New Rifles for Old Ammo: The Royal Navy's Unique SMLE MkI**
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- Опубліковано 20 жов 2024
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When the SMLE was adopted by the British, it was to be the new universal rifle for all branches of service, including the Royal Navy. This suited the Navy just fine; they like the features of the new design. However, the Army quickly moved to update their rifles for the new MkVII Spitzer ammunition, and this was an issue. The Navy still had substantial stockpiles of the older round-nose MkVI cartridge, and did not go through it nearly as quickly as the Army. The Navy did not want to simply throw out their ammunition, but the differences in trajectory between the two types of ammunition was substantial. So the Navy opted to adopt its own unique rifle variation, the MkI**. This in effect was the new Army pattern rifle, but with the rear sight still calibrated for the trajectory of MkVI ammunition.
This pattern was first adopted in 1908, using rifles with the then-standard split charger guide. When the fixed charger bridge was adopted, the Navy (which still had plenty of MkVI ammunition) chose to update its MkI** rifles to fixed charger bridges, without making any change to their designation. Once they finally ran out of the older ammunition during World War One, the rifles were updated once again to what was then the standard MkI*** pattern. As a result, intact MkI** rifles - especially ones with the split charger guide - are extremely rare to find today. Many thanks to the owner of these two specimens for giving me access to share them with you!
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"We want these but we don't want those"
Pretty much sums up military firearm requests
Sums up the Royal Navy :-) We have Marines to get thier boots dirty.
The Royal Navy had no intention to change from .303 to 7.62Nato. However as my Gunnery Instructor at HMS Ganges said to us in 1972. Them at Admirallity (How he pronounced it) did'nt allow for the likes of me sending a thousand rounds a week up range for our own use.
As only an Instructor can say it.
I reckon the cost of the ammo came out of the gunnery instructor's pocket! ££££
Your work on these Enfield rifles is so helpful to me. A while back I purchased a dozen Enfield barreled receivers real cheap. I've been reassembling them into complete rifles. The many design changes are really challenging to duplicate, usually I use what I can find just to be functional. Your info has helped me better understand what i have.
My MKI** was scrubbed and redated 1912 by Enfield. It has MKI's right charger hump removed from the receiver, and the layer charger bridge installed. It was FTR in 1919 at Ishapore, where assumedly it had its rear sight revamped utilizing an early MKIII adjustable rear sight. Presently it is a wire wrapped grenade launching rifle that displays traces of OD paint, the sights adjustment was eliminated, and it features a standard MKIII nose cap. The stock is EY marked.
you can tell the difference between tyros and pros in any sophisticated enterprise. you, ian, are not just a hobbyist. rather, you are a true firearms historian. i salute you. i admire you. i support you. and-------- thanks.
Love these in-depth insights!
Assuming you’re a patron so get access early?
@@zero_meercat8624 Not necessarily. Just be curious and attentive. ;)
@@Statusinator Yeah, YT is telling me this turned up today, not a week ago. My curious attention has yet to give me an operable blue police box.
For rifles that are over a century old... those two are in good nick (Condition)... especially being Lee Enfields (One of the most neglected rifles). I did notice the few chips on the 3 star.
You put a Lee Enfield video up on this channel... my world stops and i be coming :D
A friend bought what looked like a beat up P O S Enfield a while back. He took 2 days to clean the bore and action and another 3 days to re finish the stocks. When finished he loaded up with some .303 head stamped 1915 and at various distances up to 200 yds blasted a number of water filled plastic gallon milk jugs. Up the SMLE!
@@borderlinelen4687 SMLE No.4 is my favourite rifle. I don't have a massive history of firearms... but I have shot and stripped, Every form of the SA80 platform including the LSM variants, A BREN, Browning HP, M16A1, K98, a Mosin Nagant, SMLE No.3, SMLE No.4 In .22LR and .303... all felt good, all performed good (except the SA80, the First variant and even the Single Shot L98 Cadet trainer all Jamed constantly)... but out of those... only one felt natural and felt like years of work went into it... the No.4.
