Why So Many Magic: The Gathering Cards Are Getting Banned | Dies To Removal Episode 26
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- Опубліковано 23 вер 2024
- Did you miss the last episode? Watch The Future Of Magic: The Gathering Formats: Modern VS Pioneer here: • Dies To Removal Episod...
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Music Courtesy Of:
"Vintage Education" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0
creativecommons...
UPDATE: This is the last of the Dies To Removal that were filmed "In The Before Times" and with the current crisis, it may be SOME TIME before I can fly Vince back out to film more. Are people okay with some "Social Distancing" episodes of Dies To Removal in the meantime? In other words, some "tele-conference" filmed episodes. Would you still watch? What topics would you be interested in?
Tolarian Community College i would watch!!!
Of course I'm Interested!
This is my favourite Magic-related series and I would watch it regardless of the format.
Would definitely watch regardless of format enjoy hearing you discuss things with one another
I’ll watch everything ❤️
All I’ve got is “We didn’t playtest this at all.”
Oh I don’t need anymore standard decks.
😂🤣😂🤣
Joseph S. That line slayed me. Hahaha!
So good 😊
That was probably the loudest I've ever laughed while watching the Professor
Wow
I have that game. It's great, although it makes no sense whatsoever.
"I don't need any more Standard decks." Ha. Also that game is real and it's fun
That was a fucking brutal response.
"Do you have any trades?"
Expects cards. Pulls out entire decks. WHO DOES THAT!
I mean hey 90% of singles are worthless so gotta through one Value
I imagine very experienced players with old, large collections might? I dunno. Maybe it was just a joke and intended to throw shade at certain archetypes and such 🤷♀️
@@sammysammyson This can happen but it's indeed extremely rare. I have seen a burn deck be exchanged for an elves deck, both modern, and then some cards to make the value equal. Then again, I saw that only once.
In my early years of magic, I traded a kitchen table eldrazi deck for a kitchen table izzet deck.
My commander group does this keep in mind we are high power kitchen table.
"The only thing I've got is 'We Didn't Playtest This at All'"
"Oh, I don't need any more standard decks"
Not sure if funny or sad.. but definitely hilarious!
'not sure if funny... but definitely hilarious'?
well, that's definitely sad...
Depressing and hilarious all at once. I call it Depraious.
Hilarious means funny, you genius.
Constant bans killed Pioneer in my community. I work at an LGS and soooo many people were excited to build when Pioneer was announced. Well, as opposed to what would have happened if there was a preemptive banlist, the weekly bans terrified the people trying to build decks and they all eventually quit, saying they'd wait until the ban lists stopped. Well, they kept going so long that the hype died down and all except 1 or 2 players decided that the risk of building a deck and getting a key card banned so quickly wasn't worth it, and chose to simply play the formats they already participated in and forget about pioneer.
My friends and I actually also built a lot of decks... on Cockatrice. Nobody was willing to invest for real in what was obviously a changing format. I bought a cheap red deck for Magic Online (because who's going to ban that?) knowing it was still a risk. I don't know why people were so eager to buy into it when Wizards was very clear about it being a test.
Wotc really should just say there’s no ban list in pioneer whatsoever and let’s see how people life that.
@@vinnythewebsurfer I highly disagree with the concept of "This is good enough because it could be worse" and I think that attitude is what ends up allowing issues to run rampant.
Dylan Kelly did I say it was good enough? All I will actually say is that by the way prof and others talk about it all, there’s this obvious perfect solution that everyone else thinks they know will work expect Wotc. That there was a correct way to cater pioneer now that were living in hindsight
@@vinnythewebsurfer My bad, I misunderstood. Yes, I do agree it's way more complicated that we know, but I don't think the ideas people have been having are entirely wrong and wouldn't potentially be better. But yes, there are no easy, perfect solutions to these things.
Professor sitting alone with a bunch of empty tables is honestly a heartbreaking image :(
I was beyond upset that night.
This reminds me of FNMTG at my LGS, everyone seems to play EDH and this one fellow shows up each week and asks if anyone has any modern decks to play, no one does. I feel bad for this fellow. I remember also, before I moved, there was 2 players at my old LGS who had BEEFY modern decks and they would play against each other because no one else could match them, like 5 minute matches.
I was about to say the same thing. Unfortunately, I can relate :(
The only thing that seems to fire in my local LGS' anymore is Commander. The FNM's in all but 1 of 5 stores are now Standard Draft and EDH. Pioneer and Modern run in a couple stores on the weekend with 8-12 people, but if you're looking for constructed Standard anywhere you are mostly out of luck.
@@TolarianCommunityCollege sadly a very similar story has happened to 6-9 stores within an hour of me. cant fire any events, only thing that gets people is commander in pods of 4
Mark Rosewater once described the perceived “power creep” as synonymous with “Escher’s Stairway”. They would lower the power in some areas while increasing power in another (ex. reprinting single-target Lightning Bolt in standard, not printing mass-removal Wrath of God).
But now there is legitimate power creep across the board, which causes more frequent bans, more chase cards, more expensive decks, and a bigger financial loss to those players if their deck is banned.
MaRo has been walking upside down on Esher's stairway for years LOL
Sure, powercreep is real, and more powerful cards are being printed. Yes, that means more cards are being banned.
My question to you is: remember Ixalan? Ixalan was low-powered. Ixalan was safe. Ixalan was also... extremely boring, and a disappointing set to most.
