Checking CES Letter claims about the "imaginary plates"
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- Опубліковано 7 лют 2025
- An antagonistic source called the CES Letter compiles several quotes that talk about the Book of Mormon witnesses only seeing the golden plates in a vision, or with their imagination, or under entrancement, etc. How reliable are these quotes? If they really did see the plates in a “vision,” is that even a problem? Stick around and find out.
- Here’s PART 1: “Let's talk about the Martin Harris ‘spiritual eyes’ claims” by Keystone: tinyurl.com/55...
- “Stephen Burnett versus the Eight Witnesses: An Exercise in Mature Historical Thinking,” by
Neal Rappleye and Stephen O. Smoot in Religious Educator, Vol. 25, No. 2: tinyurl.com/2a...
- I VERY highly recommend reading, “Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses,” by Richard Lloyd Anderson.
- Here’s “Ten Years Before the Mast” by Anthony Metcalf, if anyone is interested: tinyurl.com/4p...
Notes:
- Another hostile account of the Burnett meeting also calls Martin’s witness a “vision,” but the account does not use the word “imagination,” which further suggests that “imagination” was an embellishment by Burnett: “Martin Harris, one of the subscribing witnesses, has come out at last, and says he never saw the plates, from which the book [of Mormon] purports to have been translated, except in vision, and he further says that any man who says he has seen them in any other way is a liar, Joseph [Smith] not excepted;-...." Source: Warren Parrish letter, 11 August, 1838, as recorded in "Early Mormon Documents," by Dan Vogel, 2:289
0:00 - Intro
0:24 - 1 & 2: "Entrancement" source used twice?
1:02 - 3: Is a "vision" still real?
1:50 - 4: Imagination and "a city through a mountain"
3:55 - 5: "Eye of faith"
4:39 - 5(2): Same source referenced twice...AGAIN
5:09 - Contradicting sources isn't enough
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“Always the trees that bear fruit are stoned” - Turkish Proverb
The more they come up with different strategies to proof the Book of Mormon wrong the more my testimony grow about its truthfulness.
Coptic is a type of reformed Egyptian. Demotic is a type of reformed Egyptian. “Reformed Egyptian” is a way of saying “Egyptian-based writing that has been modified/altered in some way from the ‘pure’ Egyptian.” There are dictionaries of demotic Egyptian writing systems that exist. One geologist and lay-linguist has even gone through the bother of translating the “caractors” document using those dictionaries, got it peer reviewed (all they will say is basically that his use of the dictionaries is correct), but he didn’t come up with a pile of gobbledygook! It was actually translatable! You can read his (very dry, academic) research on Book of Mormon things on his website which I forget the name of… something like Book of Mormon linguistic research. His name is Jerry Grover though.
@@lexingtoncromwell6128 I believe @gingersnaps215 already answered your question, although I am a firmly believer that religion has to do with faith and no material proof. If God wanted to establish His church using material proof He would have done it long time ago. Faith is a necessary requisite for salvation and when you ask for material proof of something you rule out faith. Although God has power to send an angel to show all mankind what church is His true church or if the Book of Mormon is true, He won’t do it, simply because all blessings are predicated upon obedience to each specific laws related to a specific blessing we are trying to receive. In the case of the Book of Mormon, only those that humbly ask of God in prayer, with a sincere heart and not doubting that God can answer, these are the ones that receive an answer.
Would that not also apply to the CES letter, seeing how Davis channel attempted to “debunk” the CES letter extensively and has been doing so for years?
@@gingersnaps215 Thank you for putting things into perspective. Some will simply handwave your explanation away because "Anything I don't like isn't real", but it doesn't cause the information to disappear.
Holy smokes! Just an incredible video. Amazing organized and edited.
These videos are so good! Thank you so much for taking the time and making the effort to share your perspective on these issues. There is so much damage done to the testimonies of good faithful people by material that is intentionally put together and carefully crafted with evil designs to mix truth with lies and to make the critic's position seem stronger than it is. The way you do these videos is wonderful and I really hope you continue to address these important issues in the future. Thanks again!
Thanks for taking on the CES letter. I hope to see more videos of you responding to it. I have read the CES letter and frankly a lot of its arguments are such low hanging fruit, more people should talk about it.
Have you seen the new “light and truth letter” that is somewhat specifically debunking the CES letter? They brought it up on a ward radio podcast last week. Also some older videos by “the 3 Mormons” with kwaku did a great job of going over each CES number and responding. Helped me a ton as it was right when I read it and it blew me away how many inaccuracies were in the CES letter straight up lying.
@@mrbrian87 The Light and Truth Letter is amazing. I've been reading it online and am realizing just how much people literally worship the CES letter. It's their own title of liberty lol
The fact that the witnesses of the plates are more consistent and reliable than the witnesses of the resurrection says a lot to me. If you can believe Jesus came back from the dead with only 1-3 firsthand witnesses, but you refuse to believe in the Book of Mormon's 19 firsthand witnesses, that's just hypocritical.
