THIS is what the game needs to address. “5v5 vs 6v6” is a distraction for real. It doesn’t matter how many tanks are on the field, crap like immortality field in an AOE will always ruin your experience
exactly, that's what i've been trying to get at it in all my videos. 6v6 will help some parts of playing tank and bring their health back down but the fundamental problems of these abilities will still exist. i'm also not asking for supports to be nerfed into oblivion but designed in a way that offers them more skill expression and through that skill expression ways to defend themselves as well.
getting 50% less focus fire and 50% less CC is a HUGE deal. it would mitigate it by HALF off rip. yes OW has unbalanced abilities, but these two ideas are not mutually exclusive. fixing both would help, but one of these issues is waaay less complicated to solve they've been been reworking heroes left and right and getting nowhere, so going back to 6v6 is the one hope tank players have coming anytime soon. i for one am not waiting for them to rework 10+ heroes before tank feels playable. marvel's out this year lmao
@@kwehst but you don’t get 50% less focus fire/ CC with 2 tanks on the field. I think ppl forgot how this worked. Teams would hard focus one tank with everything they had to bring it down, then turn and focus all their CC/ fire on the other tank. There was no dividing fire between the two tanks. You focused everything on the one that was more aggressive. One tank ate all the CC/ dmg and died.
Abilities like immortality field exist because of all the mass AoE instant death ults there are. They are a symptom not a cause. Everything should have some form of counter. Winston's ult isn't for killing people it's a survival and displacement/control tool. Not every ult is or has to be an I win button, that you can pop an ult against a well supported organised team and don't just instantly win is a good thing.
@@Octovol are these instant aoe death ults in the room with us? The only 8 ults that follow that criteria is Junkrat, Reaper, Pharah, Venture, Cass I guess, illari, Dva and Sigma. That’s barely anything especially when only 3 of them are good, 3 is decent and the other 2 are a meme and are ass. Countering an ult with an ability that basically requires no thought process isn’t the answer. It’s evident enough when they made Rein shatter be unable to be suzu’d because of how stupid a single ability completely negated an ult AND healed them for 110 health. There’s 0 consequences for them because both suzu and immortality have a stupid high aoe field that even rat could hit your allies with it
exactly, it used to be trade ult for ult and sleep was fine cause it was super hard to hit. the immortalities require absolutely no skill expression. there is no montage of immortality abilities being used because it's just not impressive but there are montages of sleep darts on enemies.
@@arinrobinson3898 suzu should just be status cleanse with a little dmg reduction & lamp should have a setup time build or should only stay active for maximum of 2-3 seconds before auto breaking. Idk about life grip tbh
I love LW, but grip is so badly designed that I feel like it needs a rework. Its a worse Suzu and it's a net negative for playing with it and against it. I was thinking of it being a cleanse and giving minor temp HP that quickly decays. Like 15/20% that decays 10% over 2 seconds.
maybe grip should act more like a projectile/hitscan?? idk something so its not just an automatic save when you barely aim towards an ally, to have a little more skill expression and not an instant value every time you use it
As somebody who plays Lifeweaver, picking him at all is the biggest risk you can take in this game 😭 But on a more serious note, as a support main there's just some characters that really seem too effective. LW and Bap being able to nullify ults with a single button press just sucks. "OH WEAVER YOU'RE THE GOAT" thanks I pressed E once and lifted everyone out of Zarya/Rein/Orisa ult
lifeweaver has the problem of lilmitations in design. there are not a lot of options you have playing him to offer any skill expression and no margin for error so in order to balance that out his abilities need to be powerful when they are used. but if his base stats are too strong he becomes op really fast. Orisa is like the tank version of this. all this does is create player frustration when it comes to counter play. lifeweaver needs a redesign that allows for more skill expression. there would be more margin for error but also means more ways for him to outplay his opponents.
@@arinrobinson3898 I would agree, LW's kit is just tailored towards doing one thing really well and that's saving people, and while you can get kinda creative with it his kit is still very linear. The only skill he requires is presence of mind. If you're paying attention and somebody dies it has to be their fault (this includes the LW player). In low ranks he's almost as unkillable as a decent Mercy. I'd love for a little more variation in what he can do because I do enjoy playing him, but playing against him is just the WORST sometimes
As a support main that plays some of the easier supports, I just wish they would stop trying to buff easy characters by increasing their stats. They understand that Bastion, Symmetra, and 76 don't need to be insanely strong because of their ease of use. But somehow, they don't understand that for tank or support.
agreed, tank main here and when i play support its crazy how easy it is to deny alot of tanks just by playing a support counter to them, ex: if enemy tank plays winton, dva, or even rein i just go brig and make their live miserable while i just chill with the team lol
Absolutely. A silver 5 Ana main is significantly better at OW than a gold 2 Moira. They need to stop relying on win rate. Fix risk vs. reward and the win rates will eventually get back to where they should be.
tinfoil hat part of me thinks this is why they keep certain supports OP and never actually nerf them. dps and tanks fluctuate in and out of meta meanwhile kiriko has been meta with every comp since release.
Oh 100%. I dont even think that's a conspiracy theory, it's just the name of the game. Activision has research into affecting hit boxes and gun damage real-time, and see their effect on play-time and indirectly, microtransactions. Simply not nerfing a character pales in comparison 🤣
@@arinrobinson3898 Kirkos attacks are also ultra strong. A crit from her kunai is just as bad as getting a crit from a DPS like Cassidy. And even if not a crit these things still hurt like hell. How can a support hero be as strong as a DPS?
@@arinrobinson3898 There's no tinfoil hat, they are pandering to Support players. Kiriko and Sojourn came out at the same time, and while everyone complained about Suzu and other problematic things Kiriko had in her kit, they did not do anything about it. Sojourn on the other hand lost slow on Disruptor Shot, and receives major adjustments every few patches because she's in a meh state, and Blizzard cannot accept that she does not work without her strong burst.
@@XswingXtbf, Zen has always been able to out-dmg some of the dps role, he's just balanced by his laughably low healing. Nobody minds Zen because he has very obvious weaknesses. Kiri being able to deal damage, as a concept, i dont mind it. However, her being able to deal damage, output massive heals, and has 2 immortality cooldowns? Yeah there's a problem there.
I completely agree. The issue is the devs know exactly what they’re doing. They’re not trying to make a balanced product, they’re trying to make money. And the best way to do that is to keep the game fresh and make sure the the characters with the most skin sales are always good. They knew exactly what they were doing with Kiriko. Brain dead heals to allow them to focus on high dopamine easy/lucky to use Kunai with a juicy headshot multiplier. Oh and what’s another mechanic people like in games after satisfying headshots? Mobility, so they gave her all of that. And then there’s cleanse which is an entire other topic. We went from Baps immortality field being overpowered for a few years to adding a better more versatile version on a shorter cooldown and then completely removed the aiming part of it
Something I haven’t really seen people talk about with Kiri either is that they made her kunai more reliable when mobility characters went to 225 health. Kiri did almost no damage on a body shot before that patch, but the reward for a headshot was huge at 112.5 damage. On the current patch, she does 60 damage a body shot, only 10 less than Cass. That maybe wouldn’t be that bad, but her headshot does EVEN MORE DAMAGE than it used to at 120. So she traded 25 health for a MUCH more consistently good weapon
Well another small issue is you can't really make cool concepts anymore if everything has to be perfectly balanced you do sacrifice some creativity for balance in that sense
See I would agree the whole 5v5/6v6 thing is a distraction, however I think 5v5 FORCES more of these designs. Remember how with mostly OW1 balance still in the OW2 Beta the teamfights would resolve so fast? Made immos and easy/free heals more necessary to extend teamfights to have that brawly, OW feel with solo tank. Same with everyone having not only a mobility cooldown, but a really good one now. Gone are the days of designs like OG Zenyatta. I’m a huge 6v6 advocate because I believe we can actually start rolling some of these goofy design choices back in 6v6 to a reasonable level. Not only that, but there’s a ton of additional depth with teamplay, map control, tank battles, etc. in 6v6. But as much as I love all that stuff about the old game, what you highlight in this video has been an issue plaguing the game since Brig’s release or arguably even Moira’s. It’s the issue you point out that Blizzard refused to address which pushed us on the path to role lock, 5v5, season 9, etc. It’s why Genji has been one of the most popular, healthiest, and skillful heroes in the game since its launch yet has been a terrible pick most of the time except for 2 weeks every few years, because of these boring, free value heroes or abilities. 6v6 doesn’t fix the game, it simply allows us to fix the game.
@@arinrobinson3898 I think 6v6 is a good first step but after that we gotta push for better design and it might be possible since OW Devs have never been this responsive (which isnt saying alot but it is what it is)
THANK YOU! You hit the nail on the head. This is exactly why i stopped having as much fun playing overwatch and stopped playing almost at all. I check in from time to time if its any different but im not confident it ever will be given the incentives for shop sales I play mostly tracer
ah yeah Tracer has changed from being about dueling and getting picks to mostly just baiting out cooldowns like suzu and lamp and hoping your team can follow up. you have to work 3 times as hard to get a kill. it's a slower less exciting game to play. this is why people aren't having fun anymore and it's not burnout. just shit abilities that ruin the game.
@arinrobinson3898 learning positioning is hard and unintuitive for new players, that's probably why support players felt weak so now they're easier to play I guess. Mission accomplished lol I don't see people talking about how the hitbox changes made movement less rewarding either. You can have the best staggered A D crouch strafing where you even time your counterstrafed jump perfectly but Hanzo still hits a HS lol. What's even the point of learning the game anymore. I watched your most recent videos and enjoyed them!
yeah, and Alec saying he likes to use positioning as if that wasn't part of the design is kind of telling how they design and balance the game. overall OW2 and especially post season 9 the game is a lot less rewarding. the day i stopped playing daily was when i realized that winning wasn't even fun anymore. I think that's a pretty bad sign as someone who was playing for 8 years before that. I really appreciate you watching my videos! I'm not a big creator but I try to offer some unique and different insight. Comments, views, and likes all really help so it's really appreciated!
I feel it's the balance of support abilities and power creep that has left the game feeling this way Ana was the first new support added and I feel is well-designed Gets most of her value from playing passively, but her defensive abilities are all resource-based and manageable The sleep can only hit one target, the grenade often has to choose between being used passively or offensively - and both can be eaten/shielded by tank players - or dodged by movement heroes The nano has the right balance of resistance to damage without being outright unkillable - and importantly she cannot use it on herself so she's killable, somewhat of a healing glass cannon Comparing that with a similar design of Hero, Lifeweaver Gets most of his value from the backline as well - wait, I meant to say ALL of his value Not a single one of Lifeweaver's abilities has advantages for playing offensively or riskily - They are all completely passive and require you to take very little risk to get value with They also do not *facilitate* playmaking in the same way that Nano or Mercy right-click can - for being similarly passive heroes This doesn't strike well with the rest of the cast, who in many cases can only get value by taking some risks or by playmaking in general The biggest play you can ever make as lifeweaver - is to use the platform to avoid an ultimate - the lifegrip to avoid an ultimate - and the tree to survive an ultimate This slows down gameplay for both teams and doesn't fit well against other supports who can make plays or facilitate playmaking when their team is behind Then there are the trio: Brig, Kiri, Bap I truthfully have always felt that Bap shouldn't be able to save himself with his Lamp, and the same should be true for Kiri and Suzu Kiri having two get-out-of-jail cards on her (suzu + teleport) causes her to play in an even more degenerate way - but they are all the same Brig hasn't been full-power in quite a long time, but with a combination of ability rotation, passives, and ultimate - she was the original unkillable support The problem with each is unique but ultimately all because of their ability to save themselves more than their ability to save others Kiri is encouraged to play aggressively, but to call it playing "risky" would be disingenuous considering her ability to nope out The other two are fully designed to play passively and deny dives by staying alive to make sure the enemies have no fun Not to mention the damage output of these three heroes (I feel) are quite a bit above the other supports in the game with the rare exception of Zenyatta (Who was designed that way from the start and has limited value from his other abilities to compensate for this) As a longtime tank main - this is the issue to me Each support has to strike a balance between survivability and opportunity cost - gaining and spending resources - so they can feel like ana - a healing glass cannon When they start to feel like their own mini-boss they can really take over the game - and so many of the new support heroes are designed in this way imo Edit: The DPS passive is completely anti-game-design and should be visible or communicated to the player - if they can't do that comfortably in the UI they need to remove it and either replace it with a different system entirely or adjust damage and healing numbers more specifically to replace it - without hiding information from the player
Super underrated video, I completly agree with you. Seeing this blindness of the devs with the game design and just focusing on the winrate stats has the same energy as low rank players farming stats on the scoreboard instead of focusing on winning the game.
Thank you! I always wondered why the OW content creators wouldn't call them out on citing winrates. that part always frustrated me cause it is such a poor argument for design/balance.
Especially since when looking at win rates, they don't look at mirrormatches. But I dunno, I'm no game dev but wouldn't it be an issue if a tank was so OP 75% of the players were picking them? Nope, jus gonna ignore that an give Orisa more buffs for the week
@@muckdriver i don't doubt they have more than just the win rate statistics but my argument more so is how they are interpreting the statistics that matters and i don't think they are doing that well right now. for instance, kiriko. she is incredibly powerful to everyone in high elo but also easy to play. her win rate overall is pretty low for many ranks at 45%. one could assume that means her abilities are weak and she shouldn't be nerfed which is what i think the devs believe now and i think that's inaccurate. her win rate isn't low because he abilities are weak, it's low because it's incredibly easy to do the wrong play and die for it. this to me is understanding the difference between game feel and game balance design. sometimes numbers need to be tweaked to determine the strength of something but sometimes abilities need to be tweaked to feel stronger, more fluid, more fair, or more obvious as to how to use them. Win rates are one of many examples but it's a pretty piss poor stat to use in general. to me game feel is something that matters far more to a healthy game state. a healthy player perception is key to longevity of a game. which is why i am concerned on the state of overwatch now.
Very well spoken. It doesn't matter how many players are on the field; playing against characters that can gain value from simply existing or having no counterplay present isn't an enjoyable game-play experience.
My personal hot take: Dps passive is a mistake, either it should be global or just be removed and then all healling from supports nerfed. . Suzu and lifegrip should not cleanse or pull alies that got hit by ultimates. Ults in general should feel impactful and only be countered by another ult, I doubt anyone has a problem with sound barrier or trans. Like, why does suzu now dont cleanse the rein shatter, but counters Junkerqueen's rampage? Obs: im a support main but im with you tank mains
i agree dps passive is a mistake. i talk about it in other videos but it just makes the game more inconsistent and confusing. the opposite of good design. just nerf healing across the board. and yeah no one was complaining when it was ult for ult trade. regular abilities should not counter ults unless they are extremely hard to do like sleep dart. however since season 9 made everything easier to hit that also kind of fucked things up. i think the devs believe they are making it more accessible but it's actually more frustrating. i like abilities that offer skill expression over just immediate value.
