Great video and it's nice to see British engines being put to the test along with their crews. There's a prevailing attitude in Australia that British mainlines are as flat as the proverbial billiard table. In Australia in 2018 a loco climbed a five mile bank at 1 in 40 unassisted. Think of the Worth Valley Railway but 1 in 40 all the way with four tunnels. The uncut video is 3642 climbs Cowan Bank here on YT and yes the man who took the video didn't stop filming in the tunnels.
Greetings from an old expat from Denver Colorado USA! Absolutely wonderful pic's of British steam in action. Thank you for this outstanding video and what about the work of these four crews; not one slip! I emigrated in 1967 first Canada then the U.S. in 1975, but I have never forgotten my train spotting adventures and my love of steam engines. It's truly awesome to see the preservation and dedication to these superb locomotive's. Thanks again for your efforts in presenting the power on display! John L.
What a lovely message John, thank you so much. I love Denver and the mountains of Colorado and am reminded of a wonderful private tour my wife and I did on a Harley Davidson about 8 years ago when we visited all the Hot Springs over nearly three weeks of riding, spectacular scenery and such nice people. Best regards, Alan
Great stuff, good presentation style and the shot of the two blackies, wow, great locos filling the screen, great event, great videoing of it, thanks very much, Pete
Cor, I can relax now!!! I don't care if we've seen them before, when they're put together like this, what a truly magnificent sight and sound to behold. Top marks to Tangmere driver, no embarrassing slipping noises!! Thanks Alan, another great compilation.
Hello Bob and thank you once again for such wonderful support, I really appreciate it. Hopefully I can film "the real thing" next week!! Best wishes, Alan
Steam locomotives really are like animals aren’t they? You can literally HEAR the power these giant engines have! The whistle sounds like they’re talking to each other, the exhaust sounds of the engine sounds like panting and you can imagine the side rods looking like legs taking one step at a time 2:25 “I can do it!” “I can do it!” “I can do it!” “I can do it!” 9:32 “Must not give up!” “Must not give up!” “We can do it!” “We can do it!” 12:32 “Yes I can!” “Yes I can!” “Yes I can!” “Yes I can!”
Just superb. Thanks for sharing the insights into the working of the two Bulleid Pacifics up Exeter Bank. Very interesting to see the Newquay branch included alongside some more well-known inclines. Hope both of you are keeping well.
The first three clips were outstanding, and the detailed explanations - missing from some others' UK rail videos - terrific. Who could ever fail to appreciate the beautiful 'Black 5' locos (a little under the tractive effort of our R class in Victoria, Oz) and the copper-topped GWR 'Castle' class? You are the home of railways. Amazing how many gunzels (rail enthusiasts) plus general motorists steam attracts there, but in the first two clips you were almost alone. With that second one, in Oz we'd be likely to share a position with that other chap with the tripod, thus ensuring neither you nor he had another person in your footage.
Hello Edmund and thank you for your kind and most interesting comments, they are very much appreciated. The first location is probably one of the busiest on the whole of the U.K. Network and photographers have to turn up at least a couple of hours before the train to get a decent shot. I was probably with about 50 others (honestly!) and unthinkable in the current situation but still risked by many recently. I have to lower a microphone right down the bridge to get away from all the "still" photographers chat and clicking, hence the blast from the exhaust as the loco passes beneath. Best regards, Alan
Great video. Wonder that the climbs are 1 vs 42 (23,8 promille) or 1 vs 37 (27 promille) on the main lines? Have to say that ten wheeler Nunney Castle does amazing job. Castles must be the best ones of their size.
Fabulous video, get tensed up hoping there's no problems on the climb then when it flattens out my shoulders drop. You really feel the power. Thanks for that ❤
Thanks for another great video. Especially impressive is Nunney Castle, accomplishing much of the climb with nothing more than a little water vapour issuing from the chimney!
Thank you for your kind and very much appreciated feedback Bentley. Castles are my favourite climbers and probably the best "all rounder" the G.W.R. ever produced as in later days they even proved to be exceptional freight locos!. Best regards, Alan
Hmm, it's deceptive. The loco is being fired well and there's little smoke. The steam is not condensing into clouds because it's probably a hot day but if you attempted to peer down that chimney it would probably blow your head off. You'd be guillotined, in effect, and who wants that? Nice to hear a Castle being given a bit of welly at low speed and there's an awful lot of stuff exploding from that chimney, hence the wonderful noise.
This video is awesome but when I see steam locomotives having a hard time on these hills I always wonder how they did it way back when even if some of these train had three locomotives it seems like they would struggle
The slogs of King Edward 1st and Nunney Castle are my favourites out of all four. It seems nothing, not even a steep incline, will ever defeat them. I wonder if a King and Castle double-header has ever tackled a steep incline. Of all four, The Great Western Sloggers are the best. Long live God's Wonderful Railway.
A King and a Castle is rather unlikely but I have B& W photos in various books showing a King and a Modified Hall, a King and a Star (a kind of baby Castle) and a load of other interesting 4-6-0 combinations. A King and a Hall or Grange is a typical combination. In each case the load was 13-15 coaches. I have been up Hemerdon myself in a big train. Two Halls. They didn't exert themselves unduly, the schedule not demanding it.
Interesting. On the two black fives, the connecting rods were not synchronised. Do they have different size driving wheels or was one slipping? I may be wrong of course, but I've watched it umpteen times before asking!
Hello Steve and thank you for such a good question. As you probably know, the locomotive wheels are fitted with steel tyres, which wear over time and change the profile into an unsafe condition. At this point all the driving wheels are re-profiled as a "set" on a wheel lathe so they remain the same size. If this removes (say) 1 inch of material, the distance covered per rev will reduce by approx. 30 inches and will soon put the loco out of sync with another which has newer tyres, which is probably the case here. Eventually new tyres have to be fitted and this usually takes place on the South Devon Railway where wheel maintenance is a speciality using equipment from the old GWR workshops at Swindon, see here: www.southdevonrailway.co.uk/special-services/engineering/. Regards, Alan
@@Steamclips According to one of my books the wheels of a Castle, which are 6' 8½" when new, were allowed to wear down to just under 6' 5" provided the flange wear is not excessive, before they were cut off and new ones fitted. This would destroy any synchrony rather quickly. Also, when I was at Didcot helping a friend (the late Bob Fry) with the restoration of pannier 3650 I measured the wheels which should be 4' 7½" and found they were a whole 2 inches undersize. He also told me that the cylinders had to be re-bored (they were a bit oval) and the new diameter was 17 7/8 in instead of the nominal 17½. These changes would have put the tractive effort up by over 8%. Not everything is as per your Ian Allan ABC. Take it with a pinch of salt, or perhaps sand.
Hi Adrian, sorry for the late reply, I have been off-line for 4 weeks. The black smoke in the first engine is because coal is being thrown into the fire whilst the engine is working hard, and many ex-firemen (including the fireman on the second loco?) would say that that was not a good thing to do as a lot of coal dust and coal burning at low temperature gets sucked straight up the chimney! Kind regards, Alan
A bit late now but I hadn't come across this before. Fabulous filming, as always, but in particular the ability to show on film just how steep these banks are. This is not often achieved. What I do not fully understand is where the 420 tons load on the first two clips comes from, with 8 coaches for the King and 9 for the Castle-or is that including the engines? With a Class 47 on the back, I was behind 4472 and a Black 5 (we used to call them Mickeys in Lancashire) from Plymouth to Exeter and back a couple of years ago. I could not work out whether the Diesel was doing any work but we positively flew up Hemerdon and Dainton almost as if they were not there, so I suspected cheating. And can someone tell me about the old days, please. I knew little of the GWR being from manchester. Were the principal expresses banked or maybe piloted up Hemerdon and Dainton?
