I am pretty sure I know why the Honda makes that 3 cylinder rattle off throttle: its in 2 parts 1- on the overrun and 2. on part throttle 1. Its deactivating 3 or more cylinders and not just cutting of fuel either but possibly doing something tricky with the valves to reduce pumping loss 2. As the driver gets on the throttle the engine appears to stay on 3 or so cylinders and then shifts to 4 or more over the next few seconds. This way the savage dollop of torque is eased in leading to better traction. Did anyone say Traction control?
Rob Ducker My idea too, and it is what Renault did with their N.A.-V8's. The fact that their exhaust is very short and the moment of inertia of their turbo concept is lower than F.I. Mercedes, makes the exhaust sound hard.
Alonso's lack of presence in the front has definitely affected my enjoyment with this season, and I'm saying this as a Lewis fan. Jenson Button would be most welcome as well.
I have always wondered why the Honda sounds so poor off throttle. I asked the BBC pundits and they couldn't answer. To me sounds a lot like the blow diffuser era of cars. Peter Windsor could you a scar a please discuss this next time????
What do you guys mean by axial compressor? Do you have any photos of how this is used in any vehicle? I would like to understand this turbocharger. Thanks a lot peterwindsor and Craig Scarborough
I'm glad Honda decided to come back, they belong on the grid. It's good for the other manufacturers as well - competition breeds excellence. It is a pity though that variable valve technology isn't permitted, Honda could definitely use it's experience there - especially in terms of the tradeoff in packaging and such.
Heh, there is that. I dunno, I just think it's a pity that engine technology such as this is banned - F1 should be the technological pinnacle of motorsport. Of course, I'm aware of cost restrictions and such but VTEC for example is not exactly new and unproven! :P
One thing I simply don't understand is the reason they put the Compressor housing inside the V. Its already hot in there and compressor efficiency will decrease. It will need more intercooling as the compressed air is already hotter due to the compressor sitting inside the V. Am I missing something?
***** This temperature disadvantage is partly true, but easily fixed by using heatshielding, and the gain is more important: They gain space to place the gearbox closer, keep the centre of gravity where they want, and reduce the lag due to a short distance between compressor and intake... The Ferrari solution seems even better in that area, but they've had a kink in their exhaust side :p
With this only being the second year of this current Turbo era, and the last having lasted for 11 years, there seems to be plenty of time to develop this engine so it will be the top engine package in 2016. But will this also mean a new colour scheme for the McLaren since Honda's colours are Red and White and McLaren's are Orange, so maybe a White and Orange colour scheme. Since Silver is a German /Mercedes colour and with Mercedes no longer involved with McLaren, a new colour scheme could be in the works.
darkfalken42 Exactly. If something should not be mentioned, than it should not be mentioned. Its like giving someone a wrapped birthday present which has nothing inside it.
Onkar Mohite The two pipes you see next to the intake scoop on the left hand side will come out to the intercooler I would imagine, the "top" one cold and the lower one hot
Steve Langdon yes i think the same, the top going into the plenum and to the engine. also the hot one seems to be gold platted as from the images from race car engineering.
they've compromised horsepower and center of gravity for packaging. A bit silly they have made the same mistake as Ferrari did last year when they had the benefit of hindsight.
My question is: Is this all worth it??? I heard a rumor that the regulations are apparently going to change once again in 2017, engine based from what I know. I assume a Hybrid Power-Unit would still indeed be used, whether it's a turbo or how many cylinders is still debatable... Also, another rumor is that Audi and VW are looking to join F1, but because of the incredible amount of funding needed to compete, they won't join until Bernie leaves or a new regulation is decided. The current price of F1 is destroying it's competitiveness (in my opinion). I know this is all speculation but, this does provide excellent excitement and curiosity to the sport. So, back to my first question, is it worth Honda going through all this and only having one year to fight again (2016) if the above rumor(s) are true?? Anyway, that's my 5 cents worth... :)
SuperItalia494 They probably just raise the fuelflowlimit and the amount of fuel they are aloud to carry around a bit. They want to reach 1000hp to calm down some fans with this number and they can also beef up the sound a bit this way.
