Honestly in my opinion the best and most accurate depiction of The Riddler outside the comics is the one from the Arkham games. Wally Wingert who voiced the character in all 4 games always delivered such an incredible performance that always managed to perfectly capture Riddler's obsessive personality, massive ego and superiority complex.
@@sigmaarmstrong8460 He was truly incredible and all of his episodes were some of my favorite in that show but similar with John Glover in Batman the Animated Series they didn't get a lot of episodes to shine.
Buried within "Batman Forever" is actually a pretty good movie waiting to get out. Some restructuring of the script, and dialing back TLJ and Carrey a notch could have done wonders for this film. More of this, please!
The characterizations of the Joker, the Penguin, and Two-Face all worked reasonably well in these movies because each of the actors got at least one scene in which his character showed a serious side proving he truly was evil and not simply a nutcase. The Joker had his "murder as art" speech, Two-Face got the "One man is born a hero, his brother a coward" soliloquy, and the Penguin was given TWO such speeches ("Dying from the carcinogens you've personally spewed in a lifetime of profiteering" and "Touring the riot scene. Gravely assessing the devastation"). I'd say these speeches were really cultured, James Bond villain stuff, but I'd go even further and claim they're downright Shakespearean villain stuff (except for Shakespeare's flowery language, of course). One complaint about the Nolan films was that both the villains and the heroes talked too much, but in Burton's and Schumacher's films the monologues fit right in due to the operatic scale on which the stories were played out. If they had just gone a little further, caring more about the dialogue than about selling Happy Meal toys, how wonderful it would have been!
@@SeasideDetective2 you people look waaaaaaaaaaaaay too deeply into a bad movie that you like because of it’s age and the fact that it’s nostalgic for you while shitting on amazing newer movies for not being as shitty as the crinfests you like. How do you manage to be that fucking retarded?
I was already obsessed with Jim Carrey as a kid when Batman Forever came out and his version of the Riddler was exactly what 6/7 year old me wanted to see! There's more nuance to the portrayal than he's often given credit and he fits the tone and world of this movie perfectly. The homage to the 60s series is blatant throughout and I think of the Joel Schumacher Batman movies as a tribute to that era of the caped crusader.
I've always preferred the Penguin, Catwoman, and Two-Face, to be honest. Carrey, Jack Nicholson, and Arnold Schwarzenegger got their villain roles on the strength of their charisma alone, which is why in these movies the Riddler, the Joker, and Mr. Freeze come across more as exaggerations of the actors playing them than they do themselves. Danny DeVito, Michelle Pfeiffer, and Tommy Lee Jones, on the other hand, put more effort into "becoming" their characters. (In fact, DeVito and Jones in particular frustrate me because their characterizations came SO very close to perfection, but they just couldn't resist surrendering to comic shtick along with everyone else except Pfeiffer.)
@@SeasideDetective2 are you serious?! Tommy Lee's portrayal of Two Face was near perfection?! Did we see the same movie? The dude was so far gone from the character he should have been playing a low key joker. His portrayal was horrible. He didn't balance both sides and he was just laughing and screaming the entire time. Terrible interpretation of an iconic character. And when you dive deeper into the back scenes he didn't even want to play a "comic character" let alone study to become "near perfection" of the character he was portraying.
@@WarlockX4 What I mean to say was that THIS Two-Face had potential, and I can overlook the cringier elements of him in a way I can't overlook those of Carrey's Riddler. And it's funny what you said at the end, because in the "making-of" documentary Jones mentioned he'd learned about Two-Face from his son, who was a fan of comic books, and became fascinated by the character the more he studied him. Given what he "really" said about making the movie, though, I suppose that was just public-relations rhetoric for Warner Brothers.
@@SeasideDetective2 Two-Face doesn't laugh. Tommy Lee Jones's Two-Face would've been a perfect straight man to Jim Carrey's funny man. This would've been the perfect Batman version of The Odd Couple.
@@tperson8347 As I understand it, Jones WANTED to play the role as straight as possible, but he felt Carrey was trying to upstage him, so he felt he had to compete with him in hammy acting. So while he famously told Carrey that "I do not sanction your buffoonery," in the end that was more sour grapes than anything else.
thats more of a matter of his personality than what required of the character. was there some sythesis? yes! enough to carry the role? sure. but was it a "quintessential" representation of what the character is? no.
I mean if a guy can obsess over bats and have every single thing he owns in the shape of a bat or have a bat symbol on it, that it's not hard to believe that someone who is obsessed with riddles would have question marks all over everything that they have
You hit the nail on the head in saying that Jim Carrey is great as the Riddler when you take into account that he is doing the Frank Gorshin version of the Riddler. I think Joel Schumacher was trying to make his own version of the Adam West series and most of the time it failed, but Jim Carrey was one of the few times that it was done right.
It just occurred to me how interesting it is that Schumacher directed both this film and FALLING DOWN. Michael Douglas's Bill Foster/"D-FENS" was a sort of (relatively) normal Riddler, sharing Nygma's hatred of his job (or, in Foster's case, lack of a job) and a desire to want to lash out at society and ultimately kill random people. In fact, I theorize that BATMAN FOREVER is the intersection of a Venn diagram of sorts where Selina Kyle's embittered secretary in BATMAN RETURNS and what I think of as the '90s "I hate my job" movie trilogy (FALLING DOWN, OFFICE SPACE, and AMERICAN BEAUTY). The fact that all five of these movies were made in the same decade is fascinating to me, and I know from watching another UA-cam video that these thoughts aren't mine alone. It seemed that one of the recurring themes of '90s popular culture was a return to the paradoxical malaise of simultaneous obsession with and disillusionment with the world of work that writers and filmmakers had previously probed during the 1920s and the '50s (in contrast to the '30s, when work was ennobling, and to the '80s, when work was seen as fun).
I do not think that Joel Schumacher was intentionally trying to recreate the 60 show. There are definitely some moments where he does pay a homage to it, but These are meant to be more serious films, at least Batman Forever is trying to be. It's just not as serious as the Burton ones were.
