I heard someone suggest perfect parry should only work if the directional inputs are in a neutral or non-block direction so that if you go for it you can't hold block as a fail safe. You can still parry while holding a block direction but it will never perfect parry if you do.
@@wata1991 You can hold parry without a direction now and it will work just fine, it's just that most people hold down/back or back so if they miss the perfect parry timing they still block. The point is not to take that away but rather disallow perfect parry if you're holding block. So if you're holding back and tap parry, you will parry, but you will not perfect parry even if you hit the 2F window. This also means that if you go for perfect parry and are 1F too late you get hit because you're not blocking.
@@wata1991I don't think you understand the problem people have with perfect parry. The issue is that if I'm on the defensive and I'm holding down back and I think I've got a read on my opponent's pressure then I can just tap parry while holding block to fish for a PP and if my timing is wrong what happens? Too early: I get a regular parry and go back to blocking so I gain a small amount of meter and still have to hold the pressure OR the parry may not even come out if I'm still in block stun from the previous move. Too late: I'm already blocking so the parry doesn't come out due to being in block stun. So the risk of making that attempt is very low. But the reward if I hit that PP is very high. Depending on what I parried I might get just about any punish I want: I can side switch, maybe put my opponent into the corner, I might even be able to win the game if my opponent is low and I have level 3 (still maxes the scaling at 50%). So we have a very low risk option with a very rewarding payoff if successful. Now if I have to release block to try for a PP what happens? Too early: Same as before but now blocking might be trickier because I had to release it and go back to it. The risk of eating a PC combo is higher. Too late: I get opened up because I'm not blocking, opponent gets a full combo. The risk I take to go for PP is much higher if I can't hold block as a fail safe. If you want to try and solve the problem of having to block correctly by tapping and holding parry when under pressure you're certainly welcome to try. There's a reason no one really minds the normal parry, it's because it has universal counter play options and it is no better to parry attacks than to block them in terms of frame (dis)advantage apart from meter gain.
Not if you're late. If you're late, you haven't even inputted parry yet, therefore you won't get a parry. The point is that right now, you can hold back while trying to parry, so trying for PP is really safe. However, if there's a real punish to being late now, where you can't get a block and actually get hit, people will try PPing way less. @@wata1991
I think if they got rid of the screen freeze when a perfect parry is executed off a normal then it would take more skill to actually capitalize from it, requiring you to have quicker reactions and be more aware, making it less of a brain dead option
With burnout and parry, they go hand in hand. If you make being in burnout easier, and parry harder to do, then you're very potentially trading issues. You can mash parry, it uses drive meter, you can throw them and they take punish counter damage, and meter damage... i think if your opponent is just mashing drive parry, you should tailor your gameplan around that to get them in burnout, to get them into those checkmate scenarios. Im not a pro (I'm in Master with 2 characters, but I'm still nowhere near that level, but I kind of found those systems really satisfying. They're easy to understand, hard to execute, and when it happens you immediately understand why that works, unlike other games like Granblue for instance, where some of the underlying systems are needlessly obtuse, or are inconsistent. SF6 feels fairly consistent
@@blastimbreI would be interested to know too. I play both granblue rising and sf6. I like granblue for the anime theme, but the gameplay itself feels great too.i also did play the previous game, rising made certain normals more minus as they added dash attacks as a pressure tool. Rage strike is quite obviously inspired by DI I feel. both rage strike, chain and reversal were great additions/replacements for tactical move. Ultimate skills also changes how you use the super meter for the better I feel. There is alot more resource management now and I like that.
Nerf the normal parry? Make it low and high separately? What about Dalshim and Aki that are practically hellpless in the corner against mad pressure against ken, Luke, cammy, dee jay ?
I am still waiting on simple things like color edit which was in cvs2. Say they want ppl to pay for new costumes but then should be able to change the colors on that costume. The world tour let's you do stuff but I mainly want to play ranked online matches.
Drive rush in neutral should be 2 bars. Those plus frame situations you get out of those are crazy and the whole cast doesn’t have great buttons to check them.
I like the delayed wake-up idea. It'll definitely blow up a lot of characters' safe jump options though, so it's tough to say how drastically it would shift the game's balance.
At the same time, it'd also probably make new safejumps possible with framekills. It could add a little bit of a mind game to wake up recovery game. Also if they add stuff like maybe after getting hit by a super, you can't quick recover. Or if you get knocked down by a punish counter, you can't quick recover(similar to getting hit by a crush counter sweep in sfv). Obviously it'd take a lot of thought to properly implement those things but yeah
yea, maybe make it so you can only delay rise on wake up in place and not delay rise on back rise - that way if your opponent reads your delayed rise, they're closer to you with more frame advantage, which could prevent delayed rise becoming too strong??
@@Spookyjordandepends on how long the delay get up frames are. In SF4 it's over 20 frames. It kills vortex but at the same time opponent is still safe if their vortex or meaty whiffs. In SF5 quick rise and back roll is only 5 frames different. So if some one tries to meaty you with a medium or heavy normal or even a special move, if you guess right with your wake up timing and opponent whiffs you can actually punish them for being too minus on whiff. That made SF5 very scrubby and random since randomising your wake up timing and spamming jab on wakeup becomes a legit strat. If SF6 would to introduce delay wake up, the timing should be at least over 20f. However it can still fk up some meaty options like drive impact which has 26 recovery frames. Delay wake up was introduced late in SF4 to counter vortex, they then use back roll in SF5 as another method to mess up vortex but fk up with the timing which made the game scrubby. SF6 got it right. However the problem lies in things like throw loops and drive rush meaty. What should be changed imo is removing all throw loops and make drive rush on block be +2 instead of +4. Or even make drive rushing a blocking opponent not lose any drive meter. Or even make interrupting a drive rush attempt trigger punish counter state, interrupting with a heavy normal triggers crumble state. Reducing and limiting drive rush advantage will discourage people from spamming it mindlessly. Messing with wakeup delay might create even more problems down the road.
hear me out. You can't Drive Rush in neutral. Only cancelling moves into it on hit / block/or do it mid combo (So if the combo counter on screen you can do a 1 bar one to continue the combo). I know this would change the same but that ish annoying!
parry is one of the only good defensive moves in the game and it’s still risky asf if baited. the game is already extremely aggressive and snowbally so nerfing that would just make it even worse.
it's too good of a mechanic on defense. you should be rewarded for getting a knockdown or making your opponent block, but your opponent can get perfect parry on your meaty or your pressure and completely reverse the situation. it even blows up safejumps. perfect parry is basically a cheaper, safer ex dp. timing is more strict, but the upside is that you can't get blown up for trying to parry. when you look at it that way, you can see how imbalanced it is.
@@PinoyYoungYou're rewarded with making them guess, like any other knockdown. If your opponent is always guessing a meaty and parrying on wakeup, that tells you should throw them, and if they keep doing it, you can simply throw loop them to death. If you don't change up your approach to pressure or defense, you'll get blasted on any game
@@PinoyYoung fighting games aren’t just about hitting someone once and running the same oki over and over until they die. you still have to read their getup option. it sounds more like you want to just get one knockdown and steamroll people (which already happens a lot in this game even with parry)
I gotta agree with Pinoy there. Parries are just too easy to execute for having almost no downsides. I rather get thrown than be blown up on counter hit or whatever. It was just a mistake to not force people to parry high or low. And if you need defensive actions, just buff drive reversals.
I find the growth of this game so hilarious. At the very beginning of this game “perfect parry is so trash it’s a 2 frame window and your damage is super scaled, you should get a better reward than that” to now “omg wtf l parry is so broken, it has barely any risk to use and the reward is so high, it needs nerf” it’s almost like the devs knew….
9:31 THIS is the change we need! Anyway, I love this discussion and I agree with a lot of these. It's so nice to see something other than "Nerf DR!!!1!".
I think everyone can tell a delayed wake-up would be great but I'd also like to see them put different levels of delay, like 5-10-15f depending on what buttons you use. Oki as it is feels rather braindead in 6 due to how RPS-heavy it is and I think adding more complexity can fix it.
Delete throwloops, getting hit during a drive rush should do a punish counter crumple (like a successful DI), no plus frames on block from drive rush lights and no blocking during parry recovery OR parry only works on special moves since some moves are clearly designed to only have parry as a good answer.
I really don't wanna see a time when Drive Reversal gets buffed... It's great as it is, being a counter to plus on block specials, or to relieve flowchart setups or guaranteed pressure... But it isn't used to just random stray hits, it's just not worth the meter spent.. I don't want to ever get to the point where I need to be worried about it coming out every time I touch an opponent's block with a poke.
@@gavinator70most of the time, not always though. Drive reversal is pretty good against multi hit moves that give plus frames. Lily players hate drive reversal lmao.