Oh and I have solo load and charge fired a 105 artillery peice... but I can't tell you what exactly it was other than bone shaking... and extremely satisfying to load and eject the huge case lol I just remember that and hyper aware of the possibility of losing my hand or fingers if not loaded and fired correctly lol... damn I am getting old. I live in the UK, so chances are I will never see any of these things again... but hey... I will never forget.
@@babalonkie I admire your experiences with such classic Brit weapons. I thank you for sharing! Bless your heart, brother!
Wow! Somebody dug around to find all these Short Enfields. A hard core collector for sure.
Royal Navy: we want a special rifle for a special ammo that we are never going to use. In fact we only need these guns for a future video of Gun Jesus.
Basically yes. We have the Royal Marines to get dirty, we have very little use for small arms,and better things to spend money on.
To be fair, Ian does say that they eventually ran out of the old ammo, so they must have used them a bit at least. And given the purposes the RN had for a bolt-action rifle, the large stockpile of old ammo, and the priority for the newer ammo to go to the trenches, it seems pretty reasonable (sensible, even) to make the relatively simple request to have a rear sight graduated for the old ammo.
The Royal Navy Battalions (basically ships’ crews retrained as infantry, and brigade alongside Royal Marines) served with distinction on the Western Front.
@@keithorbell8946 of course yes but I don't think, due to logistic problems, they were using different type of weapons and ammo than the Army.
@@Solidboat123 They didn't want to change to 7.62 SLR.
God I love Enfields, such a nice and beautiful looking rifle.
two-star ? so i take it theres no complimentary continental breakfast with this rifle
You have a rifle. Get your own breakfast!
"Two-Star Version"
Wonder if someone ever rolled a Five-Star Version.
some special forces guy prolly has sum weird modified de lisle somewhere
For a 5 star version the rifle first has to be tasted by a Michelin inspector.
premium gacha
Did they have Google 'ratings' back.
For those of you who don't know Royal Navy sailors are referred to s ratings.
I am almost sure there was Mark V***** tank
The Lee series has been awesome Ian!
This is getting out of hand there are two of them now!
really appreciate that you always add subtitles
I'd love to own an old lee Enfield one day. Even in the uk I think you can own one. Such a piece of history
If you get a hunting license I believe you can, or an antique one. Never seen anyone with one stalking though haha
You can own and shoot them in the UK. You just have to be prepared to do allot of paperwork.
You will need to apply for a firearms licence,see the government web site for full info, buy and install an approved gun safe. It's not as difficult or daunting as people make out but it does tend to take a good old while to get the process completed.
@@rudymatheson1415 hunting licence ?
It can be owned on an FAC but the process can take a while. If its for target shooting you'll need to be a full member of a club which can take some time, and you'll then need a safe installed and to apply for your FAC with you local Police. FYI most bolt actions can be held on this license (along with lever guns, pump actions, semi-auto .22lrs)
As the British Royal Navy had divisions of Royal Marines fighting in France during WW1 it would be interesting to know if they carried on with the Mk1** or changed to the Mk3 as used by the British Army, as this would make supplying ammunition easier.
Army chap: "Oy! Lobster! Why do you keep missing?"
Royal Marine: "It's not my fault! You lot keep giving me the wrong bullets."
Not just the Marines. The Royal Naval Division ie The 63rd RN Division contained both Marines and excess Navy personnel. The wore British Army style uniforms, retaining their naval rank and pay. .
@@binaway Thanks binaway. I remembered about the marines but I was not sure about the navy personal as well.
They also mounted some of their big naval battleship/battlecruiser 12, 13.5 and 14 inch guns as railguns as well. No problems with the ammo there though. The two 14 inch guns, built for the army in 1918, were called "Boche Buster" and "Scene Shifter."
Great to know. I thought the RN used the SMLE MK1** was due to the fact they were more effective at fighting Cannibals and not due to surpluses of MK6 Ammo . Thank you for clearing that up 😉.
It's commonwealth week and I am here for it!
Thank you , Ian .
So Navy bought enough Mark 6 ammo to sink a battleship.
in Australia in the 1960's I was still buying Mark6 ammo, but it was real old then! had a silver looking bullet.
