Okay, after watching this entire video... I think we can boil it down to this: There's a group of friends playing football. Disney arrives, with it's shiny just bought ball. Disney decides what the new rules of the sport are because "it's their ball". Ofc the ball is theirs, nobody will argue with that. But also... The group of friends still have the old ball they were using, and they can ignore Disney's rules and ball.
I grew up with Star Wars. For me - and I think this is what you're getting at - the canon argument is a red herring. The real issues with Disney go much deeper. Is Star Wars just a 'universe'? Is it a story? Or is it a kind of storytelling? It's the latter for me. Star Wars was always more than just a time and place - a galaxy far, far away. George Lucas created an updated serial with western and samurai references. It was like a film experience within a film, which prioritized visual storytelling over dialogue. And it was a hero's journey, his response to the plethora of 1970s anti-heroes. These are the things that have been messed with.
Yes I agree, there are some really deep questions at the heart of this. It's so interesting because we're talking about a fictional universe. An imagined space. It literally doesn't exist. It's just a bunch of shared ideas. And yet there is so much passion about it, and it's so valuable - even in monetary terms. In any case, I think we can all agree that Disney's ownership has been clumsy.
@@theartofstorytelling1 I think you're being generous; I'd call their stewardship 'inept.' And it does exist in hearts and minds; we're talking about the cultural resonance of myths, after all. Which makes Disney's handling of this IP even more mind boggling. Could you imagine McDonalds changing the Big Mac to be a vegan burger with a salad? or Coca-Cola switching their formula to New Coke? Okay, maybe skip that last one.
@@theartofstorytelling1 Disney is treading very shallow water. If you break down the canon and show the audience you don't care about continuity within your own universe, why should we care? It also destroys nerd-dom that makes I.P.s so powerful and lasting. The lore, the merch, the endless talks at work and in comic shops... if all that ceases, then the staying power of the I.P. dies.
I think we underestimate Lucas's ability to pick people. Timothy Zahn, Foster, Roy Thomas, Archie Goodwin, John Williams, Drew Sturzan, Steven Sansweet, his product design teams, Cam Kennedy, McQuarrie, his puppet factories, his entire ILM output.
He was great at it, except for Kazdan. Kazdan was rejected so often by George that when George asked him to return for the prequels he rejected for every movie. Every thing we see or hear in Star Wars prior to Disney was either created by Lucas, or specifically picked out of a group by Lucas, mans always been crazy involved with his films
Lucas didn't pick any of the people that worked on the EU. Kasdan was never rejected by Lucas. Read the story meeting transcripts. They got along great. Kasdan was not interested in writing the PT and he only did TFA as a bargain for "Solo".
@@soybasedjeremy3653 I didn't say that. I never said that Bane was not shown in TCW. Malek and Revan are not Lucas creations. They are mentioned or implied in Disney canon, but not in TCW.
He certainly knew how to pick actors. Just look at American Graffiti. He was big on chemistry and very charismatic actors. I almost wonder if this was deliberate (or subconscious) because he was so bad at directing them that he knew he needed people who sort a directed themselves. Mark Hamill has talked about this.
The best example of the difference in storytelling between Lucas and Disney is that Disney heavily alters a story based on fan reactions or profit. Whether it be multiple test screenings or failed box office numbers, Disney will blatantly sacrifice canon or the plot itself just to get a desired response. Constantly changing directors and rewrites undermine everything they do. At least George would stand there and defend his product without casting morality judgments on his critics. Who was Snoke? How did Palpatine return? Why isn't Finn a jedi? Who's the kid with the broom? How did Luke fight as a younger hologram of himself and Kylo never noticed? How can Kylo use the force to snatch a necklace off of somebody on another planet? and on and on and on... When the politics behind the screen are impacting the story on the screen, you get left with a mess that can't be logically sorted out. That's why fans are just checking out.
That's not entirely true, either. If they cared enough about fan reaction, or even profit they wouldn't be going full hog with 'the message' and spitting at fans. No, Disney has been sniffing their own farts apparently for years, and now telling us to sniff it and like it. And when we say 'no, that's gross', they spit at us telling us we don't know any better, and they're going to 'make us' like it, if they have to shove it down our throats. But they can't control us giving them the finger and walking away. So, all they can do now is keep hating us, using name calling in hopes to guilt us to come back, pay other people to try and convince us, and just throwing a tantrum like a spoiled child.
I'm pretty sure George Lucas cut down a bit on politics in Attack of the Clones/Revenge of the Sith after fan feedback on Phantom Menace, but that's about it. Oh, and please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm working off of what I've heard on the internet.
@@robertlupa8273 lol, not that type of "politics", I'm talking about behind the scenes like firing directors/actors or the DEI stuff. I mean, Bob Iger told Lucasfilm to not make Star Wars films after Solo failed. As for fan feedback, I'm specifically talking about the massive amounts of test screenings and reshoots that Disney does. Lucas never fired somebody and then re-shot the entire movies with somebody else.
The dumb move was for Disney to inject culture war bs into an actual property. People will be people. And people like to indulge in bs. But they like to do it in places like tweets or reddit posts. Disney bringing in political talking points trending in the culture wars is really just them tweeting at people in the form of tv shows. Nobody wants to watch 8 episodes of a long political reddit post. We already have reddit for that kind of thing.
Which comes first: the midichloians or Force sensitivity? Meaning- does one need to have them first (biologically) in order to be sensitive to the Force; or are they just measurable reactions to someone who becomes Force sensitive?
@@MysticLoungewell the force is always there but your also born with the cells so the more you have the more in tune with the force you could be but you still gotta be trained
I heard rumors that between the classic SW and the prequels, along the way George Lucas lost his belief in religion, and that was why he changed the definition in the force. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but it would certainly explain some things like this.
This is what I have needed. A different opinion than my own, but one the is respectful and comes from a place of love and and is mature unlike so many other channels that just want to spout angry keywords to get a rise out of their audience. I really needed this. I've mostly enjoyed all that has come from Star Wars since the Disney Buyout. Some things aren't perfect. I'm not the biggest fan of some projects, but it's mostly been a positive experience for me. I don't know how anyone could have the time and energy to be so angry about something. I love many different things, I love exploring ideas and concepts, themes and characters and some might not see it, but these recent stories have given me that. Great work!
Thanks for your comment, and I'm glad you got something out of it. I actually started work on this video before the Acolyte came out, so its realized being timed with a raging debate about canon is somewhat coincidental (though I tried to acknowledge it in my edit). Personally, I "don't have a dog in this fight" - I'm not devoted to any particular view of Star Wars canon. And I share your frustration with the so called "rage baiting" on this platform, which seems ironically to be the cause of at least some of the discord in the fandom. My point was mainly to argue that the debate MATTERS because this is how we process what is right and wrong - through stories. Even so - this video has a lot of comments about how I don't TRULY understand medi-chlorians, or the bible. To quote Palpatine, "it's ironic."
The creator's work is canon in my book. Who cares who owns it? Without George Lucas, there would be no Star Wars. Without Disney, there would still be Star Wars.
@@russianoverkill3715TFU had his approval to create it, it wasn't part of the main canon. George Lucas said every project created in the EU was it's own universe and TFU was it's own canon. PS: I think that TFU novels were canon to TFU story, not the games
The love/hate relationship between fans and Lucas has always intrigued me. The Disney era of star wars has been totally without consistency, given its lack of a single visionary creator. The plots of 7, 8, and 9 show this clearly. Legends era star wars suffered from the same issues. There is no perfect author, though. People hated Lucas pretty much from ROTJ on. It makes me wonder if any creative project as grand in scope as star wars is inevitably crushed under its own weight.
Star wars fandom parallels star wars itself. The always repeating cyclical nature of having hope despite the odds, being rewarded with something great, then a rise of hate and dissatisfaction, and rinse repeat. Star wars owned by Lucas and then Disney parallels the sith and rule of 2 with the apprentice trying to gain a new apprentice and destroy the former master. NO ONE LOVES star wars as much as star wars fans. NO ONE HATES star wars as much as star wars fans.
You are asking the right question I think. The longer Star Wars goes on, the more it seems to be struggling. And that might be precisely because of what you point out - the dilution of authorship, and the inevitable fact that stories have a finite amount of narrative possibility before the logic of the story just gets corrupted. Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts.
@@theartofstorytelling1 but how does that relate back to your comparisons of religion and star wars? There is a decline of Americans who identify as Christian each year same in Britain. Is star wars like Christianity in those nations just losing its purpose for people? But if so how come myths like lord of the rings or even marvel and DC, tho they are kinda different than star wars and lord of the rings, can seemingly survive the decline?
@@theartofstorytelling1This is why our copyright system is broken - 95 years after the death of the author (or corporate publishing date) is *way* too long. Even the prequels would be very nearly in public domain by now under the law in place at the start of the 20th century. If you can't make enough money from a story by nearly three decades after you published it to justify writing it? You are a failure of a company.
@@doomsdayrabbit4398 Interesting point. I agree that copyright laws are massively skewed against the public interest, and even still they're always trying to extend those dates, Disney most litigious of all in that battle. Weird to think that it WILL happen one day though. Imagine a world where any indie filmmaker can make a Star Wars film. I guess at that point, canon will cease to exist as we know it.
There is only one major issue here that I contest; you say towards the end how that Disney got the short end of the stick since they obtained Star Wars, but not Lucas, which is part of the issue with inconsistency of reception, quality, and imagination and direction of the content. But that right there is why so many of us treasure the old Expanded Universe, because new and talented artists (mostly but not solely, writers) came in to tell new stories, post Return of the Jedi and for thousands of years prior. For almost four decades, there were numerous books, numerous games, numerous short stories that were hailed and praised by SW fans as being fantastic pieces of work, that fit in with the canon of the movies. The ones that deviated from that were condemned. The Crystal Star, for example, a novel that features Han and Luke behaving VASTLY different from their established characterizations, with very out-there concepts that fitted in more with a Star Trek episode than in Star Wars, and to this day holds infamy among fans for how bad that novel is. Yet, with Disney Star Wars, the most well-received projects they've produced were The Mandalorian Seasons 1 and 2, and Rogue One; and even those were not universally praised by fans. So in 10 years since Star Wars changed hands, of somewhere around 30+ books, five movies, seven television series (most of which with multiple seasons), Disney has yet to achieve a perceived fraction of the reception and praise that the old Expanded Universe was given? Talented artists and authors didn't just disappear overnight in 2012. Timothy Zahn, writer of what many consider to be the true sequel trilogy of "Heir to the Empire" didn't vanish into thin air, and in point of fact, has written several books FOR DISNEY that feature his created character of Thrawn. But even then, the majority of the people who read them and enjoyed them? They did so because they were fans of the character from the old EU and his qualities as an author. So what is the issue? Why can't they do what the Expanded Universe did? Because of the very reason that Star Wars is such a clusterfuck since they bought it; coprorate incompetence. When you disband the EU, and start from scratch and claim whatever you make is the new canon, it HAS to be of high quality and a lot of thoughtful consideration has to be made to stick the landing from such a bold jumping off point. From the horse's mouth, they stated they did not have a clear and consistent plan for the Sequel Trilogy of films. This is why, as much as I despise the concepts of The High Republic, the fact is that they DID have a clear and concise direction for it, but like a few old EU series or books, it failed because it wasn't well done or well received by most. The fact is, the reason Star Wars is such a hot mess is because the people who own it don't know what to do with it, and they keep screwing up what they try because they don't stop and think outside of social appeal, targeted demographic marketings, public image, and monetary gains. They throw at the wall what they think will be financially successful, based off of the same warped perceptions that many massive corporations have regarding what is wanted or will sell. But with the EU, if it didn't stick? They'd finish that project and then work to not repeat the same mistakes again (which to be fair, didn't always happen either). And all of that doesn't even touch on the fact that they have retconned or messed up lore mechanics and rules within the universe on my numerous ocassions with little disregard until, surprise surprise, it writes them into a corner and they have to re-retcon the matter to "fix it". Star Wars is dying because Disney is so distracted by trying to make profit, they're standing on the necks of the fandom and turning more and more of them away. It's business incompetence, simple and plain as day. Well, that, and allegedly, a LOT of pettiness behind the scenes that they have and keep making mistakes and don't like receiving that criticism, even less so when the profits or lack-there-of actually back those criticisms up. Other than that, good video; wish it was longer and dug deeper into the meat and potatoes of some parts of the topic though.
Funniest thing is, they kind of DID get George Lucas's brain along with the contract. He literally placed a script down for the sequel trilogy. And Disney took that script and threw it in the trash. So, yeah.....that's all on them.
Congratulations for the Chanel and video, your work is one of the best and most insightfull discussions about storytelling on the platform so far, I wish you a lot of success, we need this level of knowledge and maturity in public discourse, thank you so much for providing some of that, especially with Star Wars.
Thanks for your kind words! I think there's so much to discuss in Star Wars, and personally I think there's a lot of space to talk about it constructively and have fun doing it.
@@theartofstorytelling1 I completely agree with you, I just want talking about Star Wars and having fun, but I guess that the most vocal part of the people just want to get mad, espred some hate discourse and try to kill Star Wars lol
5:35 FFS! The Force isn't Midi-Chlorians! It lives in Midi-Chlorians! It connects living organisms to the Force. That's how they judge their strength by using them.
Yup, people don’t get that and use it as a way to say the prequels suck when they straight up don’t get it. The midichlorians effectively do nothing but explain how an individual is connected to the force, and they double as a storytelling device to show to the viewer that the Jedi of this era have lost their way a bit
@@oldylad To be fair, the person who made this video is mistaken about a great many things. He also thinks there is a Year Zero in the Gregorian Calendar, and he thinks the removal of the Deuterocanonical books was a retcon when the actual retcon was when the Roman Catholic Church added those books (they weren't included in the ancient Jewish canon). He looks human, but he has the brain of a Gamorrean. (pig-like alien that Luke Force choked in Return of the Jedi)
I never said the Gregorian calendar has a year zero, only that the birth of Christ coincides with year zero (would you dispute that?). Yes, the deuterocanonical books were added to the Torah, but they were ALSO removed by the protestants at a later time, were they not? Also, I DO look like a Gamorrean. All your facts are wrong here.
@@haljordan777 Like modern Christianity, Judaism back in the day had many sects (pharisees, sadducees, etc.), many of which, according to my understanding, accepted some of the deuterocanonical books and some which didn't. Either way, there are, as I understand it, certain Jewish traditions tracing back to Maccabees, so those are, at least, canon by practice. Another example of canonization by practice is Raphael, an angel commonly accepted as canonical by many Christians today who stems from the book of Tobit, thereby Tobit is generally accepted to at least have some truth in what it says (even if Protestants would like to say otherwise). I'm not saying that every book that contains a generally-accepted truth is canonical (for instance, the names of Mary's parents in Catholic tradition, St. Anne and St. Joachim, are taken from a book considered non-canonical by Catholic standards, but that is likely because, if I'm speculating, the Church may have seen reason to believe its historical veracity but not its theological interpretation), but the fact is that the Church didn't just randomly add these books to canon as they already had a certain canonical veracity.
Thanks, I really do think that's a big mistake that people high up the creative industries make. They forget that ideas live inside PEOPLE, not on a page. There's a kind of arrogance and hubris in the idea that by BUYING Star Wars, Disney could MAKE Star Wars. Maybe then can, but only with the right people.