@@crocooks5851and the world hate lilly stupid unfair special reaching you full screen and being plus frame. Nobody like using drive reversal but again this shit you have to
Isnt Legend rank already like that. The whole you lose your point over the time you dont play. Well, technically at least. If im remembering correctly Legend rank is sorta inflationary in the way that people in Legend rank continue to play meaning they get more MR points, meaning that as time goes by, the threshold for getting into Legend goes higher. As well as if you aren't playing and youre Legend rank, people will soon pass you up and take your spot.
I don't really think perfect parry is an actual problem, it only feels that way as a symptom of other problems in the game. The strength of parry is that you can use it to corner people, and the corner is obscenely strong right now. So if you nerf some aspects of the corner (like throw loops, or DI checkmate) then parry indirectly becomes weaker. Also the parry does miniscule damage unless you dump all your Drive Meter into SA3, so if you nerf the damage on extended Drive Rush combos and SA3 dage scaling then it nerfs parry indirectly as well. I think one of the things they can do to help alleviate the burnout checkmate issue that Justin brought up is to give throws 2-3 frames of invincibility to DI. That way you can more easily react to counter DI with throw or squeeze a throw through a gap that is currently not possible. I mean throwing someone out of DI is a pretty weak punish considering the alternatives, I think it's safe to allow this as a more reasonable option.
If they make parry have more risk would they also not have to up the reward? As making it risky like 3rd strike but keeping the debuff of starting at 50% scaling seems meh
Isn't perfect parry the answer to DR meaties rather than delayed getup? It's easier to time that 2 frame window when you know exactly when it's going to land. Same with IFD in Strive on wakeup. (And honestly, I'm very much against many of the changes proposed in this video, lol. Parry carries less risk in this game than 3S because it costs a resource, and you lose that resource faster when they call out your parry, for instance.)
yeah, I feel like the changes that players propose to the system never make sense with how the game is actually balanced. also, i haven’t heard ANYBODY suggest making parry more expensive which is strange because I think that’s a pretty simple change that would definitely make it weaker
You are still just wrong on this and I can't believe you come to every top player video trying to argue this terrible point. "Less risk because resource" it costs 1/12 your bar to tap and if you get the perfect parry you are incredibly likely to corner your opponent, on whiff you can just block. It has no real recovery and the only call out like Justin says is grab which you aren't going to be random run up throwing people in neutral because that's WAY riskier than tapping parry.
@@Udderage There was nothing I said there that was wrong. You just disagree with my opinion. Feel free to scroll on by, since we've had this conversation before.
I think they should add a very risky parry to Burnout state that acts like the non-perfect parry even if you time it right but with a set duration (meaning you can’t hold it) and can’t block during the recovery. Also you don’t gain any drive meter until you fully recover. That way block stun into DI and even into some special moves wouldn’t be a checkmate situation anymore.
I disagree with 2 of the popular player suggested fixes to parry 1. Make parry cost more Parry is already the only way to not lose (and possibly gain) drive meter on defense and therefore rewards more active decision making on defense. This would change situations where players are at low drive meter, bordering on burnout, such that the number of ways the defender can survive becomes drastically reduced due to parry’s higher cost burning them out. How it stands currently, parry rewards *active* defense by encouraging players low on drive to make interesting defensive decisions, such as committing to parry to gain back drive but risking getting punish thrown and getting burned out or forgoing parry to avoid grabs, but potentially blocking an attack/getting supered to burnout. Increasing the cost reduces the window where these exciting decision making scenarios takes place, which I believe would be a negative for the game. Increasing cost of perfect parry also would disproportionally increase the power of zoner characters or characters like blanka or Honda with safe forward advancing moves. This is because a failed parry (due to a bait) would drain bar *even faster*, allowing these characters to more easily burnout their opponents trying to approach. This would also apply to moves like dragonlash, heavy flash knuckle, sumo headbutt, sumo slam, gladius, Kim’s dash, and blanka ball, allowing these offensive characters to burnout their opponents even faster as well. Seeing how parry is the only “safe” (still weak to throws and baits) option against these moves, I believe this would skew the balance towards these moves and projectiles enough such that it’s a negative for the game. This isn’t even to mention the fact that this would make throws even more deadly. Throws are balanced by the fact that they are relatively low reward for generally low risk. Currently, throwing a parry already does about 2 bars of drive. Increasing the parry cost would only increase the amount of drive lost on throw, skewing the throw risk-reward negatively in my opinion. This is because this increases the reward of throws whilst keeping the risk the same, potentially causing it to be seen much more in play than other pressure options. I personally do not have issues with throw loops, but those who do have concerns note that this would just make them stronger and therefore more prevalent. 2. High/low parry This basically defeats the purpose of normal parry in sf6. While left/right mixups are still guarded, many dangerous mixups in the game are high/low. This is because left/right mixups can result in side-switches, which is undesirable for an attacker when doing corner pressure, which is the situation where parry is the most useful due to the general oppression of corner pressure. By removing the protection against high/low mixups, normal parry becomes almost useless in corner situations, as it is as effective as a normal block but with added risk. Parry would still give you meter back on success, but presumably failing to guess high/low would punish counter just like getting hit out of parry recover does, drastically reducing the defender’s drive gauge. Furthermore, parries are naturally weaker to delay/throw bait options like shimmy and neutral jump, as a defender who throws out a parry is stuck in the animation on whiff, allowing the offensive player to react and throw them instead, which isn’t a problem for a normal block. This risk of large drive gauge loss for little gain and larger risk than blocking would make the option less considered, which leads to less varied and active defense (not to mention the missed potential of a wasted drive mechanic), which I believe to be a negative for the game. I think parry is pretty well balanced in sf6. I think the problems people have with parry can be reasonably solved with character specific tuning, which doesn’t risk wide sweeping effects like game mechanic changes.
Shine mentioned simply having a lock out on perfect parry so you can't just play a rhythm game to your opponent's offense and fish for a perfect parry, and I think that's fair. It can be a hard call out without being a high/low read, which would only buff characters that have high/low oki/pressure sequences on the same frame. Parry isn't really the issue in this game, only perfect parry, so changing the whole system because the perfect parry is too strong is just too shortsighted with how it's going to affect the rest of the system and the characters.
Make it so you can't throw after perfect parry. Boom no more parry into back throw situation. This solves one of the big issues of perfect parry. Perfect parry already does low damage outside going straight into a CA. The other issue is low risk and ease in neutral. Best bet is to make it so PP can't trigger unless you match levels. So if you want to PP a CR:MK you have to parry low but if you want to parry an overhead or mid you have to parry high. This is basically what they did to shields in Type Lumina where medium and heavy buttons blow through shields and forced blocking if they are not shielded at the right level
I think the problem with low and high parries for SF6 is the system would have to completely be reworked. You'd have to remove some of the recovery on the parry to support said change.
@@skipfuego6339 the change would mean removing the mixup power of a lot of chartacters.......the MAIN point of the parry was to not have to guess mix/cross ups. The tradeoff was that now you cant tech a throw. So many moves have been spaced out to to allow for this purpusefull inteaction like blanka ball. The complaints against parrying make no sense when you literally cant throw tech when u parry, i just drive rush and grab, they literally cant tech and parry at the same time.............the throw loops are the counter to parries......... People are jsut allergic to drive rush throw because it doesnt lead to big damage..
@@httohot what are you talking about? There's throw tech SF6 and second, yes it needs to go back to guessing the cross/mixups with the high attack or low attack, because everyone is just randomly pressing the one or 2 buttons just because someone is faking or bringing an intimidating approach. Plus, it would force people to fight just like the street fighter 3rd strike series(where parrying first started), it would also show if Luke, JP, Dee Jay, can handle those types of rules and change everyone's narrative. All you are doing is not changing that system by letting Luke, JP, Dee Jay, look like they have no flaws at all. SF5 with the v-shift change was all made just to make Luke look perfect for marketing purposes. Ryu got railroad of many other street fighter games, i don't see why Luke can't get the same treatment, he already got high damage, a forward jab that was once Cody's SF4 medium jab to lock you in, he can instantly juggle you to get extra damage like Sf5. So, yes it needs to be changing to make the game challenging. I'm not a shoto player at all I'm going based on what I see by the way.
@@skipfuego6339The thing is we aren't trying to go back to sf3 3rd strike lol. If you want to play third strike then play third strike, a new sf title shouldn't play like a previous title that defeats the point of it being a new game.
Delayed wake would be such a huge addition to the system and I imagine it'd take the least effort on Capcom's part to implement. I do like the idea of high/low parry; however, I also very much doubt Capcom would do it considering how much this game tries to accommodate low-level/new players.
That’s why I won’t play it, your going to make the car slower for new drivers .and they keep trying to sell you on a slower car like it’s a feature. Fuck new players make the game as good as it can be
It has very little to do with accommodating new players. When there's no variable wake up timing corner pressure is harder to deal with because safe jumps are guaranteed, which is the trade-off of them not being guaranteed mid-screen. You just make safe jumps and oki pressure worse, which would massive decrease the power of offense in this game. This makes it harder for new players to deal with, not easier. You also want the variable timing to add interesting defensive decisions, not just add them for the sake of complexity like it's Guilty Gear. If it's just a guess or knowledge check then that's not interesting, if one option always has less risk then it's not interesting, if there's a way to OS it on defense or offense it's not interesting. Also it would take huge effort to implement. This game is designed with very interdependent systems, so if you introduce variable wake up timing you remove a lot of characters' strength who had strength in their oki. If the argument is "it'll add mind games", safe jumps are already a mind game. Empty jump throw, fuzzy overhead, empty jump low, shimmy, are all options you can do. Variable wake up just adds an A/B option to something that already has a ton of defensive decisions.
