What Could Have Been: Tim Burton's Batman Forever
Вставка
- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
- Taking a look at what Tim Burton's Batman 3 would have been like had he returned to direct.
⏱️TIMESTAMPS⏱️
0:00 Intro
0:28 Batman 89
0:56 Batman Returns
1:14 McDonalds
3:35 Catwoman
4:13 Bat Nipples
4:30 Two Face
5:22 The Riddler
7:19 Robin
8:09 Dr. Chase Meridian
8:36 Michael Keaton
9:40 The Plot
10:39 Jim Carrey Tommy Lee Feud
10:58 The Schumacher Cut
13:42 Christopher Nolan
🔴 Subscribe for more videos just like this: shorturl.at/atCD9
#batman #timburton #batmanforever - Фільми й анімація
Shoutout to the very talented E.J. Tangonan, who designed the incredible poster used in the thumbnail. You can find and follow him here: patreon.com/ejtangonan
Who are the stars?
Splash bye
I like batman returns I didn't like forever or batman and Robin.
What if Tim Burton had directed The Lost Boys...?
I say the all the time
I love how Tommy Lee told Jim Carey that he couldn’t “sanction his baffoonery” yet Tommy lees take on two face was the silliest stupidest thing he’s EVER done😂
🤣 I always thought that Tommy Lee saw Jim Carrey's interpretation of the Riddler and tried to copy him with a flare of Romero's Joker. Somehow he made the Riddler look more realistic 😅🤣😂
@@jetetarroI thought both actors were trying to just “out-Joker” each other the whole movie. Regardless of anything else, Jim Carrey wearing that nut hugging sequined onesy with the question marks all over it was the most unforgivable sin of that entire movie. It was way worse than the nipples on the Batsuit.
Agreed n Considering how dark 2face is ON EVERY OTHER MEDIA
@@442mintyit always bothered me that TLJ/Two-face is perfectly burnt right down the middle. I mean perfect symmetry from head to toe.
That and Under Siege 😂
Micheal Keaton is such a classy/cool dude. The fact that he popped his head in a movie theater to watch Batman forever only to realize he made the right choice is such a baller move.
.....And yet choose to appear in Morbius.
@@marshallw1902 I mean a paychecks a paycheck bro lmaoo
Not sure if he actually saw the Batman films he *was* in, he watches very few movies.
Burton’s Batman also inspired the art style of the Animated Series which till today remains the greatest animated show of all time.
2nd greatest. The Simpsons number 1
My favorite is futurama personally, but BTAS is up there, and def my favorite Batman adaptation
spectacular spider-man is pretty great
SpongeBob
star wars the clone wars
Tim Burton and Batman Returns was criminally under appreciated at that time
Not at all related to Batman- I just wanted to say that it's nice to find another LoD fan in the wild
Batman Returns still kinda is
Thinking about Pfieffer's return, and William's potential as the Riddler is so unfortunate. Burton's third film could've been phenomenal
I blame McDonald's.
If Robin Williams were cast as the Riddler film, two things could've happened:
1. He'd play the Riddler really wacky and silly (like Jim Carrey), which is what the studio wanted. It would've made a lot of money, but we'd all be complaining about how cheesy / lame the movie was, just the same as we're complaining now about the Batman Forever that we actually got.
2. He'd play the Riddler dark and disturbing, like his character in One Hour Photo. Critics would like it, but audiences would be disappointed. All the parents would say it's too scary / weird, and kids would say the character was boring. Even people who like dark movies would be disappointed because they don't want to see Robin Williams play a disturbing character. Maybe 25+ years later, a few people would realize it was actually good.
@@userman44- Too true! 🙄 I swear, it feels like the general public doesn't seem to be mature enough to handle certain entertainment, and so some movies take a while for a positive consensus to "cook" before folks realize what we were given was incredible from the start.
A lot of people have criticized movies like Man of Steel ("it was too dark" blah blah blah) but just LOOK at how cringe, mediocre or cash-grabby MOST of the Superhero movies have felt, outside of content like that!
There's a reason movies like MoS or "Joker" or that 1st Wonder Woman film, felt so MATURE & like they really treated the character w/respect, versus well... everything else. lol
The Internet likes to make up that Burton was going to title it "Batman Continues" with Pfeiffer returning as Catwoman is all made up. The original writers for the then titled "Batman III", Lee, and Janet Scott Batchler were hired AFTER Burton left to work with Schumacher, and if you read their script, or listen to their interviews, they would tell you there was no Catwoman returning, and becoming a anti-hero, no love triangle plot with Chase, or anything like that. Meaning, Dr. Chase Meridian was a character created for Schumacher's Batman. It was their idea of having Robin, and Schumacher for adding Two Face as they originally just wanted The Riddler. (With Tommy Lee Jones being Schumacher's casting choice.)
However, the closest with Burton's involvement was the Catwoman spin-off film, and unlike Burton's Batman 3, there's actually a script written by Daniel Waters in 1995, and you can find it online to read, which begins with Selina taken to the hospital after the climax of Batman Returns and having setting away from Gotham. Further showing that Selina's involvement in Batman 3 was gossip myths from fans on the internet.
@@brandonspain12345 very interesting, thanks I'll check that out
Batman Returns is hands down my favorite live action Batman film. It’s like sitting down and having the best fever dream ever.
Haha it’s definitely a trip
Agreed
I was a kid growing up at this time. Keaton I was like 9 or 10 . Its really about the times. we cant change that.