We also need to keep in mind Star Wars isn't the only franchise Disney has destroyed. Anything good that came to Disney they turned to shit. If there's a chance for any of those franchises to ever do good again, Disney must fail.
@@clarity2199 There isn't. But there shouldn't be anyway. Copyright needs to be reformed, and IPs should no longer be within the grasp of a corporate entity for any term surpassing thirty years. There's no reason Disney should even be seeing a damn cent from their version of Cinderella, whose entire crew, cast, and even most of those who would have seen it in theaters are *long dead* .
"Luke throwing the saber off the cliff was symbolic, he was Disney and the saber was Star Wars" That wasn't Luke Skywalker, that was Jake Skywalker. Even Mark Hamill himself said so. lol
To be honest, I'm not a fan of the Disney stuff, but I just ignore it and happily enjoy re-reading various legends books and comics. Would be nice if Disney would release all the unabridged legends books on audible tho
@@ActualLee42porque su función es explicar que personas son mas o menos sensibles a la fuerza, de esta se explica porque hay personas que tienen mayor capacidad para aprender a utilizarla que los demás.
@@ActualLee42 Because the more satellites you have in space, the better your satellite reception is going to be. Now take that statement and apply it to space mitochondria living in organic matter and the mystical energy field that surrounds said organic matter (The Force). They're just receptors or conduits. The more you have the more naturally gifted you'll be (so it'll be easier to pick up, you'll have a higher potential, and you'll probably display latent Force powers like Luke, Leia, and Anikan with really high counts). The reason to bring it up in the Prequels is because unlike Luke and Leia where Obi Wan & Yoda already knew they were Force sensitive because of their father - George needed a plot reason for how Qui Gon could know for sure that Anikan was more gifted in the Force than Yoda. So he came up with Midichlorians as a way to do that without contradicting or retconing anything, that serves a double function of giving a reason as to why Luke is so absurdly powerful in the EU stuff (Midichlorian counts can often be genetic & his father is a genetic freak of the Force).
@@jaernihiltheus7817"The more you have, the more naturally gifted you'll be" So without midichlorians you can't use the force, ergo the force are midichlorians 😮
Thank you for such a well researched, thought provoking, and well presented video. I remember watching Bill Moyers interviewing Joseph Campbell on PBS decades ago, and he directly referenced Star Wars as our modern mythology and a prefect representation of the Heroes' Journey. I grew up with the original trilogy in theaters and that will always be Canon for me.
Dude I loved this video! It was well researched, insightful, and quite witty at times. That was a great analogy between the church and SW canon, had me chuckling. Keep it up!
The consensus of the acceptability by the audience, measured by their migration in-to and out-of of fandom, is the definition of Canon. The original author only gets to plant the seeds. The audience can choose whether to water those seeds.
This is so interesting, great video!! One thing I’ll say that I’ll continue to watch Star Wars shows because it’s Star Wars, but there’s something about the George Lucas movies that leaves a lasting imprint on my mind. It’s like a true space epic that feels so real in my mind. I mean I literally have a Star Wars quote ready in my head for such small moments in my life. It feels so real, Disney can’t recreate that. There’s a certain feel, pace that the 6 movies have that just can’t be duplicated.
Historically, creators, owners, and authors do not determine what is "canon." History does, society does. A general consensus of what is considered authentic, important, worthy. So, even George Lucas himself cannot be the end-all, be-all designator of what is canon. Neither, obviously, can Lucasfilm or Disney. Ultimately, we the public determine what meets the bar. Hindsight is 20/20, and I think history will pretty clearly indicate what is canon to Star Wars, and what isn't.
You are right. Illuminated right. The only thing that all Star Wars fandom can see as Canon is George Lucas movies. No Rogue one, no heir to the empire, no clone wars, just the movies. The longer the Disney x fandom Feud continues, the long will be the time to add something else.
Very interesting video. And I think a mark of its quality is that so many of the comments have intelligent takes rather than just retreading the same old same old.
Original Trilogy Star Wars fan here. It makes me sad about the current state of canon after reading the books in the 90s and how Lucasfilm had a tight grip on what was canon back then. Writers weren't allowed to touch on clone wars or anything Anakin related (aka prequels). Mostly due to Lucas planning on going back to those stories at some point. Besides that it felt like there was a stringent approval process for what kind of content was allowed and if it fit in with what was established both in the movies and in other books. I believe Lucas himself had to sign off. Although it was so strict it worked amazingly well. You didn't hear people saying whether they accepted a certain book as canon or not. They would merely just say whether they liked it. With that said, there was surprisingly a lot of open areas for writers to create something new. It was nice to see new additions and still be respectful to established content.
OT fan here too. The problem is not WHAT is canon, but rather WHEN. People seem to forget when George released the prequels many fan groups cried out at once and then were silenced as obi said. Until 1999 many fans did create in their heads and fan fiction of the clones wars. They didn't just dislike his directing, vfx, writing, acting, etc in the prequels but also the fact they existed at all. Obviously without social media and Lucas being careful what he made canon officially aka official novels etc. Without social media back then obviously this fan fiction and fan theories weren't as well as recorded as now where it's easy to upload to social media. But fans did despise when Lucas made the prequels because he limited what stories could be told. That's why the Old Republic is still so popular with fans and why the Disney sequels are now hated. When unlimited fan stories get wiped out by Lucas or Disney fans revolt. Especially when none of their theories and ideas are incorporated as they'd like.
You raise an interesting point that I missed in the video - how changing media plays a role in this whole story. Social media means there is much more public dialogue about Star Wars, and its canon. That's a huge part of the equation.
Lucas demarcating the EU as an alternate universe starting back in 1991 was ignored because EU fans could pretend to themselves it was canon until he wrote something. Wookiepeedia catalogued all this EU content but also articulated how the EU couldn't fit with the true canon of Star Wars. EU fans pretended all of their canon was real but to varying degrees, contradictions smoothed over by faith in the EU. After years of saying the EU wasn't ever in his movie universe, Lucas wrote in 1999 and proved it. EU fans felt evicted from their ownership of the universe and coped with a "God in the Gaps" theory of canon. If it's not contradicted, it must have happened. This is absolutely not what Lucas ever agreed to. The EU fans arguing their canon is being "erased" reveal that the fundamental issue is that they ignored that their canon never existed except to their fanbase. It was never Lucas Film's or Disney's responsibility to contradict George Lucas and integrate an alternate universe that never integrated with itself.
My only problem with the prequels is Jar Jar. Other than that, I really enjoyed the prequels when they were released, and each episode was progressively better.
I think the canon debate is a symptom. I think the root of the problem is prioritization. Since the acquisition, Disney elevated narrative complexity over depth, production quantity over quality, and new markets over the legacy audience. I've heard multiple people say Star Wars is for kids, but I think that's just because it lacks complexity. The original trilogy is simple and linear, it includes elements of cuteness and frivolity, for children. But the deeper subtext for adults, analysts, and philosophers is an exploration of faith, growing up, fatherhood, and the search for meaning in mundane, elevating family and friendship over heroic feats and recognition. Meanwhile, new Star Wars emphasizes twisty plots, exploring new worlds, and diverse characters. These elements, while entertaining, are not for everyone. The tv shows in particular have seen a decline in quality, like the modern CW. Easter eggs and familiar characters link the series to the canonical core (whichever one you follow), but as shadows of their former selves. Despite giving Asoka and Obi-Wan new adventures, they feel like facsimiles of their original roles because of the weaker internal continuity and cheaper production design. There are so many new product lines with loose ties to one another, rather than reinforcing the canonical network, each new entry dilutes and diminishes cohesion. The debate on canon is a superficial lagging response to a decline in quality the legacy fans have come to expect. New audiences that haven't seen the original Star Wars and have no connections to it, may very well enjoy this new media, but they consume it like tik tok videos - quickly scan for dopamine hits, before moving on to the next shiny thing. Disney chose to compete with social media instead of the monomyth. That is the great schism. It's the difference between a lightsaber and a blaster. One is an elegant weapon requiring the force, skill and discipline to wield, while the other can be picked up by anyone without requirement who wants to feel a fleeting thrill of power.
11:53 technically true, but the 393 AD council of Hippo got its New Testament canon list from the already existing canon that the early church had. Also, the Old Testament canon wasn't hard and fast for Christians, so Luther's ability to question it was valid since Hippo didnt address it. And even then he didnt take the non-canon material out, he only sent it to the back of contemporary Bibles.
Disney may claim canon, but it isn't canon for me. Disney's Star Wars isn't actually Star Wars. Canon implies authority, and it needs believers in order to have any authority.
Disney has a bigger audience than anything from Star Wars since Revenge of the Sith and anything ever to come out of the EU. The Ki Adi Mundi age argument is directly from a tabletop RPG almost no one played or even remembers existed. George Lucas also said for decades that the EU was a marketing gimmick in an alternate universe. He never read or respected Heir to the Empire or Mara Jade. None of that was in his universe. So this isn't a fight over whether fans get to keep the canon. It's fans who never had authority who hoped George Lucas would abandon it to them finally and found no one cared about their corner of the Star Wars franchise enough to ever bother canonizing it in the first place.
@@MrBazBake so what you're saying is this vid and chat is filled with a buncha bogus believers who think their basement dwelling neckbearded ideals of starwars is what matters most? seems on point for sw fans
The Clone Wars, Rebels, Bad Batch, Mandalorian, and the Jedi games have been created (or finished) under Disney’s stewardship. I don’t love all of the company’s productions, but I believe they are doing a great job in diversifying and challenging the overarching universe.
Very interesting thoughts, I really enjoy your videos! A note though, I might suggest a bit more research into the biblical cannon. The early church father's writings (before the rise of the Roman Catholic church) actually do seem to show rather distinctly that the apocrypha, while given some respect as valuable writings, were not generally recognized as canon originally.
Thanks! It's a pretty deep rabbit hole - and I'm by NO means an expert. But I did hope to give the general lay of the land to make my argument. Thanks for watching!
Star Wars in the prequel Era was many different aspects that reached different audiences through other entertainment mediums. Gaming back in the Prequel hype train was massive and each game in some way added to the Star Wars narrative of the time. Much of it was even approved by Lucas himself. This is even further supported by the cancelations that were made By Lucas before Lucas Arts was canned by Disney. Particularly that Darth Maul video game was cancelled and a possible sequel to Star Wars Republic Commando was also cancelled. Going back to the prequel Era renaissance of Star Wars in the gaming space, one of the biggest Star Wars games if not one of the most influential Role Playing Games Knights of the Old Republic greatly expanded the Star Wars Mythos in a way that a movie never could. That is just one example.
And Disney already said if the Acolyte fails, they're going to mess with the Old Republic next. So get ready for them to destroy the last remaining decent vestige of SW, because they're coming for that next! Waiting for them to turn Revan into a minority boss girl Rey 4.0 as she strikes against all the soy Sith who aren't really evil just misunderstood.
Regardless of the money they paid, if enough fans reject Disney it cannot be cannon. Yes, they purchased it. But they can't 'make' people accept it, no matter how much they scream and name call.
The concept of canon is ridiculous anyway. Accept the stories you love, reject those you find objectionable. If Legends were still canon, I wouldn't pay any mind to the Yuuzhan Vong storyline or the battle of Jabiim since I dislike them so much. And even though it's the Disney era, to me Knights of the Old Republic 2 and Tartakovsky Grievous are just as canon as Andor, while Ahsoka, Book of Boba Fett, Kenobi and The Mandalorian (season 2 onwards) are not.
@@AthEE_One Happy to find another fan who likes Tartakovsky's excellent work on the Clone Wars in 2003 (what I consider to be the true Clone Wars). exactly what I do, reject the stories I find objectionable, hence all of Disney Star Wars + Dave Filoni creations are rejected by me (I call it not "real Star Wars"). The problem arises when Disney starts name calling me for rejecting it, saying that I am an ist and phobe :) (not me personally as I could not care less what Disney thinks but for the majority of the fanbase it is a big issue). Haven't seen a single show or film since TFA and Rogue One (which I actually like in parts) since the rot was obvious to me.
I’m getting really troubled by the habit of reanimating dead corpses with cgi to generate more profit even in cases where it’s obvious the actor wouldn’t have wanted it. To me it doesn’t demonstrate respect to the original artists to use their likeness without any ability for them to object but also a refusal to move on from the focus on nostalgia. Trying to recreate something in need of expansion.
Hey great video, I really appreciated you analysis. Can I ask given you understanding of the mythology and the cultural/historical underpinnings of Star Wars, what are your thoughts on The Last Jedi? Again great video.
Thanks for watching, and for your kind words. It's funny you mention Last Jedi because my original script for this video included more discussion about Luke's infamous light saber toss. I took it out for a few reasons. One: it's been analyzed to death. And two: it brought me a little too far off topic for this video. I'm thinking I might actually dedicate an entire video to talking JUST about that light saber toss, because for me, it is one of the most interesting and pivotal moments in the entire series. Like many people, I'm divided on how I feel about it. On the one hand, the image of Luke casually tossing excalibur aside is just wrong. On the other, what is the alternative? People blame Rian Johnson, but I would say the "blame" (if there is any) lies with JJ. He wrote Rian into a corner. Note that it's the only Star Wars film that ends in the MIDDLE of a scene. So Rian was unable to do the customary "time skip" between episodes to set up a new story (VERY important in a Star Wars film i would argue). He was BOUND to start his film in the middle of a dramatic scene, and this is a nightmare situation for any writer, especially having inherited a story with no plan. When you begin writing a story, you HAVE to start from a place of mystery, suspense, surprise. If Luke just took the light saber and said "wow this is so important and I'm fully on board with being a hero again", then there's nowhere for the story to go. There are many examples of this throughout Last Jedi, and the rest of the sequels. It all boils down to the challenge of trying to tell a story that - let's face it - ended very conclusively. I think there would good ideas in Ep 8 - the idea of Rey and Kylo teaming up, re-configuring the whole good vs. evil logic and pivoting the franchise in a new direction. But alas, I'm not sure that would have been any les divisive. Overall, I left Ep 8 feeling that they had missed some opportunities. If I do make this future video about the Light Saber toss, I'm going to mention one really interesting thing that I haven't heard mentioned before - though I'm sure somebody has noticed this. Luke ALSO threw his light saber away in the OT. At the precise moment he tells the Emperor that he'll never turn to the dark side, he throws his light saber on the ground, and is never seen holding it again. So, wouldn't it be a contradiction for him to just accept it when Rey gives it to him? Haha, anyway - we'll see where that ideas goes.
