There are 3 separate bouts of priming(boiler water being carried over with the steam) at 0:38 - 0:48, 0:59 - 1:20, and 1:45 till sometime behind the trees. It's all over by the time she goes under the bridge. Water carryover can be seen if you watch the funnel at those times and also hear the change in exhaust sound. There are various causes, but the driver does the right thing to reduce it by easing off and opening the cylinder cocks to prevent hydraulic damage to the cylinders. Unfortunately priming also washes the oil off the cylinder walls.
Thanks for the technical info,thesesteam trains area amazing, love them all, the drivers generally recognised the engine's functions,experience and good ears, those were the days. She'll be 'chuffing' when all the Diesels have croaked.
As an ex fireman from the fifties, in all my time as a fireman I have never experienced " water carry over ", if you were careless and left the injectors on and filled the boiler, particularly if it happened in the station, that would be deemed to be a criminal offense, yes, the railway police do have very strict laws especially if there was a chance of the public being sprayed with boiling water. I believe this was a planned set up for the crowds of photographers. If there was too much water in the boiler it would have blown out of the safety valve, there is also a steam regulator gear apart from the throttle which is part of the linkage train. If you look, there is steam coming from the injector pipe indicating that the boiler was being filled due to the massive chimney draft from unusual usage. The difference in funnel sound was probably when the firebox door was opened for stoking. Not a great idea to open the drain valves on an incline and having the steam condensing on the rails, note the brief wheel spin.....and it wasn't really pulling a great load...
@@robertmohler9219 Glad you think so Bob, but every engineman knows these things. This video wasn't taken in the 1950's and hundreds of steam locos are still in service all over the world along with thousands of current steam drivers and firemen (and women). Driving and firing principles haven't changed for 100 years no matter what type of steam loco or what country you are in. When I was firing many years ago I was taught by the generation before me, who were taught by the generation before them from experience, as well as qualifying in Boiler and Engine Driving Theory of course.
That's one of the many pleasures of the NYMR - hearing a steam engine working hard. I have a number of videos of NYMR not all with an engine having problems.
@@neildahlgaard-sigsworth3819 Out of interest, where did you get the link to this video? It had about 500 views about 6 months after posting it, and then suddenly started to get thousands of views, currently over 360,000.
Awesome video... Brought lot of my childhood memories back. Excellent video shot. Lot of hardwork behind choosing the location and patiently waiting for the locomotive...
That driver did a brilliant job to recover as well as he did. To have that happen at the start of the grade is good. But it shows both his and his fireman’s in recovering as well as they did. As driver, I applaud them.
Wonderful wonderful video, you’ve captured all the drama and determination going into getting up the hill. Lovely to see the train in its landscape. Brilliant work. + 1 subscriber here!
Well done, indeed. Such a great video! That must have been quite a long high-quality zoom lens. You did such a good job overall of following the subject and keeping the shaking to a minimum. I know how hard that is to do. Great work from selection of the vantage point to the execution of the shoot.
looked like a carry over. fireman opened cylinder taps to avoid damage. driver would have felt something not right it turns the locomotive into a hydraulic jack.
Agreed. Possibly a slightly overfilled boiler in a non tapered boiler lead to a carry over. The regulator and reverser gear are the proper things to regulate torque, which some viewers think is what is happening when the drain cocks are opened !
The fireman put too much water in the boiler and she primed. The water got into the steam pipe through the cylinder's up the chimney. The steam coming from the front is from the cylinder cocks under the cylinder's.
@@paulmallery6719 On that line you're meant to get the valves blowing before the climb, so you definitely know that you are going to make it up hill and that you've got a good fireman. And that wasn't the safety valve, those were the cylinder cocks.
such a video gives the populus a chance to say their two penneth about steam loco management. If as many volunteered to keep these machines in order as are criticising their crew's performance, perhaps the world would be a better place. OK she primed, but the crew knew how to get on and finish the trip, and perhaps lessons were learned.
... 'People' are so quick & easy to discard the past (connected to the present); and the persons & memories they hold dear leave (even quicker) along with it.
Opening the cylinder drains so that the water slugs in the cylinders dont get compressed by the piston and blow out a cylinder head. Priming is VERY bad for a locomotive.
When the safeties pop just after the cylinder cocks open, to me it can only mean one thing. The fireman put on too much fuel, and tried to compensate by adding cool water to the boiler to prevent the safeties from opening. Unfortunately, it usually only works if you're a little bit over fired, because if the boiler is already almost full you can get water into the dry pipe and whoosh. Happens to my 1/8th scale engine all the time if i'm not paying attention. :-) With the cylinder cocks open, you lose about 1/4 of your compression, but with automatic cylinder cocks it's not a big deal but it's embarrassing...
By the way, the smoke is supposed to be grey, which you can see very near the end as the fireman finally gets her under control. . She was trying to "clear her throat" all the way up the grade, dumping lots and lots of saturated steam out the stack... :-)
The 10 Wheeler in San Diego had manual cylinder cocks and piston timing gear, and when she water hammered when the cocks were left closed, she broke her frame. Deceased. Slide valves were always safer, since a water hammer merely lifts the plate to relieve the pressure.
All I could hear was... "From the great Atlantic ocean to the wide Pacific shore ; She climbs a flowery mountains o'er the hills and by the shore...." ("Wabash Cannonball" Roy Acuff)
Nothing to do with any american "railroad" This is a British Steam Locomotive running on ralls in the British Isles, the place where steam locomotion was invented.
@adjn1973 Priming is when water is carried over in the steam supply to the cylinders usually caused by foaming in the boiler due to impurities in feed water collecting in the boiler. this is cured by either blowing down the boiler or washing out the boiler this latter is a standard maintenance procedure. Blowing down the boiler can be done by the train crew whilst the loco is in service but it must be done with care as it rapidly lowers the water level in boiler which could be dangerous.
@adjn1973 The train crew had opened the cylinder drain cocks to prevent water building up in the cylinders and causing a hydraulic "lock" to occur as water is incompressible. Had this happened, either the cylinder ends would have been blown out or other serious mechanical damage to the engine would have happened. Usually the drain cocks are open when the engine starts from cold and the steam condenses in the cold mass of the cylinder casting. Once the engine has"warmed up" they are closed as this conserves steam. If the crew realises that priming is occurring, opening the drain cocks is the immediate action that they must take. I don't think that they would try to blow down the boiler at that point in the journey as the train is climbing a steep gradient. They would wait until the train was in a safe place to do it. I have seen the crew on the train on the Brecon Mountain Railway do this - a great railway to visit.
Priming Is a chemical reaction, carry over Is the water physically being taken up. Larger boiler locos can go upto around 2500-3000 ppm of tds before they start to experience priming. Nominally, one inch of blow down removes 90-110 ppm of tds from the boiler and on an average, for every 22 miles a loco does on a heritage railway (speed and work taken Into account) you'd evaporate around about 4 meters cubed of water. Other things that can affect priming are boiler design, alkalinity and water level. If you fully soften water, It'll likely prime, If the water level Is too high, even with good water, It'll prime. If the distance between the top of the water level and the top of the barrel Is too small, when the regulator Is opened, you'll produce waves and If those waves exceed 6m per second In speed, you'll likely carry the water over, break the surface tension and then It'll prime. Highly pressure boilers will convert most alkalinity to caustic (OH) at 180psi It's a 85% conversion rate. There's a direct correlation between TDS and alkalinity, so If the TDS gets too high, alot of railways will use anti foams, which Is bad practice. It's kinda' like taking a pain killer, doesn't fix the problem, but you just can't feel It anymore. The worry Is also carrying over Into the super heaters or a face to face lifted regulator, because It'll equalise the pressure on bother sides and you won't be able to shut It. Also, the more steam you use, the more a loco will prime. If you have particularly bad water and the safety valves are lifting, It'll likely prime and If you put the Injector on, It'll prime more. Locomotive boiler chemistry Is a dark art.