Hello Nigel and thank you for your kind and interesting questions and comments. Take a closer look and you will find that the King is hauling 9 coaches, which is standard for anything class 7 and above (unassisted) on a Royal Duchy tour. Load is taken by Network Rail as 40.5 tons per loaded coach and 55 tons per loaded tender, giving 420 tons. Express trains were usually piloted over the banks between Newton Abbot and Plymouth. For really heavy (summer holiday) expresses and goods, bankers were also used on "down" services up to the sidings (now removed) after Dainton Tunnel and on "up" trains to the sidings at the top of Hemerdon Bank. Of course, there were always exceptions and there are reports of heroic slogs by locos (especially Castles) who for one reason or another were forced to go it alone! Best regards, Alan
@@Steamclips Thank you very much Alan for your very interesting information. Two things: 1. I cannot count! and 2. I now understand the loading as per Network Rail. I'll tell you what confused me. As a long time afficionado of the Somerset and Dorset, the official load limit over the Mendips for Black 5s and SR Pacifics unassisted was 8 coaches and for the 7Fs and 9Fs 10 . This was supposed to equate with 270/280 tons and about 340 tons respectively. This did not include the loco tender of course. But these limits were often exceeded. Peter Smith, a passed fireman, took the final Pines Express with a 9F unassisted over the Mendips with either 420 or 450 tons behind the tender, depending on who you believe, which I think was 12 coaches or maybe 13 and he was 24 at that time! Sorry if you know all this but perhaps you can see my confusion about present day tonnage calculations. Thanks also for the stuff about pilots and bankers in the old days because some of those trains were pretty heavy not withstanding coaches being slipped. Best wishes, Nigel
Very much from the old days because I'm 79. Passenger trains up the south Devon banks were always piloted but goods and empty stock were generally banked. Piloting means you don't have to stop to attach a banker, which his useful because speeds at the bottom were fairly high (Hemerdon about 50 mph, 50-55 through Totnes westbound). The load limits for unpiloted trains were pretty high, 11 for a King, 9 for a Castle or County and 8 for a Hall or Grange. There is very little to spare with these loads.
Thanks for your kind request Henry, we will have to see. Better still will be to film steam coming out of lockdown, which thankfully looks imminent here in Torbay. Best regards, Alan
The trailing load behind the "King" on Hemerdon bank is NOT 420 tons, as that would require an assisting locomotive. There are only 9 x Mk1's behind the tender, not 13. There are "Load Limits" for each route and loco type, in case you didn't know. I used to be an Exeter driver in BR days, so I've driven all sorts of trains over the "Devon Banks" As with the King, the Castle climbing Upwey bank out of Weymouth is NOT hauling 420 tons, as again the load is limited to 7 x Mk2 + 2 x Mk1 coaches, total 9 coaches. Mk1's weighed between 27 & 32 tons depending on what type of Mk1 it was, and what type of bogies it is sitting on. Mk2/2a/2b/2c were 24-28 tons. Passengers add weight at the average of 16 persons per ton. So 7 x Mk 2's at an average 26 tons per coach = 182 tons, 2 x Mk1's at average 30 tons = 60 tons + roughly 3 tons per coach for passengers is 9 x 3 tons = another 27 tons. So the all up weight is 182+ 60 + 27 = TOTAL of around 269 tons !!!!!! The 2 x Black 5's climbing out of Newquay have a trailing load of 13 coaches. 2 x Mk2, 10 x Mk1 & a Mk1 Pullman (total 385 tons). Plus passengers in 12 (excl Buffet) an extra 36 tons. The class 47 Diesel at the rear appears from the sound to be adding at least some of its 2,500hp so can't be included in the Load. So the total is in reality only 411 tons. As for the two Bulleids up the 1 in 37 from St.David's to Central, the film doesn't reveal the load. But it's certainly a slog, as you can't get a run at the hill, starting from St.David's. And there is the added problem of two trap points up the bank. So no rolling backwards to try and restart if you stall. Very nasty. I even had to go out one morning and take a Class 37 (1,750hp) up the hill to rescue a Class 50 (2,700hp) with 9 Mk2's that had slipped to a halt on frosty rails with the 06.30 to Waterloo !!!
Hello James and thank you for your interesting and detailed comment/criticism. I must say that you are not the first ex-railwayman to make these points in the comments section of this clip. The load I quote for each clip is as published by Network Rail in the "train information" section of the Realtime Trains schedule for each of the tours featured. The Tour Operator in most instances also use the same load data in their customer information. The elements of the load are made up as follows: 40.5 tons for a loaded Mk1/2 coach and 55 tons for a loaded (large) tender, so for a nine coach train the load is 9 x 40.5 + 55 = 419.5 tons. These "standardised" elements originate from B.R. Engineering and were developed during the "Modernisation" era of B.R. in order to calculate and compare D.B.H.P. across various traction types and are still in use by Network Rail today, so this is nothing new. I am always delighted to hear from Engine-men (past & present) and you have my utmost respect for the comments you make, however, I feel duty bound to adhere to the "official" load figures as published by Network Rail despite the arguments you make. Kind regards, Alan
How its possible dual steam loco operation how the pressure valve works , or it seems like mued coupling in diesel electrics ??? Pls explain sir kindly
Hi and thank you for your question. Scientifically speaking a train is a "series" event i.e. one behind the other, which means that there is a cumulative effect of power sources and no conflict. One loco could be pulling at full power and the next at half power and the cumulative power is 1.5 of total. If you have power sources side by side (parallel) as in (say) horses pulling a chariot, you have conflicting power if all the horses do not pull the same and this gives a real problem to the chariot driver. I hope I have understood your question and given a satisfactory answer. Regards, Alan
@@Steamclips yes correct Mr. Alan my question is give you another view the pressure throttle is given by another behind lead horse seperate by loco pilot right
The pull is not synchronised - it doesn't need to be. The locos each pull as hard as they think is necessary, relying on the experience of the drivers. Even if the driving wheels were nominally identical in diameter they would not be so in practice because of different wear rates and any synchrony would be lost within a few revolutions. The pull is quite small compared with the weight of the train and there's always a bit of "give" in the couplings.
Hi and thank you for your valued comment. You are right and not great for passengers either. Luckily this tunnel is very short and most tunnels are traversed at higher speeds with less clag. Imagine when the London Underground first opened and was operated by unmodified steam engines! Kind regards, Alan
I have 1 question, Despite their numbering being rather different, ie 44 and 45. Was there any particular difference between them? I realise they're both Black 5's but are there any differences that are notable?
Hello Michael and thank you for your valued comment. I am a little puzzled however, as parts 3 (especially) & 4 both feature vesuvian pillars of smoke! Regards, Alan
Right, clip 4 indeed managed mt. Vesuvius, the lead engine in clip 3 was close but only for a short time. If you check videos with vintage east germany steam, the cinder eruption was common due to the low quality coal often used, or oil burners opened full regardless of the possible air intake......
You run with a thin fire. This is a bit risky because it might develop a hole and the draught would go through that rather than the main firebed. A good experienced fireman, as in steam days, could do it, though.
9/10 carriages? up what sort of a gradient? and that with 2 engines! Why such a slog? Was this normal in pre BR & BR times of just because its steam traction. Would diesel or a modern elctrified train do any better?
The Hemerdon climb by the King was quite different from the practice in steam days. The train comes into view doing a good 30 mph and tops the bank at about 15 mph and is altogether pretty energetic. In steam days the speed would have been allowed to fall rapidly on the lower part of the bank and for the rest of it the engine would have been slogging away at 12-15 mph or even less. The schedule demanded nothing more and trying to rush it may bring the pressure down, resulting in a stall. BTW the 9 coaches cannot possibly weigh 420 tons. The true figure is about 100 tons less; 320 to 330, say. Still quite a heave. In steam days Kings were allowed to take 11 unassisted (about 385 tons) and I have log of one of these with a minimum speed of 18 mph. The fireman would have busy, shall we say. Thanks for a well-produced vid reminding us oldies (77) that there's nothing better than seeing a steam loco given a bit of welly.
Hi and thank you for your kind, interesting and much appreciated comments. The calculations I use for load use B.R's established figures for load i.e. 40.5 tons for a laden Mk1/2 coach and 55 tons for a laden "large" tender. These weights were established (in part) in order to calculate D.B.H.P. (Developed Brake HorsePower) when B.R. were trying to compare power across all types of locomotive at the end of steam in order to specify power requirements for "Modernisation". What "laden" means is difficult to ascertain but taken that Royal Duchy Tours are invariably "sell-out" (they are probably the best value tour out there!) I would suggest that the load per coach (at least) meets the B.R. criteria and a 600 gallon G.W.R. tender (a significant part of drawbar load) which has just been topped-up in Plymouth, is easily 55 tons. Taken together, this gives a total load on the drawbar of 420 tons (rounded) and is, in fact, the load assumed by Network Rail and published both by Realtime Trains and the Tour operator for the run featured. Kind regards, Alan
@@Steamclips Well, thanks for your complimentary remarks but I fear your weight estimates are very much on the high side and you really cannot include a tender as part of the load because without it the engine goes nowhere. The official weight of a fully loaded King tender is 46.7 tons which comprises 4000 gallons of water and 6 tons of coal. It's unlikely the weight is much different from the official figure, unlike the King itself which has a nominal weight of 89 tons but all of them weighed quite a bit more than that, up to 95 tons. It was an officially-sanctioned fiddle to get over the axle-load limits. As for train weights, when 5043 took 9 up Hemerdon in great style the weight of the coaches+passengers was given as 348 tons and is about the heaviest train that a Castle has taken up Hemerdon. None of this really matters, of course. The loads were heavy, but not maxima, and the climbs were good. I'd still like to see a King with 11 up Hemerdon as long as I wasn't the fireman. BTW DBHP stands for Drawbar Horsepower, i.e. what's left to pull the train after the engine has got itself along.