What. What? What was your line of reasoning behind this statement? Have you read all the different accounts of the gospel and the varying numbers of people who saw Jesus rise from the dead? Its a matter faith not fact to believe in Jesus or this church.
@@aliceduren6542 As a member of the church I think that evidence has an overwhelmingly negative effect on faith.
@adamhernandez1700 We have records of lots of people seeing it, but I think what they meant was that we only have a few surviving witness testimonies. We don't have testimonials from each and every one of the many other people who saw the resurrected Christ. Faith is absolutely the most important element, but I don't think there's any harm in looking for evidence, as long as that's not what your faith is based on. For me, finding evidences is more neat than anything
@@AdamHernandez4012 "What. What? What was your line of reasoning behind this statement? Have you read all the different accounts of the gospel and the varying numbers of people who saw Jesus rise from the dead? Its a matter faith not fact to believe in Jesus or this church."
With the possible exception of the Apostle John, the New Testament contains zero first-hand accounts of the Risen Lord. The entire New Testament is written by authors who were not eye witnesses to the events described in their writings. This does NOT mean that their accounts are false. If my brother saw something and told me what he saw, and then I were to relate what he saw to you, your subsequent written description of the event might be accurate in every detail, but it wouldn't be a first-hand account. It would be a third-person account. Contrast this with the first-person witness accounts of those who saw and handled the golden plates. They claim they saw the engravings on the plates with their eyes and felt them with their fingers. Three of the witnesses further claim an angel testified to them of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Each of them lived several years after they claimed to see and handle the plates. None of them ever denied their claims. Many repeated their claims shortly before dying.
Why is this important? It's obviously possible that the New Testament witnesses, despite not having seen the events themselves, are truthful, while the Book of Mormon witnesses are lying (or were deceived somehow by Joseph Smith). It's important because in a court of law -- and in the court of public opinion -- we give greater weight to a first-person account than second-hand accounts. Generally, a second or third-person account is given little if any weight. In a court of law, it is called hearsay and is generally not admissible into evidence.
@@AdamHernandez4012what? As a member. I was having a crisis of faith. And so I asked , as our father asked us to do. And got on my knees and asked him for some help in refuting all the things I've heard about the church..and man did he answer me. I started reading and seeing more proof that has been here for awhile. I was stunned and my faith has increased so many fold , I can't count them .
These videos just keep getting better and better! Great presentation and explanations! Thanks David and staff!!
I'm so glad that I know that the Book of Mormón is true by the power of the Holy Ghost!
Hey hey hey, I'm still waiting on more long form videos brother! Where am they be? Even though this was short, I must admit, it was packed full of beautiful data. Appreciate all you do!
Truth isn’t afraid of investigation, thank you for investigating:3
Thanks for making these kinda videos. This really proves my impression that I can't take that letter seriously
Just a request, when you ask us to pause and read can you hold the quote for a second or two longer? It's hard to pause or go back.
Thanks for the feedback!
Incredible work. Thank you all.
Terrific content - knocks it dead - shows how flimsy the arguments against the witnesses really are...
Flimsy arguments? What? There are no plates and that is a fact. Where are they? This fact alone speaks to the reality of the situation. All eleven of the witnesses are very questionable at best. They were either in on the fraud, gullible, or coerced.
Anyway, the BoM is obviously a modern creation, not an ancient document. About 75 percent of the Book is directly related to information derived from 19th century America. (See Grant Palmer)
Just the facts.
Love these! ❤
Another fantastic video! Thank yoU!
Great points. BTW, it was Elisha who asked that his servant's eyes be opened to see the heavenly host defending them.
Why did Joseph Smith pray for the witnesses to have eyes of faith to see the plates at the same time that Joseph claims he was in physical possession of the plates, as in DC17????
I have gone through fair Mormon website myself studying many of these types of claims. Thank you for being my second witness with the Holy Ghost. 😁 wonderful content.
Comment for the algorithm!
Love this channel. Some of the best content on pro faith history.
Good work
You guys do amazing work this comment is really just for the algorithm.