@i. rob It's my job 😊. I manage boilers and their chemistry on a heritage railway(s) to reduce scale and/or stop It from forming, stop the corrosion of metals and how to properly manage a boiler amongst, what's happening Inside when It’s being worked hard etc etc and all other things boiler related! And when I'm not doing that, I'm just a general all round fitter/overhaul/ bit of machine shop 🙂. I'm lucky to have been the apprentice to a very knowledgeable man who was a nuclear physicist, but just so happened to love all things steam, having Is own traction engine and steam roller which he did the boiler work on and repaired It. His father was a driver on the London Tilbury and Southend railway, which Is where his passion for steam comes from. I make a point of visiting him twice a week and sharing our knowledge.
Uh, guys... The driver is called an Engineer. Very cool video though. Looks like a stuck pressure release valve? At the end, he is slowing again with the release of more steam pressure. I don't know much about the old steamers, other than they sound really cool!
Thank you for taking the time to comment. It is always appreciated and I am pleased you like the video. In the UK we call him the driver (even though he is an engineer) but that is where different countries have different names for the same job. The problem is that water is being carried over into the cylinders and the cylinder relief valve is opened to save serious damage to the cylinder from hydraulicing. The pressure relief valve is on the top of the locomotive in front of the cab and opens automatically when the boiler pressure exceeds 180psi. You refer to the old steamers, and this one is over 100 years old having been built in 1918. Regards
@@gricerman2054 Thanks! I appreciate your reply and knowing what the engineer is called over there. This is a good vid and I subscribed hoping there will be more! 😁
@@BradfordGuy Thank you for subscribing to my channel. I have 50+ videos on the channel, some not over interesting, but quite a few that are. for example, click this link ua-cam.com/video/LMATsc3AEVw/v-deo.html It is a similar loco at the same location (a few years earlier) having the same problem at the start of the grade. Our preserved lines have a 25mph speed limit, except the Great Central Railway. This has the same limit for normal trains, but is used by the diesel manufacturer, Brush, to test their loco's and has a discretionary limit of 75mph. I have a few videos where we some steam is doing 40-60mph. Worth a look I hope you enjoy my offerings
Notice at 2.18 cattle coming through the tunnel. I've ridden the high-speed TGV trains in Europe. There are no grade crossings at all. Traffic goes over or under. There are tunnels for animals, and I suppose pedestrians if one doesn't mind stepping in cow do-do.
Could be a few things. Priming and they have opened the drain cocks to get rid of excess water. He may not have cleared the cylinders properly at station or a regulator jam.
@@bigchevy80 You don't understand the seriousness. Insect populations are disappearing. We are facing mass extinctions and climate change on a global scale.
Almost everyone commenting on this video seems to know how to operate a steam locomotive better than the guys who’re actually on the footplate. Should’ve done this....shouldn’t have done that. So many engineers out there - who knew?
Hi John Thanks for the comment. It's a popular spot for photographs but not easily accessible. They would not have got a good picture as the steam from the cylinder cocks would obscure the engine.
@@tyredlie No, it slowed down because the driver partly closed the regulator to avoid a slip; as soon as the draincocks were opened water shot out and onto the rails ahead of the loco making them rather slippery.
@@tyredlie The train would never slow down on that bank without good cause as the gradient is very steep by railway standards at 1 in 49.The driver had a problem and showed good enginemanship to avoid damaging the loco and keep his train moving.
No the fireman has got to much water in the boiler, hence she’s priming, I was on steam footplate through 1950/1960s and the driver would have your guts for garters, if that happened.
Aah nothing wrorse then a lazy armchair steam locamotive engineer expert with a beer in hand reclining watching youtube spewing what the engineer should haves, could haves, what if's, and if I am the armchair engineer and would have... instead of enjoying historic steam engine pass by.... Warning liberals like yourself will get steam power banned c as well use its poor emmisionssions causing climate change all from the arm chair steam engineering expert...
@SS Standartenfuhrer perfect, they have openings, government free shit unsustainable handouts, good to take advantage of... after all it us you're tax money they are wasting.
@@airgliderz I agree, as a one time fireman on another heritage line, the driver would have had my guts for garters in similar circumstances. Part of training for firemen is to maintain a suitable level of water in the boiler which this video shows is clearly not the case here.
In wonder if the people riding in the cars were more upset about possibly having to walk back down or worried that the whole train would start rolling backwards.
Hi There it is Mr Cannadine T. Boxill-Harris, I have another interesting idea for most of you Class 508, Class 507, Class 313, Class 314 and that also is including those interesting Class 315 Fans out there, rather than scrapping most of those Class 508, Class 507, Class 313's Class 314's including the Class 315's maybe you guys can convert them and including the refurbishment into those Leyland 680 Engine, Volvo B10M Engine, Cummins M11 Engine, Gardner 6LXC Engine, Gardner 6LXB Engine, Gardner 8LXB Engine, Class 508 Class 507, Class 313's, Class 314's and the Class 315's and convert all of them into a 2 Carriages and Three Carriages of the Class 508, Class 507, Class 313's, Class 314's and that is including those Class 315's for most of us Class 314's and the Class 315's Diesel Train Fans out there Please? Are you still going to do this interesting type of Project for all of us out there Pretty PLEASE.
The cylinder cocks have been opened to prevent damage to the cylinders as water has been carried over from the boiler. With this steep hill, the driver needs all the power he can get and opening the cylinder cocks reduces the power to the wheel, hence the serious slowing. Thank you for your comment
So.....was this a classic case of The Little Engine That Could? All I heard was I KNOW I CAN, I KNOW I CAN! I KNOW I CAN!! I KNOW I CAN!!! I KNEW I COULD! I KNEW I COULD!! I KNEW I COULD!!! 😁
He blew off most of his head of steam before he began losing speed, he dumped it with every valve he could wide open, it was blowing steam straight ahead about 100 ft !
Hi Dick Thanks for the comment. The loco still had plenty of steam as evidenced by that coming rom the safety valve in front of the cab. The driver appears to have got water carried over into the cylinders which can cause serious problems. the driver has to open the cylinder relief valves to force the water out and close the regulator which would slow the engine especially on a steep hill like this one.
@@gricerman2054 I'm not familiar with trains but boilers I am I fix them, I know if you blow off that much head pressure you have lost alot of power, it seemed as if he was shutting down, I take your word for it though you know more about driving boilers than me lol, I used to be a high limit on big boilers my friend Dad was fixing at Mc Clellan AFB, If I forgot to blow off steam it would have taken out the entire hangar.
An interesting video and a serious case of an overfilled boiler causing priming....or was the TDS too high causing foaming? I guess not, the NYMR are pretty hot on their water treatment. I suspect that the fireman was a bit over enthusiastic at Grosmont and then kept putting water in to try to keep the loco quiet.
Hi James Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders and as you may, or may not be aware, water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance caused by the water in the cylinder is not released serious damage can occur. The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the water in the cylinder to be expelled and the pressure reduced. This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco. This also has the effect of reducing the power to the wheels hence the slowing of the train.