Suzu is a great hard counter to Sombra's ult. But if it were restricted to the single target hack then yea it would make more sense I suppose. Still a lot of ults are hard countered. Dva ult being eaten by a shield. Dva matrix eating Reapers ult. I think it's good some ults are counterable. Part of getting off an ult is knowing when it will fail. Kill the Kiriko or bait suzu before ulting. Don't die die die when Dva has matrix. Ana ult is hard to stop, but it is easily squandered. I think over-emphasis on needing fair balance is actually wrong. I love overcoming Zarya as Dva even though it is hard mode. You learn to play more poke and conservative, and you'll eventually turn the tides if your team out plays. This is a team game after all. Some metas need fixed, but ruining the strength or unique utility of certain characters isn't great. I like staying on a hero to see if I can overcome any challenge, but constant line up changes are also part of the game you can take advantage off. Meta's are only bad when everyone goes the same thing every time in order to win, and there is not a single counter. So it's just all hard picking that meta as opposed to playing rock paper sissors which is what the game should be.
I only half agree cuz if this was the case you'd have to remove things like rein being able to block Dva bomb or Dva eating wholehog and Phara barrage etc which just feels dumb I do think some ults should be better rewarded but there are some things that should have more options available vs em
part of me thinks that would be pretty cool and another part of me is afraid of the large influx of opinions and hate i would get from support players haha honestly of all the OW creators i think spilo probably has the best takes when it comes to design and balance so it'd be cool to see him react.
THANK YOU. and my main deal with this problem is that this diverse cast of playstyles. from moira and genjis. COULD work, if they took time to balance the risk and reward. i truly believe even the most "UnBaLanCED" characters like sombra, venture, sym or torb. can be made better if tweaked and given slight reworks around a central focus of their kit.
agreed, moira was supposed to be the easiest hero in the game to me and pre season 9 i felt she was in a good spot. post season 9 along with the addition of heroes like life weaver and kiriko the risk to reward is just not enjoyable anymore. I have to try super hard putting myself in a risky position to get a kill and a lifeweaver can hang out 30m back and 8m up on a petal never missing a heal. so not only do i need to get him to waste lifegrip i need to put myself at risk a second time to get a pick in a 19 second window. that's a lot to ask from players. god forbid they have two immortality abilities. it just feels unfair and unrewarding. there is also limited to no skill expression on some of these heroes and abilities. ana's heals are dynamic and multipurpose. lifeweaver and kiriko heals are boring and 1 dimensional. they also keep removing weaknesses from characters. reaper can tp in air, cassidy can roll through damage, kiriko has 0 weaknesses. players having all the control and no weaknesses just makes this game a casual shooter now. it just becomes frustrating and even winning isn't fun anymore.
The risk/reward of a hero like kiriko is opportunity. Sitting and healing when you could go for a quick flank is a risk, you need to evaluate when you can. Suzu-ing when you dont need to (say your moira is low hp but she had fade), youre risking wasting it The risk of dying is low, but the risk of throwing the fight still exists. I play all roles
@@arinrobinson3898 I dont think shes as hard as heros like tracer or doom I get that but to me shes still harder than most heros on any role to max her value out. Shes also just worse now than she used to be, lower hp slower heals, healbot kiri got nerfed hard early on
IMO (though these are by no means new ideas), Ana nade should cause 50% healing reduction rather than 100%. Bap should get Mitigation Field rather than Immortality field, and be on a shorter cooldown. Cleanse should maybe make debuffs last half as long rather than totally erase it, but do more healing. Also DPS passive should be changed, enhanced, and visually indicated (like anti-heal is) but perhaps rather than triggered by all damage, be triggered only by debuffs and boops (like Dynamite burning, Widow Poison, Pharah's Concussion) so it creates short windows of opportunity where you can break through enemy heals by using cooldowns, giving DPS time to shine, but then when they're on cooldown, the Supports get their time to shine, so the balance shifts moment to moment. Some heroes like Bastion and Reaper wouldn't get these cooldowns because they already have high burst. edit: Oh, and Tanks would be able to get in on this action too, like Winston knocking you around in Ult would cause this debuff to trigger since it's a boop, maybe they can give Rein's firestrike a burn effect too which triggers this etc. Supports should be able to make lifesaving plays one moment, but then DPS and Tanks should be able to make plays that totally cut through the supports healing the next moment etc. Rather than having entire seasons where supports are underpowered and then overpowered etc. depending on how strong DPS passive is.
As a bap main I agree. I would like damage reduction way more than outright immortality. Ana's nade is fine as it is right now. Kiri's suzu should be a cleanse rather than immortality. The only immortality that should be in the game would have to be an ult. I like your dps passive idea too.
@@w1ndt I was thinking Ana's anti be reduced just so that the game can move away from hard counters a bit more. Since Ana is like really good against Hog and Mauga but a bit less effective against Rein who can block it with his barrier. And so if Ana is ever not the best support and other supports get picked more, that will cause the dreaded Hog and Mauga to rise in prominence etc. Also I think if they reduced anti, they reduce the cooldown which allows Ana to use it on herself more when she gets dived upon etc. which again reduces hard counters a bit more and makes her weakness less glaring and smooths her out a bit more, especially since pretty much all other supports except Zen have good mobility. Obviously if Ana's nade got changed, Mauga and Hog would need to get a nerf too since it'd be an indirect buff to them. Junker Queen's ultimate would need to do more direct damage too if anti effect got nerfed. All this is just thinking out loud, probably all terrible and ill-informed but meh lol. Oh, also cleanse would be less important if Ana's anti was less powerful too. And you're right about the immortality, cleanse probably doesn't need to be changed. I think they designed Bap to be a hero who can make a life saving play on someone about to die, similar to Lifeweaver's life grip... But perhaps they should just give the Immortality field an initial burst heal and then damage reduction instead if they wanted it to be used reactively still, rather than just proactively. I think it'd be more fun if it had a wider AoE too since some people will just walk out of it when you put it down which is frustrating.
Suzu is fine as a cleanse but it's just that it does too much pick two things and keep em intangible and cleanse? Sure cleanse and immunity fine heal and immunity maybe but the fact it does cleanse, heal, intangible, and immunity is excessive they gotta cut back on all that it does
"baiting" suzu is not a weakness, she still has many usable abilties outside that. weakness is when you mess up and nothing you do can make up for the value youve lost
"Many usable abilities"? You mean TP? Suzu is just a self heal tied to a split second invincibility. The only heroes who get countered by that are those with one shots, and those deserve all of the suffering. Also, advocating for MORE counterwatch is stupid af and you should be ashamed.
@@ImaTroper Don’t really think you should be calling other people stupid if you say that Suzu is just a self heal and minor immortality. It counters every single ability, including several ults, that apply a status effect. Because of the immortality it also counters several ults with large instances of damage like Pulse, Deadeye, Flux, Terra Surge, etc. All said, Kiri’s non-ultimate ability counters the majority of the cast. She low-key already has “counterwatch” in her kit.
All tanks are 5 star difficulty with an exception of 3 (Hog, Mauga and Orisa on a good patch) The Tank is so easy to hit with everything because im the Biggest character on the board but im also the Floor General so if I make a mistake I have to hear about it EVERYTIME but i was genuinely playing my best....
Love this video btw I really feel like this game doesn't get analyzed as much as it should as far as player to player or role to role scenarios. When the developers touch the game they give passives, needs, buffs and number changes. However there's is no real change to how the game is played.
@@swimm3rcity as a profesional complainer. this is true. but im gonna say that dva is annoying. she spams and spams even with her shield open. she should not be allowed to use her abilities with her shield
There was some youtuber that reimagined all the problematic support abilities, such as giving ana nade a damage cap so it doesn't stop healing by an infinite amount during it's duration, but instead like only 300 maximum. Another was reworking suzu to be a fast cooldown quick healing ability rather than a get out of jail free card. Immortality would also just reduce damage by a high percentage rather than just outright make heroes unkillable. I don't remember anything for lifeweaver though, but his grip is arguably even worse than suzu since an otherwise free kill on someone who's out of position can get away scott free without any sacrifice or punishment whatsoever.
hog is frustrating and they ruined him by taking away his weaknesses but i can't blame tank players who want to play him and cut through the bullshit. cheese vs cheese is what ends up happening in bad design.
This is the reason why I like hog and perfectly sums up why supports hated him s1-3. He’s annoying to play against at times but he doesn’t let dumbass shit slide or let players do whatever they want
Thank you for this video, it's a good watch. I do have some counterpoints tho I Would place support more in the middle of that diagonal on your graph. This is because in 5v5 the tank role becomes more important, precisely because there is just one tank. Picture for example a situation with a tank being, idk tired, and because of that screwing up the hole match. This is a much bigger deal when there isnt another tank to counteract it. So the support needs to play differently, and crucially be designed differently, to weigh that in. EDIT 1: Claryfying how it all relates to supports
I would disagree in the sense that i weighted more based on one's ability to individually contribute and how hard it is vs how hard it is as that role in a team environment. if that makes sense. this is because no matter what if you have a tank that's feeding in OW2 whether you're dps or support you just can't win anymore. in terms of how difficult the heroes are to play and how much value they get out of their abilities is how i sort of envisioned it.
I will say, as a support main: No, I'm not having fun with the current state of the game. I miss 6v6, and hate having to both keep the team up AND have to 1v1 every dps that jumps me. I won't say that support is the worst role to play (that very much is tank), but playing support means having the responsibility of playing two roles at once-- so (in 5v5) we had to be given the power to survive **being** two roles at once. Personally, I'd rather go back to being weaker if it meant I had a functional team that peeled for me, instead of the scattered formations of the current game that leave supports open to endless flanks.
The only support who cant win a 1v1 with a dps is probably mercy. The DPS player has to be better than you 99% of the time to win the 1v1 if they go for a flank. Unless cass hits 3 headshots in a row on kiri, she is just gonna suzu herself and probably win or force him to retreat. Stop blaming your team when they actually have to use their brain to play the game and you don't
That makes a lot of sense, and I personally want 6v6 so that tank isn’t ultra ass at all times to play. However, I really love to play support in the current format. Since you have such potent offensive power and supportive utility, you can be constantly emitting a huge amount of value if you play it right. It’s a broken role overall, but that’s why it’s so fun!
@@morganmcleod3157 I can understand where you're coming from. For myself though, I hate being overpowered, min-maxing, and playing metas. I actively have less fun knowing that what I'm doing has less to do with me, and more to do with broken tools that I'm abusing in order to engage with the game less, or give the enemy team less counterplay. I love fairness; and the kill isn't fun without the hunt.
@@miwky406 Yeah that's so facts especially with the recent Juno release. There is a perverse comedy though when I am not doing much on Juno, but it's fine because I just press Q and the team fight is completely unlosable.
The issue of risk/reward is not so clearly “tanks are all risk, no reward. Supports are the opposite.” For example, Roadhog has absolutely minimal risk landing a hook for massive reward. Ball also has low risk with shields and grapple but pretty free value with being impossible to track in metal ranks. Overall I think this is a great video, but it’s definitely more nuanced than presented, especially when supports and problematic dps are the primary targets beyond silver.
i left out hog and ball but you are correct. they have the problem of all reward and no counter play. it's a huge issue. orisa could fall into that too. we could say that's a problem of 5v5 or it's a problem of poorly designed kits or both. i think that new roadhog is 1000% worse than he was in OW1. i think the increase in tank health, reduced headshot damage, reduced CC, and season 9 projectile changes were all bad for the game that has made this worse. fighting orisa is just shooting a wall and ball is just shooting a moving wall. all these heroes you have to hard counter with cheesy picks like sombra, ana, zarya, etc... cause if you don't you legit can't do anything to them and it makes for frustrating gameplay. i use generalizations in this video for sure because tank overall is not in a healthy state and i believe it's immortality abilities and dps passive to blame but there are definitely cheese designs and balance issues that only further the problem of more counter picking. if OW starts to address these issues that make tank miserable to play but also miserable to shoot i will most definitely make a video on hog, ball, and orisa if i haven't already.
Im a rein otp, i was hardstuck in low plat for 6 months and i find tank(rein) until they play annoying/counters to my guy like the flyers, bastion, kiri weavers e beats my q with no risk, half the tanks i have a bad matchup into like orisa who just stands there or doom, dva or ball who just outpace me. Then if i go for the supports i get slept antied, they tp away or lamp and jump away cant dive mercy if theres a zen im perma discord brig and lucio jump boop me and i cant control my guy as well as new juno who has so much mobility i cant do anything so what do i do nothing just hope the dps do something so i can walk forward cuz if i push to early im dead but i still like this game so i hope they can make tank(specifically rein for me) feel better to play and last thing if im in a fight and my dps aren't there for whatever even and there no dps passive i swear ive swing on a ana 6 times and so would do cuz the healing in this game is so high. Maybe its just a skill issue or cuz im one trick but idk also ive only been playing since ow2 so im only a 5 v 5er and it wasn't this bad at launch tank was better on release idk what happened, sorry last thing fix rein pin it is the most fair one shot in the game imo so it makes no sense why its so bugged and doesn't work how it should half the time
problem is healing is so inconsistent that if you're swinging on ana she either survives it all or she blows up instantly and you won't know why cause you can't see who your dps are looking at. it's just poor design to give a dps passive instead of tuning healing. to top it off if ana is getting healed by a support like kiriko or lifeweaver they'll never miss so even though it takes skill for rein to close that gap and play risky they take no risks at all healing from far away while also never being able to miss. it creates a very frustrating feeling of inconsistency and confusion for players. so lower elo or not part of it is a failure by design.
As a fighting game player, this just sounds like you aren't adjusting to what you're opponents are good at. Rein is good in close range, but what he's really good at, is threatening people who get close to him. Remember, playing tank isn't about killing supports, your role is to hold and make space. Why are you, as a slow melee tank, even attempting to chase mercy? Chances are you were out of position friend...
I've only played the game for 2 years and this was literally 1 of the problems I kinda instantly spotted. I came into OW thinking ya know skilled/high risk characters are going to get a lot of reward but as I played for a couple of months in those 2 years I realized it was the opposite and it was frustrating cuz the characters I like and want to play as I couldn't cuz I would get shit 💩💩💩 on by a player objectively using a easier to play character basically I have to put more effort in the engagement than the other player and they have less risk for the same engagement too. I main dps but as soon as I went on support it felt mad easy truthfully I'm not over exaggerating or anything it for real felt so much easier 😂 and when I went on tank oh boi I was having the time of my life on tank 💀 I kinda didn't want to switch off and some of the easier dps characters too.
exactly, why spend 1000 hours learning genji when you could just hitscan from far away or learn good positioning with zen when kiriko does everything he does better and safer? it's a huge problem and imbalance among the cast of heroes.
@@arinrobinson3898hitscan is bad now. You can't even 2 tap most of them as cree now unless you're literally in their faces and you don't have a stun to defend yourself from tanks. In ow1 you were dead if you got too close to a cree, that was the point of the character.
Honestly it just sounds like a teamwork issue. The issue of what are you supposed to do solo against another person's play is that you're forgetting it's a team game. If you're chasing / pressuring a support they aren't healing. If your DPS aren't making the supports lives hell that's on them but it's not the tanks job to fix alone. Take lifeweaver for example, if he pulls somebody to a safe space id start asking why the life weaver has so much space to work with. I can't tell you the number of times I've missed grips and life saving heals because I've got flankers pelting me in the side of the head forcing me to react. It's not a matter of risk vs reward if no pressure is being applied. Also, know that control is never in your hands as an individual in this game unless you're smurfing. You simply cannot forget you're not playing against robots; the enemies are going to react to what you're doing and you have to account for that. If the enemy Bap feels comfortable sitting on their lamp until the perfect time then your dps aren't doing their jobs as usually a flanking DPS can force a lamp out pretty quickly.