@@Rosie6857 Hi again. I don't get notification of "replies" and have just come across yours by chance, therefore sorry for the delay as I like to respond where possible. Yes it is true that the Kings tender is actually 8.3 tons short of the 55 average that B.R. decided on. I have been fortunate enough to work with a number of ex-railwaymen from all parts of the railway over the years. Many years ago I worked with an Ex-Senior B.R. Engineer who was involved with the Modernisation Programme back in the early 50's and as I was a young Engineer with an interest in steam locomotives, he shared much of the methodology used back then and this is where my information comes from. He explained that calculation of true Drawbar Horsepower is extremely complex, starting with the horsepower produced by the boiler and working through the rest of the locomotive. They decided to simply compare types by comparing time (speed) to pull a given load up a given gradient and (by coincidence or not?) using the same nomenclature DBHP: called this Developed Brake Horsepower which over time (not sure how long) became accepted as a "practical" Drawbar Horsepower. If you don't already know, the equation became: grav load lbs x 1.002 x speed m.p.h. / 375 where gravitational load is 1/ gradient and 1.002 is the coefficient of friction of wheels on rail. The standard loads, including tender! (don't shoot the messenger!) being as I have previously stated. So, at 1 in 42 the gravitational load in the video is roughly 10 tons, the difference of 8.3 tons in static tender weight divided by 42 therefore becomes less important. Using the calculation for the video, the King is producing roughly 1400 DBHP, quite a bit short of her maximum of 2000! I can tell that you have a lot of practical experience and I respect that very much. My lifetime interest has been academic (sprinkled with an unhealthy amount of romanticism!) and although we probably have different backgrounds, we clearly both have the love of steam and long may we be able to enjoy it. Kind regards, Alan
@@Steamclips Thanks for your kind reply. The difficulty with assessing the King climb is the fact that the train is quite noticeably slowing down and acceleration (or deceleration) is a very large factor in working out drawbar horsepower, even on the level. All we can really do is make informed guesses. I wouldn't quibble with your figure of 1400 DBHP but just can't see a King producing 2000 DBHP at that speed because of the long cut-off (about 50%) which produces a glorious noise but is extravagant in steam and there's a limit to what the boiler can produce and what the fireman (or two) can shovel. BTW my background is not railway. I'm a 77-yr-old retired industrial chemist with a lifetime interest in steam locos, what they can do and what they sound like. A lot of reading, observing and playing with numbers, you could say. FWIW I'm a Londoner made entirely of Welsh stuff but which hat I wear here is not important but might explain my strange username because my real name is Tudor Hughes. Best wishes. May your axleboxes run cool!
Thank you for your question John. Simply put and as I currently understand; the leading locomotive (Pilot) is in control of the train, especially braking, and communication between crews (which used to be done by whistle codes) is usually by shortwave handsets (Walky Talky) or mobile phone but (usually) only if something out of the ordinary happens. Watch from 7:57 here ua-cam.com/video/Y_e0MSzNAM4/v-deo.html where you can see the Pilot taking charge of the depart. Regards, Alan
I've noticed in the Nunney Castle clip that the train emerging from Bincombe Tunnel is not the same as the one that went in. Some underground magic is going on. There are a number of giveaways. Nunney has lost its smokebox numberplate and reporting-number frame and the consist of the train is different. Also the speed on emerging from the tunnel is a little faster than when it went in and I don't think that would happen on the constant 1 in 52 through the tunnel. Never mind; a legitimate deception. It's a well-shot vid of a Castle with 9 hammering up the bank to Bincombe Tunnel, so thanks.
Thank you again for your kind feedback and for your astute observation, although you could have saved yourself the sleuthing by reading the description where I explain that it is two clips and give you the links to the original posts! Kind regards, Alan
Another great 'put together' Alan, as Iv'e said in previous posts 'I know how it feels to be on the footplate in just this situation', certainly a 'twitching occation'. The driver showing his skills to keep things moving at all costs, the fireman thinking, 'i could be in for a long walk to the box, maybe'? The childs story 'I think I can, I think I can, I know I can' comes to mind .. lol. atvb t ..
Hi Terry and thank you for your kind feedback and sharing your "insider" experience, it's nice to be reminded of the difficulties of ordinary life in the days before mobile phones &etc.!. Best regards, Alan
1:40 must be in 1st gear with all that rpm and no speed! 2:44 you can see the front end swing with each piston slogging. 9:00 smoke screen so highway traffic doesn’t stop and gawk.
Hi and thank you for your interesting remark. A 9F with its smaller wheel diameter would make a much easier job of course, a bit like cycling up a hill in low gear compared to using a high gear (like a passenger loco with large wheels). Kind regards, Alan
Hello Phil and thank you for your kind and very much appreciated comments. As for your question: you need to think of anything working (locomotives) on one side of a tug-o-war verses anything not working (the load) on the other side. Just as in a tug-o-war, it doesn't matter how each side is made up and how different participants weigh or how hard they are pulling, all that matters is the combined effects of each side. This is known as a series power chain. So it doesn't matter if different loco's are putting out different powers and it doesn't matter how the load is made up. All that matters is that all the locomotives, wherever they are in the series chain, are pulling enough to overcome the gravitational and frictional effects of the load (which includes the locomotive tenders of course!) trying to resist that pull. I hope this explains. Best regards, Alan (Retired Engineer)
Great compilation. Must admit I’m having a bit of difficulty with the tonnages quoted - a loaded MK1 or 2 vehicles is 35 tons? So 9 x 35 = 315t in the first clip, but you quote 420t.
Hi and thank you for your kind and much appreciated comment. Your question is regularly asked and is a case of 'don't shoot the messenger'! The figures I use are as used by Network Rail, published as the official load on sites such as Realtime Trains &etc. and actually originate from the days of B.R. "Modernisation" which gives 40.5 tons per coach + 55tons for the tender i.e. for a 9 coach train: 9 x 40.5 + 55 = 420 tons. Best regards, Alan
YAWN!!! you should check out videos of the N&W 611 going up the Saluda Pass in Saluda, NC. In one video it stall and stopped and had to start from a stand still on the steepest grade in the United States. MOST IMPRESSIVE! There is even a railroad published training video on the hazards, dynamics, and techniques involved in getting up AND over the peak (it's steep on both sides) Power is the least of the issues. And traction takes a back seat to the dangers of decoupling when a very long heavy train is half over the peak. If you only have an engine pulling from the front then a brute force disconnect becomes a very real possibility.
To put it in British terms, Saluda is a 1 in 21 gradient, and 611 had over 500 tons of coaches behind her when she pulled the grade. I was, however, trying to avoid belittling our British brethren in such fashion.
As the first railways in the world, the British loading gauge is much smaller than say, in the U.S. or Canada. The early engines were tiny and tunnels and track curves were laid down accordingly. This limited the size of engines which would be developed later by the great British loco engineers. Our engines look more elegant than most around the world though, with a few exceptions.
I wish I lived in that red building in the thumbnail and had a room with a view of the track. Not many people around, just a view of the train on a foggy morning.
Fantastic! Not being an expert, I'm assuming the drivers have to be very skilled here to avoid blowing the fire right out of the loco through the chimney! Is it full regulator and no cut off? Do they have to worry about stuff like that?
Full regular yes, cut off will be around the 50% mark in would expect. Biggest problem they face in these climbs is wheel slop, if the engines slip and its not caught quickly they will destroy themselves like 60532 did at Durham many moons ago.
You're spoiling us, Alan - a good lash-up from you, many thanks. Makes me wonder why no-one invented gears for them (that shows my ignorance, eh). I 'translated' 1 in 37 into how we'd see it over here: 2.7%. That's steep for what is a main line... is the curve factored into the gradient? In the Exeter clip, was Braunton used as a pusher to avoid strain on the couplings, or was it to make it easy to unhitch her? Gonna have to watch this again, and again, and ag.....