This type of steam locomotive has all its weight on mechanically 'driven', or linked, tires. So, it has a lot of tractive effort, and a lot of adhesion on the rails. If it had an engine truck, like a 2-8-2 or a 4-6-2 has, the engine truck being the lead truck just behind the pilot at the front of the locomotive, and/or a trailer truck, it would be much less. In fact, this is the one great problem with steam locomotives; they support too much of their weight on non-driven trucks, which makes it easier for the drivers to spin under great loads and effort. Also, all steamers that I know of have what is called a 'snifter valve', or a vacuum break valve, which is most often found partway up the diagonal blast pipe that rises off the valve chest and enters the smoke box. If the cylinder cocks stick or otherwise malfunction, and the engineer detects foaming or 'carry-over' of too-high water in the boiler, he can open the snifters and help to prevent pressure that way. It's not as good as open cylinder cocks, but every bit could help when there is danger of a hydraulic ram. This is what was the danger here. The engine driver felt the locomotive's effort change, and the sound changed, so he knew he'd soon have the pistons ramming into a wall of water on either side of their motion. Instant piston fracture, rod fracture, and/or blow the heads off the cylinders.
Sniffing valves are to allow an air flow into cylinders/steam circuits with piston valves. Because pistons in are a tight fit in their cylinders the pumping action can create a partial vacuum when the regulator is closed. This creates a danger of smoke box gases being drawn back down the blast pipe the wrong way to destroy that vacuum, damaging the cylinders. Sniffing, or anti-vacuum valves, are positioned ahead of cylinders in the steam circuit to allow air to flow into them the ‘right’ way. Nothing to do with releasing pressure or water following a priming incident as they are in the wrong place. Cylinder cocks are your only hope there
Hi Pauluk, Thank you for your comment. Just to clarify what is happening, the driver is not actually priming the steam out the front. Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders and as you may, or may not be aware, water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance caused by the water in the cylinder is not released serious damage can occur. The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the water in the cylinder to be expelled and the pressure reduced. This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco. This also has the effect of reducing the power to the wheels hence the slowing of the train. I hope this clarifies what it means to prime. Best Regards
@Christopher Vagnone Hi Christopher, thank you for your comment and I am pleased it was helpful. This question has been asked a few times and you are only the second person to respond. Thank you for taking the time to reply. Regards Peter
Hi Michael Thank you for your comment. I don't think it is a boiler blow down, especially at the start of a climb at 1 in 49. Blow downs are usually carried out on shed and the steam emanates from under the cab area. Hope you enjoyed the video Regards Peter
Hi Malcolm This engine regularly pulls this load up the hill. and as my description says, the engine probably has too much water in its boiler and is priming. Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders and as you may, or may not be aware, water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance in the cylinder is not released serious damage can occur. The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the pressure and water in the cylinder to be reduced This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco.
@@gricerman2054 I guess because I'm used to watching American steam locomotives I was having a hard time understanding what was going on here. Seems like an odd design placement for cylinder cocks since it would be wetting the rails. At one point it looked like they slipped right after they opened the cocks. Locomotives I'm used to seeing eject water and steam to the side when the cylinder cocks are open. Again, I'm not familiar with this locomotive, but it appears to be a shared "discharge"... but there's no "chuffing" associated. That looks more like a blow down or a safety valve lifting to me, but from a weird location. Just a design difference with the cylinder cocks?
At 00:38, when he comes out from behind that tree, it's obvious the cylinder cocks start to "Blow" before being "Opened"; cylinder cocks are made to do that.
What is meant by "priming"? Can't guess. Looked to me like driver periodically opened cylinder drains to release liquid from cylinders. Would this engine not have superheater?
Hi Jacques thank you for your comment. Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders and as you may, or may not be aware, water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance caused by the water in the cylinder is not released, serious damage can occur. The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the water in the cylinder to be expelled and the pressure reduced. This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco. This also has the effect of reducing the power to the wheels hence the slowing of the train. I hope this clarifies things for you. Regards Peter
@@gricerman2054 IOW, a "clean" version of foaming. Fully understanding the tight fit of pistons to cylinder-heads and the incompressibility of liquid water breaking pistons/rods/heads, thus my phrase about the drains. Seems this engine was meant for short-distance low-speed switching (aka shunting) work, with no pilot truck (aka bogie), so it makes sense that it would not have a superheater, which would obviate really wet steam. How would the crew know if they were getting liquid-carryover, except they'd see raindrops coming out the stack? Been there, seen that, riding next the smokebox of an old saturated Baldwin. Thanks for the clarification, from a Yank.
@@jacquesblaque7728 Hi again Jacques. Interesting and knowledgeable reply as you seem to understand the possible problems. These locos were built, with superheaters, for heavy freight work hauling coal and minerals and were a very successful design. Just out of interest, There were 120 built 1913-1921 and the last was withdrawn in 1967. I know of three main causes of priming: Foaming from the water treatment, Boiler overfilled and climbing a gradient in reverse where the water runs to the front of the boiler. Because of the repeated opening of the cylinder cocks, I would guess foaming might be the problem. Keep safe in these troubled times
Dear sir thanks for your answer On torque output. If I recall right The formula is 3.14 (r)2 * air pressure, or in this case steem pressure,, not 100% sure here. Can someone set me right here
That gives you the force on the piston rod, not the torque, at a specific pressure. With loco's tractive effort is the usual metric and if you Google tractive effort formula for steam loco, you will find what you want to know. It accounts for boiler pressure, cylinder bore, stroke and wheel diameter. It's an approximation at best. You multiply the result by 1.5 for 3 cylinder, and 2 for four cylinders. As for adhesion, well, ask the driver!
Hi Steev O, thank you for your comment. It is an interesting viewpoint and we mostly tend to favour our own national engines. This loco was originally built in 1913. I think I can understand how you think they look odd. Apart from them being much larger, I look at American steam locos and see that there is so much pipework and peripherals on view. This is also true of many European locos. British locos have most of that hidden away giving, to my eyes, a much more aesthetically pleasing look. It could also be that the British loading gauge is so much more restrictive and locos have to be built to fit. Regards Peter
@@gricerman2054 You got a point about all the exposed plumbing on American locomotives. I just watched some of the "46233 Duchess of Sutherland" footage and that's a very clean looking engine. Have a good day.
Hi Joseph, Thank you for your comment. Just to clarify what is happening here. Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders and as you may, or may not be aware, water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance caused by the water in the cylinder is not released serious damage can occur. The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the water in the cylinder to be expelled and the pressure reduced. This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco. This also has the effect of reducing the power to the wheels hence the slowing of the train. I hope this clarifies things for you. Best Regards
Why did the driver release so much wasted steam, a bit unnecessary I would have thought, unless the driver wished to extend his drive.? Regards Smudger
Thank you for your comment He was doing it to save his engine from serious damage as it was priming. Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders and as you may, or may not be aware, water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance caused by the water in the cylinder is not released serious damage can occur. The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the water in the cylinder to be expelled and the pressure reduced. This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco. This also has the effect of reducing the power to the wheels hence the slowing of the train. I hope this clarifies things a little Regards Peter
my dad was a fireman in euston.1955 t0 57..he was from Denbigh .north wales..loads went to London.the old man worked at Willesden and Cricklewood..remember him saying him and fred bense[driver.neasden]would go to crewe out of Willesden works and theyd take water on at sears crossing in Buckinghamshire [8 years before the train robbery]
he passed awauy few years back and he told me to sell his[and my grandads lms lantern..used to get to the signal box..got 40 quid it was made in 1917] bit history..another good story ..my youngest lad was about 3..he loved Thomas the tank ..And the scotsman came to llandudno junctuion ..sean was crying[noise and power]the old man went up to the tender and deep in conversation[in welsh]with the fireman and driver..he beconed me over..my lad was sobering less, and we got on the footplate ..couldn't believe it..all these bill oddie type[enthusaists ]were like we pay a fortune and get up..the old man had got us on because the bangor driver was from bangor and had worked out of euston… thought provoking
I have the same question. The drain valve should be open at start when the cyclinder is "cold" so condensed water does not accumulate. After, you just loose power by reducing the chimney draft ... And by loosing pressure to the low pressure cylinders if it is a coumpound machine.