@@theartofstorytelling1 I agree that TFA was a failed way to begin the trilogy. Having said that, TLJ completely discards or ignores all the mystery boxes, and even though those mystery boxes were not that interesting, that is part of why the trilogy feels so disjointed. For example, why doesn't Rey go find Maz [since they established she knows the Force in TFA, meaning Rey doesn't have to rely on Luke] who also knows the Force and knows everyone? They just explain her out of the story with a hologram. As Brandon Sanderson said, "subverting expectations" should actually be giving us something more exciting than what we expected, not just different. I think Rian was dead set on making Luke broken, and that would be fine if he wasn't so pathetic and the whole movie wasn't such drudgery. I also don't think the ending redeems him sufficiently enough to justify the movie. Overall, I'm left feeling Ben and Luke falling out was a more interesting story to explore than the trilogy we actually got. We know they left Luke out of TFA because they were worried he overshadowed the new cast (Arndt confirmed this) and I think that points to how dull the new characters are, or rather how they didn't utilise their potential. I feel like both Rey and Finn have watched the OT and are cosplaying in the galaxy like LAST ACTION HERO. JJ is fast forwarding through Luke's character arc with Rey like all that matters is levelling her up and collecting the talisman. Rian wanted his Rashomon reference, to make Kylo sympathetic and a romance/join me between them, and just forced Jake to fit into those boxes. I think there was an option that wasn't used; The ending of TFA could actually have been a time jump when Rey leaves, or the journey could have been. They could have started with events that take place on the way, with Rey stopping off somewhere. Having Luke toss the saber away was obviously a meta 'f you' to fans and to establish the tory was going to twist, just like Luke's line in the trailers "this isn't going to go the way you think". It is understandable the character does that based on what happened to him, but the backstory feels really contrived to me, and we don't really establish why Luke allowed the relationship to become so toxic. Luke redeemed his father, so his father's saber would have meaning to him, even if it didn't to Jake Skywalker. Throwing down his saber in ROTJ is an act of defiance and triumph. Tossing it in TLJ is an act of petulance, cowardice and glib humor. I suppose some would argue "they rhyme" but I don't agree. I'd argue that *giving him* his father's saber actually rhymes with throwing down his own saber in ROTJ. I don't think Rian understands the difference between fun and parody, or if he does he decided to add parody to Star Wars (just as he added flashbacks) and just as JJ decided to make R2 and 3PO sidelined cameos (big mistake). His movie is borderline parody at several points, where Lucas used slapstick mainly with droids and aliens. And recently he tried to gaslight on Vanity Fair that fans didn't like his movie because it has humor and 'Star Wars has always had humor like the ewoks' as if this was the true/only reason for backlash and criticism to TLJ. I think the idea that Rey is looking for guidance and for Luke to reject her is actually a good one, but he could have just handed it back to her. And he could have refused to train her without telling her to "go away". Even being a cranky old hermit could have been done better without making him look goofy. I think it's entirely undone in a narrative that Rey's "failures" aren't really significant to her and she repeatedly rescues herself and everyone at the end. Although things don't go to plan when she leaves Luke, they actually go better in terms of outcome than we could reasonably expect.
Why is the argument always the same, we say you're breaking Cannon and the response is always your saying Star Wars isn't Star Wars enough. That is not what we said at all! We said they are breaking the preexisting story line, the things which made the franchise unique.
'buying Lucasfilm is not the same as buying Lucas' No he DID buy Lucas, in the form of story treatments for episodes 7-9. Had they adhered to them, or adapted them, it would STILL be George Lucas Star Wars, even if George himself was not at the helm, but they chose to throw it away.
Isn't that was Legends was? Personally, instead of me wasting time on Disney, I watch the fanfiction vids made by the fans. They're the best things to see SW right now, because the fans actually care about SW.
Grand Moff Tarkin: I love my Star Wars Cannon, Lord Vader. I love the sensor readings of Alderaan disintegrating in the morning. It smells like VICTORY. Vader: Olfactory stimuli do not travel in space. Tarkin: In the name of the Dark Side... Sheesh.
If this channel were as popular as it should be, I would expect a lot more...interesting...takes in the comment section, since religion and historical authenticity were brought up. As it is, it's quiet and nice down here.
5:29 Super sorry to insert but this is incorrect The Force isn’t Midi-chlorians, the midi-chlorians allows beings to interact WITH the Force. In most cases those with higher levels are just able to manipulate the energy around them and essentially create a frequency they can control and operate on that others just can’t, unless they train very very hard Everybody is has midi-chlorians in them but not everyone understands or wields the Force in the same way And if you think about it, if you apply the midi-chlorians to the story/plot, they didn’t really do much to detract from the heroes doing their thing and learning more about themselves thru the Force. That’s all on the audience if they concluded “oh anakin only won the pod race because his count was high”. More times than not the heroes still find hardship despite being “gifted” or blessed with talent. Luke certainly had his go of it, lost his hand and even the end still had to get saved by his dad. So at least in my opinion, there’s still mysticism in the Force, the midi-chlorians just ground things a little bit with a small bit of science fiction. Which if you think about Star Wars is a Sci-fi Space Drama of sorts I do really appreciate this video and your insights into the actual plot and function of the franchise as whole in society Would love to see your take on something like Dragon Ball or other really big IPs!
five minutes in and you have a new subscriber. You managed to link two of my favorite topics together and that is the canon of Star Wars and the Canon of Holy Writ as I have a profound interest in both!
It’s ironic. Disney acts like Star Wars is their IP, despite the fact their canon does not fit into the lore George Lucas created. Legends/Expanded Universe was 100% George Lucas approved. This also included movie novels, deleted scenes, video games, and the second Hexalogy of Thrawn Triology and Heir to the Empire. I never read the actual books, but I remember watching audio reenactments as a kid on UA-cam. I also played a lot of the classic Star Wars EU games like Jedi Academy, TFU, and ROTS video game. To me Star Wars was a beautiful work of art hand crafted through years of blood, sweat, and tears. George Lucas didn’t make Star Wars what it was by himself. He had a whole team to help him write down and bring his world to life. And the cherry on top, John Williams wonderful music. Star Wars died after TFA. I was willing to give Disney a chance, but after the atrocious way they treated our beloved legacy characters, I can never go back to them. I was even willing to go back after Mando S1 ending, but once again Disney chose to keep Mando part of their Sequel universe and that ticked me off. We saw Luke Skywalker as a Jedi again only to know the dark path he’d be forced to go on. I’m done with Star Wars but I will gladly make my own story. I’m gonna start my own series now for the heck of it.
It would be best if we all created our own stories now. Remember - George only created Star Wars because he couldn't adapt John Carter of Mars or Flash Gordon, but still took heavy inspiration from them.
"Bob Iger got a raw deal because he didn't get Lucas' brain" That one is firmly on Iger because when Lucas sold, he wanted to retain creative control, or at least have creative input. Lucas assumed the sequel trilogy would be made following his outlines. But Iger decided that, instead of harnessing Lucas' creativity and mitigating Lucas' worst tendencies with some well-chosen collaborators, he would take the "safe" (i.e. boring) route, cut Lucas out of the equation and essentially remake the original trilogy. Because Iger was spooked by the prequel backlash, he threw the baby out with the bath and it probably cost Disney literally billions of dollars. I have no doubt that whatever Lucas had in mind would have been as controversial as the prequels were in their day, and would have required some top-tier screen writing to warm the audience up to them, as well as someone with the authority and balls to go toe-to-toe with Lucas on some of his more questionable ideas, the way that Gary Kurtz did for the first two. Lucas seems to do his best work when he's got a little creative tension going on. But it would have been worth it to have Lucas' incredible imagination on full display, something that has been sorely lacking in every single Disney Star Wars production to date, even the few good ones.
Yes, you are right. I agree with you. 100% George Lucas is the author and the one who imagined and created Star Wars with its own unique nature. The problem with Disney’s “reinvention” of Lucas’s Star Wars is that it is of a completely different nature, and for the most part shares only the name Lucas created. This reinvention with very little of original music to set the atmosphere and spirit that tells us this is a Lucas Star Wars. Disney also completely changes the beat here with music that doesn’t evoke any similarity or feeling of the original under Lucas. It is bereft of the spirit of its original author or storyline and it uses literal tangible things originally created by Lucas like light sabers, unique droids, also created by Lucas and many other visuals. So not even light sabers, droids or the many other things Lucas created for these films were originated by Disney, and all Disney’s offerings presented to the devotees of Star Wars since 1977’s “A New Hope” is them going completely off the script with Star Wars spirit and universal canon inconsistent with the spirit and storyline of authentic Star Wars. Disney has bought nothing from Lucas for their $4 billion. Disney acquiring so-called rights to Star Wars is nothing but, as we have seen in the Acolyte a witches cauldron to brew their woke propaganda agenda, an unholy menacing concoction, a formula for chaos. They have certainly put disorder and chaos into Star Wars fans by Ripping apart the fabric of Star Wars as unrecognizable, incoherent, lacking clarity, and intelligibility, A SH•T SHOW! Star Wars 7,8,and 9. And now this complete bomb called, The Acolyte. That being said the best part of season one so far is episode 5’s big fight scene was one of the best I’ve seen, but that’s it. I can’t think the storyline is going to get any better with the fools that are writing this story, I’d fire them get somebody with some unbiased talent. So it gets a big 👎.
The Darth Bane trilogy is the best story ever told and if Disney wants a well received story they should gey Drew Karpyshyn to write something for them
I'm an OT purist, meaning I only consider the OT canon. I don't consider George's PT or whatever Disney has done over the past decade or so to be part of the same continuity. Some may say, "Well, George made it" or "Well, Disney owns it." I don't care. 1977-1983 is what Star Wars is to me (with maybe a small exception made for Timothy Zahn's old Thrawn books).
Personally, I've had my own gripes with Disney Star Wars over the years. But, I've had way bigger gripes with the fandom. The fandom itself doesn't understand Star Wars as much as they think they do. The fans always have an irrational emotional response to everything instead of a logical one. I see people shit all over Disney for flaws that have existed in Star Wars for decades before Disney ever came into the picture. People over-romanticize the pre-Disney days and either choose to have selective memory of the franchise's past flaws or they are simply too young to have been there at the time. Star Wars has ALWAYS been an aggravating thing to be a fan of. The canon and the lore always had massive shifts each decade. Star Wars lore was one thing before the prequels and then it changed completely after the prequels. Then it changed again after the Clone Wars show. The beloved "EU" and it's canonicity was always in a state of pending and was never set in stone canon. But, I see so many people arguing to death that it was indeed 100 percent canon, which is just completely incorrect. The outrage and the crying is silly by this point and it hard to take seriously anymore. This franchise truly did peak between 1977 to 1999. Once that first big lore shift happened with The Phantom Menace, the franchise just hasn't been the same. It's been constant nonstop complaining no matter if it's George Lucas, Dave Filoni, or whoever at Disney making these things.
Maybe, but we've gone way passed nitpicks, now. And this isn't only about Star Wars, either. Every franchise Disney has touched has turned to crap. We're talking Marvel, Indiana Jones, Willow, Toy Story, hell even Dr. Who (given, it was already going down, but they made sure to do their 'hold my beer' moment with it). If any of those franchises is to ever have a stones chance of being good again, Disney must be starved out to the point they go out of business and sold off into pieces, then hope and pray the next owners will learn from this and do better.
Who really owns Star Wars? There are two answers to that question and both of those answers are equally correct. The first answer is that George Lucas owns Star Wars because he is the creator of Star Wars. The second answer is that Star Wars fans (including myself) own Star Wars. As far as I am concerned, George Lucas and us fans get to decide what is canon and I say that only the first six Star Wars films are canon.
If saying would only make it so. Here is the objective truth: Disney owns Star Wars. George will always be the creator, but, he sold it to them; and us fans: we never owned it.
Great video as always! In A New Hope the computer could not hit the target that would destroy the Death Star many times over, but the Force could. We see the Force exert Its will through Luke, not the other way around, rendering technology's pretentiousness insignificant when confronted with the power of the spititual. My point seems random, I know, but what I'm trying to get at is that Disney thinks Star Wars is just aesthetics; that's why - in my opinion - the sequel trilogy looks Star-Warsy, but feels like a parody. The themes, the symbolism, the elements that make Star Wars the wonderful modern myth you perfectly made the case for are lost. Keep up the great work!
Wdym they are lost? Wasn't last Jedi a deconstruction of the myth of star wars? ROS was a retcon of that deconstruction or I guess a haphazard made re-construction. The Disney + shows range from furthering the myth, to expanding the myth, to adding a twist to the myth, etc. Disney seems to testing the waters for which element of star wars is THE ELEMENT. Each show is a test poking or pulling star wars in a specific direction to see if that direction reveals the atom or building block. And so far I think all they found is star wars IS STAR WARS when it's an indepth enhancement of George's pre-existing work with the 3-d clone wars animated show. Star wars can't grow past it's past. Like slave Leia or slave Anakin it's chained only unlike Anakin and Leia it can't escape it's captor, nostalgia. Star wars is a FEELING like the force. It's the almost spiritual first time a child sees and is wow'd by ep 1-6 of the films. It's a high that star wars fans aka junkies need a fixing for but nothing hits like that first hit anymore and the more hits disney offers the more the high becomes forever elusive
@@Thed538dhskDisney's best Star Wars work (that I've seen) is Andor and the Visions anthologies. They are high quality and are close conceptually to Lucas' work while taking the franchise into new creative territory.
The old republic was that change, but disney won't even touch it because they didn't create it, so they want nothing to do with it. Disney simply doesn't understand Star Wars enough to change it for the better. It's not that we don't want change, it's simply just been that all the change has been bad.@TheDCbiz
@@mattd5240 all the change has been bad? So everything since 1983 except exclusively fan related projects have been bad in your opinion? Lucas made changes and got pushback too so it's not exclusive to Disney, it's just repeating
@@Thed538dhsk Where in anything I wrote suggested that? While I haven't agreed with every decision George Lucas has made, none of them have been nearly as bad as the combined missteps that disney has made.
If by "our culture" you mean right-wing chuds online who ragebait over "woke ideology" and nitpick everything to claim "bad writing" has only just happened post-acquisition (as if the prequels are masterfully written), then sure, "our culture" is losing interest in Star Wars. But if you're trying to claim that the majority of everyday people as well as the most dedicated of nerds no longer enjoy this franchise, then I have to significantly disagree with you, there. The hardcore fans who are actually fans and aren't just the toxic corners of the fandom are still very much in love with this franchise. And the casual fans haven't noticed a difference and still go to the movies and watch the shows whenever they find the time. This "battle" is only real if you accept the exclusively online narrative at face value. Veteran nerds of any franchise like this know what the deal is from the beginning: there are often multiple continuities in these fictional worlds. Marvel and DC have multiple Earths. Star Trek has alpha and beta canon, and within those, two major timelines of alternative events. And beyond that, we Trekkers have always known that the books, comics, and games are considered apocryphal unless the movies and shows decide to bring elements from them into the on-screen canon for creative reasons. Halo has gold and silver canon. Dungeons and Dragons has multiple campaign worlds with all their own lore, characters, and events, plus an alternative dimension that connects them all together. And on it goes. To pretend like Star Wars is somehow the only mythology that has some special right to never have more than one continuity of stories is honestly pretty silly. None of us fans of other mythologies have ever felt like we had the right to dictate how the creatives involved in the fictional worlds we loved chose to thrill us. We just enjoyed being thrilled. When I read a Trek comic, I don't sit around and bellyache about how the story I'm reading "didn't really happen" and therefore isn't being given the proper "respect." I only care about if I like the story or not. Frankly, I love that I can experience an infinite number of stories that take place in this universe, across as many continuities as the authors want to write. It keeps things fresh and allows true artists to never be limited about what stories they want to tell. "Legends" in Star Wars was never canon. When Lucas was in charge, he went on record more than once stating that he didn't regard the Expanded Universe (as it was called then) as part of his canon. But he still let people write stories in that separate continuity because he knew he could sell more books and merch that way. And sometimes, when he wanted to take elements from the EU, like Coruscant, he did so. But he never felt like he had to adhere to it, and he contracted it several times (e.g. when he wrote Boba Fett as a clone rather than being an alias of Jaster Mereel). So, to pretend now as if Disney hiring people to now add more to the canon timeline is somehow rendering the Legends stories as less important or outright retconning something is frankly just revisionist. I'm a veteran fan of Star Wars from the beginning, and I always knew the EU and the films were not happening in the same continuity. It didn't bother me then, and it doesn't bother me now. There's plenty of room for both. The Legends books are being given the premium re-release treatment constantly under Disney's ownership. If they really wanted to "erase" that stuff like people claim, they wouldn't invest the time and money in these premium packages for those stories to find new life. But they have. There is no conspiracy to erase old Star Wars.
