You’ve read something someone else posted on the internet so it must be true! And you’ve repeated it so it must now be a fact! You get a gold star :) The internet is lucky to have you. Keep up the good work....
I have a 2017 manual 86 that I’ve put s turbo on. I wouldn’t exchange it for anything in the world
An 86 with boost is a wonderful thing :)
Not the same car at all. I have had both the GT86 and the GR86 now and no, the GR86 is substantially better in Every way. I understand what they say about the steering feeling a bit more electronic than the GT86, but it also lets you steer faster. I guess if you are in England and have limited choices, the GT86 is a great option. But no man, I loved my GT86 but I love my GR86 a lot more.
Totally understand what you are saying. But the truth is they are the same car underneath. GR86 is more of a GT86 v2. Glad to hear you are enjoying your GR86 though :)
You're mistaken
While there are some chancers out there (whose cars aren't selling), you can buy a used GR86 with a few hundred miles, for cost price.
Or you can buy a 2020 GT86, with 25,000 miles, for £23k (that's the cheapest, unless you go older).
The GR is a better car in every single way, except steering feel - which is a little better on the GT86, but still great on the GR.
We'll have to agree to disagree :) "The GR is a better car in every single way, except steering feel"... and weight... and looks... and price (on the used car market)... but then I didn't actually say anywhere in the video that the GT86 was a better car than the GR86 :) I've only said that the GT86 is the better used buy.... which was the whole point of this video...
@@leedfollow
We can disagree :)
I think the GR weighs about 20kg more, which is almost nothing (it has aluminium parts like roof, bonnet etc, compared to steel on the GT). The GR has a lower centre of gravity too.
I know you didn't claim the GT was better. I wanted to buy a GT but as you say in the video, they've held their price so well I don't think they represent the great value that they used to.
Your version (with its interior) is fairly rare, and not what everyone buying used would get. I've no doubt you'll continue to enjoy it.
This is a real quality content man!!! I wish you all the best so you could reach 1 Million Subs soon.
By the way is it possible to tune a stock Scion FRS / GT86 into getting 300 HP without adding anything like supercharger / turbo?
I'm looking to get a used Scion FRS instead of the new GR 86 soon, because lots of youtubers said that the new GR86 / subaru BRZ has that engine failure and RTV issue so I am kind of worried.
Thanks
Thanks for the kind words. Taking the FA20 engine to 300bhp without a turbo/supercharger is technically possible however its going to be way more difficult and expensive than fitting a turbo/supercharger plus it would probably make the car awful to drive on public roads. In order to reach 300bhp while remaining naturally aspirated it would require lots of internal engine balancing, intake/exhaust modifications and cam upgrades to increase rpm to the point you are making that level of power. Nobody goes that route because its way cheaper and easier to turbo/supercharger an FA20 and retain its day to day drive ability.
@@leedfollow thanks so much for the clear explanation man, cheers !!!
I agree and disagree. I am in the United States and got a GR86 Premium as my first car that I bought myself as a college student. Few of my friends have BRZ's / FRS's / GT86's, and in my opinion the GR86 is much more modern on the inside and a better place to be because of the way it looks compared to their cars. I think since the GT86's are so high in value on the used market, and how close they are to the GR86, it is a better deal for people to get the GR86 rather than going used. I liked having peace of mind with having myself be the only owner, but that comes with buying a new car. I think the GR86 does look better and comes with better equipment than the GT86, but honestly, buy what you want at the end of the day. We only live once, so drive what you want and not what you regret. Both cars are amazing.
Totally agree :)
Can the GT 86 take right turns without getting oil starved and blowing up?
Lol yes it definitely can. That oil starvation issue is certainly an FA24 (GR86) issue and not an FA20 (GT86) issue. My 86 has done nearly 20k track miles and I monitor the oil pressure constantly, it never takes a huge dip on any turns; left or right.
Why not get both?
If you can afford to have both then it would be absolutely awesome! :)
Cabin space is exactly the same?
Front and Rear seat space exactly the same?
Yep. As they are both the same car the interior space is all the same.
I bought a gr86 kuz i've never seen a gt86 sold near me 😅
Good stuff (y)
Does the old one have hydraulic steering vs the new electric one?(sorry I was just reading the subtitles)
Both have electric steering
If you can afford the new version.... There is objectively zero reason to get the first gen. It's like the difference between a GT3 and a Carrera S.
I would argue the steering... I bought an old gen because it didn't have the same steering feel. Everything else is great on the GR
Except for all the reasons I mentioned in the video. Looks, weight, steering etc Also the older cars engines doesn’t lose oil pressure on track in high speed right hand bends…
@@Accepting_AE86_Donations Id agree the steering is marginally better. But even the gen 2 is better than 90% of cars on the road today as well.