@@Bulletsandblockbusters- hey really loving your channel. Can I ask a question? I do comic movie history research for my channel too, and I've been trying to track something down. Have you ever heard that the "Batmobile driving up the wall" sequence in Batman Forever was originally conceived for Batman Returns, but was cut (and thus replaced w/the Batmissile sequence), and it was actually Schumacher's team re-using that previously developed concept for BF, not that they 'created' the concept, as many critics blame them for doing such a corny idea. Have you ever ran across this in your research? I found this in an interview yrs ago and haven't been able to relocate it - you do amazing work so I thought I'd give it a try to ask you
I still laugh when Tim Burton says "I upset McDonald's"
Batman returns is such a banger. Very surprised it wasn’t well received at the time, both of my parents and grand parents made sure to show it to me when I was young.
Great movie, indeed!
Yeah it was scary when it came out and I was in kindergarten or whatever but i was and am still glad my parents let me watch it
FWIW, Batman Returns was the highest grossing movie - BY FAR - of the 1992 box office. So whatever WB says about it not performing well is a load of bs. It's just when it was time for the third movie, "theaters" weren't doing well due to home VHS rental trends, and actors demands for better compensation were cutting into profits, and so WB thought they would make more money on toys and licensing than the movie itself if they played their cards right, and that's why the 3rd movie was actually just a 1.75 hr commercial for action figures.
My parents let me watch Friday the 13th The Final Chapter when I was like 5. And of course, I saw both Tim Burton Batman films. Tim Burton's were the best out of all of them.
@@Ben_Lorentz Yeah, parents turned into a bunch of bitches in the 90's. McDonalds Crying about Batman Returns being too dark, because some parents had a stick up their ass. Give me a break. By parents took me to see it and I was 10 years old at the time. I remember when they used to show Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street and all the greats on the standard/non-cable channels, every Halloween.
Keaton and Pfeiffer's chemistry in Returns was impeccable and it's a damn shame they didn't keep Burton to finish up the trilogy and give this series the proper conclusion it deserved.
Michelle Pfeiffer? THAT White Gold?
@@CassandrashadowcassMorrisonwhat
Uptown funk lyric
All the actors and actresses Keaton used were perfect for their role.
@@Fade2Dark keaton? You mean Burton?
I believe that Billy Dee Williams would have have made a great Two Face and it would have been nice to have seen Robin Williams play the Riddler.
Robin Williams as the riddler would have made me shit out of laugh
@@jdcp8976 whatever that means
He was able to have a bit part as Two-Face in the Lego Batman movie.
He's black, so the acid won't stand out on his face as much.
@jdcp8976 We know Robin for making us laugh, but many forget that he was an excellent dramatic actor as well, and has even had some roles where he was downright terrifying. With him balancing those, he would've fit Burton's Riddler like a glove.
the tone and atmosphere of Tim's Batman is unmatched, when you re-watch those 2 films you're transported to that exact time and place. That dark, gritty atmosphere coupled with the brilliant soundtrack, Gotham felt truly alive, getting chills just thinking about it
An absolutely terrifying Robin Williams Riddler could have led to what super hero flicks need now: stronger horror elements.
If I could go to another universe and see any movie that never was… Tim Burton’s Batman Forever would be the movie
Me too
It would not have been called batman forever. Burton hated the name.
Theres a universe where Heath Ledger didn’t die & you wanna go to the one with Tim Burton’s Batman Forever lol.
Theres a universe where Chadwick Boseman didn’t die
Theres a universe where Ezra Miller wasn’t cast as The Flash
Theres a universe where Christian Bale Dark Knight series was the beginning of the DCEU & Bale and Cavill did Batman v Superman
All these possibilities lol
@@realjohnloveyeah but those have giant telepathic spiders and 7 9/11's
It would certainly be a lot less gayer.
Tim burton was seriously ahead of the superhero game! His dark elements would have passed in modern days based on the dark tone of the recent Batman films.
True look how MCU movies became so Disney owes Tim Burton's Batman alot more credit than what's given.
Agreed
Burton is a true director of his craft and understands the concepts and formulas to story telling.
Idk man, people now of days only enjoy one liners and a cheap immature joke every minute.
I'd love to see him either do a Batman Beyond Movie with Michael Keaton as Old Bruce Wayne, or a Red Hood Movie.
Just watched Batman Forever a few weeks ago. It's still an entertaining fun movie with an underrated performance by Val Kilmer.
💯
It was great to see Michael Keaton back as Batman in the flash! He really lifted the movie!
Except in The Flash that Burton suit looked god awful because clearly the studio, director or who ever didn't grasp that the Burton Batsuit was NOT meant to ever actually be shown fully in day or bright lighting. that suit was designed for the shadows so it ended up looking awful
Absolutely
I would’ve never thought Robin Williams was considered to be the Riddler, I’m so mad that never came to be. It probably could’ve been the one of the biggest highlights his career.
Robin Williams did not even know about his greatest accomplishment. My Mother grew up during the Great Depression. She did not laugh much. She had seen Robin Williams on tv in Mork & Mindy commercials, but did not know who he was. Years pass. One night she is babysitting some kids, and they are astonished to learn that she does not watch movies, so they sat her down and made her watch Mrs Doubtfire. My Mom came home that night actually bubbling about how good he had been. Good job Mr Williams. Good job.
im sure he wouldv been good too. but i absolutely love jim carrey in that movie. he is the only one who is good in it.
I'm kinda glad it didn't happen. He would have made a much better Joker, I don't think his style translates well to Riddler - mind you, it would have been bettery than Carrey's - or maybe Carrey's would have been better in a less silly movie. I definitely could have done without the body-hugging onsie pajamas.
YEah, considering his image in the 90s was so family friendly, but then you see Insomnia (directed by Christopher Nolan, BTW) and One Hour Hpoto, and you realise he can do sinister and unnerving when he wants to.
