Milling Machine Tooling: R-8 or Morse Taper?
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- In this video I am discussing what I consider to be the best spindle choice when purchasing a vertical milling machine, and why, so you can hopefully make a more informed decision when purchasing your shop equipment.
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We have two ancient mills, one with BS9 and the other NMTB 40. R8, BS9 and MT all seem like about more or less the same thing, long, and you're not about to pass stock through them like a 5c. The NMTB is simplest- very short taper- Less room needed over workpiece to swap tapers and quick changes.
Yes but they will all also have different holding power and rigidity with the 40 probably being the best.
Thanks for your thoughts. Last weekend I picked up a small old mill with r8 very inexpensively (Came with a surface grinder build project too) and look forward to learning some new things on it once I get it down into my little shop area.
Cool, keep me updated on your progress, it's always fun to have a new project
Thanks. This project ('s) has been really great so far in terms of price, ability to move it, and overall physical condition. Granted, it's not a Bridgeport (or even an import mini mill), but my expectations for it are realistic, so whatever simple milling I can do will be more than I have done before, and it was only $200 with a little surface grinder thrown in. Basically scrap price. :) @@hillsgun
I'm about to buy my first mill to convert to cnc and I don't understand the chuck it says its Spindle taper: MT3/R8 I cant find a collet set that says mt3 just r8 or will they both work? Is mt3/r8 to different holders? I was gonna purchase the RCOG-25V milling machine. Sorry for the dumb question I only own a home built cnc router
Not a dumb question, mt3 and R8 are different, some of these mills have the option of the Morse taper or the r8 my opinion is that you want the r8. It is now more common ( at least in the US), has more holding power under the radial loads imposed by a milling machine, and has more available holders for the mill. You will more commonly see morse tapers used on drill presses and lathes where they usually only experience axial loads. Hope that helps, Dan.
Are you in Marin?
no, don't know where marin is?
Saw what looked like the Golden Gate in the background of your channel pic, so thought you were in the SF Bay area. Marin is on the north side of the Golden Gate. Cheers
You are right about the picture, but it was from a trip my wife and I took. It was the "least un-flattering pic" I had.
Roger that.
Cheers brother
Thanks for all your videos, just subscribed and looking back at all you upload. Scratch building a cruzer 750 atm
Thank You. I appreciate it. How far are you on the 750?
Just started, close to riveting the spars and almost finished the front ribs... 22 of em!
cool, It gets daunting at times but I know it is doable
Well I got myself the zenith : keep calm and build the plane! Haha. Got the idea fromage Greg STOL!
I came here trying to understand physically which is better, Morse3 (with drawbar) or R8 (with drawbar) to hold for example a TTS tooling system. (3/4" shank).
In Australia, Morse3 is more prevalent, but if we accept a TTS style 3/4" tooling option, would R8 3/4" collet hold it truer/tighter/more accurately than an equivalent MT3 3/4" collet?
Thanks for your thoughts, hopefully you may have some further thoughts as per my question cheers mate
I do not have a difinitive answer for you. In my opinion I think R8 will be better but that is only an opinion. Here Morse taper is primarily used in lathe tooling where it is used with friction fit and no drawbar. R8 is designed as a collet system with a drawbar which I think should hold tighter,(I think accuracy should be comparable) and for me trying to slowly convert all my mill tooling to TTS which is designed around the R8 make the decision easy for me which in this class of tooling will be R8. Thanks, Dan.
Ive got an RF30 round column mill with Morse3, and my lathe tailstock is also morse3, however I have just acquired a siegX3 CNC machine, which has R8 column, further reading is suggesting that R8 will release easier than Morse3 (morse3 for milling operations where any kind of side-load is present will break the morse taper unless a drawbar is used. ) but yeah, a very interesting question regardless. Thanks heaps for your prompt reply, will check out some of your other videos while im here mate thanks
Good point I forgot to mention the easier release of R8. Dan.
G’day mate, I know it was four years ago and don’t know if you are still about but I have a few questions so I’ll give it a go. Firstly, thanks for the video, your explanations of why you think it is better was really interesting 👍.