Now, when I open a pack, I know with greater certainty that I'm going to find a card that I'm going to be able to use. You know, actually put in a deck, play with, and not just put into a box somewhere. That was not the case with Ixalan.
Aren't the upsides of powercreep, in general, worth the downsides? Magic has existed for a long time, and exploring new design space, and making new archetypes, without overpowering existing cards, just becomes more and more difficult.
@MAXIMILIANO SCHUDECK Just for the record: relevance in standard is not a measure on how to evaluate cards. If a standard format is low powered, any card will do. It's entirely relative. In the land of the blinds, one-eye is king.
Mainly, 'extremely appropriate' is factually wrong. Wizards themselves wrote articles on how ixalan had a lower powerlevel compared to all surrounding sets, and, apparently, had a game design decision behind it; the game was perceived too difficult/high complexity for new players, and as a result, more vanillas and overall simpler cards were printed. (As an anecdote: cards with different power and toughness were apparently too complex. Ixalan has a greater number of cards with equal power and toughness than most sets.)
This all caused Ixalan to be, for most established players, to be both a letdown in terms of environments (it 'felt like a core set') and long-term worth.
That all doesn't mean Ixalan wasn't a fun set, I generally have a good memory of it. But it's clear to me why they 'don't want to make another ixalan'.
It’s all an inevitability. What’s Wotc suppose to do? Reprint and remake the same bulk of cards that exist and never try to push power levels ever again? Should we just go back to creatures being bad?
Chris Thorn Urza’s saga happened. Mirrodin happened. How come I don’t hear people saying these were mistakes but somehow everyone from Eldraine to Modern horizons nowadays are bad and worse than ever before?
"Modern Merfolk?"
"No."
Ded.
Big oof
Unpopular opinion:
STOP MAKING GOOD 3 CMC OR LESS PLANESWALKERS.
I think you can make good 3mana walkers, they just have to be narrow. M20 Sorin is a good walker, but only if you're playing Vampire tribal. WAR Teferi, on the other hand...
Kmatt WAR Teferi is very narrow, he’s only good if you happen to be in blue and white /s
these planeswalkers wouldn't be a problem either if they didn't have all this bullshit creature removal right on the fucking card.
How am I suppose to attack these planeswalkers when the planeswalkers can defend themselves?
@@pipsdontlie3031 3eferi isn't narrow, it's tooo powerful as a card that's supposed to rein in reactive playstyles
pnyhmsmx My comment was clearly sarcastic and implying that if you are in teferi’s colours you should play him.
These are my favorite thing. Since the nation is isolated, these conversations are literally the most entertaining content that I consume. Love them! Keep them coming!
Also, I might not always remember to like the video, but I SHARE most of your videos in my discord with close to 200 folks in it centered around commander. They probably already watch you, but if they don't, they'll see it in another place!
"what the hell is a rampaging ferocidon?" my reaction exactly
The card i waited forever to be unbanned
Because it never should've been banned in first place >[
They were scared of mono red domination.
So the destroy one of the best cards in monored haste dinos
Which never got to shine and i was SO annoyed.
Rawr.
@@feliciaamore1105 There was a video where someone said that Rampaging Ferocidon died for the sins of Hazoret. Because they can't ban a god, right?
@@BAAWAKnight They really should have unbanned it as soon as Kaladesh+Amonkhet rotated. It was right to ban it when they did, but it had no reason to stay banned for so long as all of the Hazored key pieces were gone and dinosaurs would have made good use of it.
Rampaging Ferocidon was basically a sideboard answer that shutdown answers to red, tokens and life gain. It was banned when they saw they'd just be replacing Energy with RDW.
Didn't it also have an incidental infinite that ended in game draws?
Since Hasbro took over, they have had wotc push power levels into stratosphere to sell packs, started selling "singles" for approximately market value(alt art walkers, lairs), and released the ~$30 collector's packs. This is executives trying to raise numbers and profit for shareholders, and some creative devs trying and failing to stop a forest fire.
Hazbro will likely burn MTG to the ground and them blame RnD for it when they are trying to fix everything
Arena is also killing paper magic. The new players they care about are strictly through that platform and it's sad but a lot of those players sliimly don't understand how to play paper magic because arena does a lot of it for them. So essentially old ,dedicated players don't matter wotc cause they want new players (money from expanding sources ).
Odd Job, I honestly think this is going to come back and get them. The online community is fickle. Once the new shiny thing comes along they will leave. If they neglect paper to much they might not be able to recover.
Friend, I hate to say this but Hasbro has owned WOTC since September 1999, it is not them to blame as much as it is actually the company itself.
@@ValariaxSword i really hope so
Releasing pushed cards, letting them dominate and wreck the format for a while, and banning them when the new set with pushed cards comes out and pack sales fall. Guess the tcg: Magic the Gathering, or Yu-Gi-Oh?
I came here to see if anyone made this exact comparison. It's been years since they slaughtered my deck out of play, that ran older cards, not from new sets.
I dropped Yu-Gi-Oh then...and with LGS's not firing modern, I wonder how many are doing the same with Magic now.
Ironically, it kinda feels like Magic and YGO switched roles in 2019. MtG: the most bans after the infamous Combo Winter due to incredibly pushed cards and sets, YGO: very conservative yet effective banlists which kept the main decks in contention whilst trying to include other decks (even if it failed in that aspect because the new decks weren't pushed enough)
@@stephenbowes2187 The only ban I didnt like recently was ABC Dragon Buster, but that is cause the massive rule change would make it too powerful, and it was only limited instead of blanket banned like with MTG. Still fully playable and very good, just kept in check with the limitation
OH PLZ NO. EXACTLY REASON WHY I ABANDONED YUGIOH
@@720pchannel Sonic X Yu-Gi-Oh! Go through your half your deck in one turn? NOT a problem!