Hi and thank you for your kind comments and questions. Steam locomotives do in fact have the equivalent effect of a gearbox through valve cut-off, read about it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutoff_(steam_engine) . The tight curve definitely adds to the effective load because of flange friction on the rails. Braunton pushing from the rear reduces this by lifting the load off the train. Both locomotive crews are at all times aware of not "overdoing it" and causing a catasrophic slip. Best regards, Alan
Hi and thank you for your kind and amusing feedback. Suggest you read about GWR 6000 King George V visit to B&O Centenary Celebrations in 1927, where the "cute little engine" amazed and out performed the B&O traction even with "poor" American coal! Best regards, Alan
Hi, I am sorry you got this mischievous reply, a slightly tipsy friend had my phone and was watching one of the videos. You are right, the diesel could have assisted sooner but it relies on the steam crew to request it and they obviously didn't until it was almost too late! Thank you for your valued question and apologies once again. Kind regards, Alan
9 bogies behind king & castle = around 310 tons gross not 420tons! Max permitted for a king unaided up Hemerdon was 9 bogies. Bit easier these days also due to roller bearings. 420 tons unaided would have killed em both stone dead. 🙂 A West Country was allowed 8 bogies & a Merchant Navy 9 bogies up Hemerdon unaided.🙂
Hello Dave and thank you for your valued comments regarding loads, you are not the first by any means. I must assume that you have not read my description where I explain in detail the "official" load figures, if that is so, please take a look. You will see therefore that I am merely the "messenger" for N.R. and B.R. before them. Kind regards, Alan
@@Steamclips Hello Alan, thank you for your reply. I wasn’t having a critical dig, jus a perspective that those official load figures are incorrectly stated because they’ve added the weight of the engines concerned which is misleading. I guess they work on the principle that the engine has to lift its own weight as well. BR never did this because without a dynamometer car you had no idea what the true weight & rolling resistance of the engine was which can be a significant factor. For example an unconverted MN ran more freely than the converted MN. So simply put it’s what’s hung on the drawbar that counts. It is nice to see that common sense is starting to prevail & they are respecting the BR loading figures as stated for each class of engine over a particular road. 34067 was overloaded on the strength that 34046 was running tender first. If she had stalled 46 wouldn’t have been able to keep the train moving. The driver would have had to watch out for priming if he opened up too hard. The fireman making sure the engine didn’t blow off & lift the water. If 34046 had been nose up then a better climb would have ensued as there would be less fear of priming. 11 on behind acWC in BR days would have had a pilot engine & possibly 1 or 2 engines banking. WC’s were only permitted 6 bogies up that incline unaided I believe from memory.🙂
@@tgk300xx4 As I explain in the description, these are conventional loads passed down from British Railways and still used by Network Rail in their computer models today. Regards, Alan
@@Steamclips You are welcome Alan, it has always suprised me that NR don't try to accurately estimate the total weight. I always work on 36t for a loaded mk1 or 2 unless it's a Met Cam pullman then I go for 39 and 44t for a mk3 sleeper.
My Simple comm ent Wonderful Su perb Capturing Ne ver seen before pa rticularly the third one a Dual power hauled train which almost came to st andstill but recove red
@Steamclips Further details of my Railway Biography Presently running 82 nd age started loving trains right from 1954 accus toned to all three type s of locos Steam Diesel and Electric travelled all over India 3 times during 1960 to 62 except parts of Tamil Naadu and full Kerala Retired as Chief Accounts Auditor on 31 3 2001 Presently living at Mysore Palace City of South India
that is the difference between Diesel and Steam: you can archieve more with steam, because if the diesel run´s on notch 8(USA) ,that it´s then, die steamengine is designed for more power..The constructions of the steam age had always some % more power in reserve...just without CAD...
1 in 50 - my granny would breeze up that on her bicycle! Much of the power used must be wasted on heating up the rails as the wheels slip all the time.
... Ah but would Granny breeze up a 1 in 50 pulling Grandad, let alone 400 - 700 tons? Rails are the most efficient way of hauling loads, even more so than on water and although a steam locomotive is a very inefficient machine, the power it develops is very efficiently deployed.
It's short of steam because it's GWR, it it? Are all GW engines short of steam, and at all times, including these? Look, GWR locos are magic and they don't actually need steam - they just go, and make a joyful sound.
Great video and it's nice to see British engines being put to the test along with their crews. There's a prevailing attitude in Australia that British mainlines are as flat as the proverbial billiard table. In Australia in 2018 a loco climbed a five mile bank at 1 in 40 unassisted. Think of the Worth Valley Railway but 1 in 40 all the way with four tunnels. The uncut video is 3642 climbs Cowan Bank here on YT and yes the man who took the video didn't stop filming in the tunnels.
Greetings from an old expat from Denver Colorado USA! Absolutely wonderful pic's of British steam in action. Thank you for this outstanding video and what about the work of these four crews; not one slip! I emigrated in 1967 first Canada then the U.S. in 1975, but I have never forgotten my train spotting adventures and my love of steam engines. It's truly awesome to see the preservation and dedication to these superb locomotive's. Thanks again for your efforts in presenting the power on display! John L.
What a lovely message John, thank you so much. I love Denver and the mountains of Colorado and am reminded of a wonderful private tour my wife and I did on a Harley Davidson about 8 years ago when we visited all the Hot Springs over nearly three weeks of riding, spectacular scenery and such nice people. Best regards, Alan
The first two engines , steam, minimal smoke and working efficiently, top crews, great vid.
Thank you for your kind and much appreciated feedback Barry. Best regards, Alan
Great stuff, good presentation style and the shot of the two blackies, wow, great locos filling the screen, great event, great videoing of it, thanks very much, Pete
Cor, I can relax now!!! I don't care if we've seen them before, when they're put together like this, what a truly magnificent sight and sound to behold. Top marks to Tangmere driver, no embarrassing slipping noises!! Thanks Alan, another great compilation.
Hello Bob and thank you once again for such wonderful support, I really appreciate it. Hopefully I can film "the real thing" next week!! Best wishes, Alan
I'm liking the sound of that, Alan's back in the saddle, great news!!! 😊👍
Steam locomotives really are like animals aren’t they? You can literally HEAR the power these giant engines have! The whistle sounds like they’re talking to each other, the exhaust sounds of the engine sounds like panting and you can imagine the side rods looking like legs taking one step at a time
2:25
“I can do it!”
“I can do it!”
“I can do it!”
“I can do it!”
9:32
“Must not give up!”
“Must not give up!”
“We can do it!”
“We can do it!”
12:32
“Yes I can!”
“Yes I can!”
“Yes I can!”
“Yes I can!”
Just superb. Thanks for sharing the insights into the working of the two Bulleid Pacifics up Exeter Bank. Very interesting to see the Newquay branch included alongside some more well-known inclines. Hope both of you are keeping well.
Hello David and thank you for such kind comments and good wishes, we are both well and really appreciate your feedback. Best regards, Alan
@@Steamclips Alan, I've forgotten your wife's name AGAIN!
The first three clips were outstanding, and the detailed explanations - missing from some others' UK rail videos - terrific.
Who could ever fail to appreciate the beautiful 'Black 5' locos (a little under the tractive effort of our R class in Victoria, Oz) and the copper-topped GWR 'Castle' class?
You are the home of railways. Amazing how many gunzels (rail enthusiasts) plus general motorists steam attracts there, but in the first two clips you were almost alone. With that second one, in Oz we'd be likely to share a position with that other chap with the tripod, thus ensuring neither you nor he had another person in your footage.
Hello Edmund and thank you for your kind and most interesting comments, they are very much appreciated. The first location is probably one of the busiest on the whole of the U.K. Network and photographers have to turn up at least a couple of hours before the train to get a decent shot. I was probably with about 50 others (honestly!) and unthinkable in the current situation but still risked by many recently. I have to lower a microphone right down the bridge to get away from all the "still" photographers chat and clicking, hence the blast from the exhaust as the loco passes beneath. Best regards, Alan
Great video. Wonder that the climbs are 1 vs 42 (23,8 promille) or 1 vs 37 (27 promille) on the main lines? Have to say that ten wheeler Nunney Castle does amazing job. Castles must be the best ones of their size.
Nice to see the old girls out and about and that they can still get it done. Thanks for sharing.