I actually wouldn't mind that at all :) Do you think aero regulations will change as well?? Along with engine capacity and turbo boost?? I personally wouldn't mind seeing the driver push to the limit instead of all this fuel/tire saving crap (In my opinion). It's the pinnacle of Motorsports for Pete's sake!!! they get paid enough, so let us see what these driver are capable of... Am I wrong for think this??
I don't think they will change the aero-rules more than usual. The only thing i can imagine at the moment would be to set a limit to the frontwing complexity. The Merc Frontwing for instance has 6 or 7 elements/flaps on either side. It runs a bit out of hand in my opinion. I mean they look like a piece of art but it is a bit overkill i think. The engine capacity will stay the same, that's pretty sure. In terms of boost well, depends how they design the new rules. There is no boost limit in the rules directly but they limited because of the fuel flow limit. The fuelsaving isn't a huge thing in my opinion.What bugs me more are the tyres. The temperature window they are really working in is to small and that's whats really limits the racing.
Yeah, I saw that new front wing Mercedes were running... Looks amazing but, Merc have a bid budget so that's why we are probably seeing these incredible designs. So, this fuel-flow limit is really hindering the overall performance of the engine, from what I gather. Of course getting rid of this fuel-flow limit would not alter much due to the 100kg max of fuel now. I honestly would love to see the engines hitting that 15k rev limit, but it seems it doesn't exist... I completely agree with you, about the tire saving. I mean it does add a bit more "excitement" since re-fueling was banned and make some interesting strategies. Like Ferrari did in Malaysia. An idea I thought would be interesting to see would be just one set of slick tires per GP but, with more available during the weekend.
As said in the video, it's a shame that the teams and manufacturers are so secretive with the F1 technology. There should be a rule that requires some degree of disclosure after a couple of years.
I was thinking about some high-level disclosure after 3-5 years when it no longer has competitive value. But not every detail and not necessarily even the design principles, to avoid the road car problem.
tini engine? thats a stupid thing to do you will have overheating fast and lack of power, plus the fixes are so dificult to made....whait that already hapened XD
I detest hybrids (as interesting as the technology is). Energy recovery is okay and logical. But full on hybrids are nothing more then the major manufacturers are terrified of all-electric vehicles and that is why they are pushing hybrids so much. They are not pushing it to be 'green' - they are pushing them because they want to do everything they can from stopping people wanting all-electric cars because the latter means far fewer moving parts and require far less service - both things which are important to the manufacturers (the latter especially to the dealers as they make up a very large part of their profits). Any doubt of this, just look at the pathetic ranges of the EV's they do sell. Tesla has proven that long range EV cars are possible - but since the major manufacturers do not want EV's, they only sell ones with horrible ranges so that they will never take off. Plus, hybrids mean more moving parts, so more parts/service profits, a higher CAFE and probably a higher profit margin per vehicle sold. Hybrids in F1 are, imo, virtually nothing to do with making F1 'modern' and are ENTIRELY to do with F1 desperate for major manufacturers money so they agree to these ridiculous engines to get the manufacturers back. Dump these pathetic motors that sound HORRIBLE and are staggeringly expensive and just have one engine type that is built by one manufacturer (like Cosworth for example) and sell this (hopefully) 1,000 hp, non-hybrid engine to all the teams at a price that they all can easily afford.