I would have liked to see Robin Williams as Mad Hatter with a great Alice in Wonderland backdrop
It's MINDBLOWING that people don't like Batman Returns. It's literally the best of the four. My god.
Fax
McDonalds and Karen's thought it was too scary and gross for kids
@@thisspaceforrent5737 Cobblepot was great as part of the story from my viewing. It really gives a deeper look into the character that is Gotham City. How the citizens act there, who they vote for, the opinions they had.
Catwoman and Cobblepot!! Ointment all around!!!!
There is so much attention to detail, style, unique expressionist photography. People wanted a brainless blockbuster and he gave them well-crafted art.
Best out of four? It is the BEST of ALL!
Williams subtle impression of Nicholson was amazing
Batman Returns was amazing ! As a kid I was fascinated and as an adult I love the story even more!
Robin Williams spouting out riddles the way he does standup would have been great to see!
Robin Williams would have played the Riddler just like he played all his other roles: terribly.
@@junglemoose2164 You're obviously ignorant. Insomnia, Bicentennial Man, What Dreams May Come, Good Will Hunting, The Bird Cage, Dead Poets Society.
@@DrewTroxone hour photo is one of his best
@@DrewTrox It’s not ignorance at all. I have good taste.
@@junglemoose2164 Ah, so you're just an asshole. Got it.
Not only is Batman Returns my favorite Batman movie, it’s also one of my favorite Christmas movies. I loved the tone and the performances and score are amazing. I also think Daniel Waters the screenwriter of Returns doesn’t get enough credit. It’s funny and dark, which still holds up today. Like his Heathers script.
Several people have said recently that they thought Catwoman died in _Batman Returns._
I remember an ending in one of the episodes of the 1960s Batman where Catwoman leaps into the water and disappears. So figured it was similar.
@@sandal_thong8631 she literally pops her head up at the end of the movie when they are showing the bat signal
Michael Keaton was the best Batman ever. It was amazing seeing him reprise the role one more time in the Flash movie.
Kevin Conroy is the best Batman ever!
We can like both legends lol@@thebag-lt6wv
@@thebag-lt6wv Conroy for animated. Bale for live action. In my opinion.
@@lfrankowhalf right....Keaton/Conroy
@@lfrankowbale was an amazing Bruce Wayne but meh Batman
Tim was lightyears ahead of the times. Even with the age I would love to see Tim take on Batman and Nick Cage Superman in a single movie .
I know I said this in the other video, but I love the idea of Tim Burton directing his third film now, as a send off to Keatons Batman, but also a deep exploration to his origins as a character. Plus, it'd be great to see Burtons vision of Gotham again: dark, yes, but also gothic, pulpy and fun and imaginative. Nowadays, superhero movies are dark, but also bland and realistic. Where's the wonder? And imagination? That's what Tim Burton brought: a perfect balance of tone to the story.... It doesn't seem like Burtons interested, but it's fun to think about. With a great script, it could be the next Top Gun Maverick kind of movie!
Agreed! His take on Gotham was so unique. It still holds up.
While Keaton is in better acting shape than ever now, I'm not so confident about Burton. His recent offerings have been decidedly hit-and-miss.
@@thecandlemaker1329 Couldn't agree more. If we are truly being honest, I don't know if he's made a good movie since the late 90's. I guess Frankenweenie, Corpse Bride and Sweeney Todd aren't so bad, but it's been decidedly a bunch of misses.
@@thecandlemaker1329 I'll never be more disappointed in a movie then Burtons 'Alice in wonderland' films. Who else could bring the insanity and nonsensical world of wonderland to life better than Burton? Yet he somehow made Wonderland the most tame and sensical it has ever been. I lost all faith in Burton after those movies.
Wouldn't draw the kind of audience nescessary due to Batman dilution.
Tim Burtons vision of Gotham and Batman was amazing. I remember seeing them when i was a kid and being enchanted. The next one was just ok.
Tim Burton’s Gotham is my favourite version of Gotham City.
I've heard from a few sources that the reason Tommy Lee Jones hammed it up so much was because he originally thought he was going to be playing The Riddler! He was trying to outshine Jim Carey because he got the role TLJ wanted and apparently was incredibly difficult with Jim on set, going so far as to tell him he hated him and outright ignoring him most of the time.
I’m gonna get a tattoo that reads “Batman Continues.” And write that down in my friends yearbook
Batman 89 was dark and violent also. Not sure why Returns caught so much backlash. Also I really wanted to see Billy Dee Williams as two face. That would have been so cool and smooth.
Apparently Bob Kane who "created" Batman, didn't want a person of color playing Two-Face. Man, he would have killed it as Two-Face!!!
'Batman' didn't have a storyline about killing babies or people getting their faces slashed for a comedy moment.. but the real problem was the silly, childish stuff in 'Returns' like the remote control stuff and the rubber duck Penguin Mobile. Too dark + Too childish = flop
@@stephcarlofc Thank you for those sarcastic quotes, Kane deserves that and then some.
@cormano64 Absolutely. He also is the reason why Marlon Wayans didn't portray Robin because he felt like a white person should play Robin. Marlon Wayans would have killed it as Robin. Golden opportunity wasted. Sucks that Bill Finger was long dead before he got his just due!! That documentary on Hulu about him was great and sad at the same time. I really think Bob Kane really stole the idea of Batman from Bill Finger!!
Batman 89 had a cop shot and killed, Jack Palance shot several times in his chair as the Joker laughs, Joker electrocutes someone to a crisp, Joker poisoned products that people used and died and gassed people to death. Joker also kills someone by throwing a feather into their neck/throat. Plenty of violence and dark material. I love it but again Batman Returns gets the cold shoulder.
