Do me a favor and check out my latest Pioneer deck brew, it's an awesome mono white devotion list that I think you'll get a kick out of watching: ua-cam.com/video/OEUbj9W6sEU/v-deo.html
"I'm the White Mana Guru. Whenever someone loses faith in White, I magically appear." "That must keep you pretty busy." I can't stop laughing! Holy shit!
Mentioning fetchlands to a magic designer is taboo. They're shit designs inherited from their ancestors they have to keep wrestling with because people won't just accept that magic decks were never meant to have access to 40 copies of 5 colors untap lands. Just let it go, guys, they aren't coming back
@@garak55 then they should either ban them in all formats or just print them in commander geared products. Don't ever have to touch standard, and people get access to something that most veterans have. It's a weird paywall to face if you want to play multiple colors in commander. You don't need them but I rather be able to access them, then ask my playgroup to "slow down their play style". Being able to grab a card, fix your colors, and reduce the number of cards in your deck to increase the chances of drawing a key card, feels great.
15:56 I Do like that the white box is missing on the shelve while Mr. Nieh, wearing a white - symbol tee-shirt, it's really drive home the impression that the actual représentative is talking to everyone .
I also noticed that from the beginning ^^ I'm not 100% sure whether that was intended, but to me the fact that it's missing throughout the interview makes it appear like he's the litteral incarnation of the Plains box!
agreed. plays to both of white's strengths: token generation and sweepers. If immediate temporary card draw is Red, then certainly delayed gratification(card draw) would be white. Love it!
Watching this and just wanted to say that Vince is an excellent interviewer (prof is too but we already knew that) and Ari was really good at handling some of the trickier questions. Great interview guys.
He cut Ari off SO MANY TIMES. It was infuriating. An interview should be "Ask the guest a question and then let him ramble on for a while", not "ask the guest a question then cut him off after he sets up a premise to make a silly joke and then ask another question". First time I've come across Vince (I was actually here to hear from the guest) but on this evidence I'd say he's a terrible interviewer.
@@keithkeller4546 Garfield mentions it in this podcast kitchentablemagic.org/2017/06/20/richard-garfield/ For Maro, I guess you could use the search on his blog. I don't have a link ready.
Here's a wild thought: make White's card draw be Monarch. It is a slow but consistent source of draw that requires you to maintain a good board state to control entirely while also creating a (usually) very fun sub-game. It can be fought over or shared between players, giving it a "fair" aspect that almost all white cards have. On top of that, I think that royalty and monarchies in magic are generally tied to white due to white being the color of order and rule.
Monarch is a mechanic tied to and flavored for multiplayer. I hope they make something like it for 1v1, but I don't think they should just make Monarch a 1v1 format mechanic.
Monarch is somewhat broken in 1v1 because it's a lot harder for your single opponent to take it from you, especially if they're a control deck or if your deck is built around protecting your monarchy. It is only fun & fair in commander because 3 other people can take it from you. In that respect it's a lot like the voting mechanic from the original conspiracy, which is also busted in 1v1.
Cards shouldn't be able to everything except in green. Green has best creatures, best card draw in EDH, amazing "counterspells" (Heroic Intervention, Veil of Summer). Green has amazing removal (kill any permanent for 6, while other colors need to use the 7 mana colorless spells - Spine of Ish Sah, Scour from Existence, Meteor Golem, Unstable Obelisk). There is no reason for white not have more card draw based on either creature count, lifegain, or taxing effects (like Rhystic Study)
Tyler Rowe I feel this. When Ari mentioned virtual card draw I started to visibly shake at the notion that virtual card draw is better than actually drawing cards.
@@andrewboyko8304 in many situations virtual card advantage is better than drawing cards, because (lets say in the case of Archon of Sun's Grace) you don't have to use resources to deploy the advantage, you just get the advantage from deploying your usual threats and answers.
@@Chuubii Green is my favorite color but is in no way the best at drawing cards lol don't get me wrong it's draw is incredibly strong but it still gets heavily outclassed by black and blue
Flicker effects, Stax, Equipment, Exiling, Reanimating, and a Sac philosophy that differs significantly from Black. There’s gotta be a way to unite these conventions. I believe in you, R&D!
I really don't understand why black gets the Exile it does. Like Vraska's contempt seems like it should be a white card. Black can destroy, white exile, and orzhov exile/or destroy with probably life loss or gain
Jack Pabich I think Black’s shtick is it can do most anything, just at a slightly higher mana cost, some creature Saccing, and/or some life pay. Vraska’s contempt fits that “extraneous cost” trend, as do Withering Boon and Gate to Phyrexia. You wanna do stuff the other colors do? You gotta be able to pay for it. White on the other hand has extremely Mana efficient cards that instead of harming you, reimburse your opponents. Swords to Plowshares and Path To Exile are flagship White removal and all things being equal would be included in a BW deck before Vraska’s Contempt would be.
@@casketbase7750 Sure. I am mainly thinking about it's impact on Standard. And I wouldn't say that Contempt has a downside except maybe it's high cmc when it comes to eternal formats. And I think that it is fundamentally wrong for any color to be able to do everything. That's the entire point of the color pie. There are things (like card draw and creature interaction) that all colors should be able to do, but not one color should be able to do anything. Like how black has issues dealing with artifacts and enchantments
Jack Pabich Ah, okay. I mostly play Oathbreaker with friends, so that explains my skewed examples. Yeah, nonrotating formats have access to all historically good White cards, but Standard needs a continuous steady supply.
32:50 "Four basic drawbacks for white removal" You can apply those to drawing and get a very white draw. 1) Targeting restrictions -> *Target player with 2 or less cards in hand draws 3 cards* -> *Reveal the top 4 cards of your library. Put all Soldiers in it into your hand* 2) Reversibility -> "When this comes into the battlefield, exile the top 7 cards of your library until this leaves the battlefield. You may play cards exiled with this" 3) Symetry -> "At the beggining of your upkeep, each player draws a card/ scrys 3" or better yet "Each player draws an amount of cards equal to 4 minus the cards they have in hand" 4) Compensation -> "Draw a card and create a 4/4 angel with flying. Then each opponent may create up to five 4/4 angels with flying. For each token created this way, you may draw a card"
@@JO11190 That one I call "spreading democracy" or "troops for resources" That's my second favorite after and my "feed the poor" one, which gives cards to those in need of them
i also had the idea of reactionary card draw "the giant wakes" whenever a source or spell an opponent controls causes a permanent you control to leave the battlefield, draw a card.
@@keithwynn8390 yeah I think he was holding back reiterating for the 4th or 5th time that he joined the team very recently. This guy can take a lot of nonsense without losing it. It's commendable.
That comment was so damn awkward. It felt like The Professor felt left out in the interview and tried to butt in with a joke. Sometimes hosts hate not being in the spotlight and that is a big mistake in interviews
White has recently getting more "recruit" cards, creatures that can tutor others. That's certainly a better card advantage than the "virtual" one with tokens. But for "how we really should DRAW and still feel like being in white", I think we have good examples in Mentor of the Meek, Well of Lost Dreams, Dawn of Hope. Those mechanics should be watched, replicated and improved. Cycling is another thing White is good at, and if Red gets Tectonic Reformation, White should get "creatures have cycling 2" or something, that help out some strategies while at it. Cards that care about you not taking damage or maintaining a high life total in a turn to draw a card should feel fine as well, and other good ones could be "if you attack with 3 or more creatures, draw a card", "if you had a token enter the battlefield, draw a card at the end of the turn", "when a player casts a spell paying more mana than its cmc, draw a card", and even for removal-focused decks there could be a reverse-revolt effect "if an opponent had a permanent leave the battlefield, at the end of turn draw a card". Will of the Council and Council's Dillema are good ones to invest in as well. But if the problem is the "draw a card" wording, there could be more effects like Board the Weatherlight in the color, those that look the top "N" cards and let you reveal one and put into your hand, or others with wording similar to Fact or Fiction, but letting each opponent choose one and giving you a slight advantage to get what you want
Smothering Tithe is also a good example of what white could do for card draw. Frankly, Rhystic Study (or a nerfed version thereof) feels like it’s right in white’s wheelhouse.
You could also do card draw in the way that Resplendent Angel makes tokens: at end step if you gained X life this turn, draw a card. Or even whenever you gain X life, draw a card. What is more white than being rewarded for gaining life?
Eidolon of obstruction made it so any opponent trying to use a Planeswalker ability had to pay a colorless. White definitely needs more taxes and card draw that isn't defiant strike.
Yes!! dear God yes!! But but Wizards will never go it because because these sort of effects are deemed "unfun". I'll tell you what is unfun, dying to a Titan on turn three. I hate green so much!!!
@@brcienpartin5462 There's a difference between "precedent" and "This is common sense, it fits with the color flavor, it fits with the color pie, why hasn't it happened yet?"
"What does card draw look like in each color?" Blue: I have knowledge Green:I learn from the world and life around me Red: My ideas come from a impulse of passion and discovery Black: I manipulate others and things around me for my desire White: *...Let me get uhh...*
White is more like: oh you guys want to draw a bunch of cards or want to play spells? let me stop you from getting advantage. (alm's collector, aura of silence, rule of law) - Seems like white is not designed to get advantage by drawing much, more like its getting the advantage by denying the ressources of others
White is about society. There could be more cards like Mentor of the Meek. A symmetrical effect could be: "each player draws a cards for every creature they control."