Gricerman 2 months ago Hi Joe, Thank you for your comment. Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders and as you may, or may not be aware, water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance caused by the water in the cylinder is not released serious damage can occur. The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the water in the cylinder to be expelled and the pressure reduced. This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco. This also has the effect of reducing the power to the wheels hence the slowing of the train. I hope this clarifies what it means to prime. Best Regards Show less
There is no level ground on this stretch of railway. It is all uphill (mainly 1 in 49) from shortly after the loco is in full view until Goathland, then a little less steep for a couple more miles
Hi Tommy Thank you for your comment Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders and as you may, or may not be aware, water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance caused by the water in the cylinder is not released serious damage can occur. The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the water in the cylinder to be expelled and the pressure reduced. This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco. This also has the effect of reducing the power to the wheels hence the slowing of the train.
@@fredbentley4944 Several ways, most locos have pressure relief valves in the cylinders as well as draincocks and the driver would heat these opening, also the sound at the chimney changes from a bark to a wooffle and plenty of water comes out of the blast pipe with the steam showering the loco.
@@fredbentley4944 Hi Fred. The sound of the exhaust changes from a bark to a more muffled woofing sound, power drops off and the loco movement (the feel of the loco) changes. You can see the exhaust appears to change from the chimney. See also my video 901 priming.
Hi Ed. Thank you for your comment. There is no average steam engine and no simple method of calculating torque output. Most information of this kind relates to tractive effort which will depend on the following factors: Piston diameter in inches, Piston stroke in inches, Operating pressure in pounds per square inch and diameter of the driving wheels. The tractive effort quoted for this locomotive is 28,800 pounds. Regards Peter
Hi Robert. It is due to water being carried over into the cylinders which is called priming and can cause serious damage if not actioned as the crew have done.
Hi Tina. Thank you for your comment, and I presume you are not from England. I hope the following will help clarify my video content for you. As it mentions at the end of my description, the scene is on a section of The North Yorkshire Moors Railway. This is situated in the north east of England. The problem relates to the locomotive priming as it starts on the steep incline. Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders. Water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance caused by the water in the cylinder is not released serious damage can occur. The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the water in the cylinder to be expelled and the pressure reduced. This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco. This also has the effect of reducing the power to the wheels hence the slowing of the train. Kind regards
Why is the smoke" from main stack so white, obviously they are not burning wood or coal? thanks. Makes me think that like a blown head gasket in a ice engine ,the water is getting into the exhaust of the firebox and creating so much white smoke that the regular black smoke is obscured? ua-cam.com/video/FH6knmorArw/v-deo.html shows another engine with occasional white smoke vs the black norm? Thanks. On a diff subject: Great reply below re: priming (MMichael Heath)
It is a mixture of smoke and condensed steam. The chimney is the exhaust outlet for the used steam from the cylinders as well as the smoke from the fire which is coal.
Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders and as you may, or may not be aware, water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance in the cylinder is not released serious damage can occur. The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the pressure and water in the cylinder to be reduced This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco. I hope this clarifies this for you
There are 3 separate bouts of priming(boiler water being carried over with the steam) at 0:38 - 0:48, 0:59 - 1:20, and 1:45 till sometime behind the trees. It's all over by the time she goes under the bridge. Water carryover can be seen if you watch the funnel at those times and also hear the change in exhaust sound. There are various causes, but the driver does the right thing to reduce it by easing off and opening the cylinder cocks to prevent hydraulic damage to the cylinders. Unfortunately priming also washes the oil off the cylinder walls.
Thanks for the technical info,thesesteam trains area amazing, love them all, the drivers generally recognised the engine's functions,experience and good ears, those were the days. She'll be 'chuffing' when all the Diesels have croaked.
So basically,something screwed up? Yeah?
As an ex fireman from the fifties, in all my time as a fireman I have never experienced " water carry over ", if you were careless and left the injectors on and filled the boiler, particularly if it happened in the station, that would be deemed to be a criminal offense, yes, the railway police do have very strict laws especially if there was a chance of the public being sprayed with boiling water. I believe this was a planned set up for the crowds of photographers. If there was too much water in the boiler it would have blown out of the safety valve, there is also a steam regulator gear apart from the throttle which is part of the linkage train. If you look, there is steam coming from the injector pipe indicating that the boiler was being filled due to the massive chimney draft from unusual usage. The difference in funnel sound was probably when the firebox door was opened for stoking. Not a great idea to open the drain valves on an incline and having the steam condensing on the rails, note the brief wheel spin.....and it wasn't really pulling a great load...
Wow, good to have a fifties era fireman to explain this technology. Sir, which railroad did you work for?
Bob Mohler
@@robertmohler9219 Glad you think so Bob, but every engineman knows these things. This video wasn't taken in the 1950's and hundreds of steam locos are still in service all over the world along with thousands of current steam drivers and firemen (and women). Driving and firing principles haven't changed for 100 years no matter what type of steam loco or what country you are in. When I was firing many years ago I was taught by the generation before me, who were taught by the generation before them from experience, as well as qualifying in Boiler and Engine Driving Theory of course.
Just love the sound of a steam locomotive doing what it was designed for!!!😁
That's one of the many pleasures of the NYMR - hearing a steam engine working hard. I have a number of videos of NYMR not all with an engine having problems.
Tim Green except this one was designed to haul freight, not passengers.
@@neildahlgaard-sigsworth3819
It's still pulling a load. That's what is important. It's not just pulling a tender without working.
9 IPO
@@neildahlgaard-sigsworth3819 Out of interest, where did you get the link to this video? It had about 500 views about 6 months after posting it, and then suddenly started to get thousands of views, currently over 360,000.
Awesome video...
Brought lot of my childhood memories back.
Excellent video shot. Lot of hardwork behind choosing the location and patiently waiting for the locomotive...
That driver did a brilliant job to recover as well as he did. To have that happen at the start of the grade is good. But it shows both his and his fireman’s in recovering as well as they did. As driver, I applaud them.
Wonderful wonderful video, you’ve captured all the drama and determination going into getting up the hill. Lovely to see the train in its landscape. Brilliant work. + 1 subscriber here!
Great setup for the camera in a panoramic shooting spot - well done!
Thank you. It is one of my favourite spots on the NYMR and I have quite a few more videos from this location on UA-cam and more to come.
@ragnhild thingstad LOL, that was just what I was gonna comment. He needs a good fluid head video tripod. :)
@@EdEditz I do have a slightly better fluid head now but I have to use what I can afford
@@gricerman2054 That's okay. It is a great video anyway :)
Well done, indeed. Such a great video! That must have been quite a long high-quality zoom lens. You did such a good job overall of following the subject and keeping the shaking to a minimum. I know how hard that is to do. Great work from selection of the vantage point to the execution of the shoot.
Great camera location and catching the problem wonderful to watch and hear
Certainly a good vantage point for both railway and countryside views!
looked like a carry over. fireman opened cylinder taps to avoid damage. driver would have felt something not right it turns the locomotive into a hydraulic jack.
Agreed. Possibly a slightly overfilled boiler in a non tapered boiler lead to a carry over. The regulator and reverser gear are the proper things to regulate torque, which some viewers think is what is happening when the drain cocks are opened !
That was such a long large release of steam, that I thought the locomotive sprang a leak, but the recovery proved that it wasn't a leak.
Pressure relief valve blew. He added fuel too soon before the upgrade
The fireman put too much water in the boiler and she primed. The water got into the steam pipe through the cylinder's up the chimney. The steam coming from the front is from the cylinder cocks under the cylinder's.