There is one conspiracy though: the executives at Disney *want* right wing loons pissed off so that Trump gets reelected and gives the executives exactly what they want: huge tax cuts!
There used to be a term called "Lucas canon" for a reason. It was considered canon until Lucas stated otherwise or until Lucas directed a movie that stated otherwise.
In order for religious canonization events to happen in history, one needs either spiritual authority that is recognized by the overwhelming majority of the community so they voluntarily go along with your decrees, secular authority that allows one to physical enforce a decision (destroying rejected books and killing dissenters), or a combination of both. With regards to works of entertainment, the closest equivalent you have to spiritual authority is intellectual authority. People who understand the material enough to add to it in a way that is consistent with the original vision, without destroying or damaging what is already there. Disney and Amazon lack that intellectual authority which is why the community rejects their works as being noncanon. The original authors of works( Lucas and Tolkien) do meet that intellectual qualification; which is why their additions are accepted. In regards to spiritual authority and Scripture, new canonical works would be recognized as consistent and true with existing canon by the community because God is the source for them all and God does not change. People, however, do change. Lucas and Tolkien changed their ideas over time. But they respected and understood their own material well enough to be able to make changes in a way that generally was consistent with itself and improved the story rather than damaged it. In the absence of the original creator serving as a closely involved overseer, no one should ever try to add onto a mythological entertainment franchise like that without employing experts on staff who have veto power over proposed stories. Amazon, ironically, did hire someone like that at the start, but then promptly fired them because they didn’t actually care about the lore and did not want to listen to anything they had to say about why their story was wrong. Disney might have the secular authority to control who can tell new star wars stories, thereby to some extent forcing their message and silencing alternative voices - but they cannot erase the past works that have already been created and force the existing fans to accept their new drek as legitimate. So Disney lacks the necessary authority to force their new message to become canon. They still require the agreement of the people to go along with it. They can’t order all past copies of star wars destroyed and burn fans at the stake who express disagreement with new Disney products (although they certainly try to do so figuratively by attacking the fans in the media as being a litany of “ists and isms” for not consuming the shit disney is shoveling out). Shows like Rogue One or early Mandalorian only have the possibility of being accepted as canon by the fans because they passed the intellectual test of lore consistency and understanding the original vision of star wars. This is only achieved because they are one of the few Disney productions where a legitimate knowledgable fan who cared about star wars was given the reigns over the production. And even mando went off the rails and was rejected by fans when Disney started mandating changes, taking creative control away from the one who birthed the vision for it. Almost all other Disney products are produced by people who don’t care about star wars, know nothing about it, and actively despise anyone who does. Lucasfilm figures have admitted on more than one occasion that they specifically look to put people in positions of power because they know nothing about star wars. They want people who will push “the message”, because knowledgable fans will push back against corporate dictates if it would destroy the lore of star wars. They want people who don’t care about the lore so they will do whatever they are told. The reason the clone wars TV series is not canon is because it is too lore breaking. And the reason it is, is because Lucas was not directly involved enough and Dave admitted that he went against what Lucas wanted on more than one occasion. That is why anything Dave has tried to produce afterwards, like Ashoka, is shit and rejected as noncanon by the fans. He caves in to the current lucasfilm agenda and doesn’t understand or care as much about the existing lore as he does about telling whatever new story he wants.
i personally only consider the george lucas star wars mythology to be legitimate. while yes disney may own the star wars IP they do not control the publics view of the mythology. similar to frank herberts Dune books and the additions that his son made to them.
The sad part is Disney ruined SW the only way to make SW great again is probably if someone or group can come up with enough money to buy it away from Disney.
Canon is something tiered. George has the best claim, Disney have their version, but it is up to each one to define what is believable and what is not.
The Force is not the Midiclorians, they're just the conduit for it! It explains why all living things in the galaxy have a connection to the Force, while those from outside the galaxy do not. Nothing was retconned, the Force is still just as magical/spiritual as it always was.
Ok, but what you seem to be missing is that the extent to which a story is "mythical and symbolical" is precisely the extent to which its "canon" doesn't matter, which is the whole point of analyzing a story as "archetype" in the first place. It's no coincidence that King Arthur has no "canon" worth disputing, while the Bible is a "religion" to exactly the extent that one thinks it has a "canon" at all. To bemoan Star Wars for it's lack of "canon" while also detailing its status as "myth" is to miss the point of your own argument. The "authorship" as "canon" that you refer to has more to do with how we declare a story as something a person can own, and thus have exclusive control over. But that just an expression of our own capitalist peculiarity.
I have to say this is a very good criticism of my argument. To the degree that Star Wars is mythological, it is to that same extent NOT canonical. Myths are re-tellings of re-tellings, and the mutate and evolve with each telling - the exact opposite of canon. So there is a contradiction there. Thanks for watching!
Buying a franchise cannot buy the hearts of the viewer....it is something they must earn. Disney basically purchased Star Wars, then threw a pile of shit on a plate and told us 'This is Star Wars, eat it'. They can't 'make' the fans accept it, no matter how much they paid for it. Ultimately, in the end it's the choice of the viewer. And if enough fans refuse to accept it, no money in the world can make us believe otherwise.
I think this is one of the most interesting things about canon; it only exists inside the minds of people. It's a shared consensus, and in NO world will everyone agree on everything. I suppose in that sense it's like anything else in the world - the value of money, the legitimacy of laws or governments.
I think Disney should adopt a modified version of the old Lucasfilm canon system that will allow them the flexibility to write new material with some ability to adjust for feedback from the fandom. Not a veto system, more like a notice and comment rulemaking American government agencies use. (Make your comment and maybe we'll adjust if need be) Something that give the fans a sense that they aren't being dictated to by interlopers whose sole claim is legal ownership while protecting that ownership. Also, 12:57, you're using Immaculate Conception wrong. Conception requires a mother and father, which is why it isn't used to describe Jesus' incarnation. Yes, I will die on this hill.
midichlorians is just a plot tool to confirm in the viewers eyes that Anakin is in fact the chosen one. it doesn’t really diminish the spiritual aspect of the force, and the enlightenment a force wielder needs to attain. knowing path and walking it are different things. but people got that concept in the most flat way possible. that is not to say that Episode 1 is not boring and childish, but character and world building wise its ahead of everything Lucas did in the entire OT!
I get what you're coming from with Canon. But I think it matters too with the continuity of Star wars and their character arcs of each character each and every new series from Star wars like Obi-Wan the acolyte and even the secret trilogy seems to break the timeline of Star wars the things that didn't happen such as Obi-Wan and Darth Vader fighting again even though the last time they fought was during revenge of the sith. A character being born in a time period before he was born. Or The witches conceiving a baby when Anakin was supposed to be the baby born from the force. Shows like Cobra Kai don't really have any issues like this if they follow the stories through the characters since the first film and even their worst film and they still made it work and have new characters that people can see and enjoy. Would you even argue that Star wars writing quality has not been the same since then?
This agree with, and is the best defence that the integrity of canon is important. If we grant that the Star Wars canon is meant to stand as a single unified story, than any intervention in an existing narrative changes the logic of related events. So your example of Obiwan facing Anakin between Ep3 and Ep4 is a good example. In some sense, it changes the meaning of Obiwan's duel in Ep4. I think it's possible to still watch that scene and put any other media out of mind and enjoy it for what it originally was. But the point still stands. In my opinion, one of the most egregious blunders is "undoing" Anakin's sacrifice by having the First Order simply rise out of the Empire, and having Palpatine "somehow" return. So yes, to your point, that is lazy writing. On the other hand, I think we have to recognize that NO writer in that situation could write Eps 7-9 without, in SOME way, undoing the neat little bow that Ep 6 ended on. Unless they just skipped ahead a century and didn't bring back any old characters (which clearly was not an option for Disney).
I think if a story is handed off to someone different from the original creator. It's more of a responsibility to maintain some form of consistency With the original works. Disney and the ones in charge of the franchise wanted to recreate the franchise in their own image.. This is where the discourse comes in. People didn't mind the extended universe even if they don't quite get everything right. Because it's separated from the canon of the original 6 movies. Disney Star Wars is basically telling you everything they do is canonical. Suddenly the standards expected from fans shoot up dramatically. Because every show, movie, game from this point is as important as the main movies. Personally I don't think what we've been given over the years from Disney had followed through on that point of consitency. It feels like something completely different now with each new show it just veers further off.
Nicely done! Picking up on the closing, the Author/Prophet, inconveniently, didn't have Apostles, or at least none that have appealed to the faithful. Nor is there a series of Great Tomes, like Tolkien. Nor is he dead. So we have this weird late-stage Recession of the Prophet where no one can renew his achievements, and the successor owner is a vast byzantine bureaucracy will no heart and no vision. [Leaving aside the current display of storytelling incompetence]. I'm often stunned at what a poor dealmaker Iger is. If you're buying IP/brand, the sensible move is to lock up the creator on your payroll for X period, like 7 years, as part of the workout and non-compete arrangement. You don't want fans looking at the new stuff and thinking "err, dunno about this, what does George make of it? Would George approve?" And I've been tracking the Hulu deal's endgame. What a mess. Iger has sold open-ended financial risk to his Board and investors three times. Slow learners.
My impression was that Iger was scared of the prequel backlash, and the lingering sense that Lucas had somehow destroyed Star Wars. Feels like maybe a huge overcorrection, looking back. Because you're right - the smart thing to do would be to retain Lucas to some degree, and keep his name attached for legitimacy.
I agree with pretty much everything, but I don't think enough weight was given to how "lore breaking" arguments can be used to decanonize a work, especially if how it's seems to be the primary argument for something being made canon or left out of a canon for IPs we love (and in the history of religious texts). You are right that ultimately it boils down to consensus, but rational arguments can be made that are more or less convincing. Had Luther's gripe with the Catholic Church been purely political, it might not have been as widely accepted. Take the Gospel of Judas for example. Aside from the facts that it was written a few hundred years after the other Gospels and was not as widely spread throughout the world (we only have one ancient copy compared to the thousands of copies of the Gospels), the Gospel of Judas paints an extremely different Jesus with a very different philosophy and theology presented. Even if it were as wide spread as the other Gospels the mere content contradiction gives strong evidence that it is part of a different canon, even if it had the same authors as the other Gospels
I think Disney and Rian Johnson *did* understand the mythological foundations of a Star Wars story, they just deliberately rebuked them. Luke throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder was a direct acknowledgement and refutation of the hero's journey and traditional storytelling. Unfortunately it was handled with all the finesse of a 15 year old amateur novelist that just discovered what cliches are thinks everything he writes has to be hyper original or deconstructive now.
The dumbest thing LucasFilm ever did was pretend the EU was on the same level as the films. Short-term, it allowed hard-core fans to get really invested in something a tiny percentage of fans would bother with. Long-term, it was always going to be sacrificed the moment it proved inconvenient. You were the girl in the car in Death Proof that got asked by Atuntman Mike if you were going left or right. It just took you a lot longer to start getting scared. Lucas had no problem ditching stuff when the prequels were developed and had he made his sequel trilogy, he would have wiped all the post-RotJ canon, too... because it never really mattered. He's been wiping stuff from Continuity since 1978 when he completely ignored a Holiday Special and a sequel novel.
For me George could change whatever he chooses in the story, because he created it, anything and everything comming from him has to be cannon😅. Disney SW is not Star Wars at least for me
To me, something like Star Wars is whatever George Lucas says it is. He created the characters, the universe, all of it, in the same way that George RR Martin created Game of Thrones and gets to say, confirm, or deny whatever he wants about any of it, because it's his. In TV and movies, the owners of franchises tend to be corporations that only tell stories as a means to profit. They don't care about being consistent and they have no respect for the property. We have seen this countless times with sequels that exist solely because the original movie did well, and the end up retconning things just to make the sequel possible or they completely destroy a character's personality or arc for the sake of having a second movie make sense. They don't care. They just want to print more money. The people who write this drek are mercenaries that live in Los Angeles who write and make up whatever they're told to, and they have no problem destroying established lore or killing off characters if the studios demands it, as it often does because it would rather kill off a popular character than pay their increasing salary for making yet another movie. All of it is soulless, corporate greed. Sometimes they manage to make something good. Often, they don't. And I think it's totally fine for a member of the audience to pick and choose which movies they want to accept as canon because the reality is canon means NOTHING to corporations because they're willing to invalidate previously established facts, retcon events, and do whatever else they want if they think it'll make them more money. With that complete lack of integrity toward the franchise, and the fact every movie is written by different teams of people and directed by different teams of people, etc, all hired for that one specific task like mercenaries and then leave it behind until they are approached to negotiate a more profitable contract for themselves to make additional movies, it shows a very clear and obvious distinction between someone who OWNS the characters and story vs someone who CARES about the characters and story. They are not the same. Ergo, nonsensical canon as dictated by a corporation doesn't really make any sense to follow or adhere to unless you happen to also like it, because it can completely change and flip on its head at their whim, so it is meaningless anyway. However, people who are creatives first and actually make their own art for the sake of loving story telling produce the only real and true canon that deserves respect and consideration. The single authors that write stories like Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, Star Wars, are the ones that actually care about that world and its characters and understand them better than some room full of suits ever will, as well as understanding them better than some mercenary for hire writer that takes other people's work and warps it to fit the studio's demands. Regardless of what you may think about the individual who is the author, they are still the creators and sole arbiters over truth and reality in their respective realms that they created. Even if they sell the rights to someone else to make a movie or a tv series or whatever else using their work, it's only as canon or non-canon as they deem it to be. To compare it to art... It would be like BUYING a classical painting by Da Vinci or some other classical master of their craft, then modifying the image yourself, then claiming the new image as your own work and expecting everyone to just go along with it and like the changes you made to it. I mean, you have the legal right to do it, since you own the painting, but no one is going to respect that, and anyone that actually cared about the original will curse you forever for changing it and essentially destroying it by doing so. Having the legal right to produce or modify something does not give you integrity or legitimacy for doing so. Another good example is Winnie the Pooh. The moment the copyright protection for Winnie the Pooh expired, a low budget shock horror movie was made based on it just to try to capitalize on the sensationalism of it all to turn a quick profit. They had the legal right to do so, but should any of that slop be part of the Winnie the Pooh canon? We all know the answer there. Disney can buy Marvel, they can buy Star Wars, they can buy 20th century Fox, they can buy whatever other companies they want, and they can make movies or tv shows or whatever other nonsense they desire for a quick buck, but they can't buy the legitimacy and acceptance of the fans.