I would say that Frank Gorshin's Riddler had just the right dash of menace and cunning to him. He would laugh and bask in his own giddiness, but there were times when he was angry or more understated that his psychotic genius really shown through. Also, his Riddler was *obsessed* with outsmarting Batman... which I think is an essential element to the character.
I have a little theory that Edward already knew about Bruce's secret identity before he became The Riddler. That's why he sends him riddles with clues leading to his name. The whole thing with the brain machine was needed just to convince Two-Face.
No it wasnt until Bruce went into the Nigma machine in the party and they saw The Bat that was in Bruce's mind that he figured out he was Batman. He was obsessed with Bruce because he didnt give him the validation he wanted.
Glad I wasn't the only one, the two face in this film was so poorly done, he was Jack Nicholson Joker-Lite. They did Tommy Lee Jones dirty by giving him this poorly written role. Should've just keep the Riddler as the only villain if they didn't know how to fit Two Face in the film.
@@jiujitsusilencer8533 Actually Tommy's portrayal could have been very good, but was ultimately his fault. He couldn't stand Jim Carrey and instead of trying to portray a good two face, he just spent the entire movie trying to out Jim Carrey Jim Carrey. Which went about as well as you'd think. Nobody does that. Two Face's introduction in the movie is about the best we get out of Tommy in his portrayal and even in the later half of that he starts acting Joker-like. When you understand the context of why he portrays two face in this way it's blatantly obvious Tommy was just acting entirely out of pettiness. Two Face is a character that hasn't been particularly portrayed well in movies and he had the opportunity to do to make this movie stand out but his ego made it so the person he disliked and was mocking became the most notable thing about it.
Jim Carrey as the Riddler is the last memory I have of my grandmother on my dad's side. She took me to see this movie back when it came out, And so his role as the Riddler will always hold a special place in my heart. I'm not sure I would ever call it objectively "good" but my memory of my grandmother taking me to see the movie will always override the public's perception, and even my own adult perception of his portrayal as the Riddler.
For me yes I love his off the wall energy,for me The Riddler is someone that enjoys testing the Batman. Someone who wants a being who can test his intellect Having the ego of always wanting to prove that he's superior,and I agree that Carrey brings his own unique twist on this character Plus it helps that I love a bit of camp in my Batman villains
The biggest mistake in this movie - well, one of the biggest - was hinting that Edward Nygma was homosexual, albeit in a very asexual way. Roger Ebert claimed to pick up on a lot of gay subtext while watching BATMAN FOREVER, although he attributed this primarily to the way Batman and Robin dressed. Even so, Nygma seemed to heavily (if codedly) flirt with both Bruce and Two-Face, and at his launch party he seems very uninterested in Sugar, squiring her around only to "prove" his heterosexuality. There was a scene filmed but ultimately cut of the Riddler injecting a bound Chase Meridian with a sleeping potion through her neck, in an almost vampiric way, and my guess is that it was cut because Schumacher felt it clashed with the film's otherwise homoerotic flavor. I don't think I'm imagining any of this, because I remember even at the time hearing a lot of "These characters are gay!" jokes.
Batman Forever will always have a place in my heart. Watched it in theaters 3 times as a 6-year-old and a big Batman fan. This movie was the 90s for me.
I hate riddles and other such nonsense.....but also loved this video!!! It's so good to hear the praise that I 100% believe this role deserved. Granted I'm biased, I grew up on this movie and it was always my favourite. But it's an amazing portrayal of a character who has so much to offer. Personally I don't think he's very comparable to the Joker here. And I absolutely love the scene where he's trying out different costumes and names, that's freaking brilliant!! Cz you know, they all must have done that at some point, but watching him do it just fits the character so well! Thank you for this video and can't wait for one about Robin ❤️
He did his thing as Riddler. I enjoyed him as a kid. Most of his movies in the 90's I enjoyed as a kid. But looking back on it now? I think he would have made an awesome Joker.
The great thing about Gorshin's Riddler is that he could flip from grimly plotting any amount of mayhem (and even death), to insane goofiness. Carrey's Riddler doesn't have that range (even when plotting any amount of etc.)
Touching on your point about his intelligence. I think I remember him saying he uses that knowledge for his own morbid curiosity (sexual secrets) and stealing bank information and such. Definitely not a huge plot point but it's kinda there.
I will say that this version of riddler was not only my first introduction to him as a kid but also to Jim Carry. Hell, while not the first (cartoon versions beat it out) it was still one of the earliest batman's I ever saw
The Riddler has been my favorite Batman villain as long as I can remember. And not only do I agree with everything you have said here, but it's what I have been saying since the movie came out. Bravo, you get it!!!
I think Jim Carrey's Riddle was pretty good ( Little over the top but pretty good ). The one difference between that version and the 60s version is that in Batman Forever it shows how Edward became the Riddle while the 60s version been thrust into the Batman series without ( ! ) .
Growing up with the Michael Keaton Batman’s and then seeing batman returns I remember being let down by how cartoon like this verdant and the next felt. We loved the gritty batman and it wasn’t till the animated series did we feel it again.
I love your Batman videos. Do you think there’s any chance you’d do a video about Burton’s cancelled third Batman movie? There’s a good bit of ideas and casting choices that could give you an idea on what could’ve been done had it gone further to production
To be fair there doesn’t seem to be a way that the Riddler can be portrayed without someone saying it isn’t the correct interpretation. If you go classic, “he’s too much like the Joker”, if you go modern, “he’s nothing like the original”.
Funny they say that, since Joker is not that much like the original. The movies always exaggerate what the Joker really is. And that is partially the reason why so many people overrate the character these days including the comic book writers themselves. Joker is only a guy who is obssessed with the fact that Batman has managed to keep himself somewhat sane and working for the good of the city, while himself completely fell to the dark side. His whole character is about trying to paint Batman black, through whatever means necessary. There was never any need to exaggerate on the dose and have him become the biggest villain Batman ever had, specially because Batman has villains that much deserve this post, villains like Ras Al'Ghul, Hugo Strange(who wants to fully understand him to the point of training to become similar to Batman himself), Hush. All villains that have actual qualities that would make for better rivals.