In the realm of Commander, I really like the idea of white being a tit-for-tat color. If you do X, I get Y. Smothering Tithe did that perfectly. Land Tax does that flavorfully, even if it does take an annoying amount of time to resolve physically. Comeuppance is another example.
Yeah, Rhystic Study is a card that feels more white to me than it does blue. All the taxxing stuff just feels like a really white thing. Also would love to see an enchantment in white that reads something like "At the beginning of each opponent's end step, if you've lost no life this turn, draw a card." or something of the sort.
I think Keeper of the Accord in Commander Legends was a step in the right direction as well for EDH, although not so much for Modern (not playable) and Legacy (too slow). If you have more creatures than me, I get a creature. If you have more lands than me, I get a land. Every turn.
It was a really interesting interview but I have two massive issues with what was said. Token generation and card draw are NOT the same thing. Creating a token does not give me the possibility of drawing another card that I may need such as a removal spell or hitting my land drops. Also, mono-color decks should be a viable option for those of us who want to build them. In formats like commander, one of the colors should not be lacking access to key mechanics such as card draw and ramp. No color should just be a support color. Smothering Tithe was a step in the right direction for white. Right now, white needs card draw and there are plenty of ways to do so without breaking the color pie. And if you do not want the cards in standard, then just put them in non-standard legal products like the commander precons.
One way of looking at it could be that token generation is taking the place of what would be another card, so you can be that much more likely to draw an answer. Or: if your answers generate tokens, then you can have more answers and not worry so much about losing out on creatures.
Solution: White should be able to make token Plains. We saw token lands in the Mystery Boosters, white makes tokens, boom, let white make token Plains. Maybe a card like: "Palace of Glass" 2W Sorcery: put a Palace token into play. It's an Enchantment Land - Plains.
@@trunkulent Especially in commander, white still needs the card draw cause if token creatures are supposed to be the card draw for white, then white basically has to discard all the cards it drew because someone played a boardwipe
imo, the social contract really hinders white, as greens ramp is untouchable to things like mld, one of white's strengths, but artifact ramp is very vulnerable.
Hot take: Spells that cause creatures to fight are fine in green, but creatures with etb:fight should be strictly red. That as a green mechanic takes away Green's dependence on having a creature already on burn and basically just turns the creature into a removal spell. See: wicked wolf. It's very green in flavor but it feels very red when playing it.
Wow. This was spicy. You guys were definitely not going easy on him. He seems like a sweet soul who's trying his best. Which is all we can ask for as humans.
He's fairly new to the job, so I have some hope. The cards he put together in the brawl decks were pretty compelling. I am glad that Prof and Vince didn't go easy on him, and he did a decent job all the same.
@@hapijoel7569 maybe... My brain cant reconcile that sentence tho. Its telling me considered is past tense of consider and the pertaining adjective is considerate... But maybe it's a brain fart
@@RichieDubbz In this context, considered is an adjective and not a verb. Considerate is similar but has a slightly different meaning. If this was multiple choice SAT, considerate would be “less correct.” Even if you don’t know a word exactly, you can always use context. Using the frame of the sentence helps to understand the words. Without a frame you can’t distinguish between the verb and adjective. This is exactly the skill that is tested for in high-level SAT reading.
20:36 An idea for white card draw that feels white to me: Draw cards till you have as many cards as the opponent with the most cards in his hand. White is about balance and fairness. Well, at least to me. So a way to balance out hand sizes would represent that to me. It's a bit like a one time Land Tax for card draw.
It's definitely something WotC should play with more, but it's a strong effect that couldn't be printed in lower rarities so it doesn't solves much. It's like Red's Wheels effects - it's a nice addition, but it really didn't solve the problem by itself, reason why it got Impulse Draw.
I think white should also get more Spirit of the Labyrinth effects. Unfortunately, blue, the color that’s best at drawing cards, is also the best at suppressing card draw.
That's an amazing video! Stellar quality! Designers insight on the game is always very very thoughtful and I really would love something like that for all five colors.
I think a lot of the solution to the getting white back on track in Commander is by adding "For each opponent" to a lot of already staple cards. Raise the alarm, Anthem, Path to exile. I think you also can get a lot by making symmetry to already existing cards. Banishing Light, but one permanent for each player.
In old school white is such a powerhouse with Swords, Disenchant, Balance and Serra Angel 💪 and of course Semite Healer to prevent the damage from those incredible Prodigal Sorcerers.
>Semite Healer Oy vey! Also, StP is a color pie break and white just can't have those, disenchant effects can be green too(the best disenchant is monoG IIRC), balance is way too powerful and Serra Angel is honestly nothing special these days. It's like they decided to deliberately shit all over everything that made white good, wtf
@@johncreekpaum4998 A little lifegain for your opponent is a meaningless downside in modern magic. Path is also recognized as being undercosted though that doesn't make it a break.
Absolutely fantastic interview and I hope to see further installations of getting the perspectives of the other advisors working at R&D. It's incredibly important for the player base, particularly those that identify strongly with given colors/mechanics, to understand the thought process and philosophy behind the different stages of card and set design at WotC. Nieh's talking points revealed alot of perspectives regarding white that I might have accepted and internalized over the years, but never actually had articulated myself or by others, which helps very much so in appreciating what exists in the past, and what to expect and interpret in the future. This type of community outreach and engagement is a tenent of transparency and community building I'm happy to see WotC is enthusiastic to explore. Thanks Professor and Kenobi for hosting it!
This was amazing. Having White as my favorite color, I think it is in good hands with this guy. Of course White has a lot of shortcommings compared to other colors (especially in the card advantage space), but this guy knows it is not so simple to fix that and still make White cards. Because, in the end of the day, if we didn't care about the colors and theis flavors, we would not care at these things and just play the color(s) that give us the most. What I do believe is that White needs improvements on the controling aspects of the game. White needs better preemptive answers, and better answers that are competitively playable. I mean, the flavor of Oblivion Ring effects is amazing, but when every relevant threat has an ETB ability or similar (like planeswalkers), the drawback of losing your removal effect is bigger than just getting a Doom Blade countered or a Lightning Bolt targetting a creature getting buffed out of killing range. I think White needs better compensation-like removals that are actually fair for both players and/or restrictive targets that are not that restrictive. Declaration in Stone seems amazing for that kind of effect, it's a shame it's a sorcery. Cards with effects similar to Fatal Push could be White I believe, as Elspeth Conquers Death represents that kind of effect pretty well. They just need to give us a little better White answers in the mana cost department (not this guy's job), the flavor and color identity are already abundant. And I think White should get some worse-than-Blue conditional counterspells. Mana Tithe and Lapse of Certainty both feel very White, there is some design space to explore here. And I also do believe lifegain mechanics should be explored more within White. As pure lifegain is pretty bad, rewards for doing that are a very nice thing to have, cards like the new Heliod, Ajani's Pridemate and Dawn of Hope are amazing at that.
20:03 "What is it [card draw] that feels White specifically? I can't answer that question right now." "... right now" Okay, either Ari isn't sure about the best way to answer the question, or he KNOWS something's in the pipeline and can't talk about it. Could be a good thing either way.
Basically he couldn't think of an answer. Because white is to card draw as red is to destroying enchantments. You ain't gonna get no good card draw. But they don't want to admit that.
"I am not very good with card names, I know what they do"-Remembers exactly the following names by a brief description of what they do:Cry of the carnarium, Light up the stage, Archon of sun's grace and Experimental Frenzy
Well he plays limited a lot and those are recent cards. I think he means older cards, or even supplemental cards. As although he figured out what the cards from the brawl deck were called it took him a second as they aren't something he probably sees often.
His first experience with Cry, Light, and Frenzy might actually have been playtests after they received their final names, especially since they all function well in Limited. Archon being a strong card in current Standard and seeing play at Worlds helps with that one. It’s not 100% or 0% at card names
This is probably my favorite Dies to Removal: thoughtful insights, sharp questions, top-end level comedy and a great guest that answers with sincerity, focus and engagement.
I'm happy to hear Ari speak at length about respecting emotional favor and feel. I think it is pretty obvious to say that you shouldn't "make divination white", but I love the argument that flavor and feel are equally important in why that is wrong.
I had a thought while watching this. In the spirit of Ghostly Prison and Norn's Annex- a card in white (enchantment, creature, colored artifact, whatever) that states "whenever a creature attacks you, that creature's controller must pay (1). If they don't, you draw a card." Instead of stopping the attack, it forces them to pay a toll, one way or another.
I mean wizards in general hate to focus on cards that have damaged formats, like oko and nexus was as they have stated in the past wasn't meant to be constructed all star it just was a perfect storm with wildness reclamation.
i like very much how Ari takes every question and tries to give a answer properly to the philosophy of white color and also make us think about the "how white wizard role playing should be", great video! thanks!
I think white cards should have options for slightly more mana. You see it in cleansing nova. Imagine if prince charming was the direction white was going. Imagine if hushbringer stated "choose one: etbs are shut off, ltbs are shut off, or players can't cast spells from their graveyard." I think instead of pushing cards like hushbringer simply as a stronger edition of Tocatli honour guard. I think that versatility would help the color along with providing yourself a mechanic that is relevant for your opponents while avoiding nonbo's on your end.