Yep to go right along with all the Puckle Guns and the Chambers Flintlock "Roman Candle" gun 😂
jake bronger a heavy round nose around 215 grains, correct me if I'm wrong anyone, cupronickel jacket that gave it the distinctive silver look. The Mk.7 was a 174 grain spritzer, very pointed and flat base with a heavier back end so when it hit the momentum of the rear mass would pass the front and create the tumble that was the true wounding effect. The old heat round nose was long and fairly even mass front to back so it drilled through mostly in a straight line making much less of a wound. I took a Mk.7 bullet pulled from a 1943 case and dissected it with a very small tubing cutter and was surprised to find the sharp nose filled with compressed paper! Then I learned why and it was for the tumbling I mentioned earlier.
The logic of the Senior Service! They were most likely only using their rifles for guard duty, minute of battleship deck fire and the occasional deserter/mutineer. Plus the slower round nose bullets were probably more effective on mermaids and didn't break up on impact with water.
Ooh, I love intermediate stuff, that's so neat!
Nothing like weird, transitional changes.
Ian, what in your opinion is the most "complete" SMLE?
No.1 Mk V
ua-cam.com/video/cKL1KIzk_lo/v-deo.html
One that doesn't work
implying Ian sifts through youtube comments lol
the answer is no4 mk1 though. n05 would win if it didn't have the wandering zero issue.
His Smelly socks?
Again a fascinating video. Many thanks Ian!
My BIL bought an old Lee Enfield at least 35 years ago that he's been deer hunting with ever since. Next I visit his house I'm gonna take a close look at it to see what model it is.
Love the history on here .
I'm curious as to which round would be better for setting off mines or other uniquely Navy uses?
Wow looks like you're about to hit 2 million subs congrats Ian.
A weapon to shoot clay pigeons from the deck of The Grey Funnel Line's latest big grey war canoe...
Wait. Is the grey funnel line warships of the Navy? That explains the song...
@@tamlandipper29 Lol yep.
Thanks for the vid sir.👍🏼👍🏼
This is probably an incredibly boring request, but with you covering all these WW1 bolt action rifles, i would like to see a video on how to identify WW1 bolt actions from the side.
id like to see a mega episode, a run-down of all lee enfields, from the first prototype all the way to the L42a1
If I only knew back in the day ! My local gun shop had SKS, 303 SMLE's for under a Hundo each.. That was 35 years ago..
Oof. A half decent SKS is $500 now
Interesting as always. Lee Enfield are so confusing. I have a beautiful #4 Mk1 or maybe Mk1*, I forget.
That should be around 1939 date.
Man that stock is old, beaten and beautiful! I've got an M1 from CMP you can see its used god knows how many coats of lindseed oil its seen, but never got a new stock too much history in the dings and gouges!
Great video! Now I need to see a ***
So interesting, I got a No1 ** years ago at auction. However mine is a little different in that it was converted to .22rf in 1940.
When I was on TS Arethusa in the 60's we were taught to shoot using these. (20 rounds per year! Don't waste money.) Much more time doing drill with the f**kers though.
thank you
In Australia MkVI ammunition (nickel plated projectile) was still around in the 1960's as surplus. I remember being told at the NSW Police Academy to keep an eye out for it as it was the best round for taking out feral bulls in the opinion of some older instructors.
Yes, at short ranges a round nose bullet works very well indeed!
Spitzer bullets make estimating the range a lot less critical at long range, though.
1.99 million subscribers, soo close to 2 mill.
That old 215 grain loading is still a good one for game hunting. The Navy was not so stupid.
I wish a lot of the Australian made Lee Enfield smel were here in Australia and not over in America
SMLE not SMEL
@@Gussyboy06 it’s obviously a typo. You must be fun at parties. 🙄
@@bh8671 I know it was a typo I was just helping him
If they were Australian government would just destory them rather than recognize the historical value
Change your government.
Peacetime military requirements are so quaintly detailed. Comes wartime it just becomes "more guns, now!"
To answer your hope. Yes I did enjoy it.
