It's strange because support has become a very popular role, but there are genuinely so few people that actually know how to SUPPORT. They either healbot or dps with very little in between.
i very much agree. a lot of the support only players I've seen have this issue. i don't mind dps supports and i prefer they do damage but also heal people if they get low. don't constantly heal if someone is only missing 10% health but you have to keep people alive. i think a lot of OW's problems are that people do not know how to play. something I think PVE could have solved but they missed their chance at that.
Yup I’m a sup main myself I find it difficult sometimes to look away from my team or they just explode but with two tanks it’s gives me a chance to squeeze out a good chunk of damage in between healing my dps that want to run away and my tanks
They are just mirroring the design of the support heroes. Overwatch "support" is broadly just healing and protection, and the most common trade-offs for a hero healing less is dueling potential, ranged pressure or self-survivability. A flexible mindset just doesn't click for some people because of the lack of "enabling" in the gameplay loop. They'll chase kills too much when in "damage mode" and will ignore damage opportunities when in "keep ppl alive" mode.
I mean in metal ranks supports get flamed for daring to speed boost as lucio while rein randomly decides to pin the wall behind the enemy team. People instantly die without constant healing so yeah a lot don't really learn to do anything but healbot.
@@benkai9921 True, the guy said something about not needing to heal a low HP teammate behind cover if you can help someone take a duel, but I've had a 1 hp reaper constantly peak a bastion in turret mode. So, you kinda have to healbot lol
I think another issue is that tank players that don't know how to not feed are demanding a lot of healing. And it takes a strong will as a support player to let them die and learn their lesson, and most just healbot, which is a Sisyphian task
this is true and something i noticed when classic mode was out. a lot of people didn't know how to play around their abilities and timing them. the tanks would be super passive because they didn't understand how to time jumping in as winston with bubble and using zarya bubble to survive. i think OW2 has unintentionally made players bad at the game because they rely so heavily on healing and immortalities. it was sort of an eye opening moment to realize that and why even players at my own rank didn't understand what to do lots of times.
@@arinrobinson3898 The amount of bad habits that ow2 and s9 changes people got will be much more noticeable when 6v6 gets to competitive mode, and when (or if) s9 changes will be reverted. Interesting thing is that tank playstyle got rug pulled, support were babied, and some dps were molded, tracers, genjis, junkrats never been so good, modern players of these characters are insane now, diamond genji now purely mechanically would easily belong in gm few years ago
@@dsvd4727 season 9 was bad overall for sure. making good players great and great players gods hurt the risk reward system overwatch had finely tuned. i'm convinced that season 9 was only popular because 1. stuff was dying again finally and 2. lucio and moira were meta for a bit. now it feels like the same old OW again and people are bored. they tried some bold changes but unintentionally made players worse at playing the game IMO. I think 6v6 once again helps separate the good players from the bad better. whether or not the community likes that or not is another story. I think it just plays better from a competitive shooter standpoint but idk. maybe i'm too hardcore.
@@arinrobinson3898 Yeah, s9 wasn't torn to shreds only because it made dps viable again, but then they still decided to juggle dps passive more in pursuit of nonexistent equilibirum where supports simultaneously don't feel "helpless" to flankers or oneshots and are not too egregiously overpowered, when the demands of dps and tank roles are quite simple - buttons doing damage
@@arinrobinson3898 I wouldn't say people getting worse at the game was unintentional; they keep making changes that lower the value of various skills that aren't just aim, such as people respawning in groups etc. So many bad habits are rewarded now, and I hate it.
The thing is 6v6 doesn’t have issues team 4 does. Map and hero design is not the fault of format. High sustain metas have been in each format so format isn’t the issue. Support power creep and heal reliance is what makes flaws even more pronounced.
In fairness, 5v5 and not planning ahead together are the issue (they literally were caused to brainstorm ideas to fix tanking in 5v5 in the announcement stream when Super asked how they'd deal with the pressure and raw incoming damage for the tank player and then after that, the pro playtest had massive feedback that support needed work as it was free food for dps) and in the lead up to release, they only really addressed the tank issue by making them into super tanks while supports got basically nothing but a few abilities getting minor burst heal buffs. So they scrapped for ideas after the exodus, opting for sustain creep despite literally nobody asking for it.
One of the reasons I stopped playing MANY years ago (but continue to follow the content when I'm bored) is because the team straight up can't balance, or refuses to do so because they thrive on an ecosystem of "this patch made your favorite hero meta, come play our game! It's totally better now :)" when all it usually is is power creep and forcing certain heroes to be meta with nonsense balance decisions. It really shows how little they understand the problem when Ana has been meta for like 90% of the game's life span in various formats and metas but they refuse to tone down anti, and then make all the other supports in line with her so they "feel impactful".
This test made me realise how much i love ball. Hampter is like so much fun even when the enemy team goes like sombra, sojourn and any character that counters me its so much better than 5v5. I also love how hero design shines so much more in this mode. I hope the devs actually let this gameplay stay or just replace 5v5 cause honestly its the most fun ive had on ows in a while.
It's a lot of fun when there's more chaos. Ball feels way more fun to play against too. I think overall it's just a massive improvement. Even if it's still got it's flaws.
5v5 didn't solve tank queue times, it was a band-aid, and made the problem fester into even more people not wanting to play tank. Tanking already required a certain amount of "heart", you're signing up to be a punching bag, and removing a tank made it so ALL the CDs come at you. Your hitbox is so big that nothing misses. It seems most people don't want to deal with that.
If they had big powerful Ults for big plays it might help but they have no burst and weak ults so the only thing there good for in 5v5 is being a punching bag. Then they get blamed and counter swapped. I understand why no one wants to play tank.
been bingeing a lot of your videos, its really refreshing hearing someone articulate/talk about and hammer down the issues this games has (ridiculous support power creep, dps not having much agency anymore, tank being unfun, the constant babying of the support role) and not be super toxic about it. i can listen to you talk about this game for hours truly. and if no one has told you yet your voice is really soothing
Thank you! I really appreciate you watching all my videos. I know I don't have the best production quality but I just really love talking about games so I'm happy people are finding my videos interesting and unique from other creators. I really could talk about gaming for hours, it would not even be hard. And I used to stream on twitch a lot more and some people said they liked my voice for some reason and I'm glad you think so cause I know i tend to ramble on in long videos so i'm sure it helps haha.
I definitely think there's a significant issue with tank and support being more complex roles than damage. Tanks have a lot more things to think about than just securing kills or holding angles.
i think tank is the hardest for people to understand how to do properly. the skills are not as obvious on what to do and angles you need to hold. knowing when to push and when to peel is a skill many lack. dps the better you are the more off angling and duels you take. higher risk higher reward. support you could sit far back and heal and poke with little risk. i think a lot of what OW2 has lacked is teaching the players how to play better. helping them realize what they should be doing. there's entire online communities dedicated to helping players rank up. there could be something within OW to help players do that and that might make tanking more fun. it would also help everyone. i do still think the immortalities and dps passive hurt tank the most so I would first look at those things but i definitely think there are ways to show people how fun tanking can be. landing a knife as JQ is just so satisfying and people don't even know yet.
ngl, on my first day playing support on 6v6 I thought that I always needed to be healing but after playing like, idk 1.5h a day since then I did adapt to 6v6. Today I played qp before going to comp, and, omg, the difference is big, the game looked so slow to me, I had so much more fun on 6v6, there was always smtg happening. Btw, I played as tank too and it's so much more enjoyable than before, now I can play much more freely as tank bc Ik there is someone protecting my back.
i'm glad to hear you feel the change too! 5v5 is just so slow and so much sustain. I love the fast action of 6v6 and constant play making. there's always something to do and always someone to attack who made a mistake and in 6v6 you can punish anyone who steps too far out of place.
Yes! People for some reason say that 5v5 is more competitive and fast paced, but with 6v6 there's this ebb and flow; a truly competitive feel to it where you're always busy, no matter the role. In 5v5, there is so much downtime it's not even funny.
At this point i feel like they should've replaced 5v5 with 6v6 for this test, both comp and unranked, this experiment has kind of been setup for failure due to 3 factors, marvel rivals, holiday season and the fact 5v5 still exists and people can just ignore the 6v6, because for whatever reason, the devs only look at the test by queue times instead of taking genuine feedback and make decisions based on that feedback at least that's what it seems like, if 6v6 doesn't replace 5v5, then it's gg for overwatch, marvel rivals will take over the hero shooter genre, hell it already is taking over by simply being a significantly better game
The support part you addressed is interesting. In 5v5, at first it felt like support was free food. It really was, too...they'd been warned 6 whole months prior. This caused a massive exodus of support players in S1 and fucked queue times more than RQ had done in OW1 for like a week before they removed basically all MM rules and lied about it. And the new hero was boring/generic, clearly catered to attract DPS players. Eventually this issue led to a need for obscene sustain which was always going to cause problems. After S9, though, metas for supports have been healbot or be a DPS with no inbetween; it's felt like agency and carry potential was lost in favour of doling out sustain and attracting DPS players since the beginning. The DPS passive and HP pools caused so many problems while even making those it sought to deal with worse and at the same time broke the dps role by widening the gap between the meta and non-meta heroes. And the worst part is that they tested this exact passive in an alpha with pros and streamers before the first closed beta for OW2 and the feedback was overwhelmingly that it was terrible for the game. In the 6v6 test, the DPS passive and healthpools still fucking with breakpoints do make support feel like they need to heal more, but frankly, as someone who was always a flex player that leaned toward support? It felt so much better than the game has for years despite this. Every single decision suddenly matters; if i choose to heal the wrong target, my team is punished, if I choose to go for some damage or an aggressive play at the wrong time, my team is punished. If I make smart plays, my team benefits. This is what I loved about Overwatch. My choices matter in this mode despite it being blatantly set up to fail. The last 2 years, choices have just...not felt important since around S3 I think (can't recall exactly) but problems were blatant long before that. Atm, though. Marvel Rivals is scratching the itch as a competitive player who truly loved Overwatch (and I still do, if we're talking what it used to be) Not only that, but they're not scared to make heroes with interesting kits that are niche; most OW2 heroes have been so painfully generic with the exceptions of Ramattra and Life Weaver. At least JQ is cool despite the basic kit.
"Every single decision suddenly matters; if i choose to heal the wrong target, my team is punished, if I choose to go for some damage or an aggressive play at the wrong time, my team is punished. If I make smart plays, my team benefits. This is what I loved about Overwatch. My choices matter in this mode despite it being blatantly set up to fail." I love the way you wrote this. games and their replay ability depend on making you feel like you could have had an impact. 6v6 in all it's flaws still makes you feel like every decision you made mattered, that you had the tools to change the outcome, and if you failed you wanted to queue back up and try again. the degradation of player choice and impact has been slow so it's not super obvious as one solid culprit but it's why i think marvel Rivals capitalized so hard right now. there's so many big plays that happen in Rivals that despite it being unbalanced is still fun. I made another simple video talking about my experiences with Rivals that'll come out tomorrow but I am absolutely loving how fun Rivals has been and how simple it has been to get into. I still love Overwatch and it's world, I hope they bring it around, but i feel the competitive game bug biting me for Marvel Rivals.
The truth is, supports are overly coddled because the devs: 1. Don't know how to play the game, and keep buffing support because that's how they get carried when they play 2. Know that support spends the most money between mercy and kiri mains and keeps them strong to keep them appealing and thus keep milking those characters for skin money
The reason why supports became so broken were in the beginning of the game people refused to adjust to learn how to play for themselves, instead they overbuffed them to help them deal with being bad and kept buffing.
6v6 wasn't even the problem double shield was. and really it was the addition of sigma and Baptist immortality You can run reworked orisa sigma bastion and now only sigma has a shield and bastion has turret form on a cooldown So it falls flat on its face just revert the health pools Alternative idea: a lot of bunker doesn't work if bastion is a tank. you can't run all 3 of them at once and bunker is restricted to only one shield because he wouldn't have one Abilities: weakened tank form on his E weakened turret on his SHIFT Artillery on his Q And his heal on RIGHT CLICK All on a cooldown... making him and walking arsenal with different abilities and an interesting tank character
yeah the aoe sustain did not help with the immortality. I think a lot of people just didn't understand what is making heroes strong. i think the sustain and denial are bad things for a shooter. i think if rivals has taught us anything it's that people like offensive big play making abilities and i hope overwatch one day goes that direction again.
@arinrobinson3898 not only do people want to make plays but they want it to be challenging to do so when genji uses blade he is in your face and all of his cards are on the table there is intensity and risk involved if I play poorly I die same with tracer then you have characters like sojourn or soldier or cassidy that can do the same behind a shield and just laser everyone but there are way more Genji and tracer onetricks (me being one of the genji otps) because the character is an adrenaline rush to play and not just a meta pick Marvel rivals isn't winning because its balanced its winning because its way more fun to play and rewards that intense gameplay That's a lot of typing sry lol
As an old tank player- playing 6v6 is bringing back old tank tactics- getting far more agressive at times, and (some of the time) pulling off big plays! It wasn't intentional, just old instincts kicked in- oh look I can probably charge in there, and get 3 kills etc! Open Queue with 2 tanks is usually good- but this is on another level again- more freedom, and the weird thing- team play! I think oh, I'm dead, I overextended- then the other tank or a squishy saves my ass! And the other weird thing- it's often a DPS that saves me, not necesarily a support- very cool! And the same thing on the enemy team- I'm chasing Mei with DVA- Mei's both cooldowns have gone, and she's low on HP- dead meat- then a support and a DPS on her team move in, heal her and provide so much pressure on me, I've got to back off with matrix up or be demeched! And I'm not pissed off- as it was great game play, and they deserved that win!
rivals doesnt feel as good as overwatch but after trying it i can see it being some kind of competition that should scare overwatch ITS FREAKING SPIDERMAN IN A HERO SHOOTER
Yeah rivals doesn't look as smooth. I can't put my finger on why that is but the idea and how it plays is solid and in games that's all that matters. I'm a harsh critic and even I am playing it now.
