Regarding Scarb's description of the 'log' style exhaust manifold coming out from the main block... I had never heard on the alloy Scarbs suggest as Inconel. I had to look it up and the technology on specialist alloys design for highly specific functions is incredible. It take shows like TRE and people like Scarbs to bring this technology to the foreground to people like me and I'm extremely thankful for this education on a lowly amateur interest level. Excellent work, cheers!
Wow what a true engineering piece of art even though I prefer the original V10 sound. Racing is always evolving but I didn't expect these types of changes.
what made the v10 sound special was that it was a much less regulated format, so there were differences in v angle, valves and timing, giving every engine model a distinct sound this was gone with the v8, and now with the v6 another problem is that the engine freeze of the v8 made engines just a marketing expense for manufacturers instead of a valuable testing ground they are willing to pay for, that way leaving less than half the manufacturers in the series, so even with different turbo setups there can"t be as many distinct solutions
Wow, lots of detailed information. Great job! I wonder though, if the general public never really gets to see how these things work or put together, how can a Dewar Trophy be awarded to such closely guarded closed source tech? Does the RSI (?) or whichever body that awards it get detailed info on all the tech being developed in F1?
Great video! With engine competition back in F1 there much more to talk about again. All the TV stations covering F1 I know of either can't or don't want to (or both) spend more than 5 minutes of 600 hours weekend coverage on the technology, so the real fan has to go to UA-cam to get quality coverage like this! Thanks very much! I hate that everything in this team is named Mercedes AMG.The marketing team should be fired, one strange decision follows another. It started in 2009 when they won the world championship as Brawn's engine supplier, but the general public didn't notice because there were no Mercedes-Benz-decals on the car!
Nice thing about F1 2013 & 2014 is that they've allowed for this race to become more of a technological expression rather than a drivers championship. No more over kill season after season by a single car and driver like Ferrari for so many years.
great work!...actually eccelstone or who ever runs the money business of formula 1 should sponsor windsor and scarbs for their work of making the f1 experience so much better for the fans and ending all the confusion which actually made a lot to lose interest!
Interesting to see that the engine doesn't have tuned length exhaust headers. Like is said in the video, this saves heat energy to be recovered in the turbine and saves a lot of packaging space on the car for aero benefits. In this formula, since boost pressure is not limited, there would be no benefit in trying to optimize cylinder charging by having tuned induction and exhaust. Rather, the extra energy saved by the log manifold can be used to generate higher boost from the turbo.
You are correct! And this is the same way very efficient inline 6cyl Heavy Duty truck Engines has been designed the last 10-20 years. Pulse separation and at the same time compact log headers.
Thanks for the info but do u have any citations to address this fact? I'm asking this since I am planning to formulate a short report about the PU 106 A power unit as a part of my semester thesis work. Thanks again in advance.
sandythemonk All I can find now is this: www.omnicorse.it/magazine/31542/f1-esclusivo-turbo-2014-renault-con-borgwarner-e-ferrari-con-honeywell It's italian, but you can translate it with a browser like Chrome.
When Cosworth produced the DFW the was a lot of detail about the engine . Now you see very little o the cars or the details of them . I don't believe it is all about technical secrecy but what it does is reduce interest in many motor racing fans. F1 to me I'd dying because interesting stories are now so rare, and teams and drivers are so hidden from crowds.
Inconel is used in the aircraft industry for the lockwire that holds the engines together, without lockwiring the engines would vibrate themselves apart and ruin your flying experience.
Klan (KKK - Kühnle, Kopp & Kausch) was in '70 '80 '90 very popular turbocharger manufacturer among German car manufacturers (especially for racing cars). Most of Mercedes Le Mans cars used KKK turbo, and Porsche used them, but now they don't make turbochargers, they sold it to BorgWarner (BorgWarner Turbo Systems GmbH) and KKK is now just brand name (they call them now 3K or KKK depends of model) and gas turbine division to Siemens (Siemens Turbomachinery Equipment GmbH)
Yes they can if it fits the regulations for 2015 but it'll mean they are copying something which is already out of date. Mercedes themselves would have already been working on the engine for 2015 at the beginning of the 2014 season, making it yet even better.
if it only was that simple as a turbocharger split. It's end to end all details count kind of scenario. There's massive amount of work going into software alone, calibration of the energy recovery systems, how you deploy that energy and so on. Just look at Renault, one season in and they struggle with mapping and driveability, that kind of stuff you'd expect them to have sorted by end of last year's tests.