@@paulmallery6719 On that line you're meant to get the valves blowing before the climb, so you definitely know that you are going to make it up hill and that you've got a good fireman. And that wasn't the safety valve, those were the cylinder cocks.
such a video gives the populus a chance to say their two penneth about steam loco management. If as many volunteered to keep these machines in order as are criticising their crew's performance, perhaps the world would be a better place. OK she primed, but the crew knew how to get on and finish the trip, and perhaps lessons were learned.
Well said and I agree with your comments.
... 'People' are so quick & easy to discard the past (connected to the present); and the persons & memories they hold dear leave (even quicker) along with it.
Releaseing steam to reduce torque on drive wheels. That engineer did a fantastic job.
Opening the cylinder drains so that the water slugs in the cylinders dont get compressed by the piston and blow out a cylinder head. Priming is VERY bad for a locomotive.
No.
When the safeties pop just after the cylinder cocks open, to me it can only mean one thing. The fireman put on too much fuel, and tried to compensate by adding cool water to the boiler to prevent the safeties from opening. Unfortunately, it usually only works if you're a little bit over fired, because if the boiler is already almost full you can get water into the dry pipe and whoosh. Happens to my 1/8th scale engine all the time if i'm not paying attention. :-) With the cylinder cocks open, you lose about 1/4 of your compression, but with automatic cylinder cocks it's not a big deal but it's embarrassing...
By the way, the smoke is supposed to be grey, which you can see very near the end as the fireman finally gets her under control. . She was trying to "clear her throat" all the way up the grade, dumping lots and lots of saturated steam out the stack... :-)
The 10 Wheeler in San Diego had manual cylinder cocks and piston timing gear, and when she water hammered when the cocks were left closed, she broke her frame. Deceased. Slide valves were always safer, since a water hammer merely lifts the plate to relieve the pressure.
Excellent shots ! 👍🏻
Thank you. I have a few more at this location which you may like too
@@gricerman2054 You're welcome, I'll check them out :)
The river in this valley is the Murk Esk and not the Esk, which heads west from Grosmont and not south like the Murk Esk.
All I could hear was... "From the great Atlantic ocean to the wide Pacific shore
; She climbs a flowery mountains o'er the hills and by the shore...." ("Wabash Cannonball" Roy Acuff)
Correction, wasn't that song by A.P. Carter?
Johnny Cash also sang that song.
"..listen to the rumble, listen to the roar, as she glides along the woodlands, by the sea and by the shore.....
boxcar willie wabash cannonball
Nothing to do with any american "railroad" This is a British Steam Locomotive running on ralls in the British Isles, the place where steam locomotion was invented.
Looks like a bad case of priming - good job the driver knew what he was doing.
@adjn1973 Priming is when water is carried over in the steam supply to the cylinders usually caused by foaming in the boiler due to impurities in feed water collecting in the boiler. this is cured by either blowing down the boiler or washing out the boiler this latter is a standard maintenance procedure. Blowing down the boiler can be done by the train crew whilst the loco is in service but it must be done with care as it rapidly lowers the water level in boiler which could be dangerous.
@adjn1973 The train crew had opened the cylinder drain cocks to prevent water building up in the cylinders and causing a hydraulic "lock" to occur as water is incompressible. Had this happened, either the cylinder ends would have been blown out or other serious mechanical damage to the engine would have happened. Usually the drain cocks are open when the engine starts from cold and the steam condenses in the cold mass of the cylinder casting. Once the engine has"warmed up" they are closed as this conserves steam. If the crew realises that priming is occurring, opening the drain cocks is the immediate action that they must take. I don't think that they would try to blow down the boiler at that point in the journey as the train is climbing a steep gradient. They would wait until the train was in a safe place to do it. I have seen the crew on the train on the Brecon Mountain Railway do this - a great railway to visit.
@adjn1973 Experience in operating a steam locomotive - you'd better ask them
Priming Is a chemical reaction, carry over Is the water physically being taken up. Larger boiler locos can go upto around 2500-3000 ppm of tds before they start to experience priming. Nominally, one inch of blow down removes 90-110 ppm of tds from the boiler and on an average, for every 22 miles a loco does on a heritage railway (speed and work taken Into account) you'd evaporate around about 4 meters cubed of water. Other things that can affect priming are boiler design, alkalinity and water level. If you fully soften water, It'll likely prime, If the water level Is too high, even with good water, It'll prime. If the distance between the top of the water level and the top of the barrel Is too small, when the regulator Is opened, you'll produce waves and If those waves exceed 6m per second In speed, you'll likely carry the water over, break the surface tension and then It'll prime. Highly pressure boilers will convert most alkalinity to caustic (OH) at 180psi It's a 85% conversion rate. There's a direct correlation between TDS and alkalinity, so If the TDS gets too high, alot of railways will use anti foams, which Is bad practice. It's kinda' like taking a pain killer, doesn't fix the problem, but you just can't feel It anymore. The worry Is also carrying over Into the super heaters or a face to face lifted regulator, because It'll equalise the pressure on bother sides and you won't be able to shut It. Also, the more steam you use, the more a loco will prime. If you have particularly bad water and the safety valves are lifting, It'll likely prime and If you put the Injector on, It'll prime more. Locomotive boiler chemistry Is a dark art.
@i. rob It's my job 😊. I manage boilers and their chemistry on a heritage railway(s) to reduce scale and/or stop It from forming, stop the corrosion of metals and how to properly manage a boiler amongst, what's happening Inside when It’s being worked hard etc etc and all other things boiler related! And when I'm not doing that, I'm just a general all round fitter/overhaul/ bit of machine shop 🙂. I'm lucky to have been the apprentice to a very knowledgeable man who was a nuclear physicist, but just so happened to love all things steam, having Is own traction engine and steam roller which he did the boiler work on and repaired It. His father was a driver on the London Tilbury and Southend railway, which Is where his passion for steam comes from. I make a point of visiting him twice a week and sharing our knowledge.
Excellent footage & beautiful Locomotive - I Liked & Subscribed 👍😎
Beautifully shot and I could see that everything was under control no need to panic or call for a bank loco
Hi John thank you for your comments
Uh, guys... The driver is called an Engineer. Very cool video though. Looks like a stuck pressure release valve? At the end, he is slowing again with the release of more steam pressure. I don't know much about the old steamers, other than they sound really cool!
Thank you for taking the time to comment. It is always appreciated and I am pleased you like the video.
In the UK we call him the driver (even though he is an engineer) but that is where different countries have different names for the same job.
The problem is that water is being carried over into the cylinders and the cylinder relief valve is opened to save serious damage to the cylinder from hydraulicing. The pressure relief valve is on the top of the locomotive in front of the cab and opens automatically when the boiler pressure exceeds 180psi.
You refer to the old steamers, and this one is over 100 years old having been built in 1918.
Regards
@@gricerman2054 Thanks! I appreciate your reply and knowing what the engineer is called over there. This is a good vid and I subscribed hoping there will be more! 😁
@@BradfordGuy Thank you for subscribing to my channel.
I have 50+ videos on the channel, some not over interesting, but quite a few that are. for example, click this link
ua-cam.com/video/LMATsc3AEVw/v-deo.html
It is a similar loco at the same location (a few years earlier) having the same problem at the start of the grade.
Our preserved lines have a 25mph speed limit, except the Great Central Railway. This has the same limit for normal trains, but is used by the diesel manufacturer, Brush, to test their loco's and has a discretionary limit of 75mph. I have a few videos where we some steam is doing 40-60mph. Worth a look
I hope you enjoy my offerings
Its a pity there is no gradient profile available from Whitby to Grosmont
The Esk Valley in New Zealand looks nothing like that but they still have trouble sometimes that's when the trains actually run, great video
Now, look out for the loggers.....
Notice at 2.18 cattle coming through the tunnel. I've ridden the high-speed TGV trains in Europe. There are no grade crossings at all. Traffic goes over or under. There are tunnels for animals, and I suppose pedestrians if one doesn't mind stepping in cow do-do.