Good stuff, as always. Interacting to increase the algorithm’s chance to recommend this content
Could you use the Spitzer bullets in the MK1**, but just "compensate" with elevation..? Or would using those bullets damage the gun?
Great video!
" ... You know, it’s just that both those rifles look exactly the same to me. You know, I’m still learning about all this stuff and, uh… "
I'm curious. At the 2 minute mark you can see a small set of graduations on the side of the newer version of the sight on the left of the screen. It looks like it's designed for altering the height of the sight notch. Wouldn't that ruin the sight's range adjustment? Or is it so that the sight can compensate for different powers of ammunition?
That's probably for zeroing the rifle.
The more I think I know all about Lee Enfields,the less I know.
Maybe its because I'm a gun weapon normy but dang I love Ian's quality vids to the point I expect to be pleased enough to hit the like button.
Thanks Ian
Mk 6, 2 star, second version, Navy...huh? So it’s Sega video game adapted from a movie of an arcade game, but for the SNES.
Getting into WWI and WWII gun collecting and trying to figure out British markings 🤯🤯🤯🤯
Its always amazed me that armies and navies disagree on small arms so much. No matter the country.
Politics...and different needs.
@@Stevarooni Fair but still I have to say having served, the logic behind the disagreements is silly. It would be nice if all branches of any military could decide and agree for all on at least one thing lol.
Like the m16 with the Air Force and Army back in the 60’s?
How are they going to waste all their free money if they standardize everything?
@@Aliyah_666 you've served and you question weird ways that the military digs into niche equipment? 😆
I have a lee enfield made in 1910 in ishapore that has a mk I ** crossed out then a mk II crossed out then an intact mk III. Unfortunately it was butchered to be sporterized. It’s ugly as sin but accurate as hell. From what I was told it was last used in the signal corp in the 60’s before being surplused.
Have you ever considered doing a collaborative video with British Muzzleloaders?
Hello Ian, can you please explain the purpose of the 'cut off', thanks🙂
The SMLE series is becoming like the bergman series....and im okay with that.
Truely it was a forgotten weapon.
Would the Royal Marines have been using these in the trenches or are these only for ship based caches?
Gosh they sure spent a lot of time and effort on the iron sights.... do they actually make a difference when aiming at 500 yards?
I know we are an eccentric country in a lot of ways, but the more of these videos I watch the more baffling the whole SMLE family becomes. It's bonkers.
Ian is the true star
*Me about to Comment*
Me seeing a 6 days ago comment : *Confused Screaming*
Certain levels on Patreon get to see the videos as soon as they are uploaded :)
KREEEGAAAH! (I just made that up)
Time travel...
Were the two stars only issued to RN Sailors, or did Royal Marines get them too?
Wonder if it was a deliberate decision to make the Navy use up all the surplus Mk 6 ammo as they are not generally frontline rifles
Possibly. Also depends on whether the Army and Navy were separately funded then. (They were completely separate in the US until after WW2, the .50bmg was the first joint small arms program, why it's formally the A/N M2. A/N for Army/Navy.)
good. thx
could you do a video on the L85A3 rifle? its been out a year or two and too few people know about it or the changes it implements to the A2
@@ca9968 i do get your point, but the L85 has been a perfectly fine rifle since H&K fixed it. Don’t forget the M16 had the same problems as the L85A1 as it was first issued in vietnam, yet today it is one of the best rifles in the world.
I will admit i have a strong british bias, and I do accept that the L85 was an utter piece of rubbish when it first came out, but I feel that generally the modern A2 and A3 models are wrongly thought of as bad, even though they have been fixed
edit: take this video for example, there are so many videos on different SMLE’s, yet the differences between them are very negligible, so saying that the A3 isn’t much different than the A2 is irrelevant and perhaps ironic
@@atinofspam3433 but the difference between the M16 and the L85 is that the M16 Unreliability is caused mainly by the Ammunition instead of the Design
@@youraveragereloader649 and that all the major issues of the M16 had been worked out in the private development process long before the U.S. Army even looked at it. The L85 didn't have that luxury, trials and development that should have been completed before adoption got dragged out into its early service life, which the MOD was fully aware of at the time, but their hands were tied by government . The A2 was the result of the ongoing process of in-service evaluation, retesting and revaluation in the mid 1990s, not simply getting H&K to "fix" it, and that often seems to be forgotten when people slag it off. But that's what happens when you elect a Tory government, they create the mess and someone else has to carry the mop and bucket.