@@gwen9939 the remark about accommodating new players is in regard to parries and the unlikelihood that Capcom would separate the execution of perfect parry from standard parry-I would never suggest that working through oki-pressure is somehow a beginner-friendly concept lol. That aside, the most compelling argument for delayed wake up is to prevent the game from being an overly repetitive series of flowchart sequences, very much as it is now. It's becoming increasingly common to hear pros complain about how monotonous offense is in SF6. They're not at all suggesting that they don't have defensive options available to them-we can very clearly see that they've figured that part out. But yeah, a lot of folks are bored of playing the same 2-3 minigames with every knock down. Also yes, adding delayed wake implies sweeping balance changes. That's true of adding any new mechanic.
I want more negative buttons or strings in the game. IMO buffing the lower tiers is scary because they have good buttons but the top tiers have better, if you nerf the tops and buff the bottoms, congrats Manons are better and have a +1 MP and a faster cMK. Also some of these buttons are so good because they are cancelable into DI or DR and no recovery. The number of times I MP and can't cancel into anything but my opponent is playing a character that can basically just throw it into cancel is insane, makes it really hard to enjoy cause i like the character i play. That's just my two cents. You shouldn't be able to just throw things or flash Parry and not get punished for it. You can only predict so much.
Yeah a lot of strings from top tiers are DI safe while having variable timing so you can't PP them either. Low tiers having those same options just makes the game less interesting, so I'd much rather that top tiers gets the extreme outliers in their toolkits nerfed slightly than buffing low tiers. Like yeah, fix a few simple things like Manon level 2 and gief lariat not hitting cross up, fix some consistency issues and even the playing field in obvious ways, like let Kimberly keep her can after lvl 1 if she wants to, those sorts of things, but mostly just bring down the top so they can't get away with auto-piloting their offense so easily. The game is very balanced already and I think too many people are tier-brained into thinking that because their character is bottom 5 that means they're bad. Jamie is like 1 or 2 small buffs away from being an absolute horror to fight, and if you buff the 3 grapplers suddenly you have mid-tier characters who's primary gameplan ignores parry, ignores DI, ignores drive reversal, and that would instantly make them high tier.
@@gwen9939 I say Jamie is a bad character but that's mostly because he's playing an honest version of a cheap fight. Damage handicap, terrible install, doesn't become a character until lvl 1, uncancelable MP, negative strings (doesn't get safe till lvl 4) and I can go on. There are small changes to other characters I would like to see some buffs, others are just improvements like 1 thing that urks me is that some characters say there lvl 1 line after it kills and others just do a weird motion with a weird silence, let everyone have their line said. I do think the game is pretty balanced but there are characters that completely over shadow it. A huge thing I wanna see fix or addressed: the input reader is atrocious. I have never been so upset of moves not coming out even though the input and timing was correct or getting a completely different move and losing more than in SF6. I have spent basically full days practicing "cleaning up my inputs" yet it constantly screws me over. Majority of my clips aren't even about me doing cool things, it's replays of me doing the input and my character either staring lovingly into their eyes or doing fireball instead of dp, which on Jamie is basically a death sentence.
I definitely agree with delayed wakeup. When you have a game with dashes along with buffer windows to allow for calculated amounts of lateral movement, it makes it too easy to build frame kills for flowchart routines, and that can make any FG feel a bit less dynamic. The precision is nice, but it helps to give the defender some ability to mix on their own. The perfect parry argument is tougher though. Even Justin basically said the part he doesnt like is that one perfect parry near the corner can turn the tables and lead to corner setplay into death. But is that admittedly somewhat random PP factor the real issue, or is it that the corner is just a bit ridiculous in this game? Corners have always been something you tend to try and avoid, but the low cost of drive rush, paired with burnout stuns being a much worse situation than a typical guard crush, makes the corner in sf6 a bit ridiculous. I agree that parries could use some risk...even a Perfect Parry cooldown that locks out the Perfect aspect when an additional parry is attempted in a short time window. But the offense needs some down tuning along with PP. Nice video!
I agree with everything except for the parry change. This game needs strong defensive options. I’d be down with whiff parry potentially costing more drive gauge, or a slower refill taking hits.
@killahteck402 No. That is not an excuse for throw loops. Parry has 29f of recovery if you don't get hit. You can easily walk up throw for 20% long as you in range of a medium button without having to be in range of a meaty throw. Wake up parry has risk.
@@mc-fine wake up parry will defend high low AND left and right. so everything except throw. so on one hand the worst thing that can happen is you get an extra dmg throw and on the other you could lose potentially +50% off a combo. so the risk is in your favor.
Obviously Capcom is trying to make game easier to players and pro gamers are suggesting them to make it harder and complex like old SF Lmao. I agree with the rank sys should be shuffled, but the parry and delay wake up? That means players would add a ton of knowledge or reaction skill to learn their characters and as a casual player I dont have that much time to learn all these techs. I enjoy the game right now even though I got my ass kicked by those high tier characters. I think they should fix the DR to be reactable and balance cycle should be shorten to at least 6 months once.
%100. The fact this game is 6months+ old and hasn't really had a patch is criminal to me. The game is boring and dead, and capcom devs live in an echo chamber. They have some weird meta among their testers, and none of it translates into the common player experience. Capcom needs to be more brave, more experimental, and really take in feedback and data.
I like the idea of burnout letting you do perfect parry only, so it’s a big risk to hit it to save yourself from DI dizzy. That would be hype to see someone land it
parry should always be available, 'perfect' or normal, just make it cost red/grey life or reduce your Drive Gauge or supermeter or smth; dont disable it completely. drive impact into free corner stun is too good
What i'd suggest is nerf perfecg parry by making it so you need to tap it at the right time to get it. There are situations were you can hold it on get up and if the attack is a meaty the perfect parry will be guaranteed to come out. That is ridiculous and completely misses the purpose.
"Once you hit the rank that's the highest, it's hard to find people within your rank" Let me play you a sad song on the world smallest violin for your top player problem that doesn't apply to 99.9% of players.
I want Akuma with 3000 health, and 8000 damage on bread and butter combos. Also, no burnout for Akuma. When he runs out of meter it goes back to full Like I want the round over in 10 seconds, either way, let's go!
I will say no to the parry that SF third strike use,you know why? because I SUCK at those,pretty hard to predict what is going to be the next hit from your opponent and press for example forward to do it in a specific milimetric part? F no,why not use parry but if you hold it for so long it starts draining your special bar or even small health?,no one will use it for a long time knowing that could happen. Talking about dlc´s,bring back fight to get the characters as a reward from the fighst like SF5,costumes are hell of expensive so F that i prefer characters over costumes but there are some people that like costumes,but again,they are very expensive. Music is also the things they should be adding to the game,they will come eventually with stages and characters but we want it now!! haha.
Parry is perfect as is. The timing is very specific and easily baited. I see the meta evolving to where people are delaying certain combos intentionally
Directional parries will not work in this game, JP's SA2, Blanka's doll mixups, Juri's Install, would be a nightmare to deal with. Melt Drive guage if you block, or do some miraculous high/low parrying? No thanks 👎. Directional Perfect Parries, as others have mentioned, is way more reasonable, while keeping general parry as a solution to ambiguous mixups/crossups/pressure strings.
Changing perfect parry to being a directional input like 3rd Strike would be the best way to add intentionality. This would also add both down Parries as well as Air parries.
@@Jonkin715 Being able to air parry so to jump more freely since it get risky to anti air in a SF seems so wrong to me who like control caractere 😅 I swear the day my aa DP get parried i quit the game
with air parries, this'll change the anti air game. so universally the defender has to choose between: blocking (less risky, but you can lose drive), anti-air(take damage AND lose out on meter, esp if you OD DP), air to air(they can parry anyways), parry on the ground (at best get a scaled 50% reward or go into burnout and die at worst), parry in the air if you're at like half a pip of drive you're playing russian roulette and the odds only get worse the longer a round goes which is even more snowbally tbh
@@xfornicateur there is a rather simple way of countering this... Give every character an air throw. This way, there could be a rock/paper/scissors thing where parries beat attacks, throws beats parries, and attacks beat throws.
Not feeling delayed wake up in this. Who the hell wanna guess whether they're wasting their meter to drive rush on oki or not? Set play is okay sometimes guys. Agreed with rest though.
Right! That should be a training thing. Like finally make an indicator like every other fighter, where it tells you what each attack is, high low mid and overhead.