I absolutely love Tim Burton's early stuff, and Batman 89' is by far my favorite Batman movie, but Batman Forever also has a special place in my heart. I'm glad it exists.
BF was the first film I saw in theaters and flawed as it is does still benefit from that, I love the comics Two-Face and Riddler but still mostly like the film Riddler as at least guilty pleasure.
People didn't like Batman Returns? What!? It's the best out of all the originals. I always wished we would have had a third. Michelle was also the best Catwoman hands down. I would've loved to see her own movie.
Dreadful
She was very good with that whip, and she literally looks like a cat woman.
Batman Returns is probably the best Batman movie, in my opinion. The Christopher Nolan Movies are great, don't get me wrong, but the darkness that Tim Burton brought to it just can't be beat, in my opinion.
@@Mattipedersen I 100% agree. Growing up everyone loved the movie and idk remember anyone giving any negative reviews. Also I think if Keaton and Pfeiffer would've returned for a 3rd movie it would've been even better. I bet they wouldn't have ended there either. We would've got a 4 and 5 as well.
Its a good Burton movie, pretty terrible Batman movie. Its a Batman movie where Batman is like the 3rd most important character in it.
Why hasn't Warner Bros made a Batman Beyond movie? Michael Keaton is the perfect age to play an old and beat-up Bruce Wayne.
They love to miss good oportunities
From where I'm standing, the backlash against Batman Returns seems to have been completely unwarranted. Was it dark? Sure. But was it that much more dark than Batman? Maybe the first film had a somewhat lighter tone in places, but it also took itself very seriously as it wrestled with Batman's trauma over his parents' death. It also had Joker falling into a vat of acid after having a bullet ricocheted through his face, after which he maimed and/or murdered right and left with electrocution, toxins, poison gas, etc. It doesn't seem that Batman Returns was that much more of a stretch, at least in terms of violence - but it did come at the very time when overreacting parents organizations were starting to attain a unprecedented power to censure material which supposedly was aimed at kids.
Burton should never have been kicked from the project.
Batman Returns is epic
known opinion.
its also a known opinion returns is unfavored by many more than 89. its like returns is darker but it also looks like a theatre farce with what penguin being in the government houses and trying to get shreck and others to do this and that. like joker is twisted funny but penguin is just "arghhh you stooge why cant you get it dang it doh doh doh"
so yea returns is like an adam sandler movie
The problem was, and still is to a certain extent, the character's still overshadowed by the toxic 60's TV show. The parents back in the early 90's had grown up with that, and that's what they wanted their kids to see, not a dark and dramatised version of the character.
I wouldn't say it was unwarranted. I saw it with a bunch of friends when I was in grad school in Galway, Ireland, and we had all gone into the theater full of anticipation. We all left the theater _heavily_ disappointed. It wasn't the dark tone; we had no problem with that. We thought the Penguin was a little over the top, but that wasn't the main problem either. It was the ending. The ending was just... stupid. I'm sorry, but an army of cybernetic, rocket-launching penguins was a bridge too far.
I think it only gets flack for being dark because of the McDonalds tie in. If not for that I don't think there would've been such a big backlash.
Gotta give Joel Schumacher credit. He apologized for essentially making a Batman movie that others and the studio wanted and not what he wanted. Not a lot of directors now days take ownership for bad movies but instead blame audiences.
To a large extent yes but I’m quite skeptical of the notion he wasn’t on board personally with B&R’s direction.
You’ve never seen Schumacher other films.
He did make the film he wanted. He had a sexual fetish, the studio didn’t want nipples on the batsuit that was Joel lol.
Joel is a bad director & that includes The Wiz. And I say that as a black person. The Wiz as a film stinks it just has a talented cast carrying the bad direction
He made an awful film, & it wasn’t his only one (hell, it wasn’t even his only terrible BATMAN film), but I wouldn’t say he’s a terrible director, just up & down at times.
Flatliners & Falling Down are good films. I didnt like Lost Boys all that much but it’s popular.
@@realjohnlove I have seen his other films and yes a lot of what was included in the films was something that he did and was a part of but if like the video mentioned he came in because the studio wanted him to make a lighter more family friendly oriented film . Joel wanted to explore darker themes to Batman’s character but had to make the film we got. At least he apologized and acknowledged what he did wrong. But I don’t hold totally accountable .
@@realjohnloveThe nipples on the suit was an odd choice for a kid's movie m. As was the choice to have close-up shots of butts and other body parts in the suits.
I remember seeing the 2nd movie with my parents in the theater when I was super young… even though it was more gruesome than the 1st, I still loved it!!
I'm not from America, we watched batman and batman returns as kids and that was great, nobody get any mental injures, the entourage and atmosphere of the film absolutely overwhelmed any negative effect of even the most violent scenes, we absolutely understood that we were watching a film that was as untethered to reality, as a theatrical production, it's the magic of Burton's films that contributes to it.
I'm 100% sure, that some "lion king" has done more mental damage to kids than Burton's Batman.
Same, and to be honest as kids we didn't understand many things about this movie(penguins darker intentions), but still, we enjoyed it without getting traumatized
In America we had small but very vocal and obnoxious "parental watchdog groups" that ruined things for everyone. The modern day equivalent is when you hear a story about everyone being outraged about something and it turns out to be just 12 people on Twitter, and people who you talk to in real life have no idea that whatever the controversy is even exists.
Kids used to be able to watch cartoons on free, over-the-air TV channels in the afternoons and Saturday mornings. Then these parents' groups demanded that all kids programming be educational and a bunch of other restrictions, so TV stations just gave up and eventually replaced this children's programming with news, and all the kids shows moved to cable networks.