Thanks for actually diving deep into history !! ❤🙌🏽 Love the Video 😇
I want to share an experience from the Old Testament: “In Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream by night: and God said, Ask what I shall give thee.”-1 Kings 3:5 Then again, Solomon has another experience in 1 Kings 9:2: “The LORD appeared to him a second time, as He had appeared to him at Gibeon.” So clearly here in two instances, it says that God appeared unto Solomon in a dream. So, does this dream, or vison at night qualify the same as seeing God with Solomon’s own physical eyes? Well apparently, the writers of the Old Testament do not see a difference; In other words, having a dream where one sees God, is the same as “seeing God” to them. Allow me to illustrate: Here in 2 Chronicles 1:7 it says this: “That night God appeared to Solomon and said, "Ask, and I will give it to you!" Here it does not differentiate between seeing God and having a dream where you see God; It is the same according to the record of the Jews. Again, going back to 1 Kings 11:9, the same book where it said Solomon saw God in a dream twice, you will clearly see that even in the same record that there was no difference to the writer: “Now the LORD grew angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice.” I want to say that it is the same with various accounts of the first vision and the testimony of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. The Bible has many accounts like this, and it does not discredit it because a spiritual experience is described differently in other areas of the same record.
Fabulous video David! I love content breaking down the trash the CES is.
Great content.
What were the made of?
How long were they?
How wide were they?
How thick were they?
How many pages/plates?
Can any of the symbols be reproduced?
The witnesses do not know. And yet they are newer than the dead sea scrolls which we can read.
Keystone has a video of the size of the plates and number of pages
the witnesses all describe very similar dimensions and properties lol
Thanks for making more vids like this 🎉
Hey!
Ill have to check, but my last name is Burnett, I know we have a cabin at this is the place. Im curious what my relationship to this Burnett fella is
Very good analysis. However, as in so many other cases, you undermine the value of your fine efforts by (at 4:30) showing Joseph translating from his hat. Joseph consistently testified that he translated the entire Book of Mormon from the plates using the spectacle-like Nephite interpreters which the Lord supplied with the plates (JS-H 1:35). And in fact, even the very dubious sources claiming the scrying stone in the hat was used, such as Emma Smith and David Whitmer, usually agree that the interpreters were used for the pages Martin scribed. So even if you are going to continue to maintain that Joseph lied about the main translation, at least when showing Martin's work as scribe for the lost pages, even those dubious sources would require that you should show Joseph using the "Urim & Thummim" spectacles.
You know Oliver mentioned Joseph’s use of “clear stones in a hat,” right? In at least one proselytizing effort on a street corner in Ohio(?), a witness of that effort recorded in his journal that Oliver Cowdery, the “amanuensis” (scribe) mentioned how Joseph would place stones in a hat and the “inspiration flowed.” You can see a picture of the actual journal entry and a transcription of it on the BH Roberts foundation website. I always mix up the journaler’s name, but I believe it is Richard (maybe Robert..?) McNamar.
Also, according to one source that Don Bradley has found, Joseph’s hat was beaver fur, and the use of animal hide to cover sacred things is totally consistent with the OT, as well as one of the accounts of the lost stories from the Book of Mormon, which you can find in Bradley’s book, or a few interviews with Don about some of the things in his book. I know he definitely mentions the animals skin connection in an interview with past SU host Jake in Jake’s podcast. You should be able to find it on the SU page under the “podcast” tab 😊
Can you please do a video on Joseph Smith prophesying about a temple that was to be built in Independence Missouri.
This particular issue is troubling to me
As long as there’s enough confusion, induction is difficult. Keep muddying the waters. The corporation appreciates it.
There is no proof or validation of the Book of Mormon, not one historian or archeologist has stated its authenticity. Not one artifact has been found.
Have read the CES. It is all trash except the financial section. The finamcials are a big issue. Not of the truth of the sctiptures, but of the potentially corrupt leadership culture. Look up the widows mite financial report. Tithings funds become investment capital after 1 year. Over 200 billion plus. For every 1 dollar of of global charity spent, 5 are spent in member aid and 99 invested. Add that with pride support at byu and the conference center this year and mixed messages that conflict, and it is clear that we are approaching 3rd Nephi 16:10. Chrust states He will remove the fulness of His Gospel from among the Gentiles if they do not repent.
Short answer: if we take some time to blunt our brains and blur the lines between what a "vision" is and what "objective reality" is, we can justify anything if we just all agree to pretend hard enough.
Short answer: visions are a biblical thing. Nice to see biblical things restored to the earth through the prophet Joseph Smith.
What about horses, cows, steel swords, and reformed Egyptian?
Check our Hopewell - plenty of that there... And as to horses - I believe they found those too ..
Old news
These issues are resolved!
Antis don’t acknowledge new findings.
They merely spew old tropes and outdated information.
@@nataly140 well what evidence made you believe that? And I'm not aware of anything close to steel swords
You know the whole horse/tapir thing isn’t so weird when you realize that “hippopotoamus” is literally Greek for “river horse.” I wouldn’t say a hippopotamus looks a thing like any member of the equine species, but that’s what the Greeks have dubbed those pachyderms, and we still use that name today! Apparently the Mayan word for horses means “lightning tapirs.” No idea about Amerindians from further north on the North American continent, but I do know there are oral histories from several tribes that mention horses from before any colonizers arrived 🤷♀️
Also there totally is such a thing as reformed Egyptian, several known languages are in fact “reformed Egyptian.” Ancient Greek, for instance, has its origins in ancient Egyptian and Phoenician. Coptic is a “reformed Egyptian” language. There are demotic dicticionaries that exist, and “demotic” is basically “reformed Egyptian” in various forms.