Why can we not have a single closed cannon, wherein everything outside is potentially accurate or inaccurate depending on how it lines up with The Cannon. 1-6 are the canon. Everything outside of that, whether masterpieces like Rogue One or pieces of trash like The Last Jedi, they are somewhat valid or invalid depending on how well they line up with the cannon.
I was hoping this video was going somewhere good but man you dropped the ball at 5:20 If you aren't even able to listen to what Qui Gon actually says and then i see no point in listening to you either.
(I'd believe you if you told me this was a parody of star wars) It really feels like this show is a side effect of this horrible trend that we keep seeing over & over. It's people getting positions, who seem to in no way DESERVE those positions. It doesn't seem like they hired them based off of talent or skill..? A show this expensive, with this famous of a subject, should Not have this bad of writing. The world design, the set design, the aesthetics, the overall look & feel of it's visuals as a whole come off pretty cheap. It's all so surface level & tacky. On top of everything people have already said, I also think the camera work in this is awful. This show genuinely feels like kids who are role playing as adults in order to direct this.. It really feels like it's deliberately going against everything that is Star Wars. It feels deliberately disrespectful to the lore and has no respect to the source material. Are they deathly allergic to having male characters? Are they allergic to quality storytelling, world building, character development.. This is awful! It really seems like whoever is making these doesn't realize Star Wars used to be a really well made world full of diversity. It didn't matter what kind of character, creature, species you were, they found great ways to convey artistic depictions of the Human condition. Creative ways that connect us all on a deeper level. Things used to take pride in finding creative ways to convey things. To give the audience feelings without overly explaining it. I really miss that. If you go back and watch "X-Men the animated series" It is so well crafted. The story of mutants was so universally relatable. Media back then found ways to abstractly teach me life lessons, touched on difficult situations, found intelligent ways to tell stories. Even when I watched it all grown up it really felt like the story is so well crafted and executed that anyone is able to relate to it in someway or another. It's stuff like that that we are so deeply lacking nowadays. So much so that literal kid's cartoons from the 90's told deeper and more mature stories than most media nowadays.
Its pretty straightforward: what Disney has done w/ Star Wars is the same as if the Mormons got the publishing rights to the Bible and then informed all Catholics they had accept the Book of Mormon as Scripture.
Yeah but Star Wars was written about Anakin Skywalker's awakening, rise and fall from slave boy, to Heroic Knight, to evil villain and finally his rise as a Force Ghost.
Legends is canon. What disney did was keep starwars alive and away from china by beating starwars till it went into a coma. It just needs a revive. (new ownership)
the only reason it appears to be an issue of authorship is because george lucas as been shifted from a focus of fan ire to fan worship. certain kinds of “fans” will always find reasons to hate new star wars, whether lucas is at the helm or is a deified figure representing an imagined golden age. now that lucas is gone, it’s easy to spin a narrative that some gargantuan, nebulous entity named disney is solely at fault for making lackluster stories - when the beloved old EU produced just about as many stinkers as this new era is. many people’s foundational idea of star wars and canon has always involved ideas that didn’t come from lucas, many of which he straight up ignored or disliked, though he cherrypicked ideas and character he liked as well. we’d be having this same conversation if lucas steamrolled the old legends canon to make his own sequels. the old EU was groaning under its weight and size after 35 years of material; some big reboot of some kind was probably inevitable. when the biggest fan complains over “canon” materialize into death threats over ki-adi mundi’s birthday, we know it’s not actually about canon any more. the most angry and outspoken “fans” now simply want star wars to be a battleground for the culture war. grifters have turned many fans’ love of the franchise into rage against disney, so many will despise disney content even if it’s good or does exactly what they want it to do. star wars has always existed in some shape or form outside of george lucas, and people have always made up their minds about what star wars they do or don’t accept. the fan outrage today rivals that of the prequels, and much of it is boosted by the fact that hatred is perpetuated by dishonest creators to make gobs of many from outrage clicks. despite your video’s high production quality, i don’t think you said a single interesting thing. i’m not sure what you’re proposing here - that the fans angry with disney ignore its canon and focus on the old EU? sure, plenty already do. but eventually lucas is going to kick the bucket; eventually, we will have a star wars with no george lucas no matter what timeline we’re in, and ever since 1977 we’ve had star wars stories written without him. so what should we do? just stop making more star wars? lame.
I'm not really "proposing" anything with this video. My point was mainly to point out that the discussion is important. I brought in the historical example to show that debates over canonical stories have always been around. The fact that this one is about Star Wars is not really important. I could have chosen any other fictional universe for this video. I mainly wanted to point out that the debate ITSELF is worth paying attention to, and says something about the importance of stories generally. Thanks for watching and I hope I didn't waste your time!
@@theartofstorytelling1 I see your point of view. As someone who has been on the pulse of Star Wars "debates" or "controversies" for a while now, it just feels like the ideas covered in this video are pretty well-worn and don't really address the current chaotic state of the fandom. I'll reiterate that most of the people who are most vocal about valiantly defending "George's canon" are mostly using it as ammunition to hate or delegitimize the current fans. It seems to me and many others that the source of intense Star Wars debate has less to do with the fluctuating quality of projects and more with disingenuous grifters inciting outrage over increasingly meaningless "infractions" against George and "canon"; less than 48 hours ago, people on Twitter got death threats over Ki-Adi Mundi's age. It's crazy times. Not that I think you're one of those people. I just think your takes are a bit lukewarm and don't address any current or serious major issues or debates going on. The conversation of what is "canon" is certainly interesting, but has been raging for years; Star Wars fans today would NOT survive the continuity upheaval of the Clone Wars, despite many claiming that Legends was more airtight and coherent than the current canon (it was not).
@@thevomchar1018 This is valid. For example, the old gripe about "medi-chlorians" is 25 years old at this point, so it's beating a dead bantha to even mention it. As I'm reading more about the current controversy, I'm realizing how intense it is (I started writing this video before the Acolyte even dropped). Seems like the debate is at a fever pitch. On one hand, people are saying the fandom is united in hating the Acolyte. On the other hand, I see a lot of fans upset that there's so much "rage baiting" on UA-cam. It's all a little over my head honestly. But I think it speaks to my point in the video: people really care about stories, and the "battle" over them is an important aspect of our culture worth paying attention to as perhaps symptomatic of bigger cultural issues.
12:53 Anakin was not immaculate conception, but virgin birth. They are too different concepts. Immaculate conception refers to the doctrine that Virgin Mary was free of the original sin from the moment of her own conception. Her conceiving Jesus Christ through the Holy spirit is called a virgin birth. The fact you get something this basic, that takes fives seconds of research to find out, wrong, makes the research you put into your entire video questionable.
All this hand wringing and brow furrowing over what’s “canon” is hilarious. The entire franchise has been glorified fan fiction for many years, who cares what’s canon and what isn’t. Grow up, cherry pick your own canon, and shut up about it 😂
Okay, after watching this entire video... I think we can boil it down to this:
There's a group of friends playing football.
Disney arrives, with it's shiny just bought ball.
Disney decides what the new rules of the sport are because "it's their ball".
Ofc the ball is theirs, nobody will argue with that. But also... The group of friends still have the old ball they were using, and they can ignore Disney's rules and ball.
I grew up with Star Wars. For me - and I think this is what you're getting at - the canon argument is a red herring. The real issues with Disney go much deeper. Is Star Wars just a 'universe'? Is it a story? Or is it a kind of storytelling? It's the latter for me. Star Wars was always more than just a time and place - a galaxy far, far away. George Lucas created an updated serial with western and samurai references. It was like a film experience within a film, which prioritized visual storytelling over dialogue. And it was a hero's journey, his response to the plethora of 1970s anti-heroes. These are the things that have been messed with.
Yes I agree, there are some really deep questions at the heart of this. It's so interesting because we're talking about a fictional universe. An imagined space. It literally doesn't exist. It's just a bunch of shared ideas. And yet there is so much passion about it, and it's so valuable - even in monetary terms. In any case, I think we can all agree that Disney's ownership has been clumsy.
@@theartofstorytelling1 I think you're being generous; I'd call their stewardship 'inept.' And it does exist in hearts and minds; we're talking about the cultural resonance of myths, after all. Which makes Disney's handling of this IP even more mind boggling. Could you imagine McDonalds changing the Big Mac to be a vegan burger with a salad? or Coca-Cola switching their formula to New Coke? Okay, maybe skip that last one.
@@theartofstorytelling1 Disney is treading very shallow water. If you break down the canon and show the audience you don't care about continuity within your own universe, why should we care? It also destroys nerd-dom that makes I.P.s so powerful and lasting. The lore, the merch, the endless talks at work and in comic shops... if all that ceases, then the staying power of the I.P. dies.
It's a multi-level mythology. The narrative is obvious, but as you said, the visuals are its own mythology.
@@panamajack5972 Danny Boyd of CinemaStix actually did an excellent video on this subject. Highly recommended ua-cam.com/video/gq0g0iW36cg/v-deo.html
I think we underestimate Lucas's ability to pick people. Timothy Zahn, Foster, Roy Thomas, Archie Goodwin, John Williams, Drew Sturzan, Steven Sansweet, his product design teams, Cam Kennedy, McQuarrie, his puppet factories, his entire ILM output.
He was great at it, except for Kazdan. Kazdan was rejected so often by George that when George asked him to return for the prequels he rejected for every movie. Every thing we see or hear in Star Wars prior to Disney was either created by Lucas, or specifically picked out of a group by Lucas, mans always been crazy involved with his films
Lucas didn't pick any of the people that worked on the EU. Kasdan was never rejected by Lucas. Read the story meeting transcripts. They got along great. Kasdan was not interested in writing the PT and he only did TFA as a bargain for "Solo".
@@mat0018Mat you keep repeating this than claim Bane was never shown, watch TCW. It hints at Revan and Malek.
@@soybasedjeremy3653 I didn't say that. I never said that Bane was not shown in TCW. Malek and Revan are not Lucas creations. They are mentioned or implied in Disney canon, but not in TCW.
He certainly knew how to pick actors. Just look at American Graffiti. He was big on chemistry and very charismatic actors. I almost wonder if this was deliberate (or subconscious) because he was so bad at directing them that he knew he needed people who sort a directed themselves. Mark Hamill has talked about this.
The best example of the difference in storytelling between Lucas and Disney is that Disney heavily alters a story based on fan reactions or profit. Whether it be multiple test screenings or failed box office numbers, Disney will blatantly sacrifice canon or the plot itself just to get a desired response. Constantly changing directors and rewrites undermine everything they do. At least George would stand there and defend his product without casting morality judgments on his critics. Who was Snoke? How did Palpatine return? Why isn't Finn a jedi? Who's the kid with the broom? How did Luke fight as a younger hologram of himself and Kylo never noticed? How can Kylo use the force to snatch a necklace off of somebody on another planet? and on and on and on...
When the politics behind the screen are impacting the story on the screen, you get left with a mess that can't be logically sorted out. That's why fans are just checking out.
That's not entirely true, either. If they cared enough about fan reaction, or even profit they wouldn't be going full hog with 'the message' and spitting at fans. No, Disney has been sniffing their own farts apparently for years, and now telling us to sniff it and like it. And when we say 'no, that's gross', they spit at us telling us we don't know any better, and they're going to 'make us' like it, if they have to shove it down our throats. But they can't control us giving them the finger and walking away. So, all they can do now is keep hating us, using name calling in hopes to guilt us to come back, pay other people to try and convince us, and just throwing a tantrum like a spoiled child.
I'm pretty sure George Lucas cut down a bit on politics in Attack of the Clones/Revenge of the Sith after fan feedback on Phantom Menace, but that's about it.
Oh, and please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm working off of what I've heard on the internet.
@@robertlupa8273 lol, not that type of "politics", I'm talking about behind the scenes like firing directors/actors or the DEI stuff. I mean, Bob Iger told Lucasfilm to not make Star Wars films after Solo failed.
As for fan feedback, I'm specifically talking about the massive amounts of test screenings and reshoots that Disney does. Lucas never fired somebody and then re-shot the entire movies with somebody else.
The dumb move was for Disney to inject culture war bs into an actual property. People will be people. And people like to indulge in bs. But they like to do it in places like tweets or reddit posts. Disney bringing in political talking points trending in the culture wars is really just them tweeting at people in the form of tv shows. Nobody wants to watch 8 episodes of a long political reddit post. We already have reddit for that kind of thing.
You mean like how Lucas altered his ideas for Jar Jar Binks because fan reactions were so bad it led him to pretty much sideline the character?
Okay, the medichlorians are not the force itself. They are merely receptors that can tell who can be force sensitive.
Correct. They were said to be tiny organisms that enable us to communicate with The Force, which is still an energy field.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think George was trying to signify the symbiotic relationship between life itself and how everything is connected.
Which comes first: the midichloians or Force sensitivity? Meaning- does one need to have them first (biologically) in order to be sensitive to the Force; or are they just measurable reactions to someone who becomes Force sensitive?
@@MysticLoungewell the force is always there but your also born with the cells so the more you have the more in tune with the force you could be but you still gotta be trained
I heard rumors that between the classic SW and the prequels, along the way George Lucas lost his belief in religion, and that was why he changed the definition in the force. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but it would certainly explain some things like this.
This is what I have needed. A different opinion than my own, but one the is respectful and comes from a place of love and and is mature unlike so many other channels that just want to spout angry keywords to get a rise out of their audience. I really needed this. I've mostly enjoyed all that has come from Star Wars since the Disney Buyout. Some things aren't perfect. I'm not the biggest fan of some projects, but it's mostly been a positive experience for me. I don't know how anyone could have the time and energy to be so angry about something. I love many different things, I love exploring ideas and concepts, themes and characters and some might not see it, but these recent stories have given me that. Great work!
Thanks for your comment, and I'm glad you got something out of it. I actually started work on this video before the Acolyte came out, so its realized being timed with a raging debate about canon is somewhat coincidental (though I tried to acknowledge it in my edit). Personally, I "don't have a dog in this fight" - I'm not devoted to any particular view of Star Wars canon. And I share your frustration with the so called "rage baiting" on this platform, which seems ironically to be the cause of at least some of the discord in the fandom. My point was mainly to argue that the debate MATTERS because this is how we process what is right and wrong - through stories. Even so - this video has a lot of comments about how I don't TRULY understand medi-chlorians, or the bible. To quote Palpatine, "it's ironic."
The creator's work is canon in my book. Who cares who owns it? Without George Lucas, there would be no Star Wars. Without Disney, there would still be Star Wars.
TFU had George directly involved, yet most of the fans think it makes no sense, George Lucas ruins Star Wars
@@russianoverkill3715Who would you have run Star Wars?
@@SK438 collection of writers who ran EU, maybe remove some of the bad ones.
@@russianoverkill3715TFU had his approval to create it, it wasn't part of the main canon. George Lucas said every project created in the EU was it's own universe and TFU was it's own canon.
PS: I think that TFU novels were canon to TFU story, not the games
@SK438 the most qualified.
The love/hate relationship between fans and Lucas has always intrigued me. The Disney era of star wars has been totally without consistency, given its lack of a single visionary creator. The plots of 7, 8, and 9 show this clearly. Legends era star wars suffered from the same issues. There is no perfect author, though. People hated Lucas pretty much from ROTJ on. It makes me wonder if any creative project as grand in scope as star wars is inevitably crushed under its own weight.