I watched this as a 10 yo kid in theatres because I loved Jim Carrey. I can still watch it because of Jim. My young kids now watch it over and over because I introduced them to Carrey, in the mask and ace Ventura, and now recognise him in all his glory in this movie. Forget Batman, the Riddler is the reason they love this movie.
I think Bob Kane and Bill Finger intended for the Riddler (who first appeared in the late 1940s) to be what the Joker eventually became: a man who was extremely intelligent and completely psychotic at the same time. Until the late '80s, in the wake of THE KILLING JOKE and Jack Nicholson's portrayal in Tim Burton's movie, the Joker was usually portrayed as only one of those at a time, with the emphasis usually on "psychotic." It's worth noting, though, that in 1940, in his very first Batman story, the Joker was technically not psychotic, since he was a jewel thief with a rational modus operandi, although the murders he committed were completely gratuitous. And the early '40s Joker is also implied to be intelligent enough to have created his smile toxin on his own, which he injects into the bloodstreams of his sleeping victims. The Riddler, meanwhile, has shifted more or less in the opposite direction, going from "lunatic" to "genius" in a way that made his character more serious but (in contrast to the Joker) less grotesque. In fact, one could argue that it was the Riddler, not the Joker, who ultimately set the template for Gotham City's rogues gallery, since most of the modern villains tend to be both brainy and relatively serious. I'd say that the Joker, Harley Quinn, and the Mad Hatter are the only three villains you can still get away with portraying as silly or goofy. (Okay, maybe the Ventriloquist too.)
I always loved Carrey's performance as Riddler.......I actually think Carrey is a very underrated actor. I personally loved Dano as the Riddler in The Batman as well..I know it's a very different version, but it was great nonetheless.
I just want to say that compared to the next movie in the series, this is a masterpiece. Val Kilmer and Jim Carrey were both great despite the criticism.
Jim Carrey made it into a small category with Robin Williams and Jack Black where they just have their own way of story telling. They all do it differently but it's of the same spirit.
I have to assume that Jones meant Carrey's "buffoonery" in his filmography up to that point and not specifically on set. Otherwise it makes little sense considering the movie he was in and Jones performance in the film being even more clownish.
@@happninmojo I heard a theory that Jones was smarting that his Ty Cobb movie got outdone by I think _Dumb and Dumber_ and now he was,working with the star of that movie.
You nailed it, Jim Carrey is doing his take on Frank Gorshin and in that regard, he absolutely kills it. This movie doesn't hold up that well today, but Jim Carrey as the Riddler was the best part.
yeah i think people forgot that WB hired schumacher to go back to the 60s/ Adam West ish era after Batman returns as they felt it was too Dark and wanted to go back to being.....dun dun dun...campy as hell.
Looking back Carrey did a good job with the role. Comparing Joker & Riddler is natural as the 2 have a lot in common. Even when making plans in BTAS Joker said a plan was too much like the Riddler
The answer to that is a resounding "Yes!". He brought The Riddler to life. The original Batman show Riddler was good but Jim made him even better and funny
If he had a great director in his corner, like Christopher Nolan, he could have been great. He was wonderful in Insomnia and One Hour Photo the same year.
If Tim Burton would have been kept on as the Director for the 3rd film Billy Dee Williams would have been in Tommy Lee Jones' place. I heard at the end of the 1st Batman in the sewer when Catwoman makes out with Max Shreck and the electric cable that was supposed to be Harvey Dent who would then be burned and become Two Face in the 3rd film. Would have loved to see that.
I love how you present your arguments. No matter if I agree or not, you present them in a way that can be respected. That being said, I have a new appreciation for this take on The Riddler. Never thought about him as a take on Frank Gorshin. I see that now
Excellent take. Batman Forever has been unjustly dragged down by Batman & Robin (which isn't even that bad imo). Though I've seen a lot of people reflect fondly on Carrey's Riddler after the bland interpretation we got in The Batman. Still, in live action we've had nothing as definitive as Gorshin's Riddler but I'm okay with that.
@@od4407 Misusing the term “literally” isn’t helping your case that you can’t read. Which part of the big scary paragraph offended your delicate sensibilities?
@@SlashManEXE No it’s pretty literal. It was a shit take. Anyone who says Batman & Robin isn’t even that bad has a shit take, period. And giving the newest Riddler iteration a bland description is another shit take…hence the literal shit
I have made the frank gorshin comparison many times cause to me Joel made Batman forever like he was saying to the viewers not to forget about the 60’s series and movie cause despite the riddler being a modernized version of their riddler flying Greyson’s uniform was Burt ward’s version of the robin suit and dick actually said “holy rusted metal Batman” and Burt had holy phrases on the show and in the movie most people think Batman and robin was Joel’s love letter to the 60’s but nothing in that movie shows it like Batman forever does
I've always thought a good Riddler should tread the line between serious and silly. He definitely needs to present himself as genuinely calm, composed, and arrogant, but occasional jokes or lapses into bouts of manic glee when a plan is succeeding would fit given his psychosis. One thing about Carrey's Riddler that always confused me is why they gave him the BTAS Mad Hatter origin (troubled former employee of Wayne Enterprises who snaps and was working on a project that involves manipulating the human brain)
I've read somewhere that Batman Forever and the sequel Batman and Robin were very much modeled on the 1960's TV show. All around. It's what they wanted to do instead of the darker Tim Burton stuff and felt it would appeal to kids more.
I am definitely more insulted by what they did to Two Face over what they did to the Riddler. I think that being goofy and over the top can work with the Riddler, it doesn’t work for Two Face who is usually portrayed as a very dark and tragic villain, being goofy and over the top doesn’t work for a villain like Two Face. It is also why it didn’t work when they had Mr Freeze spout off those ice puns while keeping the tragic backstory with his wife that Batman the Animated Series created and so it made it so Mr Freeze fails in two different ways.