McRocket Up to Mr Bernie Ecclestone I'm afraid... I do see your point and agree up to a point though. One engine, or the possibility of equal specifications/money of each team, would dramatically increase the overall competitiveness of the drivers and make a substantial difference to the atmosphere of the sport. I think of it as being GP2 on steroids lol. However, F1 has always been the pinnacle of Motorsport not only because of it's drivers competitiveness and glory but, also the engineering side of it (and of course lap time/speed) After all isn't that what F1 is all about? A set regulations that every constructor have to abide by, and through that find the perfect car and driver that can deliver the number one result? Just my opinion though mate... :)
McRocket Like Gates said, there's Formula E if you want a "green" sport. My issue with it is that pushing for cars to run on batteries isn't all that green, do you know how much toxic chemicals it takes to create a battery? Do you know how many gallons of air fuel it takes to ship every thing from one track to another? And those batteries will be charged up by coal and oil power plants, renewable energy is too inefficient to even bother with at the moment. So how about we get real and get rid of the green pretence?
Where did I say I wanted F1 to go more green? I didn't. I want F1 to abandon 'green' altogether and run (ideally) normally aspirated V8's that pump out over 1000 hp. I am well aware of Formula E and I follow it and I hope it takes off. But F1 is about speed, not fuel economy. Dump the ridiculous hybrids and go back to normally-aspirated gas ONLY motors.
***** Yes and that has nothing to do with what I said as I DO NOT want hybrids or 'green' F1 cars...I was referring to the major manufacturers...not F1. F1 would be all about spewed and NOTHING about fuel economy or 'being green'.
***** I agree with everything you typed - though I do like DRS and maybe (a big maybe) energy recovery system ('free' hp - why not?). I remember F1 got pretty processional for a while there way back when. But now it is not only silly with the hybrids, but ridiculously expensive. Do what Lauda wants - fat rear tires (so harder to drive) and 1000 hp. The fact that a 17 year old can come into F1 and do well means the cars are FAR too easy to drive.
Honda just can't cut it in the big boys's game. The Japanese manufacturers are not able to compete in a level playing field without having rules in their favour. My prediction is that Honda can't make it and McLaren will look elsewhere for engine or develop their own engine. Honda can't make it. Time will tell...
+Sam R As i understand, it was mclarens choice to make the engine a tiny package. Incredible stupid descition, to sacrifice reliability and power for aero. And they aren't allowed to redesign, not enough engine tokens. And the mclaren chassis is no more than average, as they have been the last years. Mega fail
The individual parts & components may be good themselves but as a complete package they are poor, it is a case of less then the sum of it's parts, it will be a couple of seasons before McHonda are challenging for a win let alone a championship, Renault will get there before Honda.
Well, look at how bad Ferrari were last year compared to now. I dont think you should underestimate Mclaren-Honda, things could turn pretty fast. Not this year maybe, but in 2016 I think they will be right up there. Honda is a gigantic corp. and Mclaren know what they're doing.
Rottensteam Until they have had enough, i don't know why Honda bothered getting back into F1 after they pulled out at the drop of a hat a few years back, if they had not have pulled out they would have won the title with Ross Brawn! I get that McLaren said nobody will win with a customer Mercedes engine, but they may as well built their own engine, furthermore they should have bought one of the teams that went bust & used them like red Bull use Torro Rosso & they could have had the Honda engine as well so they could get more data. They have gone from being second best team to worst team in a few months, Alonso will be out next year as he won't stay, i bet Button will leave as well.
Thanks Peter. I love these tech videos with Scarbs.
Always enjoy these technical illustrations. Cheers.
I am pretty sure I know why the Honda makes that 3 cylinder rattle off throttle: its in 2 parts 1- on the overrun and 2. on part throttle
1. Its deactivating 3 or more cylinders and not just cutting of fuel either but possibly doing something tricky with the valves to reduce pumping loss
2. As the driver gets on the throttle the engine appears to stay on 3 or so cylinders and then shifts to 4 or more over the next few seconds. This way the savage dollop of torque is eased in leading to better traction. Did anyone say Traction control?
Rob Ducker My idea too, and it is what Renault did with their N.A.-V8's. The fact that their exhaust is very short and the moment of inertia of their turbo concept is lower than F.I. Mercedes, makes the exhaust sound hard.
Yes! I've been waiting for this :)
Alonso's lack of presence in the front has definitely affected my enjoyment with this season, and I'm saying this as a Lewis fan. Jenson Button would be most welcome as well.