This was one of the most informative video's you've done Professor and that's saying a LOT, your videos are always overloaded with info and insight. I'm looking forward to more of these! Oh, and more Office Hours videos... please, please!
To quote a friend of mine: "This is honestly one of the best pieces of MTG related content I have been able to digest in a while." and I cannot agree more! Really appreciate the in-depth look and hope you finish the color cycle
White needs a unique card draw like Ari said, same as how red got a special version. My suggestions are drawing from bottom, opponent cutting deck and you add card to hand from where they seperated, reveal 2 or more cards to opponent from deck and they put one in your hand, put 2 or more cards from deck facedown and pick one at random, a form of suspend card draw were you put card from deck aside with a time counter. or maybe shuffle graveyard an draw from graveyard.
I'd like a Draw effect that rewards White being defensive. An effect like: "Draw a card on your next upkeep if you took no damage last turn", kinda like how Mishra's Bauble works. Or similar, "Draw a Card if your OPPONENT did not lose life"
They have been fixing colors lately with a few "flavor acceptable" options that keep it inside the pie, because the pie is about the flavor in the end, Like they have been pushing "fight" as a green mechanic to emulate Creature removal but it is still very green in the fact that the creature is being removed by brute force. Red did the same with the "remove from the top of the library and you can play it this turn" that feels pretty red in its volatility and burn-trough-resources way, but came to fix the "run out of fuel" issue with red. So for White I believe Protection from X is the way to go, White is a color that likes both attacking (think Mentor, exalted, battlecry, battalion, that are mostly White) and defending (Protection from color, prevent damage, gain life, and other defensive tactics) Protection gives advantage both ways and feels very white. But protection mostly discontinued.
Can we talk about how White is a strictly worse version of Green? Green does Lifegain, Tokens, Removal, Tax Effects, Small Creatures with good abilities, and can also draw cards and ramp.
@@jamesloucka1952 Sure. Although maybe I misspoke. I meant stax type effects and not actual mana tax effects. I can't think of any of those in green. But Collector Ouphe, Root Maze, and Hall of Gemstone all strike me as cards that could be white.
Was genuinely surprised at how insightful this episode was! Really makes me hopeful that my favourite colour can be redeemed in commander. Or maybe that’s just the White Mage in me :)
The thing I really enjoy about the interview style here is that y'all are actually working with Ari. Unlike many journalistic interviews where where those interviewing are trying to contort answers to fit their narrative or rile up the interviewee, Vince and Brian are actually trying to converse and understand by paraphrasing and building upon statements to clear up ambiguity rather than create it. It just lead to a really nice listening experience.
This was one of the most interesting mtg conversations I’ve had the pleasure of listening to. I love hearing about the color pie and how it maps onto human and animal psychology. Please do one of these interviews with a color pie representative from each of the colors! Hell, being the whole council!
I always thought green's opposite was white (probably weird, but in my mind white is order/law and green is nature/all that hippie jazz.).... so in that sense, if Green is good at everything, it would make sense its opposite color would be good at nothing.
I absolutely love this video! Big well done to Vince and Brian for sitting down with Ari and having such an intellectual and interesting look at the behind the scenes of such important aspects of magic. Would absolutely love to see dies to removal interview more reps for the council of colours. Keep up the good work guys ♥️
Yeah of course It's the "3 for 1" cycle: Healing Salve - Heal 3 Ancestral Call - Draw 3 Dark Ritual - 3 Black Mana Lightning Bolt - 3 Damage Giant Growth - +3/+3 Of course their power levels are *wildly* out of proportion, but that was the original vision.
Ari Nieh is really cool and she answered all those questions really well. It's fascinating to hear her talk about the process of vision/exploratory design.
I think the center of White's problem is that Wizards is acutely aware of its identity, and therefore reticent to deviate from it. Maybe the real issue is that they are so wishy-washy with the identity of the other colors. They obviously have no clue what the identity of green is- unless green's identity is to be every color...
For real, you can't name ONE thing green doesn't have access to at this point. Card draw, card selection, every kind of ramp, color fixing, removal, direct damage effects, counterspell interaction (it's rare, but it's there), go wide, go tall, graveyard recursion, clones, etc. etc. etc.
I think they get at the core of what's wrong with white: it smacks itself in the face all the time. It has great removal and board wipes. But it wants a big, wide board or even voltron strategies. Neither of which are helped by its other half. Most "taxing" cards/hate-bears are a double edged sword. Most other colors hate bears are one sided, screwing your opponents. White just says "All graveyards are exiled," and "all ETB and death triggers don't work". It essentially makes you build around not having any mechanics your deck is trying to stop and also fill your deck with silver bullet answers that you might not even see in a game. Every other color additionally has card advantage as well as powerful flavor bonuses. Black has access to graveyards like its an extra hand, as well as use life as a resource even though lifegain is mostly white. Blue has the highest synergy with artifacts and vice versa. Green has a massive ability to gain mana and using that mana each turn to generate even more creatures than white wants. Red has been getting its exile the top of your deck, which is practically a more powerful scry. Whites got "If you cast a creature and it deal combat damage THEN you may draw a single card".
Can we get a “if you gained 3 or more life last Turn draw a card?” Or “if you would gain life you may add colourless mana equal to the amount of life you would have gained” type stuff? Or maybe a card called humble that removes +1/+1 counters to draw cards? Everything needs to ramp and draw cards, why don’t we want white doing this?
I mean, everyone craps on Dawn of Hope but it's really easy to draw cards off of it in White. White has tons of ways of gaining life, even on your opponent's turns, so Dawn should be getting triggered pretty often. Dawn of Hope with Smothering Tithe is a hard to remove card draw engine in a lot of games I've played.
@jvalex18 I think White is going to be the "trigger - pay 2 to draw" type of card draw. Dawn of Hope and Mentor of the Meek both cost to draw after a trigger, but both are really easy to trigger for White. I'd love to see another Enchantment like Dawn coming. Especially since Dawn is such a powerhouse in my Alela deck.
Well done on all counts. While tension was tangible, you all handled it with grace. Some ideas for white card draw, just because it's there: Soul's Rest Enchantment 2W At the beginning of your upkeep, if you gained 3 or more life since your last upkeep, draw a card. Basically, make card draw dependent on doing other "white" things. For instance, Ephara, God of the Polis, integrates the blink mechanic with card draw. The blink mechanic is something both colors can do, but that's a prime example of a card draw spell that could be specifically white. Maybe a card that names exile as the trigger mechanic: "Whenever you exile a nonland permanent an opponent controls, draw a card" Or a mentor of the meek effect: "Whenever a white creature with power 2 or less enters the battlefield under your control, draw a card" Or damage prevention: "Prevent all damage target permanent would deal this turn, draw that many cards." These are ideas. That is all.
convoke feels like the answer. convoke could be used for ramp and could print cards that draw cards based on creatures convoked. it's also a multi set mechanic.
All around great interview, allthough I would have loved to see Vince pick Ari's brain on whether he believes Rhystic Study should/could be a white card
@@TolarianCommunityCollege Makes sense, had already considered that was the case. Nevertheless would have been interesting to hear his thoughts on the matter.
Whenever a player (probably should say opponent) gains life that player pays one or you draw a card. Seems very white and Rhystic Study for white to me although could also be insanely broken for white. Or maybe reverse it whenever a player draws a card you gain 2 life unless that player pays one. The second one is a lot more balanced and still fits the white theme.
Here's an example of white card draw on flavor that can be a tax/prayer/rite/penance/grace/etc.: Basically make the cmc 1-2 more than a traditional blue draw, but the draw wont happen immediately (ie. Waiting for the prayer to be answered). Delay it so that when X happens draw a card (ei. on your next draw step draw 2...or after you next opponents end step.
silent prayer 2W enchantment. when cardname ETB or at your upkeep choose a) gain 2 life b) sac cardname and draw 2 cards (reminds me of quiet disrepair) gives lifegain as natural hate against aggro and burn. you sit down to pray and awake enlightend when you finish. if the opponent has an answer you get literally punished for being greedy. neutral with destructive revelry. could be a new enchantment subtype prayer. to be the opposite of curses (benevolent and temporary)
WOW!! He just announced a new set!! Equestria!! A block set just beyond the periphery. Very exciting. I wonder if they wanted to divulge this through him or he let it slip.
Actually he just used the code name for that set. We actually have a significant number of code names for upcoming sets including: “Equestrian”, “Fencing”, “Golf”, “hockey”, “Ice skating”, and “Judo”. These were known names which is why nobody there acted with any surprise when he mentioned it.
Equestrian is actually the code name for the set after zendikar, coming next January and the name is based on all of the future sets being code named after sports. Still would be cool to see some of those old portal cards come back tho :)
Future sets who's names have not been released are currently given sports names in Alphabetical order. Starting with Throne of Eldraine (Archery), Equestrian is the codename for the set after Zendikar Rising (Diving), we know of the codenames (and only the codenames) of the sets from from Equestrian through Judo.