I think for the Rank System, it's fine as is but for Legend specifically I feel they should have a separate Ranked mode for the Legend Ranks only and maybe have a different motivator in that mode, akin to Elite Smash basically
This would make the issue even worse. The problem they mentioned was that there already aren't enough players in Legend, especially with region-based matchmaking. Totally separating them from other Masters would make you even MORE likely to fight the same few people over and over. In Ranked matches with a large point disparity, figuring out how to make the higher and lower MR player both _want_ to rematch is the ultimate goal.
They need to make parry a directional input, remove the button-command style and make it tap forward to parry high and down to parry low. Holding buttons to parry is too easy and mashing it i what it has become. I would love to see directional input for parry and even red parry out of block to make drive-rush pressure a risk.
Quit trying to make the game SF3. That parry system had its own problems and would only further highlight issues in this game, specifically characters like JP who ALREADY have a strong high low mixup potential. Doing SF3 stunts like that would make JP almost impossible to deal with unless you snuff him up close, oh wait that cant work either because he STILL has great tools up close.
@@themrfelipe6005the problem is when you use both heavies in timing with the opponent's strike, and the attack whiffs unexpectedly, you will perform an unwanted DI instead which can be punished hard.
I think the parry system could be fixed by making inputs for perfect parry distinct from regular parry. For instance, you could have high/low guessing exist only for perfect parry in which you'd have to explicitly press 6+mp+mk/2+mp+mk (respectively). Those would be strict in that you'd get wrecked if you miss, while regular parry would remain the same.
Funny with all the comments about perfect parry, I said it would be an issue long before the game was released and people were giving me shit for it hahah!!
If you think pros opinions about parry system and how it works even effects the casuals that may potentially leave then u are pretty dense. The point is to widen the gap of skill. The casual will still be able to do everything they used to but now have to get skilled to compete with pro players. Who would've thunk it? Who would've thunk that if you want to compete with people that dedicate their lives to something that you have to put time and effort too.
@@Edz519 Taking away parry's ability to negate high low mixups would definitely effect low level players. The rest of what you said is just a strawman argument.
I dont want high and low parries, i just think that they should separate regular parry and perfect parry. So what they should do is keep the hold parry but for PP make the input (back+parry), which is the only way to get PP. While also giving it a increased whiff recovery animation. Coupled with adding option for delay wakeup would be interesting as well
My personal wishlist is As Justin said, a delayed wake up option Remove throw loops that don't require drive rush Either give everyone the ability to bait reversals by blocking while drive rush or completely remove it. Might be controversial but, don't do anything to regular parry while making a separate input for PP like forward+parry which costs 2 bars, no meter refunded, cannot be held but easy to use and punish. Something very similar to Vshifts but more unsafe. Buff AAs that don't hit cross ups to do so. Nerf lvl3 damage Make lvl 1 & 2 cancelable on every cancelable hit. Reduce drive meter gain to reduce drive rush spam. A faster and safe on block drive reversal. Fix the inputs while someone is using drive rush. So many times my special inputs gets ignored because of a lucky random drive rush, which in most cases, whiff punishes the attack button I did after the motion inputs
I want Juri's crouching MP hitbox changed so it doesn't hit targets a foot away from her hand, and Marisa's Quadriga hurtbox changed so it's actually off the ground when she is.
I've been saying since the beta release that this "parry" shouldn't exist. This thing is not a parry, it is just a special kind of blocking. You use this just to prevent your drive gauge to decrease. That's its only purpose. Only "perfect parries " are really parries, so those are the ones that should exist in the game. Moreover, these perfect parries should be performed pressing forward and the parry buttons, and low forward for the low blows. Maybe not with that little frame window, but yeah. But this is just a little issue compared to the bad input readings that the game has. This game and the two before this are so bad programmed that they have the input readings so loose that you make more unwanted moves than in any other previous Capcom fighting game. Not only unwanted specials, even unwanted jumps and such. It is just terrible, I don't understand how Capcom, that is the one who invented this kind of games can make these horrible controls now. Older games like Alpha series or EX series have shortcuts too, but those games have a real good controls, not like the new ones. Before these latest games cheatboxes didn't exist, and anyone would have thought that such thing would have been necessary anyways. These games have forced the invention of these kind of things, before them these gadgets weren't even necessary at all. Just unthinkable.
Maybe in burnout give us the high low parry system. This will give people in burnout a chance but also they have to actually make the right choice. Will leave them extremely vulnerable.
If parry get high/low change, then OD parry need to be added as well. High/low parry should spend even less drive bar than current parry cost, while OD parry spend more but able to intercept both high/low. Also when drive rush is executed from OD parry, the drive rush should have a new property. Maybe better damage scaling for OD parry into drive rush?
I feel like Justin's parry rework requires his delayed wakeup suggestion. Parry is a great way to punish players who drive rush into a meaty attempt after a knockdown. If the player attempting that parry now has to guess high or low, it gives too much power to the player on offense who stole Oki using the drive rush. So yeah, I would mind it, but only if we get delayed wakeup too.
They should put perfect parry on different button, or by just tapping the parry button, so that if you miss it (too early), it doesn't go automatically into normal parry and becomes much more risky. Also perfect parry shouldn't use up resource so that it can be used during burnout, as a last ditch come back tool.
Big nope on delayed wake up option when parry is already a thing, that's even without perfect parry in mind, the one on the offensive shouldn't be guessing that much including dealing with wakeup reversals, drive reversal possibly even being buffed on top of all that. Plus this heavily screws grapplers.
I heard someone suggest perfect parry should only work if the directional inputs are in a neutral or non-block direction so that if you go for it you can't hold block as a fail safe. You can still parry while holding a block direction but it will never perfect parry if you do.
That doesn’t make sense. You can hold parry without a direction now and it will work ?
@@wata1991 You can hold parry without a direction now and it will work just fine, it's just that most people hold down/back or back so if they miss the perfect parry timing they still block. The point is not to take that away but rather disallow perfect parry if you're holding block. So if you're holding back and tap parry, you will parry, but you will not perfect parry even if you hit the 2F window. This also means that if you go for perfect parry and are 1F too late you get hit because you're not blocking.
@@WoWisdeadtome it doesnt matter if you miss perfect parry, if you are holding parry you will block regardless of holding back / down back…
@@wata1991I don't think you understand the problem people have with perfect parry. The issue is that if I'm on the defensive and I'm holding down back and I think I've got a read on my opponent's pressure then I can just tap parry while holding block to fish for a PP and if my timing is wrong what happens?
Too early: I get a regular parry and go back to blocking so I gain a small amount of meter and still have to hold the pressure OR the parry may not even come out if I'm still in block stun from the previous move.
Too late: I'm already blocking so the parry doesn't come out due to being in block stun.
So the risk of making that attempt is very low.
But the reward if I hit that PP is very high. Depending on what I parried I might get just about any punish I want: I can side switch, maybe put my opponent into the corner, I might even be able to win the game if my opponent is low and I have level 3 (still maxes the scaling at 50%). So we have a very low risk option with a very rewarding payoff if successful. Now if I have to release block to try for a PP what happens?
Too early: Same as before but now blocking might be trickier because I had to release it and go back to it. The risk of eating a PC combo is higher.
Too late: I get opened up because I'm not blocking, opponent gets a full combo.
The risk I take to go for PP is much higher if I can't hold block as a fail safe. If you want to try and solve the problem of having to block correctly by tapping and holding parry when under pressure you're certainly welcome to try. There's a reason no one really minds the normal parry, it's because it has universal counter play options and it is no better to parry attacks than to block them in terms of frame (dis)advantage apart from meter gain.
Not if you're late. If you're late, you haven't even inputted parry yet, therefore you won't get a parry. The point is that right now, you can hold back while trying to parry, so trying for PP is really safe. However, if there's a real punish to being late now, where you can't get a block and actually get hit, people will try PPing way less. @@wata1991
I think if they got rid of the screen freeze when a perfect parry is executed off a normal then it would take more skill to actually capitalize from it, requiring you to have quicker reactions and be more aware, making it less of a brain dead option
With burnout and parry, they go hand in hand. If you make being in burnout easier, and parry harder to do, then you're very potentially trading issues. You can mash parry, it uses drive meter, you can throw them and they take punish counter damage, and meter damage... i think if your opponent is just mashing drive parry, you should tailor your gameplan around that to get them in burnout, to get them into those checkmate scenarios.
Im not a pro (I'm in Master with 2 characters, but I'm still nowhere near that level, but I kind of found those systems really satisfying. They're easy to understand, hard to execute, and when it happens you immediately understand why that works, unlike other games like Granblue for instance, where some of the underlying systems are needlessly obtuse, or are inconsistent. SF6 feels fairly consistent
Interested to know, what mechanics are inconsistent in Granblue? Obtuse is subjective, but I am interested to see what is inconsistent.