Yes, but not everyone changed to gears that early. Renault for instance used a belt setup for all their turbo charged F1 engines and even for their early V10's.
The 89 Renault RS1 used a timing belt to connect basically everything. The RS2 one year later still used a belt setup to run the accessories and they kept this setup up to the RS9 which they used in 97. Ok, Renault changed to timing gears to connect the crank and cams at the very beginning of the 90's but the engine still used some belts to run certain things like the alternator and certain pumps.
Lol, Scarbs uses the word 'improves' turbo lag which I think he means by having a positive effect rather than a negative effect in the turbo spinning up to speed. I think what I just wrote makes sense!
I was going to post exactly the same thing. It baffles me when I see the miles of intake/exhaust plumbing on rice burners. When we were turbocharging in the late 70's and early 80's, we knew that the shorter the plumbing, the shorter the turbo lag. Not rocket science.
What's the bet they have removed the tuned exhaust setup and relied on a semi-tuned intake in that massive "frog" like intake manifold. With the heat energy recovery system they might be able to tune the flows more precisely to counter act short pipes.
Where are the V12 3.5L ? The 1.5 l biturbo 1000-1500 BHP V6 ? The problem of F1 is not the redistribution , it is fair that a top team gets more money than a team which is not, the problem is that despite a globalisation, the F1 is less popular than during the 80's and early 90's. Despite a bigger rate of profit given to teams ( 50% in 90, 60 % today) , more points ( you have to struggle and being among the top 6 to get points while today, top 10 give you points) , there is less and less public for F1. Because F1 is no more F1, simply !
And waste millions of dollars in power unit development that can not be applied to today's production engines (V6 turbos) and hybrid technology? Yeah, that makes lots of sense just to please a bunch of idiots that think that engine sounds are paramount to F1 racing.
I'm kind of somewhere in the middle on this one. I find the new turbo V6's with all the electronic wizardry quite fascinating, but F1 has way too many regulations that set too tight limits as to what kind of a car you can design. Instead of dictating and homologizing the engines to a certain displacent and technology and so on, what they sould have is just a limit on how much fuel per race you can have. And that's it. Let everyone figure out what kind of an engine they want to use, and if they want hybrid technology or something else in there. The same applies to many other aspects of the cars as well. F1 is way too restrictive on new technologies and the shape and configuration of the cars. Of course safety is important, so a rule saying that the nose must not be higher than X is ok so that you don't impale another driver's head with it, but there're just so many awesome things that the teams have come up during the years only to have FIA deem them illegal, that it is just insane. They should embrace new technology and developments, not think of them as an unfair advantage. If they keep coming up with new restrictions all the time, what will eventually happen is that every car will be exactly the same, with the only difference being the car set up. And that is not what F1 is supposed to be about. F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of technology in motor racing, and currently it just isn't. It is the pinnacle of trying to find loopholes in the rules and trying to fiddle with small stuff to find the extra 1/100th of a second per lap. Real innovation is almost completely banned, and if it isn't, FIA will ban it when you put it on the track. Just imagine what kind of amazing cars we'd have if the teams were free to use whatever technologies they wanted. Active aero, active suspension, intelligent differentials, blown diffusers, six-wheeled cars, fans that suck the cars to the track and all kinds of cool ideas that have been banned. Of course more freedom means more costs, so some kind of a budget limit is ok. But where FIA has got it wrong is how they reward teams. Currently FIA gives huge sums of money to teams that are successful. This is stupid, because of course the teams that have more money in the first place will be usually more successful. So the next season they'll have even more money and they'll be even harder to beat by the smaller teams with smaller budgets that don't get money from FIA. FIA should give the money to the teams with smaller budgets to level out the playing field by giving every team a chance of building a successful car. This way they wouldn't need to ban every new technology that the bigger, better funded teams come up, because the smaller teams would have the resources to copy the design, or come up with their own stuff in the first place by having the extra cash from FIA. TL:DR; Too many regulations by FIA kill innovation and technology, and FIA gives money to the wrong teams which makes F1 unfair to smaller teams.