It sucks seeing him be a back marker every race!
PullTheTricker , uDana Nelson Dana Nelson
Watching this right now I am just laughing my ass off....
I have always wondered why the Honda sounds so poor off throttle. I asked the BBC pundits and they couldn't answer. To me sounds a lot like the blow diffuser era of cars. Peter Windsor could you a scar a please discuss this next time????
What do you guys mean by axial compressor? Do you have any photos of how this is used in any vehicle? I would like to understand this turbocharger. Thanks a lot peterwindsor and Craig Scarborough
Can't have too much Scarbs 😊
loved it
£1 on that odd exhaust noise being that of the first 'Big-Bang' firing order V6.
I'm glad Honda decided to come back, they belong on the grid. It's good for the other manufacturers as well - competition breeds excellence.
It is a pity though that variable valve technology isn't permitted, Honda could definitely use it's experience there - especially in terms of the tradeoff in packaging and such.
JonnoArigato Well.. Honda's introduction of VTEC in late 80s was THE reason why it was banned in all FIA motorsports :)
Heh, there is that. I dunno, I just think it's a pity that engine technology such as this is banned - F1 should be the technological pinnacle of motorsport.
Of course, I'm aware of cost restrictions and such but VTEC for example is not exactly new and unproven! :P
One thing I simply don't understand is the reason they put the Compressor housing inside the V. Its already hot in there and compressor efficiency will decrease. It will need more intercooling as the compressed air is already hotter due to the compressor sitting inside the V. Am I missing something?
***** This temperature disadvantage is partly true, but easily fixed by using heatshielding, and the gain is more important: They gain space to place the gearbox closer, keep the centre of gravity where they want, and reduce the lag due to a short distance between compressor and intake... The Ferrari solution seems even better in that area, but they've had a kink in their exhaust side :p
For an Analysis done by voice, your audio quality keeps going downhill :(
We need an update on what is the cause of the weird sound of the Honda PU.
With this only being the second year of this current Turbo era, and the last having lasted for 11 years, there seems to be plenty of time to develop this engine so it will be the top engine package in 2016. But will this also mean a new colour scheme for the McLaren since Honda's colours are Red and White and McLaren's are Orange, so maybe a White and Orange colour scheme. Since Silver is a German /Mercedes colour and with Mercedes no longer involved with McLaren, a new colour scheme could be in the works.
I wonder what's happening on Sakura, we rarely gets news directly from there lol
Don't tease ! What do you think they've done on the over run ?
darkfalken42 Exactly. If something should not be mentioned, than it should not be mentioned.
Its like giving someone a wrapped birthday present which has nothing inside it.
Does anyone have an idea what the radiator/intercooler layout is?
axial or radial compressor?
Scary the risk they're taking!!!!
where could be the intercooler between compressor and engine??
Onkar Mohite The two pipes you see next to the intake scoop on the left hand side will come out to the intercooler I would imagine, the "top" one cold and the lower one hot
Steve Langdon yes i think the same, the top going into the plenum and to the engine. also the hot one seems to be gold platted as from the images from race car engineering.
they've compromised horsepower and center of gravity for packaging. A bit silly they have made the same mistake as Ferrari did last year when they had the benefit of hindsight.
i did only sea the picture of the engine not off the people.
i don't know joe macari.
My question is: Is this all worth it???
I heard a rumor that the regulations are apparently going to change once again in 2017, engine based from what I know. I assume a Hybrid Power-Unit would still indeed be used, whether it's a turbo or how many cylinders is still debatable... Also, another rumor is that Audi and VW are looking to join F1, but because of the incredible amount of funding needed to compete, they won't join until Bernie leaves or a new regulation is decided. The current price of F1 is destroying it's competitiveness (in my opinion).
I know this is all speculation but, this does provide excellent excitement and curiosity to the sport.
So, back to my first question, is it worth Honda going through all this and only having one year to fight again (2016) if the above rumor(s) are true??