Star wars fandom parallels star wars itself. The always repeating cyclical nature of having hope despite the odds, being rewarded with something great, then a rise of hate and dissatisfaction, and rinse repeat. Star wars owned by Lucas and then Disney parallels the sith and rule of 2 with the apprentice trying to gain a new apprentice and destroy the former master. NO ONE LOVES star wars as much as star wars fans. NO ONE HATES star wars as much as star wars fans.
You are asking the right question I think. The longer Star Wars goes on, the more it seems to be struggling. And that might be precisely because of what you point out - the dilution of authorship, and the inevitable fact that stories have a finite amount of narrative possibility before the logic of the story just gets corrupted. Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts.
@@theartofstorytelling1 but how does that relate back to your comparisons of religion and star wars? There is a decline of Americans who identify as Christian each year same in Britain. Is star wars like Christianity in those nations just losing its purpose for people? But if so how come myths like lord of the rings or even marvel and DC, tho they are kinda different than star wars and lord of the rings, can seemingly survive the decline?
@@theartofstorytelling1This is why our copyright system is broken - 95 years after the death of the author (or corporate publishing date) is *way* too long. Even the prequels would be very nearly in public domain by now under the law in place at the start of the 20th century. If you can't make enough money from a story by nearly three decades after you published it to justify writing it? You are a failure of a company.
@@doomsdayrabbit4398 Interesting point. I agree that copyright laws are massively skewed against the public interest, and even still they're always trying to extend those dates, Disney most litigious of all in that battle. Weird to think that it WILL happen one day though. Imagine a world where any indie filmmaker can make a Star Wars film. I guess at that point, canon will cease to exist as we know it.
There is only one major issue here that I contest; you say towards the end how that Disney got the short end of the stick since they obtained Star Wars, but not Lucas, which is part of the issue with inconsistency of reception, quality, and imagination and direction of the content.
But that right there is why so many of us treasure the old Expanded Universe, because new and talented artists (mostly but not solely, writers) came in to tell new stories, post Return of the Jedi and for thousands of years prior. For almost four decades, there were numerous books, numerous games, numerous short stories that were hailed and praised by SW fans as being fantastic pieces of work, that fit in with the canon of the movies. The ones that deviated from that were condemned. The Crystal Star, for example, a novel that features Han and Luke behaving VASTLY different from their established characterizations, with very out-there concepts that fitted in more with a Star Trek episode than in Star Wars, and to this day holds infamy among fans for how bad that novel is.
Yet, with Disney Star Wars, the most well-received projects they've produced were The Mandalorian Seasons 1 and 2, and Rogue One; and even those were not universally praised by fans.
So in 10 years since Star Wars changed hands, of somewhere around 30+ books, five movies, seven television series (most of which with multiple seasons), Disney has yet to achieve a perceived fraction of the reception and praise that the old Expanded Universe was given?
Talented artists and authors didn't just disappear overnight in 2012. Timothy Zahn, writer of what many consider to be the true sequel trilogy of "Heir to the Empire" didn't vanish into thin air, and in point of fact, has written several books FOR DISNEY that feature his created character of Thrawn. But even then, the majority of the people who read them and enjoyed them? They did so because they were fans of the character from the old EU and his qualities as an author.
So what is the issue? Why can't they do what the Expanded Universe did?
Because of the very reason that Star Wars is such a clusterfuck since they bought it; coprorate incompetence. When you disband the EU, and start from scratch and claim whatever you make is the new canon, it HAS to be of high quality and a lot of thoughtful consideration has to be made to stick the landing from such a bold jumping off point. From the horse's mouth, they stated they did not have a clear and consistent plan for the Sequel Trilogy of films. This is why, as much as I despise the concepts of The High Republic, the fact is that they DID have a clear and concise direction for it, but like a few old EU series or books, it failed because it wasn't well done or well received by most.
The fact is, the reason Star Wars is such a hot mess is because the people who own it don't know what to do with it, and they keep screwing up what they try because they don't stop and think outside of social appeal, targeted demographic marketings, public image, and monetary gains. They throw at the wall what they think will be financially successful, based off of the same warped perceptions that many massive corporations have regarding what is wanted or will sell. But with the EU, if it didn't stick? They'd finish that project and then work to not repeat the same mistakes again (which to be fair, didn't always happen either).
And all of that doesn't even touch on the fact that they have retconned or messed up lore mechanics and rules within the universe on my numerous ocassions with little disregard until, surprise surprise, it writes them into a corner and they have to re-retcon the matter to "fix it".
Star Wars is dying because Disney is so distracted by trying to make profit, they're standing on the necks of the fandom and turning more and more of them away. It's business incompetence, simple and plain as day. Well, that, and allegedly, a LOT of pettiness behind the scenes that they have and keep making mistakes and don't like receiving that criticism, even less so when the profits or lack-there-of actually back those criticisms up.
Other than that, good video; wish it was longer and dug deeper into the meat and potatoes of some parts of the topic though.
Funniest thing is, they kind of DID get George Lucas's brain along with the contract. He literally placed a script down for the sequel trilogy. And Disney took that script and threw it in the trash. So, yeah.....that's all on them.
Congratulations for the Chanel and video, your work is one of the best and most insightfull discussions about storytelling on the platform so far, I wish you a lot of success, we need this level of knowledge and maturity in public discourse, thank you so much for providing some of that, especially with Star Wars.
Thanks for your kind words! I think there's so much to discuss in Star Wars, and personally I think there's a lot of space to talk about it constructively and have fun doing it.
@@theartofstorytelling1 I completely agree with you, I just want talking about Star Wars and having fun, but I guess that the most vocal part of the people just want to get mad, espred some hate discourse and try to kill Star Wars lol
5:35 FFS! The Force isn't Midi-Chlorians! It lives in Midi-Chlorians! It connects living organisms to the Force. That's how they judge their strength by using them.
Yup, people don’t get that and use it as a way to say the prequels suck when they straight up don’t get it. The midichlorians effectively do nothing but explain how an individual is connected to the force, and they double as a storytelling device to show to the viewer that the Jedi of this era have lost their way a bit
Exactly thats how I've always seen it, the "force" is the "force", the medichlorian connect you to the "force"
@@oldylad To be fair, the person who made this video is mistaken about a great many things. He also thinks there is a Year Zero in the Gregorian Calendar, and he thinks the removal of the Deuterocanonical books was a retcon when the actual retcon was when the Roman Catholic Church added those books (they weren't included in the ancient Jewish canon). He looks human, but he has the brain of a Gamorrean. (pig-like alien that Luke Force choked in Return of the Jedi)
I never said the Gregorian calendar has a year zero, only that the birth of Christ coincides with year zero (would you dispute that?). Yes, the deuterocanonical books were added to the Torah, but they were ALSO removed by the protestants at a later time, were they not? Also, I DO look like a Gamorrean. All your facts are wrong here.
@@haljordan777 Like modern Christianity, Judaism back in the day had many sects (pharisees, sadducees, etc.), many of which, according to my understanding, accepted some of the deuterocanonical books and some which didn't. Either way, there are, as I understand it, certain Jewish traditions tracing back to Maccabees, so those are, at least, canon by practice. Another example of canonization by practice is Raphael, an angel commonly accepted as canonical by many Christians today who stems from the book of Tobit, thereby Tobit is generally accepted to at least have some truth in what it says (even if Protestants would like to say otherwise). I'm not saying that every book that contains a generally-accepted truth is canonical (for instance, the names of Mary's parents in Catholic tradition, St. Anne and St. Joachim, are taken from a book considered non-canonical by Catholic standards, but that is likely because, if I'm speculating, the Church may have seen reason to believe its historical veracity but not its theological interpretation), but the fact is that the Church didn't just randomly add these books to canon as they already had a certain canonical veracity.
16:08 you knocked it out of the park with that point.
Thanks, I really do think that's a big mistake that people high up the creative industries make. They forget that ideas live inside PEOPLE, not on a page. There's a kind of arrogance and hubris in the idea that by BUYING Star Wars, Disney could MAKE Star Wars. Maybe then can, but only with the right people.
Luke throwing the saber off the cliff was symbolic, he was Disney and the saber was Star Wars
We also need to keep in mind Star Wars isn't the only franchise Disney has destroyed. Anything good that came to Disney they turned to shit. If there's a chance for any of those franchises to ever do good again, Disney must fail.
@@clarity2199 There isn't. But there shouldn't be anyway. Copyright needs to be reformed, and IPs should no longer be within the grasp of a corporate entity for any term surpassing thirty years. There's no reason Disney should even be seeing a damn cent from their version of Cinderella, whose entire crew, cast, and even most of those who would have seen it in theaters are *long dead* .
Bro shut up lmao
"Luke throwing the saber off the cliff was symbolic, he was Disney and the saber was Star Wars"
That wasn't Luke Skywalker, that was Jake Skywalker. Even Mark Hamill himself said so. lol
You, sir, win the internet.
Fascinating. I knew a little of this, but this video was such a great in-depth explanation and discussion about the Star Wars universe. Thanks!
To be honest, I'm not a fan of the Disney stuff, but I just ignore it and happily enjoy re-reading various legends books and comics. Would be nice if Disney would release all the unabridged legends books on audible tho
Along with Essential Legends Collection reprints, they've been recording a ton of new unabridged Legends audiobooks lately.
Sorry, mate. Midi-Chlorians are not the Force. They are merely a conduit.
If "midichlorians aren't the force" then why even bring them up? Especially when they weren't mentioned anywhere in the original films.
@@ActualLee42porque su función es explicar que personas son mas o menos sensibles a la fuerza, de esta se explica porque hay personas que tienen mayor capacidad para aprender a utilizarla que los demás.
@@ActualLee42 Because the more satellites you have in space, the better your satellite reception is going to be. Now take that statement and apply it to space mitochondria living in organic matter and the mystical energy field that surrounds said organic matter (The Force).
They're just receptors or conduits. The more you have the more naturally gifted you'll be (so it'll be easier to pick up, you'll have a higher potential, and you'll probably display latent Force powers like Luke, Leia, and Anikan with really high counts). The reason to bring it up in the Prequels is because unlike Luke and Leia where Obi Wan & Yoda already knew they were Force sensitive because of their father - George needed a plot reason for how Qui Gon could know for sure that Anikan was more gifted in the Force than Yoda. So he came up with Midichlorians as a way to do that without contradicting or retconing anything, that serves a double function of giving a reason as to why Luke is so absurdly powerful in the EU stuff (Midichlorian counts can often be genetic & his father is a genetic freak of the Force).
@@manuelsimoes1245funny, I don't recall ever hearing that mentioned in the actual movie.
@@jaernihiltheus7817"The more you have, the more naturally gifted you'll be"
So without midichlorians you can't use the force, ergo the force are midichlorians 😮
Thank you for such a well researched, thought provoking, and well presented video. I remember watching Bill Moyers interviewing Joseph Campbell on PBS decades ago, and he directly referenced Star Wars as our modern mythology and a prefect representation of the Heroes' Journey. I grew up with the original trilogy in theaters and that will always be Canon for me.
Now that is the kind of smart, nuanced take I'm here for. Thank you.
Dude I loved this video! It was well researched, insightful, and quite witty at times. That was a great analogy between the church and SW canon, had me chuckling. Keep it up!
Thanks for the support! Glad you enjoyed.
The consensus of the acceptability by the audience, measured by their migration in-to and out-of of fandom, is the definition of Canon. The original author only gets to plant the seeds. The audience can choose whether to water those seeds.
This is so interesting, great video!! One thing I’ll say that I’ll continue to watch Star Wars shows because it’s Star Wars, but there’s something about the George Lucas movies that leaves a lasting imprint on my mind.
It’s like a true space epic that feels so real in my mind. I mean I literally have a Star Wars quote ready in my head for such small moments in my life. It feels so real, Disney can’t recreate that. There’s a certain feel, pace that the 6 movies have that just can’t be duplicated.
5:20 The force is not Midichlorians. Midichlorians are just a conduit for living things to use the force.
Historically, creators, owners, and authors do not determine what is "canon." History does, society does. A general consensus of what is considered authentic, important, worthy. So, even George Lucas himself cannot be the end-all, be-all designator of what is canon. Neither, obviously, can Lucasfilm or Disney. Ultimately, we the public determine what meets the bar. Hindsight is 20/20, and I think history will pretty clearly indicate what is canon to Star Wars, and what isn't.
You are right. Illuminated right.
The only thing that all Star Wars fandom can see as Canon is George Lucas movies. No Rogue one, no heir to the empire, no clone wars, just the movies.
The longer the Disney x fandom Feud continues, the long will be the time to add something else.
if it happened on the screen, it's canon;
if you did not create it, you don't get a say.
My friends I respect the fight, but me and many others have retreated into the EU. I know others that immigrated to 40k, God bless their souls.
*Salutes. Single tear rolls down cheek*
Excellent work, mate. Well organized and well presented. 🎉
Very interesting video. And I think a mark of its quality is that so many of the comments have intelligent takes rather than just retreading the same old same old.
Original Trilogy Star Wars fan here. It makes me sad about the current state of canon after reading the books in the 90s and how Lucasfilm had a tight grip on what was canon back then. Writers weren't allowed to touch on clone wars or anything Anakin related (aka prequels). Mostly due to Lucas planning on going back to those stories at some point. Besides that it felt like there was a stringent approval process for what kind of content was allowed and if it fit in with what was established both in the movies and in other books. I believe Lucas himself had to sign off.
Although it was so strict it worked amazingly well. You didn't hear people saying whether they accepted a certain book as canon or not. They would merely just say whether they liked it. With that said, there was surprisingly a lot of open areas for writers to create something new. It was nice to see new additions and still be respectful to established content.
OT fan here too. The problem is not WHAT is canon, but rather WHEN. People seem to forget when George released the prequels many fan groups cried out at once and then were silenced as obi said. Until 1999 many fans did create in their heads and fan fiction of the clones wars. They didn't just dislike his directing, vfx, writing, acting, etc in the prequels but also the fact they existed at all. Obviously without social media and Lucas being careful what he made canon officially aka official novels etc. Without social media back then obviously this fan fiction and fan theories weren't as well as recorded as now where it's easy to upload to social media. But fans did despise when Lucas made the prequels because he limited what stories could be told. That's why the Old Republic is still so popular with fans and why the Disney sequels are now hated. When unlimited fan stories get wiped out by Lucas or Disney fans revolt. Especially when none of their theories and ideas are incorporated as they'd like.
What about reading the books in the 90's made you sad?
@@JeffreyAllanBackowski Good point. Edited. Thanks
You raise an interesting point that I missed in the video - how changing media plays a role in this whole story. Social media means there is much more public dialogue about Star Wars, and its canon. That's a huge part of the equation.
Lucas demarcating the EU as an alternate universe starting back in 1991 was ignored because EU fans could pretend to themselves it was canon until he wrote something.
Wookiepeedia catalogued all this EU content but also articulated how the EU couldn't fit with the true canon of Star Wars. EU fans pretended all of their canon was real but to varying degrees, contradictions smoothed over by faith in the EU.
After years of saying the EU wasn't ever in his movie universe, Lucas wrote in 1999 and proved it. EU fans felt evicted from their ownership of the universe and coped with a "God in the Gaps" theory of canon. If it's not contradicted, it must have happened.