Your observations do not hold up to scrutiny. Mercedes had never won a Constructor's Championship before 2014 EVER! Red Bull dominated the 4 years before and got the lions share of the money and they still did not win. It was the NEW innovation of the MB engine, split turbo design, and improved aerodynamics\packaging that earned them the dominating position in 2014. The rules are in place to control costs. Pure and simple. Without these rules, we would be watching MB, RB, and Ferrari with 8 car teams. Now that would make all the cars almost exactly the same and further concentrate the money for the remaining teams. Even with the current rules in place, we risk the loss (or have lost already) of Sauber, Caterham, and Force India with no new teams announced for 2015. Initial fueling limits have had very little effect and discussions are under way to raise the fuel flow limits in 2016 to raise power for ALL the teams in a very cost effective manner (no expensive hardware investment to gain power). Is the system perfect? No. But it is evolving and it is tough to make changes in a democracy (teams must agree, sometimes unanimously) for changes to be adopted.
Regarding Scarb's description of the 'log' style exhaust manifold coming out from the main block... I had never heard on the alloy Scarbs suggest as Inconel. I had to look it up and the technology on specialist alloys design for highly specific functions is incredible. It take shows like TRE and people like Scarbs to bring this technology to the foreground to people like me and I'm extremely thankful for this education on a lowly amateur interest level. Excellent work, cheers!
Wow what a true engineering piece of art even though I prefer the original V10 sound. Racing is always evolving but I didn't expect these types of changes.
what made the v10 sound special was that it was a much less regulated format, so there were differences in v angle, valves and timing, giving every engine model a distinct sound
this was gone with the v8, and now with the v6
another problem is that the engine freeze of the v8 made engines just a marketing expense for manufacturers instead of a valuable testing ground they are willing to pay for, that way leaving less than half the manufacturers in the series, so even with different turbo setups there can"t be as many distinct solutions
Wow, lots of detailed information. Great job!
I wonder though, if the general public never really gets to see how these things work or put together, how can a Dewar Trophy be awarded to such closely guarded closed source tech? Does the RSI (?) or whichever body that awards it get detailed info on all the tech being developed in F1?
Another fascinating and well made video helping demystify more F1 science for us techno nerd fans! Thanks @ScarbsF1 and peterwindsor :)
Great video! With engine competition back in F1 there much more to talk about again. All the TV stations covering F1 I know of either can't or don't want to (or both) spend more than 5 minutes of 600 hours weekend coverage on the technology, so the real fan has to go to UA-cam to get quality coverage like this! Thanks very much!
I hate that everything in this team is named Mercedes AMG.The marketing team should be fired, one strange decision follows another. It started in 2009 when they won the world championship as Brawn's engine supplier, but the general public didn't notice because there were no Mercedes-Benz-decals on the car!
A work of art ,very impressive design.
plz do reply
Nice thing about F1 2013 & 2014 is that they've allowed for this race to become more of a technological expression rather than a drivers championship. No more over kill season after season by a single car and driver like Ferrari for so many years.
Smart engine design!
great work!...actually eccelstone or who ever runs the money business of formula 1 should sponsor windsor and scarbs for their work of making the f1 experience so much better for the fans and ending all the confusion which actually made a lot to lose interest!
Interesting to see that the engine doesn't have tuned length exhaust headers. Like is said in the video, this saves heat energy to be recovered in the turbine and saves a lot of packaging space on the car for aero benefits. In this formula, since boost pressure is not limited, there would be no benefit in trying to optimize cylinder charging by having tuned induction and exhaust. Rather, the extra energy saved by the log manifold can be used to generate higher boost from the turbo.
You are correct!
And this is the same way very efficient inline 6cyl Heavy Duty truck Engines has been designed the last 10-20 years.
Pulse separation and at the same time compact log headers.
Yes, its all about managing energy since the only source of energy/power is limited by the 100kg/hr of fuel flow and 110kg max fuel available.
Later they got turbo shaft rpm limit and changed to tuned manifold.
As far as I know, Mercedes developed the turbocharger in cooperation with IHI(they have a laboratory in Stuttgart, Germany, I believe).
Thanks for the info but do u have any citations to address this fact? I'm asking this since I am planning to formulate a short report about the PU 106 A power unit as a part of my semester thesis work. Thanks again in advance.
sandythemonk All I can find now is this:
www.omnicorse.it/magazine/31542/f1-esclusivo-turbo-2014-renault-con-borgwarner-e-ferrari-con-honeywell
It's italian, but you can translate it with a browser like Chrome.