Often times people that say that are doing the most for the team because they have the most dmg are also running in alone and dying making it impossible to fight as a team in which case they are a big reason why the team lost.
it has value but it's very contextual. a big part of game design is being able to ask yourself when you fail "what could i have done better". i think that team 4 doesn't do a good job with that part.
This is what needs to be heard that nobody is mentioning about the game. Especially for Widowmaker, there's nothing "risky" about bunkering up on the opposite side of the map doing nothing, not engaging with the enemy, not being near the objective, unseen, and picking people off with ridiculously huge sightlines. Widow is all reward, no risk.
Widowmaker isn’t easy to play, I don’t even play widow but I feel like people really underplay her alot it’s not easy to consistently hit headshot & survive dives yes it’s not fun to lose too but ya’ll gotta stop saying there’s no risk to playing widow because you not being consistent is the risk
@@Selflessthehelplessyes but most heroes have to hit shots. In fact they have to do it nore often in more stressful situations. Whole moving. Widow is hard to pick up but the skill to master needed is lower simply because you have only one acis of skill you improve on.
I@@pasteldad39 i hope you don't think you get to just sit in one place and shoot on widow. The pressure is highest on you to get picked. It is 100% high risk high reward. The problem isn't paying her it's paying against her. THAT feels shitty. Because a one shot out of nowhere in a game like this will always feel shitty
@@MrProdigy810 Im sorry but the angle change and gamesense requirements if widow are just very low. Even someone with 40 IQ can probably figure out the gamesense needed to pilot widow. She is almost entirely aim
@@pasteldad39 i agree. But if you sit in the same spot the entire time you will die. If you can't hit your shots, you will probably die. Even if you don't, you become nearly useless and anyone else would be a better pick. She is extremely susceptible to dive. If you get dove and you can't hit your shots or you're too far away because you decided to sit back far as fuck and someone got the jump on you: dead. Not to mention there are characters she just cant interact with well. Even without engaging her, if you have a team like sigma, torb, bastion, she now has almost no one to oneshot, since she cant oneshot any of them and their damage output to the rest of her team is ridiculously high, invalidating the pick. I'm sorry, but she is the definition of high risk, high reward. She is that character that is fun to play as but shitty to play against. That shittiness has been magnified by the amount of supports that can save her or invalidate her dive bringing us back to the issue of supports. About the only thing I would change on widow is to make it so her rifle didn't one-shot in close proximity. Other than that, I don't think there is much you can change on such a gimmicky character
The amount of games I get kiriko on my team who doesn’t know how to use her utility, which is game changing, hurts me. They play her cause she has the cute skins, but dammit! Learn your character and you will climb. I don’t want to be toxic but when Kiriko has low risk high reward and you still manage to throw games, it’s rage inducing.
suzu is such a huge and crucial ability that when you die and you see it thrown out late is frustrating especially when you get them to use theirs first. suzu is a mid fight game changer which has way too much power in deciding duels.
Its simple math: Make game easier and free to play to attract new players to sell more skins while the health of the game suffers. We've all seen this game get dumbed downed over the years and there's no rolling it back now😅
The game is dumbed down and definitely a casuals game now. I will say they could roll it back and fix it but I think I'd rather play they lottery for better chances.
I’m only about 5 minutes in but so far it seems like the problem is 90% “healing too high”. Instead of a DPS passive, it should have been an everybody passive and it should reduce healing 15-20% in combat. You should not be able to heal pocket someone taking constant damage. Sorry tanks, you have to take cover sometimes. Same to you, mercy pocketed DPS.
If tanks also had the DPS passive, they would feel so much better and be so much happier. They miserable because they can’t get kills. They feel weak. Everyone should get the DPS passive.
@@spacecowboy7193 pretty spot on yeah, dps passive being invisible makes take feel inconsistent and unrewarding to play because healing is too out of control. just giving them the same passive and removing the damage reduction would probably make the game feel better for everyone.
AOE healing abilities should never go above like 40 or 50 hps. And even then it's a bit much. APE healing as a whole needs to be scaled down to around where lucio heal is
Lucio heal is terrible tho if it was slightly better then it would be a better base but Lucio heal is genuinely so bad it doesn't help anybody even DOT effects can kill through his healing and that's just ridiculous
6v6 just muddled the game to where nobody noticed that brig, bap, and moira are cancer. And then they added kiri which is basically the most annoying parts of both baps and moiras kit.
@@blazestrange4499 she's solid all around and one of the best designed supports since Ana however there's two issues. 1. The homing rockets. There's no counter play to them, it's not impressive to do, you're not going to see a homing rocket montage, it's inconsistent in it's predictability, there is no skill expression in it, you can't even tell you're being locked on in a fight. overall just a poorly designed ability that falls under the typical ow2 design philosophy of "fun for me but not for thee". 2. Her ult works and it kind of makes sense for her kit thematically but I'm so tired of support ults either being A mass aoe heal, B mass aoe do more damage as a team C a little of both. There's a lot of support ults that just demand space and there's not a lot of counterplay when they're activated. So you get a lot of space for free the moment you hit Q. Similar problem I have to ram ult. Counterplay is just not be there. I want Ults to be strong but still have obvious weaknesses and there needs to be more than 1. Since Juno can do damage and heal it would've been cool if she activated her ult and her gun got super charged for instance. Become more like an Uzi with increased her heal and damage. That can show off a lot of player choice in the moment but also requires skill to show off the better Juno players. Every new hero and every new ability ask yourself "how do I counter this? How many options do I have?" A good example is to look at magnetic grenade and why it failed so hard they went back to flashbang. The more confusing, one dimensional, and inconsistent abilities are the worse they're designed.
removing most characters fixes this. also moira needs a range nerf. so if she commits to a kill. she needs to commit instead of long ranging from her team.
i think pre season 9 moira wasn't so bad. she felt like she was in a healthier spot then. she's definitely an annoying hero but making her already easy to aim damage ability even easier was not the call IMO. but i think season 9 overall was a terrible idea and ruined the game for the worse.
"Its so boring im going crazy playing this shit game" sums up why it's currently not installed on my console and after Marvel Rivals drops probably never will be again
I quit after last season after 8 years and haven't missed it at all. It's literally a balance design issue. I feel for creators whose job it is to play right now. Once another game comes along to fill that vacuum overwatch left itself it'll be a lot of people leaving.
@arinrobinson3898 I used to watch a lot of creators and comparing their old content to now it seems like they're being held hostage. There's no passion anymore and I don't think it can ever come back.
Yeah and I hate all the people gaslighting and being dismissive when they're saying what they don't like about the game and people just tell them it's burnout. Like no, I was having fun, then these changes happened, and now I'm not. It's really not that complicated.
I agree with what you were saying until rein vs zarya, you clearly don't play rein my friend you can't just pin in and shield out 😂😂 maybe in gold you can but 700 hp is a myth when you hit box is that big saying zarya takes more risk then reinhardt is just simply objectively false in zarya you just sit back and lazer the other tank whereas on rein you die for misplays most every time to things like bastion junkrat and Cass who are in almost every game and unlike zarya rein has to take risks to win the game you can't just sit there afk. Unfortunate you see an afk hero as the one who takes risk its like saying orisa takes more risk then doom because doom can make a misplay then jump out, it doesn't make sense.
i'm talking mostly about the zarya vs rein matchup as that is what makes that matchup difficult and not hypothetically thinking of including cass, bastion, and junk counterswapping matchups that would make it harder on rein. rein has the advantage on her so he can punish her easier without a doubt. increasing health pools only gives the hero with the advantage a greater advantage. if we want to get rid of the focus on counterswapping then we need to focus on how these heroes play in their worst matchups and what their kits need to counter play those matchups and not just buff what they do better.
This video completely ignores the amount of value you get by just being able to soak up 600 damage. How much work and effort does it take to take 500 damage then back up behind cover.
1. everyone has bias it's literally impossible not to have bias. that's why there's thing such as unconscious bias. which is fine all we can do is try to be as aware of them as possible and open to other arguments. 2. i cannot address every issue with every character in overwatch in a single video that isn't like 48 hours long. just because it's not mentioned doesn't mean i think it isn't problematic. sombra was the cheesiest hero on dps for like 2-3 seasons and she immediately got a rework while the supports remain untouched so to compare them to dps is a bit disingenuous. 3. even knowing all that as someone who plays all roles but has the most fun on dps i still understand each to the same degree in the past getting GM on every role or M4 post season 9 and i don't even play as much anymore if at all now. 4. i went to school for game art and design, I've shipped 2 AAA titles, indie titles, worked on PC, PS4, and VR in 15 years. I've been a prop artist, tech artist, environment artist, character artist, and systems designer so basically everything except program because i just know games. it's actually the thing i do so in saying that yes, i could have an unconscious bias but i also have a long history of knowing how games are made, designed, and how to improve them with a proven track record. I also know the politics that plague game studios. i don't have a lot of things i will say i'm amazingly good at. i like to skateboard and i'm not great, i can't cook for shit, i'm decent at fixing things that break, but sit me down in front of a game and i could easily make it feel and play better without a doubt. it's what i do.
@@arinrobinson3898 Do not get me wrong, I watched the entire video and I agree with almost everything of what you say; especially about tanks. I am just tired of the typical DPS discourse, it gets predictable and boring very fast. Relatively to the CDs you cited, we could say knowing how to keep them (or not waste them) and when to use them properly need an amount of skill and game-sense. For what concerns the other points, fair arguments. Indeed, we all have internalized bias, I just believe you could have tried to show the pro-DPS ones in a less apparent way, given that the DPS roster offers lots of cheese as well. I also believe saying supports didn't get touched is a bit disingenuous from your part: 225 hps is not a small change; making them less survivable is a pretty big deal. However, we could argue some oppressive supports need nerfs/tweaks, and - despite being a support main (here's my bias) - I can agree with you: Bap Lamp, Pylon, Ress are just some of the abilities causing frustrations by lack of interaction. Those abilities could need and should get some changes. Regarding S9, I would have actually preferred healing numbers nerfs rather than the dps passive, it would be so much healthier as you also stated. One question if you may answer: which politics are you referring to? P.S.: I'd love to listen to your analysis and points of view about the recent Widow/Sombra state.
@@Norfyo everything will take a certain amount of skill or game sense but with immortalities it's just game sense. so if you take a player with already great skill and game sense and give them abilities that can't miss and create a lot of value it creates a problem. for instance, my first time on kiriko i got to gm in 3 hours. after 8 years of tracer it was incredibly easy for me to figure out. on the dps side a high value easy ability would be something like hack which i also think is not designed in a great way. the parts they do touch on supports are not the ones that need to be addressed though. making their health 25 lower or a 1 second cool down isn't the issue people have with them when the issue is the immortality abilities. fps games are more fun when people die. having free instant deny buttons on 15 second cooldowns that can deny ultimate isn't fun. especially when those abilities affect tank the most. i agree with you on the lamp, pylon, res, but also would include life grip and suzu but also some of the ways that healing is done. the auto aim healing of supports doesn't offer any skill expression and there could be better ways to design abilities. there are abilities that allow you to do something vs abilities that just do something for you. too many supports have a lot of the latter. i agree with getting rid of the dps passive. I've made other videos on it but it's just confusing, you can't see it, and makes damage inconsistent on tank. nerfing healing across the board would have been better. i also dislike all of season 9 though. making things easier to do was never the solution. player frustration happens when they do not understand how they could have done something better. making aiming easier only made the delicate balance of higher elo worse and less fun to play because now there was less margin for error at the top. i don't believe this helped the casual audience because it didn't really matter to them anyway and the goal was always high elo but now even high elo players are having less fun because before they could take risks and now can't because no one will miss. then it turned into more about cycling your abilities as a team than trying to outplay as individuals. also super buffing single tanks only made the game worse and i made other videos on that too. politics is not a USA red or blue but office politics. the video game industry doesn't reward based on skill alone but getting people to like you. the best ideas don't always win and egos get in the way a lot. there's a lot of people that fail upwards cause of their soft skills. the industry is small so people tend to play nice and most games that fail probably had a large number of people that knew it would but couldn't do anything to fix it because the risk of rocking the boat and being blacklisted is too great. the same frustrations and arguments players have happen internally as well. sombra's problem is people don't understand how to play her kit on the dev side so they keep reworking her without a vision. removing perma stealth and attaching it to only her translocator which is her most important ability is proof to me they don't really get that character. the hack is also very lame skill expression, perma invis was always a terrible idea in the same way a permanent pylon is. it's extremely high value with almost no risk. the virus is not an ability i'm all that attached to and just doesn't flow well with her kit. sombra is supposed to be OW's version of the spy from tf2 but the spy was high risk high reward and had to be up close. hack can be strong but should be a skill shot so there's a margin for error so it's not frustrating to get hacked and it can be dodged or blocked. i have more ideas but although i understand that she was a cheesy hero she was still incredibly easy to deal with IMO compared to other heroes. widow's issues are mostly with 5v5 and map design. there's one less tank to hold her at bay and the maps like circuit royal are so badly designed that you can't avoid the long sight lines and there's no way to close the gap to kill her. unlike most dps that need to take an angle she can sit in the safest spot which is a problem. so the question is how can we allow players to close that gap or shoot from different angles? i don't mind having her as a high risk high skill character but she can't be given maps with free sight lines and no way to get around them. i can't snipe for instance, i can't widow vs widow in my elo so i don't try. i play tracer but even with her mobility there are sometimes no way to get around to her to deal with her and my tank can't leave to deal with her since he's holding the space at the front line. players need counterplay to feel like they could have done something different. if you die down a long sight line on first peek you might try route B or C but if there's only route A and you don't have a sniper on your team players get frustrated and blame the game/character which is bad design. the counter to widow was genji, tracer, winston, and dive heroes but even they can't close the gap on a map like circuit royal and it's much easier to deny them now. even if i close the gap on a widow and force grapple if there's a life grip/lamp/suzu or heals from characters that can't miss healing and she lives and the problem still exists. this is what i mean by immortalities affect everything. even the counters no longer counter and the amount of effort and risk a dps like tracer/genji needs to take to close the gap on a widow on circuit royal doesn't line up with how easy she can stay alive with all these easy to use abilities. even after closing the gap it feels like i need to kill someone 2-3 times before they actually die. what am i as a dps supposed to do when even closing the gap is no longer a way to deny her? the only logical route is play widow or nerf her. that's not good design. it's not the hero but the abilities and map that allow her to dominate so easily. OW2 has become more linear in it's game design because of things like this. players no longer feel like they have options. that's when players get bored and that's when they leave. that is my theory why so many creators are suddenly feeling the same thing all at once. OW used to be a competitive game about individuals skill adding to the value of their team. now it's linear, one dimensional, and requires your team to be coordinated in a game where no one joins voice out of fear of being banned. to me it's not a surprise why people aren't having fun anymore.
Dont even wanna watch the video 30 seconds is all I need to see. There is no problem, risk reward is necessary. Just because an ability takes time to charge doesnt mean it should mean a free kill. It just means its gonna be more impactful if done right. No one wants to learn how to play around, anticipate, or counter things. None of you need to be playing games if your concern is, "Its unfair that someone can stop me from doing something". Thats life and its a HUGE part of it. Just because you press button doesnt mean you should get kill.