You are most welcome. Thank you for your kind and much appreciated feedback. Best regards, Alan
Joepy ! No stalling... A perfect place to film these hard working horses. Thanks for sharing !
Hi and thank you for your kind and much appreciated feedback. Best regards, Alan
Fabulous video, get tensed up hoping there's no problems on the climb then when it flattens out my shoulders drop. You really feel the power. Thanks for that ❤
@@Havoc5429 Hi and thank you for such kind feedback, I really appreciate it. Best regards, Alan
Thanks for another great video. Especially impressive is Nunney Castle, accomplishing much of the climb with nothing more than a little water vapour issuing from the chimney!
Thank you for your kind and very much appreciated feedback Bentley. Castles are my favourite climbers and probably the best "all rounder" the G.W.R. ever produced as in later days they even proved to be exceptional freight locos!. Best regards, Alan
Hmm, it's deceptive. The loco is being fired well and there's little smoke. The steam is not condensing into clouds because it's probably a hot day but if you attempted to peer down that chimney it would probably blow your head off. You'd be guillotined, in effect, and who wants that? Nice to hear a Castle being given a bit of welly at low speed and there's an awful lot of stuff exploding from that chimney, hence the wonderful noise.
I love the steamed up lens at 2.56
Hard work like this will test the training effectiveness of your locomotive crew.
So true! Thank you for your valued comment. Kind regards, Alan
Brilliant video Alan. Great compilation of engines doing what they are got at. Working hard and putting on a superb performance. Kind regards C&A
Hi folks, lovely to hear from you. hopefully we will be able to see steam live again soon! Best wishes, Alan
Love the video. It is really nice to be able to hear the sounds of the old steam trains not "crappy" music. Good post and very enjoyable.
Hello David and thank you for such a kind comment, I really appreciate it. Best regards, Alan
Excellent video, stunning scenery.
Poor locos, they have to work so hard!
Hi and thank you for your kind and very much appreciated feedback. Best regards, Alan
Superb shots 👍🏻
Hi and thank you for your kind and very much appreciated feedback. Best regards, Alan
@@Steamclips You're very welcome :)
12:38 that is amazing what boleing water can do for you 👍👍👍
This video is awesome but when I see steam locomotives having a hard time on these hills I always wonder how they did it way back when even if some of these train had three locomotives it seems like they would struggle
Hi Den and thank you for your kind, interesting and much appreciated feedback. Best regards, Alan
I was urging them on. Come on lads!!! And the the whistle saying "I smashed it." Quite Brilliant and Quite Beautiful.
Thank you John for your kind and amusing comments, you brought a big smile to my face! Best regards, Alan
The slogs of King Edward 1st and Nunney Castle are my favourites out of all four. It seems nothing, not even a steep incline, will ever defeat them. I wonder if a King and Castle double-header has ever tackled a steep incline. Of all four, The Great Western Sloggers are the best. Long live God's Wonderful Railway.
Hi Kelly: G.W.R. fan as ever! Join the club!! Best regards, Alan P.S. your wish is my command: ua-cam.com/video/akA-p7mqhwA/v-deo.html
A King and a Castle is rather unlikely but I have B& W photos in various books showing a King and a Modified Hall, a King and a Star (a kind of baby Castle) and a load of other interesting 4-6-0 combinations. A King and a Hall or Grange is a typical combination. In each case the load was 13-15 coaches. I have been up Hemerdon myself in a big train. Two Halls. They didn't exert themselves unduly, the schedule not demanding it.
The double black 5s is one of my favourite clips of steam i can think of
@@jackrichards1101 Thank you for such a kind comment Jack, I really appreciate it. Best regards, Alan
Wow! Brilliant footage of the Black 5's.
Many thanks Graham, your kind comment is very much appreciated. Best regards, Alan
Interesting. On the two black fives, the connecting rods were not synchronised. Do they have different size driving wheels or was one slipping? I may be wrong of course, but I've watched it umpteen times before asking!
Hello Steve and thank you for such a good question. As you probably know, the locomotive wheels are fitted with steel tyres, which wear over time and change the profile into an unsafe condition. At this point all the driving wheels are re-profiled as a "set" on a wheel lathe so they remain the same size. If this removes (say) 1 inch of material, the distance covered per rev will reduce by approx. 30 inches and will soon put the loco out of sync with another which has newer tyres, which is probably the case here. Eventually new tyres have to be fitted and this usually takes place on the South Devon Railway where wheel maintenance is a speciality using equipment from the old GWR workshops at Swindon, see here: www.southdevonrailway.co.uk/special-services/engineering/. Regards, Alan
@@Steamclips Thank you very much for such an informative answer. I thought I was going mad !
@@Steamclips According to one of my books the wheels of a Castle, which are 6' 8½" when new, were allowed to wear down to just under 6' 5" provided the flange wear is not excessive, before they were cut off and new ones fitted. This would destroy any synchrony rather quickly. Also, when I was at Didcot helping a friend (the late Bob Fry) with the restoration of pannier 3650 I measured the wheels which should be 4' 7½" and found they were a whole 2 inches undersize. He also told me that the cylinders had to be re-bored (they were a bit oval) and the new diameter was 17 7/8 in instead of the nominal 17½. These changes would have put the tractive effort up by over 8%.
Not everything is as per your Ian Allan ABC. Take it with a pinch of salt, or perhaps sand.
9:20. It's very noticeable that, at least initially, the lead engine emits lots of black stuff but not the other - what causes that?
Hi Adrian, sorry for the late reply, I have been off-line for 4 weeks. The black smoke in the first engine is because coal is being thrown into the fire whilst the engine is working hard, and many ex-firemen (including the fireman on the second loco?) would say that that was not a good thing to do as a lot of coal dust and coal burning at low temperature gets sucked straight up the chimney! Kind regards, Alan
A bit late now but I hadn't come across this before. Fabulous filming, as always, but in particular the ability to show on film just how steep these banks are. This is not often achieved. What I do not fully understand is where the 420 tons load on the first two clips comes from, with 8 coaches for the King and 9 for the Castle-or is that including the engines? With a Class 47 on the back, I was behind 4472 and a Black 5 (we used to call them Mickeys in Lancashire) from Plymouth to Exeter and back a couple of years ago. I could not work out whether the Diesel was doing any work but we positively flew up Hemerdon and Dainton almost as if they were not there, so I suspected cheating. And can someone tell me about the old days, please. I knew little of the GWR being from manchester. Were the principal expresses banked or maybe piloted up Hemerdon and Dainton?
Hello Nigel and thank you for your kind and interesting questions and comments. Take a closer look and you will find that the King is hauling 9 coaches, which is standard for anything class 7 and above (unassisted) on a Royal Duchy tour. Load is taken by Network Rail as 40.5 tons per loaded coach and 55 tons per loaded tender, giving 420 tons. Express trains were usually piloted over the banks between Newton Abbot and Plymouth. For really heavy (summer holiday) expresses and goods, bankers were also used on "down" services up to the sidings (now removed) after Dainton Tunnel and on "up" trains to the sidings at the top of Hemerdon Bank. Of course, there were always exceptions and there are reports of heroic slogs by locos (especially Castles) who for one reason or another were forced to go it alone! Best regards, Alan
@@Steamclips Thank you very much Alan for your very interesting information. Two things: 1. I cannot count! and 2. I now understand the loading as per Network Rail. I'll tell you what confused me. As a long time afficionado of the Somerset and Dorset, the official load limit over the Mendips for Black 5s and SR Pacifics unassisted was 8 coaches and for the 7Fs and 9Fs 10 . This was supposed to equate with 270/280 tons and about 340 tons respectively. This did not include the loco tender of course. But these limits were often exceeded. Peter Smith, a passed fireman, took the final Pines Express with a 9F unassisted over the Mendips with either 420 or 450 tons behind the tender, depending on who you believe, which I think was 12 coaches or maybe 13 and he was 24 at that time! Sorry if you know all this but perhaps you can see my confusion about present day tonnage calculations. Thanks also for the stuff about pilots and bankers in the old days because some of those trains were pretty heavy not withstanding coaches being slipped. Best wishes, Nigel
Very much from the old days because I'm 79. Passenger trains up the south Devon banks were always piloted but goods and empty stock were generally banked. Piloting means you don't have to stop to attach a banker, which his useful because speeds at the bottom were fairly high (Hemerdon about 50 mph, 50-55 through Totnes westbound). The load limits for unpiloted trains were pretty high, 11 for a King, 9 for a Castle or County and 8 for a Hall or Grange. There is very little to spare with these loads.