@@leedfollowthe GR looks 100x better
@@leedfollowDon't know about the looks..but those are subjective right?
Just get the BRZ. You get better support from the delarship. It's a Subaru anyway, except for the transmission.
Unless you don’t like the looks of the BRZ face which is different to the 86. Engine is also a Toyota design. And from my experience Toyota support is better than Subaru but maybe you are in a different country? But you know the suspension, front bumper, interior spec and colours are different right? The BRZ gets a more understeer bias setup and the 86 gets a more oversteer bias setup. Personally having driven both I find the 86 setup way more fun. But at the core they are all the same car, so they’re all great. Just slight differences to cater for everyone’s varying tastes.
@@leedfollow I'm in Canada. Yes, perhaps Toyota does provide better service somewhere, but in North America, Subie dealers do them better, and they have all the parts, know them inside out. But not to confuse with the best jobs. Nobody will take care of the car better than the owner.
Engine is FA20 in the old one and FA24 in the new one. Subaru boxers inside and out. Toyota doesn't even go anywhere near any boxers. Only Toyota in there is the Dual injection system design, which they had to do due to Toyota's share in the company and their patents. The transmission, both manual and auto are Aisins, which is basically Lexus. But the clutch is Subaru design. Even the chassis is based on an Impreza (Subaru global chassis); from strut towers, structural rails, pillars to fuel tank designbut tuned by Toyota. I believe seatbelts are designed/manufactured by Nissan. Well Nissan pretty much does all Japanese belts. The wheel bearing/hub is based on the Crostreck and the old Imprezas. Everything is done in Subaru Gunma prefecture in Japan.
@RexinOridle Actually Toyota already did Boxer engines before the 86 - this was not their first. Before the 4U (Toyota internal designation of the FA20) they already did a U and 2U boxer engine for the Publica, MiniAce and Sport 800. Toyota did more than just the direct injection on the FA20. The whole engine was worked on by Toyota hence why its very very different to the EJ20 which was a fully Subaru design. Same with the FA24 which is in essence just an FA20 with an extra 400cc. Yes both gearboxes are by Aisin which is a subsidiary of Toyota (As is Subaru technically as Toyota own a huge share of Subaru). The chassis isn’t actually based on the Impreza entirely, it’s a hybrid which shares traits with both the Impreza and the Legacy but is unique to the BRZ/86. Yes this was to enable the use of existing Impreza/Legacy components where possible to keep development and production costs to a minimum but also helped them to easily reuse the existing Gunma production line. The alternative for a RWD car would have been the larger Toyota/Lexus parts bin which would cost too much and be too heavy for such a small car. If you are a BRZ fan then we’ve got something coming in the future which I think you will very much like :) But for now its a secret.
@@leedfollow Interesting. I’ve been working on a variety of F engines (FA20A, FA20B, FB20, Fa20DIT), and Porsches. Haven’t noticed a single Toyota design touch on FA20D. 4U is the code they use at the dealership for the block. Bought block from them as-well. If my memory recalls right, even the pattens are Subaru for the designs. This is also a straight quote (wikipedia out of all places):
“Appearing in the Toyota 86 (also known as the Toyota GT 86 in Europe, Scion FR-S in the US and Subaru BRZ), the 4U-GSE is a boxer type engine with four cylinders and a bore and stroke of 86 mm (3.39 in). The engine is a Subaru designed-and-built flat-four engine called the FA20D, with a Toyota engine code. The engine is built at Subaru's Oizumi Plant in Ota, Gunma. It features Toyota's D4-S direct and port injection systems, with a maximum power rating of 200 PS (147 kW; 197 hp) at 7000 rpm and a maximum torque rating of 205 N⋅m (151 lb⋅ft) at 6600 rpm. The compression ratio is 12.5:1.[6] In 2016, for the 2017 model year, power was increased to 208 PS (153 kW; 205 hp) when equipped with a manual transmission.[7]
The 4U-GSE was discontinued in 2021, following the introduction of the second-generation Toyota 86 (also known as the Toyota GR86) and Subaru BRZ, which uses a 2.4-liter FA24D. Unlike the FA20, it does not use a Toyota engine code.”