You’re not waiting for the suzu (7:47). If you need to bait a suzu, you can be more aggressive to force the suzu that the kiri player knows they need to hold for rampage
Pure cope. How are dps all low risk, when most have no form of self sustain? How are tanks al high risk with 1000 hp. Tanks can just stand still and get value. How does ot make sense that you get a 1000 hp and just as much proactive ability as a character with 225?
dps are all high risk high reward... tanks are front line and full focus but don't have the dps passive to secure kills and are unable to see who has it applied. did you pay attention at all?
Tanks recently have been extremely high reward with little to no risk, it's battle of the giants with 8 spectators and whichever tank dies first loses the boringly, long, high sustain fight. The problem is not that you don't get value as tank, you do get value, and quite a lot, it's just mostly not visible, and the game practically forces you to countweswap the enemy tank to win since they all have such inflated stats to try to balance only having one of them in 5v5, most tanks can win a 2v1 easily because of that, but that doesn't mean it's fun to play tank.
Also, the "oh but kiri has suzu and negates all my abilities" argument falls apart the moment you have a kiri on your own team because she will save you from as many mistakes as their kiri saves their team, this goes for most "oh but (insert character name) can (insert ability) my (insert ability)" so can tanks, they can do at least one of these: stun, block, eat, heal or just run away from danger, all canceling most enemy abilities.
@@Ca_tGirlyea no. A jq is the only one who can casually and consistently win a 2v1 and THATS if they make mistakes. Almost everything you said was wrong and i aint got yhe thousand words to sum your 200 of BS
@@Ca_tGirl whichever tank dies first does ultimately decide the fight i agree but their value doesn't come from their ability to make plays and secure kills which is the fun of a shooter. their value comes from holding space. like you said if the tank dies you lose so it's in your best interest as tank to not die and just hold the space and that is the new tank gameplay loop. the inconsistency tanks feel when attacking targets feeling like they can secure kills vs when they can't is all dependent on their dps hitting that dps passive. and like i said in my video too the inflation of tank stats didn't make anything better and only made counterswapping worse. as for the kiri suzu having one on your team doesn't make it better. there is no counterplay to suzu other than get them to use it so you can finally get a kill. it doesn't make it less frustrating to have a kiri on your team it just means it's frustrating on both sides cause the risk to reward for that ability and other immortalities is what makes it not fun. just like bap throwing a lamp behind a wall on a grav he's already in a super low risk position and has a super high reward ability that's really easy to use. tanks do not get this luxury. even if a tank is attacking someone their damage is usually so low that even if their landing their shots without the dps passive one of the many auto aim healers will be able to keep them alive and that's the frustration is that how do you outplay someone that can never miss? there is also no creative way to use those heals they just heal for you. there's no way to use suzu in a creative way you just try not to use it first. tanks being buffed to all hell made the game objectively worse but that's my point is that the game has been removing counterplay and replacing it with super buffed stats and abilities that just do things for you. it becomes less of a game about skill and more about who cycles their abilities better. there is no counterplay to suzu, lamp, life grip. you cannot out aim auto heals and secure kills without the dps passive. so tanks job is literally to be a wall and cause pressure but never play make. that is the fundamental problem OW2 is experiencing and why it isn't fun. the game is overcomplicated now because instead of just nerfing supports they've given hidden passive, increased projectile sizes, and buffed tanks when the problem is and always has been denial abilities that are too easy to use that provide too much value when no other role has that.
I don't like those intro-clips. You had a bunch of clips where the hardest ult to use in the game was poorly used, versus clips of good teamwork and resource utilization. Of course tank looks like shit there. Also worth mentioning, while tank is harder than support on its face, I refuse to say that tank is some hellscape of risk reward. A rein in the right place can kill the entire team. A winston who knows how to pester and hold space can hold off an entire team. When you account for the ability to hold, maintain, and gain space, this equation evens out a lot in my mind. To me, tank is high risk, medium to high reward (low utility usually, but high ability to take space), dps is high risk high reward (balanced space taking and utility), and supports are medium risk, medium to high reward (but not much ability to make space usually, and if they do, like zen for example, they trade that for higher risk) You also always circle back to this argument that tank isn't allow to be proactive because they have to take account of ccs and utility (???). Maybe it's because I come from fighting games, but this seems like such an off mindset when it comes to understanding games. As someone who started support and has been learning tank (winston, sig, rein), I just acknowledge that as part of the skillset required to be good at tank. It's not better or worse, it's just different. Supports have to be aware of the constantly changing frontline, and understand how to find their perfect range with respect to contributing to the frontline while not dying to it, as well as staying alive in the face of divers or widows, which altogether I think isn't as easy as you make it out to be for most skill levels. I can go further w/ more specific examples and rebuttals, but I'll sit w/ this for now.
a grav combo'd with a barrage that grabbed 4 people was countered by an ikea disc from bap that was a regular ability with a 25 second cooldown. there was no outplay there and bap was sitting in the safest position. it wasn't even ult for ult trade in a creative way it was basic ability thrown at the ground for 2 ults. that's the whole point is that bap had to take 0 risk or skill in that play other than hitting E. tanks can hold space and that's what they're good at but holding space alone isn't fun. tanks used to be able to secure kills in overwatch 1 while being squishier and it was more fun. tanks in overwatch 2 weren't buffed to do anything but take space which means getting shot, cc'd, booped, and that just isn't fun. buffing tanks to just be stat monsters was never the solution. you seem like a new player to overwatch vs one that has been around awhile. so you're coming at this maybe only from a limited perspective. i also come from fighting games as well. i'm older so there's not many games i haven't been a part of. the problem is just saying that playing tank is just "different" isn't an excuse to justify how not fun it is right now for many and how people can still play but have valid criticisms that deserve to be addressed. saying that is just dismissive of what the community is and has been saying. tank isn't just different it lacks the same reward and dynamic choice and control that other roles have. since you're new i'm taking this all with a grain of salt cause i'm usually sitting in the 1.5% of the player base on all roles consistently so i'm not talking out of my ass here. support is undoubtedly the easiest role to play and rank up on. i understand how the game is played extremely well from every perspective and many heroes.
@@arinrobinson3898 Yeah grav was countered. Yeah Barrage was countered. Why wasn't lamp forced beforehand? You can complain about whether or not it deserves to exist, but the counterplay is clear, and the fact it wasn't wasted before the actual push means they were outplayed. If the ease of use in pressing e is as braindead as you make it out to be, the fact that it wasn't tracked is even more pathetic. This is the basics of resource management. Even moreso, in like 8-9/10 circumstances, the barrage could have been placed to destroy lamp, the grav would prevent lamp being safe around a corner by having the team in open space and dedicate to a push before it was thrown. That's also incredibly simple counterplay. I find making and hold space to be entertaining, I find the mindgame to be entertaining. Tank isn't meant for the same crowd as it was in ow1, in my opinion. You can compare it to a different game, but you all this comes down to is, "this isn't what I expected, I wanted something else". It's fine if you preferred that, but you have to take this at it's face. I will admit that I'm new. However, notice how you're presupposing that tank isn't fun here? "the problem is just saying that playing tank is just "different" isn't an excuse to justify how not fun it is right now for many and how people can still play but have valid criticisms that deserve to be addressed." Since we're talking, tell me, directly, what you find to be lacking in terms of reward, dynamic choice, and control. Here's the thing, I don't even deny you that support is easier. I just deny the degree. I don't think that it's so much easier, or that tanks are unfun by comparison. I think the problem is w/ your framework. You keep referring to skill versus reward, which is important, but when you start to view everything through this mentality, you just end up in a self-destructive hellhole (It's a common problem with "theory of everything" solutions). You understand the game well, but you understand it from one perspective. Try understanding the game as counterplay for a while, and see how many options, not just as a manifestation of utility, but a manifestation of tactics. That's what's kept me in the saddle of enjoying competition. I think you've burned yourself out.
@@arinrobinson3898 Ethos isn't the only part of an argument. If you've been around, you should be able to explain to me what's right and wrong. Otherwise, why should I just blindly belive you?
@@tumultoustortellini Stop arguing if you’re new, that’s straight up stupid trying to deny arguments from a more experienced player. I remember Overwatch 1. What countered Grav? Zen Ult. What countered a Nanoed Blade? Lucio Ult. What countered Death Blossom? Situational Awareness. Now it’s: Grav? Suzu Immortality Field. Nano Blade? Suzu Immortality Field. Death Blossom, but I have no idea where Reaper is? Suzu Immortality Field. Like these abilities are so braindead and way too good to be in Overwatch.
Unstructured rant. Only could sit trough half of that. You just cycle your idea over and over, and the video honestly does not need to be this long. Speaking of substance, you sound like a 100% biased tank, which you probably are, I will not bother to check. Somehow you guys think that if you have to time your abilities and ultimates properly, then it’s high risk high reward situation, yet supports don’t require the same skills what so ever. As a flex player, I see where you coming from, and I can agree that you’ve highlighted some of the problems the game has right now (like, tank gets too much focus and not as fun to play), I just don’t find your reasoning particularly correct
As someone who plays league of legend and only dabbles in overwatch as support. Aren't you literally just stating how the holy trinity from MMOs work? Like you highlight kiriko and bap playing support is purely reactionary gameplay. There is no "proactive suzu" and being proactive with lamp is just stupid. Maybe if supports outside of ana sleep dart and brig shield bash, could provide Shields/Crowd control like they do in LoL. Id love to make something like Suzu have offensive use, like slowing enemies so i could do something with it besides "hold for the Tanks big CC option"... my playmaking options as suport is often "negate what the other person did" Honestly, the game needs (and i know this is controversial) More CCs that arent just tied to ultimates. Mei lost her freeze and McCree his stun, but imagine if i had to decide suzu that CC'd ally but i risk not having it up for a rein pin or shatter. Currently, there isn't enough of a reason to use it aside from holding it to deny big ultimates. Maybe heros dont have enough moves like LoL champions Everyone has 4 and thus more tools to play make with thats not "all my value comes from hitting my Ult" unless you're like Malphite.
Support purely reactionary? So what about "ramping"? Certain healers (in world of warcraft) need to set up their heals with barriers and or heal over time effects. Then, after that, press other buttons that make it so they heal more potently. This is to set up and be PROACTIVE for massive waves of damage that would probably kill at least half of the raid. Proactivity is possible in the support/healer role. The game just needs to have the core mechanics (no instant press immortality abilities) to allow for that type of play to occur.
@amilcarcampbell2405 meant only in OW supports are reactionary, theres pleanty of "offensive proactive" supports in league of legends so I get what ur asking for, prepping for scripted damage in an MMO is different but they removed all those, OW use to to have armor packs and sym could throw down overshield packs. The only proactive healing feels like Juno ult or Tree but those are Ults. Also you said press other buttons, that's kinda my point that heros need more moves. If I'm kiriko, healing papers/flash step/suzu are all defensive reactionary moves, my only proactive option is throw kunai :/ I'd love a support that has a zarya bubble so I can be like "I'm shielding you go in" or a slow zone like old sojourn energy sphere "i slowed them, rein hit the shatter"
genji is high risk way to high reward. im a genji main and playing normally is fun until you play reverse goats and every healer heals you. then you become OP and the game gets stale.
i was hearing you out at first but tanks are supposed to work with their team for their high risk low reward playstyle to work. In all the clips you showed only one of them was working with their team.
if the only way tank can feel satisfying is that they need their team there to secure any kills and not through any meaningful way to outplay their opponents and secure kills on their own the role will be miserable to play because you cannot control what your teammates do and worse because tank is the front line they frequently do not have the luxury of being able to constantly turn around and see what they're team is doing. if you expect tanks to only work as long as their team synnergizes with them but the same isn't true for dps or support then of course tank will not be enjoyable to play.
This is such an insincere way to say that you don’t like certain supports under the guise of discussing game design. Kiri and Weaver are some of the worst performing supports in the game. Especially weaver, he’s just one of the worst characters in the game in general. W/L stats are not comparable to in game stats, of course if a character is underperforming in every rank it reflects the character. You can feel that some characters don’t require as much skill as others, or feel like some abilities are unfair, but that doesn’t mean you can disregard the actual statistics. Despite specifying that not every role fits into the risk/reward graph you set out, basing your argument on such a simplified version of the game makes your arguments null. Yes, tanks are playing in the front, but also have the biggest HP pools and will therefore benefit the most from their supports. Supports are in the back, but that also leaves them susceptible to dives and their lower HP pools means they can be fragile. That’s not even acknowledging the fact that with so many varied heroes with different skill floors and ceilings, simplifying the roles like this is pointless.
i'm not gonna watch this video but I will respond to the thumbnail. Lifeweaver is low risk low reward, JQ is high risk high reward... so you kinda refuted your own point with your thumbnail example.
omg. this is sooooo tired. just stop playing tank. i play all three roles. tank is fine. tank mains are the whiniest by far. your 'graph' is just a pictorial representation of your bias. it's arbitrary. tank is fine. git gud.
It's a tired argument because there's NOTHING BEING DONE TO THE PAIN POINTS. Nobody is asking for tank to be buffed, there's just too much shit that hasn't been nerfed/adjusted at all.
THIS is what the game needs to address. “5v5 vs 6v6” is a distraction for real. It doesn’t matter how many tanks are on the field, crap like immortality field in an AOE will always ruin your experience
exactly, that's what i've been trying to get at it in all my videos. 6v6 will help some parts of playing tank and bring their health back down but the fundamental problems of these abilities will still exist. i'm also not asking for supports to be nerfed into oblivion but designed in a way that offers them more skill expression and through that skill expression ways to defend themselves as well.
getting 50% less focus fire and 50% less CC is a HUGE deal. it would mitigate it by HALF off rip. yes OW has unbalanced abilities, but these two ideas are not mutually exclusive. fixing both would help, but one of these issues is waaay less complicated to solve
they've been been reworking heroes left and right and getting nowhere, so going back to 6v6 is the one hope tank players have coming anytime soon. i for one am not waiting for them to rework 10+ heroes before tank feels playable. marvel's out this year lmao
@@kwehst but you don’t get 50% less focus fire/ CC with 2 tanks on the field. I think ppl forgot how this worked. Teams would hard focus one tank with everything they had to bring it down, then turn and focus all their CC/ fire on the other tank.
There was no dividing fire between the two tanks. You focused everything on the one that was more aggressive. One tank ate all the CC/ dmg and died.
Abilities like immortality field exist because of all the mass AoE instant death ults there are. They are a symptom not a cause. Everything should have some form of counter.
Winston's ult isn't for killing people it's a survival and displacement/control tool. Not every ult is or has to be an I win button, that you can pop an ult against a well supported organised team and don't just instantly win is a good thing.