A great pleasure to watch again these "working hard for their money" steam locos. - Greetings, Heinz
Thank you Heinz, nice to hear from you again. Best regards, Alan
@@Steamclips - I'm happy every time my mail list notes you have posted a new video. - Sincerly, Heinz
impressive footage 👍👍excellent camera work
Hi and thank you for your kind and very much appreciated comment. Best regards, Alan
I forgot it was Upwey and for a brief moment saw the third rail as the latest attempt to go back to the Broad Gauge.
If you could do another like this one that would be great
Thanks for your kind request Henry, we will have to see. Better still will be to film steam coming out of lockdown, which thankfully looks imminent here in Torbay. Best regards, Alan
I passed out as a fireman on a Black 5. Wonderful engines.
Thanks for your interesting comment Stuart, so I guess that you can imagine what the footplate was like on that climb. Regards, Alan
Marvelous clips, thank you.
Hi and thank you for your kind and very much appreciated comment. Best regards, Alan
Great sound of double banked engines exhausts going in and out of synch even better when from locos with different wheel diameters
Hello Eric and thank you for your kind, interesting and much appreciated feedback. Best regards, Alan
The trailing load behind the "King" on Hemerdon bank is NOT 420 tons, as that would require an assisting locomotive. There are only 9 x Mk1's behind the tender, not 13. There are "Load Limits" for each route and loco type, in case you didn't know. I used to be an Exeter driver in BR days, so I've driven all sorts of trains over the "Devon Banks"
As with the King, the Castle climbing Upwey bank out of Weymouth is NOT hauling 420 tons, as again the load is limited to 7 x Mk2 + 2 x Mk1 coaches, total 9 coaches. Mk1's weighed between 27 & 32 tons depending on what type of Mk1 it was, and what type of bogies it is sitting on. Mk2/2a/2b/2c were 24-28 tons. Passengers add weight at the average of 16 persons per ton. So 7 x Mk 2's at an average 26 tons per coach = 182 tons, 2 x Mk1's at average 30 tons = 60 tons + roughly 3 tons per coach for passengers is 9 x 3 tons = another 27 tons. So the all up weight is 182+ 60 + 27 = TOTAL of around 269 tons !!!!!!
The 2 x Black 5's climbing out of Newquay have a trailing load of 13 coaches. 2 x Mk2, 10 x Mk1 & a Mk1 Pullman (total 385 tons). Plus passengers in 12 (excl Buffet) an extra 36 tons. The class 47 Diesel at the rear appears from the sound to be adding at least some of its 2,500hp so can't be included in the Load. So the total is in reality only 411 tons.
As for the two Bulleids up the 1 in 37 from St.David's to Central, the film doesn't reveal the load. But it's certainly a slog, as you can't get a run at the hill, starting from St.David's. And there is the added problem of two trap points up the bank. So no rolling backwards to try and restart if you stall. Very nasty. I even had to go out one morning and take a Class 37 (1,750hp) up the hill to rescue a Class 50 (2,700hp) with 9 Mk2's that had slipped to a halt on frosty rails with the 06.30 to Waterloo !!!
Hello James and thank you for your interesting and detailed comment/criticism. I must say that you are not the first ex-railwayman to make these points in the comments section of this clip. The load I quote for each clip is as published by Network Rail in the "train information" section of the Realtime Trains schedule for each of the tours featured. The Tour Operator in most instances also use the same load data in their customer information. The elements of the load are made up as follows: 40.5 tons for a loaded Mk1/2 coach and 55 tons for a loaded (large) tender, so for a nine coach train the load is 9 x 40.5 + 55 = 419.5 tons. These "standardised" elements originate from B.R. Engineering and were developed during the "Modernisation" era of B.R. in order to calculate and compare D.B.H.P. across various traction types and are still in use by Network Rail today, so this is nothing new. I am always delighted to hear from Engine-men (past & present) and you have my utmost respect for the comments you make, however, I feel duty bound to adhere to the "official" load figures as published by Network Rail despite the arguments you make. Kind regards, Alan
Thanks for the details, Make it easier to understand the “Slog”
My pleasure John. Glad you enjoyed the clip and thank you for your kind and very much appreciated feedback. Best regards, Alan
How its possible dual steam loco operation how the pressure valve works , or it seems like mued coupling in diesel electrics ??? Pls explain sir kindly
Hi and thank you for your question. Scientifically speaking a train is a "series" event i.e. one behind the other, which means that there is a cumulative effect of power sources and no conflict. One loco could be pulling at full power and the next at half power and the cumulative power is 1.5 of total. If you have power sources side by side (parallel) as in (say) horses pulling a chariot, you have conflicting power if all the horses do not pull the same and this gives a real problem to the chariot driver. I hope I have understood your question and given a satisfactory answer. Regards, Alan
@@Steamclips yes correct Mr. Alan my question is give you another view the pressure throttle is given by another behind lead horse seperate by loco pilot right
@@eastdeltarailfansclub9322 Yes, I think that you have got the idea. Regards, Alan
Good news we’ve got jubilee kolaphur joining Galatea Leander and Bahamas on the mainline because work is now starting on the overhaul on the engine
How ,if at all, is the drawbar traction shared and synchronised between the two sources in double headed traction?
The pull is not synchronised - it doesn't need to be. The locos each pull as hard as they think is necessary, relying on the experience of the drivers. Even if the driving wheels were nominally identical in diameter they would not be so in practice because of different wear rates and any synchrony would be lost within a few revolutions. The pull is quite small compared with the weight of the train and there's always a bit of "give" in the couplings.
Very Beautiful and powerful.
Hello Luciano and thank you for your kind and much appreciated feedback. Best regards, Alan
5:00 Do the locomotive crew have oxygen masks for going through the tunnel? :-) The fumes must be pretty bad in there...
Hi and thank you for your valued comment. You are right and not great for passengers either. Luckily this tunnel is very short and most tunnels are traversed at higher speeds with less clag. Imagine when the London Underground first opened and was operated by unmodified steam engines! Kind regards, Alan
I have 1 question, Despite their numbering being rather different, ie 44 and 45. Was there any particular difference between them?
I realise they're both Black 5's but are there any differences that are notable?
How is it possible the locos run with clean smoke? I expected vesuvian pillars of exhaust. Great work from the engine crews!
Hello Michael and thank you for your valued comment. I am a little puzzled however, as parts 3 (especially) & 4 both feature vesuvian pillars of smoke! Regards, Alan
Right, clip 4 indeed managed mt. Vesuvius, the lead engine in clip 3 was close but only for a short time. If you check videos with vintage east germany steam, the cinder eruption was common due to the low quality coal often used, or oil burners opened full regardless of the possible air intake......
You run with a thin fire. This is a bit risky because it might develop a hole and the draught would go through that rather than the main firebed. A good experienced fireman, as in steam days, could do it, though.
9/10 carriages? up what sort of a gradient? and that with 2 engines! Why such a slog? Was this normal in pre BR & BR times of just because its steam traction. Would diesel or a modern elctrified train do any better?
The Hemerdon climb by the King was quite different from the practice in steam days. The train comes into view doing a good 30 mph and tops the bank at about 15 mph and is altogether pretty energetic. In steam days the speed would have been allowed to fall rapidly on the lower part of the bank and for the rest of it the engine would have been slogging away at 12-15 mph or even less. The schedule demanded nothing more and trying to rush it may bring the pressure down, resulting in a stall.
BTW the 9 coaches cannot possibly weigh 420 tons. The true figure is about 100 tons less; 320 to 330, say. Still quite a heave. In steam days Kings were allowed to take 11 unassisted (about 385 tons) and I have log of one of these with a minimum speed of 18 mph. The fireman would have busy, shall we say.
Thanks for a well-produced vid reminding us oldies (77) that there's nothing better than seeing a steam loco given a bit of welly.