Power creep has never been what got me in the seat for standard. It has always been the intrigue of interesting worlds and interesting mechanics. Its the synergy of cards on a basic level. Not the synergy between a few cards and deck formats. I played innistrad because the horror theme was awesome. I played ravnica because I wanted to play my guild till I died. I played khans because I though the tribes and triple color playability was amazing. I was so excited for guilds for example because the new guild mechanics were back and I could come support a guild. I miss the full triple set world blocks. Even theros was cool because of the theme.
Agreed. At this point I would be happy with double world sets.
Cards never got me hyped, well balanced formats with T1 decks in the whole midrange-aggro-control triangle, think Standards with Khans block got me hyped. Formats are so ill balanced and unstable (due to bans) I have no interest in playing.
you and i are together my friend, but we are still a minority.
...I only do Commander and Brawl decks with specific sets in mind. Like a Bant Theros enchantment deck or a BW vampire kor Zendikar deck. I hate when people do Commander decks from cards with absolutly nothing in common just because of combos or power levels. For me the worlds of Magic is the best thing of the game. People should at least have a simple theme like artifacts or something when making decks specially for formats that aren't that competitive. So I get you.
Yeah. I'm new to the game and one of the things that irritates me is the over abundance of return sets. I want a standard with a 3 set return block and the rest be new places. It feels like we're on a hamper wheel not an epic adventure
I miss playing Magic cards with actual people. I really am not enjoying playing Magic cards over the computer.
Have you tried out playing paper magic over webcam? Though it's def not comparable, it's something to scratch that itch.
Same :(
Same, I need social interaction
I find that everyone I play against online is far too competitive. It's not really fun to face a mish-mash deck whose only purpose is WIN and not be thematic or interesting in any way heh
Same :(
When you make a product specifically for 1 format (hogaak) and then it gets banned from that format, you're clearly not doing your homework :(
My thoughts exactly. Hogaak getting banned was the moment WotC became a lulcow to me that didn't understand any format but draft.
Their point was the would rather push the envelope too hard and make an impact rather than not make an impact at all. So the would rather print cards which had the chance of being banned rather than just release a set where no cards where useful. So there was a philosophy and thought process behind. Now I don't believe it is healthily for an eternal format to have new decks every 3 month that is for standard. Nor do I think MH was designed correctly since it should had have more answer instead of threats. Modern has plenty of threats but lack free answers like FoW, daze and Snuff Out allowing for tempo play. Modern is right now opponent is tap out? Ok then I can combo off and likely win.
I think the Faithless Looting ban prior to Hogaak was the saddest.
@@UltimatePokemonFan75 Wizards killed Looting way too late after other decks abused it while pretending MH didn't destroy Modern
not incompetence as much as it is greed and trolling
"I forgot Brawl was a format."
You and everyone, Prof.
WotC: come on, we made brawl precons!
Players: are you talking about those incomplete commander precons?
This was recorded pre-Ikoria spoilers - so is hilarious when they are talking about power creep - I'm like 'you ain't seen nothing yet bro'
What if I told you we were printing every good old common, but with cycling?
@@Kumjira That was a special case due to specific rules interactions with commander. It is not an indication of overall powerlevel of the set.
They clearly called Ikoria before Ikoria's power level became apparent... we all knew that Wizards is not showing signs of pumping the brakes after 2019 coming into this year.
not all 2019 was bad. IMO pre war of the spark was one of the best standards i have ever experienced : mono white, mono red, mono blue, sultai explore, izzet phoenix, mardu aristocrats, bant reclamation, esper control, esper hero . ALL of these were top tier decks
True, but 2019 was entertaining because of the salt for someone like me who doesn't play the game anymore.
It’s such an exaggeration though. None of these sets did damage to mtg like back in the day when Mirrodin happened or Urza saga, sets that by today’s players, are beloved and yet they led
To so many banning and people leaving the game because of degenerate decks like affinity and the Replenish decks n
@@vinnythewebsurfer I think war was every bit as bad as mirrodin, obviously not at the lvl of saga or ice age but still pretty high up there. I know of 3 people who left the game because of war
"We didn't play test this at all!"
"Oh, I don't need any more standard decks."
LMFAO!
"Do you think they're pushing cards willing to ban them later"
*looks at fiend artisan*
Idk fam idk
TempestDacine i see fiend artisan and another pushed simic card i once liked the colourcombo. By now im kinda fed up with all the goodies it gets
@@noehonegger4624 Same. I started the game with simic and sultai was my 2nd color combo. I used to stay in that comfort zone so much but after a while of experimenting with different colors I started to realize the other colors weren't inherently worse (like it seemed as if white only ever made stuff like 2 1/1s for 3), they just got a lot less love from wizards.
Mr_Dragon Azorius Guild is the best guild, change my mind.
2019 was a perfect argument for Pithing Needle in Standard.
2019 was perfect for red elemental blast to return to Standard
Lol they don't even let you use diet pithing needle in brawl.
would have been perfect in war of the spark given how many PWs had static abilities that wouldn't get needled out.
Diet needle is a kill for card 8.
@@slimyfister Well duh. Not being able to cast your commander isn't fun.
Null Rod for planeswalkers would fix that.
"Brexit???"