@@Octovol are these instant aoe death ults in the room with us? The only 8 ults that follow that criteria is Junkrat, Reaper, Pharah, Venture, Cass I guess, illari, Dva and Sigma. That’s barely anything especially when only 3 of them are good, 3 is decent and the other 2 are a meme and are ass. Countering an ult with an ability that basically requires no thought process isn’t the answer. It’s evident enough when they made Rein shatter be unable to be suzu’d because of how stupid a single ability completely negated an ult AND healed them for 110 health. There’s 0 consequences for them because both suzu and immortality have a stupid high aoe field that even rat could hit your allies with it
Some cooldowns being stronger than ultimates is still insane to me, the only reasonable one is sleep, grip, suzu and lamp all need changes
exactly, it used to be trade ult for ult and sleep was fine cause it was super hard to hit. the immortalities require absolutely no skill expression. there is no montage of immortality abilities being used because it's just not impressive but there are montages of sleep darts on enemies.
@@arinrobinson3898 suzu should just be status cleanse with a little dmg reduction & lamp should have a setup time build or should only stay active for maximum of 2-3 seconds before auto breaking. Idk about life grip tbh
I love LW, but grip is so badly designed that I feel like it needs a rework. Its a worse Suzu and it's a net negative for playing with it and against it.
I was thinking of it being a cleanse and giving minor temp HP that quickly decays. Like 15/20% that decays 10% over 2 seconds.
maybe grip should act more like a projectile/hitscan?? idk something so its not just an automatic save when you barely aim towards an ally, to have a little more skill expression and not an instant value every time you use it
This has always been the case, you know - just much less pronounced than now. Ana's nade has hard countered Transcendence since 2016.
As somebody who plays Lifeweaver, picking him at all is the biggest risk you can take in this game 😭
But on a more serious note, as a support main there's just some characters that really seem too effective. LW and Bap being able to nullify ults with a single button press just sucks. "OH WEAVER YOU'RE THE GOAT" thanks I pressed E once and lifted everyone out of Zarya/Rein/Orisa ult
lifeweaver has the problem of lilmitations in design. there are not a lot of options you have playing him to offer any skill expression and no margin for error so in order to balance that out his abilities need to be powerful when they are used. but if his base stats are too strong he becomes op really fast. Orisa is like the tank version of this. all this does is create player frustration when it comes to counter play. lifeweaver needs a redesign that allows for more skill expression. there would be more margin for error but also means more ways for him to outplay his opponents.
@@arinrobinson3898 I would agree, LW's kit is just tailored towards doing one thing really well and that's saving people, and while you can get kinda creative with it his kit is still very linear. The only skill he requires is presence of mind. If you're paying attention and somebody dies it has to be their fault (this includes the LW player). In low ranks he's almost as unkillable as a decent Mercy. I'd love for a little more variation in what he can do because I do enjoy playing him, but playing against him is just the WORST sometimes
As a support main that plays some of the easier supports, I just wish they would stop trying to buff easy characters by increasing their stats.
They understand that Bastion, Symmetra, and 76 don't need to be insanely strong because of their ease of use. But somehow, they don't understand that for tank or support.
agreed, tank main here and when i play support its crazy how easy it is to deny alot of tanks just by playing a support counter to them, ex: if enemy tank plays winton, dva, or even rein i just go brig and make their live miserable while i just chill with the team lol
Absolutely. A silver 5 Ana main is significantly better at OW than a gold 2 Moira. They need to stop relying on win rate. Fix risk vs. reward and the win rates will eventually get back to where they should be.
Lets be real most of no risk chars are supports, and most skins in shop are for support role.
tinfoil hat part of me thinks this is why they keep certain supports OP and never actually nerf them. dps and tanks fluctuate in and out of meta meanwhile kiriko has been meta with every comp since release.
Oh 100%. I dont even think that's a conspiracy theory, it's just the name of the game.
Activision has research into affecting hit boxes and gun damage real-time, and see their effect on play-time and indirectly, microtransactions.
Simply not nerfing a character pales in comparison 🤣
@@arinrobinson3898 Kirkos attacks are also ultra strong. A crit from her kunai is just as bad as getting a crit from a DPS like Cassidy. And even if not a crit these things still hurt like hell. How can a support hero be as strong as a DPS?
@@arinrobinson3898 There's no tinfoil hat, they are pandering to Support players. Kiriko and Sojourn came out at the same time, and while everyone complained about Suzu and other problematic things Kiriko had in her kit, they did not do anything about it.
Sojourn on the other hand lost slow on Disruptor Shot, and receives major adjustments every few patches because she's in a meh state, and Blizzard cannot accept that she does not work without her strong burst.
@@XswingXtbf, Zen has always been able to out-dmg some of the dps role, he's just balanced by his laughably low healing. Nobody minds Zen because he has very obvious weaknesses.
Kiri being able to deal damage, as a concept, i dont mind it. However, her being able to deal damage, output massive heals, and has 2 immortality cooldowns? Yeah there's a problem there.
I completely agree. The issue is the devs know exactly what they’re doing.
They’re not trying to make a balanced product, they’re trying to make money. And the best way to do that is to keep the game fresh and make sure the the characters with the most skin sales are always good.
They knew exactly what they were doing with Kiriko. Brain dead heals to allow them to focus on high dopamine easy/lucky to use Kunai with a juicy headshot multiplier. Oh and what’s another mechanic people like in games after satisfying headshots? Mobility, so they gave her all of that.
And then there’s cleanse which is an entire other topic. We went from Baps immortality field being overpowered for a few years to adding a better more versatile version on a shorter cooldown and then completely removed the aiming part of it
Something I haven’t really seen people talk about with Kiri either is that they made her kunai more reliable when mobility characters went to 225 health. Kiri did almost no damage on a body shot before that patch, but the reward for a headshot was huge at 112.5 damage. On the current patch, she does 60 damage a body shot, only 10 less than Cass. That maybe wouldn’t be that bad, but her headshot does EVEN MORE DAMAGE than it used to at 120. So she traded 25 health for a MUCH more consistently good weapon
Well another small issue is you can't really make cool concepts anymore if everything has to be perfectly balanced you do sacrifice some creativity for balance in that sense
See I would agree the whole 5v5/6v6 thing is a distraction, however I think 5v5 FORCES more of these designs. Remember how with mostly OW1 balance still in the OW2 Beta the teamfights would resolve so fast? Made immos and easy/free heals more necessary to extend teamfights to have that brawly, OW feel with solo tank. Same with everyone having not only a mobility cooldown, but a really good one now. Gone are the days of designs like OG Zenyatta. I’m a huge 6v6 advocate because I believe we can actually start rolling some of these goofy design choices back in 6v6 to a reasonable level. Not only that, but there’s a ton of additional depth with teamplay, map control, tank battles, etc. in 6v6. But as much as I love all that stuff about the old game, what you highlight in this video has been an issue plaguing the game since Brig’s release or arguably even Moira’s. It’s the issue you point out that Blizzard refused to address which pushed us on the path to role lock, 5v5, season 9, etc. It’s why Genji has been one of the most popular, healthiest, and skillful heroes in the game since its launch yet has been a terrible pick most of the time except for 2 weeks every few years, because of these boring, free value heroes or abilities.
6v6 doesn’t fix the game, it simply allows us to fix the game.
couldn't agree more. I miss the old genji days.
@@arinrobinson3898 I think 6v6 is a good first step but after that we gotta push for better design and it might be possible since OW Devs have never been this responsive (which isnt saying alot but it is what it is)
THANK YOU! You hit the nail on the head. This is exactly why i stopped having as much fun playing overwatch and stopped playing almost at all. I check in from time to time if its any different but im not confident it ever will be given the incentives for shop sales
I play mostly tracer
ah yeah Tracer has changed from being about dueling and getting picks to mostly just baiting out cooldowns like suzu and lamp and hoping your team can follow up. you have to work 3 times as hard to get a kill. it's a slower less exciting game to play. this is why people aren't having fun anymore and it's not burnout. just shit abilities that ruin the game.
@arinrobinson3898 learning positioning is hard and unintuitive for new players, that's probably why support players felt weak so now they're easier to play I guess. Mission accomplished lol
I don't see people talking about how the hitbox changes made movement less rewarding either. You can have the best staggered A D crouch strafing where you even time your counterstrafed jump perfectly but Hanzo still hits a HS lol. What's even the point of learning the game anymore.
I watched your most recent videos and enjoyed them!
yeah, and Alec saying he likes to use positioning as if that wasn't part of the design is kind of telling how they design and balance the game.
overall OW2 and especially post season 9 the game is a lot less rewarding. the day i stopped playing daily was when i realized that winning wasn't even fun anymore. I think that's a pretty bad sign as someone who was playing for 8 years before that.
I really appreciate you watching my videos! I'm not a big creator but I try to offer some unique and different insight. Comments, views, and likes all really help so it's really appreciated!
I feel it's the balance of support abilities and power creep that has left the game feeling this way
Ana was the first new support added and I feel is well-designed
Gets most of her value from playing passively, but her defensive abilities are all resource-based and manageable
The sleep can only hit one target, the grenade often has to choose between being used passively or offensively - and both can be eaten/shielded by tank players - or dodged by movement heroes
The nano has the right balance of resistance to damage without being outright unkillable - and importantly she cannot use it on herself so she's killable, somewhat of a healing glass cannon
Comparing that with a similar design of Hero, Lifeweaver
Gets most of his value from the backline as well - wait, I meant to say ALL of his value
Not a single one of Lifeweaver's abilities has advantages for playing offensively or riskily - They are all completely passive and require you to take very little risk to get value with
They also do not *facilitate* playmaking in the same way that Nano or Mercy right-click can - for being similarly passive heroes
This doesn't strike well with the rest of the cast, who in many cases can only get value by taking some risks or by playmaking in general
The biggest play you can ever make as lifeweaver - is to use the platform to avoid an ultimate - the lifegrip to avoid an ultimate - and the tree to survive an ultimate
This slows down gameplay for both teams and doesn't fit well against other supports who can make plays or facilitate playmaking when their team is behind
Then there are the trio: Brig, Kiri, Bap
I truthfully have always felt that Bap shouldn't be able to save himself with his Lamp, and the same should be true for Kiri and Suzu
Kiri having two get-out-of-jail cards on her (suzu + teleport) causes her to play in an even more degenerate way - but they are all the same
Brig hasn't been full-power in quite a long time, but with a combination of ability rotation, passives, and ultimate - she was the original unkillable support
The problem with each is unique but ultimately all because of their ability to save themselves more than their ability to save others
Kiri is encouraged to play aggressively, but to call it playing "risky" would be disingenuous considering her ability to nope out
The other two are fully designed to play passively and deny dives by staying alive to make sure the enemies have no fun
Not to mention the damage output of these three heroes (I feel) are quite a bit above the other supports in the game with the rare exception of Zenyatta
(Who was designed that way from the start and has limited value from his other abilities to compensate for this)
As a longtime tank main - this is the issue to me
Each support has to strike a balance between survivability and opportunity cost - gaining and spending resources - so they can feel like ana - a healing glass cannon
When they start to feel like their own mini-boss they can really take over the game - and so many of the new support heroes are designed in this way imo
Edit: The DPS passive is completely anti-game-design and should be visible or communicated to the player - if they can't do that comfortably in the UI they need to remove it and either replace it with a different system entirely or adjust damage and healing numbers more specifically to replace it - without hiding information from the player
Super underrated video, I completly agree with you.
Seeing this blindness of the devs with the game design and just focusing on the winrate stats has the same energy as low rank players farming stats on the scoreboard instead of focusing on winning the game.
Thank you! I always wondered why the OW content creators wouldn't call them out on citing winrates. that part always frustrated me cause it is such a poor argument for design/balance.
Especially since when looking at win rates, they don't look at mirrormatches. But I dunno, I'm no game dev but wouldn't it be an issue if a tank was so OP 75% of the players were picking them? Nope, jus gonna ignore that an give Orisa more buffs for the week
@@arinrobinson3898 they use more than win rates it's just more a quick excuse/snippet. Iirc they were asked before on an interview.
@@muckdriver i don't doubt they have more than just the win rate statistics but my argument more so is how they are interpreting the statistics that matters and i don't think they are doing that well right now.
for instance, kiriko. she is incredibly powerful to everyone in high elo but also easy to play. her win rate overall is pretty low for many ranks at 45%. one could assume that means her abilities are weak and she shouldn't be nerfed which is what i think the devs believe now and i think that's inaccurate. her win rate isn't low because he abilities are weak, it's low because it's incredibly easy to do the wrong play and die for it. this to me is understanding the difference between game feel and game balance design. sometimes numbers need to be tweaked to determine the strength of something but sometimes abilities need to be tweaked to feel stronger, more fluid, more fair, or more obvious as to how to use them.
Win rates are one of many examples but it's a pretty piss poor stat to use in general. to me game feel is something that matters far more to a healthy game state. a healthy player perception is key to longevity of a game. which is why i am concerned on the state of overwatch now.
Very well spoken. It doesn't matter how many players are on the field; playing against characters that can gain value from simply existing or having no counterplay present isn't an enjoyable game-play experience.
My personal hot take:
Dps passive is a mistake, either it should be global or just be removed and then all healling from supports nerfed.
.
Suzu and lifegrip should not cleanse or pull alies that got hit by ultimates. Ults in general should feel impactful and only be countered by another ult, I doubt anyone has a problem with sound barrier or trans.
Like, why does suzu now dont cleanse the rein shatter, but counters Junkerqueen's rampage?
Obs: im a support main but im with you tank mains
i agree dps passive is a mistake. i talk about it in other videos but it just makes the game more inconsistent and confusing. the opposite of good design. just nerf healing across the board.
and yeah no one was complaining when it was ult for ult trade. regular abilities should not counter ults unless they are extremely hard to do like sleep dart. however since season 9 made everything easier to hit that also kind of fucked things up. i think the devs believe they are making it more accessible but it's actually more frustrating. i like abilities that offer skill expression over just immediate value.
Suzu is a great hard counter to Sombra's ult. But if it were restricted to the single target hack then yea it would make more sense I suppose. Still a lot of ults are hard countered. Dva ult being eaten by a shield. Dva matrix eating Reapers ult. I think it's good some ults are counterable. Part of getting off an ult is knowing when it will fail. Kill the Kiriko or bait suzu before ulting. Don't die die die when Dva has matrix. Ana ult is hard to stop, but it is easily squandered. I think over-emphasis on needing fair balance is actually wrong. I love overcoming Zarya as Dva even though it is hard mode. You learn to play more poke and conservative, and you'll eventually turn the tides if your team out plays. This is a team game after all. Some metas need fixed, but ruining the strength or unique utility of certain characters isn't great. I like staying on a hero to see if I can overcome any challenge, but constant line up changes are also part of the game you can take advantage off. Meta's are only bad when everyone goes the same thing every time in order to win, and there is not a single counter. So it's just all hard picking that meta as opposed to playing rock paper sissors which is what the game should be.
I only half agree cuz if this was the case you'd have to remove things like rein being able to block Dva bomb or Dva eating wholehog and Phara barrage etc which just feels dumb I do think some ults should be better rewarded but there are some things that should have more options available vs em
Great vid. I'm honestly surprised this hasn't been reacted to yet by streamers with larger followings.
part of me thinks that would be pretty cool and another part of me is afraid of the large influx of opinions and hate i would get from support players haha honestly of all the OW creators i think spilo probably has the best takes when it comes to design and balance so it'd be cool to see him react.
THANK YOU.
and my main deal with this problem is that this diverse cast of playstyles.
from moira and genjis.