@@blastimbreI would be interested to know too. I play both granblue rising and sf6. I like granblue for the anime theme, but the gameplay itself feels great too.i also did play the previous game, rising made certain normals more minus as they added dash attacks as a pressure tool. Rage strike is quite obviously inspired by DI I feel. both rage strike, chain and reversal were great additions/replacements for tactical move. Ultimate skills also changes how you use the super meter for the better I feel. There is alot more resource management now and I like that.
Nerf the normal parry? Make it low and high separately? What about Dalshim and Aki that are practically hellpless in the corner against mad pressure against ken, Luke, cammy, dee jay ?
Just don't pick weak characters lol
I am still waiting on simple things like color edit which was in cvs2. Say they want ppl to pay for new costumes but then should be able to change the colors on that costume. The world tour let's you do stuff but I mainly want to play ranked online matches.
replay takeover, 6 character year, and a few character changes would be nice too
Drive rush in neutral should be 2 bars. Those plus frame situations you get out of those are crazy and the whole cast doesn’t have great buttons to check them.
What do you do about jp lvl2 if there hi and low parry you just get unblockabled every time he gets lvl2
I like the delayed wake-up idea. It'll definitely blow up a lot of characters' safe jump options though, so it's tough to say how drastically it would shift the game's balance.
At the same time, it'd also probably make new safejumps possible with framekills. It could add a little bit of a mind game to wake up recovery game. Also if they add stuff like maybe after getting hit by a super, you can't quick recover. Or if you get knocked down by a punish counter, you can't quick recover(similar to getting hit by a crush counter sweep in sfv). Obviously it'd take a lot of thought to properly implement those things but yeah
yea, maybe make it so you can only delay rise on wake up in place and not delay rise on back rise - that way if your opponent reads your delayed rise, they're closer to you with more frame advantage, which could prevent delayed rise becoming too strong??
Speaking as a Chun main who loves his safe jump setups, do safe jumps NEED to be such a prominent part of the game? Not sure about that one.
I mean it worked in sf4. I don’t know why they keep going back to the drawing board every new game
@@Spookyjordandepends on how long the delay get up frames are. In SF4 it's over 20 frames. It kills vortex but at the same time opponent is still safe if their vortex or meaty whiffs. In SF5 quick rise and back roll is only 5 frames different. So if some one tries to meaty you with a medium or heavy normal or even a special move, if you guess right with your wake up timing and opponent whiffs you can actually punish them for being too minus on whiff. That made SF5 very scrubby and random since randomising your wake up timing and spamming jab on wakeup becomes a legit strat.
If SF6 would to introduce delay wake up, the timing should be at least over 20f. However it can still fk up some meaty options like drive impact which has 26 recovery frames.
Delay wake up was introduced late in SF4 to counter vortex, they then use back roll in SF5 as another method to mess up vortex but fk up with the timing which made the game scrubby. SF6 got it right. However the problem lies in things like throw loops and drive rush meaty.
What should be changed imo is removing all throw loops and make drive rush on block be +2 instead of +4. Or even make drive rushing a blocking opponent not lose any drive meter. Or even make interrupting a drive rush attempt trigger punish counter state, interrupting with a heavy normal triggers crumble state. Reducing and limiting drive rush advantage will discourage people from spamming it mindlessly. Messing with wakeup delay might create even more problems down the road.
hear me out. You can't Drive Rush in neutral. Only cancelling moves into it on hit / block/or do it mid combo (So if the combo counter on screen you can do a 1 bar one to continue the combo). I know this would change the same but that ish annoying!
parry is one of the only good defensive moves in the game and it’s still risky asf if baited. the game is already extremely aggressive and snowbally so nerfing that would just make it even worse.
it's too good of a mechanic on defense. you should be rewarded for getting a knockdown or making your opponent block, but your opponent can get perfect parry on your meaty or your pressure and completely reverse the situation. it even blows up safejumps.
perfect parry is basically a cheaper, safer ex dp. timing is more strict, but the upside is that you can't get blown up for trying to parry. when you look at it that way, you can see how imbalanced it is.
@@PinoyYoungYou're rewarded with making them guess, like any other knockdown. If your opponent is always guessing a meaty and parrying on wakeup, that tells you should throw them, and if they keep doing it, you can simply throw loop them to death.
If you don't change up your approach to pressure or defense, you'll get blasted on any game
@@PinoyYoung fighting games aren’t just about hitting someone once and running the same oki over and over until they die. you still have to read their getup option. it sounds more like you want to just get one knockdown and steamroll people (which already happens a lot in this game even with parry)
@@nicorobin7762you’re a noob dude. Parry is good how it is cause it has a clear counter.
I gotta agree with Pinoy there. Parries are just too easy to execute for having almost no downsides. I rather get thrown than be blown up on counter hit or whatever. It was just a mistake to not force people to parry high or low. And if you need defensive actions, just buff drive reversals.
I find the growth of this game so hilarious. At the very beginning of this game “perfect parry is so trash it’s a 2 frame window and your damage is super scaled, you should get a better reward than that” to now “omg wtf l parry is so broken, it has barely any risk to use and the reward is so high, it needs nerf” it’s almost like the devs knew….
so strange, pros were beta testing this game publicly for a year and a half and didn't notice the potential of parry.
I think some pros like daigo were afraid that if parry becomes to strong then the game will be become boring because defense is too good.
9:31 THIS is the change we need!
Anyway, I love this discussion and I agree with a lot of these. It's so nice to see something other than "Nerf DR!!!1!".
I think everyone can tell a delayed wake-up would be great but I'd also like to see them put different levels of delay, like 5-10-15f depending on what buttons you use. Oki as it is feels rather braindead in 6 due to how RPS-heavy it is and I think adding more complexity can fix it.
4:50 so if I get one PP, I can snowball the whole round... but they could PP me right back... ?
wut
Delete throwloops, getting hit during a drive rush should do a punish counter crumple (like a successful DI), no plus frames on block from drive rush lights and no blocking during parry recovery OR parry only works on special moves since some moves are clearly designed to only have parry as a good answer.
I really don't wanna see a time when Drive Reversal gets buffed... It's great as it is, being a counter to plus on block specials, or to relieve flowchart setups or guaranteed pressure... But it isn't used to just random stray hits, it's just not worth the meter spent..
I don't want to ever get to the point where I need to be worried about it coming out every time I touch an opponent's block with a poke.
If they don't buff drive reversal than they need to change drive impact to cost more meter.
any time drive reversal can be used, its almost always better to just reversal instead
@@gavinator70most of the time, not always though. Drive reversal is pretty good against multi hit moves that give plus frames. Lily players hate drive reversal lmao.
@@crocooks5851and the world hate lilly stupid unfair special reaching you full screen and being plus frame. Nobody like using drive reversal but again this shit you have to
Can they also fix the match making?
What if PP worked like alpha counters and it takes a bit of meter from your super gauge to perform. This could also be a bad idea 🤷🏾
Isnt Legend rank already like that. The whole you lose your point over the time you dont play. Well, technically at least. If im remembering correctly Legend rank is sorta inflationary in the way that people in Legend rank continue to play meaning they get more MR points, meaning that as time goes by, the threshold for getting into Legend goes higher. As well as if you aren't playing and youre Legend rank, people will soon pass you up and take your spot.
I don't really think perfect parry is an actual problem, it only feels that way as a symptom of other problems in the game. The strength of parry is that you can use it to corner people, and the corner is obscenely strong right now. So if you nerf some aspects of the corner (like throw loops, or DI checkmate) then parry indirectly becomes weaker. Also the parry does miniscule damage unless you dump all your Drive Meter into SA3, so if you nerf the damage on extended Drive Rush combos and SA3 dage scaling then it nerfs parry indirectly as well.
I think one of the things they can do to help alleviate the burnout checkmate issue that Justin brought up is to give throws 2-3 frames of invincibility to DI. That way you can more easily react to counter DI with throw or squeeze a throw through a gap that is currently not possible. I mean throwing someone out of DI is a pretty weak punish considering the alternatives, I think it's safe to allow this as a more reasonable option.
throw loops are necessary with how parry works.
@@thejunkmanlives No, this has been answered a million times.
I think marisa can do like 20% at least off of pp with ca
Yea my biggest gripe with the game is the corner oppression and corner carry of some characters
Wong doesn't like parries. What a shock.
If they make parry have more risk would they also not have to up the reward? As making it risky like 3rd strike but keeping the debuff of starting at 50% scaling seems meh
The reward is already amazing, you take your turn back and do damage…
I’d love to see EX moves to use up super meter instead of drive meter.
Isn't perfect parry the answer to DR meaties rather than delayed getup? It's easier to time that 2 frame window when you know exactly when it's going to land. Same with IFD in Strive on wakeup.
(And honestly, I'm very much against many of the changes proposed in this video, lol. Parry carries less risk in this game than 3S because it costs a resource, and you lose that resource faster when they call out your parry, for instance.)
no one wants to have to parry on wakeuo
yeah, I feel like the changes that players propose to the system never make sense with how the game is actually balanced.
also, i haven’t heard ANYBODY suggest making parry more expensive which is strange because I think that’s a pretty simple change that would definitely make it weaker
@@ZachStarAttack lol, well, I don't want to have to cover two different wakeup timings.