Brexit has a podcast??
@@Just_Pele Brexit? More like pretty dece!
Damn you got over half a million subs now!?
I remember subbing to you waaay back when you had like 10k.
I think it was one of ur vids about what sleeves to buy :D
Congratz man!
cheers, friend!
Same...he was such a tiny channel when i subbed
That picture with Prof sitting alone was so upsetting. I can't imagine how soul crushing that was.
I was beyond bummed out.
It's one of the reasons I'd love to have Pioneer and Modern on Arena. I don't want those formats to die.
Honestly up until 2019 I never expected power creep to be a big problem in magic.
To me it was a proud comparasion to a lot of games that magic had such a flat power curve over time. Now I am worried the next few years will go the route of many other games where every new release obsoletes just a tonne of earlier product that used to be meta.
Power creep has been a thing for 20 years+ mate:)
@@asburycollins9182 Honestly not really. Hell, if anything the power level crashed to rock bottom for 5+ years after the original dual lands and power 9 left the game. Nothing ever even came close to those levels of broken again.
@@asburycollins9182 Claiming the power push of 2019 has been like anything else in the last decade of magic releases is very ahistoric.
I'm not talking about the general idea of making pushed cards/sets now and then or the general trend of adding powerful cards here and there. I'm talking about the frequency, volume and level of push. And 2019 is a stark tone shift from almost a decade's worth of sets.
We have seen so many cards from 2019 become multi-format staples, bend formats around them or straight out break them that we have to go back really, really far to find any year like it.
Hey guess what, they printed lurrus
See, my opinion on static effects on Planeswalkers is that they're generally fine, but shouldn't be hate pieces (one-sided or not). Things like Liliana or Ugin or the new 6 mana Chandra are all fine. Narset and Teferi are exciting to play with, but probably not an example of successfully implementing a new mechanic. But Domri Anarch of Bolas? Not a problem.
My opinion is that they're fine so long as it's a boost for the controling player. Those that nerf the opponent are just unfun to play against.
I agree. Most of the static abilities were fine barring those two. I hope they keep them going
Static abilities are a mistake.
Planeswalkers as teferi or narset who obliterates some style of play are a mistake.
Sets with too many big creatures are a big mistake (ikiora)
Mutate is a mistake. It looks to much like the fusion in yu gi oh. I don't wanna play Yu gi oh.
Oko is a mistake.
Today, the standard is a mistake
@@1alex593 bit on the negative side, are we? what playstyles do teferi and narset obliterate?
1 Alex got it, no artifacts, enchantments, creatures, lands, and planeswalkers.
this is really interesting, as someone who doesn't play competitive formats, to listen to, to understand what the bans mean to the people who play. Thank you for the very informative listen.
and on a diffrent note: as someone who cracks packs for a bit of fun every now and again, just to see more of the newer cards, it was kinda wild when a few weeks into theros I cracked an oko from one of the eldraine packs at my store. i'm not one that really sells cards, but there was that thought of "i knew people that spent 40-50 bucks on this a few months ago". it's wild to think about.
It's simple, they put out insane cards to sell packs and when enough time passes, they ban them.
$$$
Also known as how Konami runs YGO, as an ex YGO player I really hope Wizards dont take the same direction but Im not optimistic.
@@watapon3415 true say. I also was a ex yugioh player. I hated how Konomi ran the game and quited as there was no point buying yugioh. and very greatful that commander exists otherwise would of quit magic long time ago
That's exactly how Konami does YGO. Sell OP cards (that can only function as a deck with cards in that set), then after a while ban them. It's rotation but they don't call it that.
@@dandiaz19934 For being a rotation, there are a ton of old cards and archetypes that have tons of success nowadays. Wish I could say that in MTG outside the stupid powerful stuff in legacy and vintage
Magic players: “Wizards is banning my deck on this format! Yugioh players: “First time here?”
Yugioh intentionally allows broken cards to exist so they can sell, then bans them later. This is evident by the dragon ruler cards, which they didn't ban because they were tin cards and highly sought after. They also let Sixth Sense come to the TCG for a time. Obviously trying to sell Joeys World packs. They made dragons so OP that they had to make a "not dragon" type in Wyrms.
They also altered card effects which had existed for many years and were played in their own format. Like DMoC and Sinister Serpent. Goat Format became even harder to play because of it. And nobody uses most of the cards with new effects...
Oh yeah, and the Link rule making it literally impossible to use many old decks was scummy
Thanks for another amazing episode prof! I can’t begin to explain how much these videos have helped me, not only in magic but in my life. These videos are a reason I’m still alive. So I repeat, -Thank- -You-
My absolute pleasure.
It's interesting that the Professor brings up the Transformers TCG here in the discussion of "the face cards/important characters should be super good" sub-section of this discussion since it's been my understanding that the design team on that game has been managing the power levels there pretty well for the time being. Decks focused on obscure or unpopular characters tend to be as viable as those based on cards for the well-known characters, with some variance.
Dragon ball super card game, thought it would be all Goku and Vegeta decks but Bulma is awesome, they even have hercule as a top tier leader, he has less power but he gets additional combo power so it’s very in flavor. If you like magic and dragon ball z/super then it’s a no brainer check it out,
I actually came to magic because in Yu-Gi-Oh link was invented and made my lightsworn xyz turbo deck worthless, a deck I build over an entire year, after link occurred I rage-saled my entire collection and went to magic (still sometimes miss it, but I am happy in general here :)
They did remove the limit on extra deck monsters that aren't Links or Pendelum. So you can XYZ off all you want now. Not that your deck will stand up to the bullshit that exists now.