COULD work, if they took time to balance the risk and reward.
i truly believe even the most "UnBaLanCED" characters like sombra, venture, sym or torb. can be made better if tweaked and given slight reworks around a central focus of their kit.
agreed, moira was supposed to be the easiest hero in the game to me and pre season 9 i felt she was in a good spot. post season 9 along with the addition of heroes like life weaver and kiriko the risk to reward is just not enjoyable anymore. I have to try super hard putting myself in a risky position to get a kill and a lifeweaver can hang out 30m back and 8m up on a petal never missing a heal. so not only do i need to get him to waste lifegrip i need to put myself at risk a second time to get a pick in a 19 second window. that's a lot to ask from players. god forbid they have two immortality abilities. it just feels unfair and unrewarding. there is also limited to no skill expression on some of these heroes and abilities. ana's heals are dynamic and multipurpose. lifeweaver and kiriko heals are boring and 1 dimensional. they also keep removing weaknesses from characters. reaper can tp in air, cassidy can roll through damage, kiriko has 0 weaknesses. players having all the control and no weaknesses just makes this game a casual shooter now. it just becomes frustrating and even winning isn't fun anymore.
The risk/reward of a hero like kiriko is opportunity.
Sitting and healing when you could go for a quick flank is a risk, you need to evaluate when you can. Suzu-ing when you dont need to (say your moira is low hp but she had fade), youre risking wasting it
The risk of dying is low, but the risk of throwing the fight still exists.
I play all roles
nothing about kiriko is that hard. I had never played her before and got GM in 3 hours first time i ever tried. I will die on this hill.
@@arinrobinson3898
I dont think shes as hard as heros like tracer or doom I get that but to me shes still harder than most heros on any role to max her value out. Shes also just worse now than she used to be, lower hp slower heals, healbot kiri got nerfed hard early on
@@Htiyi think bro is still playing day 1 kiri in his mind and refuses to acknowledge the current one the ground situation
IMO (though these are by no means new ideas), Ana nade should cause 50% healing reduction rather than 100%. Bap should get Mitigation Field rather than Immortality field, and be on a shorter cooldown. Cleanse should maybe make debuffs last half as long rather than totally erase it, but do more healing.
Also DPS passive should be changed, enhanced, and visually indicated (like anti-heal is) but perhaps rather than triggered by all damage, be triggered only by debuffs and boops (like Dynamite burning, Widow Poison, Pharah's Concussion) so it creates short windows of opportunity where you can break through enemy heals by using cooldowns, giving DPS time to shine, but then when they're on cooldown, the Supports get their time to shine, so the balance shifts moment to moment. Some heroes like Bastion and Reaper wouldn't get these cooldowns because they already have high burst. edit: Oh, and Tanks would be able to get in on this action too, like Winston knocking you around in Ult would cause this debuff to trigger since it's a boop, maybe they can give Rein's firestrike a burn effect too which triggers this etc. Supports should be able to make lifesaving plays one moment, but then DPS and Tanks should be able to make plays that totally cut through the supports healing the next moment etc. Rather than having entire seasons where supports are underpowered and then overpowered etc. depending on how strong DPS passive is.
As a bap main I agree. I would like damage reduction way more than outright immortality. Ana's nade is fine as it is right now. Kiri's suzu should be a cleanse rather than immortality. The only immortality that should be in the game would have to be an ult.
I like your dps passive idea too.
@@w1ndt I was thinking Ana's anti be reduced just so that the game can move away from hard counters a bit more. Since Ana is like really good against Hog and Mauga but a bit less effective against Rein who can block it with his barrier. And so if Ana is ever not the best support and other supports get picked more, that will cause the dreaded Hog and Mauga to rise in prominence etc. Also I think if they reduced anti, they reduce the cooldown which allows Ana to use it on herself more when she gets dived upon etc. which again reduces hard counters a bit more and makes her weakness less glaring and smooths her out a bit more, especially since pretty much all other supports except Zen have good mobility.
Obviously if Ana's nade got changed, Mauga and Hog would need to get a nerf too since it'd be an indirect buff to them. Junker Queen's ultimate would need to do more direct damage too if anti effect got nerfed.
All this is just thinking out loud, probably all terrible and ill-informed but meh lol.
Oh, also cleanse would be less important if Ana's anti was less powerful too. And you're right about the immortality, cleanse probably doesn't need to be changed. I think they designed Bap to be a hero who can make a life saving play on someone about to die, similar to Lifeweaver's life grip... But perhaps they should just give the Immortality field an initial burst heal and then damage reduction instead if they wanted it to be used reactively still, rather than just proactively. I think it'd be more fun if it had a wider AoE too since some people will just walk out of it when you put it down which is frustrating.
Suzu is fine as a cleanse but it's just that it does too much pick two things and keep em intangible and cleanse? Sure cleanse and immunity fine heal and immunity maybe but the fact it does cleanse, heal, intangible, and immunity is excessive they gotta cut back on all that it does
"baiting" suzu is not a weakness, she still has many usable abilties outside that. weakness is when you mess up and nothing you do can make up for the value youve lost
"Many usable abilities"? You mean TP? Suzu is just a self heal tied to a split second invincibility. The only heroes who get countered by that are those with one shots, and those deserve all of the suffering.
Also, advocating for MORE counterwatch is stupid af and you should be ashamed.
@@ImaTroper Don’t really think you should be calling other people stupid if you say that Suzu is just a self heal and minor immortality. It counters every single ability, including several ults, that apply a status effect. Because of the immortality it also counters several ults with large instances of damage like Pulse, Deadeye, Flux, Terra Surge, etc.
All said, Kiri’s non-ultimate ability counters the majority of the cast. She low-key already has “counterwatch” in her kit.
@@ImaTroperTalk about counterwatch and you're defending Kiri?????
All tanks are 5 star difficulty with an exception of 3 (Hog, Mauga and Orisa on a good patch) The Tank is so easy to hit with everything because im the Biggest character on the board but im also the Floor General so if I make a mistake I have to hear about it EVERYTIME but i was genuinely playing my best....
Love this video btw I really feel like this game doesn't get analyzed as much as it should as far as player to player or role to role scenarios. When the developers touch the game they give passives, needs, buffs and number changes. However there's is no real change to how the game is played.
@@swimm3rcity as a profesional complainer. this is true. but im gonna say that dva is annoying. she spams and spams even with her shield open. she should not be allowed to use her abilities with her shield
On god
There was some youtuber that reimagined all the problematic support abilities, such as giving ana nade a damage cap so it doesn't stop healing by an infinite amount during it's duration, but instead like only 300 maximum. Another was reworking suzu to be a fast cooldown quick healing ability rather than a get out of jail free card. Immortality would also just reduce damage by a high percentage rather than just outright make heroes unkillable. I don't remember anything for lifeweaver though, but his grip is arguably even worse than suzu since an otherwise free kill on someone who's out of position can get away scott free without any sacrifice or punishment whatsoever.
Hog gets a lot of hate but at least he can cut through that bullshit and just kill someone before they get pumped with healing
Hog is based. I despise watching healers pocket each other making each other immortal.
hog is frustrating and they ruined him by taking away his weaknesses but i can't blame tank players who want to play him and cut through the bullshit. cheese vs cheese is what ends up happening in bad design.
This is the reason why I like hog and perfectly sums up why supports hated him s1-3. He’s annoying to play against at times but he doesn’t let dumbass shit slide or let players do whatever they want
Honestly with supports being this powerful I wouldn’t mind 5V5 with 1 support and 2 other roles
It would be Overwatch tower defence lol. And if the 1 support happened to die then they would just out sustain the other team.
Thank you for this video, it's a good watch.
I do have some counterpoints tho
I Would place support more in the middle of that diagonal on your graph. This is because in 5v5 the tank role becomes more important, precisely because there is just one tank.
Picture for example a situation with a tank being, idk tired, and because of that screwing up the hole match. This is a much bigger deal when there isnt another tank to counteract it. So the support needs to play differently, and crucially be designed differently, to weigh that in.
EDIT 1: Claryfying how it all relates to supports
I would disagree in the sense that i weighted more based on one's ability to individually contribute and how hard it is vs how hard it is as that role in a team environment. if that makes sense. this is because no matter what if you have a tank that's feeding in OW2 whether you're dps or support you just can't win anymore. in terms of how difficult the heroes are to play and how much value they get out of their abilities is how i sort of envisioned it.
They need to hire you as a developer. I agree with everything you said in this video.
I will say, as a support main: No, I'm not having fun with the current state of the game.
I miss 6v6, and hate having to both keep the team up AND have to 1v1 every dps that jumps me. I won't say that support is the worst role to play (that very much is tank), but playing support means having the responsibility of playing two roles at once-- so (in 5v5) we had to be given the power to survive **being** two roles at once. Personally, I'd rather go back to being weaker if it meant I had a functional team that peeled for me, instead of the scattered formations of the current game that leave supports open to endless flanks.
The only support who cant win a 1v1 with a dps is probably mercy. The DPS player has to be better than you 99% of the time to win the 1v1 if they go for a flank. Unless cass hits 3 headshots in a row on kiri, she is just gonna suzu herself and probably win or force him to retreat. Stop blaming your team when they actually have to use their brain to play the game and you don't
That makes a lot of sense, and I personally want 6v6 so that tank isn’t ultra ass at all times to play. However, I really love to play support in the current format. Since you have such potent offensive power and supportive utility, you can be constantly emitting a huge amount of value if you play it right. It’s a broken role overall, but that’s why it’s so fun!
@@morganmcleod3157 I can understand where you're coming from.
For myself though, I hate being overpowered, min-maxing, and playing metas. I actively have less fun knowing that what I'm doing has less to do with me, and more to do with broken tools that I'm abusing in order to engage with the game less, or give the enemy team less counterplay.
I love fairness; and the kill isn't fun without the hunt.
@@miwky406 Yeah that's so facts especially with the recent Juno release. There is a perverse comedy though when I am not doing much on Juno, but it's fine because I just press Q and the team fight is completely unlosable.
The issue of risk/reward is not so clearly “tanks are all risk, no reward. Supports are the opposite.” For example, Roadhog has absolutely minimal risk landing a hook for massive reward. Ball also has low risk with shields and grapple but pretty free value with being impossible to track in metal ranks. Overall I think this is a great video, but it’s definitely more nuanced than presented, especially when supports and problematic dps are the primary targets beyond silver.
i left out hog and ball but you are correct. they have the problem of all reward and no counter play. it's a huge issue. orisa could fall into that too. we could say that's a problem of 5v5 or it's a problem of poorly designed kits or both. i think that new roadhog is 1000% worse than he was in OW1. i think the increase in tank health, reduced headshot damage, reduced CC, and season 9 projectile changes were all bad for the game that has made this worse. fighting orisa is just shooting a wall and ball is just shooting a moving wall. all these heroes you have to hard counter with cheesy picks like sombra, ana, zarya, etc... cause if you don't you legit can't do anything to them and it makes for frustrating gameplay. i use generalizations in this video for sure because tank overall is not in a healthy state and i believe it's immortality abilities and dps passive to blame but there are definitely cheese designs and balance issues that only further the problem of more counter picking. if OW starts to address these issues that make tank miserable to play but also miserable to shoot i will most definitely make a video on hog, ball, and orisa if i haven't already.
This is an excelent video
Thank you!
Im a rein otp, i was hardstuck in low plat for 6 months and i find tank(rein) until they play annoying/counters to my guy like the flyers, bastion, kiri weavers e beats my q with no risk, half the tanks i have a bad matchup into like orisa who just stands there or doom, dva or ball who just outpace me. Then if i go for the supports i get slept antied, they tp away or lamp and jump away cant dive mercy if theres a zen im perma discord brig and lucio jump boop me and i cant control my guy as well as new juno who has so much mobility i cant do anything so what do i do nothing just hope the dps do something so i can walk forward cuz if i push to early im dead but i still like this game so i hope they can make tank(specifically rein for me) feel better to play and last thing if im in a fight and my dps aren't there for whatever even and there no dps passive i swear ive swing on a ana 6 times and so would do cuz the healing in this game is so high. Maybe its just a skill issue or cuz im one trick but idk also ive only been playing since ow2 so im only a 5 v 5er and it wasn't this bad at launch tank was better on release idk what happened, sorry last thing fix rein pin it is the most fair one shot in the game imo so it makes no sense why its so bugged and doesn't work how it should half the time
problem is healing is so inconsistent that if you're swinging on ana she either survives it all or she blows up instantly and you won't know why cause you can't see who your dps are looking at. it's just poor design to give a dps passive instead of tuning healing. to top it off if ana is getting healed by a support like kiriko or lifeweaver they'll never miss so even though it takes skill for rein to close that gap and play risky they take no risks at all healing from far away while also never being able to miss. it creates a very frustrating feeling of inconsistency and confusion for players. so lower elo or not part of it is a failure by design.
As a fighting game player, this just sounds like you aren't adjusting to what you're opponents are good at. Rein is good in close range, but what he's really good at, is threatening people who get close to him. Remember, playing tank isn't about killing supports, your role is to hold and make space. Why are you, as a slow melee tank, even attempting to chase mercy? Chances are you were out of position friend...
A different perspective like this is exactly what the devs need to see.
I've only played the game for 2 years and this was literally 1 of the problems I kinda instantly spotted. I came into OW thinking ya know skilled/high risk characters are going to get a lot of reward but as I played for a couple of months in those 2 years I realized it was the opposite and it was frustrating cuz the characters I like and want to play as I couldn't cuz I would get shit 💩💩💩 on by a player objectively using a easier to play character basically I have to put more effort in the engagement than the other player and they have less risk for the same engagement too. I main dps but as soon as I went on support it felt mad easy truthfully I'm not over exaggerating or anything it for real felt so much easier 😂 and when I went on tank oh boi I was having the time of my life on tank 💀 I kinda didn't want to switch off and some of the easier dps characters too.
exactly, why spend 1000 hours learning genji when you could just hitscan from far away or learn good positioning with zen when kiriko does everything he does better and safer? it's a huge problem and imbalance among the cast of heroes.
@@arinrobinson3898hitscan is bad now. You can't even 2 tap most of them as cree now unless you're literally in their faces and you don't have a stun to defend yourself from tanks. In ow1 you were dead if you got too close to a cree, that was the point of the character.
That unsalted clip has me dying holy shit
As a support player, I agree 👍
That feeling when you use Rampage just to get Suzu out early so enemy team can die
Honestly it just sounds like a teamwork issue. The issue of what are you supposed to do solo against another person's play is that you're forgetting it's a team game. If you're chasing / pressuring a support they aren't healing. If your DPS aren't making the supports lives hell that's on them but it's not the tanks job to fix alone. Take lifeweaver for example, if he pulls somebody to a safe space id start asking why the life weaver has so much space to work with. I can't tell you the number of times I've missed grips and life saving heals because I've got flankers pelting me in the side of the head forcing me to react. It's not a matter of risk vs reward if no pressure is being applied. Also, know that control is never in your hands as an individual in this game unless you're smurfing. You simply cannot forget you're not playing against robots; the enemies are going to react to what you're doing and you have to account for that. If the enemy Bap feels comfortable sitting on their lamp until the perfect time then your dps aren't doing their jobs as usually a flanking DPS can force a lamp out pretty quickly.
Often times people that say that are doing the most for the team because they have the most dmg are also running in alone and dying making it impossible to fight as a team in which case they are a big reason why the team lost.