I can’t upload files or post links to pattens as youtube takes them down, but have a look at the designs. Just like the BMW Supra. Great car, but not a Toyota. Putting on a set of Ohlins wouldnt make it a Ohlin drivetrain or chassis. It’s just a component. IAG also tunes the engines, re sleeves them, puts forged pistons, rods, crank shaft etc in the aftermarket. But it still is a Subaru engine. Fun true Toyota is GR Yaris and GR Corolla. Good cars, lotta fun. Anyway, Legacy chassis are based on Imprezas. All Subaru chassis start based on Impreza as their global platform philosophy goes. Both Toyota and Subaru are okay little fun cars to drive. From serviceability perspective, both are horrible. The stock throwout bearing kills itself, clutch fork cracks and comes with a lot of hu haas. Not to mention gasket in oil pan and doing the spark plugs. No need to be a fan of any of them 😎. Cheers.
@RexinOridle - Oh yeah they are totally a pain to work on for sure. Not much space in the engine bay. Yeah if you compare the EJ20 and FA20 side by side there are many block and head differences. The bore and stoke for one are totally different ; 86x86 funnily enough. Toyota were involved with the engine from top to bottom as Subaru didn’t have a history of high revving NA engines like Toyota had. Ultimately being an engine built by Subaru in a Subaru factory it makes sense that it looks like a Subaru engine and doesn’t boldly show much in the way of Toyota handywork for that reason, but Toyota were definitely involved. The BMW B58 in the Supra is clearly all a BMW design, however Toyota still had a complete strip down and review of the engine before it was stamped for approval for the Supra. Yeah the problem with Wikipedia is that any average Joe can edit it and a lot of things are just plain wrong unfortunately. My knowledge of the Toybaru twins comes mostly from following its development from conception and speaking to Toyota engineers plus seeing displays/talks whilst out in Japan during the press release of the BRZ/86. Ohlins make suspension of course and suspension and chassis are two very different things as I’m sure you know; so I can see what you were trying to say but that analogy doesn’t really work unfortunately. I never said the cars use a Toyota Chassis or that putting Toyota direct injection onto the FA20 makes it a Toyota engine, but remember Tetsua Tada was the chief engineer on the 86/BRZ and worked for Toyota. So even if things were made by Subaru in a Subaru factory using Subaru parts they were still done within the parameters set by Toyota’s design brief. But the BRZ/86 are clearly a culmination of both Toyota and Subaru. But just going back to your original comment it would be wrong to say “it’s just a Subaru anyway, except for the transmission” as without Toyota the BRZ wouldn’t even exist. But I totally understand where you are coming from.
"Its the exact same car just with a new engine, chassis, drivetrain, interior and exterior" - mf thats a whole new car
Its not a new chassis. Its the same chassis with very minor tweaks. Like a Porsche 911 991 vs a 911 992. Both 95% the same car. Also its not a new engine, its the same basic engine as before with a few changes like a 400cc increase in displacement. Seats are 95% identical to the old ones too. Any mf can easily see that ;)
because GT86 over half of the price of GR86 nowadays
A good excuse to have more than one! :)
Toyota 86 GTS: lighter, shorter, better fuel economy, better looking, simpler, bigger boot entrance, better interior, analogue gauges, engine revs out better, cheaper, better steering, a few simple mods brings the power up if you need it. Better in every way. Cheers from Australia.
Haha cheers! :) The original is hard to beat!
This video is a huge Cap
“Huge Cap”? like Captain America yeah? Thanks we’ll take that as a compliment :p
you're corny as hell.@@leedfollow
The GR86 has the “right turn issue”, also the engine is 90% RTV so the moment you decide to take the GR86 off the lot, thats the first mod you HAVE to do or else it will go up in flames. I’ve driven both. It’s just not worth the difference in price. For where the GR86 stands, you can get a GT86 there with an Ecutek tune and an upgraded fuel pump/spark plugs and fuel injectors. Also the steering in the GR86 just feels more disconnected than the GT86.
When the GR86 got announced, my wife and I decided to get the latest GT86 model instead for the reliability. We also liked the GT86 style taillights.
@@bingebeng What? I'm not agreeing with you. This guys video isn't a cap. He's got a point. Just cause something is new and has more horsepower doesn't mean its better. Take the skyline for example. Same case for the GTR. The old ones are just better. Build quality etc. Regardless of horsepower and year date. This is such an easy, logical conclusion to come to.
@@BluePickleZ You were onto something until you mentioned the GTR lol. The new one is a purpose-built premium supercar that doesn't share anything with other cars, but the old one was a Skyline at the end of the day. It may have been fast, but the interior was nothing special compared to other cars of its class in the day.
Automatic. Why?