What a wonderful talk, very insightful and well spoken. I think it gave great perspective into the color pie and the meta game we all play. As a pretty much STRICTLY commander player I agree with most of the things said (in white being better in other formats and as a support color)... but also I look at green... what I would say is the antithesis of white. Green does it all. It does all of these “core values of magic” very well. White DOES need some support for evergreen formats to make it up to par with other colors.
Thraben inspector was a really good example of how card draw can work in white. It is not immediate, but stored for later and taxes. The storage is almost counter to reds impulsive card draw
Ari directly said White's key flaw: It wants to play fair Magic, and is the kindest of the colors. All the other colors are allowed to express self-interest in ways white cannot. Which is a challenge in a game about combat and battle and winning at any cost.
Honestly, White being "fair" if it was the brutally enforced, totalitarian implementation of oppressive laws would make it competitive. Get rid of White's mercy. Give them cards emphasizing back breaking tax, control, and protection effects.
@@kalixascsi66 It's an idea, but as they mentioned in the video, taxes are increasingly viewed as "not fun" ways to play Magic, especially for new and casual players (reminder that there is no wrong way to play MtG if everyone has similar expectations).
I don't think that really goes anywhere. Cards like Declaration in Stone, Banishing Light, Day of Judgment and Thalia have a distinct "fair" feeling without being bad cards in the slightest. And note that I picked cards with acceptable power. If we're gonna go crazy, Swords to Plowshares and Balance say hi.
I think that one mechanic that really is overlooked in white is things like Land Tax. It doesn't allow you to surpass, but you can keep up. Something like that where you can draw an additional card if someone has more cards than you, or something that hardens the rules like aven mind censure is another route that white can go but is rarely taken advantage of.
Kinda tired of them changing the goalposts on him. "Let's talk about Standard?" "What about Healing Salve?" "Well then why does white suck in EDH?" Like geez, he was trying to address EDH before all of this...
#WhiteIsAndNeedsJustice Another suggestion is with another meta-mechanic for white: conditional catch-up search. If each opponent has more than you do on the battlefield, search for a land or at least a plains, reveal it and put it into the battlefield if the opponent has 2 or more lands, otherwise, put it into your hand, and shuffle. Thos condition is basically the combination of the conditions of Mangara, the Diplomat in C21, and Gift of Estates in Commander 14. #WhiteIsAndNeedsJustice
"There are some game actions and objects that are essential to the game" Card draw seems pretty essential to the game. "We won't just put Diviniation in White" But Cryptic Command can be put into Green. Oh c'mon. >.>
except it was not at all like cryptic command. It couldn't counter any threats, it could only protect your threats which is a very green thing to do. It also couldn't tap down or bounce anything. Also he freely admitted that white should get some way of drawing cards, he just didn't exactly know how they were going to do it just yet. That's one point where the discussions are good though since there are a lot of good ideas floating around atm.
White Card Draw: Use enchantments to exile from top of deck and allow play from the enchantment. Base the exile around a tax effect, gaining life, or smaller creatures. Oila. Fun.
As someone having played a mono-white EDH deck for a few years, planeswalkers are what I’ve been playing and how I keep advantage. Similar to the Djeru deck Prof just did a video on. Cards for this have come for this strategy for white over several sets, Call the Gatewatch, Djeru with Eyes Open, Ignite the Beacon, and Arena Rector to get to planeswalkers, and then a few other cards like Grateful Apparition and Oath of Gideon that help power them up. I think that I’d love to see more of White’s advantage go in this direction and have things being expanded with this strategy.
Blue: Divination Black: Night's Whisper Green: Harmonize Red: Light Up the Stage White: Nothing. Why can't white at least get a draw 2/gain 2 life spell? Also, coming from a Commander perspective: yes, white can gain virtual card advantage, but getting a 2/2 is so much worse than drawing a card in a multiplayer format. And if Commander is your most popular format, you really should try and balance for that at least a little bit.
@@gabriellecureux5528 harmonize came in a set that was specifically designed to break the color pie though. time spiral block was the biggest mistake in magic bar none imo
Something I didn't know until I looked it up: Mr. Nieh was a winner of the Great Designer Search. He presented himself in a very composed way, despite some of the sillier behavior from our dear hosts. I especially liked his note about the metric of "how likely is this card to make my opponent quit Magic forever." Commander in particular is often based around that metric.
Do me a favor and check out my latest Pioneer deck brew, it's an awesome mono white devotion list that I think you'll get a kick out of watching: ua-cam.com/video/OEUbj9W6sEU/v-deo.html
WHO WOULD MAKe a GAME WITH 5 COLORS WHERE SOME OF EM ARE GOOD AND THE REST SHIT
Ari holds himself and speaks like he's a literal wizard.
I respect the hell outta that.
And I know it was a skit but that entrance was not only badass but damn funny.
I was getting serious orzhov vibes from him...*suspicious stare*
When he talks about the council of colors, I get a funny picture in my head. :D
zeth fox the other part of his shirt is black..... the mad lad
He specifically holds himself as a white wizard. He's very calm, orderly, serene. Its so surreal I almost think it's an act but it's not
White's colour identity is "good sideboard cards"
And splashable for Teferi
Peter Lotocki I was about to say being a necessary cmc tax for control staples but you beat me to it.
It feels a bit concerning when the colour's representative's defence for it being very weak is "yeah, but these 2-5 coloured cards tho."
somedude773 this guy doesn’t decide how playable white cards are. He’s just offering counter examples.
Loses game one to be the strongest game2/3 decks
Also exiling stuff
"I'm the White Mana Guru. Whenever someone loses faith in White, I magically appear."
"That must keep you pretty busy."
I can't stop laughing! Holy shit!
Best burn i've ever heard
i died...😂😂😂 or better got exiled
Bruno de Souza
Rest In Peace.
@@supranova7594 no wonder the Professor likes mono-red so much
Exiled!!
Green representative is the CEO of Hasbro.
It is the color of money, after all.
Makes too much sense
9:20 They literally mention this.
that explains the whole "survival of the fittest" feeling of competitive magic and by fittest i mean "richest"
"We all know what people would like to have..."
Vince internally screaming: "FETCH LANDS!!!"
I was the whole time. They can't even say they won't because of "slow play time" after fabled passage. And evowilds and teramorphic.
@jvalex18 I believe he was meaning commander as thats the format that needs the color fixing lands the most
Mentioning fetchlands to a magic designer is taboo.
They're shit designs inherited from their ancestors they have to keep wrestling with because people won't just accept that magic decks were never meant to have access to 40 copies of 5 colors untap lands. Just let it go, guys, they aren't coming back
@@garak55 then they should either ban them in all formats or just print them in commander geared products. Don't ever have to touch standard, and people get access to something that most veterans have. It's a weird paywall to face if you want to play multiple colors in commander. You don't need them but I rather be able to access them, then ask my playgroup to "slow down their play style".
Being able to grab a card, fix your colors, and reduce the number of cards in your deck to increase the chances of drawing a key card, feels great.
15:56 I Do like that the white box is missing on the shelve while Mr. Nieh, wearing a white - symbol tee-shirt, it's really drive home the impression that the actual représentative is talking to everyone .
The white box vanished when Ari made white "Never exist" and he removed it
That’s amazing attention to detail!
@@michaeldesjardin705 he exiled white
I also noticed that from the beginning ^^ I'm not 100% sure whether that was intended, but to me the fact that it's missing throughout the interview makes it appear like he's the litteral incarnation of the Plains box!
The plains box is included in the beginning of the video, so it's def intentional
"You exiled Brian"
"Yeah, gonna get a lot of high fives back at the Mothership for that"
This was my favourite part of the intro skit
White card draw should be Ugin, The Ineffable's +1. make a token that "draws" when it leaves.
This is actually the best idea I've heard in a while.
agreed. plays to both of white's strengths: token generation and sweepers. If immediate temporary card draw is Red, then certainly delayed gratification(card draw) would be white. Love it!
Came to comment exactly this! That early conversation felt like this is the conclusion R&D should be on!
Or draw spells conditional on the amount of creatures you have?
This is so obvious it should be embarrassing
Watching this and just wanted to say that Vince is an excellent interviewer (prof is too but we already knew that) and Ari was really good at handling some of the trickier questions.
Great interview guys.
Really? Felt like he didn’t get it to me.
He cut Ari off SO MANY TIMES. It was infuriating. An interview should be "Ask the guest a question and then let him ramble on for a while", not "ask the guest a question then cut him off after he sets up a premise to make a silly joke and then ask another question".
First time I've come across Vince (I was actually here to hear from the guest) but on this evidence I'd say he's a terrible interviewer.
Sooooo glad to hear this guy finally say that drawing cards is a necessary and basic game action that all colors need access to. Preach!
What do you mean by finally? Mark Rosewater and Richard Garfield have said that before.
@@florianw116 I just haven't seen it then I guess. Do you have a link or something?
@@keithkeller4546 Garfield mentions it in this podcast kitchentablemagic.org/2017/06/20/richard-garfield/
For Maro, I guess you could use the search on his blog. I don't have a link ready.
@@florianw116 Well, MaRo has been saying that lack of card draw is White's supposed weakness for several years.
Sadly that doesnt leave blue must of its original identity
His stone face when they make the joke about horizons having cards banned in every format. I lost it.