Kids saw Robocop in the theater with their parents, kids saw Predator in the theater as well. My point is that kids saw alot of things that they probably shouldn't of when you were born in the 70's and grew up in the 80's. Even animated films for kids from the 80's which were rated G were very adult. The studio should of stuck with Tim Burton.
Facts!!💯🤙🏼 And let's not forget the slasher movies , Batman returns is epic!
Exactly WB shot themselves in the foot such morons
I distinctly remember TOYS made for Robocop as well as a Saturday morning CARTOON based off the movie. These "parents". 😂😅
@@vampirascoffin870 Yeah I remember my friends in 5th grade talking about seeing Nightmare on Elm Street and Friday the 13th movies. My Parents did let me watch Conan when I was pretty young. Thats how I got into the Masters of the Universe toys.
@@notursavior1861WOW talk about Irony and I always thought Batman much better superhero than Robocop.
As a kid, I absolutely loved Batman Returns and preferred it over '89 because it was darker and more gothic. It almost feels like a black & white movie with very little colour. Classic Tim Burton. As an adult, it still holds up and still my favourite from the original series of films. I haven't watched it since the 90's though, so must give it another look.
On top of that, in the current climate of prequels and sequels with aging characters/stars, there's no reason WB couldn't at least have a "look" at maybe giving Burton the opportunity to make his third and final film even after all these years. I'm sure Keaton and Pfeiffer would be down. It would just be a case of figuring the villain. It would certainly be an interesting approach and challenge.
I prefer Returns over Batman
You really should give it another look, if you haven’t seen it since the 90s. Batman Returns was darker in it’s own way, but not more gothic.
I'm 42 and remeber 89s hype and then the Returns hype train. I love both but prefer Returns. I don't get the hate and ev3n as a kid did t like forever shift away from the darker tone. I still have not seen forever or Batmans and Robin.
@@williamgunter4268 I remember Forever being tolerable but Batman and Robin was a complete joke.
I love both Batman 89, and Returns. Schumacher did OKAY with Forever but B+R was just too much a tryhard towards the campiness of the original show and came nowhere even remotely close to that. I blame more WB than Schumacher on that, since WB wanted it more “family friendly” at the time. I wouldn’t say Val Kilmer was the greatest Batman, far from it, but a better choice than Clooney, by far! They should’ve kept him in it for B+R. Carrey was GREAT as the Riddler and they did a great job with TLJ as TwoFace and he looked very much like the one from the animated series to me. Clooney and Arnie just ruined B+R for me and probably everyone else too.
It would’ve been sick to see a Burton trilogy
Robin Williams as the Riddler looks like it could have been really fun !
The score of Returns is a masterwork.
💯
Batman '89 was not even remotely a kid friendly film, the executives are to blame here, noone else. Such a shame.
Growing up in the 90's, I was always irritated toys were being advertised to me for R rated movies. Terminator, Robo-cop, etc. I wasnt allowed to see any of it, but I was supposed to be a part of the merch sales.
“Executives are to blame” a tale as old as time
@@zeroxwarrior Weird how the people who pay for things have a say in how those things are made. So very weird.
@@JDoe-gf5oz I mean you don’t have to look far to see how executive meddling mess up a lot properties in any media. Or how sequels get pumped when not warranted or changes to make things more “kid friendly” makes an franchise worse. Yeah they have the money so they make the rules but time and time again executives clearly have no artistic vision and only chase money. (not that they need to this is merely the nature of the beast)
What sucks even more is that if you look at some of Joel's other films, like Falling Down, A Time to Kill and Lost Boys, he could've done a serious Batman movie himself. But the executives most likely forced him to go a "kid-friendly" direction, and probably not wanting to get the boot like Burton, had to comply. Though, I don't have a clue how to justify the many questionable choices he made in the two movies, I will admit.
As a young boy in that time who watched the animated series and read the comics, I loved Batman and Batman Returns. I was heartbroken with what Batman movies became throughout the 90s.
Batman forever is not forgettable at all, it’s one of my favorite movies I like that a lot more than returns
I’m surprised everyone was so shocked Returns was a “dark” film, given 89 had several pretty disturbing scenes as well. For crying out loud, we get a lengthy shot of Joker’s lifeless body in the finale.
Even without social media people was still bitching lol I saw Batman returns in theatres I loved it!
@@dogpetdogso....and grow up 😒🍵...
I think it was just stupid, that’s why everyone hated it. Penguins with rocket launchers? Christ
@kyiclebeams worse than sharks with giant lasers.
Joker melts a woman’s face and turns her into a zombie. The woman later kills herself because of the physical and psychological pain. But yeah, Batman Returns was when things first started to get dark 😒
Would have been cool to see more of Michelle Pfeifer.
Yes! Without anything on!
@@michaelharrington75😂😂😂 meow 😋 yummy 😋 😅
I don't think I'd like having a new love interest, but if they brought back Vicky Vale and Michelle Pfeiffer, then that might have been something. So far they haven't done the Black Cat in the Spider-Man movies who doesn't care for Peter Parker, but seems only interested in him as Spider-Man. So this could have been similar, as well as Lois Lane loving Superman, but Lana Lang falling for Clark Kent.
Batman returns is a masterpiece. Forever is forgettable. Glad Nolan gave us magic in 3.
I remember watching Batman Returns on tv when I was a child. I was horrified! Now that I'm an adult. I've watched it again. It was still scary. Mainly due to the music.
Even though the actual Batman Forever is a guilty pleasure of mine, I do think it would’ve been awesome if Burton had directed it.