@@morganyoung3557 I agree, making Two-Face more goofy and over the top is a pretty terrible idea mostly because of how in most Batman related media, what happens to Harvey Dent still haunts Bruce because Harvey was a pretty upstanding person and good friend of his who fell to crime.
my favorite version of the riddler is from the books, when he finally becomes a detective and works for the pd, i find this to be the most satisfying version, mainly because he isn't trying to be like a watered down joker, and hyper fixates on solving crimes.
I really love Jim Carey in this film because of one single joke that he clearly just tossed in there. He walks onscreen with the jacket that has the flashing question marks and asks Nicole Kidman,"You like the jacket? It keeps me safe while I'm jogging at night." 😂😂😂
I would say the first use of the overlooked nerdy villain with glasses who turns bad actually comes from Michelle Pfeiffer’s Catwoman in Batman Returns; she’s the blueprint for the trope, and it was fleshed out and solidified with Jim’s Riddler
Yes, but it was Riddler who had the "obsessed with the main character" thing first. Selina might have crushed on Bruce Wayne a bit, but she didn't have pictures of him all over her wall.
Jim Carrey was just playing Jim Carrey as he do in most of his comedies. And don't get me wrong, he was the best part of that movie, very entertaining and he understood the mission: he knew he was in a comedy. But the only thing that made me think he was the Riddler was his suit.
I always loved Jim Carrey as the Riddler and definitely thought of him as a continuation of the 60's series. Both of the Joel Shumacher Batman films seemed to fit more with the series than Tim Burton's first two. I would love to see Robin Williams' take on the character, I heard he was considered for the role of the Riddler after he got sort of screwed out of the Joker role in the 1989 Batman after Jack Nicholson turned down the role and then changed his mind.
I just want to say I loved both Batman Forever and Batman and Robin. I think both movies got unnecessarily dunked on. But my favorite Batman is the one you mentioned the Adam West Batman. If you look at the two movies as a sequel to the 1960’s film they really do work. Frank Gorshin really played the Riddler as unhinged and his replacement John Astin would go on to play Gomez Adams. What can I say Carrie did a great Riddler and his movie was fine for someone who liked the comedy bat show.
Carrey and Jones are the saving grace of Batman Forever. They perfectly portray Schumacher's vision of the Batman world (flawed as it may well be) and are great callbacks to the campy style of the tv series.
Honestly in my opinion the best and most accurate depiction of The Riddler outside the comics is the one from the Arkham games. Wally Wingert who voiced the character in all 4 games always delivered such an incredible performance that always managed to perfectly capture Riddler's obsessive personality, massive ego and superiority complex.
i agree. but i also really really loved john glover in the animated series.
I think the best Riddler was Robert Englund from "The Batman 2004."
@@sigmaarmstrong8460 He was truly incredible and all of his episodes were some of my favorite in that show but similar with John Glover in Batman the Animated Series they didn't get a lot of episodes to shine.
Better than Gotham’s portrayal ? The Riddler in Forever is a modern Batman 1966. Both are from the earlier versions of The Riddler.
@@U.S.A.IS.A.BRIT.PROTECTATE Gotham's portrayal was really great however one thing I didn't care for is them making Riddler an alternate personality.
Buried within "Batman Forever" is actually a pretty good movie waiting to get out. Some restructuring of the script, and dialing back TLJ and Carrey a notch could have done wonders for this film. More of this, please!
The characterizations of the Joker, the Penguin, and Two-Face all worked reasonably well in these movies because each of the actors got at least one scene in which his character showed a serious side proving he truly was evil and not simply a nutcase. The Joker had his "murder as art" speech, Two-Face got the "One man is born a hero, his brother a coward" soliloquy, and the Penguin was given TWO such speeches ("Dying from the carcinogens you've personally spewed in a lifetime of profiteering" and "Touring the riot scene. Gravely assessing the devastation"). I'd say these speeches were really cultured, James Bond villain stuff, but I'd go even further and claim they're downright Shakespearean villain stuff (except for Shakespeare's flowery language, of course). One complaint about the Nolan films was that both the villains and the heroes talked too much, but in Burton's and Schumacher's films the monologues fit right in due to the operatic scale on which the stories were played out. If they had just gone a little further, caring more about the dialogue than about selling Happy Meal toys, how wonderful it would have been!
Yes dialing back The Last Jedi would improve any film
@@SeasideDetective2 you people look waaaaaaaaaaaaay too deeply into a bad movie that you like because of it’s age and the fact that it’s nostalgic for you while shitting on amazing newer movies for not being as shitty as the crinfests you like. How do you manage to be that fucking retarded?
Nostalgia Critic did a rewrite for the script if Tim Burton wrote it, it's pretty good and I can't recommend it enough.
I always said the exact same thing, it’s a good movie hidden in a subpar one. I’ll Forever love it( pun intended) for nostalgia and it’s a fun time.
I was already obsessed with Jim Carrey as a kid when Batman Forever came out and his version of the Riddler was exactly what 6/7 year old me wanted to see! There's more nuance to the portrayal than he's often given credit and he fits the tone and world of this movie perfectly. The homage to the 60s series is blatant throughout and I think of the Joel Schumacher Batman movies as a tribute to that era of the caped crusader.
I've always preferred the Penguin, Catwoman, and Two-Face, to be honest. Carrey, Jack Nicholson, and Arnold Schwarzenegger got their villain roles on the strength of their charisma alone, which is why in these movies the Riddler, the Joker, and Mr. Freeze come across more as exaggerations of the actors playing them than they do themselves. Danny DeVito, Michelle Pfeiffer, and Tommy Lee Jones, on the other hand, put more effort into "becoming" their characters. (In fact, DeVito and Jones in particular frustrate me because their characterizations came SO very close to perfection, but they just couldn't resist surrendering to comic shtick along with everyone else except Pfeiffer.)