Yeah Chrome helped me in translation. So IHI has a technology center in Germany which is a joint venture between Daimler AG and IHI Group from Japan.
Great stuff!
When Cosworth produced the DFW the was a lot of detail about the engine . Now you see very little o the cars or the details of them . I don't believe it is all about technical secrecy but what it does is reduce interest in many motor racing fans. F1 to me I'd dying because interesting stories are now so rare, and teams and drivers are so hidden from crowds.
Thanks!
Fantastic!
mercedes wont be showing anything on that engine that isn't already out there, this sport is too competitive for that
Matt B I
Inconel is used in the aircraft industry for the lockwire that holds the engines together, without lockwiring the engines would vibrate themselves apart and ruin your flying experience.
Inconel is used for a whole lot more than lockwire!
True, but I was using the KISS principle - Keep It Simple Stupid.
Infinity/Renault was thinking about releasing a black series car with this turbo technology but never did?
4:27 WHAT? The Ku Klux Klan makes turbos? xD
Klan (KKK - Kühnle, Kopp & Kausch) was in '70 '80 '90 very popular turbocharger manufacturer among German car manufacturers (especially for racing cars). Most of Mercedes Le Mans cars used KKK turbo, and Porsche used them, but now they don't make turbochargers, they sold it to BorgWarner (BorgWarner Turbo Systems GmbH) and KKK is now just brand name (they call them now 3K or KKK depends of model) and gas turbine division to Siemens (Siemens Turbomachinery Equipment GmbH)
i was thinking like that
I'm dying so hard XD
Is that Warwick Davis answering the questions under some pseudonym?
Can other teams copy this in 2015?
Yes they can if it fits the regulations for 2015 but it'll mean they are copying something which is already out of date. Mercedes themselves would have already been working on the engine for 2015 at the beginning of the 2014 season, making it yet even better.
if it only was that simple as a turbocharger split. It's end to end all details count kind of scenario. There's massive amount of work going into software alone, calibration of the energy recovery systems, how you deploy that energy and so on. Just look at Renault, one season in and they struggle with mapping and driveability, that kind of stuff you'd expect them to have sorted by end of last year's tests.
Do these modern hybrid turbo engines still use timing belts.??
SuperCragster In F1? Nope. They use a gear setup. F1 stopped using timing belts somewhere in the late 90s
+shi01 Late 90's ? Look at a cosworth dfv from the mid 60's.
Yes, but not everyone changed to gears that early. Renault for instance used a belt setup for all their turbo charged F1 engines and even for their early V10's.
Which 90's v10 had a belt and at least not a chain? Good cars don't even use rubber timing belts.
The 89 Renault RS1 used a timing belt to connect basically everything. The RS2 one year later still used a belt setup to run the accessories and they kept this setup up to the RS9 which they used in 97.
Ok, Renault changed to timing gears to connect the crank and cams at the very beginning of the 90's but the engine still used some belts to run certain things like the alternator and certain pumps.
i dont think those are really batteries in a traditional sense, most likely those are super capacitors that can charge and discharge energy rapidly.
They're lithium ion batteries.
Dont remember the rules but if capacitor is allowed perhaps a combination of them?
3:13 ....You mean reduces?(not trying to be a smartass, feel free to correct me).
Lol, Scarbs uses the word 'improves' turbo lag which I think he means by having a positive effect rather than a negative effect in the turbo spinning up to speed. I think what I just wrote makes sense!
Capt Nemo Yeah, I feel the same way actually....
I was going to post exactly the same thing. It baffles me when I see the miles of intake/exhaust plumbing on rice burners. When we were turbocharging in the late 70's and early 80's, we knew that the shorter the plumbing, the shorter the turbo lag. Not rocket science.
What's the bet they have removed the tuned exhaust setup and relied on a semi-tuned intake in that massive "frog" like intake manifold. With the heat energy recovery system they might be able to tune the flows more precisely to counter act short pipes.
Why don't they feed in their own supply of oxygen from an inboard source of liquid oxygen?!
weight
Rules
Many, many reasons........
Oxygen in air = free
It would be nice to have a banana for scale...