You are still just wrong on this and I can't believe you come to every top player video trying to argue this terrible point. "Less risk because resource" it costs 1/12 your bar to tap and if you get the perfect parry you are incredibly likely to corner your opponent, on whiff you can just block. It has no real recovery and the only call out like Justin says is grab which you aren't going to be random run up throwing people in neutral because that's WAY riskier than tapping parry.
@@Udderage There was nothing I said there that was wrong. You just disagree with my opinion. Feel free to scroll on by, since we've had this conversation before.
I think they should add a very risky parry to Burnout state that acts like the non-perfect parry even if you time it right but with a set duration (meaning you can’t hold it) and can’t block during the recovery. Also you don’t gain any drive meter until you fully recover.
That way block stun into DI and even into some special moves wouldn’t be a checkmate situation anymore.
No one wants to get rid of throw loops?
I disagree with 2 of the popular player suggested fixes to parry
1. Make parry cost more
Parry is already the only way to not lose (and possibly gain) drive meter on defense and therefore rewards more active decision making on defense. This would change situations where players are at low drive meter, bordering on burnout, such that the number of ways the defender can survive becomes drastically reduced due to parry’s higher cost burning them out. How it stands currently, parry rewards *active* defense by encouraging players low on drive to make interesting defensive decisions, such as committing to parry to gain back drive but risking getting punish thrown and getting burned out or forgoing parry to avoid grabs, but potentially blocking an attack/getting supered to burnout. Increasing the cost reduces the window where these exciting decision making scenarios takes place, which I believe would be a negative for the game.
Increasing cost of perfect parry also would disproportionally increase the power of zoner characters or characters like blanka or Honda with safe forward advancing moves. This is because a failed parry (due to a bait) would drain bar *even faster*, allowing these characters to more easily burnout their opponents trying to approach. This would also apply to moves like dragonlash, heavy flash knuckle, sumo headbutt, sumo slam, gladius, Kim’s dash, and blanka ball, allowing these offensive characters to burnout their opponents even faster as well. Seeing how parry is the only “safe” (still weak to throws and baits) option against these moves, I believe this would skew the balance towards these moves and projectiles enough such that it’s a negative for the game.
This isn’t even to mention the fact that this would make throws even more deadly. Throws are balanced by the fact that they are relatively low reward for generally low risk. Currently, throwing a parry already does about 2 bars of drive. Increasing the parry cost would only increase the amount of drive lost on throw, skewing the throw risk-reward negatively in my opinion. This is because this increases the reward of throws whilst keeping the risk the same, potentially causing it to be seen much more in play than other pressure options. I personally do not have issues with throw loops, but those who do have concerns note that this would just make them stronger and therefore more prevalent.
2. High/low parry
This basically defeats the purpose of normal parry in sf6. While left/right mixups are still guarded, many dangerous mixups in the game are high/low. This is because left/right mixups can result in side-switches, which is undesirable for an attacker when doing corner pressure, which is the situation where parry is the most useful due to the general oppression of corner pressure. By removing the protection against high/low mixups, normal parry becomes almost useless in corner situations, as it is as effective as a normal block but with added risk. Parry would still give you meter back on success, but presumably failing to guess high/low would punish counter just like getting hit out of parry recover does, drastically reducing the defender’s drive gauge. Furthermore, parries are naturally weaker to delay/throw bait options like shimmy and neutral jump, as a defender who throws out a parry is stuck in the animation on whiff, allowing the offensive player to react and throw them instead, which isn’t a problem for a normal block. This risk of large drive gauge loss for little gain and larger risk than blocking would make the option less considered, which leads to less varied and active defense (not to mention the missed potential of a wasted drive mechanic), which I believe to be a negative for the game.
I think parry is pretty well balanced in sf6. I think the problems people have with parry can be reasonably solved with character specific tuning, which doesn’t risk wide sweeping effects like game mechanic changes.
Shine mentioned simply having a lock out on perfect parry so you can't just play a rhythm game to your opponent's offense and fish for a perfect parry, and I think that's fair. It can be a hard call out without being a high/low read, which would only buff characters that have high/low oki/pressure sequences on the same frame. Parry isn't really the issue in this game, only perfect parry, so changing the whole system because the perfect parry is too strong is just too shortsighted with how it's going to affect the rest of the system and the characters.
Make it so you can't throw after perfect parry. Boom no more parry into back throw situation. This solves one of the big issues of perfect parry. Perfect parry already does low damage outside going straight into a CA.
The other issue is low risk and ease in neutral. Best bet is to make it so PP can't trigger unless you match levels. So if you want to PP a CR:MK you have to parry low but if you want to parry an overhead or mid you have to parry high. This is basically what they did to shields in Type Lumina where medium and heavy buttons blow through shields and forced blocking if they are not shielded at the right level
I think the problem with low and high parries for SF6 is the system would have to completely be reworked. You'd have to remove some of the recovery on the parry to support said change.
Well, let it change
@@skipfuego6339 the change would mean removing the mixup power of a lot of chartacters.......the MAIN point of the parry was to not have to guess mix/cross ups. The tradeoff was that now you cant tech a throw. So many moves have been spaced out to to allow for this purpusefull inteaction like blanka ball.
The complaints against parrying make no sense when you literally cant throw tech when u parry, i just drive rush and grab, they literally cant tech and parry at the same time.............the throw loops are the counter to parries......... People are jsut allergic to drive rush throw because it doesnt lead to big damage..
@@httohot what are you talking about? There's throw tech SF6 and second, yes it needs to go back to guessing the cross/mixups with the high attack or low attack, because everyone is just randomly pressing the one or 2 buttons just because someone is faking or bringing an intimidating approach. Plus, it would force people to fight just like the street fighter 3rd strike series(where parrying first started), it would also show if Luke, JP, Dee Jay, can handle those types of rules and change everyone's narrative. All you are doing is not changing that system by letting Luke, JP, Dee Jay, look like they have no flaws at all. SF5 with the v-shift change was all made just to make Luke look perfect for marketing purposes. Ryu got railroad of many other street fighter games, i don't see why Luke can't get the same treatment, he already got high damage, a forward jab that was once Cody's SF4 medium jab to lock you in, he can instantly juggle you to get extra damage like Sf5. So, yes it needs to be changing to make the game challenging. I'm not a shoto player at all I'm going based on what I see by the way.
@@skipfuego6339The thing is we aren't trying to go back to sf3 3rd strike lol. If you want to play third strike then play third strike, a new sf title shouldn't play like a previous title that defeats the point of it being a new game.
Delayed wake would be such a huge addition to the system and I imagine it'd take the least effort on Capcom's part to implement. I do like the idea of high/low parry; however, I also very much doubt Capcom would do it considering how much this game tries to accommodate low-level/new players.
That’s why I won’t play it, your going to make the car slower for new drivers .and they keep trying to sell you on a slower car like it’s a feature. Fuck new players make the game as good as it can be
It has very little to do with accommodating new players. When there's no variable wake up timing corner pressure is harder to deal with because safe jumps are guaranteed, which is the trade-off of them not being guaranteed mid-screen. You just make safe jumps and oki pressure worse, which would massive decrease the power of offense in this game. This makes it harder for new players to deal with, not easier. You also want the variable timing to add interesting defensive decisions, not just add them for the sake of complexity like it's Guilty Gear. If it's just a guess or knowledge check then that's not interesting, if one option always has less risk then it's not interesting, if there's a way to OS it on defense or offense it's not interesting.
Also it would take huge effort to implement. This game is designed with very interdependent systems, so if you introduce variable wake up timing you remove a lot of characters' strength who had strength in their oki. If the argument is "it'll add mind games", safe jumps are already a mind game. Empty jump throw, fuzzy overhead, empty jump low, shimmy, are all options you can do. Variable wake up just adds an A/B option to something that already has a ton of defensive decisions.
@@gwen9939 the remark about accommodating new players is in regard to parries and the unlikelihood that Capcom would separate the execution of perfect parry from standard parry-I would never suggest that working through oki-pressure is somehow a beginner-friendly concept lol.
That aside, the most compelling argument for delayed wake up is to prevent the game from being an overly repetitive series of flowchart sequences, very much as it is now. It's becoming increasingly common to hear pros complain about how monotonous offense is in SF6. They're not at all suggesting that they don't have defensive options available to them-we can very clearly see that they've figured that part out. But yeah, a lot of folks are bored of playing the same 2-3 minigames with every knock down.
Also yes, adding delayed wake implies sweeping balance changes. That's true of adding any new mechanic.
I want more negative buttons or strings in the game. IMO buffing the lower tiers is scary because they have good buttons but the top tiers have better, if you nerf the tops and buff the bottoms, congrats Manons are better and have a +1 MP and a faster cMK.
Also some of these buttons are so good because they are cancelable into DI or DR and no recovery. The number of times I MP and can't cancel into anything but my opponent is playing a character that can basically just throw it into cancel is insane, makes it really hard to enjoy cause i like the character i play.