@arinrobinson3898 Rivals doesn't allow crouching to avoid head shots, and it's a rougher experience over all. But it's a more fun option as a casual game. I've been playing both Rivals and OW lately, and prefer OW solo; until my friends get on, then we play Rivals.
What I've been spamming since S9 S11 is that "meaningful interaction" is crucial to good player experience, regardless of the role, or even the format. Buffing HP doesn't soften counters - it reduces windows of opportunity to outplay the counter. There are obviously still problems with balance and design within 6v6, but the reason it feels better is because the amount of things that can be meaningfully interacted with has increased. You can actually feel and see your impact.This is what players have been missing! Reverting S9, subsequent damage compensation, and removing the role passives would make the game much better. They should balance from that point onwards.
I've seen some comments on reddit and online. hard to say without data but I have seen more people prefer 6v6 online as well. i know my queue times have been all over the place with 6v6 but not in a bad way. some days tank was longest, others dps, others support. hard to tell without a whole season of just 6v6.
My queue times in 6v6 for tank and support always say 15+ minutes but somehow i always find a game within the first two mins. Somehow my 5v5 queues say 4-6 minutes and they end up lasting 7+, aint no way people are playing 5v5 more than 6v6
The fact is devs spending a lot of time implementing 5v5 or roadhog rework or ANY big changes, and they just never judge once if its good or not. They just leave it in the game for YEARS when we instantly saw worse variables in the format.
it's so nice playing tank and knowing you can outplay the other tanks. also 2.5 second zarya bubbles in 6v6 means you are always full charge! it's pretty fucking crazy.
@@arinrobinson3898yeah having a meaningful Tank exchange feels so much better than playing Rock Paper Scissors all game. The balance is a little wacky but overall feels so much better to play. In an ideal world they would've balanced it closer to the 6v6 Workshop code.
Same here. Completely abandoned the tank role in OW2 and became a support main since it’s the only role I felt like I was doing at least something in. Now that 6v6 is back, I can finally play tank again (mainly DVA and JQ) and I am having a blast!
I think the main issue with most of the incredibly powerful support abilities is that they're reactive instead of pro active. Imagine if suzu wasn't a denial, but a deterrent instead. Instead of immortallity and a free 110 heal cleanse, imagine if it prevented debuffs for like 2 seconds and gave a damage (and healing) reduction. Then it'd feel a lot less frustrating because then you wouldn't get punished for hitting your abilities, you'd get punished for mistiming them. That would reduce a lot of frustrations I have with supports right now.
I agree! Reactive abilities are never as much fun as predictive ones or feel as satisfying. I actually made a video on what I would do to fix kiriko. I'd be curious what you thought of them. ua-cam.com/video/vpPe0J4vvvE/v-deo.html
tank role feels much better overall as you don't have to counter swap anymore to guarantee wins. but if you get a bad tank your team and enemy team has 2 tanks that play together, your team is toast.
I came back to the game recently and I hated how a tank could just jump into back line and not get punished for it. Now that we have 2 tanks mauga can’t just charge through and try to kill supports for example
6v6 is only better mode IF they make main and off tank roles. If there is a slight chance of double shields, no thanks. I take 5v5 every time over that chance. I don't understand how people enjoy shooting double shields, it was the most hated meta in OW, now it's good to have that chance again?? What? why? It's lunacy!
Hog in 5v5 is an immortal god oneshotting people or perma dead because he gets countered. In 6v6 he has so much more skill expression with his old right click and a better risk/reward ratio while also not instantly being a throw if they decide to counter you. Some heroes really shine in 6v6 like moira and junk, but others benefit from 5v5. Like widow.
When ow2 came out I almost quit, but ended up having to admit I was having more fun, mainly because of the faster pace and greater freedom of movement with the extra space. However, I've grown tired of tanks that won't die and can't be punished. In a recent game I walled off a way overextended Rein and he actually died but got rezzed through a hole in the wall before we could react (we need to talk about rez btw). I then used Blizzard and right before he dies he gets nano. I think it took ANOTHER wall before we could finally kill him. We basically had to kill him three times before he was finally dead. Of course, yes, they at least had to use an ult, which felt fair, but the same thing would have resulted with a simple suzu or pull. It feels so good now that tanks actually die when you wall them! One thing that sucks though is that now tank synergies matter again and you will lose games simply because people refuse to play tanks that make sense. Also, half of your games now devolve into Rein/Zar, which is fun, but gets monotonous. I remember this same problem in ow1.... basically rein/zar or lose (I'm talking metal ranks here) probably because that's the easiest to implement synergy. All in all, team fights are too long (another problem that was in ow1). I think either lower everyone's health or, better still, drastically reduce healing output. Also, spawn time needs to be increased so teams can't keep stalling endlessly since stuff doesn't die and you can survive a 4v6 long enough to keep getting fresh teammates back. Oh, and there's way too many ults. But that could be fixed easily by adjusting the cost. Widow needs to be heavily nerfed (what's your take on one-shots, btw) since with Sombra no longer having enough stealth to get to her before two teammates are dead the fact that every lane is cluttered now means she's basically untouchable. Staggering is also so much worse now than ever and i think part of the problem is that when people see three other teammates nearby they think they can take the fight not realizing that that still loses badly verses six.
I agree with a lot of this. I think everything season 9 should be reverted, healing should be nerfed, DPS passive should just be removed. This means more stuff will die faster by everyone and healing and damage doesn't feel inconsistent. Some abilities like zarya bubbles last too long now and need that larger window off vulnerability back. Immoralities should be removed and replaced with play making abilities this will mean stuff dies faster as well. I made a video on how to fix kiriko if you want an example. Fights stall out cause stuff isn't dying so we need to adjust the abilities keeping them alive cause it's not their raw health. Widow is a problem of either level design. Some levels she's a god and others she's a throw pick. I think I would first experiment with level design on long sight line maps. The other solution is take away her one shot and make her ult a one shot mechanic instead. Or make her charge up like Hawkeye in rivals by looking at someone first. That's where I would start.
Oh yeah and that killing a tank 3 times is one of my big complaints of 5v5. Since you can't out play a tank through abilities it just feels like you're shooting a wall and to see a res and feel like you need to do it 3 times isn't engaging. You didn't feel like you out played the tank, it just felt like a chore, so it wasn't rewarding even when they finally died for real.
My only issue with 6v6 is the tank combos. Sometimes it feels like you lose right at the selection screen. Also playing tank makes me wish this game had friendly fire so I could pin a roadhog co-tank off the map, playing with him was miserable in OW1
Haha well lifeweaver does exist still! I didn't mind the tank combos but i had an easy time playing quickplay. i wonder how it would fare in a competitive ranking. i know my experience is different for a lot of players so i'd really like to see what it's like when everyone plays at their ranks and what flaws start to show.
that's just inevitable. but knowing that you now have two tanks who can potentially switch instead of just one tank gives the tank role so much more versatility in player decisions. what feels worse is a tank getting hard countered, or a game devolving into counterswap fest
Rein is a big problem to me he feels very clunky, I feel like taking away the other fire strike while not compensating with anything other than shield health encourages the boring part of his kit, also makes it easier for the other team to go ram and then boom! Rein is useless now. and I know they have to nerf tanks or else they’ll dominate but I feel like if the tanks don’t dominate they’ll be waaay less fun. Damage is too high and with the dps passive still up healing cannot keep up. Either nerf damage or do another health raise to keep up. I feel like everyone explodes. Dps like bastion and mei are literally tanks with the amount of health they have. Overall I have a lot of gripes with the mode
Yeah I'm fine with giving tanks some fighting power. I don't think the tein nerfs were needed. In order for people to want to play them they still need to feel powerful and they don't in 5v5 and in 6v6 with supports and DPS having so much control they need some too.
i didnt like the 6v6 test becasue doomfist was absolutly dumpstered sure the other tanks play well and can be fun but my main is absolute trash because of the nerfs for 6v6 so makes me hate it
8:07 why is it that when someone has a preference that's different to someone else they don't know how to play the game like the philosophy of these game modes aren't different from the bottom up
oh, fun question! i just have the one right now. it's Nico Robin from One Piece. one of her defining moments from enies lobby. I designed it myself and a wonderful artist in LA who does manga panels did it for me.
i don't know if i am misunderstanding you but doesn't a "longer tank queue time" mean that there is more people playing tank than support and dps? in ow1 there was 10+ min for dps and almost insta queues for tanks because of the low amount of tank players and the high amount of dps players?
yes, i might have gotten my brain mixed up in the video and i tried to correct but failed a bit. but the problem is not enough tank players to balance out the support and dps players. i think that's the fault of balance, design, and lack of tank options though.
the only people that i have seen who dont like 6v6 are the OW2 only tanks. they are all only gold/ below and complain that tank sucks bcz they aren’t invincible. tanks not being invincible is pretty much the entire point of 6v6 it brings tanks down to an even playing field with the other roles but tank synergy helps remove tank counter swapping. even with a nerfed doomfist it feels 10x more fun than solo tanking as doom. if you are doing good on tank you get to now deal with being counter picked.
Space control matters more in 6v6 and it's pretty obvious when one team is doing that better. Overwatch 2 is honestly a better casual game. I don’t mean to say there’s no room for a competitive scene but 5v5 has moved the game away from that. Space control has become far less important with no offtank and heroes are less lethal as a result of S9 changes and supports becoming more survivable. At one point in OW1 you could barely peek without instadying during the Hog/Sigma/Widow/Hanzo/Zen meta. I don’t think this was healthy for the game either but OW2 is the complete opposite, sometimes it feels like group up simulator-even Tracer is sticking right by her team because there’s no point in hard flanking (I especially lament the loss of assassin Tracer playstyle, it was far harder to pull off but now Tracer feels like a better Reaper, just soft angle spam. Compare how kevster plays in OW2 to OW1.
I hope 6v6 becomes a permanent thing, I hated 5v5 solo tanking. And I have been playing open queque ranked for the most part because its more fun. Untill Mauga killed that with goats 2.0. His shout is out of this world. Life steal and dmg reduction on multiple tanks who also have headshot reduction already ... 6v6 2 2 2 is the best of both worlds. Structure + not solo tank
"6v6 is too Chaotic and not as much fun." The whole point of 6v6 was to be chaotic and fun 5v5 is the exact opposite because I don't want Support be the deciding factor of who wins the encounter on/near point ana nade being 100% Heal reduction, that's been bad since her launch, and kiri suzu just being dumb. Tanks not having as much control to be a threat on the encounter makes it less fun dps passive also factoring in to that problem, if only they tweak the (instant win buttons) like nade only reducing healing by half to still feel it's effect, but not be a full counter, suzu being similar but not being able to cleanse, and bap lamp just being tweaked to prevent a death and heal 25% health (lamp is consumed) mainly to say shutdown potential should be more on tanks(CC,Healing Nullification,Roots etc) and enable potential like Nano as an example should be on supports while dps has their typical impact as setting up kills and bigger kill potiential.
We really need to go back to supports either doing mass damage or mass healing, zen, Lucio, and Ana are perfect. They can all well and the only centrist is Lucio which is perfect. He does enough to help and still be impactful and thats what he needs to do. Kiri and Bap are the worst designed supports ever. Talk about Brig all you want but healing by damage is awesome and they really just need to tone her down (when shes a problem, shes fine now).
I thought kingmaker was a lot of fun and should have a spot in qp the way mystery heros does. no way to do a comp kingmaker though, it's too unbalanced.
People like to complain about supports being the issue why tanking isnt fun, but nobody talks about tank just being basically a dps with more health and less abilities. With some tanks you dont even have any chance in a 1v1 duel against most dps. As a tank you should have the playmaking capabilities and not the duelists (dps). Yes with very good teamplay with the second tank you can do a lot of playmaking, but a dps can do the same without requiring the other dps to support them doing so. Even if 5v5 tanking is much more stressful, its also more rewarding, risky plays high rewards, but in 6v6 your teammates not peeling quickly for you is already a risky play with no reward.
Sat down playing ranked one night and i wanted to see just how broken support would be after i had gotten much better as a player (I originally was a 4250 support player during season 20 but switched to tank and hit 4400 a few times). I did this test somewhere around season 28 and all i did was picked mainly zen but i would swap to ana or bap and just did as much dmg as was reasonable, whilst still healing my team. A few days later i climbed from low masters to 4270 with a over 73 win rate. Sure i had been a support player prior to the "test" but at this point i hadn't really played the role all that much for 2 ish years because i was focused on being the best tank i could be as i was starting to do some scrims at this point. So i still felt washed at support but was still absolutely destroying lobbies due to how extremely strong supports were back then and they are even worse now. The only players that i would say were genuinely good at the role were pretty much all top 100 players. Anything below that would be somebody I could heavily outperform on the same role most of the times. Haven't really played a full season of ow2 since i really don't like 5v5 so i haven't gone for top 500 but gm is still by far the easiest to reach on support. I wonder how the support players which are most of the times the worst players on the team, have convinced blizzard that their role isn't broken since 2018. Sorry for the rant but im sick of blizzards babying of the support role
Hopefully the timing thing will be perceived more objectively, in terms of the data I mean. People playing Overwatch but not 6v6 is different than people not playing Overwatch at all. I’m pretty sure they’ll be able to see that. This holds my cynicism at bay. Imma be real. I think this is the first time, in a long time, that I’ve actually been enjoying my self and then lost. So often in 5v5 it feels like I’m being held hostage by my own team. Tank is soooooo much better. There’s just more to do. It comes back to something I heard someone else say: Playing tank in 5v5 feels like out of 10 possible decisions you can make, once 1 of them is correct. Otherwise you just feel like you made a mistake.