By remove the limit, I mean they don't have to be in the Extra Deck Zone or a linked zone any longer.
@@NecromancyForKids wtf 🤦🏼♂️
I haven't played YGO in a year, when I took my synchro deck I'd had since I started to retry, and the pendulum mechanic had just came out. My opponent put a pendulum creature in each zone, filled the board with dinobots and pronounced me dead on turn one. The real kicker was that afterwards the guy next door said "that took longer than usual. Usually you kill 2 steps earlier." Needless to say I haven't played since.
One of the best criticisms of Yu-Gi-Oh I have ever seen was in If the Emperor Had a Text to Speech Device
"The only thing intracte about this game is it's ban list."
Really? Every top deck in yugioh right now has to balance playing their high value threats vs playing around hand traps (think force of will there) and how their deck interacts with their opponent, especially in removal
can't wait for DECK traps and your opponent can negate 7 cards/effects per turn instead of 5
@@musicaloperationstwothousa5511 OMG that's totally gonna happen, ain't it? Well fuck me
@@aidanquiett668 Not even worth wasting your time, Magic oldheads must maintain their illusory belief that nothing comes close to MTG.
@@aidanquiett668 Or, if they just go first, put down their entire hand and have 6 cards in hand still and opponent can't play.
I come from Yu-Gi-Oh! ... trust me It gets worse. You could actually build entire decks with the amount of banned cards in that game. Let's hope it doesn't get there
Link killed my 2 decks made me rage-sale my whole collection and move to magic
They have been making obvious money making moves for years now. Dragon Rulers, Sixth Sense, altering old card effects to make them functionally different, then intentionally killing thousands of deck possibilities with the Link rule. They said it would "slow the game down" but had the exact opposite effect and FORCED players to buy the new cards. Super scummy.
@@NecromancyForKids This really isn't the case anymore, the new master rule change is allowing all the decks previously neutered to come back strong as ever. The game is pretty affordable thanks to all the reprints they've been putting out in the past year or so, and structure decks provide a real basis toward competitive decks while still being affordable. While there's still short-prints of cards in supplemental sets, it's hard to say the game is a money grab right now - it's hard to argue that Magic is more affordable than yugioh.
Pleasant Kenobi: "That obviously hoses x, y and zed."
Me: "What is a zed?"
Zed's dead baby. Zed's dead.
It is the _correct_ pronunciation of the letter z, is what it is.
@@modernminded5466 That's correct, ton of Zedbras in Africa are mad at the Z pronunciation.
Faker is Zed
@@modernminded5466 Incorrect
Also, just refunding one card from banning it can still make players lose out. If that one card kills the deck then you may be stuck with a ton of cards you got to make that deck that are no longer useful you wont get refunded for.
Kind of an irrelevant point anyway, since WOTC will never refund individual cards, because that would mean admitting that booster packs are gambling which would subject them to laws which protect consumers from exploitative practices.
Why wasn't Field of the Dead made legendary? Lands that can continuously create creature tokens should be limited to one on the field like Kher Keep.
It should have an effect cost associated with it. Even making it legendary, doesn't stop control decks, or ramp decks, from using it as an easy win condition.
Basically, I would argue the free cost to the effect, causes the issue, not the number.
Yeah I don't see how it being legendary would change anything about the card. There is no benefit to having 2 in play anyway. If it had to be tapped to make a creature then legendary would help, but that's not the case.
13:37
This is why I watch Dies to Removal. These guys aren't just making noise, they obviously think about this.
They never fail to impress.
Please do make tele-conference episodes, I need more content to watch to keep from getting bored in quarantine.
I think Oko was a flat out mistake, that second ability should have been a minus ability.
Amen. I've always thought it was a fair card if it had to lose loyalty to protect itself.
It absolutely should have been a minus, he probably also should have cost 4, and either come in with 1 less loyalty or change the +2 to a +1.
Oko was blatantly broken based on just how he was written. The fact that he could turn basically anything into a 3/3 Elk for such a low cost was absurd.
And the first should have been a +1.
Any planeswalker that can be at 6 loyalty at turn 3 is busted. It could literally do pretty much nothing.
@@trumpetperson11 Pretty much. 6 Loyalty turn 2 with the turn 1 mana dork is just way too much meat to chop through. He single handidily like drove the price of vraska up in the standard format just because vraska was a card that read "Kill target oko" on it.
What the professor said about the lgs and splinter twin banned. When I first got into modern I build birthing pod and I finished the deck and it was banned like 2 weeks later
There's a level of irony in the fact that Oko would have been pseudo nerfed with the release of Throne of Eldraine simply because flicker decks would have become much more prevalent. Thassa in theory could have gotten elked but how many times do you see someone build the new God decks with the intention of actually winning by swinging with them other than maybe Heliod. Thassa could have just sat as a 4 mana enchantment that could end phase flicker any target that got oko-ed. Then all that's left is to simply deal with Oko via one of the many banishment effects that came with the set.
You guys have a really good chemistry and the discussions are of the up most quality
in these last sets there has always been a card where I would tell myself "this card is objectively stronger than this older card of mine and just has to go on my deck". Example: return to nature is an objectively better card than naturalize and thre was other cards like them.
Or veil of summer, an objectively better cryptic command :V
Come on Professor! Watch the low blows. I wasn't ready for that "we didn't play test these cards" joke.