Im so glad they edited his camera shot in for that. Priceless.
That's the "I have no hand in that" face xD
Here's a wild thought: make White's card draw be Monarch.
It is a slow but consistent source of draw that requires you to maintain a good board state to control entirely while also creating a (usually) very fun sub-game. It can be fought over or shared between players, giving it a "fair" aspect that almost all white cards have. On top of that, I think that royalty and monarchies in magic are generally tied to white due to white being the color of order and rule.
Or just make white rhystic study
@@denisdionigidelgrande7961 Or white Mystic Remora. But seriously monarch as a standard White mechanic would be great.
I think it is cool idea but if it were all monarchy style cards for its draw the white control deck wouldn't work
Monarch is a mechanic tied to and flavored for multiplayer. I hope they make something like it for 1v1, but I don't think they should just make Monarch a 1v1 format mechanic.
Monarch is somewhat broken in 1v1 because it's a lot harder for your single opponent to take it from you, especially if they're a control deck or if your deck is built around protecting your monarchy. It is only fun & fair in commander because 3 other people can take it from you. In that respect it's a lot like the voting mechanic from the original conspiracy, which is also busted in 1v1.
"we want some colors to be stronger at some thing than the others"
*green viciously twerking in the background*
Cards shouldn't be able to everything except in green. Green has best creatures, best card draw in EDH, amazing "counterspells" (Heroic Intervention, Veil of Summer). Green has amazing removal (kill any permanent for 6, while other colors need to use the 7 mana colorless spells - Spine of Ish Sah, Scour from Existence, Meteor Golem, Unstable Obelisk). There is no reason for white not have more card draw based on either creature count, lifegain, or taxing effects (like Rhystic Study)
Green has been very pushed the last few sets but let's not pretend blue isn't the best color still lol.
Tyler Rowe I feel this. When Ari mentioned virtual card draw I started to visibly shake at the notion that virtual card draw is better than actually drawing cards.
@@andrewboyko8304 in many situations virtual card advantage is better than drawing cards, because (lets say in the case of Archon of Sun's Grace) you don't have to use resources to deploy the advantage, you just get the advantage from deploying your usual threats and answers.
@@Chuubii Green is my favorite color but is in no way the best at drawing cards lol don't get me wrong it's draw is incredibly strong but it still gets heavily outclassed by black and blue
Flicker effects, Stax, Equipment, Exiling, Reanimating, and a Sac philosophy that differs significantly from Black. There’s gotta be a way to unite these conventions. I believe in you, R&D!
I really don't understand why black gets the Exile it does. Like Vraska's contempt seems like it should be a white card. Black can destroy, white exile, and orzhov exile/or destroy with probably life loss or gain
Jack Pabich I think Black’s shtick is it can do most anything, just at a slightly higher mana cost, some creature Saccing, and/or some life pay. Vraska’s contempt fits that “extraneous cost” trend, as do Withering Boon and Gate to Phyrexia. You wanna do stuff the other colors do? You gotta be able to pay for it.
White on the other hand has extremely Mana efficient cards that instead of harming you, reimburse your opponents. Swords to Plowshares and Path To Exile are flagship White removal and all things being equal would be included in a BW deck before Vraska’s Contempt would be.
@@casketbase7750 Sure. I am mainly thinking about it's impact on Standard. And I wouldn't say that Contempt has a downside except maybe it's high cmc when it comes to eternal formats. And I think that it is fundamentally wrong for any color to be able to do everything. That's the entire point of the color pie. There are things (like card draw and creature interaction) that all colors should be able to do, but not one color should be able to do anything. Like how black has issues dealing with artifacts and enchantments
Jack Pabich Ah, okay. I mostly play Oathbreaker with friends, so that explains my skewed examples. Yeah, nonrotating formats have access to all historically good White cards, but Standard needs a continuous steady supply.
I genuinely enjoy the positivity. :)
Ari is such a poised person, and I feel he did an amazing job at addressing the matter (considering what he could or couldn't tell). Kudos!
32:50 "Four basic drawbacks for white removal"
You can apply those to drawing and get a very white draw.
1) Targeting restrictions -> *Target player with 2 or less cards in hand draws 3 cards*
-> *Reveal the top 4 cards of your library. Put all Soldiers in it into your hand*
2) Reversibility -> "When this comes into the battlefield, exile the top 7 cards of your library until this leaves the battlefield. You may play cards exiled with this"
3) Symetry -> "At the beggining of your upkeep, each player draws a card/ scrys 3" or better yet "Each player draws an amount of cards equal to 4 minus the cards they have in hand"
4) Compensation -> "Draw a card and create a 4/4 angel with flying. Then each opponent may create up to five 4/4 angels with flying. For each token created this way, you may draw a card"
I actually like that 'give token get card' variant of card draw. 'Lemme give you something I'm good at, to give me something I'm not' feels white
@@JO11190 That one I call "spreading democracy" or "troops for resources"
That's my second favorite after and my "feed the poor" one, which gives cards to those in need of them
I really like the Tempting Offer style for the 4/4 Token+Draw
wow thats a really cool idea
i also had the idea of reactionary card draw
"the giant wakes"
whenever a source or spell an opponent controls causes a permanent you control to leave the battlefield, draw a card.
"Did you not ask that about Nexus of Fate?"
In fairness, that was before Ari’s time, so it’s not like he’d have an answer.
@@keithwynn8390 yeah I think he was holding back reiterating for the 4th or 5th time that he joined the team very recently. This guy can take a lot of nonsense without losing it. It's commendable.
That comment was so damn awkward. It felt like The Professor felt left out in the interview and tried to butt in with a joke. Sometimes hosts hate not being in the spotlight and that is a big mistake in interviews
White has recently getting more "recruit" cards, creatures that can tutor others. That's certainly a better card advantage than the "virtual" one with tokens. But for "how we really should DRAW and still feel like being in white", I think we have good examples in Mentor of the Meek, Well of Lost Dreams, Dawn of Hope.
Those mechanics should be watched, replicated and improved. Cycling is another thing White is good at, and if Red gets Tectonic Reformation, White should get "creatures have cycling 2" or something, that help out some strategies while at it.
Cards that care about you not taking damage or maintaining a high life total in a turn to draw a card should feel fine as well, and other good ones could be "if you attack with 3 or more creatures, draw a card", "if you had a token enter the battlefield, draw a card at the end of the turn", "when a player casts a spell paying more mana than its cmc, draw a card", and even for removal-focused decks there could be a reverse-revolt effect "if an opponent had a permanent leave the battlefield, at the end of turn draw a card". Will of the Council and Council's Dillema are good ones to invest in as well.
But if the problem is the "draw a card" wording, there could be more effects like Board the Weatherlight in the color, those that look the top "N" cards and let you reveal one and put into your hand, or others with wording similar to Fact or Fiction, but letting each opponent choose one and giving you a slight advantage to get what you want
Smothering Tithe is also a good example of what white could do for card draw. Frankly, Rhystic Study (or a nerfed version thereof) feels like it’s right in white’s wheelhouse.
I think clues is also a good way to do card draw in white.
You could also do card draw in the way that Resplendent Angel makes tokens: at end step if you gained X life this turn, draw a card. Or even whenever you gain X life, draw a card. What is more white than being rewarded for gaining life?
Well said🦄
Does an artifact like Well of Lost Dreams still hold to the color pie the same way as Mentor of the Meek?
Tax effects like a rhysic study would fit well into white in my opinion. Mana tithe was printed so there is a precedent there as well
Eidolon of obstruction made it so any opponent trying to use a Planeswalker ability had to pay a colorless. White definitely needs more taxes and card draw that isn't defiant strike.
Yes!! dear God yes!! But but Wizards will never go it because because these sort of effects are deemed "unfun". I'll tell you what is unfun, dying to a Titan on turn three. I hate green so much!!!
I agree completely! smothering tithe is a great card and is just the affects that white needs!
Wizards has said multiple times future sight doesn't really count as Precedent.
@@brcienpartin5462 There's a difference between "precedent" and "This is common sense, it fits with the color flavor, it fits with the color pie, why hasn't it happened yet?"
"What does card draw look like in each color?"
Blue: I have knowledge
Green:I learn from the world and life around me
Red: My ideas come from a impulse of passion and discovery
Black: I manipulate others and things around me for my desire
White: *...Let me get uhh...*
Felipe Lima white: I pray for an answer
@@QuantumMechanic343 White: You gain 3 life. Take it or leave it lol
White is more like: oh you guys want to draw a bunch of cards or want to play spells? let me stop you from getting advantage. (alm's collector, aura of silence, rule of law) - Seems like white is not designed to get advantage by drawing much, more like its getting the advantage by denying the ressources of others
White is about society. There could be more cards like Mentor of the Meek. A symmetrical effect could be: "each player draws a cards for every creature they control."
White: Let me just, uh, exile everything
In the realm of Commander, I really like the idea of white being a tit-for-tat color. If you do X, I get Y.
Smothering Tithe did that perfectly.
Land Tax does that flavorfully, even if it does take an annoying amount of time to resolve physically.
Comeuppance is another example.