Val Kilmer bored the hell outta me.
Val looked good in the Batsuit but was a terrible Bruce Wayne
Yeah, maybe we could have avoided that neon crap.
Same here. It’s my favorite old school Batman movie.
@@markfroman738agreed he was the worst Bruce but I still enjoy them film tremendously.
Watching Flash all I could think was how unfair it was we never got a third Keaton movie.
Me too.
You all need to watch Burton Batman movies again and closely. Keaton basically played a supporting character in his own movies. There was no depth to Keaton's Bruce Wayne or Batman. It seems as if his character was written in as an after thought. Michael Keaton's appearance in the Flash was on par with the Tim Burton Movies.
@@88detourfacts
That Time Burton quote is gold.
I just watched from Batman to Batman Forever for the first time in I guess 25 years. I was surprised how well the first two movies stood the test of time, in fact I think I now as an adult like them even more than I did as a child. Batman Forever though was a chore, an absolute horrendous movie, I could barely get through the whole thing.
But here's the thing, as a kid I remember seeing the first 2 movies maybe once or twice, but I distinctly remember recording Batman Forever to VHS and watching it over and over and over. As a kid I really loved that shit, and Jim Carrey was in his prime. So despite me now, as an adult, hating this movie, I don't think it deserves the flack it gets at all. They made the first two movies for adults and they made the third movie for kids, as simple as that. Kid me loved it.
If you watch some episodes of the 66' Batman and straight after that put Forever on, I think the movie mimics the series quite well - Carrey's performance is really a lot like that of the series' Riddler.
Reddit is down the hall, to the left
@@__-wm9lu go outside
It's not that Batman Forever is a great kids movie; it's that the movie was released at a time when your love of Batman was at its peak. This same phenomenon occurred when Motley Crue released "Theatre of Pain." The album was kinda lame, but the band was so beloved at that time that their dedicated fan base didn't notice that most of the tracks sucked.
@@userman44 just watched it for the first time and loved it. Idgaf about batman, just a fun superhero movie which we don’t get with the Capeshit now.
As far as I'm concerned, BTAS and Mask of the Phantasm helped fill in the void left by the cancellation of Tim Burton's third Batman movie, as did Kevin Conroy's performance filling in for Michael Keaton's. Now all these years later, it feels like Keaton finally returning to play Batman again helps fill in the void left by Kevin's passing (RIP), even if it is just gonna be for the Flash movie now with all these DCU reboot plans. Maybe Tim and Keaton will be able to make a Batman Beyond movie after Beetlejuice 2?
Would be awesome!
🤞 🤞
Tim and Keaton doing Batman Beyond would be AMAZING! Totally confident in that idea
Having Keaton return out of desperation was an absolute stroke of genius, so I hope someone realizes this and they do something more with him. As many like to say, The Flash is a great Batman movie.
BTAS is like the greatest cartoon ever made. Hell, it might even be a better portrayal of the Batman mythos and tone than the actual comics.
Siskel nailed it when he said 'I liked it while I was watching it, and as soon as it was over, it didn't mean anything to me, and as the day's have gone on, it means even less if that's possible'. I felt the same
I loved Batman Returns. It’s still my fav Batman movie of all time even with the Nolan trilogy. I would’ve loved to have seen Keaton, Pfieffer and Dee Williams return and Robin Williams as The Riddler in Tim Burton’s version of the third movie. Also it’s such a shame we never got to hear Danny Elfman’s score for the third movie…
The novelization of Batman Forever showed how great the script was before it was lightened up. It begins with Harvey, Batman, and Gordon together right after the events of Returns taking on a far more serious story in tradition of the first two films.
Billy Dee Williams as Two Face
Robin Williams as Riddler
What a travesty these 2 beloved actors are never given the chance to be part of a masterpiece that could hv been.
Catwoman not getting her own film with Michelle is a bigger crime than anything else here honestly. She was gold as Catwoman, the best part of Batman Returns
Agreed! A script was written for Burton to direct. I'll do a video on it one day.
She was great but it's hard to see how her story could continue and not feel pretty underwhelming, anticlimactic. I've read that the planned film had her actually being amnesiac for most of it and then fighting a team of supervillains that posed as a city's team of superheroes, very weird.
I watched Batman Returns with my late dad as a 7 year old, that was first biggest cinematic experience.
I would pay 3x the price of a movie ticket or blu-ray to see Tim Burton do his take on “the Dark knight Returns” in present day with Keaton as an aged Batman.
His Batman was a response to _The Dark Knight Returns_ which came out a few years prior.
Gay knight returns
Same but in today's Hollywood everyone would be raced swapped or gay or gender swapped. So nah , just nah lol.
I have heard that Robin Williams was in talks about playing the Riddler years ago but I never knew he talked about it directly in an interview 🤯
Also Michelle Pfeiffer in Batman Returns in that latex catsuit is what made realize very early in my life that I like girls yet every girl I have ever met since has only disappointed in comparison.
It brings tears to my eyes when I think about how amazing it would have been to see Robin Williams in a Batman movie. Warner Brothers have made so many mistakes over the years. They really missed out on a massive opportunity to put Robin Williams against Batman.
Funny how parents thought Max Shreck getting electrocuted to death was too dark for children, but in Batman 89, Joker shocked that one mafia guy to death, and for like a whole minute, they showed his charred corpse.
This is a heart wrenching video of what could’ve been and the missed potential, especially seeing what we got.
I’d love to see Keaton and Burton team up again and do an older Batman movie.