"They want to print things that are more wild and out there in green and other colors"
OBJECTION!... They still don't want to give white anything that's phenomenal like they do with the other colors.
Dave Zammuto *Mothra and Heliod the sun crowned has entered the chat*
Elspeth Conquers death
“Haha money machine go brrr”
-wizards of the coast
Brian: " I don't wanna talk about individual card bans"
Spastic Brit Canoli: "yea ok but... HERES A LIST OF SPECIFIC BANS OVER THE PAST YEAR AND A HALF"
Mid context this is hilarious, full context, thanks for the data set.
"I have enough standard deck"
"It's not wednesday!"
Best moments
That opening skit was more flexing with all the sweet deck boxes you have than anything else...and that last joke, taking full broadside at standard!
There's no worse feeling than opening a pack and saying, "What's my rare? Ohp, it's banned, and so is this uncommon, and two commons." Or looking through the Ikoria spoilers and going, "That's broken. That'll be banned within a week. That's gone in Standard. That's gone in Pauper. Oh hey look, it's that card that's already been banned in 3 formats before the set is even purchasable." That's not a world I want to play Magic in. In an ideal game, the only bans that exist are for cards that no one could possibly foresee being an issue. It certainly shouldn't be a weekly thing for Christ's sake. Who cares if the cards are stronger if you can't play any of them?
I’ve stopped playing standard and draft when they started pushing new sets like crazy.
I started playing only commander but then they started making must-have cards for that format too like arcane signet and the “free if you control a commander” cycle so I just stopped playing magic...
That’s it
Wotc banning "control" decks in modern and legacy was a huge mistake in philosophy of format health.
Wizards made things worse by not allowing counter magic to bleed knowing only 1 color excels at manipulating the stack and library
Not really because for many years as a green player I could never resolve a significant spell. Now I stomp all over blue with my uncounterable threats and everything in between backed by Veil of Summer.
Prof, these opening gags are getting better and better! Thanks for maintaining uploads during quarantine!
We should beta test sets similar to how people beta test video games.
Look at how Riot is launching the new FPS Valorant for example:
They are giving regular people a chance to randomly earn a key to beta test Valorant by watching streamers currently playing Valorant. This brings attention to influencers playing the game, while still letting Riot chose how many beta keys are given out.
For each new set in development we should have Twitch and UA-cam streamers beta testing the game, bringing attention to Magic. Wizards could then reward people for watching MTG streams by giving viewers drops that give their Arena account access to the beta set.
This would have a side effect of free advertising for mtg, as well as boosting the content creators that are the BACKBONE of this community.
Wait, did Vince say *competitive EDH Sliver Overlord?*
Silly Vince. Everyone knows the only cEDH-viable legendary sliver is The First Sliver. What's Overlord going to do, tutor up an army of slivers to scare your opponents out of combo-killing everyone on turn 3? Silly Vince.
I play competitive yugioh tcg, we have a different relationship with banlist.
First thing is that yugioh is am eternal format, and the game is more around archetype than colors.
So every new product we see 2 or 3 new archetypes and some support from old ones.
Them came the banlist. Usually konami disband some card to push the new products, ban some of the powerfull decks of the meta, or just do some balance bans to correct some issues
But if a card is recent released, not matter how many issues is causing, konami will try to ban some cards around the problematic one than the card that is causing the issue. (See firewall dragon card history for an example)
We don't have fixated dates from banlist, but we get around 4 list per year, and is pretty exciting to see the format changing because of that, even when is your deck that was hit (this happen some times with me)
Yugioh is severely mismanaged for the sake of selling cards the fact that yugioh needs constant ban list updates at all like that is a sign of either a broken game or a broken company most likely the latter in yugiohs case. Especially with scummy practices of short printing cards which I find ridiculous in the first place. Magic mostly kept banging things under control for s very long time until recently.
Recently it's like the damn broke and they said fuck it send the cards out have the players play test them then ban whatever they break the game with. Which is causing severely pissed off players that magic hasent really seen before.
Not to mention they just "reprinted" arguably the MOST needed cards in all of magic in basically any format except standard 5 pieces of cardstock for over 400 fucking dollars yugioh has always been a game like that for the most part so you know what to expect magic has just taken a complete nose dive into absolutely shitty business practices recently.
I think lutri is a very good example of wizards being fine with a card that they admit would need to be banned in commander
They gave the rules committee and CAG a significant heads up on Lutri.
I think the major area where they are going so wrong is not by making cards that are powerful because they do what they do really well, but because they are building cards that do a little bit of everything/ are designed to negate the natural downsides associated with their effects. Ramp used to be an effect where you would trade a card for access to more mana, so you could play something big, but it made you more vulnerable to running out of steam, and you traded early game initiative. Ramp no longer requires you to trade a card for access to more mana, because GS and Uro replace themselves. Uro replaces itself, gains life to mitigate the tempo lose, and gives you a big creature for later. Growth spiral is instant, so you don't have to commit to ramp and potentially leave yourself open; you can hold up counter magic, then cast it after your opponent has played. Fae gets around the traditional trade off for running hate cards, because now you don't have to draw them in irrelevant match ups. I can play a big mean green 4/4 for 4, but now I don't have to commit to it and let my opponent have a turn to react. Even cards that aren't exactly setting standard alight seem to have efforts to let players escape natural downside. Treacherous blessing has the 'draw a bunch of cards' upside, and the 'lose life when you cast a spell' downside, then they added an extra bit of text making it easier to escape the downside. WHY? Was draw 3 for 3 in black not good enough? These self sufficient cards take away interaction for both you and your opponent. I don't have to balance card draw, threats and ramp when designing my deck because now I can have them all in a single card.