I have frequently said it feels like i'm being held hostage in 5v5. when you don't have the team coordination it feels like you can't get anything done. then if you tank in 5v5 and you die your team loses and blames you. it's too much pressure for one role. the only job you have as a tank in 5v5 is not die and that's not fun. 6v6 has been much more enjoyable for me and i missed it but with marvel rivals i wonder if it's too little too late. had so much fun last night it's hard to go back to grinding OW comp again.
@ Oh I’d never try to convince anyone to go back to 5v5 comp after playing Rivals. 6v6 though? 6v6 is far closer to a peak that Overwatch achieved which Rival isn’t currently. Like you said, Rivals is fun but it’s not peak Overwatch. But I’m with you. If they don’t take 6v6 seriously, I think lots of people will be done.
It's a bummer to say cause I love overwatch but there's no more story, no cinematics, no love, boring balance, I'm just sad to see it's potential going to waste. It feels like all they care about is selling skins now and without the love for the game it just feels so empty.
@@arinrobinson3898 ah dude you’re getting me down but you’re not wrong. The two big, no, gigantic mistakes they made were abandoning narrative direction and the jump to 5v5. More and more of my friends are just drifting away. In large part it’s become a generic live service game. These seasonal events are mainly superficial, like you said skins. It’s a shame because I think people don’t care that they add new heroes and maps - some of the highlight content.
We need more tanks to help others get into the role cause alot of people just dont like the tanks we have atm for offer. Plus tank is so fun for me in 6v6 then 5v5, I rather not get auto stun lock to death when playing ball into a team of full counters and my supports go welp nothing we could of did there.
it's a shame cause there's so many great tanks already and i think it's hindered by the fact that 5v5 they were buffed to just be punching bags. immortalities counter their ults. and they don't get the dps passive so their damage is inconsistent. then the devs wonder why no one is playing tanks... like guys please lol JQ is actually so much fun for me as a dps player but counter swapping, the blame, the sustain, immortalities, all keep me away from playing tank.
I agree with this take 100%. You can make tank more fun if you promote and create tanks that are fun to play! I ADORE Wrecking Ball and JQ because playing them feels like a constant adrenaline rush with pretty high skill expression. Tanks like Orisa on the other hand feel grating to play imo, and Orisa is usually meta most of the time.
Yeah, playing Orisa and playing against her is boring. Orisa being meta means that just being alive as a tank means more than being proactive as a tank. Many people want that adrenaline rush you talk about. The feeling of landing your shots and out playing your opponents. A lot of tanking in overwatch 2 is just surviving unfortunately.
That's why I think supports should get more abilities that allows them to be proactive. Suzu keeps people alive but if that player is useless keeping them alive doesn't help much. It's also frustrating to play against. Offensive support abilities give better agency and player choice as well as counter play. I made a video on how I would fix kiriko going over ideas like this. Perhaps you might like some of the ideas I came up with.
6:27 tanks are also much more easily countered and much more regularly gutted which makes it hard to main any individual tank. You can do 2 but 1 means you're throwing at least some games.
this title is very true, and I'm glad you clarified it's still better to not confuse people lol, it's still better imo because hiding the problem (in this case) is actually just mitigating or making it less of a problem, it's hidden because it's smaller
i think it's more so that other queues go up cause there's not enough tank players. dps and supports don't like 8 minute queues. high elo would get bad with like 20-30 minutes at times.
You pretty much said it. I quit because I almost never got the opportunity to do something other than be shot at and when I finally do one of the overtuned supports swoops in with and shuts me down with a cooldown or even worse: undoes it. I became a lucio onetrick after dropping Rein and Zarya.
As a masters/gm support player whos never played ow1, 6v6>5v5 and its not even close. Every role feels more powerful and "safer" yet at the same time more risky due to the added tank (like you said, higher risk and higher reward). At first i thought support would just be a healing simulator, yet that wasnt the case since i was able to keep the default state of damage while focusing a few more seconds of healing compared to 5v5. Even heroes who usually dont do much damage such as Lifeweaver i had been able to get to around 10k damage just from the sheer pressure he can dish out against tanks's heads. Moira can play with her two tanks as a third tank, essentially being immortal if she uses her healing orb properly, Ana nade can be blocked easier yet at the same time landing one feels more rewarding, Mercy can never stop moving (though i still want the action state cancellation back) etc Support just feels better because they can do so much more while feeling super rewarding when it happens, at the cost of your entire team dying, which usually was the responsibility of Tank or dps. Supports do need to be nerfed (support passive needs to be removed, global healing can stay) though. The only frustration comes from tanks feeding as if theyre god tank from 5v5, leading to players healbotting. I still remember a Juno of mine having 12k healing on a 3rd round of control, claiming that support actually feels balanced because they have to heal now. She had 1k damage compared to my 7k dmg and 8k healing on Ana, yet we still lost because this supposed balanced healer couldnt take the pressure off of us, especially since healing tanks is 100000% easier then healing anyone else who are in dangerous positions
I’ve seen multiple CCs comment on 6v6 potentially getting railroaded/not given a fair shot and I’m over here thinking “this is fun enough. Bring this back permanently”
I don't enjoy 5v5 anymore at all I played 6v6 and had more fun. Still a lot of the frustrations of OW2 plus some of the frustrations of late OW1. I had a really bad streak yesterday, teammates that obviously didn't know how to play and every lobby just dominated by Zarya. Support is absolutely not miserable in 6v6. It's frantic, but not horrid. What I've learned is that I no longer enjoy dps at all. None of the characters are fun for me anymore. All the kits feel very samey and they didn't used to be. TBH I think the basis for tank should be the heavy in TF2. They should go for more heavy frontliners. There's so many ways to do it to create interesting kits that are full of interesting damage and space making abilities. If the current 6v6 became the game would I play more than Rivals? No. Rivals I actually enjoy all the roles. A lot of the design decisions they've made for OW2 to make it more sweaty and competitive just doesn't appeal to me. That's not what OW was designed for and many character identities are now tied to playstyles that just don't work and aren't fun in OW2 and no amount of reworking while keeping them feeling similar to how they played originally is going to work. I used to be a support Symmetra main. She plays nothing like that now. I used to enjoy Sombra, I really loved the Mirrorwatch version of her. I enjoy Lifeweaver but he's got nothing on Symmetra v2. I think Moira has one of the best implemented kits in the game, it's so smooth. Ana is still one of the best designed heroes. I havent touched tank in so long I dont know how any of them play anymore because the experience was so horrible.
it's interesting cause I hear some people say they cater too much to casuals and other people say they cater too much to pros and high elo players. it feels like they aren't really catering to either well and it's hurting them. I think there are ways to make most people happy but they seem to miss the mark a lot. I know for me I love the serious competitive side but the game doesn't feel good the higher you climb anymore. I got bored trying to rank up. Rivals on the other hand is crazy. so many wacky interactions and abilities but it feels so good when you win and feel like you outplayed people. the interactions between heroes is just so much fun. it's gonna be hard for me to put down for awhile.
@@arinrobinson3898 and IMO that's actually where OW went wrong. They doubled down too much on streamlining everything to make it consistent and removed all the fun. This is especially important because the game was originally designed with a range of characters that used different types of player skills, not just shooter skills, like Mercy, Rein, Symmetra, Mei and even original Torb. The game was not designed to be a straight up shooter and it was more fun when it wasn't. Other things I think hve made it worse is making Symm DPS instead of doubling down and making more supports that weren't healers. Would Bap be so awful if he kept immortality but didn't heal? Would Brig be so bad if she gave overhealth but no healing? If they hadn't doubled down so much they wouldn't have needed role locks. I think they have just consistently got the tank design philosophy wrong. As I said, they should be heavy frontliners. Lower their HP, give them good damage and damaging abilities on par with DPS or their defensive abilities for the sustain and space making. Why is Hazard fun? Because he's aggressive and mobile and deals damage while making space. I don't play comp so I'm definitely casual, I've played like maybe 100 comp games in the entire history of OW. But I've watched top 500 streamers and honestly the games don't look any different apart from the skill of the plays invovled. It's still people mostly insta dying, still a teammate throwing a tantrum and throwing, still someone sticking to a character that is being completely hard countered. The skill level is different, but the experience seems identically miserable. Whereas in Rivals I enjoy all the roles, most games I fill because I am still playing someone I enjoy, I'm not being forced to play someone or something I don't want to play, I can switch if it isn't working and the kits are largely fun. Sure some are a bit lacklustre and the game lacks a lot of feedback, but at least the soundscape works. When someone is behind me I can hear them. In OW2 Rein can march right up to me behind me and I won't hear a thing.
5v5 just feels like crap tbh. Tanking is miserable, it's like trying to fill a leaking bucket of water. I rarely feel like there was actually anything I could do differently to win tbh. I mostly play 5v5 open queue ranked actually, because it's most similar to the game that I originally fell in love with, but the 5v5 format solo-tanking just sucks. I lose to widow players, doomfist in our backline, etc, and I just can't do everything. This game seriously just doesn't work 5v5. 6v6 has it's problems too, obv, but yeah, it's way more fun, it's overwatch. 5v5 just doesn't feel like overwatch
idk about you but 6v6 feels miserable as a dps. you dive someone and because of the lessened pressure on the tank you suddenly have the enemy tank and the entire scooby gang on your ass. I would be COMPLETELY okay with this if it wasn't for the massive amounts of CC tanks dish out. If the CC wasn't prevalent i would love that shit. for supp I main ana and tbh the one time i tried her i just got hazard + doomfist fucked every single team fight so that was miserable but when i used to play her in ow1 it felt much better than playing her in ow2.
i know youll say "dont dive alone" but if the target is off position and half hp obviously i go in. the problem is the tank mobility, doomfist and hazard, some of the supports being almost unkillable (moira, kiri) and some other minor annoyances make this painful. at least in 5v5 when the annoying ass doom or hazard dives a backline hero, your tank + the other 3 players can run into the enemy team and kill them
I've played OW since open beta and at this point, I prefer 5v5. Maybe it's the characters I'm maining these days (Doom and Tracer) but I don't enjoy either of them much in this 6v6 test. Doom has lower hp and longer cooldowns so I have to be in and out super fast, then do nothing for a long time. And with Tracer, every angle I take I run into 2+ enemies, often a tank included, and feel like I have less chance to use the character's dueling potential. Playing my secondary hitscan characters felt a bit more chill than 5v5 though. Get to sit back and shoot tanks most of the time.
that's interesting cause i'm a Tracer main and I like that in 6v6 i feel like i have more options as i can duel tanks, dps, or supports. it's constantly shifting to being aware as to who steps out of place and who makes a mistake. in 5v5 i felt like i was just shooting the tank to apply pressure and force a suzu or something. i knew i couldn't kill the tank but i also couldn't leave them alone. i just wasn't a fan of pumping damage into tanks. it's interesting though now that OW has created two formats and impossible to make everyone happy. i don't know where they'll go from here now.
Tbf, Doom will probably end up needing another rework to function in 6v6. The fact they nerfed his CD of all things shows that they think he's a problem in this context, too. I'd take him getting reverted back to his DPS form as he's somehow more obscenely unhealthy in his tank form despite losing the one shot cheeses.
IMO role lock will stay 5v5 there’s almost no way around it. With that we have a game mode that has received 0 balance updates. Open q. I truly believe open q (min 1 max 3) 6v6 is going to replace open q 5v5. Q times are no longer an issue, the playerbase is less split, comp stability will come to open q, and most of all they won’t have to balance open q 5v5. It honestly makes sense now why open q received no balance updates. They probably didn’t want to waste dev resources on something that will be removed. With the wording of team 4 “Is there a way we could have both simultaneously.” If they do role lock 5v5 and open q 6v6 the answer is yes.
I am curious too try open q max 3. Maybe it'll be a compromise that works. Only way to know is too test but I know I hated king maker, 5v5 is boring, and I love 6v6 but they did nothing to address the problems still. Maybe open q is the way to go.
@ I wasn’t the biggest fan of kingmaker either tbh. I enjoyed min 1 max 2 but with no proper tank balance it’s a wash. I’m really excited for the open q 6v6 it helps fix most of the format issues.
As someone who dislikes 6v6. I dont dislike 6v6, I dislike the idea of bringing it back. My issue with overwatch over the past 4 years has always been that, i really cant tell what this game is trying to be anymore. And the doubling down on 5v5 gave me hope that maybe OW was starting to really come together And the devs were getting close to how THEY wanted the game to be. Like the quote "a game for everyone is a game for knowone." Is this game for competitive players? Why cant i watch live comp or tournament matches in-game? Why cant i have comp and casual guilds or clans to build my team work skills? Why is there such soft lock on heroes like moira for "casual players"? Arent the casuals the ones that complain about that character the most? Is this game for casuals? Why is there so much fomo for casual modes then? Why doesnt workshop have more features? Lets throwaway the whole casual/competitive player thing. What about all the half assed character reworks? Pharah is STILL in the skybox and sombra just gets deleted? What sense is this? And yet the community decided the most immportant thing is a format change. And anyone who disagrees is labeled like some opposing political party. Straight up monkey behavior.