Beautiful bit of English countryside. Thanks.
Thank you! I wondered where it was. It reminds me of my one trip on British RR to Northumberland from Victoria Station in London.
mark carey if you think this is beautiful, you should see it when it gets to Newtondale a few miles further south!
Very pastoral. If it wasn't for the NY winters and the NY taxes, I'd buy a piece of that.
we'll just have to cut a few cars loose any volunteers?
Could be a few things. Priming and they have opened the drain cocks to get rid of excess water. He may not have cleared the cylinders properly at station or a regulator jam.
Wet steam at chimney, wet steam at cylinder drain cocks = carry-over/priming/boiler over-filled. (someone forgot to shut injector off?)
@@nlo114 In these days of global warming and climate change, we should not be operating these terribly polluting machines.
@@PreservationEnthusiast you'll live
@@bigchevy80 You don't understand the seriousness. Insect populations are disappearing. We are facing mass extinctions and climate change on a global scale.
@@PreservationEnthusiast Calm down Chicken Little. Lmao
Technology is fine but knowledge is a lot better.
Almost everyone commenting on this video seems to know how to operate a steam locomotive better than the guys who’re actually on the footplate. Should’ve done this....shouldn’t have done that. So many engineers out there - who knew?
Well some of us have actually done the job so we might just be able to make an intelligent guess.
@@profatkwvr and some of us just like watching. Then reading comments from those who can explain it Cause they have the Experience,!
Must be a regular event. The photographers were waiting for it!
Hi John
Thanks for the comment.
It's a popular spot for photographs but not easily accessible. They would not have got a good picture as the steam from the cylinder cocks would obscure the engine.
I think your right John, the train slows down and picks up again for the Tourists.
Great bit of steam action though.
@@tyredlie No, it slowed down because the driver partly closed the regulator to avoid a slip; as soon as the draincocks were opened water shot out and onto the rails ahead of the loco making them rather slippery.
@@tyredlie The train would never slow down on that bank without good cause as the gradient is very steep by railway standards at 1 in 49.The driver had a problem and showed good enginemanship to avoid damaging the loco and keep his train moving.
Just listen to that sound. :)))
Come on, girl, pull. PULL! PULL!!
Great video.
No the fireman has got to much water in the boiler, hence she’s priming, I was on steam footplate through 1950/1960s and the driver would have your guts for garters, if that happened.
Aah nothing wrorse then a lazy armchair steam locamotive engineer expert with a beer in hand reclining watching youtube spewing what the engineer should haves, could haves, what if's, and if I am the armchair engineer and would have... instead of enjoying historic steam engine pass by....
Warning liberals like yourself will get steam power banned c as well use its poor emmisionssions causing climate change all from the arm chair steam engineering expert...
@SS Standartenfuhrer no grumpiness on my part, one happy camper here. However, clearly you are overly sensitive and very grumpy.
@SS Standartenfuhrer perfect, they have openings, government free shit unsustainable handouts, good to take advantage of... after all it us you're tax money they are wasting.
@@airgliderz I agree, as a one time fireman on another heritage line, the driver would have had my guts for garters in similar circumstances. Part of training for firemen is to maintain a suitable level of water in the boiler which this video shows is clearly not the case here.
“I think I can. I think I can. I think I can!”
Then "I thought I could, I thought I could..."
Marie Katherine There is no think, only do or do not
See! Its the little engine who could!!
Your saying applies to this one too: ua-cam.com/video/1svTT51YqHQ/v-deo.html.
All sound at first but see it come round the bend
In wonder if the people riding in the cars were more upset about possibly having to walk back down or worried that the whole train would start rolling backwards.
I have heard J-1's 2-10-4 drug down like that some timies to a complete stall. Lots of drama
It's funny how more people have watched this video than the entire population of Nunavut. In fact, more than 3 times as much.
It’s a novelty.
You can’t get enough heat in NWT to create steam...unless you’re really mad!
Where u at in nunavit
Thought I was seeing a news reel from the 50s, lol
I don’t know. I was thinking it might blow up ! Thank goodness the conductor knew the ropes. I probably would’ve pulled over and called triple A lol
Great video. 👍👍👍👍
Hi There it is Mr Cannadine T. Boxill-Harris, I have another interesting idea for most of you Class 508, Class 507, Class 313, Class 314 and that also is including those interesting Class 315 Fans out there, rather than scrapping most of those Class 508, Class 507, Class 313's Class 314's including the Class 315's maybe you guys can convert them and including the refurbishment into those Leyland 680 Engine, Volvo B10M Engine, Cummins M11 Engine, Gardner 6LXC Engine, Gardner 6LXB Engine, Gardner 8LXB Engine, Class 508 Class 507, Class 313's, Class 314's and the Class 315's and convert all of them into a 2 Carriages and Three Carriages of the Class 508, Class 507, Class 313's, Class 314's and that is including those Class 315's for most of us Class 314's and the Class 315's Diesel Train Fans out there Please? Are you still going to do this interesting type of Project for all of us out there Pretty PLEASE.
I can only assume too much steam pressure caused the regulator to discharge.
Safety valves you mean? The regualtro is the valve that allows steam into the cylinders.
With maximum torque at stall, it works best under severe loading.
Just great to watch!
Great driver experience opening the cold cylinder water release valves to relax over power to the wheels.
The cylinder cocks have been opened to prevent damage to the cylinders as water has been carried over from the boiler.
With this steep hill, the driver needs all the power he can get and opening the cylinder cocks reduces the power to the wheel, hence the serious slowing.
Thank you for your comment
At least it gave Harry and Ron an opportunity to catch up to the train in their flying car.
I thought, he had a hell of a fire built to climb the grade.. this caused an overpressure and the relief valves opened, until she cooled down a bit..
They need a higher grade coal if you ask me or a touch of Nitros Oxide.
Keep Puffin' Gus. x
So.....was this a classic case of The Little Engine That Could? All I heard was I KNOW I CAN, I KNOW I CAN! I KNOW I CAN!! I KNOW I CAN!!! I KNEW I COULD! I KNEW I COULD!! I KNEW I COULD!!! 😁
Is it just me or do others feel sorry for the loco aswell as the crew?
Love that sound
It seems to me that the driver never lost any control
Yep, it primed up with water and it carried over into the cylinders. Boiler a bit too full. But he made it up, just.
He blew off most of his head of steam before he began losing speed, he dumped it with every valve he could wide open, it was blowing steam straight ahead about 100 ft !
Hi Dick Thanks for the comment. The loco still had plenty of steam as evidenced by that coming rom the safety valve in front of the cab. The driver appears to have got water carried over into the cylinders which can cause serious problems. the driver has to open the cylinder relief valves to force the water out and close the regulator which would slow the engine especially on a steep hill like this one.
@@gricerman2054 I'm not familiar with trains but boilers I am I fix them, I know if you blow off that much head pressure you have lost alot of power, it seemed as if he was shutting down, I take your word for it though you know more about driving boilers than me lol, I used to be a high limit on big boilers my friend Dad was fixing at Mc Clellan AFB, If I forgot to blow off steam it would have taken out the entire hangar.
Probably too high water level in the boiler, the recovery was quick after blowing off and opening cylinder taps.
An interesting video and a serious case of an overfilled boiler causing priming....or was the TDS too high causing foaming? I guess not, the NYMR are pretty hot on their water treatment. I suspect that the fireman was a bit over enthusiastic at Grosmont and then kept putting water in to try to keep the loco quiet.
Excellent video!
THanks Keith.
To Hugo thanks for reply,still Q. Not sure what you mean by priming. Also was the load to light on the rails to get traction. Thank you
Hi James
Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders and as you may, or may not be aware, water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance caused by the water in the cylinder is not released serious damage can occur.