That's just my two cents. You shouldn't be able to just throw things or flash Parry and not get punished for it. You can only predict so much.
Yeah a lot of strings from top tiers are DI safe while having variable timing so you can't PP them either. Low tiers having those same options just makes the game less interesting, so I'd much rather that top tiers gets the extreme outliers in their toolkits nerfed slightly than buffing low tiers. Like yeah, fix a few simple things like Manon level 2 and gief lariat not hitting cross up, fix some consistency issues and even the playing field in obvious ways, like let Kimberly keep her can after lvl 1 if she wants to, those sorts of things, but mostly just bring down the top so they can't get away with auto-piloting their offense so easily.
The game is very balanced already and I think too many people are tier-brained into thinking that because their character is bottom 5 that means they're bad. Jamie is like 1 or 2 small buffs away from being an absolute horror to fight, and if you buff the 3 grapplers suddenly you have mid-tier characters who's primary gameplan ignores parry, ignores DI, ignores drive reversal, and that would instantly make them high tier.
@@gwen9939 I say Jamie is a bad character but that's mostly because he's playing an honest version of a cheap fight. Damage handicap, terrible install, doesn't become a character until lvl 1, uncancelable MP, negative strings (doesn't get safe till lvl 4) and I can go on. There are small changes to other characters I would like to see some buffs, others are just improvements like 1 thing that urks me is that some characters say there lvl 1 line after it kills and others just do a weird motion with a weird silence, let everyone have their line said. I do think the game is pretty balanced but there are characters that completely over shadow it.
A huge thing I wanna see fix or addressed: the input reader is atrocious. I have never been so upset of moves not coming out even though the input and timing was correct or getting a completely different move and losing more than in SF6. I have spent basically full days practicing "cleaning up my inputs" yet it constantly screws me over. Majority of my clips aren't even about me doing cool things, it's replays of me doing the input and my character either staring lovingly into their eyes or doing fireball instead of dp, which on Jamie is basically a death sentence.
@darkheat9946 staring lovingly into their eyes lol, then again i cant blame em, the sexual tension is real with jamie
I definitely agree with delayed wakeup. When you have a game with dashes along with buffer windows to allow for calculated amounts of lateral movement, it makes it too easy to build frame kills for flowchart routines, and that can make any FG feel a bit less dynamic. The precision is nice, but it helps to give the defender some ability to mix on their own.
The perfect parry argument is tougher though. Even Justin basically said the part he doesnt like is that one perfect parry near the corner can turn the tables and lead to corner setplay into death. But is that admittedly somewhat random PP factor the real issue, or is it that the corner is just a bit ridiculous in this game? Corners have always been something you tend to try and avoid, but the low cost of drive rush, paired with burnout stuns being a much worse situation than a typical guard crush, makes the corner in sf6 a bit ridiculous. I agree that parries could use some risk...even a Perfect Parry cooldown that locks out the Perfect aspect when an additional parry is attempted in a short time window. But the offense needs some down tuning along with PP. Nice video!
I agree with everything except for the parry change. This game needs strong defensive options. I’d be down with whiff parry potentially costing more drive gauge, or a slower refill taking hits.
I agree that HP into DI should put you in a lock state, especially due to how easy it is to burnout in this game.
Holy shit Kizzys suggestion about drive reversal is insane. You get gauge if you successfully hit with it? horrible idea.
Mashing parry on wake up is risk free?!
This is why throw loops exist
He said the reward out does the risk in most situations
@@SkarjOSit really doesn’t. losing that much drive meter can lose you rounds easily
@killahteck402 No. That is not an excuse for throw loops. Parry has 29f of recovery if you don't get hit. You can easily walk up throw for 20% long as you in range of a medium button without having to be in range of a meaty throw. Wake up parry has risk.
@@mc-fine wake up parry will defend high low AND left and right. so everything except throw. so on one hand the worst thing that can happen is you get an extra dmg throw and on the other you could lose potentially +50% off a combo. so the risk is in your favor.
everything jwong said I've been wanting the same, the delayed wake up would be nice. no more forced meaty setups flowchart.
Obviously Capcom is trying to make game easier to players and pro gamers are suggesting them to make it harder and complex like old SF Lmao. I agree with the rank sys should be shuffled, but the parry and delay wake up? That means players would add a ton of knowledge or reaction skill to learn their characters and as a casual player I dont have that much time to learn all these techs. I enjoy the game right now even though I got my ass kicked by those high tier characters. I think they should fix the DR to be reactable and balance cycle should be shorten to at least 6 months once.
%100. The fact this game is 6months+ old and hasn't really had a patch is criminal to me. The game is boring and dead, and capcom devs live in an echo chamber. They have some weird meta among their testers, and none of it translates into the common player experience. Capcom needs to be more brave, more experimental, and really take in feedback and data.
I like the idea of burnout letting you do perfect parry only, so it’s a big risk to hit it to save yourself from DI dizzy. That would be hype to see someone land it
parry should always be available, 'perfect' or normal, just make it cost red/grey life or reduce your Drive Gauge or supermeter or smth; dont disable it completely.
drive impact into free corner stun is too good
@@FractalPrism. Think about how seriously big a deal Burnout is.
Think about how insanely less significant it would be if you could parry during it.
@@FractalPrism. Horrible idea. That would make the risk of burnout negligible.
What i'd suggest is nerf perfecg parry by making it so you need to tap it at the right time to get it. There are situations were you can hold it on get up and if the attack is a meaty the perfect parry will be guaranteed to come out. That is ridiculous and completely misses the purpose.
"Once you hit the rank that's the highest, it's hard to find people within your rank"
Let me play you a sad song on the world smallest violin for your top player problem that doesn't apply to 99.9% of players.
Lol
Lol, I'm not anywhere near Pro level either, but I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that it's not important for top players to enjoy the game too
Yeah, if you get that good, go touch grass for a while and become worse then resume playing.
Bro really complaining about legend rank, the 0.00001% 😂
Bro that thumbnail is WILD
I want Akuma with 3000 health, and 8000 damage on bread and butter combos. Also, no burnout for Akuma. When he runs out of meter it goes back to full
Like I want the round over in 10 seconds, either way, let's go!
I will say no to the parry that SF third strike use,you know why? because I SUCK at those,pretty hard to predict what is going to be the next hit from your opponent and press for example forward to do it in a specific milimetric part? F no,why not use parry but if you hold it for so long it starts draining your special bar or even small health?,no one will use it for a long time knowing that could happen. Talking about dlc´s,bring back fight to get the characters as a reward from the fighst like SF5,costumes are hell of expensive so F that i prefer characters over costumes but there are some people that like costumes,but again,they are very expensive. Music is also the things they should be adding to the game,they will come eventually with stages and characters but we want it now!! haha.
Parry is perfect as is. The timing is very specific and easily baited. I see the meta evolving to where people are delaying certain combos intentionally
everyday i'm thankful proplayers don't make games
You got disliked for this but I'm with you.
I don't understand why a Legend rank would need more incentives to keep playing the game, I mean they obviously play the game a lot.
Remove guard crush and wall stun. And remove knowing if a stun is coming up.
Directional parries will not work in this game, JP's SA2, Blanka's doll mixups, Juri's Install, would be a nightmare to deal with. Melt Drive guage if you block, or do some miraculous high/low parrying? No thanks 👎. Directional Perfect Parries, as others have mentioned, is way more reasonable, while keeping general parry as a solution to ambiguous mixups/crossups/pressure strings.
Changing perfect parry to being a directional input like 3rd Strike would be the best way to add intentionality. This would also add both down Parries as well as Air parries.
I like the idea of air parries, as the idea of a high/low parry.
@@Jonkin715 Being able to air parry so to jump more freely since it get risky to anti air in a SF seems so wrong to me who like control caractere 😅
I swear the day my aa DP get parried i quit the game
with air parries, this'll change the anti air game. so universally the defender has to choose between:
blocking (less risky, but you can lose drive), anti-air(take damage AND lose out on meter, esp if you OD DP), air to air(they can parry anyways), parry on the ground (at best get a scaled 50% reward or go into burnout and die at worst), parry in the air
if you're at like half a pip of drive you're playing russian roulette and the odds only get worse the longer a round goes which is even more snowbally tbh
@@xfornicateur there is a rather simple way of countering this...
Give every character an air throw.
This way, there could be a rock/paper/scissors thing where parries beat attacks, throws beats parries, and attacks beat throws.
I wish Drive Reversal did chip. That'd be so sweet.
Timestamps on the topics in the description would be sick
@Jwong has parry ptsd 😂 if they gon nerf it how bout buffing up the counter throw zangief has that nobody uses and have more people have that 👌🏿
Not feeling delayed wake up in this. Who the hell wanna guess whether they're wasting their meter to drive rush on oki or not? Set play is okay sometimes guys. Agreed with rest though.