Anyway, that's my 5 cents worth... :)
SuperItalia494 They probably just raise the fuelflowlimit and the amount of fuel they are aloud to carry around a bit. They want to reach 1000hp to calm down some fans with this number and they can also beef up the sound a bit this way.
I actually wouldn't mind that at all :)
Do you think aero regulations will change as well?? Along with engine capacity and turbo boost??
I personally wouldn't mind seeing the driver push to the limit instead of all this fuel/tire saving crap (In my opinion). It's the pinnacle of Motorsports for Pete's sake!!! they get paid enough, so let us see what these driver are capable of... Am I wrong for think this??
I don't think they will change the aero-rules more than usual. The only thing i can imagine at the moment would be to set a limit to the frontwing complexity. The Merc Frontwing for instance has 6 or 7 elements/flaps on either side. It runs a bit out of hand in my opinion. I mean they look like a piece of art but it is a bit overkill i think. The engine capacity will stay the same, that's pretty sure. In terms of boost well, depends how they design the new rules. There is no boost limit in the rules directly but they limited because of the fuel flow limit.
The fuelsaving isn't a huge thing in my opinion.What bugs me more are the tyres. The temperature window they are really working in is to small and that's whats really limits the racing.
Yeah, I saw that new front wing Mercedes were running... Looks amazing but, Merc have a bid budget so that's why we are probably seeing these incredible designs.
So, this fuel-flow limit is really hindering the overall performance of the engine, from what I gather. Of course getting rid of this fuel-flow limit would not alter much due to the 100kg max of fuel now. I honestly would love to see the engines hitting that 15k rev limit, but it seems it doesn't exist...
I completely agree with you, about the tire saving. I mean it does add a bit more "excitement" since re-fueling was banned and make some interesting strategies. Like Ferrari did in Malaysia.
An idea I thought would be interesting to see would be just one set of slick tires per GP but, with more available during the weekend.
So far it does seem as if mclaren can't turn up their boost as much as others during qualifying
The Honda power unit is simply a Playstation 2 with a motorboat engine attached to it.
These turbo V6s are cool just need to rev to 20k tho lol
As said in the video, it's a shame that the teams and manufacturers are so secretive with the F1 technology. There should be a rule that requires some degree of disclosure after a couple of years.
mrbdazz of force them to show it now. There is already a rule forbidding them from covering wings and parts of the car during a race weekend
I was thinking about some high-level disclosure after 3-5 years when it no longer has competitive value. But not every detail and not necessarily even the design principles, to avoid the road car problem.
Electronic Gap
tini engine? thats a stupid thing to do you will have overheating fast and lack of power, plus the fixes are so dificult to made....whait that already hapened XD
I detest hybrids (as interesting as the technology is). Energy recovery is okay and logical. But full on hybrids are nothing more then the major manufacturers are terrified of all-electric vehicles and that is why they are pushing hybrids so much.
They are not pushing it to be 'green' - they are pushing them because they want to do everything they can from stopping people wanting all-electric cars because the latter means far fewer moving parts and require far less service - both things which are important to the manufacturers (the latter especially to the dealers as they make up a very large part of their profits).
Any doubt of this, just look at the pathetic ranges of the EV's they do sell. Tesla has proven that long range EV cars are possible - but since the major manufacturers do not want EV's, they only sell ones with horrible ranges so that they will never take off.
Plus, hybrids mean more moving parts, so more parts/service profits, a higher CAFE and probably a higher profit margin per vehicle sold.
Hybrids in F1 are, imo, virtually nothing to do with making F1 'modern' and are ENTIRELY to do with F1 desperate for major manufacturers money so they agree to these ridiculous engines to get the manufacturers back.
Dump these pathetic motors that sound HORRIBLE and are staggeringly expensive and just have one engine type that is built by one manufacturer (like Cosworth for example) and sell this (hopefully) 1,000 hp, non-hybrid engine to all the teams at a price that they all can easily afford.