@@SeasideDetective2 are you serious?! Tommy Lee's portrayal of Two Face was near perfection?! Did we see the same movie? The dude was so far gone from the character he should have been playing a low key joker. His portrayal was horrible. He didn't balance both sides and he was just laughing and screaming the entire time. Terrible interpretation of an iconic character. And when you dive deeper into the back scenes he didn't even want to play a "comic character" let alone study to become "near perfection" of the character he was portraying.
@@WarlockX4 What I mean to say was that THIS Two-Face had potential, and I can overlook the cringier elements of him in a way I can't overlook those of Carrey's Riddler. And it's funny what you said at the end, because in the "making-of" documentary Jones mentioned he'd learned about Two-Face from his son, who was a fan of comic books, and became fascinated by the character the more he studied him. Given what he "really" said about making the movie, though, I suppose that was just public-relations rhetoric for Warner Brothers.
@@SeasideDetective2
Two-Face doesn't laugh.
Tommy Lee Jones's Two-Face would've been a perfect straight man to Jim Carrey's funny man.
This would've been the perfect Batman version of The Odd Couple.
@@tperson8347 As I understand it, Jones WANTED to play the role as straight as possible, but he felt Carrey was trying to upstage him, so he felt he had to compete with him in hammy acting. So while he famously told Carrey that "I do not sanction your buffoonery," in the end that was more sour grapes than anything else.
Yes. He was fun, quirky, yet still held that level of derangement where you believed his life revolved around riddles.
thats more of a matter of his personality than what required of the character. was there some sythesis? yes! enough to carry the role? sure. but was it a "quintessential" representation of what the character is? no.
If the Riddler was someone trying to do an Ace Ventura impression, then he nailed it.
I mean if a guy can obsess over bats and have every single thing he owns in the shape of a bat or have a bat symbol on it, that it's not hard to believe that someone who is obsessed with riddles would have question marks all over everything that they have
Jim Carrey's Riddler had an entire massive character journey that many supervillains fail to get after a decade.
You hit the nail on the head in saying that Jim Carrey is great as the Riddler when you take into account that he is doing the Frank Gorshin version of the Riddler. I think Joel Schumacher was trying to make his own version of the Adam West series and most of the time it failed, but Jim Carrey was one of the few times that it was done right.
It just occurred to me how interesting it is that Schumacher directed both this film and FALLING DOWN. Michael Douglas's Bill Foster/"D-FENS" was a sort of (relatively) normal Riddler, sharing Nygma's hatred of his job (or, in Foster's case, lack of a job) and a desire to want to lash out at society and ultimately kill random people. In fact, I theorize that BATMAN FOREVER is the intersection of a Venn diagram of sorts where Selina Kyle's embittered secretary in BATMAN RETURNS and what I think of as the '90s "I hate my job" movie trilogy (FALLING DOWN, OFFICE SPACE, and AMERICAN BEAUTY). The fact that all five of these movies were made in the same decade is fascinating to me, and I know from watching another UA-cam video that these thoughts aren't mine alone. It seemed that one of the recurring themes of '90s popular culture was a return to the paradoxical malaise of simultaneous obsession with and disillusionment with the world of work that writers and filmmakers had previously probed during the 1920s and the '50s (in contrast to the '30s, when work was ennobling, and to the '80s, when work was seen as fun).
I do not think that Joel Schumacher was intentionally trying to recreate the 60 show. There are definitely some moments where he does pay a homage to it, but These are meant to be more serious films, at least Batman Forever is trying to be. It's just not as serious as the Burton ones were.
I've always enjoyed Jim Carrey's version of the Riddler. He was one of the best parts about Batman Forever.
no
@Dthesun such a well thought out, hugly detailed rebuttal.
I agree with that
Fun Fact:Robin Williams originally was going to play the Riddler if Tim Burton had directed the movie.
@@cornbreadmilton5265 He would have been neat too.
I would say that Frank Gorshin's Riddler had just the right dash of menace and cunning to him. He would laugh and bask in his own giddiness, but there were times when he was angry or more understated that his psychotic genius really shown through. Also, his Riddler was *obsessed* with outsmarting Batman... which I think is an essential element to the character.
I have a little theory that Edward already knew about Bruce's secret identity before he became The Riddler. That's why he sends him riddles with clues leading to his name. The whole thing with the brain machine was needed just to convince Two-Face.
No it wasnt until Bruce went into the Nigma machine in the party and they saw The Bat that was in Bruce's mind that he figured out he was Batman. He was obsessed with Bruce because he didnt give him the validation he wanted.
'Brain drain machine'
The cable guy is among Jim Carrey's best films. An underrated masterpiece.
I just wanted to hang out, NO BIG DEAL!
@@theaccursedj.e.2723 don't dig too deep, or you'll get burned by the molten lava
That speech that predicts the state of technology today...
@@mistreviews But I don't have a friend in Vietnam to play Mortal Kombat with. 😭
Two-Face was the Joker clone in this movie.
I always saw this as Jim Carrey playing Jim Carrey dressed as the Riddler.
Glad I wasn't the only one, the two face in this film was so poorly done, he was Jack Nicholson Joker-Lite. They did Tommy Lee Jones dirty by giving him this poorly written role. Should've just keep the Riddler as the only villain if they didn't know how to fit Two Face in the film.
@@jiujitsusilencer8533 Actually Tommy's portrayal could have been very good, but was ultimately his fault. He couldn't stand Jim Carrey and instead of trying to portray a good two face, he just spent the entire movie trying to out Jim Carrey Jim Carrey. Which went about as well as you'd think. Nobody does that. Two Face's introduction in the movie is about the best we get out of Tommy in his portrayal and even in the later half of that he starts acting Joker-like. When you understand the context of why he portrays two face in this way it's blatantly obvious Tommy was just acting entirely out of pettiness. Two Face is a character that hasn't been particularly portrayed well in movies and he had the opportunity to do to make this movie stand out but his ego made it so the person he disliked and was mocking became the most notable thing about it.