I mean, English uses a modified form of the Latin alphabet and is basically a conglomerate/pidgin language of Germanic, and Scandinavian languages, French and other Latin languages. Language is quite a fluid thing!
@@gingersnaps215 So if it was not odd for them to label a tapir a horse, how were these chariots powered? Hippo drawn chariots?
What about how heavy these plates would be? It would not be possible to run with them, "if they existed at all", with someone chasing you.
Witnesses estimated between 40 - 60 lbs, which suggests that the plates were probably not pure gold (more likely a gold/copper alloy, as William Smith suggested).
Joseph's journey through the woods back to his home would have been just under 3 miles. It's unclear where along that journey his assailant attacked him, and it's unclear how much of the journey Joseph ran versus walked. We also don't know the physical capabilities of his assailants. I don't see a problem with the plausibility of this journey, but to each their own!
Joseph Smith was jacked.
@randyjordan5521 Thanks for sharing your perspective. I find it curious that you use Richard Bushman to support your argument that the plates never existed. Bushman is an active Latter-day Saint, and fully believes that Joseph did indeed have authentic plates in his possession. I also find it odd that you claim that if the incident had actually happened, the "bad guys would have ... simply gone to his house and taken them [the plates]." You then proceed to quote Bushman, who literally tells us that Samuel Lawrence and Alvah Beeman (followed by Willard Chase and his gang) did indeed go to Joseph's house to try to get the plates. It seems they were fully convinced he had them, and did not leave him alone (eventually, Joseph had to move to Harmony for the translation of the plates). In Bushman's quote, none of the "money-diggers" say that Joseph didn't have plates. Quite the contrary. They are convinced he did, and mad that he didn't share them with them. Some food for thought! Happy to agree to disagree, though. Have a great day!
Edit: It seems that the comment I was replying to is no longer here.
A vision happens on someone’s head, it’s not real.
While I dont agree with where modern church is headed there is no doubt in my mind Joseph Smith is a Prophet
If I were you, I’d go back and read Pres. Nelson’s conference talks since being called as prophet.
Your hair will light on fire! 🔥🔥🔥
He truly is the prophet for these last days.
And he sees around corners that mortals can’t see around!
What a humble, faithful, consecrated, sincere follow of Christ!
Perfect?? No with flaws yes, but I don’t think you will meet anyone like him without guile.
❤️☀️
@@Whatiftheresmore1314 Double negatives sure are tricky aren't they
@@rusochileno639
Only Jesus Christ was perfect.
Every mortal has flaws and makes mistakes.
But President Nelson is close enough to perfect for me.❤️☀️
Just read DC 132. Try to imagine God saying this.
Read the BOM. It is so full of inaccuracies that the more you read it the more you find.
Truly depends if you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, brah.
I believe he was and that the Book of Mormon is the word of God.
The Lord’s voice in the Doctrine & Covenants is unequivocally the voice of Jesus Christ. Sorry that you don’t recognize your master’s voice, but that’s on you.
My favorite one is the "evil secret societies". That's obviously talking about masonry. Then Joseph Smith moved to Nauvoo, joined the masonry, and copied most of it as the temple ceremony. Perfect example of philosophy of men, mingled with scriptures.
@@aaronhinton92Emma will be destroyed if she doesn't agree with polygamy. Totally the Lord's voice. If your God talks to a prophet to let him get dozens of wifes and let millions die of hunger, then I don't want your heaven.
Must of been watching the 132 problems channel…not accurate content on there and misleading in many ways.
Since you can't show us the plates, we should all assume they're imaginary. A bunch of gullible friends of Smith's don't convince reasonable people
Did you know that most historians, including non believers, think that the evidence quite clearly shows that he had physical plates?
For example, the renowned non believing scholar Dan Vogel believes that he made a set of tin plates.
Ann Taves, another non believer, believes something very similar.
Rather than constituting a substantive contribution, you calling the plates "imaginary" probably just tells us about how much you've studied the topic
That’s like saying just because my grandma is dead, it must mean she was imaginary. Good one.
@@ethanf.237 tin plates are not gold plates. Smith probably did make some shit to fool people with. He was an adulterer and a liar. The case for Mormonism is non-existent. Only very gullible people believe it today
Did Alexander the Great exist? If so, show me the body.
@@DavidPeel-fo9xv you don't understand historical sources. Moses didn't exist, but Alexander the Great did. There is abundant evidence for one and not the other.
There are only about 4 million active members of the church in the world because the story sucks and LDS leaders are absurd racists and liars
The gold plates never existed.
awesome