Maybe when Ian can travel internationally again. I don't think anyone in the US has an L85A3 for him to video.
@@jonprince3237 Ah yes, the cunning traditional Labour strategy of avoiding manufacturing messes by having all the workers on permanent strike action.
Interesting! Did the Brits not do much training with live fire? It would seem more logical to reserve the Mk 6 ammo for training purposes and the Mk 7 for combat use...just curious if there was a reason for such a seemingly strange decision.
You want to use the rifle you trained with when you fight. Every rifle shoots a little bit differently.
Hi Ian, What is a good book that you can recommend on the SMLE's I live in South Africa and come across a lot of them with "funny" modifications. I want to be able to find out if it"original" or a mismatched rifle with mixed parts. Thank you for all your work! Big big fan!!!
Do you? interesting, I always hear the Boers had their firearms taken away but from time to time I hear anecdotes such as this that make me believe otherwise
Why did the Royal Navy want to stay with the mark 6 ammunition? Was it just because they had a large stockpile of it that they wanted to use up before (assuming they didn't feel the benefit was enough to scrap the ammo) or was there something about the performance of the mark 6 that they thought was more suitable for naval use? Can't really think of anything that would be beneficial about that in a naval context...
I suspect it's simply because they had warehouses full of the stuff, and calculated they had enough of a reserve to justify a new rifle using it. If peace had lasted they would've had enough for many years.
On behalf of all Brits I would like to apologise for our weapon nomenclature system - thank the Gods we have Gun Jesus here to explain it to us (and everyone else)
Lee Enfields are great, I love 'em, but how confusing can we make things?!?!
Don’t apologise on our behalf, and who on earth refers to oneself as a ‘Brit’, I very much doubt you are English, British or anything of the sort. Therefore masquerading as one of us is rather petulant and can be immediately disregarded
the eponymous hero of C.S. Forester's "Brown on Resolution" might have been using one of those to harass the Huns.
The book seems to suggest it was a stolen Mauser.
@@simonholley4110 Thanks. That's too bad. It's been a long time since I read the book.
The SMLE really was ahead of its time, until machine guns came onto the battlefield.
Lovin it ian
I wonder if a Guns of the Coast Guard, would put Ian over 2 million?
Is it really called spitzer bullet or is it just derived from the Mauser 8mm IS meaning "infantry pointy" if it is the latter, "spitzer" would just mean "pointy one".
The German nomenclature was used a lot early on to distinguish pointed from round-nosed projectiles. In fact, some bullet manufacturers still refer to their pointed bullets as "spitzers" (I know Hornady does, and I'm pretty sure Sierra does too).
@@sniperfreak223 really? I've seen german family names translated to their english version in english-speaking news, but the shape description of a pointy bullet is in english-speaking use untranslated. That's funny.
@@KarlKarpfen English is weird like that
@@KarlKarpfen I've seen some people (mostly Americans) refer to them as spearpoint or speartip bullets. But spitzer works fine. Everyone knows what it means.
Does the arc on the sight describe a miniature version of the bullet trajectory?
Sorta.
Remember that the sights are trying to get your line of sight to where the bullet is landing.
It's really hard to describe without pictures or a data table.
@Michael Bishop I was thinking someting similar, and as the 'sight arc' is different for the 'same' rifle too, depending on different types of ammunition, ie. MkVI and Mk VII there must be a correlation.
Never imagined a bullet would rise that much when you have a bead on a target, which is to all intent, on a straight line when looking through the sights.
Interesting.