One of my big complaints is that I don't know who the game is for. My casual gold friends think they cater to pros and high elo too much. I reassure them they aren't balancing for the top either. Then I heard Aaron Keller in an interview say they want a serious competitive shooter, when I thought they were trying to make a more casual one. So I am just very confused. I wish I knew exactly what their vision was cause I could understand if they reached to change it into a game that wasn't for me anymore. Then my critiques might be meaningless. I have ideas on what the game could be and what I'd like it to be. I just know as an original overwatch competitive player I'm not having fun anymore. Like I said before though maybe I'm not the target audience anymore.
I live in Cali so it's usually not too bad but mostly it's because I broke my collar bone skateboarding a couple years ago. Ever since then it's never quite felt the same and tank tops are easier to take on and off than shirts after that.
Honestly I think 5v5 has done irreversible damage to the tank experience, it was miserable to play and will a sour taste in players mouths which is a shame as we’ve had some super cool tanks.
Idk what in support do these people mean, when support still has 3 second heal passive in 6v6 which means that you can't interact with them if they are behind the tanks in the backline
Most based 6v6 complaints I've seen so far. I've put roughly 30 hours into tank this past week and it really does feel like there's an issue with the support play in this format, though I've oscillated back and forth with feeling whether it's skill issues vs match making issues. I wish we had the tighter requirements of comp matchmaking to really determine where the issues are but overall I've enjoyed 6v6 way more than 5v5.
@@arinrobinson3898 yea which makes it really inconsistent because some characters are basically playing pre s9 and some others are not which makes it even more unfun
Man, between PoE2 (already got many hours in despite being busy) and Rivals.. it's really hard to keep me in OW2 even though 6v6 is a better experience to me personally.. I just really dislike certain Hero designs (Kiri, Illari, Bap, Weaver, Cas, Widow) that just sucks enjoyment out of the game, for me, personally.
I personally really hate what they did to JQueen. Pushing into a team and punishing people out of position feels a fair amount less rewarding. I love how high risk high reward she is but gutting my self heal just for 100 extra health feels bad.
6:36 that's true but it's never going to be enough to make a REAL dent in evening out the queues, and there is no real solution to this tank will always be sub >33% of the playerbase that harms queue times I don't know why people keep trying to walk around this issue and pretend there's a solution to it cause your options is this or goats pick one
i agree with the mentallety of balencing it to be fun insted of making something that doen't work, work hell i am a sombra otp and ppl told me to play other roles to get better i started playing zen ana reaper etc but i didnt like tank at all but then in ow2 they made junker queen and i fell in love now i mainly play sombra, ana and queen i'm not only a better player i olso have more FUN! edit: i hope that they are not gonna keep nerfing and buffing heros to sell skins coff coff, mythic widow coff coff they did sombra derty asf coff coff
Oh man Sombra players got done dirty. I'm sorry about that. But yeah lots of times there's just not a hero yet that might appeal to players so just make more heroes! I don't like rein but I love JQ. We just need more options and more play making ability with them. Learning other roles does make people better players too. It always helped me a ton. It's why I always tried to keep up to date on each role. Also I made a video of how I'd fix Sombra. Might be something you would like or have some thoughts on. I'm always curious what Sombra mains would think.
Completely disagree about kingmaker, the mode has potential, in it I felt what a rein zarya duo can do again before 6v6 test, it had unkillable ana problems, but in the end it worked and allowed different team comp matches Also even if you think that you don't play with similar skilled player in unranked, you are. There is hidden qp mmr, in example I can say that my qp games in the end of ow1 were much more sweaty than ranked. System hasn't changed since
I don’t think 5v5 or 6v6 matters if it’s not fun to play. I’ve played a variety of genres of FPS/TPS with a variety of formats. There’s so many different approaches to handling formats but the most important pieces are the designs of the heroes. If the heroes are balanced a certain way then x format is bad for them/if there’s not another complimentary/adversarial character to match. The same extend outside of the shooter genre. Allowing players to achieve various power fantasies without sanitizing the fk out of. They have the ability to add and subtract entire ability slots. To add and subtract entire movement options or even the entire kit. If you find that certain designs are problematic and you’ve tuned and tuned for years, perhaps you might want to try some new kits. Even if they perfect the format, the issue is still the actual characters’ gameplay interactions/lack there of. I don’t really follow Esports, but perhaps ramping up how crazy the game can be will breath some new life into it. Competitive players will always find a way to be competitive. Realistically brining in A new character or A new smol format change isn’t going to really revolutionize the game and bring players running back in. It’ll at best slow the bleed of players. They are really going to have to look at the characters, gameplay modes, and options they give to players if they want a big return.
Well said! My videos have all been criticizing the kits being the problems in the game and not the balance. You can't fix a lot that doesn't work through balance you need to give players better tools. At least that's what I believe.
dude i played all roles and mainly played my favorite characters. doom, genji, lucio, kiri. those characters are the main characters i play and it felt amazing to play. i could just do my thing without feeling like i completely abandoned my team. sometimes i int if i miss some shot but also i get big plays when i hit them. the risk reward is there with 6v6. bring it to ranked remove 5v5
I mean yeah 6v6 is better but the games still not fun, i can’t describe what it is but I’ve genuinely felt like it’s cause it doesn’t have the old ui cause I just can’t explain it any other way, or maybe it still has the sequel kits instead of the original ones
As a support main its not fun half the time im eother healbotting or useless since ppl just wanna int like they always have. Taking away the tanks hp pool so they can be shredded in literal seconds isnt fun. You cant make mistakes as a tank anymore. 5v5 and 6v6 both have their flaws and im not sure its ever gonna be good.
i think you can make mistakes as tank but they are just punished much quicker if you don't know what you're doing. it's great counterplay but the learning curve OW2 tank players will have to endure now might make it tough. i think in the long run it'll be healthier for the game but it will be painful for people who relied heavily on just being unkillable before. that being said it means your ability as a support to do damage and outplay the enemy tanks is also greater. try to see when you can weave more damage in and only heal when people are below 50% health. remember, your tank won't need healing if you kill the people shooting at them!
Thank you! Pre season 9 GM 5 all roles and post season 9 I think I made it to m4 on all roles at least once. I play a lot less post season 9. My game sense is really good but mechanically top 500 players are just better.
5:19 Your fundamental understanding of how queue times work is backwards. Long queue times mean MORE people disproportionately are playing the role, not LESS. The concern was always with a disproportionate amount of dps players to the other roles, and dps queue times were high. We see this is backwards here, where tank is the most played role now, because it’s fun in 6v6
I misspoke in the video about making it seem like tank queue times are the issue when i meant to say the lack of tank players which would then effect the other role queue times.
I haven't been enjoying playing support. Support feels like you're heal Bottling. You'd think with the extra person being able to cover you, you'd have a better time. But honestly it's worse in some bullying situations having the extra person just bullying me without any peels. 😩
Do you mind if I ask your rank? Just because for me it's felt the opposite. I only heal if someone is close to death though and I never use nades to Dave teammates only anti enemies lol my teammates should learn to stand behind cover cause I'm not nading them.
When you say make tanks for more I argee 100% I find hazard is so much fun and maybe I’m a little biased as already played a lot of tank but if tank role had more fun characters like hazard we would see more people playing tank
The 6v6 test was sabotaged. Released during Marvel Rivals launch and the holiday season. It kept the updated health pools, hitbox increases, kept some role passives, and didn't bother to rework or remove insane tank/support sustain abilities like Mauga's overdrive and Kiriko's cleanse. Also, why did they add pre-rework hog back? He feels awfully clunky now that we're used to the new one. Also, the fact that they even thought Kingsmaker was even worth testing shows you how much these devs don't have a sliver of common good game design. Not to mention my pc feels slower running 6v6 in this new engine compared to the og Overwatch. The old saying like @Samito says that Blizzard are master artists but not good at balancing at all.
@@arinrobinson3898 Didn't disappoint, super reasonable opinion as always. Just a quick thing on heal botting, I think a lot of tanks in this test are used to 5v5 hp, so they take a bit too much damage, forcing supports to have to heal more. I would assume people would get adjusted after like a month or two
@@Control_Plus_C i agree, i think it's just gonna take time for people to adjust. people need to time their abilities a lot more and be mindful of cover and that can't happen over night. i'd be curious to see how it is in a month of playing or preferably a whole season.
anything that makes a game complicatd is good even casual players dont care about a game that is too simple to understand , if overwatch wasnt disgustingly difficult to play, if genji combos didint require frame perfect reactions i wouldnt play him
6v6 is factually more chaotic, the problem of the game always has been that it requires and incredible amount of teamplay from strangers, and the more players you add in a team the more this problem is big so yes 6v6 IS more chaotic that 5v5. And it's arguably the most important thing in a game like this. Which could indirectly show that 5v5 is inevitably better that 6v6. What about 4v4 ? where is the right balance ? 5v5? 4v4 ?
I would argue 5v5 requires more team play as you can't fight the tanks alone and immortality abilities deny a lot more in 5v5. So playing around those is obnoxious as I feel like I need to bait them out and hope my team can do something after.
whenever a new round of complaints come out, i always feel like i caught a massive dub by not liking overwatch from the start. from goats meta to dev team swaps to 5v5, ive heard more complaining and dramas from this game through the years than from the ones i actually play lol fwiw i gave the game another go with 5v5 since some of my friends play and ive actually been enjoying it. mostly because tank is so buffed in that mode that i can practically close my eyes and run around one shotting ppl with hog. have tried 6v6 a few times since they brought it back and so far ive found it just as boring as i found ow1 back when it launched. i dont enjoy the other roles and tank is not fun to me in 6v6. i think i just like running around as an op character more than i actually like the game 🤷
I clicked on 2 videos at once and i dont know on which im commenting. So i kinda agree with mos def but drake could still be labeled a rapper and popstar at the same time and 6v6 does sweeten things up
I also had that same problem with support players. They said it feels miserable but man, I love playing support in 6v6..I can do so much actually.. Feels nice. But you have to know when to heal, when to damage, when to peek since now support also can die easily, etc etc.. It's very dynamic. I like it. Tank synergy still is as wonderful as I remember from ow1.
Marvel rivals support lineup doesn't have any way of denying a death like ow supports do and that's why it plays so much better and why tanks feel more fun in that game.
Shockingly Loki actually does have a sort of immortality but it's less noticeable and harder to time. The immortalies in 5v5 format are super frustrating cause of how easy and often you see them. They still pop up in 6v6 but slightly less frustrating.
Let me introduce you to luna ult, mantis ult, loki and Adam mass rezt. Raccoon rez. Clearly you have not played rivals enough. Luna mantis is hard meta
It's strange because support has become a very popular role, but there are genuinely so few people that actually know how to SUPPORT.
They either healbot or dps with very little in between.
i very much agree. a lot of the support only players I've seen have this issue. i don't mind dps supports and i prefer they do damage but also heal people if they get low. don't constantly heal if someone is only missing 10% health but you have to keep people alive. i think a lot of OW's problems are that people do not know how to play. something I think PVE could have solved but they missed their chance at that.
Yup I’m a sup main myself I find it difficult sometimes to look away from my team or they just explode but with two tanks it’s gives me a chance to squeeze out a good chunk of damage in between healing my dps that want to run away and my tanks
They are just mirroring the design of the support heroes. Overwatch "support" is broadly just healing and protection, and the most common trade-offs for a hero healing less is dueling potential, ranged pressure or self-survivability. A flexible mindset just doesn't click for some people because of the lack of "enabling" in the gameplay loop. They'll chase kills too much when in "damage mode" and will ignore damage opportunities when in "keep ppl alive" mode.
I mean in metal ranks supports get flamed for daring to speed boost as lucio while rein randomly decides to pin the wall behind the enemy team. People instantly die without constant healing so yeah a lot don't really learn to do anything but healbot.
@@benkai9921
True, the guy said something about not needing to heal a low HP teammate behind cover if you can help someone take a duel, but I've had a 1 hp reaper constantly peak a bastion in turret mode. So, you kinda have to healbot lol
I think another issue is that tank players that don't know how to not feed are demanding a lot of healing. And it takes a strong will as a support player to let them die and learn their lesson, and most just healbot, which is a Sisyphian task
this is true and something i noticed when classic mode was out. a lot of people didn't know how to play around their abilities and timing them. the tanks would be super passive because they didn't understand how to time jumping in as winston with bubble and using zarya bubble to survive. i think OW2 has unintentionally made players bad at the game because they rely so heavily on healing and immortalities. it was sort of an eye opening moment to realize that and why even players at my own rank didn't understand what to do lots of times.
@@arinrobinson3898 The amount of bad habits that ow2 and s9 changes people got will be much more noticeable when 6v6 gets to competitive mode, and when (or if) s9 changes will be reverted.