Hi and thank you for your kind, interesting and much appreciated comments. The calculations I use for load use B.R's established figures for load i.e. 40.5 tons for a laden Mk1/2 coach and 55 tons for a laden "large" tender. These weights were established (in part) in order to calculate D.B.H.P. (Developed Brake HorsePower) when B.R. were trying to compare power across all types of locomotive at the end of steam in order to specify power requirements for "Modernisation". What "laden" means is difficult to ascertain but taken that Royal Duchy Tours are invariably "sell-out" (they are probably the best value tour out there!) I would suggest that the load per coach (at least) meets the B.R. criteria and a 600 gallon G.W.R. tender (a significant part of drawbar load) which has just been topped-up in Plymouth, is easily 55 tons. Taken together, this gives a total load on the drawbar of 420 tons (rounded) and is, in fact, the load assumed by Network Rail and published both by Realtime Trains and the Tour operator for the run featured. Kind regards, Alan
@@Steamclips Well, thanks for your complimentary remarks but I fear your weight estimates are very much on the high side and you really cannot include a tender as part of the load because without it the engine goes nowhere. The official weight of a fully loaded King tender is 46.7 tons which comprises 4000 gallons of water and 6 tons of coal. It's unlikely the weight is much different from the official figure, unlike the King itself which has a nominal weight of 89 tons but all of them weighed quite a bit more than that, up to 95 tons. It was an officially-sanctioned fiddle to get over the axle-load limits. As for train weights, when 5043 took 9 up Hemerdon in great style the weight of the coaches+passengers was given as 348 tons and is about the heaviest train that a Castle has taken up Hemerdon.
None of this really matters, of course. The loads were heavy, but not maxima, and the climbs were good. I'd still like to see a King with 11 up Hemerdon as long as I wasn't the fireman. BTW DBHP stands for Drawbar Horsepower, i.e. what's left to pull the train after the engine has got itself along.
@@Rosie6857 Hi again. I don't get notification of "replies" and have just come across yours by chance, therefore sorry for the delay as I like to respond where possible. Yes it is true that the Kings tender is actually 8.3 tons short of the 55 average that B.R. decided on. I have been fortunate enough to work with a number of ex-railwaymen from all parts of the railway over the years. Many years ago I worked with an Ex-Senior B.R. Engineer who was involved with the Modernisation Programme back in the early 50's and as I was a young Engineer with an interest in steam locomotives, he shared much of the methodology used back then and this is where my information comes from. He explained that calculation of true Drawbar Horsepower is extremely complex, starting with the horsepower produced by the boiler and working through the rest of the locomotive. They decided to simply compare types by comparing time (speed) to pull a given load up a given gradient and (by coincidence or not?) using the same nomenclature DBHP: called this Developed Brake Horsepower which over time (not sure how long) became accepted as a "practical" Drawbar Horsepower. If you don't already know, the equation became: grav load lbs x 1.002 x speed m.p.h. / 375
where gravitational load is 1/ gradient and 1.002 is the coefficient of friction of wheels on rail. The standard loads, including tender! (don't shoot the messenger!) being as I have previously stated. So, at 1 in 42 the gravitational load in the video is roughly 10 tons, the difference of 8.3 tons in static tender weight divided by 42 therefore becomes less important. Using the calculation for the video, the King is producing roughly 1400 DBHP, quite a bit short of her maximum of 2000! I can tell that you have a lot of practical experience and I respect that very much. My lifetime interest has been academic (sprinkled with an unhealthy amount of romanticism!) and although we probably have different backgrounds, we clearly both have the love of steam and long may we be able to enjoy it. Kind regards, Alan
@@Steamclips Thanks for your kind reply. The difficulty with assessing the King climb is the fact that the train is quite noticeably slowing down and acceleration (or deceleration) is a very large factor in working out drawbar horsepower, even on the level. All we can really do is make informed guesses. I wouldn't quibble with your figure of 1400 DBHP but just can't see a King producing 2000 DBHP at that speed because of the long cut-off (about 50%) which produces a glorious noise but is extravagant in steam and there's a limit to what the boiler can produce and what the fireman (or two) can shovel.
BTW my background is not railway. I'm a 77-yr-old retired industrial chemist with a lifetime interest in steam locos, what they can do and what they sound like. A lot of reading, observing and playing with numbers, you could say. FWIW I'm a Londoner made entirely of Welsh stuff but which hat I wear here is not important but might explain my strange username because my real name is Tudor Hughes. Best wishes. May your axleboxes run cool!
What sort of coordination is there between the crew of double header trains?
Thank you for your question John. Simply put and as I currently understand; the leading locomotive (Pilot) is in control of the train, especially braking, and communication between crews (which used to be done by whistle codes) is usually by shortwave handsets (Walky Talky) or mobile phone but (usually) only if something out of the ordinary happens. Watch from 7:57 here ua-cam.com/video/Y_e0MSzNAM4/v-deo.html where you can see the Pilot taking charge of the depart. Regards, Alan
That's cool I dent thats what that meant
Means she's put In the work getting in low gear 👍👍👍👍👍👍
I've noticed in the Nunney Castle clip that the train emerging from Bincombe Tunnel is not the same as the one that went in. Some underground magic is going on. There are a number of giveaways. Nunney has lost its smokebox numberplate and reporting-number frame and the consist of the train is different. Also the speed on emerging from the tunnel is a little faster than when it went in and I don't think that would happen on the constant 1 in 52 through the tunnel.
Never mind; a legitimate deception. It's a well-shot vid of a Castle with 9 hammering up the bank to Bincombe Tunnel, so thanks.
Thank you again for your kind feedback and for your astute observation, although you could have saved yourself the sleuthing by reading the description where I explain that it is two clips and give you the links to the original posts! Kind regards, Alan
@@Steamclips Ah, sorry about that. Didn't see the links.
Another great 'put together' Alan, as Iv'e said in previous posts 'I know how it feels to be on the footplate in just this situation', certainly a 'twitching occation'. The driver showing his skills to keep things moving at all costs, the fireman thinking, 'i could be in for a long walk to the box, maybe'?
The childs story 'I think I can, I think I can, I know I can' comes to mind .. lol.
atvb t ..
Hi Terry and thank you for your kind feedback and sharing your "insider" experience, it's nice to be reminded of the difficulties of ordinary life in the days before mobile phones &etc.!. Best regards, Alan
1:40 must be in 1st gear with all that rpm and no speed!
2:44 you can see the front end swing with each piston slogging.
9:00 smoke screen so highway traffic doesn’t stop and gawk.
Hi and thank you for your interesting and very much appreciated comments. Regards, Alan
Wonder how a 9F would do on those climbes?
Hi and thank you for your interesting remark. A 9F with its smaller wheel diameter would make a much easier job of course, a bit like cycling up a hill in low gear compared to using a high gear (like a passenger loco with large wheels). Kind regards, Alan
The same question applies to a rear "
pusher ",remote from the leading" tractor"
Hello Phil and thank you for your kind and very much appreciated comments. As for your question: you need to think of anything working (locomotives) on one side of a tug-o-war verses anything not working (the load) on the other side. Just as in a tug-o-war, it doesn't matter how each side is made up and how different participants weigh or how hard they are pulling, all that matters is the combined effects of each side. This is known as a series power chain. So it doesn't matter if different loco's are putting out different powers and it doesn't matter how the load is made up. All that matters is that all the locomotives, wherever they are in the series chain, are pulling enough to overcome the gravitational and frictional effects of the load (which includes the locomotive tenders of course!) trying to resist that pull. I hope this explains. Best regards, Alan (Retired Engineer)
"I think I can; I think I can..." - -----------------> "I TOLD y'all I could." 🤩😉 RESPECT.
Great compilation. Must admit I’m having a bit of difficulty with the tonnages quoted - a loaded MK1 or 2 vehicles is 35 tons? So 9 x 35 = 315t in the first clip, but you quote 420t.
Hi and thank you for your kind and much appreciated comment. Your question is regularly asked and is a case of 'don't shoot the messenger'! The figures I use are as used by Network Rail, published as the official load on sites such as Realtime Trains &etc. and actually originate from the days of B.R. "Modernisation" which gives 40.5 tons per coach + 55tons for the tender i.e. for a 9 coach train: 9 x 40.5 + 55 = 420 tons. Best regards, Alan
@@Steamclips
After 42 years in the railways I always guessed 50 tons per carriage, including a full complement of passengers and luggage.
YAWN!!! you should check out videos of the N&W 611 going up the Saluda Pass in Saluda, NC.
In one video it stall and stopped and had to start from a stand still on the steepest grade in the United States. MOST IMPRESSIVE!
There is even a railroad published training video on the hazards, dynamics, and techniques involved in getting up AND over the peak (it's steep on both sides)
Power is the least of the issues. And traction takes a back seat to the dangers of decoupling when a very long heavy train is half over the peak. If you only have an engine pulling from the front then a brute force disconnect becomes a very real possibility.
To put it in British terms, Saluda is a 1 in 21 gradient, and 611 had over 500 tons of coaches behind her when she pulled the grade.
I was, however, trying to avoid belittling our British brethren in such fashion.