This is absolutely not what Lucas ever agreed to.
The EU fans arguing their canon is being "erased" reveal that the fundamental issue is that they ignored that their canon never existed except to their fanbase. It was never Lucas Film's or Disney's responsibility to contradict George Lucas and integrate an alternate universe that never integrated with itself.
My only problem with the prequels is Jar Jar. Other than that, I really enjoyed the prequels when they were released, and each episode was progressively better.
I think the canon debate is a symptom. I think the root of the problem is prioritization. Since the acquisition, Disney elevated narrative complexity over depth, production quantity over quality, and new markets over the legacy audience.
I've heard multiple people say Star Wars is for kids, but I think that's just because it lacks complexity. The original trilogy is simple and linear, it includes elements of cuteness and frivolity, for children. But the deeper subtext for adults, analysts, and philosophers is an exploration of faith, growing up, fatherhood, and the search for meaning in mundane, elevating family and friendship over heroic feats and recognition. Meanwhile, new Star Wars emphasizes twisty plots, exploring new worlds, and diverse characters. These elements, while entertaining, are not for everyone.
The tv shows in particular have seen a decline in quality, like the modern CW. Easter eggs and familiar characters link the series to the canonical core (whichever one you follow), but as shadows of their former selves. Despite giving Asoka and Obi-Wan new adventures, they feel like facsimiles of their original roles because of the weaker internal continuity and cheaper production design. There are so many new product lines with loose ties to one another, rather than reinforcing the canonical network, each new entry dilutes and diminishes cohesion.
The debate on canon is a superficial lagging response to a decline in quality the legacy fans have come to expect. New audiences that haven't seen the original Star Wars and have no connections to it, may very well enjoy this new media, but they consume it like tik tok videos - quickly scan for dopamine hits, before moving on to the next shiny thing. Disney chose to compete with social media instead of the monomyth. That is the great schism. It's the difference between a lightsaber and a blaster. One is an elegant weapon requiring the force, skill and discipline to wield, while the other can be picked up by anyone without requirement who wants to feel a fleeting thrill of power.
11:53 technically true, but the 393 AD council of Hippo got its New Testament canon list from the already existing canon that the early church had.
Also, the Old Testament canon wasn't hard and fast for Christians, so Luther's ability to question it was valid since Hippo didnt address it. And even then he didnt take the non-canon material out, he only sent it to the back of contemporary Bibles.
Very well said. After spending a day sifting through SW Twitter all I can say is thank you so much for making this video.
I'm glad you enjoyed, thanks for stopping by the channel!
Appreciate a very logical and reasonable discussion of what canon even means. Not a lot of that going on, on reddit.
Disney may claim canon, but it isn't canon for me. Disney's Star Wars isn't actually Star Wars. Canon implies authority, and it needs believers in order to have any authority.
Disney has a bigger audience than anything from Star Wars since Revenge of the Sith and anything ever to come out of the EU.
The Ki Adi Mundi age argument is directly from a tabletop RPG almost no one played or even remembers existed.
George Lucas also said for decades that the EU was a marketing gimmick in an alternate universe. He never read or respected Heir to the Empire or Mara Jade. None of that was in his universe.
So this isn't a fight over whether fans get to keep the canon. It's fans who never had authority who hoped George Lucas would abandon it to them finally and found no one cared about their corner of the Star Wars franchise enough to ever bother canonizing it in the first place.
@@MrBazBake so what you're saying is this vid and chat is filled with a buncha bogus believers who think their basement dwelling neckbearded ideals of starwars is what matters most?
seems on point for sw fans
The Clone Wars, Rebels, Bad Batch, Mandalorian, and the Jedi games have been created (or finished) under Disney’s stewardship. I don’t love all of the company’s productions, but I believe they are doing a great job in diversifying and challenging the overarching universe.
Disney garbage isn’t canon nor Star Wars
@@TheEdog37 Agreed. The rot is far too deep now. Whatever glimmers of hope are now gone.
Very interesting thoughts, I really enjoy your videos!
A note though, I might suggest a bit more research into the biblical cannon. The early church father's writings (before the rise of the Roman Catholic church) actually do seem to show rather distinctly that the apocrypha, while given some respect as valuable writings, were not generally recognized as canon originally.
This is a fantastic reference video for those needing context for the current Disney SW backlash.
Thanks! It's a pretty deep rabbit hole - and I'm by NO means an expert. But I did hope to give the general lay of the land to make my argument. Thanks for watching!
Well done, well thought video 👌
Thanks for your kind comment :)
Star Wars in the prequel Era was many different aspects that reached different audiences through other entertainment mediums. Gaming back in the Prequel hype train was massive and each game in some way added to the Star Wars narrative of the time. Much of it was even approved by Lucas himself. This is even further supported by the cancelations that were made By Lucas before Lucas Arts was canned by Disney. Particularly that Darth Maul video game was cancelled and a possible sequel to Star Wars Republic Commando was also cancelled. Going back to the prequel Era renaissance of Star Wars in the gaming space, one of the biggest Star Wars games if not one of the most influential Role Playing Games Knights of the Old Republic greatly expanded the Star Wars Mythos in a way that a movie never could. That is just one example.
And Disney already said if the Acolyte fails, they're going to mess with the Old Republic next. So get ready for them to destroy the last remaining decent vestige of SW, because they're coming for that next! Waiting for them to turn Revan into a minority boss girl Rey 4.0 as she strikes against all the soy Sith who aren't really evil just misunderstood.
You know…if disney was smart, they would of kept everything cannon and make the sequels soo far in the future that it wouldn’t mess with it.
There’s G Cannon and D Cannon. After (D)isney’s many continuity errors, they can never be one and the same.
Regardless of the money they paid, if enough fans reject Disney it cannot be cannon. Yes, they purchased it. But they can't 'make' people accept it, no matter how much they scream and name call.
@@clarity2199 agreed the real cannon is the cannon that the majority accepts. Theres no way they can get the new fans to outnumber the og fans
The concept of canon is ridiculous anyway. Accept the stories you love, reject those you find objectionable. If Legends were still canon, I wouldn't pay any mind to the Yuuzhan Vong storyline or the battle of Jabiim since I dislike them so much. And even though it's the Disney era, to me Knights of the Old Republic 2 and Tartakovsky Grievous are just as canon as Andor, while Ahsoka, Book of Boba Fett, Kenobi and The Mandalorian (season 2 onwards) are not.
@@AthEE_One
Happy to find another fan who likes Tartakovsky's excellent work on the Clone Wars in 2003 (what I consider to be the true Clone Wars).
exactly what I do, reject the stories I find objectionable, hence all of Disney Star Wars + Dave Filoni creations are rejected by me (I call it not "real Star Wars"). The problem arises when Disney starts name calling me for rejecting it, saying that I am an ist and phobe :) (not me personally as I could not care less what Disney thinks but for the majority of the fanbase it is a big issue). Haven't seen a single show or film since TFA and Rogue One (which I actually like in parts) since the rot was obvious to me.
This is a great video, had a lot of fun listening to your points!
Thanks for saying so!
I’m getting really troubled by the habit of reanimating dead corpses with cgi to generate more profit even in cases where it’s obvious the actor wouldn’t have wanted it. To me it doesn’t demonstrate respect to the original artists to use their likeness without any ability for them to object but also a refusal to move on from the focus on nostalgia. Trying to recreate something in need of expansion.
This was a fantastic illustration of the problems with Disney canon vs. the canon.
Thanks for your kind words!
Hey great video, I really appreciated you analysis. Can I ask given you understanding of the mythology and the cultural/historical underpinnings of Star Wars, what are your thoughts on The Last Jedi?
Again great video.
Thanks for watching, and for your kind words. It's funny you mention Last Jedi because my original script for this video included more discussion about Luke's infamous light saber toss. I took it out for a few reasons. One: it's been analyzed to death. And two: it brought me a little too far off topic for this video. I'm thinking I might actually dedicate an entire video to talking JUST about that light saber toss, because for me, it is one of the most interesting and pivotal moments in the entire series. Like many people, I'm divided on how I feel about it. On the one hand, the image of Luke casually tossing excalibur aside is just wrong. On the other, what is the alternative? People blame Rian Johnson, but I would say the "blame" (if there is any) lies with JJ. He wrote Rian into a corner. Note that it's the only Star Wars film that ends in the MIDDLE of a scene. So Rian was unable to do the customary "time skip" between episodes to set up a new story (VERY important in a Star Wars film i would argue). He was BOUND to start his film in the middle of a dramatic scene, and this is a nightmare situation for any writer, especially having inherited a story with no plan. When you begin writing a story, you HAVE to start from a place of mystery, suspense, surprise. If Luke just took the light saber and said "wow this is so important and I'm fully on board with being a hero again", then there's nowhere for the story to go. There are many examples of this throughout Last Jedi, and the rest of the sequels. It all boils down to the challenge of trying to tell a story that - let's face it - ended very conclusively. I think there would good ideas in Ep 8 - the idea of Rey and Kylo teaming up, re-configuring the whole good vs. evil logic and pivoting the franchise in a new direction. But alas, I'm not sure that would have been any les divisive. Overall, I left Ep 8 feeling that they had missed some opportunities.
If I do make this future video about the Light Saber toss, I'm going to mention one really interesting thing that I haven't heard mentioned before - though I'm sure somebody has noticed this. Luke ALSO threw his light saber away in the OT. At the precise moment he tells the Emperor that he'll never turn to the dark side, he throws his light saber on the ground, and is never seen holding it again. So, wouldn't it be a contradiction for him to just accept it when Rey gives it to him? Haha, anyway - we'll see where that ideas goes.
@@theartofstorytelling1 I agree that TFA was a failed way to begin the trilogy. Having said that, TLJ completely discards or ignores all the mystery boxes, and even though those mystery boxes were not that interesting, that is part of why the trilogy feels so disjointed. For example, why doesn't Rey go find Maz [since they established she knows the Force in TFA, meaning Rey doesn't have to rely on Luke] who also knows the Force and knows everyone? They just explain her out of the story with a hologram. As Brandon Sanderson said, "subverting expectations" should actually be giving us something more exciting than what we expected, not just different. I think Rian was dead set on making Luke broken, and that would be fine if he wasn't so pathetic and the whole movie wasn't such drudgery. I also don't think the ending redeems him sufficiently enough to justify the movie. Overall, I'm left feeling Ben and Luke falling out was a more interesting story to explore than the trilogy we actually got. We know they left Luke out of TFA because they were worried he overshadowed the new cast (Arndt confirmed this) and I think that points to how dull the new characters are, or rather how they didn't utilise their potential. I feel like both Rey and Finn have watched the OT and are cosplaying in the galaxy like LAST ACTION HERO. JJ is fast forwarding through Luke's character arc with Rey like all that matters is levelling her up and collecting the talisman. Rian wanted his Rashomon reference, to make Kylo sympathetic and a romance/join me between them, and just forced Jake to fit into those boxes.
I think there was an option that wasn't used; The ending of TFA could actually have been a time jump when Rey leaves, or the journey could have been. They could have started with events that take place on the way, with Rey stopping off somewhere. Having Luke toss the saber away was obviously a meta 'f you' to fans and to establish the tory was going to twist, just like Luke's line in the trailers "this isn't going to go the way you think". It is understandable the character does that based on what happened to him, but the backstory feels really contrived to me, and we don't really establish why Luke allowed the relationship to become so toxic. Luke redeemed his father, so his father's saber would have meaning to him, even if it didn't to Jake Skywalker. Throwing down his saber in ROTJ is an act of defiance and triumph. Tossing it in TLJ is an act of petulance, cowardice and glib humor. I suppose some would argue "they rhyme" but I don't agree. I'd argue that *giving him* his father's saber actually rhymes with throwing down his own saber in ROTJ.
I don't think Rian understands the difference between fun and parody, or if he does he decided to add parody to Star Wars (just as he added flashbacks) and just as JJ decided to make R2 and 3PO sidelined cameos (big mistake). His movie is borderline parody at several points, where Lucas used slapstick mainly with droids and aliens. And recently he tried to gaslight on Vanity Fair that fans didn't like his movie because it has humor and 'Star Wars has always had humor like the ewoks' as if this was the true/only reason for backlash and criticism to TLJ. I think the idea that Rey is looking for guidance and for Luke to reject her is actually a good one, but he could have just handed it back to her. And he could have refused to train her without telling her to "go away". Even being a cranky old hermit could have been done better without making him look goofy. I think it's entirely undone in a narrative that Rey's "failures" aren't really significant to her and she repeatedly rescues herself and everyone at the end. Although things don't go to plan when she leaves Luke, they actually go better in terms of outcome than we could reasonably expect.
I think you nailed it. I like to think nailing it leads to your salvation.
It is all about the hero's journey.
We all nailed it.
Why is the argument always the same, we say you're breaking Cannon and the response is always your saying Star Wars isn't Star Wars enough.
That is not what we said at all!
We said they are breaking the preexisting story line, the things which made the franchise unique.
Disney owns the copyright but they don’t own Star Wars.
'buying Lucasfilm is not the same as buying Lucas'
No he DID buy Lucas, in the form of story treatments for episodes 7-9. Had they adhered to them, or adapted them, it would STILL be George Lucas Star Wars, even if George himself was not at the helm, but they chose to throw it away.
Great examples for both sides are Star Wars theory and generational tech
We need a fan cannon.
Isn't that was Legends was?
Personally, instead of me wasting time on Disney, I watch the fanfiction vids made by the fans. They're the best things to see SW right now, because the fans actually care about SW.
fannon
Grand Moff Tarkin: I love my Star Wars Cannon, Lord Vader. I love the sensor readings of Alderaan disintegrating in the morning. It smells like VICTORY.
Vader: Olfactory stimuli do not travel in space.
Tarkin: In the name of the Dark Side... Sheesh.
If this channel were as popular as it should be, I would expect a lot more...interesting...takes in the comment section, since religion and historical authenticity were brought up.
As it is, it's quiet and nice down here.
Haha, one of the perks of being a small channel?
5:29
Super sorry to insert but this is incorrect
The Force isn’t Midi-chlorians, the midi-chlorians allows beings to interact WITH the Force. In most cases those with higher levels are just able to manipulate the energy around them and essentially create a frequency they can control and operate on that others just can’t, unless they train very very hard
Everybody is has midi-chlorians in them but not everyone understands or wields the Force in the same way
And if you think about it, if you apply the midi-chlorians to the story/plot, they didn’t really do much to detract from the heroes doing their thing and learning more about themselves thru the Force. That’s all on the audience if they concluded “oh anakin only won the pod race because his count was high”. More times than not the heroes still find hardship despite being “gifted” or blessed with talent. Luke certainly had his go of it, lost his hand and even the end still had to get saved by his dad.
So at least in my opinion, there’s still mysticism in the Force, the midi-chlorians just ground things a little bit with a small bit of science fiction.
Which if you think about Star Wars is a Sci-fi Space Drama of sorts
I do really appreciate this video and your insights into the actual plot and function of the franchise as whole in society
Would love to see your take on something like Dragon Ball or other really big IPs!
five minutes in and you have a new subscriber. You managed to link two of my favorite topics together and that is the canon of Star Wars and the Canon of Holy Writ as I have a profound interest in both!
Thanks for the sub!