The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the water in the cylinder to be expelled and the pressure reduced. This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco. This also has the effect of reducing the power to the wheels hence the slowing of the train.
This type of steam locomotive has all its weight on mechanically 'driven', or linked, tires. So, it has a lot of tractive effort, and a lot of adhesion on the rails. If it had an engine truck, like a 2-8-2 or a 4-6-2 has, the engine truck being the lead truck just behind the pilot at the front of the locomotive, and/or a trailer truck, it would be much less. In fact, this is the one great problem with steam locomotives; they support too much of their weight on non-driven trucks, which makes it easier for the drivers to spin under great loads and effort.
Also, all steamers that I know of have what is called a 'snifter valve', or a vacuum break valve, which is most often found partway up the diagonal blast pipe that rises off the valve chest and enters the smoke box. If the cylinder cocks stick or otherwise malfunction, and the engineer detects foaming or 'carry-over' of too-high water in the boiler, he can open the snifters and help to prevent pressure that way. It's not as good as open cylinder cocks, but every bit could help when there is danger of a hydraulic ram. This is what was the danger here. The engine driver felt the locomotive's effort change, and the sound changed, so he knew he'd soon have the pistons ramming into a wall of water on either side of their motion. Instant piston fracture, rod fracture, and/or blow the heads off the cylinders.
Sniffing valves are to allow an air flow into cylinders/steam circuits with piston valves. Because pistons in are a tight fit in their cylinders the pumping action can create a partial vacuum when the regulator is closed. This creates a danger of smoke box gases being drawn back down the blast pipe the wrong way to destroy that vacuum, damaging the cylinders. Sniffing, or anti-vacuum valves, are positioned ahead of cylinders in the steam circuit to allow air to flow into them the ‘right’ way. Nothing to do with releasing pressure or water following a priming incident as they are in the wrong place. Cylinder cocks are your only hope there
Notice how the cattle get the h-l- out of the area. They know something isn't right!!
Seemed to recover quite quickly when they stopped priming the steam out the front
Hi Pauluk, Thank you for your comment.
Just to clarify what is happening, the driver is not actually priming the steam out the front.
Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders and as you may, or may not be aware, water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance caused by the water in the cylinder is not released serious damage can occur.
The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the water in the cylinder to be expelled and the pressure reduced. This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco. This also has the effect of reducing the power to the wheels hence the slowing of the train.
I hope this clarifies what it means to prime.
Best Regards
@Christopher Vagnone Hi Christopher, thank you for your comment and I am pleased it was helpful.
This question has been asked a few times and you are only the second person to respond. Thank you for taking the time to reply.
Regards
Peter
All together. I think I can, I think I can. Choo, Choo.
ha ha I loved that book when my mom read it to me. :)
Regards from Australia 🇦🇺.
Looked like an intentional boiler blowdown to clean the scale out.
Hi Michael
Thank you for your comment.
I don't think it is a boiler blow down, especially at the start of a climb at 1 in 49. Blow downs are usually carried out on shed and the steam emanates from under the cab area.
Hope you enjoyed the video
Regards
Peter
The engine was at full steam, pressure relief valves wailing. Perhaps too heavy a load.
Malcolm Abram I think they had to much water in the boiler the way it looked ,,, nice video , the relief valve was doin it’s thing for sure
@@johnsonford429 Good thought. More water, less steam volume, pressure drops more rapidly with each stroke.
Hi Malcolm
This engine regularly pulls this load up the hill. and as my description says, the engine probably has too much water in its boiler and is priming.
Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders and as you may, or may not be aware, water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance in the cylinder is not released serious damage can occur.
The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the pressure and water in the cylinder to be reduced This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco.
@@gricerman2054 Thank you for telling me this. It actually is very interesting. I appreciate it is a skilled job to run a steam locomotive.
@@gricerman2054 I guess because I'm used to watching American steam locomotives I was having a hard time understanding what was going on here. Seems like an odd design placement for cylinder cocks since it would be wetting the rails. At one point it looked like they slipped right after they opened the cocks. Locomotives I'm used to seeing eject water and steam to the side when the cylinder cocks are open. Again, I'm not familiar with this locomotive, but it appears to be a shared "discharge"... but there's no "chuffing" associated. That looks more like a blow down or a safety valve lifting to me, but from a weird location. Just a design difference with the cylinder cocks?
The cattle are getting the hell out of Dodge!
I'm with the cows. The engineer and the fireman weren't on the same page. Good recovery.
Nothing better sounding then a laboring steam engine
powerful beast!
Nice job by the Engineer not to overpower the wheels and start slipping. Key here was keep it moving and don’t spin.
At 00:38, when he comes out from behind that tree, it's obvious the cylinder cocks start to "Blow" before being "Opened"; cylinder cocks are made to do that.
nothing like steam power. Lugged down & kept pulling.
I think I can, I think I can, I think I can,...
I know I can, I know I can :-)
What is meant by "priming"? Can't guess. Looked to me like driver periodically opened cylinder drains to release liquid from cylinders. Would this engine not have superheater?
Hi Jacques thank you for your comment.
Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders and as you may, or may not be aware, water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance caused by the water in the cylinder is not released, serious damage can occur. The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the water in the cylinder to be expelled and the pressure reduced. This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco. This also has the effect of reducing the power to the wheels hence the slowing of the train.
I hope this clarifies things for you.
Regards
Peter
@@gricerman2054 IOW, a "clean" version of foaming. Fully understanding the tight fit of pistons to cylinder-heads and the incompressibility of liquid water breaking pistons/rods/heads, thus my phrase about the drains. Seems this engine was meant for short-distance low-speed switching (aka shunting) work, with no pilot truck (aka bogie), so it makes sense that it would not have a superheater, which would obviate really wet steam. How would the crew know if they were getting liquid-carryover, except they'd see raindrops coming out the stack? Been there, seen that, riding next the smokebox of an old saturated Baldwin. Thanks for the clarification, from a Yank.
@@jacquesblaque7728 Hi again Jacques. Interesting and knowledgeable reply as you seem to understand the possible problems. These locos were built, with superheaters, for heavy freight work hauling coal and minerals and were a very successful design. Just out of interest, There were 120 built 1913-1921 and the last was withdrawn in 1967.
I know of three main causes of priming: Foaming from the water treatment, Boiler overfilled and climbing a gradient in reverse where the water runs to the front of the boiler. Because of the repeated opening of the cylinder cocks, I would guess foaming might be the problem.
Keep safe in these troubled times
Dear sir thanks for your answer
On torque output. If I recall right
The formula is 3.14 (r)2 * air pressure, or in this case steem pressure,, not 100% sure here.
Can someone set me right here
That gives you the force on the piston rod, not the torque, at a specific pressure. With loco's tractive effort is the usual metric and if you Google tractive effort formula for steam loco, you will find what you want to know. It accounts for boiler pressure, cylinder bore, stroke and wheel diameter. It's an approximation at best. You multiply the result by 1.5 for 3 cylinder, and 2 for four cylinders. As for adhesion, well, ask the driver!
I can hear Scotty, "I just cant get enough powa captain"
Being an American, I just can't get over how odd British engines look.
Hi Steev O, thank you for your comment. It is an interesting viewpoint and we mostly tend to favour our own national engines.
This loco was originally built in 1913.
I think I can understand how you think they look odd.
Apart from them being much larger, I look at American steam locos and see that there is so much pipework and peripherals on view. This is also true of many European locos. British locos have most of that hidden away giving, to my eyes, a much more aesthetically pleasing look.
It could also be that the British loading gauge is so much more restrictive and locos have to be built to fit.