Interesting thing is that tank playstyle got rug pulled, support were babied, and some dps were molded, tracers, genjis, junkrats never been so good, modern players of these characters are insane now, diamond genji now purely mechanically would easily belong in gm few years ago
@@dsvd4727 season 9 was bad overall for sure. making good players great and great players gods hurt the risk reward system overwatch had finely tuned. i'm convinced that season 9 was only popular because 1. stuff was dying again finally and 2. lucio and moira were meta for a bit. now it feels like the same old OW again and people are bored.
they tried some bold changes but unintentionally made players worse at playing the game IMO. I think 6v6 once again helps separate the good players from the bad better. whether or not the community likes that or not is another story. I think it just plays better from a competitive shooter standpoint but idk. maybe i'm too hardcore.
@@arinrobinson3898 Yeah, s9 wasn't torn to shreds only because it made dps viable again, but then they still decided to juggle dps passive more in pursuit of nonexistent equilibirum where supports simultaneously don't feel "helpless" to flankers or oneshots and are not too egregiously overpowered, when the demands of dps and tank roles are quite simple - buttons doing damage
@@arinrobinson3898 I wouldn't say people getting worse at the game was unintentional; they keep making changes that lower the value of various skills that aren't just aim, such as people respawning in groups etc.
So many bad habits are rewarded now, and I hate it.
The thing is 6v6 doesn’t have issues team 4 does. Map and hero design is not the fault of format. High sustain metas have been in each format so format isn’t the issue. Support power creep and heal reliance is what makes flaws even more pronounced.
In fairness, 5v5 and not planning ahead together are the issue (they literally were caused to brainstorm ideas to fix tanking in 5v5 in the announcement stream when Super asked how they'd deal with the pressure and raw incoming damage for the tank player and then after that, the pro playtest had massive feedback that support needed work as it was free food for dps) and in the lead up to release, they only really addressed the tank issue by making them into super tanks while supports got basically nothing but a few abilities getting minor burst heal buffs. So they scrapped for ideas after the exodus, opting for sustain creep despite literally nobody asking for it.
One of the reasons I stopped playing MANY years ago (but continue to follow the content when I'm bored) is because the team straight up can't balance, or refuses to do so because they thrive on an ecosystem of "this patch made your favorite hero meta, come play our game! It's totally better now :)" when all it usually is is power creep and forcing certain heroes to be meta with nonsense balance decisions.
It really shows how little they understand the problem when Ana has been meta for like 90% of the game's life span in various formats and metas but they refuse to tone down anti, and then make all the other supports in line with her so they "feel impactful".
This test made me realise how much i love ball. Hampter is like so much fun even when the enemy team goes like sombra, sojourn and any character that counters me its so much better than 5v5. I also love how hero design shines so much more in this mode. I hope the devs actually let this gameplay stay or just replace 5v5 cause honestly its the most fun ive had on ows in a while.
It's a lot of fun when there's more chaos. Ball feels way more fun to play against too. I think overall it's just a massive improvement. Even if it's still got it's flaws.
Winton for me. Never liked playing him but one time I did and I went feral.
5v5 didn't solve tank queue times, it was a band-aid, and made the problem fester into even more people not wanting to play tank. Tanking already required a certain amount of "heart", you're signing up to be a punching bag, and removing a tank made it so ALL the CDs come at you. Your hitbox is so big that nothing misses. It seems most people don't want to deal with that.
If they had big powerful Ults for big plays it might help but they have no burst and weak ults so the only thing there good for in 5v5 is being a punching bag. Then they get blamed and counter swapped. I understand why no one wants to play tank.
been bingeing a lot of your videos, its really refreshing hearing someone articulate/talk about and hammer down the issues this games has (ridiculous support power creep, dps not having much agency anymore, tank being unfun, the constant babying of the support role) and not be super toxic about it. i can listen to you talk about this game for hours truly. and if no one has told you yet your voice is really soothing
Thank you! I really appreciate you watching all my videos. I know I don't have the best production quality but I just really love talking about games so I'm happy people are finding my videos interesting and unique from other creators. I really could talk about gaming for hours, it would not even be hard. And I used to stream on twitch a lot more and some people said they liked my voice for some reason and I'm glad you think so cause I know i tend to ramble on in long videos so i'm sure it helps haha.
I definitely think there's a significant issue with tank and support being more complex roles than damage. Tanks have a lot more things to think about than just securing kills or holding angles.
i think tank is the hardest for people to understand how to do properly. the skills are not as obvious on what to do and angles you need to hold. knowing when to push and when to peel is a skill many lack. dps the better you are the more off angling and duels you take. higher risk higher reward. support you could sit far back and heal and poke with little risk. i think a lot of what OW2 has lacked is teaching the players how to play better. helping them realize what they should be doing. there's entire online communities dedicated to helping players rank up. there could be something within OW to help players do that and that might make tanking more fun. it would also help everyone. i do still think the immortalities and dps passive hurt tank the most so I would first look at those things but i definitely think there are ways to show people how fun tanking can be. landing a knife as JQ is just so satisfying and people don't even know yet.
ngl, on my first day playing support on 6v6 I thought that I always needed to be healing but after playing like, idk 1.5h a day since then I did adapt to 6v6. Today I played qp before going to comp, and, omg, the difference is big, the game looked so slow to me, I had so much more fun on 6v6, there was always smtg happening.
Btw, I played as tank too and it's so much more enjoyable than before, now I can play much more freely as tank bc Ik there is someone protecting my back.
i'm glad to hear you feel the change too! 5v5 is just so slow and so much sustain. I love the fast action of 6v6 and constant play making. there's always something to do and always someone to attack who made a mistake and in 6v6 you can punish anyone who steps too far out of place.
Yes! People for some reason say that 5v5 is more competitive and fast paced, but with 6v6 there's this ebb and flow; a truly competitive feel to it where you're always busy, no matter the role. In 5v5, there is so much downtime it's not even funny.
At this point i feel like they should've replaced 5v5 with 6v6 for this test, both comp and unranked, this experiment has kind of been setup for failure due to 3 factors, marvel rivals, holiday season and the fact 5v5 still exists and people can just ignore the 6v6, because for whatever reason, the devs only look at the test by queue times instead of taking genuine feedback and make decisions based on that feedback at least that's what it seems like, if 6v6 doesn't replace 5v5, then it's gg for overwatch, marvel rivals will take over the hero shooter genre, hell it already is taking over by simply being a significantly better game
The support part you addressed is interesting.
In 5v5, at first it felt like support was free food. It really was, too...they'd been warned 6 whole months prior. This caused a massive exodus of support players in S1 and fucked queue times more than RQ had done in OW1 for like a week before they removed basically all MM rules and lied about it. And the new hero was boring/generic, clearly catered to attract DPS players. Eventually this issue led to a need for obscene sustain which was always going to cause problems.
After S9, though, metas for supports have been healbot or be a DPS with no inbetween; it's felt like agency and carry potential was lost in favour of doling out sustain and attracting DPS players since the beginning. The DPS passive and HP pools caused so many problems while even making those it sought to deal with worse and at the same time broke the dps role by widening the gap between the meta and non-meta heroes. And the worst part is that they tested this exact passive in an alpha with pros and streamers before the first closed beta for OW2 and the feedback was overwhelmingly that it was terrible for the game.
In the 6v6 test, the DPS passive and healthpools still fucking with breakpoints do make support feel like they need to heal more, but frankly, as someone who was always a flex player that leaned toward support? It felt so much better than the game has for years despite this. Every single decision suddenly matters; if i choose to heal the wrong target, my team is punished, if I choose to go for some damage or an aggressive play at the wrong time, my team is punished. If I make smart plays, my team benefits. This is what I loved about Overwatch. My choices matter in this mode despite it being blatantly set up to fail.
The last 2 years, choices have just...not felt important since around S3 I think (can't recall exactly) but problems were blatant long before that.
Atm, though. Marvel Rivals is scratching the itch as a competitive player who truly loved Overwatch (and I still do, if we're talking what it used to be) Not only that, but they're not scared to make heroes with interesting kits that are niche; most OW2 heroes have been so painfully generic with the exceptions of Ramattra and Life Weaver. At least JQ is cool despite the basic kit.
"Every single decision suddenly matters; if i choose to heal the wrong target, my team is punished, if I choose to go for some damage or an aggressive play at the wrong time, my team is punished. If I make smart plays, my team benefits. This is what I loved about Overwatch. My choices matter in this mode despite it being blatantly set up to fail."
I love the way you wrote this. games and their replay ability depend on making you feel like you could have had an impact. 6v6 in all it's flaws still makes you feel like every decision you made mattered, that you had the tools to change the outcome, and if you failed you wanted to queue back up and try again.
the degradation of player choice and impact has been slow so it's not super obvious as one solid culprit but it's why i think marvel Rivals capitalized so hard right now. there's so many big plays that happen in Rivals that despite it being unbalanced is still fun. I made another simple video talking about my experiences with Rivals that'll come out tomorrow but I am absolutely loving how fun Rivals has been and how simple it has been to get into. I still love Overwatch and it's world, I hope they bring it around, but i feel the competitive game bug biting me for Marvel Rivals.
The truth is, supports are overly coddled because the devs:
1. Don't know how to play the game, and keep buffing support because that's how they get carried when they play
2. Know that support spends the most money between mercy and kiri mains and keeps them strong to keep them appealing and thus keep milking those characters for skin money
The reason why supports became so broken were in the beginning of the game people refused to adjust to learn how to play for themselves, instead they overbuffed them to help them deal with being bad and kept buffing.
look into the first month of ow2 to see just how much they buffed supports to compensate for lack of skill
In time where everyone is playing marvel rivels .
Thank you for your sacrifice
6v6 wasn't even the problem double shield was. and really it was the addition of sigma and Baptist immortality
You can run reworked orisa sigma bastion and now only sigma has a shield and bastion has turret form on a cooldown
So it falls flat on its face just revert the health pools
Alternative idea:
a lot of bunker doesn't work if bastion is a tank. you can't run all 3 of them at once and bunker is restricted to only one shield because he wouldn't have one
Abilities:
weakened tank form on his E
weakened turret on his SHIFT
Artillery on his Q
And his heal on RIGHT CLICK
All on a cooldown... making him and walking arsenal with different abilities and an interesting tank character
yeah the aoe sustain did not help with the immortality. I think a lot of people just didn't understand what is making heroes strong. i think the sustain and denial are bad things for a shooter. i think if rivals has taught us anything it's that people like offensive big play making abilities and i hope overwatch one day goes that direction again.
@arinrobinson3898 not only do people want to make plays but they want it to be challenging to do so when genji uses blade he is in your face and all of his cards are on the table there is intensity and risk involved if I play poorly I die same with tracer
then you have characters like sojourn or soldier or cassidy that can do the same behind a shield and just laser everyone but there are way more Genji and tracer onetricks (me being one of the genji otps) because the character is an adrenaline rush to play and not just a meta pick
Marvel rivals isn't winning because its balanced its winning because its way more fun to play and rewards that intense gameplay
That's a lot of typing sry lol
As an old tank player- playing 6v6 is bringing back old tank tactics- getting far more agressive at times, and (some of the time) pulling off big plays! It wasn't intentional, just old instincts kicked in- oh look I can probably charge in there, and get 3 kills etc!
Open Queue with 2 tanks is usually good- but this is on another level again- more freedom, and the weird thing- team play! I think oh, I'm dead, I overextended- then the other tank or a squishy saves my ass! And the other weird thing- it's often a DPS that saves me, not necesarily a support- very cool!
And the same thing on the enemy team- I'm chasing Mei with DVA- Mei's both cooldowns have gone, and she's low on HP- dead meat- then a support and a DPS on her team move in, heal her and provide so much pressure on me, I've got to back off with matrix up or be demeched! And I'm not pissed off- as it was great game play, and they deserved that win!
rivals doesnt feel as good as overwatch but after trying it i can see it being some kind of competition that should scare overwatch
ITS FREAKING SPIDERMAN IN A HERO SHOOTER
Yeah rivals doesn't look as smooth. I can't put my finger on why that is but the idea and how it plays is solid and in games that's all that matters. I'm a harsh critic and even I am playing it now.
@arinrobinson3898 Rivals doesn't allow crouching to avoid head shots, and it's a rougher experience over all. But it's a more fun option as a casual game. I've been playing both Rivals and OW lately, and prefer OW solo; until my friends get on, then we play Rivals.
@ I have been hitting a button to crouch so often in rivals and nothing happens. It's hard muscle memory to break.
@@arinrobinson3898Seriously! I hope they patch that, but it's not very likely.
What I've been spamming since S9 S11 is that "meaningful interaction" is crucial to good player experience, regardless of the role, or even the format. Buffing HP doesn't soften counters - it reduces windows of opportunity to outplay the counter.
There are obviously still problems with balance and design within 6v6, but the reason it feels better is because the amount of things that can be meaningfully interacted with has increased. You can actually feel and see your impact.This is what players have been missing!
Reverting S9, subsequent damage compensation, and removing the role passives would make the game much better. They should balance from that point onwards.
I agree completely!
My queue times are shorter than 5v5. I’m not aware of anybody preferring 5v5.
I've seen some comments on reddit and online. hard to say without data but I have seen more people prefer 6v6 online as well. i know my queue times have been all over the place with 6v6 but not in a bad way. some days tank was longest, others dps, others support. hard to tell without a whole season of just 6v6.
Believe it or not, some ppl have said they prefer 5v5
@@arinrobinson3898 yeah my queue times have been better in 6v6 than they’ve been in 5v5 lately. I really hope they keep it in the game.