Because it’s actually an excellent gearbox. There is a big misconception that you ‘must’ buy a manual 86/brz, but the reality is that the auto has a number of advantages over the manual; especially on track or if you turbo/supercharge your car. I’ll freely admit that when shopping for a car I initially wasn’t interested in the auto because of the poorer 0-60 times on paper. However I then drove one and was blown away by how much quicker it felt than the manual and how rapid it shifts gear in flappy paddle M mode. For me, the auto box is the best thing about the car and a really under rated hidden gem. I still like the manual box on these cars, but as a track enthusiast I absolutely love the auto box, so that is what I went for and have never regretted it. The BRZ project I am working on will be manual (for reasons I’ll explain during the course of those videos), so I will be able to do a video on Auto Vs Manual soon, discuss the details on both gearboxes and debunk a lot of the myths.
@@leedfollow I won't put anyone down for having an automatic gearbox because I like standard but the only place automatic is better than manual in motorsport is drag racing and that is it. In the new gr86 the automatic is actually slower than the manual when it comes to that as well.
@lilbigyell If that was true, why are pretty much all supercars now flappy paddle autos? Why are all Mercedes AMG cars and (99% of) BMW M cars all Autos? Why are manufacturers dropping manual gearboxes? It’s because in performance cars autos are now outperforming manuals. Unfortunately you have just repeated the same mistake most people make. They “assume” the auto 86 is a slow car simply because they read the figures in the brochure and the website and “Thats it, end of story”. On road yes it’s technically about 1 second slower 0-60 and a few mph top speed, but on track it is not. None of us are dumb enough to race on the public roads, so track is the only place where you can safely use your car as it is meant to be used and therefore on track is the only place real performance is important. On track the top speed and 0-60 is meaningless as you never get near top speed anyway and you never come to a complete stop (unless something goes very wrong lol). On a race track the auto shifts way faster and never has to come off the power like a manual does (this includes flat shifting, you still lose drive even doing that). And if you go Turbo/Supercharger the extra power fills those longer auto gear ratios perfectly and works better than the short manual ratios. Unfortunately they don’t tell you this in the magazine reviews. You really have to take both a manual and an auto out on track back to back to see how awesome the auto is. My current BRZ project will be a manual, but its going to be slower out on track than my auto 86; its just a fact and I accept that but thats fine by me as I’ll have both plus I can do comparison videos in the future explaining the difference between the two boxes in detail. But the problem is most people have never even driven an auto 86 on the road, let alone track and proceed to pass judgement on it based on no personal experience at all. Which is also fine as us auto 86 drivers are quite the smug little club out on track because we know something that’s nobody else seems to know (or want to know) lol
absolutely num rare abt a gr 86
Thanks
@@leedfollow it’s literally one of easiest cars to find idk who told they rare💀
You realise this is a UK channel right? And in the UK they only sold about 200 GR86’s right? Toyota only did a limited production run for the UK. So yes over here GR86 = Rare car.
@@leedfollow fair enough
@@leedfollow at least yall got the yaris😭 its probably bcuz initial D is very popular in america
Just buy a Miata, you would be doing better, exactly same ehhh that's like saying B20 and H22 are the same vehicle, it has a bigger engine in the GR the GT86 power band is trash, 😂
Those don't have the sauce the gr86 does
Plus... a rear seat
Miata's are for hairdressers
B20 and H22 aren’t vehicles…. They are Honda engines and totally different engines in fact; they don’t share anything. FA20 and FA24 are the same engine only with different cylinder bores.
Miata is a clown car size
man Im stuck between this or 370Z….. I know this gen handles great but the forklift engine turns me off
Forklift engine?
Def get a 370z, much better car ;) (Ed)
I bought a new GT86 manual when they first came out and it was the best steering feel of all my cars. After a year I was over it for lack of practicality and for some reason suddenly fell out of love with the looks? That's a mystery because they look great again. The gearbox wasn't my favourite and was replaced after 18,000km with failed 5th gear syncro. I loved the way the engine revved it's heart out and sounded wonderful with the Nameless catback I fitted.
3 years ago I bought a 2018 370Z auto with 7,000km from new for AU$37,000 that was sitting in the local Nissan dealer showroom and have been in love with it ever since. Both the GT86 and the ND MX-5 that filled the gap, were cars that I could ring their necks and drive on the limit but the 370Z matches those limits with ease, feeling effortless and intoxicating. I'm not game to test the limits but have had it step out twice and was relieved and impressed that it was instantly catchable, unlike the MX-5 even when it was modified.
Get the 370Z! It's less practical than the GT86 so you will need another car and mine is an i20N. Both are great to drive but the 370Z supplies the most adrenalin to make this old fellow feel 18 again, especially overtaking!