@@FS2K4Pilot And let's not mention that the 611 and a few others could very well beat their speed records easily if it we wanted to
@@scotte2815 Lets just agree that steam working hard in any form is something to be admired.
As the first railways in the world, the British loading gauge is much smaller than say, in the U.S. or Canada. The early engines were tiny and tunnels and track curves were laid down accordingly. This limited the size of engines which would be developed later by the great British loco engineers. Our engines look more elegant than most around the world though, with a few exceptions.
I wish I lived in that red building in the thumbnail and had a room with a view of the track. Not many people around, just a view of the train on a foggy morning.
Hi and thank you for your interesting and valued comment. Everyone was on the bridge where the shot was taken from!! Regards, Alan
This only underlines my disappointment that the Bincomb Bank recently saw a Diesel hauling a tour from Weymouth. . A terrible decusion!
I feel your pain Robin! Alan
Sticking to low-efficiency steam recips, now let's see a PLM (French) compound pacific. Just for grins, of course.
Fantastic! Not being an expert, I'm assuming the drivers have to be very skilled here to avoid blowing the fire right out of the loco through the chimney! Is it full regulator and no cut off? Do they have to worry about stuff like that?
Full regular yes, cut off will be around the 50% mark in would expect. Biggest problem they face in these climbs is wheel slop, if the engines slip and its not caught quickly they will destroy themselves like 60532 did at Durham many moons ago.
You're spoiling us, Alan - a good lash-up from you, many thanks.
Makes me wonder why no-one invented gears for them (that shows my ignorance, eh). I 'translated' 1 in 37 into how we'd see it over here: 2.7%. That's steep for what is a main line... is the curve factored into the gradient? In the Exeter clip, was Braunton used as a pusher to avoid strain on the couplings, or was it to make it easy to unhitch her? Gonna have to watch this again, and again, and ag.....
Hi and thank you for your kind comments and questions. Steam locomotives do in fact have the equivalent effect of a gearbox through valve cut-off, read about it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutoff_(steam_engine) . The tight curve definitely adds to the effective load because of flange friction on the rails. Braunton pushing from the rear reduces this by lifting the load off the train. Both locomotive crews are at all times aware of not "overdoing it" and causing a catasrophic slip. Best regards, Alan
@@Steamclips Thankyou Alan - for the link, etc.. I learn more every day.
Awesome sause stuff bud them black 5s we're well able for that climb
Thanks for that Joseph, your kind feedback is much appreciated. Best regards, Alan
good video. those are cute little engines.
Hi and thank you for your kind and amusing feedback. Suggest you read about GWR 6000 King George V visit to B&O Centenary Celebrations in 1927, where the "cute little engine" amazed and out performed the B&O traction even with "poor" American coal! Best regards, Alan
Why doesn't the diesel give them a push????
What diesel???
The Class 47 on the back of the train.
@@22whizzo56 It did give a push at the last minute.
Hi, I am sorry you got this mischievous reply, a slightly tipsy friend had my phone and was watching one of the videos. You are right, the diesel could have assisted sooner but it relies on the steam crew to request it and they obviously didn't until it was almost too late! Thank you for your valued question and apologies once again. Kind regards, Alan
How many diesel engines would you need for the same job?
Hello James and thank you for your intriguing question. You still have me thinking......! Regards, Alan
Some conversion for US people.
1 in 40 = 2.5% Grade
1 in 42 = 2.38% Grade
1 in 50 = 2% Grade
Anyone notice the Yellow Dodge Viper at 10:35 😅👍🏻 Great video btw
Well spotted! Many thanks for your kind and interesting comment. Best regards, Alan
It gives me the hairs on ends! Bloody love our old steam engines.
You and me both, my friend! Thank you for your inspiring comment. Regards, Alan
Hey! That's rebecca on the thumbnail from thomas and friends!
Gota feel bad for the firemen on the king
9 bogies behind king & castle = around 310 tons gross not 420tons!
Max permitted for a king unaided up Hemerdon was 9 bogies. Bit easier these days also due to roller bearings.
420 tons unaided would have killed em both stone dead. 🙂
A West Country was allowed 8 bogies & a Merchant Navy 9 bogies up Hemerdon unaided.🙂
Hello Dave and thank you for your valued comments regarding loads, you are not the first by any means. I must assume that you have not read my description where I explain in detail the "official" load figures, if that is so, please take a look. You will see therefore that I am merely the "messenger" for N.R. and B.R. before them. Kind regards, Alan
@@Steamclips Hello Alan, thank you for your reply.
I wasn’t having a critical dig, jus a perspective that those official load figures are incorrectly stated because they’ve added the weight of the engines concerned which is misleading. I guess they work on the principle that the engine has to lift its own weight as well. BR never did this because without a dynamometer car you had no idea what the true weight & rolling resistance of the engine was which can be a significant factor. For example an unconverted MN ran more freely than the converted MN.
So simply put it’s what’s hung on the drawbar that counts.
It is nice to see that common sense is starting to prevail & they are respecting the BR loading figures as stated for each class of engine over a particular road.
34067 was overloaded on the strength that 34046 was running tender first.
If she had stalled 46 wouldn’t have been able to keep the train moving.
The driver would have had to watch out for priming if he opened up too hard. The fireman making sure the engine didn’t blow off & lift the water.
If 34046 had been nose up then a better climb would have ensued as there would be less fear of priming.
11 on behind acWC in BR days would have had a pilot engine & possibly 1 or 2 engines banking.
WC’s were only permitted 6 bogies up that incline unaided I believe from memory.🙂
I think I can, I think I can!!
40.5 tonnes per loaded mk1 is way to much, it's more like 36t at most.
@@tgk300xx4 As I explain in the description, these are conventional loads passed down from British Railways and still used by Network Rail in their computer models today. Regards, Alan
@@Steamclips Yeah it wasn’t a criticism of your video, just making the point that what NR use is actually quite inaccurate. Video is great.
@@tgk300xx4 No criticism taken. Thank you for coming back with a kind and much appreciated response. Alan
@@Steamclips You are welcome Alan, it has always suprised me that NR don't try to accurately estimate the total weight. I always work on 36t for a loaded mk1 or 2 unless it's a Met Cam pullman then I go for 39 and 44t for a mk3 sleeper.
A pair of fives will smash everything. And they did.
I think I can, I think I can, I think I can...
My Simple comm ent Wonderful Su perb Capturing Ne ver seen before pa rticularly the third one a Dual power hauled train which almost came to st andstill but recove red
@@ChandraMohan-t7x Thank you for your kind very much appreciated comment Chandra. Best regards, Alan
@Steamclips Further details of my Railway Biography Presently running 82 nd age started loving trains right from 1954 accus toned to all three type s of locos Steam Diesel and Electric travelled all over India 3 times during 1960 to 62 except parts of Tamil Naadu and full Kerala Retired as Chief Accounts Auditor on 31 3 2001 Presently living at Mysore Palace City of South India
that is the difference between Diesel and Steam: you can archieve more with steam, because if the diesel run´s on notch 8(USA) ,that it´s then, die steamengine is designed for more power..The constructions of the steam age had always some % more power in reserve...just without CAD...
Hi and thank you for your interesting summary. Regards, Alan
1 in 50 - my granny would breeze up that on her bicycle! Much of the power used must be wasted on heating up the rails as the wheels slip all the time.
... Ah but would Granny breeze up a 1 in 50 pulling Grandad, let alone 400 - 700 tons? Rails are the most efficient way of hauling loads, even more so than on water and although a steam locomotive is a very inefficient machine, the power it develops is very efficiently deployed.
Blimey, more Chuff than a Bradford Brothel...
Hi and thank you for your much appreciated "eyebrow-raising" and fun comment! Regards, Alan
Hills: *exist*
*Gordon has never seen such bullshit before*
five stars * * * * *
My heart was in my mouth watching those black fives........
Thank you for your valued input John, glad to have brought you some excitement! Regards, Alan
Only one thing wrong. THE SMELL. mmmmm
Thank you for the thought provoking comment. If only there was "Smellyvision"! Kind regards, Alan
The King Class, being GWR it's short of steam.
It's short of steam because it's GWR, it it? Are all GW engines short of steam, and at all times, including these? Look, GWR locos are magic and they don't actually need steam - they just go, and make a joyful sound.
Tired me out just watching
Thank you for the fun comment Steve, glad you found the clip interesting. Kind regards, Alan
Is this not the coolest thing? Born 2 generation 2late