Win rate sure is a tricky statistic to use. I wonder how ascertain what is happening from using it.
it has value but it's very contextual. a big part of game design is being able to ask yourself when you fail "what could i have done better". i think that team 4 doesn't do a good job with that part.
This is what needs to be heard that nobody is mentioning about the game. Especially for Widowmaker, there's nothing "risky" about bunkering up on the opposite side of the map doing nothing, not engaging with the enemy, not being near the objective, unseen, and picking people off with ridiculously huge sightlines. Widow is all reward, no risk.
Widowmaker isn’t easy to play, I don’t even play widow but I feel like people really underplay her alot it’s not easy to consistently hit headshot & survive dives yes it’s not fun to lose too but ya’ll gotta stop saying there’s no risk to playing widow because you not being consistent is the risk
@@Selflessthehelplessyes but most heroes have to hit shots. In fact they have to do it nore often in more stressful situations. Whole moving.
Widow is hard to pick up but the skill to master needed is lower simply because you have only one acis of skill you improve on.
I@@pasteldad39 i hope you don't think you get to just sit in one place and shoot on widow. The pressure is highest on you to get picked. It is 100% high risk high reward. The problem isn't paying her it's paying against her. THAT feels shitty. Because a one shot out of nowhere in a game like this will always feel shitty
@@MrProdigy810 Im sorry but the angle change and gamesense requirements if widow are just very low. Even someone with 40 IQ can probably figure out the gamesense needed to pilot widow.
She is almost entirely aim
@@pasteldad39 i agree. But if you sit in the same spot the entire time you will die. If you can't hit your shots, you will probably die. Even if you don't, you become nearly useless and anyone else would be a better pick. She is extremely susceptible to dive. If you get dove and you can't hit your shots or you're too far away because you decided to sit back far as fuck and someone got the jump on you: dead. Not to mention there are characters she just cant interact with well. Even without engaging her, if you have a team like sigma, torb, bastion, she now has almost no one to oneshot, since she cant oneshot any of them and their damage output to the rest of her team is ridiculously high, invalidating the pick. I'm sorry, but she is the definition of high risk, high reward. She is that character that is fun to play as but shitty to play against. That shittiness has been magnified by the amount of supports that can save her or invalidate her dive bringing us back to the issue of supports. About the only thing I would change on widow is to make it so her rifle didn't one-shot in close proximity. Other than that, I don't think there is much you can change on such a gimmicky character
The amount of games I get kiriko on my team who doesn’t know how to use her utility, which is game changing, hurts me. They play her cause she has the cute skins, but dammit! Learn your character and you will climb. I don’t want to be toxic but when Kiriko has low risk high reward and you still manage to throw games, it’s rage inducing.
suzu is such a huge and crucial ability that when you die and you see it thrown out late is frustrating especially when you get them to use theirs first. suzu is a mid fight game changer which has way too much power in deciding duels.
thankyou sir, spreading the gospel
Its simple math:
Make game easier and free to play to attract new players to sell more skins while the health of the game suffers. We've all seen this game get dumbed downed over the years and there's no rolling it back now😅
The game is dumbed down and definitely a casuals game now. I will say they could roll it back and fix it but I think I'd rather play they lottery for better chances.
I’m only about 5 minutes in but so far it seems like the problem is 90% “healing too high”. Instead of a DPS passive, it should have been an everybody passive and it should reduce healing 15-20% in combat. You should not be able to heal pocket someone taking constant damage. Sorry tanks, you have to take cover sometimes. Same to you, mercy pocketed DPS.
If tanks also had the DPS passive, they would feel so much better and be so much happier. They miserable because they can’t get kills. They feel weak. Everyone should get the DPS passive.
@@spacecowboy7193 pretty spot on yeah, dps passive being invisible makes take feel inconsistent and unrewarding to play because healing is too out of control. just giving them the same passive and removing the damage reduction would probably make the game feel better for everyone.
@ I’ve never heard anyone say “give tanks the DPS passive too” but I think it would go a LONG way in solving a lot of the problems.
role lock is one of the main problems, along with role passives
AOE healing abilities should never go above like 40 or 50 hps. And even then it's a bit much. APE healing as a whole needs to be scaled down to around where lucio heal is
Lucio heal is terrible tho if it was slightly better then it would be a better base but Lucio heal is genuinely so bad it doesn't help anybody even DOT effects can kill through his healing and that's just ridiculous
@sebastianrodriguez8992 i think that the issue is other healing numbers being too high
6v6 just muddled the game to where nobody noticed that brig, bap, and moira are cancer. And then they added kiri which is basically the most annoying parts of both baps and moiras kit.
Speaking of supports. Where do you think juno sits as far as risk vs reward?
@@blazestrange4499 she's solid all around and one of the best designed supports since Ana however there's two issues. 1. The homing rockets. There's no counter play to them, it's not impressive to do, you're not going to see a homing rocket montage, it's inconsistent in it's predictability, there is no skill expression in it, you can't even tell you're being locked on in a fight. overall just a poorly designed ability that falls under the typical ow2 design philosophy of "fun for me but not for thee". 2. Her ult works and it kind of makes sense for her kit thematically but I'm so tired of support ults either being A mass aoe heal, B mass aoe do more damage as a team C a little of both. There's a lot of support ults that just demand space and there's not a lot of counterplay when they're activated. So you get a lot of space for free the moment you hit Q. Similar problem I have to ram ult. Counterplay is just not be there. I want Ults to be strong but still have obvious weaknesses and there needs to be more than 1. Since Juno can do damage and heal it would've been cool if she activated her ult and her gun got super charged for instance. Become more like an Uzi with increased her heal and damage. That can show off a lot of player choice in the moment but also requires skill to show off the better Juno players.
Every new hero and every new ability ask yourself "how do I counter this? How many options do I have?" A good example is to look at magnetic grenade and why it failed so hard they went back to flashbang. The more confusing, one dimensional, and inconsistent abilities are the worse they're designed.
i'd say most of this is due to ease of access of healing
removing most characters fixes this. also moira needs a range nerf. so if she commits to a kill. she needs to commit instead of long ranging from her team.
i think pre season 9 moira wasn't so bad. she felt like she was in a healthier spot then. she's definitely an annoying hero but making her already easy to aim damage ability even easier was not the call IMO. but i think season 9 overall was a terrible idea and ruined the game for the worse.
Supports are literal super heroes when played correctly
Which is why genji feels so awful
@@minibaconboi9898 100%
"Its so boring im going crazy playing this shit game" sums up why it's currently not installed on my console and after Marvel Rivals drops probably never will be again
I quit after last season after 8 years and haven't missed it at all. It's literally a balance design issue. I feel for creators whose job it is to play right now. Once another game comes along to fill that vacuum overwatch left itself it'll be a lot of people leaving.
@arinrobinson3898 I used to watch a lot of creators and comparing their old content to now it seems like they're being held hostage. There's no passion anymore and I don't think it can ever come back.
Yeah and I hate all the people gaslighting and being dismissive when they're saying what they don't like about the game and people just tell them it's burnout. Like no, I was having fun, then these changes happened, and now I'm not. It's really not that complicated.
“DPSs are high risk high reward “
Yeah and there’s Genji and his pool noodle lol
Great video tho! I know this is a video more about tank and support design problems I just find it funny
LMAO exactly though. genji used to be a feared dps and now he's shutdown by supports that look at the ground and hit E. poor guy.
I agree with what you were saying until rein vs zarya, you clearly don't play rein my friend you can't just pin in and shield out 😂😂 maybe in gold you can but 700 hp is a myth when you hit box is that big saying zarya takes more risk then reinhardt is just simply objectively false in zarya you just sit back and lazer the other tank whereas on rein you die for misplays most every time to things like bastion junkrat and Cass who are in almost every game and unlike zarya rein has to take risks to win the game you can't just sit there afk. Unfortunate you see an afk hero as the one who takes risk its like saying orisa takes more risk then doom because doom can make a misplay then jump out, it doesn't make sense.
i'm talking mostly about the zarya vs rein matchup as that is what makes that matchup difficult and not hypothetically thinking of including cass, bastion, and junk counterswapping matchups that would make it harder on rein. rein has the advantage on her so he can punish her easier without a doubt. increasing health pools only gives the hero with the advantage a greater advantage. if we want to get rid of the focus on counterswapping then we need to focus on how these heroes play in their worst matchups and what their kits need to counter play those matchups and not just buff what they do better.
The problem is is that
This why open que is best. 2 tanks is fun
This video completely ignores the amount of value you get by just being able to soak up 600 damage. How much work and effort does it take to take 500 damage then back up behind cover.
This is not a biased video at all, right? Lots of DPS have low risk, high rewards...
1. everyone has bias it's literally impossible not to have bias. that's why there's thing such as unconscious bias. which is fine all we can do is try to be as aware of them as possible and open to other arguments.
2. i cannot address every issue with every character in overwatch in a single video that isn't like 48 hours long. just because it's not mentioned doesn't mean i think it isn't problematic. sombra was the cheesiest hero on dps for like 2-3 seasons and she immediately got a rework while the supports remain untouched so to compare them to dps is a bit disingenuous.
3. even knowing all that as someone who plays all roles but has the most fun on dps i still understand each to the same degree in the past getting GM on every role or M4 post season 9 and i don't even play as much anymore if at all now.
4. i went to school for game art and design, I've shipped 2 AAA titles, indie titles, worked on PC, PS4, and VR in 15 years. I've been a prop artist, tech artist, environment artist, character artist, and systems designer so basically everything except program because i just know games. it's actually the thing i do so in saying that yes, i could have an unconscious bias but i also have a long history of knowing how games are made, designed, and how to improve them with a proven track record. I also know the politics that plague game studios.
i don't have a lot of things i will say i'm amazingly good at. i like to skateboard and i'm not great, i can't cook for shit, i'm decent at fixing things that break, but sit me down in front of a game and i could easily make it feel and play better without a doubt. it's what i do.
@@arinrobinson3898 Do not get me wrong, I watched the entire video and I agree with almost everything of what you say; especially about tanks. I am just tired of the typical DPS discourse, it gets predictable and boring very fast. Relatively to the CDs you cited, we could say knowing how to keep them (or not waste them) and when to use them properly need an amount of skill and game-sense. For what concerns the other points, fair arguments. Indeed, we all have internalized bias, I just believe you could have tried to show the pro-DPS ones in a less apparent way, given that the DPS roster offers lots of cheese as well. I also believe saying supports didn't get touched is a bit disingenuous from your part: 225 hps is not a small change; making them less survivable is a pretty big deal. However, we could argue some oppressive supports need nerfs/tweaks, and - despite being a support main (here's my bias) - I can agree with you: Bap Lamp, Pylon, Ress are just some of the abilities causing frustrations by lack of interaction. Those abilities could need and should get some changes. Regarding S9, I would have actually preferred healing numbers nerfs rather than the dps passive, it would be so much healthier as you also stated. One question if you may answer: which politics are you referring to?
P.S.: I'd love to listen to your analysis and points of view about the recent Widow/Sombra state.
@@Norfyo everything will take a certain amount of skill or game sense but with immortalities it's just game sense. so if you take a player with already great skill and game sense and give them abilities that can't miss and create a lot of value it creates a problem. for instance, my first time on kiriko i got to gm in 3 hours. after 8 years of tracer it was incredibly easy for me to figure out. on the dps side a high value easy ability would be something like hack which i also think is not designed in a great way.
the parts they do touch on supports are not the ones that need to be addressed though. making their health 25 lower or a 1 second cool down isn't the issue people have with them when the issue is the immortality abilities. fps games are more fun when people die. having free instant deny buttons on 15 second cooldowns that can deny ultimate isn't fun. especially when those abilities affect tank the most.
i agree with you on the lamp, pylon, res, but also would include life grip and suzu but also some of the ways that healing is done. the auto aim healing of supports doesn't offer any skill expression and there could be better ways to design abilities. there are abilities that allow you to do something vs abilities that just do something for you. too many supports have a lot of the latter.
i agree with getting rid of the dps passive. I've made other videos on it but it's just confusing, you can't see it, and makes damage inconsistent on tank. nerfing healing across the board would have been better. i also dislike all of season 9 though. making things easier to do was never the solution. player frustration happens when they do not understand how they could have done something better. making aiming easier only made the delicate balance of higher elo worse and less fun to play because now there was less margin for error at the top. i don't believe this helped the casual audience because it didn't really matter to them anyway and the goal was always high elo but now even high elo players are having less fun because before they could take risks and now can't because no one will miss. then it turned into more about cycling your abilities as a team than trying to outplay as individuals. also super buffing single tanks only made the game worse and i made other videos on that too.
politics is not a USA red or blue but office politics. the video game industry doesn't reward based on skill alone but getting people to like you. the best ideas don't always win and egos get in the way a lot. there's a lot of people that fail upwards cause of their soft skills. the industry is small so people tend to play nice and most games that fail probably had a large number of people that knew it would but couldn't do anything to fix it because the risk of rocking the boat and being blacklisted is too great. the same frustrations and arguments players have happen internally as well.
sombra's problem is people don't understand how to play her kit on the dev side so they keep reworking her without a vision. removing perma stealth and attaching it to only her translocator which is her most important ability is proof to me they don't really get that character. the hack is also very lame skill expression, perma invis was always a terrible idea in the same way a permanent pylon is. it's extremely high value with almost no risk. the virus is not an ability i'm all that attached to and just doesn't flow well with her kit. sombra is supposed to be OW's version of the spy from tf2 but the spy was high risk high reward and had to be up close. hack can be strong but should be a skill shot so there's a margin for error so it's not frustrating to get hacked and it can be dodged or blocked. i have more ideas but although i understand that she was a cheesy hero she was still incredibly easy to deal with IMO compared to other heroes.
widow's issues are mostly with 5v5 and map design. there's one less tank to hold her at bay and the maps like circuit royal are so badly designed that you can't avoid the long sight lines and there's no way to close the gap to kill her. unlike most dps that need to take an angle she can sit in the safest spot which is a problem. so the question is how can we allow players to close that gap or shoot from different angles? i don't mind having her as a high risk high skill character but she can't be given maps with free sight lines and no way to get around them. i can't snipe for instance, i can't widow vs widow in my elo so i don't try. i play tracer but even with her mobility there are sometimes no way to get around to her to deal with her and my tank can't leave to deal with her since he's holding the space at the front line. players need counterplay to feel like they could have done something different. if you die down a long sight line on first peek you might try route B or C but if there's only route A and you don't have a sniper on your team players get frustrated and blame the game/character which is bad design. the counter to widow was genji, tracer, winston, and dive heroes but even they can't close the gap on a map like circuit royal and it's much easier to deny them now. even if i close the gap on a widow and force grapple if there's a life grip/lamp/suzu or heals from characters that can't miss healing and she lives and the problem still exists. this is what i mean by immortalities affect everything. even the counters no longer counter and the amount of effort and risk a dps like tracer/genji needs to take to close the gap on a widow on circuit royal doesn't line up with how easy she can stay alive with all these easy to use abilities. even after closing the gap it feels like i need to kill someone 2-3 times before they actually die. what am i as a dps supposed to do when even closing the gap is no longer a way to deny her? the only logical route is play widow or nerf her. that's not good design. it's not the hero but the abilities and map that allow her to dominate so easily.