Yeah, Rhystic Study is a card that feels more white to me than it does blue. All the taxxing stuff just feels like a really white thing. Also would love to see an enchantment in white that reads something like "At the beginning of each opponent's end step, if you've lost no life this turn, draw a card." or something of the sort.
I think Keeper of the Accord in Commander Legends was a step in the right direction as well for EDH, although not so much for Modern (not playable) and Legacy (too slow). If you have more creatures than me, I get a creature. If you have more lands than me, I get a land. Every turn.
It was a really interesting interview but I have two massive issues with what was said. Token generation and card draw are NOT the same thing. Creating a token does not give me the possibility of drawing another card that I may need such as a removal spell or hitting my land drops. Also, mono-color decks should be a viable option for those of us who want to build them. In formats like commander, one of the colors should not be lacking access to key mechanics such as card draw and ramp. No color should just be a support color. Smothering Tithe was a step in the right direction for white. Right now, white needs card draw and there are plenty of ways to do so without breaking the color pie. And if you do not want the cards in standard, then just put them in non-standard legal products like the commander precons.
One way of looking at it could be that token generation is taking the place of what would be another card, so you can be that much more likely to draw an answer. Or: if your answers generate tokens, then you can have more answers and not worry so much about losing out on creatures.
Solution: White should be able to make token Plains. We saw token lands in the Mystery Boosters, white makes tokens, boom, let white make token Plains. Maybe a card like:
"Palace of Glass" 2W Sorcery: put a Palace token into play. It's an Enchantment Land - Plains.
@@a.velderrain8849 Even if it says token, this still feels very green
@@trunkulent Especially in commander, white still needs the card draw cause if token creatures are supposed to be the card draw for white, then white basically has to discard all the cards it drew because someone played a boardwipe
imo, the social contract really hinders white, as greens ramp is untouchable to things like mld, one of white's strengths, but artifact ramp is very vulnerable.
Hot take: Spells that cause creatures to fight are fine in green, but creatures with etb:fight should be strictly red.
That as a green mechanic takes away Green's dependence on having a creature already on burn and basically just turns the creature into a removal spell.
See: wicked wolf. It's very green in flavor but it feels very red when playing it.
Agreed but i see Wicked Wolf also like a black card, a Chupacabra n°2
Wow. This was spicy. You guys were definitely not going easy on him. He seems like a sweet soul who's trying his best. Which is all we can ask for as humans.
He's fairly new to the job, so I have some hope. The cards he put together in the brawl decks were pretty compelling. I am glad that Prof and Vince didn't go easy on him, and he did a decent job all the same.
Dude. Use. Commas.
Ari's calm and considered vibe is *so* White
considerate?
@@RichieDubbz no, considered.
@@hapijoel7569 maybe... My brain cant reconcile that sentence tho. Its telling me considered is past tense of consider and the pertaining adjective is considerate... But maybe it's a brain fart
I read it aloud. That helped. English is hard
@@RichieDubbz In this context, considered is an adjective and not a verb. Considerate is similar but has a slightly different meaning. If this was multiple choice SAT, considerate would be “less correct.”
Even if you don’t know a word exactly, you can always use context. Using the frame of the sentence helps to understand the words. Without a frame you can’t distinguish between the verb and adjective. This is exactly the skill that is tested for in high-level SAT reading.
20:36 An idea for white card draw that feels white to me:
Draw cards till you have as many cards as the opponent with the most cards in his hand.
White is about balance and fairness. Well, at least to me. So a way to balance out hand sizes would represent that to me.
It's a bit like a one time Land Tax for card draw.
Or balance without the rest of the text
I feel like everyone would draw and it would 6 mana
It's definitely something WotC should play with more, but it's a strong effect that couldn't be printed in lower rarities so it doesn't solves much.
It's like Red's Wheels effects - it's a nice addition, but it really didn't solve the problem by itself, reason why it got Impulse Draw.
em put please make it quad white
I think white should also get more Spirit of the Labyrinth effects. Unfortunately, blue, the color that’s best at drawing cards, is also the best at suppressing card draw.
That's an amazing video! Stellar quality! Designers insight on the game is always very very thoughtful and I really would love something like that for all five colors.
Yes!
They can ask the correct guy about nexus this time
I think a lot of the solution to the getting white back on track in Commander is by adding "For each opponent" to a lot of already staple cards. Raise the alarm, Anthem, Path to exile. I think you also can get a lot by making symmetry to already existing cards. Banishing Light, but one permanent for each player.
"You must be very busy then!" Gosh I love the intro.
In old school white is such a powerhouse with Swords, Disenchant, Balance and Serra Angel 💪 and of course Semite Healer to prevent the damage from those incredible Prodigal Sorcerers.
>Semite Healer
Oy vey!
Also, StP is a color pie break and white just can't have those, disenchant effects can be green too(the best disenchant is monoG IIRC), balance is way too powerful and Serra Angel is honestly nothing special these days. It's like they decided to deliberately shit all over everything that made white good, wtf
Hell yeah, Serra Angel forever!!!!!!!!!!
@@motherfucker42069 How to StP a pie break but Path isn't? Seems like the "single target removal with gift" that they are talking about.
@@johncreekpaum4998 A little lifegain for your opponent is a meaningless downside in modern magic. Path is also recognized as being undercosted though that doesn't make it a break.
@@shawndiaz7528 Right, StP is super powerful and cheap, but I don't see how it's a color break.
Absolutely fantastic interview and I hope to see further installations of getting the perspectives of the other advisors working at R&D. It's incredibly important for the player base, particularly those that identify strongly with given colors/mechanics, to understand the thought process and philosophy behind the different stages of card and set design at WotC. Nieh's talking points revealed alot of perspectives regarding white that I might have accepted and internalized over the years, but never actually had articulated myself or by others, which helps very much so in appreciating what exists in the past, and what to expect and interpret in the future. This type of community outreach and engagement is a tenent of transparency and community building I'm happy to see WotC is enthusiastic to explore. Thanks Professor and Kenobi for hosting it!
29:55
I love Ari's eyeroll there talking about how every format needed a card banned from MH1.
This was amazing. Having White as my favorite color, I think it is in good hands with this guy.
Of course White has a lot of shortcommings compared to other colors (especially in the card advantage space), but this guy knows it is not so simple to fix that and still make White cards.
Because, in the end of the day, if we didn't care about the colors and theis flavors, we would not care at these things and just play the color(s) that give us the most.
What I do believe is that White needs improvements on the controling aspects of the game. White needs better preemptive answers, and better answers that are competitively playable.
I mean, the flavor of Oblivion Ring effects is amazing, but when every relevant threat has an ETB ability or similar (like planeswalkers), the drawback of losing your removal effect is bigger than just getting a Doom Blade countered or a Lightning Bolt targetting a creature getting buffed out of killing range.
I think White needs better compensation-like removals that are actually fair for both players and/or restrictive targets that are not that restrictive. Declaration in Stone seems amazing for that kind of effect, it's a shame it's a sorcery. Cards with effects similar to Fatal Push could be White I believe, as Elspeth Conquers Death represents that kind of effect pretty well.
They just need to give us a little better White answers in the mana cost department (not this guy's job), the flavor and color identity are already abundant.
And I think White should get some worse-than-Blue conditional counterspells. Mana Tithe and Lapse of Certainty both feel very White, there is some design space to explore here.
And I also do believe lifegain mechanics should be explored more within White. As pure lifegain is pretty bad, rewards for doing that are a very nice thing to have, cards like the new Heliod, Ajani's Pridemate and Dawn of Hope are amazing at that.
20:03 "What is it [card draw] that feels White specifically? I can't answer that question right now."
"... right now" Okay, either Ari isn't sure about the best way to answer the question, or he KNOWS something's in the pipeline and can't talk about it. Could be a good thing either way.
I would guess it's the latter. It is no small secret that R&D is trying to figure out how to do card draw/advantage in a way that feels white.
@@Vian888 They would have been doing that for tens of years. They don't have an answer.
Basically he couldn't think of an answer. Because white is to card draw as red is to destroying enchantments. You ain't gonna get no good card draw.
But they don't want to admit that.
It was pretty clear that he knows something that he can't say.
@@NecromancyForKids That's some terrible logic. They have never done it so it means they'll never do it?
He speaks really nice and calming, rarely saw anyone talking like that.
"I am not very good with card names, I know what they do"-Remembers exactly the following names by a brief description of what they do:Cry of the carnarium, Light up the stage, Archon of sun's grace and Experimental Frenzy
Well he plays limited a lot and those are recent cards. I think he means older cards, or even supplemental cards. As although he figured out what the cards from the brawl deck were called it took him a second as they aren't something he probably sees often.
His first experience with Cry, Light, and Frenzy might actually have been playtests after they received their final names, especially since they all function well in Limited. Archon being a strong card in current Standard and seeing play at Worlds helps with that one. It’s not 100% or 0% at card names
He said he spends mad time st work looking up card names.
Only error I noticed was Hero of Precinct Six, he did fine
This is great. Can we do this for the other four colors? That would make a great series :)
"I'm the Green Mana Guru. Whenever someone thinks Green is overpowed, I magically appear."
"That must keep you pretty busy."
"this is mono blue tron, white, come back!" is this some kind of modern joke that I'm too pauper to understand?