One weird thing about SF6 is that moves that look completely low but actually have high properties
Right! That should be a training thing. Like finally make an indicator like every other fighter, where it tells you what each attack is, high low mid and overhead.
Some of Chun Li's moves 🫠
@@joelevy3042 There's a setting for that, turn on 'Attack data' in training mode settings 👍
@@joelevy3042 you could also set the computer to parry. Each character has 3 dedicated parry animations that correspond to the attack's profile.
If they re do parry. Crouch parry should....parry low, block mid, but get hit with overhead. High parry should get hit by low
If they can't rework the regular parry then this should be a new system within burnout. Much smaller frame window of parry and the high low mixup.
I think for the Rank System, it's fine as is but for Legend specifically I feel they should have a separate Ranked mode for the Legend Ranks only and maybe have a different motivator in that mode, akin to Elite Smash basically
This would make the issue even worse. The problem they mentioned was that there already aren't enough players in Legend, especially with region-based matchmaking. Totally separating them from other Masters would make you even MORE likely to fight the same few people over and over. In Ranked matches with a large point disparity, figuring out how to make the higher and lower MR player both _want_ to rematch is the ultimate goal.
if there is a high and low parry, then JP's level 2 mixup would be totally broken.
Drive reversal takes way to much bar to be worth it over parrying or just jumping out.
They need to make parry a directional input, remove the button-command style and make it tap forward to parry high and down to parry low. Holding buttons to parry is too easy and mashing it i what it has become.
I would love to see directional input for parry and even red parry out of block to make drive-rush pressure a risk.
Quit trying to make the game SF3. That parry system had its own problems and would only further highlight issues in this game, specifically characters like JP who ALREADY have a strong high low mixup potential. Doing SF3 stunts like that would make JP almost impossible to deal with unless you snuff him up close, oh wait that cant work either because he STILL has great tools up close.
Make parry not holdable if u wanna keep it frame 1 but and if u wanna keep it the way it is now then at least give it 1-2 more start up frames :/
Don't worry gents, everybody is going to be playing Tekken 8 after the 25th anyway so
you’re telling me he wants parry to be nerfed? Daigo really did mental damage
i dont think diago likes parries either.
lel
Daigo hates parry ahahahah
Rank decay is pretty smart
Parry stops jab mashing, so please do not nerf this. This game has a whole bunch of unrelentless pressure that's completely brainless.
Tbh Parry just needs more whiff recovery is all to weaken people going for tap parry so much
Perfect parry is still hype and is perfectly fine geez.
Why must people always find something to complain about?😅😂
That's what the FGC does.
"We're a bunch of degenerates." - the FGC, about the FGC
Drive reversal needs to be a different input most times I get di
Needs to be faster.
Back + DI would be ideal since you're already blocking
@@themrfelipe6005the problem is when you use both heavies in timing with the opponent's strike, and the attack whiffs unexpectedly, you will perform an unwanted DI instead which can be punished hard.
@@max-d8105 oh, didn't know that was a thing for other players, i play on a Dualsense and use L1 for DI and L2 for parry
Cause you're not doing it right.
No character wishlist?! 😢
Keep it the same, just make the parry drain faster.
Really Justin? You wanna make players have to guess high low on parry in a game with JP? Yeah no thanks, nothing about that sounds like fun.
I had to stop a the deejay player saying he wants drive rush/ reversal to be faster. Can't take anything seriously after that.
We need dlc faster
Only decent comment I've seen here.
Just remove DR + Grab. The opponent can't have a GRAB on your wake up when you are half screen away
If they do change perfect parry like that, scaling would need to change. Some characters have 0 defense so yeah.
Commenting on every video requesting Makoto’s BBCF combo trials, video 56.
They've added delayed wake up in every Street fighter since 4, so you think they would just keep it in at this point as a system mechanic. 😂
I think the parry system could be fixed by making inputs for perfect parry distinct from regular parry. For instance, you could have high/low guessing exist only for perfect parry in which you'd have to explicitly press 6+mp+mk/2+mp+mk (respectively). Those would be strict in that you'd get wrecked if you miss, while regular parry would remain the same.
at that point just mirror third strike and use forward
@@polkunus I'm good for that too. lol
Funny with all the comments about perfect parry, I said it would be an issue long before the game was released and people were giving me shit for it hahah!!
That is not going to happen unfortunately. Those changes can make the casuals quit the game, because the fun factor is removed from them.
If you think pros opinions about parry system and how it works even effects the casuals that may potentially leave then u are pretty dense. The point is to widen the gap of skill. The casual will still be able to do everything they used to but now have to get skilled to compete with pro players. Who would've thunk it? Who would've thunk that if you want to compete with people that dedicate their lives to something that you have to put time and effort too.
@@Edz519 Taking away parry's ability to negate high low mixups would definitely effect low level players.
The rest of what you said is just a strawman argument.
I dont want high and low parries, i just think that they should separate regular parry and perfect parry. So what they should do is keep the hold parry but for PP make the input (back+parry), which is the only way to get PP. While also giving it a increased whiff recovery animation. Coupled with adding option for delay wakeup would be interesting as well
My personal wishlist is
As Justin said, a delayed wake up option
Remove throw loops that don't require drive rush
Either give everyone the ability to bait reversals by blocking while drive rush or completely remove it.
Might be controversial but, don't do anything to regular parry while making a separate input for PP like forward+parry which costs 2 bars, no meter refunded, cannot be held but easy to use and punish. Something very similar to Vshifts but more unsafe.
Buff AAs that don't hit cross ups to do so.
Nerf lvl3 damage
Make lvl 1 & 2 cancelable on every cancelable hit.
Reduce drive meter gain to reduce drive rush spam.
A faster and safe on block drive reversal.
Fix the inputs while someone is using drive rush. So many times my special inputs gets ignored because of a lucky random drive rush, which in most cases, whiff punishes the attack button I did after the motion inputs
low and high parry? it's hard enough as it is, i dont need it to be harder.
I want Juri's crouching MP hitbox changed so it doesn't hit targets a foot away from her hand, and Marisa's Quadriga hurtbox changed so it's actually off the ground when she is.
LOL talking about nerfing Juri's 2MP when Luke exists
I've been saying since the beta release that this "parry" shouldn't exist. This thing is not a parry, it is just a special kind of blocking. You use this just to prevent your drive gauge to decrease. That's its only purpose.
Only "perfect parries " are really parries, so those are the ones that should exist in the game. Moreover, these perfect parries should be performed pressing forward and the parry buttons, and low forward for the low blows. Maybe not with that little frame window, but yeah.
But this is just a little issue compared to the bad input readings that the game has. This game and the two before this are so bad programmed that they have the input readings so loose that you make more unwanted moves than in any other previous Capcom fighting game.
Not only unwanted specials, even unwanted jumps and such. It is just terrible, I don't understand how Capcom, that is the one who invented this kind of games can make these horrible controls now. Older games like Alpha series or EX series have shortcuts too, but those games have a real good controls, not like the new ones.
Before these latest games cheatboxes didn't exist, and anyone would have thought that such thing would have been necessary anyways. These games have forced the invention of these kind of things, before them these gadgets weren't even necessary at all. Just unthinkable.
the mismatched coin system to real currency should be illegal
Ken nerf,Luke nerf, JP nerf, Hondas charge has pushback like Blanka ball.
drive rush being the end all be all offensive tool is problematic. bring back plus frames on buttons and drop neutral drive rush.
i would like for every character to have an invincible reversal
@10:09 - 😎👍👉#Kizzie_Kay🤜🏾🤛🏻#JWONGGG
I think you should be able to parry to regain burnout meter. It’s risky and all still allows for rewarding comeback scenarios at lower levels
Maybe in burnout give us the high low parry system. This will give people in burnout a chance but also they have to actually make the right choice. Will leave them extremely vulnerable.
If parry get high/low change, then OD parry need to be added as well. High/low parry should spend even less drive bar than current parry cost, while OD parry spend more but able to intercept both high/low. Also when drive rush is executed from OD parry, the drive rush should have a new property. Maybe better damage scaling for OD parry into drive rush?
I thought v trigger come backs were bad in sfv but burnout is so much worse.
I feel like Justin's parry rework requires his delayed wakeup suggestion. Parry is a great way to punish players who drive rush into a meaty attempt after a knockdown. If the player attempting that parry now has to guess high or low, it gives too much power to the player on offense who stole Oki using the drive rush.
So yeah, I would mind it, but only if we get delayed wakeup too.
Caught in the Smash trap.
Make parry so that you can't hold it.
They should put perfect parry on different button, or by just tapping the parry button, so that if you miss it (too early), it doesn't go automatically into normal parry and becomes much more risky. Also perfect parry shouldn't use up resource so that it can be used during burnout, as a last ditch come back tool.
Big nope on delayed wake up option when parry is already a thing, that's even without perfect parry in mind, the one on the offensive shouldn't be guessing that much including dealing with wakeup reversals, drive reversal possibly even being buffed on top of all that. Plus this heavily screws grapplers.