OW2 has become more linear in it's game design because of things like this. players no longer feel like they have options. that's when players get bored and that's when they leave. that is my theory why so many creators are suddenly feeling the same thing all at once. OW used to be a competitive game about individuals skill adding to the value of their team. now it's linear, one dimensional, and requires your team to be coordinated in a game where no one joins voice out of fear of being banned. to me it's not a surprise why people aren't having fun anymore.
Dont even wanna watch the video 30 seconds is all I need to see. There is no problem, risk reward is necessary. Just because an ability takes time to charge doesnt mean it should mean a free kill. It just means its gonna be more impactful if done right. No one wants to learn how to play around, anticipate, or counter things. None of you need to be playing games if your concern is, "Its unfair that someone can stop me from doing something". Thats life and its a HUGE part of it. Just because you press button doesnt mean you should get kill.
You see, the problem is that you're playing Overwatch
Wait... Widow is a high risk character? XD
Try playing further away bro, she's a sniper.
Did I mention widow in this video?
You’re not waiting for the suzu (7:47). If you need to bait a suzu, you can be more aggressive to force the suzu that the kiri player knows they need to hold for rampage
I'm well aware how suzu works and unsure the point you're trying to make here.
8:01 don't play jq into mei. Swap
Pure cope. How are dps all low risk, when most have no form of self sustain? How are tanks al high risk with 1000 hp. Tanks can just stand still and get value. How does ot make sense that you get a 1000 hp and just as much proactive ability as a character with 225?
dps are all high risk high reward... tanks are front line and full focus but don't have the dps passive to secure kills and are unable to see who has it applied. did you pay attention at all?
Tanks recently have been extremely high reward with little to no risk, it's battle of the giants with 8 spectators and whichever tank dies first loses the boringly, long, high sustain fight. The problem is not that you don't get value as tank, you do get value, and quite a lot, it's just mostly not visible, and the game practically forces you to countweswap the enemy tank to win since they all have such inflated stats to try to balance only having one of them in 5v5, most tanks can win a 2v1 easily because of that, but that doesn't mean it's fun to play tank.
Also, the "oh but kiri has suzu and negates all my abilities" argument falls apart the moment you have a kiri on your own team because she will save you from as many mistakes as their kiri saves their team, this goes for most "oh but (insert character name) can (insert ability) my (insert ability)" so can tanks, they can do at least one of these: stun, block, eat, heal or just run away from danger, all canceling most enemy abilities.
Just to clarify, I play all 3 roles and this is just my opinion, no hate or anything like that.
@@Ca_tGirlyea no. A jq is the only one who can casually and consistently win a 2v1 and THATS if they make mistakes. Almost everything you said was wrong and i aint got yhe thousand words to sum your 200 of BS
@@Ca_tGirl whichever tank dies first does ultimately decide the fight i agree but their value doesn't come from their ability to make plays and secure kills which is the fun of a shooter. their value comes from holding space. like you said if the tank dies you lose so it's in your best interest as tank to not die and just hold the space and that is the new tank gameplay loop. the inconsistency tanks feel when attacking targets feeling like they can secure kills vs when they can't is all dependent on their dps hitting that dps passive. and like i said in my video too the inflation of tank stats didn't make anything better and only made counterswapping worse. as for the kiri suzu having one on your team doesn't make it better. there is no counterplay to suzu other than get them to use it so you can finally get a kill. it doesn't make it less frustrating to have a kiri on your team it just means it's frustrating on both sides cause the risk to reward for that ability and other immortalities is what makes it not fun. just like bap throwing a lamp behind a wall on a grav he's already in a super low risk position and has a super high reward ability that's really easy to use. tanks do not get this luxury. even if a tank is attacking someone their damage is usually so low that even if their landing their shots without the dps passive one of the many auto aim healers will be able to keep them alive and that's the frustration is that how do you outplay someone that can never miss? there is also no creative way to use those heals they just heal for you. there's no way to use suzu in a creative way you just try not to use it first. tanks being buffed to all hell made the game objectively worse but that's my point is that the game has been removing counterplay and replacing it with super buffed stats and abilities that just do things for you. it becomes less of a game about skill and more about who cycles their abilities better. there is no counterplay to suzu, lamp, life grip. you cannot out aim auto heals and secure kills without the dps passive. so tanks job is literally to be a wall and cause pressure but never play make. that is the fundamental problem OW2 is experiencing and why it isn't fun. the game is overcomplicated now because instead of just nerfing supports they've given hidden passive, increased projectile sizes, and buffed tanks when the problem is and always has been denial abilities that are too easy to use that provide too much value when no other role has that.
certified support main take
overwatch team should watch more youtube videos. unfortunately this is ''way to much work and blah blah'' (they want to make money with support skins)
I don't like those intro-clips. You had a bunch of clips where the hardest ult to use in the game was poorly used, versus clips of good teamwork and resource utilization. Of course tank looks like shit there.
Also worth mentioning, while tank is harder than support on its face, I refuse to say that tank is some hellscape of risk reward. A rein in the right place can kill the entire team. A winston who knows how to pester and hold space can hold off an entire team. When you account for the ability to hold, maintain, and gain space, this equation evens out a lot in my mind. To me, tank is high risk, medium to high reward (low utility usually, but high ability to take space), dps is high risk high reward (balanced space taking and utility), and supports are medium risk, medium to high reward (but not much ability to make space usually, and if they do, like zen for example, they trade that for higher risk)
You also always circle back to this argument that tank isn't allow to be proactive because they have to take account of ccs and utility (???). Maybe it's because I come from fighting games, but this seems like such an off mindset when it comes to understanding games. As someone who started support and has been learning tank (winston, sig, rein), I just acknowledge that as part of the skillset required to be good at tank. It's not better or worse, it's just different. Supports have to be aware of the constantly changing frontline, and understand how to find their perfect range with respect to contributing to the frontline while not dying to it, as well as staying alive in the face of divers or widows, which altogether I think isn't as easy as you make it out to be for most skill levels.
I can go further w/ more specific examples and rebuttals, but I'll sit w/ this for now.
a grav combo'd with a barrage that grabbed 4 people was countered by an ikea disc from bap that was a regular ability with a 25 second cooldown. there was no outplay there and bap was sitting in the safest position. it wasn't even ult for ult trade in a creative way it was basic ability thrown at the ground for 2 ults. that's the whole point is that bap had to take 0 risk or skill in that play other than hitting E.
tanks can hold space and that's what they're good at but holding space alone isn't fun. tanks used to be able to secure kills in overwatch 1 while being squishier and it was more fun. tanks in overwatch 2 weren't buffed to do anything but take space which means getting shot, cc'd, booped, and that just isn't fun. buffing tanks to just be stat monsters was never the solution.
you seem like a new player to overwatch vs one that has been around awhile. so you're coming at this maybe only from a limited perspective. i also come from fighting games as well. i'm older so there's not many games i haven't been a part of. the problem is just saying that playing tank is just "different" isn't an excuse to justify how not fun it is right now for many and how people can still play but have valid criticisms that deserve to be addressed. saying that is just dismissive of what the community is and has been saying. tank isn't just different it lacks the same reward and dynamic choice and control that other roles have.
since you're new i'm taking this all with a grain of salt cause i'm usually sitting in the 1.5% of the player base on all roles consistently so i'm not talking out of my ass here. support is undoubtedly the easiest role to play and rank up on. i understand how the game is played extremely well from every perspective and many heroes.
@@arinrobinson3898 Yeah grav was countered. Yeah Barrage was countered. Why wasn't lamp forced beforehand? You can complain about whether or not it deserves to exist, but the counterplay is clear, and the fact it wasn't wasted before the actual push means they were outplayed. If the ease of use in pressing e is as braindead as you make it out to be, the fact that it wasn't tracked is even more pathetic. This is the basics of resource management. Even moreso, in like 8-9/10 circumstances, the barrage could have been placed to destroy lamp, the grav would prevent lamp being safe around a corner by having the team in open space and dedicate to a push before it was thrown. That's also incredibly simple counterplay.
I find making and hold space to be entertaining, I find the mindgame to be entertaining. Tank isn't meant for the same crowd as it was in ow1, in my opinion. You can compare it to a different game, but you all this comes down to is, "this isn't what I expected, I wanted something else". It's fine if you preferred that, but you have to take this at it's face.
I will admit that I'm new. However, notice how you're presupposing that tank isn't fun here? "the problem is just saying that playing tank is just "different" isn't an excuse to justify how not fun it is right now for many and how people can still play but have valid criticisms that deserve to be addressed." Since we're talking, tell me, directly, what you find to be lacking in terms of reward, dynamic choice, and control.
Here's the thing, I don't even deny you that support is easier. I just deny the degree. I don't think that it's so much easier, or that tanks are unfun by comparison.
I think the problem is w/ your framework. You keep referring to skill versus reward, which is important, but when you start to view everything through this mentality, you just end up in a self-destructive hellhole (It's a common problem with "theory of everything" solutions). You understand the game well, but you understand it from one perspective. Try understanding the game as counterplay for a while, and see how many options, not just as a manifestation of utility, but a manifestation of tactics. That's what's kept me in the saddle of enjoying competition. I think you've burned yourself out.
@@tumultoustortellini you're new, you're lower rank, you play 1 role sometimes 2, and you're explaining how the game works to me. ok...
@@arinrobinson3898 Ethos isn't the only part of an argument. If you've been around, you should be able to explain to me what's right and wrong. Otherwise, why should I just blindly belive you?
@@tumultoustortellini Stop arguing if you’re new, that’s straight up stupid trying to deny arguments from a more experienced player. I remember Overwatch 1.
What countered Grav? Zen Ult. What countered a Nanoed Blade? Lucio Ult. What countered Death Blossom? Situational Awareness.
Now it’s: Grav? Suzu Immortality Field. Nano Blade? Suzu Immortality Field. Death Blossom, but I have no idea where Reaper is? Suzu Immortality Field.
Like these abilities are so braindead and way too good to be in Overwatch.
Unstructured rant. Only could sit trough half of that. You just cycle your idea over and over, and the video honestly does not need to be this long.
Speaking of substance, you sound like a 100% biased tank, which you probably are, I will not bother to check. Somehow you guys think that if you have to time your abilities and ultimates properly, then it’s high risk high reward situation, yet supports don’t require the same skills what so ever. As a flex player, I see where you coming from, and I can agree that you’ve highlighted some of the problems the game has right now (like, tank gets too much focus and not as fun to play), I just don’t find your reasoning particularly correct
I play all 3 roles, M4 post season 9 and gm before that. So you're very wrong.
As someone who plays league of legend and only dabbles in overwatch as support.
Aren't you literally just stating how the holy trinity from MMOs work? Like you highlight kiriko and bap playing support is purely reactionary gameplay. There is no "proactive suzu" and being proactive with lamp is just stupid.
Maybe if supports outside of ana sleep dart and brig shield bash, could provide Shields/Crowd control like they do in LoL. Id love to make something like Suzu have offensive use, like slowing enemies so i could do something with it besides "hold for the Tanks big CC option"... my playmaking options as suport is often "negate what the other person did"
Honestly, the game needs (and i know this is controversial) More CCs that arent just tied to ultimates. Mei lost her freeze and McCree his stun, but imagine if i had to decide suzu that CC'd ally but i risk not having it up for a rein pin or shatter. Currently, there isn't enough of a reason to use it aside from holding it to deny big ultimates.
Maybe heros dont have enough moves like LoL champions Everyone has 4 and thus more tools to play make with thats not "all my value comes from hitting my Ult" unless you're like Malphite.
Support purely reactionary? So what about "ramping"? Certain healers (in world of warcraft) need to set up their heals with barriers and or heal over time effects. Then, after that, press other buttons that make it so they heal more potently. This is to set up and be PROACTIVE for massive waves of damage that would probably kill at least half of the raid. Proactivity is possible in the support/healer role. The game just needs to have the core mechanics (no instant press immortality abilities) to allow for that type of play to occur.
@amilcarcampbell2405 meant only in OW supports are reactionary, theres pleanty of "offensive proactive" supports in league of legends so I get what ur asking for, prepping for scripted damage in an MMO is different but they removed all those, OW use to to have armor packs and sym could throw down overshield packs. The only proactive healing feels like Juno ult or Tree but those are Ults.
Also you said press other buttons, that's kinda my point that heros need more moves. If I'm kiriko, healing papers/flash step/suzu are all defensive reactionary moves, my only proactive option is throw kunai :/
I'd love a support that has a zarya bubble so I can be like "I'm shielding you go in" or a slow zone like old sojourn energy sphere "i slowed them, rein hit the shatter"
"The game needs more CC" is one of the worst takes you could possibly have
Maybe in league cc isn’t too bad, but in overwatch cc is horrible
genji is high risk way to high reward. im a genji main and playing normally is fun until you play reverse goats and every healer heals you. then you become OP and the game gets stale.
i was hearing you out at first but tanks are supposed to work with their team for their high risk low reward playstyle to work.
In all the clips you showed only one of them was working with their team.
if the only way tank can feel satisfying is that they need their team there to secure any kills and not through any meaningful way to outplay their opponents and secure kills on their own the role will be miserable to play because you cannot control what your teammates do and worse because tank is the front line they frequently do not have the luxury of being able to constantly turn around and see what they're team is doing. if you expect tanks to only work as long as their team synnergizes with them but the same isn't true for dps or support then of course tank will not be enjoyable to play.
they need to nerf all supports with less healing when THEY take damage. trust me it will work.
This is such an insincere way to say that you don’t like certain supports under the guise of discussing game design. Kiri and Weaver are some of the worst performing supports in the game. Especially weaver, he’s just one of the worst characters in the game in general. W/L stats are not comparable to in game stats, of course if a character is underperforming in every rank it reflects the character. You can feel that some characters don’t require as much skill as others, or feel like some abilities are unfair, but that doesn’t mean you can disregard the actual statistics.
Despite specifying that not every role fits into the risk/reward graph you set out, basing your argument on such a simplified version of the game makes your arguments null. Yes, tanks are playing in the front, but also have the biggest HP pools and will therefore benefit the most from their supports. Supports are in the back, but that also leaves them susceptible to dives and their lower HP pools means they can be fragile. That’s not even acknowledging the fact that with so many varied heroes with different skill floors and ceilings, simplifying the roles like this is pointless.
they are the worst performing cause they are the worst designed.
i'm not gonna watch this video but I will respond to the thumbnail. Lifeweaver is low risk low reward, JQ is high risk high reward... so you kinda refuted your own point with your thumbnail example.
omg. this is sooooo tired.
just stop playing tank.
i play all three roles. tank is fine. tank mains are the whiniest by far.
your 'graph' is just a pictorial representation of your bias. it's arbitrary.
tank is fine. git gud.
I'm M4 on all roles. you didn't have to listen. if you don't like it stop looking up videos on it. just a weird comment to make.
Tanks are whiny cuz our role has been dogshit since 5v5
ofc tanks are whiny they *lead* the team
You realise if everyone did this the game would stop functioning, right? Because nearly every competent tank player hates tank for this reason.
It's a tired argument because there's NOTHING BEING DONE TO THE PAIN POINTS. Nobody is asking for tank to be buffed, there's just too much shit that hasn't been nerfed/adjusted at all.
i'd say most of this is due to ease of access of healing