I didn’t quite get why you think MT is no good for milling so if you could explain that it would be good. Also, I’m confused about the R8 choice. R8 is a collet system of tool holding, I haven’t seen it replace MT or BT or ISO etc. With those I mentioned, they aren’t a variable system, they’re are designed as the singular interface between the machine and the tooling. So having said that, I can’t get a handle why you are using a collet system as that interface and using another collet system on top of your R8 collets. Collets on collets?
ER on R8. I kjnd of thought R8 and 5C was primarily a job holding system designed as a job holding collet for a lathe. Perhaps I didn’t understand your setup properly - wouldn’t be the first time! 😊 Perhaps you can tell me what your system is starting at the drawbar and going down. Another thing I found as a disadvantage of R8 is the collets tight tolerance for whatever you shove into it. I’ve always used max values of +/- 8 thou for R8 and +/- 5 thou for 5C, whereas ER is +/- 20 thou. Anyways, the hats about it. Absolutely no criticism of what I think you’re doing, just not sure why. Cheers mate, Michael 🇦🇺
Hi Michael: I will try and make it clear as mud, bear in mind that these are my opinions only and are for the way I work in my shop, which is mainly my hobby and not a commercial shop using larger machines. R8 will never replace BT or ISO tooling as they are a much more positive system since they use a pull stud Here in the US R8 is fairly common for tool holding on the mill and is found on most smaller machines, we do not usually see new mills here with a morse taper spindle. 5C is fairly common for workholding in the lathe and both the 5C and R8 are self releasing so they are a little easier to change whatever they are holding and utilize a drawbar to lock the tool in the machine where as the morse taper can work loose on a mill. On my mills I use the R8 system usually in conjunction with the Tormach tooling system which is based on the R8 3/4" collet so if using a power drawbar it is released and a 3/4" shank toolholder is inserted. these can be has in about any tooling configuration fron standard end mill holders to flycutters, tapping heads and drill chucks. They are also available in ER collet sizes which is especially useful if you are using an odd size drill bit and can dedicate a tool holder to it so if in the course of a job I need to drill a 6MM hole several different times throughout the job I simply change to that tool holder it is already set up to a known repeatable length and is usually shorter than the same setup in a drill chuck.Hope that helps, Thanks, Dan.
@@hillsgun Thank Dan. One small thing. Again you use a throwaway comment "whereas the Morse taper can work loose on a mill" lol Can you explain that? I think that caught me out in your video too.
I use 5C for small work holding in my lathe too. Thousand times better than a chuck! lol
Cheers mate 👍 thanks for your time. Very interesting to hear what you have to say. Mick 🇦🇺
Good advice. I'm now working on making a conversion from a Van Norman 5v to R8 and use the ER20. I was going to go MT2, but your points have changed my mind. I haven't planned it all out yet, but I do have some stock I can turn for it.
Are you going to use R8 tooling or primarrily ER20? If it will be primarrily ER It might be easier and more economical to stay with 5V and expand that existing system with custom holders for ER20?
The 5v collets are impossible to find and when they are sold, cost $200 or more. Also, the Van Norman didn't come with a draw bar- it's a 3/4-18 female with very little room to make one. What I was thinking was to turn a 5c tool holder for an R8, then I could easily afford to stock collets and use the ER20.
When you say "expand" the 5c, what exactly was your idea?
I have to fein ignorance as I am not familiar with the 5V so I will have to look it up, but my initial thought was since you are going to have to turn tooling anyway I would probably turn a 5v collet, or series of collets to be used as an adapter or adapters for something more universal such as ER series or 3/4" bored with possibly a setscrew style holder IE end mill holder, which could accept holders such as Tormach style tooling.
The 5v was exclusive in the Van Normans made somewhere between the 20's- 40's- and some beyond. This one is the rare 1949 Van Norman #6 I'm restoring. (Can't stand to see history disappear).
Yes- your idea is what I was thinking (along with the many other options that boggle the mind) as it seems the most adaptive. I appreciate your time, expertise and input.
hi
i have emco fb2 milling with mt2 taper
i want make it cnc
so is there any way to used tts tormach system >pls
As far as I know there is no good way to use the tts system with a morse taper machine. The tts system is dependent on a drawbar for positive retention.
hillsgun 🙏 thanks
no problem, Thanks.