This is probably my favorite Dies to Removal: thoughtful insights, sharp questions, top-end level comedy and a great guest that answers with sincerity, focus and engagement.
I'm happy to hear Ari speak at length about respecting emotional favor and feel. I think it is pretty obvious to say that you shouldn't "make divination white", but I love the argument that flavor and feel are equally important in why that is wrong.
I had a thought while watching this. In the spirit of Ghostly Prison and Norn's Annex- a card in white (enchantment, creature, colored artifact, whatever) that states "whenever a creature attacks you, that creature's controller must pay (1). If they don't, you draw a card." Instead of stopping the attack, it forces them to pay a toll, one way or another.
every time a bell rings, a serra angel gets it's wings~
Fun fact: There is no angel in magic without flying. Even Fallen Angel. :D
@@Robert-vk7je whats about Gabriel angelfire who manually may get flying?
Listening to Ari is so interesting and just a pleasure. Calm, collected thoughts and insights. Fantastic!
30:42 makes me wonder if there's bad blood in r&d when it comes to nexus
I mean wizards in general hate to focus on cards that have damaged formats, like oko and nexus was as they have stated in the past wasn't meant to be constructed all star it just was a perfect storm with wildness reclamation.
It was deliberately pushed to increase Buy a Box sales, there's not much they can or worth commenting on
i like very much how Ari takes every question and tries to give a answer properly to the philosophy of white color and also make us think about the "how white wizard role playing should be", great video! thanks!
I think white cards should have options for slightly more mana. You see it in cleansing nova. Imagine if prince charming was the direction white was going. Imagine if hushbringer stated "choose one: etbs are shut off, ltbs are shut off, or players can't cast spells from their graveyard." I think instead of pushing cards like hushbringer simply as a stronger edition of Tocatli honour guard. I think that versatility would help the color along with providing yourself a mechanic that is relevant for your opponents while avoiding nonbo's on your end.
White's answers are already very versatile. Cards that combat a specific thing don't make them less so.
Chuckled when i noticed the plains had not been returned to the shelf for the interview
This was one of the most informative video's you've done Professor and that's saying a LOT, your videos are always overloaded with info and insight. I'm looking forward to more of these! Oh, and more Office Hours videos... please, please!
To quote a friend of mine: "This is honestly one of the best pieces of MTG related content I have been able to digest in a while." and I cannot agree more!
Really appreciate the in-depth look and hope you finish the color cycle
The first championship game in 1996, the winning deck was monowhite weenies.
White needs a unique card draw like Ari said, same as how red got a special version.
My suggestions are drawing from bottom, opponent cutting deck and you add card to hand from where they seperated, reveal 2 or more cards to opponent from deck and they put one in your hand, put 2 or more cards from deck facedown and pick one at random, a form of suspend card draw were you put card from deck aside with a time counter. or maybe shuffle graveyard an draw from graveyard.
I'd like a Draw effect that rewards White being defensive. An effect like: "Draw a card on your next upkeep if you took no damage last turn", kinda like how Mishra's Bauble works.
Or similar, "Draw a Card if your OPPONENT did not lose life"
Your opponent not losing life is so easy to control that it isn't even fun. Control would just wait and wait.
@@fernandobanda5734 as opposed to how control plays now where it's all aggressive?
@@InRealTime769 I mean it's too free, it's barely a condition. You might as well have straight draw.
They have been fixing colors lately with a few "flavor acceptable" options that keep it inside the pie, because the pie is about the flavor in the end, Like they have been pushing "fight" as a green mechanic to emulate Creature removal but it is still very green in the fact that the creature is being removed by brute force. Red did the same with the "remove from the top of the library and you can play it this turn" that feels pretty red in its volatility and burn-trough-resources way, but came to fix the "run out of fuel" issue with red. So for White I believe Protection from X is the way to go, White is a color that likes both attacking (think Mentor, exalted, battlecry, battalion, that are mostly White) and defending (Protection from color, prevent damage, gain life, and other defensive tactics) Protection gives advantage both ways and feels very white. But protection mostly discontinued.
Can we talk about how White is a strictly worse version of Green? Green does Lifegain, Tokens, Removal, Tax Effects, Small Creatures with good abilities, and can also draw cards and ramp.
Exactly, why play white when green is so much better?
I'm unfamiliar with green taxing effects? Do you have any examples?
@@jamesloucka1952
Sure. Although maybe I misspoke. I meant stax type effects and not actual mana tax effects. I can't think of any of those in green. But Collector Ouphe, Root Maze, and Hall of Gemstone all strike me as cards that could be white.
Ari is very articulate! I'm a fan of clarity in speech, thank you for being educated Ari.
Was genuinely surprised at how insightful this episode was! Really makes me hopeful that my favourite colour can be redeemed in commander. Or maybe that’s just the White Mage in me :)
I never realized that White was so gentle and considerate. Thank you, Ari!
Freaking missed these! Glad to hear a new Dies to Removal!!!!
Really enjoyed this. I love when you're able to spend time talking with R&D, and I'd been missing Dies to Removal, also. Great episode!
"White come back!" for a moment I thought I was watching a video about south africa farmers.
The thing I really enjoy about the interview style here is that y'all are actually working with Ari. Unlike many journalistic interviews where where those interviewing are trying to contort answers to fit their narrative or rile up the interviewee, Vince and Brian are actually trying to converse and understand by paraphrasing and building upon statements to clear up ambiguity rather than create it. It just lead to a really nice listening experience.
"The Color Pie is important."
Noises of Green laughing in the Background.
That was awesome, what a well spoken gentleman! Wizards please do more interviews!
every colour should be capable to be played on its own and competitively.
esp EDH
@@Cronos804 what? i didnt understand what you said.
Try Heliod Ballista in cEDH
Meh, Teshar Combo I see as more consistent
Heliod is now a very competitive edh deck if built correctly
@@Tig3rV3nom no he's not. He's ok he's not good. He's better in something like zur
Ari is an absolute pleasure to listen to. He should have his own show. I would subscribe immediately.
35:12 is a little rough out of context lol
This was one of the most interesting mtg conversations I’ve had the pleasure of listening to. I love hearing about the color pie and how it maps onto human and animal psychology. Please do one of these interviews with a color pie representative from each of the colors! Hell, being the whole council!
"The color pie is important." Green says "hi."
I always thought green's opposite was white (probably weird, but in my mind white is order/law and green is nature/all that hippie jazz.).... so in that sense, if Green is good at everything, it would make sense its opposite color would be good at nothing.
@@Alino- good point
I absolutely love this video! Big well done to Vince and Brian for sitting down with Ari and having such an intellectual and interesting look at the behind the scenes of such important aspects of magic. Would absolutely love to see dies to removal interview more reps for the council of colours. Keep up the good work guys ♥️
"Healing salve is the white version of ancestral recall" 😂
Yeah of course
It's the "3 for 1" cycle:
Healing Salve - Heal 3
Ancestral Call - Draw 3
Dark Ritual - 3 Black Mana
Lightning Bolt - 3 Damage
Giant Growth - +3/+3
Of course their power levels are *wildly* out of proportion, but that was the original vision.
@@Hornswroggle Yeah, Ancestral is stupidly op. Dark Ritual is awesome. Lightning Bolt is great. Giant Growth is ok. Healing Salve is....... a card.
Ari Nieh is really cool and she answered all those questions really well. It's fascinating to hear her talk about the process of vision/exploratory design.
I think the center of White's problem is that Wizards is acutely aware of its identity, and therefore reticent to deviate from it.
Maybe the real issue is that they are so wishy-washy with the identity of the other colors. They obviously have no clue what the identity of green is- unless green's identity is to be every color...
For real, you can't name ONE thing green doesn't have access to at this point. Card draw, card selection, every kind of ramp, color fixing, removal, direct damage effects, counterspell interaction (it's rare, but it's there), go wide, go tall, graveyard recursion, clones, etc. etc. etc.
I think the green and blue members of the council of colors are hooking up. Their babies are wreaking havoc.
Ari's POV in a nutshell during the video:
Aesthetics
Prof and Kenobi's POV in a nutshell during the video:
Technical power
I think they get at the core of what's wrong with white: it smacks itself in the face all the time. It has great removal and board wipes. But it wants a big, wide board or even voltron strategies. Neither of which are helped by its other half. Most "taxing" cards/hate-bears are a double edged sword. Most other colors hate bears are one sided, screwing your opponents. White just says "All graveyards are exiled," and "all ETB and death triggers don't work". It essentially makes you build around not having any mechanics your deck is trying to stop and also fill your deck with silver bullet answers that you might not even see in a game.
Every other color additionally has card advantage as well as powerful flavor bonuses. Black has access to graveyards like its an extra hand, as well as use life as a resource even though lifegain is mostly white. Blue has the highest synergy with artifacts and vice versa. Green has a massive ability to gain mana and using that mana each turn to generate even more creatures than white wants. Red has been getting its exile the top of your deck, which is practically a more powerful scry. Whites got "If you cast a creature and it deal combat damage THEN you may draw a single card".
Can we get a “if you gained 3 or more life last Turn draw a card?” Or “if you would gain life you may add colourless mana equal to the amount of life you would have gained” type stuff? Or maybe a card called humble that removes +1/+1 counters to draw cards? Everything needs to ramp and draw cards, why don’t we want white doing this?