Jim Carrey as the Riddler is the last memory I have of my grandmother on my dad's side. She took me to see this movie back when it came out, And so his role as the Riddler will always hold a special place in my heart. I'm not sure I would ever call it objectively "good" but my memory of my grandmother taking me to see the movie will always override the public's perception, and even my own adult perception of his portrayal as the Riddler.
For me yes
I love his off the wall energy,for me The Riddler is someone that enjoys testing the Batman. Someone who wants a being who can test his intellect
Having the ego of always wanting to prove that he's superior,and I agree that Carrey brings his own unique twist on this character
Plus it helps that I love a bit of camp in my Batman villains
The biggest mistake in this movie - well, one of the biggest - was hinting that Edward Nygma was homosexual, albeit in a very asexual way. Roger Ebert claimed to pick up on a lot of gay subtext while watching BATMAN FOREVER, although he attributed this primarily to the way Batman and Robin dressed. Even so, Nygma seemed to heavily (if codedly) flirt with both Bruce and Two-Face, and at his launch party he seems very uninterested in Sugar, squiring her around only to "prove" his heterosexuality. There was a scene filmed but ultimately cut of the Riddler injecting a bound Chase Meridian with a sleeping potion through her neck, in an almost vampiric way, and my guess is that it was cut because Schumacher felt it clashed with the film's otherwise homoerotic flavor. I don't think I'm imagining any of this, because I remember even at the time hearing a lot of "These characters are gay!" jokes.
Batman Forever will always have a place in my heart. Watched it in theaters 3 times as a 6-year-old and a big Batman fan. This movie was the 90s for me.
Your video diversity is the best around and it’s crazy how it’s mostly stuff I love! Keep it up man love the videos
I hate riddles and other such nonsense.....but also loved this video!!! It's so good to hear the praise that I 100% believe this role deserved. Granted I'm biased, I grew up on this movie and it was always my favourite. But it's an amazing portrayal of a character who has so much to offer. Personally I don't think he's very comparable to the Joker here. And I absolutely love the scene where he's trying out different costumes and names, that's freaking brilliant!! Cz you know, they all must have done that at some point, but watching him do it just fits the character so well! Thank you for this video and can't wait for one about Robin ❤️
6:31
Alfred is knocked out BUT still aware (and polite) enough to move the tray out of the Riddler's way on the floor.
The Riddler is one of my favorite Jim Carrey performances top 5 early along with The Mask, Eternal Sunshine, and the Sonic movies.
He did his thing as Riddler. I enjoyed him as a kid. Most of his movies in the 90's I enjoyed as a kid. But looking back on it now? I think he would have made an awesome Joker.
Great new video, I thought Jim Carrey in Batman Forever. played a brilliant Ridder. also I would love you to cover Robin next please. :)
The great thing about Gorshin's Riddler is that he could flip from grimly plotting any amount of mayhem (and even death), to insane goofiness. Carrey's Riddler doesn't have that range (even when plotting any amount of etc.)
Touching on your point about his intelligence. I think I remember him saying he uses that knowledge for his own morbid curiosity (sexual secrets) and stealing bank information and such. Definitely not a huge plot point but it's kinda there.
The Fandom: “I hate this Batman character interpretation”…. Vee: “Well, what if they dont suck”
Finally this movie and riddler getting some recognition.
My love for this movie will last forever.
I will say that this version of riddler was not only my first introduction to him as a kid but also to Jim Carry. Hell, while not the first (cartoon versions beat it out) it was still one of the earliest batman's I ever saw
Great video man, thanks for sharing with us!
The Riddler has been my favorite Batman villain as long as I can remember. And not only do I agree with everything you have said here, but it's what I have been saying since the movie came out. Bravo, you get it!!!
This was a interesting analysis of Jim Carrey's take on the Riddler
I think Jim Carrey's Riddle was pretty good ( Little over the top but pretty good ). The one difference between that version and the 60s version is that in Batman Forever it shows how Edward became the Riddle while the 60s version been thrust into the Batman series without ( ! ) .
We didn't get any villain's backstory in the old series. They were already established.
Growing up with the Michael Keaton Batman’s and then seeing batman returns I remember being let down by how cartoon like this verdant and the next felt. We loved the gritty batman and it wasn’t till the animated series did we feel it again.
He’s the reason Batman Forever is my favorite. He excelled in this role. And it’s still #releasetheschumachercut
1.) first batman villian i was introduced to and always the GOAT
2.) glad you didn't quit
I love your Batman videos. Do you think there’s any chance you’d do a video about Burton’s cancelled third Batman movie? There’s a good bit of ideas and casting choices that could give you an idea on what could’ve been done had it gone further to production
I count Jim Carrey as one of the best live action Riddlers on television.
For me I just find Jim Carrey's portrayal to be very fitting, in-fact his take on The Riddler is exactly what I'd expect
From what I have seen of Jim Carrey's performances, I feel like Paul Dano's Riddler possesses some of that.
To be fair there doesn’t seem to be a way that the Riddler can be portrayed without someone saying it isn’t the correct interpretation. If you go classic, “he’s too much like the Joker”, if you go modern, “he’s nothing like the original”.
Funny they say that, since Joker is not that much like the original. The movies always exaggerate what the Joker really is. And that is partially the reason why so many people overrate the character these days including the comic book writers themselves.
Joker is only a guy who is obssessed with the fact that Batman has managed to keep himself somewhat sane and working for the good of the city, while himself completely fell to the dark side. His whole character is about trying to paint Batman black, through whatever means necessary. There was never any need to exaggerate on the dose and have him become the biggest villain Batman ever had, specially because Batman has villains that much deserve this post, villains like Ras Al'Ghul, Hugo Strange(who wants to fully understand him to the point of training to become similar to Batman himself), Hush. All villains that have actual qualities that would make for better rivals.
I watched this as a 10 yo kid in theatres because I loved Jim Carrey. I can still watch it because of Jim. My young kids now watch it over and over because I introduced them to Carrey, in the mask and ace Ventura, and now recognise him in all his glory in this movie. Forget Batman, the Riddler is the reason they love this movie.