@@hectordiaz1575 I can believe there are some that prefer it but it seems like a minority from my experience. Hopefully they’ll keep both modes.
My queue times in 6v6 for tank and support always say 15+ minutes but somehow i always find a game within the first two mins. Somehow my 5v5 queues say 4-6 minutes and they end up lasting 7+, aint no way people are playing 5v5 more than 6v6
The fact is devs spending a lot of time implementing 5v5 or roadhog rework or ANY big changes, and they just never judge once if its good or not. They just leave it in the game for YEARS when we instantly saw worse variables in the format.
Enjoying 6v6 at the moment going forward I wouldn't mind staying with this format haven't had this much fun in a while
I'm glad to hear it! I love 6v6
I've been having some great games playing Zarya in 6v6, I don't even bother touching Tank in 5v5.
it's so nice playing tank and knowing you can outplay the other tanks. also 2.5 second zarya bubbles in 6v6 means you are always full charge! it's pretty fucking crazy.
@@arinrobinson3898yeah having a meaningful Tank exchange feels so much better than playing Rock Paper Scissors all game. The balance is a little wacky but overall feels so much better to play. In an ideal world they would've balanced it closer to the 6v6 Workshop code.
Same here. Completely abandoned the tank role in OW2 and became a support main since it’s the only role I felt like I was doing at least something in. Now that 6v6 is back, I can finally play tank again (mainly DVA and JQ) and I am having a blast!
I think the main issue with most of the incredibly powerful support abilities is that they're reactive instead of pro active. Imagine if suzu wasn't a denial, but a deterrent instead. Instead of immortallity and a free 110 heal cleanse, imagine if it prevented debuffs for like 2 seconds and gave a damage (and healing) reduction. Then it'd feel a lot less frustrating because then you wouldn't get punished for hitting your abilities, you'd get punished for mistiming them.
That would reduce a lot of frustrations I have with supports right now.
I agree! Reactive abilities are never as much fun as predictive ones or feel as satisfying. I actually made a video on what I would do to fix kiriko. I'd be curious what you thought of them.
ua-cam.com/video/vpPe0J4vvvE/v-deo.html
tank role feels much better overall as you don't have to counter swap anymore to guarantee wins. but if you get a bad tank your team and enemy team has 2 tanks that play together, your team is toast.
I came back to the game recently and I hated how a tank could just jump into back line and not get punished for it. Now that we have 2 tanks mauga can’t just charge through and try to kill supports for example
Exactly! Mistakes need to be punished and if they can't be it's just frustrating.
Tank queue time is high because there are a lot of players wanting to play tank. The concern was about dps having high queue times, which it doesn’t.
True, sometimes I log on for tank, only to play dps since support and sank queues are like 3-5 minutes lol
6v6 is only better mode IF they make main and off tank roles. If there is a slight chance of double shields, no thanks. I take 5v5 every time over that chance.
I don't understand how people enjoy shooting double shields, it was the most hated meta in OW, now it's good to have that chance again?? What? why?
It's lunacy!
Hog in 5v5 is an immortal god oneshotting people or perma dead because he gets countered. In 6v6 he has so much more skill expression with his old right click and a better risk/reward ratio while also not instantly being a throw if they decide to counter you.
Some heroes really shine in 6v6 like moira and junk, but others benefit from 5v5. Like widow.
And we all know how much everyone loves widow
When ow2 came out I almost quit, but ended up having to admit I was having more fun, mainly because of the faster pace and greater freedom of movement with the extra space. However, I've grown tired of tanks that won't die and can't be punished. In a recent game I walled off a way overextended Rein and he actually died but got rezzed through a hole in the wall before we could react (we need to talk about rez btw). I then used Blizzard and right before he dies he gets nano. I think it took ANOTHER wall before we could finally kill him. We basically had to kill him three times before he was finally dead. Of course, yes, they at least had to use an ult, which felt fair, but the same thing would have resulted with a simple suzu or pull. It feels so good now that tanks actually die when you wall them!
One thing that sucks though is that now tank synergies matter again and you will lose games simply because people refuse to play tanks that make sense. Also, half of your games now devolve into Rein/Zar, which is fun, but gets monotonous. I remember this same problem in ow1.... basically rein/zar or lose (I'm talking metal ranks here) probably because that's the easiest to implement synergy.
All in all, team fights are too long (another problem that was in ow1). I think either lower everyone's health or, better still, drastically reduce healing output. Also, spawn time needs to be increased so teams can't keep stalling endlessly since stuff doesn't die and you can survive a 4v6 long enough to keep getting fresh teammates back.
Oh, and there's way too many ults. But that could be fixed easily by adjusting the cost.
Widow needs to be heavily nerfed (what's your take on one-shots, btw) since with Sombra no longer having enough stealth to get to her before two teammates are dead the fact that every lane is cluttered now means she's basically untouchable.
Staggering is also so much worse now than ever and i think part of the problem is that when people see three other teammates nearby they think they can take the fight not realizing that that still loses badly verses six.
I agree with a lot of this. I think everything season 9 should be reverted, healing should be nerfed, DPS passive should just be removed. This means more stuff will die faster by everyone and healing and damage doesn't feel inconsistent. Some abilities like zarya bubbles last too long now and need that larger window off vulnerability back. Immoralities should be removed and replaced with play making abilities this will mean stuff dies faster as well. I made a video on how to fix kiriko if you want an example. Fights stall out cause stuff isn't dying so we need to adjust the abilities keeping them alive cause it's not their raw health.
Widow is a problem of either level design. Some levels she's a god and others she's a throw pick. I think I would first experiment with level design on long sight line maps. The other solution is take away her one shot and make her ult a one shot mechanic instead. Or make her charge up like Hawkeye in rivals by looking at someone first. That's where I would start.
Oh yeah and that killing a tank 3 times is one of my big complaints of 5v5. Since you can't out play a tank through abilities it just feels like you're shooting a wall and to see a res and feel like you need to do it 3 times isn't engaging. You didn't feel like you out played the tank, it just felt like a chore, so it wasn't rewarding even when they finally died for real.
My only issue with 6v6 is the tank combos. Sometimes it feels like you lose right at the selection screen. Also playing tank makes me wish this game had friendly fire so I could pin a roadhog co-tank off the map, playing with him was miserable in OW1
Haha well lifeweaver does exist still! I didn't mind the tank combos but i had an easy time playing quickplay. i wonder how it would fare in a competitive ranking. i know my experience is different for a lot of players so i'd really like to see what it's like when everyone plays at their ranks and what flaws start to show.
@@arinrobinson3898 I'm mostly drawing on my OW1 memory so hopefully it's different in the current environment!
that's just inevitable. but knowing that you now have two tanks who can potentially switch instead of just one tank gives the tank role so much more versatility in player decisions. what feels worse is a tank getting hard countered, or a game devolving into counterswap fest
Just play Sig or doom if you get a hog, Sig is probably better though to pair with hog.
Rein is a big problem to me he feels very clunky, I feel like taking away the other fire strike while not compensating with anything other than shield health encourages the boring part of his kit, also makes it easier for the other team to go ram and then boom! Rein is useless now. and I know they have to nerf tanks or else they’ll dominate but I feel like if the tanks don’t dominate they’ll be waaay less fun. Damage is too high and with the dps passive still up healing cannot keep up. Either nerf damage or do another health raise to keep up. I feel like everyone explodes. Dps like bastion and mei are literally tanks with the amount of health they have. Overall I have a lot of gripes with the mode
Yeah I'm fine with giving tanks some fighting power. I don't think the tein nerfs were needed. In order for people to want to play them they still need to feel powerful and they don't in 5v5 and in 6v6 with supports and DPS having so much control they need some too.
i didnt like the 6v6 test becasue doomfist was absolutly dumpstered sure the other tanks play well and can be fun but my main is absolute trash because of the nerfs for 6v6 so makes me hate it
8:07 why is it that when someone has a preference that's different to someone else they don't know how to play the game like the philosophy of these game modes aren't different from the bottom up
What are your tattoos?
oh, fun question! i just have the one right now. it's Nico Robin from One Piece. one of her defining moments from enies lobby. I designed it myself and a wonderful artist in LA who does manga panels did it for me.
@@arinrobinson3898fire bro
Love your videos. I have so many problems with this damn game for years and years.. Nice hearing someone else talking concisely about it.
thank you for watching and taking notice! i love talking design about games. i got more ideas in the future after i get back from the holidays!
i don't know if i am misunderstanding you but doesn't a "longer tank queue time" mean that there is more people playing tank than support and dps? in ow1 there was 10+ min for dps and almost insta queues for tanks because of the low amount of tank players and the high amount of dps players?
yes, i might have gotten my brain mixed up in the video and i tried to correct but failed a bit. but the problem is not enough tank players to balance out the support and dps players. i think that's the fault of balance, design, and lack of tank options though.
the only people that i have seen who dont like 6v6 are the OW2 only tanks. they are all only gold/ below and complain that tank sucks bcz they aren’t invincible. tanks not being invincible is pretty much the entire point of 6v6 it brings tanks down to an even playing field with the other roles but tank synergy helps remove tank counter swapping. even with a nerfed doomfist it feels 10x more fun than solo tanking as doom. if you are doing good on tank you get to now deal with being counter picked.
I don’t know if I’m the only one but I be getting 10min queues on tank on 6v6 while having insta queues on the other roles
I get at most 1:40 for tank que usually way less
I definitely felt that the first day especially.
Space control matters more in 6v6 and it's pretty obvious when one team is doing that better. Overwatch 2 is honestly a better casual game. I don’t mean to say there’s no room for a competitive scene but 5v5 has moved the game away from that. Space control has become far less important with no offtank and heroes are less lethal as a result of S9 changes and supports becoming more survivable. At one point in OW1 you could barely peek without instadying during the Hog/Sigma/Widow/Hanzo/Zen meta.
I don’t think this was healthy for the game either but OW2 is the complete opposite, sometimes it feels like group up simulator-even Tracer is sticking right by her team because there’s no point in hard flanking (I especially lament the loss of assassin Tracer playstyle, it was far harder to pull off but now Tracer feels like a better Reaper, just soft angle spam. Compare how kevster plays in OW2 to OW1.
I hope 6v6 becomes a permanent thing, I hated 5v5 solo tanking. And I have been playing open queque ranked for the most part because its more fun. Untill Mauga killed that with goats 2.0. His shout is out of this world. Life steal and dmg reduction on multiple tanks who also have headshot reduction already ...
6v6 2 2 2 is the best of both worlds. Structure + not solo tank
"6v6 is too Chaotic and not as much fun."
The whole point of 6v6 was to be chaotic and fun 5v5 is the exact opposite because I don't want Support be the deciding factor of who wins the encounter on/near point ana nade being 100% Heal reduction, that's been bad since her launch, and kiri suzu just being dumb.
Tanks not having as much control to be a threat on the encounter makes it less fun dps passive also factoring in to that problem, if only they tweak the (instant win buttons) like nade only reducing healing by half to still feel it's effect, but not be a full counter, suzu being similar but not being able to cleanse, and bap lamp just being tweaked to prevent a death and heal 25% health (lamp is consumed) mainly to say shutdown potential should be more on tanks(CC,Healing Nullification,Roots etc) and enable potential like Nano as an example should be on supports while dps has their typical impact as setting up kills and bigger kill potiential.
We really need to go back to supports either doing mass damage or mass healing, zen, Lucio, and Ana are perfect. They can all well and the only centrist is Lucio which is perfect. He does enough to help and still be impactful and thats what he needs to do. Kiri and Bap are the worst designed supports ever. Talk about Brig all you want but healing by damage is awesome and they really just need to tone her down (when shes a problem, shes fine now).
I thought kingmaker was a lot of fun and should have a spot in qp the way mystery heros does. no way to do a comp kingmaker though, it's too unbalanced.
I can see that. Arcade works great but you couldn't pay me to try and balance that for comp lol
People like to complain about supports being the issue why tanking isnt fun, but nobody talks about tank just being basically a dps with more health and less abilities. With some tanks you dont even have any chance in a 1v1 duel against most dps. As a tank you should have the playmaking capabilities and not the duelists (dps). Yes with very good teamplay with the second tank you can do a lot of playmaking, but a dps can do the same without requiring the other dps to support them doing so. Even if 5v5 tanking is much more stressful, its also more rewarding, risky plays high rewards, but in 6v6 your teammates not peeling quickly for you is already a risky play with no reward.
6:38 the double take of realizing, oh, thats my name in that game. Small world. Wasnt expecting to see that when I clicked here.
wait you're the mei?!
Who’s your pfp?
@@arinrobinson3898 nah they're the genji
@@yamnbam4346 just a piece done by an artist named Ilya Kuvshinov. Don't think there was a reference model for this one
Sat down playing ranked one night and i wanted to see just how broken support would be after i had gotten much better as a player (I originally was a 4250 support player during season 20 but switched to tank and hit 4400 a few times). I did this test somewhere around season 28 and all i did was picked mainly zen but i would swap to ana or bap and just did as much dmg as was reasonable, whilst still healing my team.
A few days later i climbed from low masters to 4270 with a over 73 win rate.
Sure i had been a support player prior to the "test" but at this point i hadn't really played the role all that much for 2 ish years because i was focused on being the best tank i could be as i was starting to do some scrims at this point.
So i still felt washed at support but was still absolutely destroying lobbies due to how extremely strong supports were back then and they are even worse now. The only players that i would say were genuinely good at the role were pretty much all top 100 players. Anything below that would be somebody I could heavily outperform on the same role most of the times.