Fixed Spelling.
So, what I'm wondering is why now they're afraid of "complex bans" when there are cards now that can be cast FROM THE SIDEBOARD and that check for every single card in your deck to be able to be played. How is that any different?
There's one acronym for why so many cards have been banned in 2019 and 2020 that wasn't mentioned at all in the podcast: FIRE.
I know this might sound crazy... but maybe.. MAYBE they should stop releasing that many sets / new cards a year and spend more time refining what they are going to put out!?
That is true for everything, nothing gets refinement or genuine care
Makes me sad
I still think it is funny that the MTG designers on Oko were mentioning that in play testing the idea of turning opponents stuff into elks was not even thought of... LMAO
Wasn’t Painter’s Servant unbanned in EDH, around the same time Iona, Shield of Emeria got banned?
Yes
They didn't include Elder Dragon Highlander because the bans are not dished out by the Mothership.
LOL Practically the same day and time but personally I hate Iona and Painter Servant is the tedious ultimatum
Let's not forget Paradox Engine was also banned the same day
Doesn't helps Iona got punished when the real problem are the decks or cards responsible for cheating her out. Or in the case of K'rrk a needed answer
The anecdote the Prof tells about splinter twin and the crowds at his lgs reminded me about Mishra's workshop.
it's an absolute powerhouse but it can never be restricted because many people play only that. They play "shops" or nothing at all.
and eventhough those people can make any deck they want, its not what they want.
If workshop goes, 15% of the player base goes with it, and vintage can't take that hit, being as unaccesable as it already is...
having mox opal banned out from my hardened scales deck almost killed magic for me. It feels EXPONENTIALLY worse when your deck ceases to exist because of a different deck; in my case urza
Don't know if it makes you feel any better but I want to mention that mox opal was thought to provide future problems too. It's been a borderline card for long, enabling messed up things like KCI. Having said that, it is very sad to see such a cool and mostly fair deck as scales go that has an interesting thing going but needed the power up to keep competing.
@@selkokieli843 doesn't helps that mox opal was designed with synergy in mind. It'll get stronger the more artifacts get released
43:00 Check out the Gatherer discussion on Lotus Cobra from when it first released. People HATED a must-play mythic. Fun, cool, and powerful in a specific niche or mechanic is what they should be, not must play cards.
Am I crazy or the Professor is looking a bit like Jeff Daniels?
Im quite sure the conversation you guys mentioned has happened where they don't think about the ramifications of a card before designing it. I think the number one proof of this is within the new set Ikoria, where we've already seen a card banned from Commander before it comes out due to having a restriction on it that is part of the rules of Commander.
In fairness, Companions shouldn't work at all in EDH or Brawl. The RC has been explicit that there are no sideboards in EDH and you can't play cards from outside the game, which is why Wish cards don't work in EDH. The RC has been explicit that when mechanics are in opposition to the established rules then the mechanics don't work, which is why Hybrid mana cards don't work in mono-colored decks in EDH.
Companion, as a mechanic, should not work at all based on the rules of EDH and previous decisions about how popular mechanics cannot bend those rules. But, suddenly the RC bends rules for this mechanic despite the fact that in doing so they have to outright ban a brand new card.
The merfolk jokes. I love them every time
Banning mox opal was really hard for me. I was playing affinity since 2012 and up to the day the banning was implemented. Now I am going to build jund to try to avoid having anything banned underneath me.
The sad part is, I honestly expect jund to get a ban sometime soon just cause they keep giving it such good cards
..."We didnt play test this at all"
"I dont need anymore standard decks"
This had me crying laughing. I read the title and I still didnt see this coming.
The only acceptable response to being offered NES double dragon is a succinct, enthusiastic yes.
Well done Vince
So when we gonna see the D&t vs merfolk
Okay that intro was just fuckin good. Your guys' comedic chemistry is great, I'll have to catch up on this in quarantine.
Banning Slinter Twin was the final nail on the coffing to me. I was struggling to NOT play that deck for so long. So fucking long, since the inception of the Modern format i was playing any other deck. When i finally gave up and got the final pieces (Splinter Twin itself) it got banned less then a week later. I got so fucking upset that i just lost interest in the format (Splinter Twins were like 60usd each here where i live ). The damage on my confidence on WotC was just shattered by it's constant need to mess up with the banlist.
I'm happy today that i got rid of all my Modern staples and got into EDH.
Honestly, fuck constructed formats and fuck WotC.
I had a similar event happen with my LGS to the professor's story. While not as extreme after the twin ban the scene died. I was the last and only modern player at the LGS and the mox opal got banned. I now wonder modern lost and alone with my affinity deck hoping to find a deck to play and enjoy again.
Funny they talked about this pre zendikar, because ooooh boy... This set literally breaks MTG arena
My conspiracy theory about Opal is that WOTC was unhappy that there was a *somewhat affordable* modern deck
Opal was $100 each
@@alexwilder806 tells you a lot about modern then eh
The point you are missing at 46:20, Vince: It is somewhat simple to spot potential combos (especially for alternate win cons). In the case of Thassa's Oracle: "Either pump up my devotion OR reduce the number of cards in my library". You can't easily cheat on your devotion, but a search for "exile library" in Pioneer-legal sets brings up the Inverter quite quickly. This is possible
"Modern Merfolk?"
Yes!