Batman beyond
I think there were plans to do it but anymore because of The Flash being a box office failure
@@Leg0456 it sucks because the Batman movies themselves are usually good and do well. WB and DC just seem to screw up the rest of DC characters
I still can’t believe nobody cares that they just blatantly blackmailed us. “Hey, make Flash box office hit and we’ll promise to make a Batman Beyond movie…if not too bad”
6:26 hahaha one of the reasons I love Keaton, he just loves this and his fans that manic energy
#TimBurton is a legend. I love watching his material. A very talented and wonderful man.
Batman Returns is my absolute favourite Batman movie.
"You said you were only going to scare the Ice Princess!" ..."She looked pretty scared to me."
@@vincentr.6109 Mistletoe can be deadly if you eat it, but a kiss can be even deadlier...if you mean it
"Talent Scout!"
I miss Robin Williams so much, seeing him as a comic book villain like the Joker or the Riddler would have been such a treasure.
Would have loved to see him as a Riddler. His animated performance definitely makes me feel like it would've been the best Riddler on screen!!
Would have loved to see him as a Riddler. His animated performance definitely makes me feel like it would've been the best Riddler on screen!!
Robin Williams is very one dimensional. He was the same in every movie that was a comedy. He can do a serious film but he would never have made a good Batman crazy bad guy.
@@phoenix21studios Most comedy actors are one dimensional. But definitely not Robin Williams. His performance in Insomnia is totally different
@@riverman6462 I like his serious roles. same with Jim Carrey, like his too. but his COMEDY feels one dimensional.
6:02 - that's hilarious how he does Nicholson's voice in that clip
There is a lot truth with some of the things you mentioned, The Internet likes to make up that Burton was going to title it "Batman Continues" with Pfeiffer returning as Catwoman, or Scarecrow as the fourth villain, or Billy Dee Williams returning as Two Face. There was never even a script or treatment. Unlike Sam Raimi with Spider-Man 4, you'd think Tim Burton would give insight about his ideas for Batman 3 like the flashback plot idea, but every time he's asked that, it's always the same answer; He had one meeting with WB and things went south. The plot you summarized was actually Keaton's idea for where the series could go but, that's the thing, it was just an idea but not the official direction Burton was aiming for. The original writers for the then titled "Batman III", Lee, and Janet Scott Batchler were hired AFTER Burton left to work with Schumacher, and if you read their script, or listen to their interviews, they would tell you there was no Catwoman returning, and becoming a anti-hero, no love triangle plot with Chase, or anything like that. Meaning, Dr. Chase Meridian was a character created for Schumacher's Batman. It was their idea of having Robin, and Schumacher for adding Two Face as they originally just wanted The Riddler. (With Tommy Lee Jones being Schumacher's casting choice.)
The unused Keaton Batsuits don't look too similar to the ones we ended up with either, besides the nipples. And the only reason why Burton was credited as producer was mainly because of his involvement in hiring the Bachelor's. People also just shove Marlon Wayne's as he was originally cast as Robin in Batman Returns, and Billy Dee Williams already cast in Batman '89. They're all made stuff. The Catwoman spinoff film was the closest to Burton's continuing the Batman world, and unlike his Batman 3, there was actually a script by Daniel Waters in 1995 that you can read. And no, it does not have her continue on as an anti-hero as you mentioned. It retcons the ending of Returns by saying Selina was sent to the hospital from the bullets.
Initially I thought Williams would've been too wholesome to pull off the Riddler. But then they reminded me of his One Hour Photo performance. What a range that man had.
Thank you so much for putting all these sources together. I've always been a fan of the making of the potential Batman films we never got and this was so facinating to see.
My pleasure! Glad you enjoyed it.
I would happily sacrifice all three of Nolan's Batman films for a third of Burton's Batman. But an interesting take on what could have been :)
Yes, Mr. Burton - we like it DARK. Thank you.
Burrons comment on the nipples was hilarious 😂
Also, seeing Schumachers' apology to anyone who didn't enjoy batman forever is great.
You gotta at least respect him for that!
TBH, I think Schumacher got too much flack for how his Batman films turned out. He originally wanted to do an adaptation of Batman: Year One, but WB insisted on a lighter tone.
@@roberttreacy8271 I wonder whether or not his year one adaptation also would've been as goofy as batman and Robin was.
Tim Burton's third Batman movie sounds like it would have been brilliant. I loooooove Michael Keaton as Batman and Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman, in my opinion is the best. When you hear about what could have been, compared to what we actually got with the Schumacher films, awwww it's like a kick in the nuts. More Catwoman and a third Keaton Batman sounds fantastic 😢
I wonder if Tim Burton's version of Batman Forever would have been similar in plot to The Long Halloween
That poster on the thumbnail looks amazing
I saw Batman Returns when it first came out when I was 5 years old, and I loved it.
Batman returns is in the top 3 bat movies. Danny, Michael, and Michelle were spectacular.
Nah it’s a weird Tim Burton movie in a Batman costume
@@DoctorSessit's always the "nah" asshole to talk bulshit
Jim Henson and tim burton are gods!
I never knew he would rather have it be called Batman Continues that is such a badass name for it
I wouldn't change Batman Forever at all, it's one of my favorites, despite being really out there Tommy Lee Jones surprised me with his energy because I believe he was in his fifties at that time and Jim Carrey was just hilarious as the Riddler.
Last week I watched The Flash. Michael Keaton was superb and seeing him back as Batman is probabky the only reason to watch this movie. It should really have been a Batman movie with The Flash as the supporting character.
It was interesting, and I was excited to see him, but Michael Keaton's Batman was more of a loner and didn't communicate plans. "Batman, what do we do?" It was a real downer that they couldn't defeat Zod.
Ben Affleck's Batman put the Justice League together and was their leader and strategist, as Barry said, but was more aloof.