Haven't really played a full season of ow2 since i really don't like 5v5 so i haven't gone for top 500 but gm is still by far the easiest to reach on support. I wonder how the support players which are most of the times the worst players on the team, have convinced blizzard that their role isn't broken since 2018.
Sorry for the rant but im sick of blizzards babying of the support role
Hopefully the timing thing will be perceived more objectively, in terms of the data I mean. People playing Overwatch but not 6v6 is different than people not playing Overwatch at all. I’m pretty sure they’ll be able to see that. This holds my cynicism at bay.
Imma be real. I think this is the first time, in a long time, that I’ve actually been enjoying my self and then lost. So often in 5v5 it feels like I’m being held hostage by my own team.
Tank is soooooo much better. There’s just more to do. It comes back to something I heard someone else say: Playing tank in 5v5 feels like out of 10 possible decisions you can make, once 1 of them is correct. Otherwise you just feel like you made a mistake.
I have frequently said it feels like i'm being held hostage in 5v5. when you don't have the team coordination it feels like you can't get anything done. then if you tank in 5v5 and you die your team loses and blames you. it's too much pressure for one role. the only job you have as a tank in 5v5 is not die and that's not fun.
6v6 has been much more enjoyable for me and i missed it but with marvel rivals i wonder if it's too little too late. had so much fun last night it's hard to go back to grinding OW comp again.
@ Oh I’d never try to convince anyone to go back to 5v5 comp after playing Rivals. 6v6 though? 6v6 is far closer to a peak that Overwatch achieved which Rival isn’t currently. Like you said, Rivals is fun but it’s not peak Overwatch.
But I’m with you. If they don’t take 6v6 seriously, I think lots of people will be done.
It's a bummer to say cause I love overwatch but there's no more story, no cinematics, no love, boring balance, I'm just sad to see it's potential going to waste. It feels like all they care about is selling skins now and without the love for the game it just feels so empty.
@@arinrobinson3898 ah dude you’re getting me down but you’re not wrong. The two big, no, gigantic mistakes they made were abandoning narrative direction and the jump to 5v5.
More and more of my friends are just drifting away. In large part it’s become a generic live service game. These seasonal events are mainly superficial, like you said skins.
It’s a shame because I think people don’t care that they add new heroes and maps - some of the highlight content.
The timing was definitely a concern I had. Why do it during Christmas holidays when most people won’t be able to play for nearly half the test..
We need more tanks to help others get into the role cause alot of people just dont like the tanks we have atm for offer. Plus tank is so fun for me in 6v6 then 5v5, I rather not get auto stun lock to death when playing ball into a team of full counters and my supports go welp nothing we could of did there.
it's a shame cause there's so many great tanks already and i think it's hindered by the fact that 5v5 they were buffed to just be punching bags. immortalities counter their ults. and they don't get the dps passive so their damage is inconsistent. then the devs wonder why no one is playing tanks... like guys please lol JQ is actually so much fun for me as a dps player but counter swapping, the blame, the sustain, immortalities, all keep me away from playing tank.
@@arinrobinson3898 indeed I love most the tanks beside the ones who do nothing but be a wall and shoot. aka orisa and mauga and even hog.
I agree with this take 100%. You can make tank more fun if you promote and create tanks that are fun to play! I ADORE Wrecking Ball and JQ because playing them feels like a constant adrenaline rush with pretty high skill expression. Tanks like Orisa on the other hand feel grating to play imo, and Orisa is usually meta most of the time.
Yeah, playing Orisa and playing against her is boring. Orisa being meta means that just being alive as a tank means more than being proactive as a tank. Many people want that adrenaline rush you talk about. The feeling of landing your shots and out playing your opponents. A lot of tanking in overwatch 2 is just surviving unfortunately.
supports having less agency just makes it so we depend way more on our teams being competent, and I don't think I gotta explain why that fucking sucks
That's why I think supports should get more abilities that allows them to be proactive. Suzu keeps people alive but if that player is useless keeping them alive doesn't help much. It's also frustrating to play against. Offensive support abilities give better agency and player choice as well as counter play. I made a video on how I would fix kiriko going over ideas like this. Perhaps you might like some of the ideas I came up with.
6:27 tanks are also much more easily countered and much more regularly gutted which makes it hard to main any individual tank. You can do 2 but 1 means you're throwing at least some games.
Yeah its not the perfect solution but it offers so many remedies to problems that the dev team havent managed to solve with 5v5 the past 2 years.
Agreed, I'd rather solve the problems of 6v6 vs 5v5 any day.
this title is very true, and I'm glad you clarified it's still better to not confuse people lol, it's still better imo because hiding the problem (in this case) is actually just mitigating or making it less of a problem, it's hidden because it's smaller
my que's for tank have exclusively a minute, I've not seen tank que be a problem but maybe Im just playing at the best times
i think it's more so that other queues go up cause there's not enough tank players. dps and supports don't like 8 minute queues. high elo would get bad with like 20-30 minutes at times.
You pretty much said it. I quit because I almost never got the opportunity to do something other than be shot at and when I finally do one of the overtuned supports swoops in with and shuts me down with a cooldown or even worse: undoes it. I became a lucio onetrick after dropping Rein and Zarya.
yup! exactly, I do believe tank is a fun role but no one wants to be the punching bag that gets all the blame.
As a masters/gm support player whos never played ow1, 6v6>5v5 and its not even close. Every role feels more powerful and "safer" yet at the same time more risky due to the added tank (like you said, higher risk and higher reward). At first i thought support would just be a healing simulator, yet that wasnt the case since i was able to keep the default state of damage while focusing a few more seconds of healing compared to 5v5.
Even heroes who usually dont do much damage such as Lifeweaver i had been able to get to around 10k damage just from the sheer pressure he can dish out against tanks's heads. Moira can play with her two tanks as a third tank, essentially being immortal if she uses her healing orb properly, Ana nade can be blocked easier yet at the same time landing one feels more rewarding, Mercy can never stop moving (though i still want the action state cancellation back) etc
Support just feels better because they can do so much more while feeling super rewarding when it happens, at the cost of your entire team dying, which usually was the responsibility of Tank or dps. Supports do need to be nerfed (support passive needs to be removed, global healing can stay) though.
The only frustration comes from tanks feeding as if theyre god tank from 5v5, leading to players healbotting. I still remember a Juno of mine having 12k healing on a 3rd round of control, claiming that support actually feels balanced because they have to heal now. She had 1k damage compared to my 7k dmg and 8k healing on Ana, yet we still lost because this supposed balanced healer couldnt take the pressure off of us, especially since healing tanks is 100000% easier then healing anyone else who are in dangerous positions
I’ve seen multiple CCs comment on 6v6 potentially getting railroaded/not given a fair shot and I’m over here thinking “this is fun enough. Bring this back permanently”
I don't enjoy 5v5 anymore at all
I played 6v6 and had more fun. Still a lot of the frustrations of OW2 plus some of the frustrations of late OW1. I had a really bad streak yesterday, teammates that obviously didn't know how to play and every lobby just dominated by Zarya.
Support is absolutely not miserable in 6v6. It's frantic, but not horrid. What I've learned is that I no longer enjoy dps at all. None of the characters are fun for me anymore. All the kits feel very samey and they didn't used to be.
TBH I think the basis for tank should be the heavy in TF2. They should go for more heavy frontliners. There's so many ways to do it to create interesting kits that are full of interesting damage and space making abilities.
If the current 6v6 became the game would I play more than Rivals? No. Rivals I actually enjoy all the roles. A lot of the design decisions they've made for OW2 to make it more sweaty and competitive just doesn't appeal to me. That's not what OW was designed for and many character identities are now tied to playstyles that just don't work and aren't fun in OW2 and no amount of reworking while keeping them feeling similar to how they played originally is going to work. I used to be a support Symmetra main. She plays nothing like that now. I used to enjoy Sombra, I really loved the Mirrorwatch version of her. I enjoy Lifeweaver but he's got nothing on Symmetra v2. I think Moira has one of the best implemented kits in the game, it's so smooth. Ana is still one of the best designed heroes. I havent touched tank in so long I dont know how any of them play anymore because the experience was so horrible.
it's interesting cause I hear some people say they cater too much to casuals and other people say they cater too much to pros and high elo players. it feels like they aren't really catering to either well and it's hurting them. I think there are ways to make most people happy but they seem to miss the mark a lot. I know for me I love the serious competitive side but the game doesn't feel good the higher you climb anymore. I got bored trying to rank up. Rivals on the other hand is crazy. so many wacky interactions and abilities but it feels so good when you win and feel like you outplayed people. the interactions between heroes is just so much fun. it's gonna be hard for me to put down for awhile.
@@arinrobinson3898 and IMO that's actually where OW went wrong. They doubled down too much on streamlining everything to make it consistent and removed all the fun. This is especially important because the game was originally designed with a range of characters that used different types of player skills, not just shooter skills, like Mercy, Rein, Symmetra, Mei and even original Torb.
The game was not designed to be a straight up shooter and it was more fun when it wasn't.
Other things I think hve made it worse is making Symm DPS instead of doubling down and making more supports that weren't healers. Would Bap be so awful if he kept immortality but didn't heal? Would Brig be so bad if she gave overhealth but no healing? If they hadn't doubled down so much they wouldn't have needed role locks.
I think they have just consistently got the tank design philosophy wrong. As I said, they should be heavy frontliners. Lower their HP, give them good damage and damaging abilities on par with DPS or their defensive abilities for the sustain and space making. Why is Hazard fun? Because he's aggressive and mobile and deals damage while making space.
I don't play comp so I'm definitely casual, I've played like maybe 100 comp games in the entire history of OW. But I've watched top 500 streamers and honestly the games don't look any different apart from the skill of the plays invovled. It's still people mostly insta dying, still a teammate throwing a tantrum and throwing, still someone sticking to a character that is being completely hard countered. The skill level is different, but the experience seems identically miserable.
Whereas in Rivals I enjoy all the roles, most games I fill because I am still playing someone I enjoy, I'm not being forced to play someone or something I don't want to play, I can switch if it isn't working and the kits are largely fun. Sure some are a bit lacklustre and the game lacks a lot of feedback, but at least the soundscape works. When someone is behind me I can hear them. In OW2 Rein can march right up to me behind me and I won't hear a thing.
Tanks in Marvel Rivals are varied and fun
5v5 just feels like crap tbh. Tanking is miserable, it's like trying to fill a leaking bucket of water. I rarely feel like there was actually anything I could do differently to win tbh. I mostly play 5v5 open queue ranked actually, because it's most similar to the game that I originally fell in love with, but the 5v5 format solo-tanking just sucks. I lose to widow players, doomfist in our backline, etc, and I just can't do everything. This game seriously just doesn't work 5v5.
6v6 has it's problems too, obv, but yeah, it's way more fun, it's overwatch. 5v5 just doesn't feel like overwatch
idk about you but 6v6 feels miserable as a dps. you dive someone and because of the lessened pressure on the tank you suddenly have the enemy tank and the entire scooby gang on your ass. I would be COMPLETELY okay with this if it wasn't for the massive amounts of CC tanks dish out. If the CC wasn't prevalent i would love that shit. for supp I main ana and tbh the one time i tried her i just got hazard + doomfist fucked every single team fight so that was miserable but when i used to play her in ow1 it felt much better than playing her in ow2.
i know youll say "dont dive alone" but if the target is off position and half hp obviously i go in. the problem is the tank mobility, doomfist and hazard, some of the supports being almost unkillable (moira, kiri) and some other minor annoyances make this painful. at least in 5v5 when the annoying ass doom or hazard dives a backline hero, your tank + the other 3 players can run into the enemy team and kill them
I've played OW since open beta and at this point, I prefer 5v5. Maybe it's the characters I'm maining these days (Doom and Tracer) but I don't enjoy either of them much in this 6v6 test. Doom has lower hp and longer cooldowns so I have to be in and out super fast, then do nothing for a long time. And with Tracer, every angle I take I run into 2+ enemies, often a tank included, and feel like I have less chance to use the character's dueling potential. Playing my secondary hitscan characters felt a bit more chill than 5v5 though. Get to sit back and shoot tanks most of the time.
that's interesting cause i'm a Tracer main and I like that in 6v6 i feel like i have more options as i can duel tanks, dps, or supports. it's constantly shifting to being aware as to who steps out of place and who makes a mistake. in 5v5 i felt like i was just shooting the tank to apply pressure and force a suzu or something. i knew i couldn't kill the tank but i also couldn't leave them alone. i just wasn't a fan of pumping damage into tanks.
it's interesting though now that OW has created two formats and impossible to make everyone happy. i don't know where they'll go from here now.
Tbf, Doom will probably end up needing another rework to function in 6v6. The fact they nerfed his CD of all things shows that they think he's a problem in this context, too. I'd take him getting reverted back to his DPS form as he's somehow more obscenely unhealthy in his tank form despite losing the one shot cheeses.
IMO role lock will stay 5v5 there’s almost no way around it. With that we have a game mode that has received 0 balance updates. Open q. I truly believe open q (min 1 max 3) 6v6 is going to replace open q 5v5. Q times are no longer an issue, the playerbase is less split, comp stability will come to open q, and most of all they won’t have to balance open q 5v5. It honestly makes sense now why open q received no balance updates. They probably didn’t want to waste dev resources on something that will be removed. With the wording of team 4 “Is there a way we could have both simultaneously.” If they do role lock 5v5 and open q 6v6 the answer is yes.