I mean, everyone craps on Dawn of Hope but it's really easy to draw cards off of it in White. White has tons of ways of gaining life, even on your opponent's turns, so Dawn should be getting triggered pretty often.
Dawn of Hope with Smothering Tithe is a hard to remove card draw engine in a lot of games I've played.
@jvalex18 I think White is going to be the "trigger - pay 2 to draw" type of card draw. Dawn of Hope and Mentor of the Meek both cost to draw after a trigger, but both are really easy to trigger for White.
I'd love to see another Enchantment like Dawn coming. Especially since Dawn is such a powerhouse in my Alela deck.
too conditional
not all decks gain life or use +1+1 counters
therefor it really doesn't solve any issues
Well done on all counts. While tension was tangible, you all handled it with grace. Some ideas for white card draw, just because it's there:
Soul's Rest
Enchantment 2W
At the beginning of your upkeep, if you gained 3 or more life since your last upkeep, draw a card.
Basically, make card draw dependent on doing other "white" things. For instance, Ephara, God of the Polis, integrates the blink mechanic with card draw. The blink mechanic is something both colors can do, but that's a prime example of a card draw spell that could be specifically white.
Maybe a card that names exile as the trigger mechanic: "Whenever you exile a nonland permanent an opponent controls, draw a card"
Or a mentor of the meek effect: "Whenever a white creature with power 2 or less enters the battlefield under your control, draw a card"
Or damage prevention: "Prevent all damage target permanent would deal this turn, draw that many cards."
These are ideas. That is all.
How many of those chairs do you have?
convoke feels like the answer. convoke could be used for ramp and could print cards that draw cards based on creatures convoked. it's also a multi set mechanic.
Great conversation!
Since now I didn't even know Ari existed. After this, he's my spirit animal.
All around great interview, allthough I would have loved to see Vince pick Ari's brain on whether he believes Rhystic Study should/could be a white card
Unfortunately, that question was not allowed.
@@TolarianCommunityCollege Makes sense, had already considered that was the case. Nevertheless would have been interesting to hear his thoughts on the matter.
@@TolarianCommunityCollege makes me wonder if a card like that is already in the works.
Whenever a player (probably should say opponent) gains life that player pays one or you draw a card. Seems very white and Rhystic Study for white to me although could also be insanely broken for white. Or maybe reverse it whenever a player draws a card you gain 2 life unless that player pays one. The second one is a lot more balanced and still fits the white theme.
Here's an example of white card draw on flavor that can be a tax/prayer/rite/penance/grace/etc.:
Basically make the cmc 1-2 more than a traditional blue draw, but the draw wont happen immediately (ie. Waiting for the prayer to be answered). Delay it so that when X happens draw a card (ei. on your next draw step draw 2...or after you next opponents end step.
silent prayer 2W enchantment. when cardname ETB or at your upkeep choose a) gain 2 life b) sac cardname and draw 2 cards
(reminds me of quiet disrepair)
gives lifegain as natural hate against aggro and burn. you sit down to pray and awake enlightend when you finish. if the opponent has an answer you get literally punished for being greedy. neutral with destructive revelry. could be a new enchantment subtype prayer. to be the opposite of curses (benevolent and temporary)
WOW!! He just announced a new set!! Equestria!! A block set just beyond the periphery. Very exciting. I wonder if they wanted to divulge this through him or he let it slip.
A PLANE OF HORSES AND HORSEFOLK AND HORSEKIN!!!! HORESMANSHIP IS COMING BACK PEOPLE!!!!!
Actually he just used the code name for that set. We actually have a significant number of code names for upcoming sets including: “Equestrian”, “Fencing”, “Golf”, “hockey”, “Ice skating”, and “Judo”. These were known names which is why nobody there acted with any surprise when he mentioned it.
Equestrian is actually the code name for the set after zendikar, coming next January and the name is based on all of the future sets being code named after sports. Still would be cool to see some of those old portal cards come back tho :)
Future sets who's names have not been released are currently given sports names in Alphabetical order. Starting with Throne of Eldraine (Archery), Equestrian is the codename for the set after Zendikar Rising (Diving), we know of the codenames (and only the codenames) of the sets from from Equestrian through Judo.
Can't wait to see horse Jace. Old horse-face Jace. 🐎 centaur Jace coming soon.
What a wonderful talk, very insightful and well spoken. I think it gave great perspective into the color pie and the meta game we all play. As a pretty much STRICTLY commander player I agree with most of the things said (in white being better in other formats and as a support color)... but also I look at green... what I would say is the antithesis of white.
Green does it all. It does all of these “core values of magic” very well. White DOES need some support for evergreen formats to make it up to par with other colors.
Enchantment: whenever you gain one or more life, an opponent may pay 1 or you draw a card
WotC: 6WWWW
Wait is that an actual card?
Thraben inspector was a really good example of how card draw can work in white. It is not immediate, but stored for later and taxes. The storage is almost counter to reds impulsive card draw
Ari directly said White's key flaw: It wants to play fair Magic, and is the kindest of the colors.
All the other colors are allowed to express self-interest in ways white cannot. Which is a challenge in a game about combat and battle and winning at any cost.
The problem is exactly that a lot of White it about being fair and balanced. And in any game, fair and balanced is bad.
Honestly, White being "fair" if it was the brutally enforced, totalitarian implementation of oppressive laws would make it competitive. Get rid of White's mercy. Give them cards emphasizing back breaking tax, control, and protection effects.
@@kalixascsi66 It's an idea, but as they mentioned in the video, taxes are increasingly viewed as "not fun" ways to play Magic, especially for new and casual players (reminder that there is no wrong way to play MtG if everyone has similar expectations).
I don't think that really goes anywhere. Cards like Declaration in Stone, Banishing Light, Day of Judgment and Thalia have a distinct "fair" feeling without being bad cards in the slightest. And note that I picked cards with acceptable power. If we're gonna go crazy, Swords to Plowshares and Balance say hi.
I think that one mechanic that really is overlooked in white is things like Land Tax. It doesn't allow you to surpass, but you can keep up. Something like that where you can draw an additional card if someone has more cards than you, or something that hardens the rules like aven mind censure is another route that white can go but is rarely taken advantage of.
Kinda tired of them changing the goalposts on him.
"Let's talk about Standard?" "What about Healing Salve?" "Well then why does white suck in EDH?" Like geez, he was trying to address EDH before all of this...
#WhiteIsAndNeedsJustice
Another suggestion is with another meta-mechanic for white: conditional catch-up search. If each opponent has more than you do on the battlefield, search for a land or at least a plains, reveal it and put it into the battlefield if the opponent has 2 or more lands, otherwise, put it into your hand, and shuffle.
Thos condition is basically the combination of the conditions of Mangara, the Diplomat in C21, and Gift of Estates in Commander 14.
#WhiteIsAndNeedsJustice
"There are some game actions and objects that are essential to the game"
Card draw seems pretty essential to the game.
"We won't just put Diviniation in White"
But Cryptic Command can be put into Green. Oh c'mon. >.>
He agreed that card draw is essential to the game in the same way creature removal is.
except it was not at all like cryptic command. It couldn't counter any threats, it could only protect your threats which is a very green thing to do. It also couldn't tap down or bounce anything.
Also he freely admitted that white should get some way of drawing cards, he just didn't exactly know how they were going to do it just yet. That's one point where the discussions are good though since there are a lot of good ideas floating around atm.
White Card Draw:
Use enchantments to exile from top of deck and allow play from the enchantment. Base the exile around a tax effect, gaining life, or smaller creatures. Oila. Fun.
That kinda feel black
Also, this is one of the best opening skits.
As someone having played a mono-white EDH deck for a few years, planeswalkers are what I’ve been playing and how I keep advantage. Similar to the Djeru deck Prof just did a video on. Cards for this have come for this strategy for white over several sets, Call the Gatewatch, Djeru with Eyes Open, Ignite the Beacon, and Arena Rector to get to planeswalkers, and then a few other cards like Grateful Apparition and Oath of Gideon that help power them up. I think that I’d love to see more of White’s advantage go in this direction and have things being expanded with this strategy.
"gonna get a lot of high fives for that" made me genuinely laught
This was a really neat episode. Big thanks to everyone!
Blue: Divination
Black: Night's Whisper
Green: Harmonize
Red: Light Up the Stage
White: Nothing. Why can't white at least get a draw 2/gain 2 life spell?
Also, coming from a Commander perspective: yes, white can gain virtual card advantage, but getting a 2/2 is so much worse than drawing a card in a multiplayer format. And if Commander is your most popular format, you really should try and balance for that at least a little bit.
To be fair harmonize breaks the color pie
@@gabriellecureux5528 harmonize came in a set that was specifically designed to break the color pie though. time spiral block was the biggest mistake in magic bar none imo
@@dickjohnson8983 I shall laugh at you in Damnation.
Something I didn't know until I looked it up: Mr. Nieh was a winner of the Great Designer Search. He presented himself in a very composed way, despite some of the sillier behavior from our dear hosts.
I especially liked his note about the metric of "how likely is this card to make my opponent quit Magic forever." Commander in particular is often based around that metric.