This may be a silly question but is the "charger clip bridge" integrated as one piece with the receiver or is it an add on piece? I have not been able to figure that out by just looking at the videos or pictures. Thanks and this was a great video
It's a separate piece riveted to the receiver. Sometimes you can see the rivets taking the finish differently
I'm not a shooter, just a guy who likes reading about/watching Ian's videos on, firearms. How would that shoot, using obsolescent low-velocity ammo in a rifle with high-velocity sites
You'd be okay within about 50 yards. From 50 to 300 yards, the old round would shoot higher. Beyond the zero range (300 yards, IIRC), the old round would hit lower. Much much lower at extended ranges.
Gun-Jesus talking about the God of British rifles!! Five minutes of Bliss.
In a lot of movies/tv and videogames, it's common for guns to either have numerical cartridge counters on them, or for the last few rounds to somehow make a different sound. Has this ever been seriously attempted? Metal Gear Solid had the somewhat more straightforward version of this with the last few rounds of the FAMAS's magazine always being tracers, do you know if this was an actual practice?
Given that the magazine capacity on these things is so low and the mechanism is manual, it's easier to keep track of your ammo. Some fighter pilots would put tracer in the last fifty rounds of the belt so they knew when they were about to run out and could disengage and head home.
The only thing I am aware of is loading tracers in the last few rounds of a magazine, and that's an individual choice.
One friend of mine loads his pistol magazines with a tracer second to last, when you see the tracer it's time to drop the magazine and reload.
I first read about that in a Clancy book, pretty sure it was Clear and Present Danger. The rifles had the last 3 rounds tracers, but the SAWs had the usual 1 in 5 loading for belts.
If I have a mark1, star, two star, and three star will I summon St George for a wish.
So the army team got the Star and 3-star variations. I wonder if they ever made a 4-star for any team...
Fun stuff.
How many stars do you have?
Yesterday a Smelly, today a Shittle.
Ian have you ever done a talk on the Martini Henry 310Cadet....
He’s done the IC1, others have done the Cadet
Others ?who? .....
It basically sounds like they made a new rifle.Just so they could use up the old ammo.
Seems to me it would have been more logical to send the MK VI ammo back to the factory and remanufacture it as MK VII. But who am I to question the Royal Navy?
So much SMLE lately....you have now overtaken Buddha in terms of enlightenment
Is the usage by the navy generally shorter range than the army? Eg. Guard duty etc.
I think its partly that they use them a lot less so they have a big stockpile of the old ammo to use and they dont want to just throw it out.
@@jakraziel sounds reasonable
The Royal Navy has a marked aversion to getting it's boots dirty. That's why we have the Royal Marines, uncouth yobbos. The RN issues rifles to keep them under control when they have been out on a Saturday night:-) Seriously though, what use is a rifle against a ship? The RN still taught Cutlass drill , though as secondary in the 1970's. A firearm in the steel box of a ship has very limited use. Some branches,mainly signallers and medics who do go ashore with Marines are given intensive small arms training, the rest get just basic training , even shore establishments normally have armed MOD Police (MODPlod) on the gate.
At the time when SMLE Mark III** were around, the Royal Navy had a history of landing "brigades" in odd places and, in the Great War, even fielded a division. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/63rd_(Royal_Naval)_Division#Royal_Naval_Division
Didn't a Army/Navy ammo mix up come back and bite them in the ass during Gallipoli?
I have seen A rifle purporting to be A #1 Mk1** with an aperture rear sight and no I do not mean the #1 Mk.5
Best British Rifle In WW1
WTF? A RN small arms mod that makes sense? I guess it can happen once.
Is Ian still being held hostage at RIA?
Hi Ian, have have really been enjoying this series about the SMLE and recently sent you a message via Instagram you might like. 🇬🇧
Seems that the Navy it's weird everywhere.
It’s the water. Does strange things.
Weird as in save money and use up the ammo they’ve procured ?!
Costs a fortune to build and maintain ships.
Small arms come way, way down the priority list, and using up the existing bajillion rounds of ammo is nominally worth the specific rifle build. Plus, the change to Mk7 ammo is as simple as a new rear sight at that point.
It means it was used by Royal Marines as well?
No , the Royal Marines are a seperate service.
@@51WCDodge, the RM usually got their supplies from the RN, so I am not so sure they would not have used the navy's rifles.
@@abchaplin As I've been reminded yes before 1910, after they went thier own way.