I am curious too try open q max 3. Maybe it'll be a compromise that works. Only way to know is too test but I know I hated king maker, 5v5 is boring, and I love 6v6 but they did nothing to address the problems still. Maybe open q is the way to go.
@ I wasn’t the biggest fan of kingmaker either tbh. I enjoyed min 1 max 2 but with no proper tank balance it’s a wash. I’m really excited for the open q 6v6 it helps fix most of the format issues.
As someone who dislikes 6v6. I dont dislike 6v6, I dislike the idea of bringing it back.
My issue with overwatch over the past 4 years has always been that, i really cant tell what this game is trying to be anymore. And the doubling down on 5v5 gave me hope that maybe OW was starting to really come together And the devs were getting close to how THEY wanted the game to be.
Like the quote "a game for everyone is a game for knowone."
Is this game for competitive players? Why cant i watch live comp or tournament matches in-game? Why cant i have comp and casual guilds or clans to build my team work skills? Why is there such soft lock on heroes like moira for "casual players"? Arent the casuals the ones that complain about that character the most?
Is this game for casuals? Why is there so much fomo for casual modes then? Why doesnt workshop have more features?
Lets throwaway the whole casual/competitive player thing. What about all the half assed character reworks? Pharah is STILL in the skybox and sombra just gets deleted? What sense is this?
And yet the community decided the most immportant thing is a format change. And anyone who disagrees is labeled like some opposing political party. Straight up monkey behavior.
One of my big complaints is that I don't know who the game is for. My casual gold friends think they cater to pros and high elo too much. I reassure them they aren't balancing for the top either. Then I heard Aaron Keller in an interview say they want a serious competitive shooter, when I thought they were trying to make a more casual one. So I am just very confused. I wish I knew exactly what their vision was cause I could understand if they reached to change it into a game that wasn't for me anymore. Then my critiques might be meaningless. I have ideas on what the game could be and what I'd like it to be. I just know as an original overwatch competitive player I'm not having fun anymore. Like I said before though maybe I'm not the target audience anymore.
Why are you wearing a tank top in december
I live in Cali so it's usually not too bad but mostly it's because I broke my collar bone skateboarding a couple years ago. Ever since then it's never quite felt the same and tank tops are easier to take on and off than shirts after that.
Honestly I think 5v5 has done irreversible damage to the tank experience, it was miserable to play and will a sour taste in players mouths which is a shame as we’ve had some super cool tanks.
Idk what in support do these people mean, when support still has 3 second heal passive in 6v6 which means that you can't interact with them if they are behind the tanks in the backline
Most based 6v6 complaints I've seen so far.
I've put roughly 30 hours into tank this past week and it really does feel like there's an issue with the support play in this format, though I've oscillated back and forth with feeling whether it's skill issues vs match making issues. I wish we had the tighter requirements of comp matchmaking to really determine where the issues are but overall I've enjoyed 6v6 way more than 5v5.
I just hope they release patch notes because these s9 changes are not it, and some support changes will def make this game feel great again
They keep walking them back. I feel like we should just revert it and try new ideas.
@@arinrobinson3898 yea which makes it really inconsistent because some characters are basically playing pre s9 and some others are not which makes it even more unfun
Really good video wow, hope this vid pops off
Thank you!
Listening to the end I guess this is where we differ, I'd much rather lose a 5v5 then a 6v6
still way better than 5v5 cuz i can play mercy and not be borderline throwing
6v6 QP has given me exclusively landslide games, which is not how it is for 5v5 QP. Dunno if it's a matchmaking problem or a 6v6 problem.
That hasn't been my experience but it was for king maker and some people loved that mode. We might have been cursed by matchmaking one day.
Man, between PoE2 (already got many hours in despite being busy) and Rivals.. it's really hard to keep me in OW2 even though 6v6 is a better experience to me personally.. I just really dislike certain Hero designs (Kiri, Illari, Bap, Weaver, Cas, Widow) that just sucks enjoyment out of the game, for me, personally.
I personally really hate what they did to JQueen. Pushing into a team and punishing people out of position feels a fair amount less rewarding. I love how high risk high reward she is but gutting my self heal just for 100 extra health feels bad.
6v6 is so much better!
6:36 that's true but it's never going to be enough to make a REAL dent in evening out the queues, and there is no real solution to this tank will always be sub >33% of the playerbase that harms queue times I don't know why people keep trying to walk around this issue and pretend there's a solution to it cause your options is this or goats pick one
He quoted me from a previous video.
i agree with the mentallety of balencing it to be fun insted of making something that doen't work, work
hell i am a sombra otp and ppl told me to play other roles to get better
i started playing zen ana reaper etc but i didnt like tank at all
but then in ow2 they made junker queen and i fell in love
now i mainly play sombra, ana and queen
i'm not only a better player i olso have more FUN!
edit: i hope that they are not gonna keep nerfing and buffing heros to sell skins
coff coff, mythic widow coff coff they did sombra derty asf coff coff
Oh man Sombra players got done dirty. I'm sorry about that.
But yeah lots of times there's just not a hero yet that might appeal to players so just make more heroes! I don't like rein but I love JQ. We just need more options and more play making ability with them. Learning other roles does make people better players too. It always helped me a ton. It's why I always tried to keep up to date on each role.
Also I made a video of how I'd fix Sombra. Might be something you would like or have some thoughts on. I'm always curious what Sombra mains would think.
Completely disagree about kingmaker, the mode has potential, in it I felt what a rein zarya duo can do again before 6v6 test, it had unkillable ana problems, but in the end it worked and allowed different team comp matches
Also even if you think that you don't play with similar skilled player in unranked, you are. There is hidden qp mmr, in example I can say that my qp games in the end of ow1 were much more sweaty than ranked. System hasn't changed since
I don’t think 5v5 or 6v6 matters if it’s not fun to play. I’ve played a variety of genres of FPS/TPS with a variety of formats. There’s so many different approaches to handling formats but the most important pieces are the designs of the heroes. If the heroes are balanced a certain way then x format is bad for them/if there’s not another complimentary/adversarial character to match. The same extend outside of the shooter genre. Allowing players to achieve various power fantasies without sanitizing the fk out of.
They have the ability to add and subtract entire ability slots. To add and subtract entire movement options or even the entire kit. If you find that certain designs are problematic and you’ve tuned and tuned for years, perhaps you might want to try some new kits.
Even if they perfect the format, the issue is still the actual characters’ gameplay interactions/lack there of. I don’t really follow Esports, but perhaps ramping up how crazy the game can be will breath some new life into it. Competitive players will always find a way to be competitive. Realistically brining in A new character or A new smol format change isn’t going to really revolutionize the game and bring players running back in. It’ll at best slow the bleed of players. They are really going to have to look at the characters, gameplay modes, and options they give to players if they want a big return.
Well said! My videos have all been criticizing the kits being the problems in the game and not the balance. You can't fix a lot that doesn't work through balance you need to give players better tools. At least that's what I believe.
dude i played all roles and mainly played my favorite characters. doom, genji, lucio, kiri. those characters are the main characters i play and it felt amazing to play. i could just do my thing without feeling like i completely abandoned my team. sometimes i int if i miss some shot but also i get big plays when i hit them. the risk reward is there with 6v6. bring it to ranked remove 5v5
I mean yeah 6v6 is better but the games still not fun, i can’t describe what it is but I’ve genuinely felt like it’s cause it doesn’t have the old ui cause I just can’t explain it any other way, or maybe it still has the sequel kits instead of the original ones
I hate too fast que times. Few minute ques took us to talk about other things with my friends. OW2 is from sweatty game to the next
Havent touched 5v5 since classic came out.5v5 feels so bad in comparison its not fun at all
I think the issue is that support mains exist
As a support main its not fun half the time im eother healbotting or useless since ppl just wanna int like they always have. Taking away the tanks hp pool so they can be shredded in literal seconds isnt fun. You cant make mistakes as a tank anymore. 5v5 and 6v6 both have their flaws and im not sure its ever gonna be good.
i think you can make mistakes as tank but they are just punished much quicker if you don't know what you're doing. it's great counterplay but the learning curve OW2 tank players will have to endure now might make it tough. i think in the long run it'll be healthier for the game but it will be painful for people who relied heavily on just being unkillable before. that being said it means your ability as a support to do damage and outplay the enemy tanks is also greater. try to see when you can weave more damage in and only heal when people are below 50% health. remember, your tank won't need healing if you kill the people shooting at them!
whats ur peak? btw BASED takes
Thank you!
Pre season 9 GM 5 all roles and post season 9 I think I made it to m4 on all roles at least once. I play a lot less post season 9. My game sense is really good but mechanically top 500 players are just better.
5:19 Your fundamental understanding of how queue times work is backwards. Long queue times mean MORE people disproportionately are playing the role, not LESS. The concern was always with a disproportionate amount of dps players to the other roles, and dps queue times were high. We see this is backwards here, where tank is the most played role now, because it’s fun in 6v6
I misspoke in the video about making it seem like tank queue times are the issue when i meant to say the lack of tank players which would then effect the other role queue times.
I haven't been enjoying playing support. Support feels like you're heal Bottling. You'd think with the extra person being able to cover you, you'd have a better time.
But honestly it's worse in some bullying situations having the extra person just bullying me without any peels. 😩
Do you mind if I ask your rank? Just because for me it's felt the opposite. I only heal if someone is close to death though and I never use nades to Dave teammates only anti enemies lol my teammates should learn to stand behind cover cause I'm not nading them.
When you say make tanks for more I argee 100% I find hazard is so much fun and maybe I’m a little biased as already played a lot of tank but if tank role had more fun characters like hazard we would see more people playing tank
The 6v6 test was sabotaged. Released during Marvel Rivals launch and the holiday season. It kept the updated health pools, hitbox increases, kept some role passives, and didn't bother to rework or remove insane tank/support sustain abilities like Mauga's overdrive and Kiriko's cleanse. Also, why did they add pre-rework hog back? He feels awfully clunky now that we're used to the new one. Also, the fact that they even thought Kingsmaker was even worth testing shows you how much these devs don't have a sliver of common good game design. Not to mention my pc feels slower running 6v6 in this new engine compared to the og Overwatch. The old saying like @Samito says that Blizzard are master artists but not good at balancing at all.
Can't wait to hear the goats opinion
I really hope I didn't let you down!
@@arinrobinson3898 Didn't disappoint, super reasonable opinion as always. Just a quick thing on heal botting, I think a lot of tanks in this test are used to 5v5 hp, so they take a bit too much damage, forcing supports to have to heal more. I would assume people would get adjusted after like a month or two
@@Control_Plus_C i agree, i think it's just gonna take time for people to adjust. people need to time their abilities a lot more and be mindful of cover and that can't happen over night. i'd be curious to see how it is in a month of playing or preferably a whole season.
@@arinrobinson3898 a whole season, and ranked would really help, especially with rewards to draw in more casual players who wouldn't normally try it
Played both OW1 and OW1.5, 5v5 is still better.
anything that makes a game complicatd is good
even casual players dont care about a game that is too simple to understand , if overwatch wasnt disgustingly difficult to play, if genji combos didint require frame perfect reactions i wouldnt play him
7:08 so you don't know how human phycology works
I do not know the study of algae no.
6v6 is factually more chaotic, the problem of the game always has been that it requires and incredible amount of teamplay from strangers, and the more players you add in a team the more this problem is big so yes 6v6 IS more chaotic that 5v5. And it's arguably the most important thing in a game like this. Which could indirectly show that 5v5 is inevitably better that 6v6. What about 4v4 ? where is the right balance ? 5v5? 4v4 ?
I would argue 5v5 requires more team play as you can't fight the tanks alone and immortality abilities deny a lot more in 5v5. So playing around those is obnoxious as I feel like I need to bait them out and hope my team can do something after.
whenever a new round of complaints come out, i always feel like i caught a massive dub by not liking overwatch from the start. from goats meta to dev team swaps to 5v5, ive heard more complaining and dramas from this game through the years than from the ones i actually play lol
fwiw i gave the game another go with 5v5 since some of my friends play and ive actually been enjoying it. mostly because tank is so buffed in that mode that i can practically close my eyes and run around one shotting ppl with hog. have tried 6v6 a few times since they brought it back and so far ive found it just as boring as i found ow1 back when it launched. i dont enjoy the other roles and tank is not fun to me in 6v6. i think i just like running around as an op character more than i actually like the game 🤷
I clicked on 2 videos at once and i dont know on which im commenting. So i kinda agree with mos def but drake could still be labeled a rapper and popstar at the same time and 6v6 does sweeten things up
I also had that same problem with support players. They said it feels miserable but man, I love playing support in 6v6..I can do so much actually.. Feels nice. But you have to know when to heal, when to damage, when to peek since now support also can die easily, etc etc.. It's very dynamic. I like it.
Tank synergy still is as wonderful as I remember from ow1.
tank queue times are long because there's too many people playing tank....
Marvel rivals support lineup doesn't have any way of denying a death like ow supports do and that's why it plays so much better and why tanks feel more fun in that game.
Shockingly Loki actually does have a sort of immortality but it's less noticeable and harder to time. The immortalies in 5v5 format are super frustrating cause of how easy and often you see them. They still pop up in 6v6 but slightly less frustrating.
Let me introduce you to luna ult, mantis ult, loki and Adam mass rezt. Raccoon rez. Clearly you have not played rivals enough. Luna mantis is hard meta