I love Jim Carrey's Riddler. He's my favorite Riddler
He was the best part of that movie by far!
I have a feeling Vee’s perfect interpretation of Riddler is either Gotham or the Arkham series
Vee, you are one of my favorite UA-camrs!
I think Bob Kane and Bill Finger intended for the Riddler (who first appeared in the late 1940s) to be what the Joker eventually became: a man who was extremely intelligent and completely psychotic at the same time. Until the late '80s, in the wake of THE KILLING JOKE and Jack Nicholson's portrayal in Tim Burton's movie, the Joker was usually portrayed as only one of those at a time, with the emphasis usually on "psychotic." It's worth noting, though, that in 1940, in his very first Batman story, the Joker was technically not psychotic, since he was a jewel thief with a rational modus operandi, although the murders he committed were completely gratuitous. And the early '40s Joker is also implied to be intelligent enough to have created his smile toxin on his own, which he injects into the bloodstreams of his sleeping victims.
The Riddler, meanwhile, has shifted more or less in the opposite direction, going from "lunatic" to "genius" in a way that made his character more serious but (in contrast to the Joker) less grotesque. In fact, one could argue that it was the Riddler, not the Joker, who ultimately set the template for Gotham City's rogues gallery, since most of the modern villains tend to be both brainy and relatively serious. I'd say that the Joker, Harley Quinn, and the Mad Hatter are the only three villains you can still get away with portraying as silly or goofy. (Okay, maybe the Ventriloquist too.)
It isn't Tim Burton's movie, dumbass. He didn't write it.
Therefore it is NOT his movie.
I just realized that the glasses Edward wears when he's still working for Wayne enterprises are similar to what Paul wire for the batman
I always loved Carrey's performance as Riddler.......I actually think Carrey is a very underrated actor. I personally loved Dano as the Riddler in The Batman as well..I know it's a very different version, but it was great nonetheless.
I wouldn't call Jim Carrey underrated. A lot of people know him and he has in several famous films so, definitely not underrated
@@WaltDevil060 I mean this performance in particular
I just want to say that compared to the next movie in the series, this is a masterpiece. Val Kilmer and Jim Carrey were both great despite the criticism.
Jim Carrey made it into a small category with Robin Williams and Jack Black where they just have their own way of story telling. They all do it differently but it's of the same spirit.
12:11 Another prefect example of the hero worship turned villain in my eyes that was missed is Syndrome. Crazy that this trope has become so popular.
i forgot drew Barrymore was in batman forever, she was criminally underused in this movie.
Well they say Tommy Lee Jones was no fan. I just think he bought his own unique energy to the character.
I have to assume that Jones meant Carrey's "buffoonery" in his filmography up to that point and not specifically on set. Otherwise it makes little sense considering the movie he was in and Jones performance in the film being even more clownish.
@@happninmojo I heard a theory that Jones was smarting that his Ty Cobb movie got outdone by I think _Dumb and Dumber_ and now he was,working with the star of that movie.
You nailed it, Jim Carrey is doing his take on Frank Gorshin and in that regard, he absolutely kills it. This movie doesn't hold up that well today, but Jim Carrey as the Riddler was the best part.
yeah i think people forgot that WB hired schumacher to go back to the 60s/ Adam West ish era after Batman returns as they felt it was too Dark and wanted to go back to being.....dun dun dun...campy as hell.
It was awful. What he was going for and what we got were two different things. Mid 90s Jim Carry had one setting, goofy clown baby.
@Joe I'll take this over gimp-suit leather Riddler any day.
@@heelturnsfaceyou’re definitely in the minority pal 😂
Looking back Carrey did a good job with the role. Comparing Joker & Riddler is natural as the 2 have a lot in common. Even when making plans in BTAS Joker said a plan was too much like the Riddler
The answer to that is a resounding "Yes!". He brought The Riddler to life. The original Batman show Riddler was good but Jim made him even better and funny
Man Jim Carey nailed it as the riddler
An obsessed nerd with a Mack for subliminal messages sent as riddles with a dash of cookiness!
I remember hearing that Robin Williams was considered for the role of the Riddler. Wonder how that would turned out.
He would of hung for it. Lol
Badly, is my guess.
Over the top, like Carrey’s.
If he had a great director in his corner, like Christopher Nolan, he could have been great. He was wonderful in Insomnia and One Hour Photo the same year.
Assballsy tbh
I always loved Jim Carrey as the Riddler in this. It's Tommy Lee Jones that always bugged me.
If Tim Burton would have been kept on as the Director for the 3rd film Billy Dee Williams would have been in Tommy Lee Jones' place. I heard at the end of the 1st Batman in the sewer when Catwoman makes out with Max Shreck and the electric cable that was supposed to be Harvey Dent who would then be burned and become Two Face in the 3rd film. Would have loved to see that.
I love how you present your arguments. No matter if I agree or not, you present them in a way that can be respected. That being said, I have a new appreciation for this take on The Riddler. Never thought about him as a take on Frank Gorshin. I see that now
The Arkham games Riddler and the Gotham Riddler tie for best Riddler for me.
Same!
Gotham did such a great job with the villains
He's the reason the riddler is my favourite batman villain.
Excellent take. Batman Forever has been unjustly dragged down by Batman & Robin (which isn't even that bad imo). Though I've seen a lot of people reflect fondly on Carrey's Riddler after the bland interpretation we got in The Batman. Still, in live action we've had nothing as definitive as Gorshin's Riddler but I'm okay with that.
What a shit take through this entire paragraph…
@@od4407 lmao you can’t even read a couple of sentences
@@SlashManEXE What? You literally had a terrible take and your response is I can’t even read a couple of sentences? L.
@@od4407 Misusing the term “literally” isn’t helping your case that you can’t read. Which part of the big scary paragraph offended your delicate sensibilities?
@@SlashManEXE No it’s pretty literal. It was a shit take.
Anyone who says Batman & Robin isn’t even that bad has a shit take, period. And giving the newest Riddler iteration a bland description is another shit take…hence the literal shit
I find it funny how the police and news call him The Riddler instead of The Guesser.