McRocket Up to Mr Bernie Ecclestone I'm afraid... I do see your point and agree up to a point though.
One engine, or the possibility of equal specifications/money of each team, would dramatically increase the overall competitiveness of the drivers and make a substantial difference to the atmosphere of the sport. I think of it as being GP2 on steroids lol.
However, F1 has always been the pinnacle of Motorsport not only because of it's drivers competitiveness and glory but, also the engineering side of it (and of course lap time/speed)
After all isn't that what F1 is all about? A set regulations that every constructor have to abide by, and through that find the perfect car and driver that can deliver the number one result?
Just my opinion though mate... :)
McRocket Like Gates said, there's Formula E if you want a "green" sport. My issue with it is that pushing for cars to run on batteries isn't all that green, do you know how much toxic chemicals it takes to create a battery? Do you know how many gallons of air fuel it takes to ship every thing from one track to another? And those batteries will be charged up by coal and oil power plants, renewable energy is too inefficient to even bother with at the moment. So how about we get real and get rid of the green pretence?
Where did I say I wanted F1 to go more green? I didn't.
I want F1 to abandon 'green' altogether and run (ideally) normally aspirated V8's that pump out over 1000 hp.
I am well aware of Formula E and I follow it and I hope it takes off. But F1 is about speed, not fuel economy. Dump the ridiculous hybrids and go back to normally-aspirated gas ONLY motors.
***** Yes and that has nothing to do with what I said as I DO NOT want hybrids or 'green' F1 cars...I was referring to the major manufacturers...not F1. F1 would be all about spewed and NOTHING about fuel economy or 'being green'.
***** I agree with everything you typed - though I do like DRS and maybe (a big maybe) energy recovery system ('free' hp - why not?). I remember F1 got pretty processional for a while there way back when. But now it is not only silly with the hybrids, but ridiculously expensive. Do what Lauda wants - fat rear tires (so harder to drive) and 1000 hp. The fact that a 17 year old can come into F1 and do well means the cars are FAR too easy to drive.
Disappointing mclaren don't have the aero going
(H)old
(O)n
(N)ot
(D)one
(A)ccelerating
esso petrol no good
Honda just can't cut it in the big boys's game. The Japanese manufacturers are not able to compete in a level playing field without having rules in their favour. My prediction is that Honda can't make it and McLaren will look elsewhere for engine or develop their own engine. Honda can't make it. Time will tell...
Still think Honda can't cut it?
Fabian Leiva Yeah! Honda can't cut it without a major rule change.
+Sam R As i understand, it was mclarens choice to make the engine a tiny package. Incredible stupid descition, to sacrifice reliability and power for aero. And they aren't allowed to redesign, not enough engine tokens. And the mclaren chassis is no more than average, as they have been the last years. Mega fail
The individual parts & components may be good themselves but as a complete package they are poor, it is a case of less then the sum of it's parts, it will be a couple of seasons before McHonda are challenging for a win let alone a championship, Renault will get there before Honda.
Well, look at how bad Ferrari were last year compared to now. I dont think you should underestimate Mclaren-Honda, things could turn pretty fast. Not this year maybe, but in 2016 I think they will be right up there. Honda is a gigantic corp. and Mclaren know what they're doing.
Rottensteam Until they have had enough, i don't know why Honda bothered getting back into F1 after they pulled out at the drop of a hat a few years back, if they had not have pulled out they would have won the title with Ross Brawn!
I get that McLaren said nobody will win with a customer Mercedes engine, but they may as well built their own engine, furthermore they should have bought one of the teams that went bust & used them like red Bull use Torro Rosso & they could have had the Honda engine as well so they could get more data.
They have gone from being second best team to worst team in a few months, Alonso will be out next year as he won't stay, i bet Button will leave as well.
BigBaddie666 if Honda had stayed they would not have won ... because their engine was much less powerful than the Mercedes that Brawn ended up with.
Toyota would have done a better job.
Kia would have a better job as well.