George Clooney's Batman dealt with younger allies like Robin and Batgirl, so seemed more friendly to Barry than the Bruce Wayne he knew who didn't want to hang out. I could imagine the former throwing Barry and his father a party after that scene.
@@sandal_thong8631perfectly stated.
Batman Returns is my favorite Batman due to its dark nature that was truer to the comics, how character driven it was, and because of Keaton and Pfeiffer, whose performances were so great they easily rank as the best Batman and Catwoman. Keaton was the perfect choice for the Wayne/Batman's duality, the violence raging just beneath the aloof, often funny and quirky exterior. He nailed that so well. And Pfeiffer, oh damn, the same. Batman Continues would have been sooooo stellar. I'm really unsure why parents and McDonalds thought Batman Returns would be family friendly, though. The first Batman certainly wasn't.
_Returns_ set the stage for team-ups of villains, so we got Riddler and Two-Face and Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy. The last pair had conflicting views of what they wanted to accomplish, so their alliance didn't make sense.
Thinking about how you could bring in a Robin to a dark Batman, maybe Batman gets wounded and trains a successor or substitute. Something I read about military tactics said that a two-man team working together is more efficient than one working alone, or even two working alone.
Man that footage of the merchandising form both movies brought back strong feelings from when I was a kid. This may be sad but I was completely swept up in the craze of merchandising during and after both Tim Burton movies. I remember after the first Burton's Batman came out on VHS there was a promo for the merchandising before the film presented by Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck. Unbelievably, my parents had pressed pause and my father went to the telephone to call the 1 800 number I think to buy a tie. No idea. Unfortunately after about 10 mins or so he never got through. As a kid I was obsessed with the 'magic', let's say, and or the world the Tim Burton had created. No one had seen anything like it. I think I was maybe 6 or 7 when I saw the first one in theaters. When I saw the batcave playset in a catalogue I just about lost my mind. Still my favorite two Batmans. I never was fully sold with Batman Begins and successive films. However, I really would have liked to have seen a stand alone Ben Affleck film partly because I enjoyed the stylized and sort of surreal world they had taken from Miller's comic books.
This was an incredible breakdown! Thank you!
Tim Burton's title for Batman III should have been the title for Christopher Nolan's sequel
BATMAN
R I S E S
Batman Returns is definitely my favorite of the Burton Batman films.
Fantastic piece. Thank you for posting. “Batman Returns” is the only Batman movie I still love.
4:24 🤣💀👏👏👏👏
I'm not sure if it's true but I watched a video about Batman Returns and they said that the reason Billy D. Williams was replaced by the Max Shrek-character was because the studio opposed the idea of a black Two-Face.
That’s awful if true. Billy Dee would’ve been awesome.
My god, can you imagine how good Robin Williams would have been as the riddler?
Tim Burtons quote followed by Keatons grin at 4:30...I lost it 🤣🤣🤣
Batman Continues sounded like it would've been awesome!
It's a bit unfortunate what happened back then, but everything happened the way it was supposed to. It's like you said, we probably never would've gotten Christopher Nolan's take on the batman if it wasn't for Joel Schumacher's take.
In Tim Burton's defense, WB KNEW about his take, unless they gave him creative freedom while they made a deal with McDs. Whatever happened, there may have been oversight. Mr Burton's sequel then comes out dark, WB parts ways with him to avoid high costs and low revenue, AND make up for what they did with McD's... yeah.
On the bright side, Mr Schumacher's movie won 10 awards and 26 nominations, AND we got Mr Nolan's Dark Knight. As for The Flash movie... yeah.
The funny thing about Batman 89 was Burton had such nightmare of a tine working with the producer of film because he waa more over the top than Burton could be. Post film Burton wanted nothing to do with producer so when WB asked Burton to do another film he had to be left alone and WB agreed. So when people were outraged by the look and feel of Batman Returns they only had themselves to blame for simply saying to Burton we can't give you complete freedom but we'll give you a producer that's less hands on and far less crazy, and you would have had a slightly different Batman Returns but we also probably get Burton's third film.
A great history and breakdown, I knew much of how we got to the version of Batman Returns that we all know. But I was unaware of certain aspects of the film such as a possible love triangle between Bruce, Catwoman, and Dr. Maridian. Given how the character of the doctor was played at times in the film I would have found it very off putting because many times she is very much obsessed with Batman to the point of many pointing out how inappropriate her tactics of flat out trying to seduce Batman were. So having Catwoman in the mix would have been more of the same. And while I love Robin Williams and have seen some of his darker performances I don't know how I would have felt about him as a dark Tim Burton character. I do think regardless of who Burton cast as Two Face we probably would have had a better performance. And with Robin I don't know if even Burton would have been able to make that character work in a live action sense because a kid in that version is way to out there and the young men who were considered as a kid you think is cool but as an adult I just say I don't see why you needed it. Other than Dark Knight Raises with the character being Robin in name alone but someone who takes up the mantel in the future.
I’ve always loved Batman Returns. I didn’t know that there was backlash against it. I couldn’t care less about Batman Forever and Batman and Robin.
Batman Forever is alright, Batman and Robin is crap. The second one is good.
Batman Forever was my first Batman film and still holds a special place in my heart. While it definitely didn't live up to the previous two films, I still think it's hugely unappreciated, the way Batman's origin story was handled with flashbacks has always been pretty memorable to me, and Val Kilmer did a pretty good job.
I agree with all of this. Did not know a lot about what happened behind the scenes as to why things were what they were but this was the closure I needed. Thank you.
Come to think of it, maybe we can just use AI to make the movie we never got. With Robin Williams as the Riddler, and Billy as Two Face