You made a really great point. You made me think, haha. Thank you for sharing.
I have made the frank gorshin comparison many times cause to me Joel made Batman forever like he was saying to the viewers not to forget about the 60’s series and movie cause despite the riddler being a modernized version of their riddler flying Greyson’s uniform was Burt ward’s version of the robin suit and dick actually said “holy rusted metal Batman” and Burt had holy phrases on the show and in the movie most people think Batman and robin was Joel’s love letter to the 60’s but nothing in that movie shows it like Batman forever does
He was perfect for the role and did great
I've always thought a good Riddler should tread the line between serious and silly. He definitely needs to present himself as genuinely calm, composed, and arrogant, but occasional jokes or lapses into bouts of manic glee when a plan is succeeding would fit given his psychosis.
One thing about Carrey's Riddler that always confused me is why they gave him the BTAS Mad Hatter origin (troubled former employee of Wayne Enterprises who snaps and was working on a project that involves manipulating the human brain)
He played the role so good. Almost perfect.
I've read somewhere that Batman Forever and the sequel Batman and Robin were very much modeled on the 1960's TV show. All around. It's what they wanted to do instead of the darker Tim Burton stuff and felt it would appeal to kids more.
Better question is: Is Tommy Lee Jones a good Two Face?
Spoiler Alert: No
Sadly it was down to the writing because I think Jones would have been an excellent Two Face in a much better written movie
I am definitely more insulted by what they did to Two Face over what they did to the Riddler. I think that being goofy and over the top can work with the Riddler, it doesn’t work for Two Face who is usually portrayed as a very dark and tragic villain, being goofy and over the top doesn’t work for a villain like Two Face. It is also why it didn’t work when they had Mr Freeze spout off those ice puns while keeping the tragic backstory with his wife that Batman the Animated Series created and so it made it so Mr Freeze fails in two different ways.
He actually made a video on that matter
ua-cam.com/video/gU-1IwyRVbs/v-deo.html
@@morganyoung3557 I agree, making Two-Face more goofy and over the top is a pretty terrible idea mostly because of how in most Batman related media, what happens to Harvey Dent still haunts Bruce because Harvey was a pretty upstanding person and good friend of his who fell to crime.
Well..😏
10:49 *In this scene they are both wearing the same suit*
Great analysis of this movie's Riddler.
Great video Vee!
👍
He did a great job. I still can’t believe how good he was. And how he is overlooked as one of the best Batman villains.
Are you going to do a video for That 90’s Show?
my favorite version of the riddler is from the books, when he finally becomes a detective and works for the pd, i find this to be the most satisfying version, mainly because he isn't trying to be like a watered down joker, and hyper fixates on solving crimes.
I really love Jim Carey in this film because of one single joke that he clearly just tossed in there.
He walks onscreen with the jacket that has the flashing question marks and asks Nicole Kidman,"You like the jacket? It keeps me safe while I'm jogging at night." 😂😂😂
I liked Jim Carrey as the riddler from my childhood.
Of course he was and always is! Childhood favorite
I would say the first use of the overlooked nerdy villain with glasses who turns bad actually comes from Michelle Pfeiffer’s Catwoman in Batman Returns; she’s the blueprint for the trope, and it was fleshed out and solidified with Jim’s Riddler
Yes, but it was Riddler who had the "obsessed with the main character" thing first.
Selina might have crushed on Bruce Wayne a bit, but she didn't have pictures of him all over her wall.
Batman forever is basically the gritty reboot of the adam west batman series. Its darker...but just as outrageous.
"I hate riddles. And other such nonsense."
I loved his interpretation of The Riddler
My personal favorite Riddler is the one from Gotham and there's a lot of clear inspiration for Jim Carrey's take on the character
Just the way he moves, and his mannerisms. Also the way he moves his face
He was certainly entertaining that's for sure
Damn Vee you are doing A LOT of heavy lifting for this movie lol
Jim Carrey was just playing Jim Carrey as he do in most of his comedies. And don't get me wrong, he was the best part of that movie, very entertaining and he understood the mission: he knew he was in a comedy. But the only thing that made me think he was the Riddler was his suit.
Lookin forward to the batman forever Robin review Vee
The heart and soul of the movie! He is my favourite live action Riddler with the Gotham version in number 2 and the one from 60's TV show in number 3.
I always loved Jim Carrey as the Riddler and definitely thought of him as a continuation of the 60's series. Both of the Joel Shumacher Batman films seemed to fit more with the series than Tim Burton's first two. I would love to see Robin Williams' take on the character, I heard he was considered for the role of the Riddler after he got sort of screwed out of the Joker role in the 1989 Batman after Jack Nicholson turned down the role and then changed his mind.
Clicked as soon as I read Jim Carrey
Carrey’s Riddler is a labor of love by him where you can see the ziny and quirky that tightly follows the line of crazy and derangement
I just want to say I loved both Batman Forever and Batman and Robin. I think both movies got unnecessarily dunked on. But my favorite Batman is the one you mentioned the Adam West Batman. If you look at the two movies as a sequel to the 1960’s film they really do work. Frank Gorshin really played the Riddler as unhinged and his replacement John Astin would go on to play Gomez Adams. What can I say Carrie did a great Riddler and his movie was fine for someone who liked the comedy bat show.
YES! I absolutely loved this as a kid. He totally nailed it. I was so mad about the new version which was awfulllllll
I don't really care for the character but Jim's version and the one from Gotham are ones I actually enjoy
Da Bomb at the riddler! Dude nailed his personality in every way! 5:12
I like your take on the whole "embracing your own absurdity" take of the character
I haven't seen this movie since we had to throw out our VHS player, man I need to watch it again
He did a good job channeling Frank Gorshin's Riddler at least, yeah.
Carrey and Jones are the saving grace of Batman Forever.
They perfectly portray Schumacher's vision of the Batman world (flawed as it may well be) and are great callbacks to the campy style of the tv series.
Just saying I'm really enjoying your videos. Thanks!