Paupers elves: YES! LOL
I love my pauper elf deck:P
I went all in on my first Modern deck, Birthing Pod. I would play it against a guys vintage deck just to get reps. After ban hammer, I literally quit the game on paper. I now play Arena FTP though I had 5 years or so where I didn’t play magic at all because of what happened to my $600 deck. Banning destroys players desire to stay in a format and even the game.
it's true for covid-19 and it's true for mtg: We need more testing
I always find it funny to hear people talk about the "combo winter" as this dire event that almost broke the game. To me it was the golden era of magic. Decks like Academy Blue and Sabre Bargain are actually what drew me into the game. The idea that you could design such powerful decks was just so appealing to me. Academy, Bargain, Broken Jar, Tinker.. you had so many insanely powerful decks to play with and so much stuff happening every turn. I actually started playing Type 1.5 primarily as a way to recapture some of the feeling of the Type 2 format of that era,
Vince's argument is pretty faulty, saying that you should just have you customers test things because that is what other games do.
Just look at league of legends. There is a whole meme going around right now called "200 years" and its the community fed up at the terrible play testing of their game. Or look at hearthstone, another card game, where cards are nerfed continuously, sometimes completely ruining decks. Or in the hearthstone wild format (must like modern/legacy) where they give so few shits that a broken deck has around 40% meta share.
There may be a lot of cards, but you can't just use that as an excuse to give up. You cannot just say, 'well we can't fix it 100% so lets not even try to fix it at all'. That is just so bs.
While I agree with you, it's notable that you just named two of the most popular and successful games of all time.
About that, personally I stopped playing heartstone because they nerfed equality. I can take it when they force me to play different things, but when MY damn cards keep on changing what they do no sir I'm out
I feel like we do not give enough attention to the damage caused by removing block sets. When standard was based around three block sets, players had to understand that even if they were playing a set that currently had powerful cards, that eventually they would have to lean into the mechanisms from the upcoming sets to optimize their cards. With only two blocks it was nice to at least see some theme continue through, but you started to see the raise of just playing powerful cards and now I feel that with no real blocks at all, there is little reason outside of drafts to really invest in the new theme or mechanics of a set and instead you might as well find those power cards and work off of them.
Similarly MTG is now trying to cater to so MANY formats that it actually takes away some of what made those formats so interesting in the first place. Pauper, Tiny Leader, and even EDH were originally designed to force players to find creative new uses for cards. Now you have cards like Lutri, the Spellchaser, and Fierce Guardianship that belong in basically every deck that fit that color. Companions shouldn't even be in Commander! There is no side board, that's a bummer, now you can't have a companion use his companion ability, that's fine.. There have been tons of cards that don't work or make sense in Commander.
You don't need to make every card powerful for every format! Focus on a healthy cycle of standard cards that balance within themselves and with regard to the older powerhouse cards, and eventually people will find reasons to use those cards in modern, pioneer, and commander, but when you build cards that are going into standard with the idea that you want them to be strong enough for modern or commander, you are setting yourself up for an unhealthy environment.. IMO..
Hahaha, goblin rabblemaster is literally the only card I’ve ever said was amazing that nobody was talking about. I had been playing for about a year, and I was a super broke HS student but I wanted to play standard so I decided to make a cheap monored deck and saw the card on the gatherer. Only bought a play set to use for my deck because I definitely didn’t have the money to speculate, but they also cost me less than $1.
"You know what Innistrad had that we don't have now...?"
My mind went immediately to the big mistake we DID repeat.... a ridiculously powerful 3 mana planeswlker that Wizards had to apologize about. Except they never banned Liliana of the Veil.
You say that like she compares at all to oko or teferi
@@aidanquiett668 It's more that Wizards even put out an article about how they goofed and should have known better than to make such a powerful planeswalker cost only three mana. Then they released basically the same article again about Oko, implying they either didn't learn their lesson or didn't care.
@@anthonydelfino6171 would you put 3 mana gideon on the same boat?
20:37
Prof be looking posh like Liliana in the background
Brian, ‘Dies to Removal’ is some of the best MtG content on UA-cam. I always enjoy the discussions between you and Vince, the fact that the ideas both you and Vince share are well thought out and eloquently worded only add to my enjoyment of the co-content. TL;DR: I would love to see more content.
BTW Brian, Thank You for keeping the content coming and know I’ll be keep you and yours in my thoughts.
Love these skits at the beginning always makes me laugh 😂😂😂😂
I've never loved them until this one... But THIS ONE...
"I don't need any more Standard decks."
Someone call the fire department, because _all_ of Wizards of the Coast just got burned!
Battle for Zendikar packs were only sold because they had Masterpieces in them. That set was terrible.
Your points are even truer now with the recent Lutri business.
Isn’t obvious? The real question isn’t why cards aren’t getting banned. It’s why isn’t Yugi Muto banned he’s using two people to duel????
Hello??? 2 v 1??? Also ban Uro ty.
If you just rip up every copy of a card, you don't need to ban it...what a great idea!
Prof. Some weeks, I can't find the time to listen to the entire podcast. But I ALWAYS make sure to catch the skit at the beginning. They are really fun.
Ah, "We Didn't Playtest This at All," my second favorite game on the nintendo! Right behind Metroid. XD
Design has been cited as saying Oko was a last minute change that caused problems like Skullclamp. They just acted slower on banning it.
I liked the static abilities on planeswalkers, that made them worth putting in my decks, I don't even care if they have any pluses, I like the feel while playing them