Regards
Peter
@@gricerman2054
You got a point about all the exposed plumbing on American locomotives.
I just watched some of the "46233 Duchess of Sutherland" footage and that's a very clean looking engine.
Have a good day.
The driver does a good job of steering the train. It must be tricky, and apparently requires a lot of physical effort.
Ha!
Beautiful area.
Is the second jet of steam a high pressure relief valve? It seemed like it let steam vent when it was heavily laboured.
Hi Ingrid, please see my reply to your earlier comment
@@gricerman2054 Thank you for the very clear explanation.
Not primed right but the engineer was great good job on his part
Hi Joseph, Thank you for your comment.
Just to clarify what is happening here.
Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders and as you may, or may not be aware, water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance caused by the water in the cylinder is not released serious damage can occur.
The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the water in the cylinder to be expelled and the pressure reduced. This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco. This also has the effect of reducing the power to the wheels hence the slowing of the train.
I hope this clarifies things for you.
Best Regards
@@gricerman2054 yes I know I'm aware what priming is.
Why did the driver release so much wasted steam, a bit unnecessary I would have thought, unless the driver wished to extend his drive.? Regards Smudger
"I think I can I think I can I think I can I think I can...…..
I was thinking the same thing !!
Why did he let out all his steam just as he hits the climb ?
Thank you for your comment
He was doing it to save his engine from serious damage as it was priming.
Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders and as you may, or may not be aware, water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance caused by the water in the cylinder is not released serious damage can occur. The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the water in the cylinder to be expelled and the pressure reduced. This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco. This also has the effect of reducing the power to the wheels hence the slowing of the train.
I hope this clarifies things a little
Regards
Peter
He kept the wheels from spinning. He did a fine job.
you can release sand to get a better grip, try doing that on a modern train
A U.P Big Boy would have no problem going up that steep hill
That huge monstrosity would never be able to negotiate the many tight turns and narrow valleys of British country railways.
It would have serious problems - it wouldn't make some of the corners or fit underneath the bridges
Why did the fireman open the cylinders drain valves open during the climb. Ex 50s fireman...
Overfilled the boiler it looks like
my dad was a fireman in euston.1955 t0 57..he was from Denbigh .north wales..loads went to London.the old man worked at Willesden and Cricklewood..remember him saying him and fred bense[driver.neasden]would go to crewe out of Willesden works and theyd take water on at sears crossing in Buckinghamshire [8 years before the train robbery]
he passed awauy few years back and he told me to sell his[and my grandads lms lantern..used to get to the signal box..got 40 quid it was made in 1917] bit history..another good story ..my youngest lad was about 3..he loved Thomas the tank ..And the scotsman came to llandudno junctuion ..sean was crying[noise and power]the old man went up to the tender and deep in conversation[in welsh]with the fireman and driver..he beconed me over..my lad was sobering less, and we got on the footplate ..couldn't believe it..all these bill oddie type[enthusaists ]were like we pay a fortune and get up..the old man had got us on because the bangor driver was from bangor and had worked out of euston… thought provoking
I have the same question. The drain valve should be open at start when the cyclinder is "cold" so condensed water does not accumulate. After, you just loose power by reducing the chimney draft ... And by loosing pressure to the low pressure cylinders if it is a coumpound machine.
I wonder if the loco driver vented steam to impress the viewers?
Nope it was to expell water carried over into the cylinders through priming. To prevent damage to the cylinderd
What is the meaning of prime?
Gricerman
2 months ago
Hi Joe, Thank you for your comment.
Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders and as you may, or may not be aware, water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance caused by the water in the cylinder is not released serious damage can occur.
The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the water in the cylinder to be expelled and the pressure reduced. This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco. This also has the effect of reducing the power to the wheels hence the slowing of the train.
I hope this clarifies what it means to prime.
Best Regards
Show less
A tad too much water in the boiler and the crew did the right thing because as soon as she’s on more level ground again she’s away
There is no level ground on this stretch of railway. It is all uphill (mainly 1 in 49) from shortly after the loco is in full view until Goathland, then a little less steep for a couple more miles
No level ground there!
@@profatkwvr not for a few miles
Please explain what priming is please someone...and then how it happened here, if you would be so kind.
Hi Tommy
Thank you for your comment
Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders and as you may, or may not be aware, water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance caused by the water in the cylinder is not released serious damage can occur.
The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the water in the cylinder to be expelled and the pressure reduced. This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco. This also has the effect of reducing the power to the wheels hence the slowing of the train.
@@gricerman2054 Thanks for the explanation of priming!
How can they tell that this happening? By gauges? By sound?
@@fredbentley4944 Several ways, most locos have pressure relief valves in the cylinders as well as draincocks and the driver would heat these opening, also the sound at the chimney changes from a bark to a wooffle and plenty of water comes out of the blast pipe with the steam showering the loco.
@@fredbentley4944 Hi Fred. The sound of the exhaust changes from a bark to a more muffled woofing sound, power drops off and the loco movement (the feel of the loco) changes. You can see the exhaust appears to change from the chimney. See also my video 901 priming.
Brilliant job.
He didn't give'er the gundy.
Was this engine pulling to much for the grade.trains are suppose to go where their is track and where sent j.j. 8-15-19
No . These engines were designed for heavy freight . This was nothing .the engine was priming and that is the only way to avoid damage
Can anyone tell me what the
Torque output of the average
Steam engine is
Hi Ed. Thank you for your comment.
There is no average steam engine and no simple method of calculating torque output. Most information of this kind relates to tractive effort which will depend on the following factors:
Piston diameter in inches, Piston stroke in inches, Operating pressure in pounds per square inch and diameter of the driving wheels.
The tractive effort quoted for this locomotive is 28,800 pounds.
Regards
Peter
in trouble ? BS
beauty!
Thank you. I'm glad you like it
Looks like she split a piston.
Hi Robert. It is due to water being carried over into the cylinders which is called priming and can cause serious damage if not actioned as the crew have done.
Where t'heck is Esk Valley and Goathland and where's the problem? Nothing explained.
Hi Tina. Thank you for your comment, and I presume you are not from England.
I hope the following will help clarify my video content for you.
As it mentions at the end of my description, the scene is on a section of The North Yorkshire Moors Railway. This is situated in the north east of England.
The problem relates to the locomotive priming as it starts on the steep incline.
Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders. Water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance caused by the water in the cylinder is not released serious damage can occur. The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the water in the cylinder to be expelled and the pressure reduced. This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco. This also has the effect of reducing the power to the wheels hence the slowing of the train.
Kind regards
Why is the smoke" from main stack so white, obviously they are not burning wood or coal? thanks. Makes me think that like a blown head gasket in a ice engine ,the water is getting into the exhaust of the firebox and creating so much white smoke that the regular black smoke is obscured? ua-cam.com/video/FH6knmorArw/v-deo.html shows another engine with occasional white smoke vs the black norm? Thanks.
On a diff subject: Great reply below re: priming (MMichael Heath)
It is a mixture of smoke and condensed steam. The chimney is the exhaust outlet for the used steam from the cylinders as well as the smoke from the fire which is coal.
Not sure what "prime" means - can you describe?
Priming is when water is carried over from the boiler into the cylinders and as you may, or may not be aware, water can not be compressed and if the excess resistance in the cylinder is not released serious damage can occur.
The cylinders have drain cocks and the crew can open these which will allow the pressure and water in the cylinder to be reduced This is what you can see happening in this video. When the crew realise it is happening, they open these drain cocks, jets of steam and water are forced through the relief pipes at the front of the loco.
I hope this clarifies this for you
Gricerman .....thanks for the explanation.
@@gricerman2054 also a bloody good deicer for the rails. try doing that, on a modern electric or diesel
Excelente imagen felicitaciones
I never saw any truble