Ooph, 4MJ??
Yeah, that's the energy equivalent of about 16 ounces of gasoline.
160hp for 33 seconds. That is a lot of energy
bring back F-zero .. F1 has too many rules.
Where are the V12 3.5L ? The 1.5 l biturbo 1000-1500 BHP V6 ? The problem of F1 is not the redistribution , it is fair that a top team gets more money than a team which is not, the problem is that despite a globalisation, the F1 is less popular than during the 80's and early 90's. Despite a bigger rate of profit given to teams ( 50% in 90, 60 % today) , more points ( you have to struggle and being among the top 6 to get points while today, top 10 give you points) , there is less and less public for F1. Because F1 is no more F1, simply !
fuck these new engines...hippy bullshit...bring back the V-10's!!!!!!
Amen
Can the real F1 please stand up!!!!
And waste millions of dollars in power unit development that can not be applied to today's production engines (V6 turbos) and hybrid technology? Yeah, that makes lots of sense just to please a bunch of idiots that think that engine sounds are paramount to F1 racing.
I'm kind of somewhere in the middle on this one. I find the new turbo V6's with all the electronic wizardry quite fascinating, but F1 has way too many regulations that set too tight limits as to what kind of a car you can design. Instead of dictating and homologizing the engines to a certain displacent and technology and so on, what they sould have is just a limit on how much fuel per race you can have. And that's it. Let everyone figure out what kind of an engine they want to use, and if they want hybrid technology or something else in there. The same applies to many other aspects of the cars as well. F1 is way too restrictive on new technologies and the shape and configuration of the cars. Of course safety is important, so a rule saying that the nose must not be higher than X is ok so that you don't impale another driver's head with it, but there're just so many awesome things that the teams have come up during the years only to have FIA deem them illegal, that it is just insane. They should embrace new technology and developments, not think of them as an unfair advantage. If they keep coming up with new restrictions all the time, what will eventually happen is that every car will be exactly the same, with the only difference being the car set up. And that is not what F1 is supposed to be about. F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of technology in motor racing, and currently it just isn't. It is the pinnacle of trying to find loopholes in the rules and trying to fiddle with small stuff to find the extra 1/100th of a second per lap. Real innovation is almost completely banned, and if it isn't, FIA will ban it when you put it on the track.
Just imagine what kind of amazing cars we'd have if the teams were free to use whatever technologies they wanted. Active aero, active suspension, intelligent differentials, blown diffusers, six-wheeled cars, fans that suck the cars to the track and all kinds of cool ideas that have been banned.
Of course more freedom means more costs, so some kind of a budget limit is ok. But where FIA has got it wrong is how they reward teams. Currently FIA gives huge sums of money to teams that are successful. This is stupid, because of course the teams that have more money in the first place will be usually more successful. So the next season they'll have even more money and they'll be even harder to beat by the smaller teams with smaller budgets that don't get money from FIA. FIA should give the money to the teams with smaller budgets to level out the playing field by giving every team a chance of building a successful car. This way they wouldn't need to ban every new technology that the bigger, better funded teams come up, because the smaller teams would have the resources to copy the design, or come up with their own stuff in the first place by having the extra cash from FIA.
TL:DR; Too many regulations by FIA kill innovation and technology, and FIA gives money to the wrong teams which makes F1 unfair to smaller teams.
Your observations do not hold up to scrutiny. Mercedes had never won a Constructor's Championship before 2014 EVER! Red Bull dominated the 4 years before and got the lions share of the money and they still did not win. It was the NEW innovation of the MB engine, split turbo design, and improved aerodynamics\packaging that earned them the dominating position in 2014.
The rules are in place to control costs. Pure and simple. Without these rules, we would be watching MB, RB, and Ferrari with 8 car teams. Now that would make all the cars almost exactly the same and further concentrate the money for the remaining teams.
Even with the current rules in place, we risk the loss (or have lost already) of Sauber, Caterham, and Force India with no new teams announced for 2015.
Initial fueling limits have had very little effect and discussions are under way to raise the fuel flow limits in 2016 to raise power for ALL the teams in a very cost effective manner (no expensive hardware investment to gain power).
Is the system perfect? No. But it is evolving and it is tough to make changes in a democracy (teams must agree, sometimes unanimously) for changes to be adopted.