It’s ironic. Disney acts like Star Wars is their IP, despite the fact their canon does not fit into the lore George Lucas created. Legends/Expanded Universe was 100% George Lucas approved. This also included movie novels, deleted scenes, video games, and the second Hexalogy of Thrawn Triology and Heir to the Empire. I never read the actual books, but I remember watching audio reenactments as a kid on UA-cam. I also played a lot of the classic Star Wars EU games like Jedi Academy, TFU, and ROTS video game. To me Star Wars was a beautiful work of art hand crafted through years of blood, sweat, and tears. George Lucas didn’t make Star Wars what it was by himself. He had a whole team to help him write down and bring his world to life. And the cherry on top, John Williams wonderful music. Star Wars died after TFA. I was willing to give Disney a chance, but after the atrocious way they treated our beloved legacy characters, I can never go back to them. I was even willing to go back after Mando S1 ending, but once again Disney chose to keep Mando part of their Sequel universe and that ticked me off. We saw Luke Skywalker as a Jedi again only to know the dark path he’d be forced to go on. I’m done with Star Wars but I will gladly make my own story. I’m gonna start my own series now for the heck of it.
It would be best if we all created our own stories now. Remember - George only created Star Wars because he couldn't adapt John Carter of Mars or Flash Gordon, but still took heavy inspiration from them.
"Bob Iger got a raw deal because he didn't get Lucas' brain" That one is firmly on Iger because when Lucas sold, he wanted to retain creative control, or at least have creative input. Lucas assumed the sequel trilogy would be made following his outlines. But Iger decided that, instead of harnessing Lucas' creativity and mitigating Lucas' worst tendencies with some well-chosen collaborators, he would take the "safe" (i.e. boring) route, cut Lucas out of the equation and essentially remake the original trilogy. Because Iger was spooked by the prequel backlash, he threw the baby out with the bath and it probably cost Disney literally billions of dollars.
I have no doubt that whatever Lucas had in mind would have been as controversial as the prequels were in their day, and would have required some top-tier screen writing to warm the audience up to them, as well as someone with the authority and balls to go toe-to-toe with Lucas on some of his more questionable ideas, the way that Gary Kurtz did for the first two. Lucas seems to do his best work when he's got a little creative tension going on. But it would have been worth it to have Lucas' incredible imagination on full display, something that has been sorely lacking in every single Disney Star Wars production to date, even the few good ones.
Yes, you are right. I agree with you. 100% George Lucas is the author and the one who imagined and created Star Wars with its own unique nature. The problem with Disney’s “reinvention” of Lucas’s Star Wars is that it is of a completely different nature, and for the most part shares only the name Lucas created. This reinvention with very little of original music to set the atmosphere and spirit that tells us this is a Lucas Star Wars. Disney also completely changes the beat here with music that doesn’t evoke any similarity or feeling of the original under Lucas. It is bereft of the spirit of its original author or storyline and it uses literal tangible things originally created by Lucas like light sabers, unique droids, also created by Lucas and many other visuals. So not even light sabers, droids or the many other things Lucas created for these films were originated by Disney, and all Disney’s offerings presented to the devotees of Star Wars since 1977’s “A New Hope” is them going completely off the script with Star Wars spirit and universal canon inconsistent with the spirit and storyline of authentic Star Wars.
Disney has bought nothing from Lucas for their $4 billion.
Disney acquiring so-called rights to Star Wars is nothing but, as we have seen in the Acolyte a witches cauldron to brew their woke propaganda agenda, an unholy menacing concoction, a formula for chaos. They have certainly put disorder and chaos into Star Wars fans by Ripping apart the fabric of Star Wars as unrecognizable, incoherent, lacking clarity, and intelligibility, A SH•T SHOW!
Star Wars 7,8,and 9. And now this complete bomb called, The Acolyte. That being said the best part of season one so far is episode 5’s big fight scene was one of the best I’ve seen, but that’s it. I can’t think the storyline is going to get any better with the fools that are writing this story, I’d fire them get somebody with some unbiased talent. So it gets a big 👎.
The Darth Bane trilogy is the best story ever told and if Disney wants a well received story they should gey Drew Karpyshyn to write something for them
I'm an OT purist, meaning I only consider the OT canon. I don't consider George's PT or whatever Disney has done over the past decade or so to be part of the same continuity. Some may say, "Well, George made it" or "Well, Disney owns it." I don't care. 1977-1983 is what Star Wars is to me (with maybe a small exception made for Timothy Zahn's old Thrawn books).
Personally, I've had my own gripes with Disney Star Wars over the years. But, I've had way bigger gripes with the fandom. The fandom itself doesn't understand Star Wars as much as they think they do. The fans always have an irrational emotional response to everything instead of a logical one. I see people shit all over Disney for flaws that have existed in Star Wars for decades before Disney ever came into the picture. People over-romanticize the pre-Disney days and either choose to have selective memory of the franchise's past flaws or they are simply too young to have been there at the time. Star Wars has ALWAYS been an aggravating thing to be a fan of. The canon and the lore always had massive shifts each decade. Star Wars lore was one thing before the prequels and then it changed completely after the prequels. Then it changed again after the Clone Wars show. The beloved "EU" and it's canonicity was always in a state of pending and was never set in stone canon. But, I see so many people arguing to death that it was indeed 100 percent canon, which is just completely incorrect. The outrage and the crying is silly by this point and it hard to take seriously anymore. This franchise truly did peak between 1977 to 1999. Once that first big lore shift happened with The Phantom Menace, the franchise just hasn't been the same. It's been constant nonstop complaining no matter if it's George Lucas, Dave Filoni, or whoever at Disney making these things.
Maybe, but we've gone way passed nitpicks, now. And this isn't only about Star Wars, either. Every franchise Disney has touched has turned to crap. We're talking Marvel, Indiana Jones, Willow, Toy Story, hell even Dr. Who (given, it was already going down, but they made sure to do their 'hold my beer' moment with it). If any of those franchises is to ever have a stones chance of being good again, Disney must be starved out to the point they go out of business and sold off into pieces, then hope and pray the next owners will learn from this and do better.
Who really owns Star Wars? There are two answers to that question and both of those answers are equally correct. The first answer is that George Lucas owns Star Wars because he is the creator of Star Wars. The second answer is that Star Wars fans (including myself) own Star Wars. As far as I am concerned, George Lucas and us fans get to decide what is canon and I say that only the first six Star Wars films are canon.
If saying would only make it so. Here is the objective truth: Disney owns Star Wars. George will always be the creator, but, he sold it to them; and us fans: we never owned it.
Your account of how the Protestant Reformation came about isn't really bang on, but other than that wonderful video :)
Great video as always! In A New Hope the computer could not hit the target that would destroy the Death Star many times over, but the Force could. We see the Force exert Its will through Luke, not the other way around, rendering technology's pretentiousness insignificant when confronted with the power of the spititual. My point seems random, I know, but what I'm trying to get at is that Disney thinks Star Wars is just aesthetics; that's why - in my opinion - the sequel trilogy looks Star-Warsy, but feels like a parody. The themes, the symbolism, the elements that make Star Wars the wonderful modern myth you perfectly made the case for are lost. Keep up the great work!
Wdym they are lost? Wasn't last Jedi a deconstruction of the myth of star wars? ROS was a retcon of that deconstruction or I guess a haphazard made re-construction. The Disney + shows range from furthering the myth, to expanding the myth, to adding a twist to the myth, etc. Disney seems to testing the waters for which element of star wars is THE ELEMENT. Each show is a test poking or pulling star wars in a specific direction to see if that direction reveals the atom or building block. And so far I think all they found is star wars IS STAR WARS when it's an indepth enhancement of George's pre-existing work with the 3-d clone wars animated show. Star wars can't grow past it's past. Like slave Leia or slave Anakin it's chained only unlike Anakin and Leia it can't escape it's captor, nostalgia. Star wars is a FEELING like the force. It's the almost spiritual first time a child sees and is wow'd by ep 1-6 of the films. It's a high that star wars fans aka junkies need a fixing for but nothing hits like that first hit anymore and the more hits disney offers the more the high becomes forever elusive
@@Thed538dhskDisney's best Star Wars work (that I've seen) is Andor and the Visions anthologies. They are high quality and are close conceptually to Lucas' work while taking the franchise into new creative territory.
The old republic was that change, but disney won't even touch it because they didn't create it, so they want nothing to do with it. Disney simply doesn't understand Star Wars enough to change it for the better. It's not that we don't want change, it's simply just been that all the change has been bad.@TheDCbiz
@@mattd5240 all the change has been bad? So everything since 1983 except exclusively fan related projects have been bad in your opinion? Lucas made changes and got pushback too so it's not exclusive to Disney, it's just repeating
@@Thed538dhsk Where in anything I wrote suggested that? While I haven't agreed with every decision George Lucas has made, none of them have been nearly as bad as the combined missteps that disney has made.
If by "our culture" you mean right-wing chuds online who ragebait over "woke ideology" and nitpick everything to claim "bad writing" has only just happened post-acquisition (as if the prequels are masterfully written), then sure, "our culture" is losing interest in Star Wars.
But if you're trying to claim that the majority of everyday people as well as the most dedicated of nerds no longer enjoy this franchise, then I have to significantly disagree with you, there. The hardcore fans who are actually fans and aren't just the toxic corners of the fandom are still very much in love with this franchise. And the casual fans haven't noticed a difference and still go to the movies and watch the shows whenever they find the time. This "battle" is only real if you accept the exclusively online narrative at face value.
Veteran nerds of any franchise like this know what the deal is from the beginning: there are often multiple continuities in these fictional worlds. Marvel and DC have multiple Earths. Star Trek has alpha and beta canon, and within those, two major timelines of alternative events. And beyond that, we Trekkers have always known that the books, comics, and games are considered apocryphal unless the movies and shows decide to bring elements from them into the on-screen canon for creative reasons. Halo has gold and silver canon. Dungeons and Dragons has multiple campaign worlds with all their own lore, characters, and events, plus an alternative dimension that connects them all together. And on it goes.
To pretend like Star Wars is somehow the only mythology that has some special right to never have more than one continuity of stories is honestly pretty silly. None of us fans of other mythologies have ever felt like we had the right to dictate how the creatives involved in the fictional worlds we loved chose to thrill us. We just enjoyed being thrilled. When I read a Trek comic, I don't sit around and bellyache about how the story I'm reading "didn't really happen" and therefore isn't being given the proper "respect." I only care about if I like the story or not. Frankly, I love that I can experience an infinite number of stories that take place in this universe, across as many continuities as the authors want to write. It keeps things fresh and allows true artists to never be limited about what stories they want to tell.
"Legends" in Star Wars was never canon. When Lucas was in charge, he went on record more than once stating that he didn't regard the Expanded Universe (as it was called then) as part of his canon. But he still let people write stories in that separate continuity because he knew he could sell more books and merch that way. And sometimes, when he wanted to take elements from the EU, like Coruscant, he did so. But he never felt like he had to adhere to it, and he contracted it several times (e.g. when he wrote Boba Fett as a clone rather than being an alias of Jaster Mereel).
So, to pretend now as if Disney hiring people to now add more to the canon timeline is somehow rendering the Legends stories as less important or outright retconning something is frankly just revisionist. I'm a veteran fan of Star Wars from the beginning, and I always knew the EU and the films were not happening in the same continuity. It didn't bother me then, and it doesn't bother me now. There's plenty of room for both. The Legends books are being given the premium re-release treatment constantly under Disney's ownership. If they really wanted to "erase" that stuff like people claim, they wouldn't invest the time and money in these premium packages for those stories to find new life. But they have.
There is no conspiracy to erase old Star Wars.
There is one conspiracy though: the executives at Disney *want* right wing loons pissed off so that Trump gets reelected and gives the executives exactly what they want: huge tax cuts!
You think Dave Filoni is responsible for creating this whole changing the Canon for Star Wars?
There used to be a term called "Lucas canon" for a reason. It was considered canon until Lucas stated otherwise or until Lucas directed a movie that stated otherwise.
TCW did retcon an insane amount of shit, but yeah he didn't start it
Yes.
Bro is a hack.
Yes
It’s Dave filoni canon
Now
Great video.
In order for religious canonization events to happen in history, one needs either spiritual authority that is recognized by the overwhelming majority of the community so they voluntarily go along with your decrees, secular authority that allows one to physical enforce a decision (destroying rejected books and killing dissenters), or a combination of both.
With regards to works of entertainment, the closest equivalent you have to spiritual authority is intellectual authority. People who understand the material enough to add to it in a way that is consistent with the original vision, without destroying or damaging what is already there.
Disney and Amazon lack that intellectual authority which is why the community rejects their works as being noncanon.
The original authors of works( Lucas and Tolkien) do meet that intellectual qualification; which is why their additions are accepted.
In regards to spiritual authority and Scripture, new canonical works would be recognized as consistent and true with existing canon by the community because God is the source for them all and God does not change.
People, however, do change. Lucas and Tolkien changed their ideas over time. But they respected and understood their own material well enough to be able to make changes in a way that generally was consistent with itself and improved the story rather than damaged it.
In the absence of the original creator serving as a closely involved overseer, no one should ever try to add onto a mythological entertainment franchise like that without employing experts on staff who have veto power over proposed stories.
Amazon, ironically, did hire someone like that at the start, but then promptly fired them because they didn’t actually care about the lore and did not want to listen to anything they had to say about why their story was wrong.
Disney might have the secular authority to control who can tell new star wars stories, thereby to some extent forcing their message and silencing alternative voices - but they cannot erase the past works that have already been created and force the existing fans to accept their new drek as legitimate. So Disney lacks the necessary authority to force their new message to become canon. They still require the agreement of the people to go along with it. They can’t order all past copies of star wars destroyed and burn fans at the stake who express disagreement with new Disney products (although they certainly try to do so figuratively by attacking the fans in the media as being a litany of “ists and isms” for not consuming the shit disney is shoveling out).
Shows like Rogue One or early Mandalorian only have the possibility of being accepted as canon by the fans because they passed the intellectual test of lore consistency and understanding the original vision of star wars. This is only achieved because they are one of the few Disney productions where a legitimate knowledgable fan who cared about star wars was given the reigns over the production. And even mando went off the rails and was rejected by fans when Disney started mandating changes, taking creative control away from the one who birthed the vision for it.
Almost all other Disney products are produced by people who don’t care about star wars, know nothing about it, and actively despise anyone who does. Lucasfilm figures have admitted on more than one occasion that they specifically look to put people in positions of power because they know nothing about star wars. They want people who will push “the message”, because knowledgable fans will push back against corporate dictates if it would destroy the lore of star wars. They want people who don’t care about the lore so they will do whatever they are told.
The reason the clone wars TV series is not canon is because it is too lore breaking. And the reason it is, is because Lucas was not directly involved enough and Dave admitted that he went against what Lucas wanted on more than one occasion. That is why anything Dave has tried to produce afterwards, like Ashoka, is shit and rejected as noncanon by the fans. He caves in to the current lucasfilm agenda and doesn’t understand or care as much about the existing lore as he does about telling whatever new story he wants.
i personally only consider the george lucas star wars mythology to be legitimate. while yes disney may own the star wars IP they do not control the publics view of the mythology. similar to frank herberts Dune books and the additions that his son made to them.
The sad part is Disney ruined SW the only way to make SW great again is probably if someone or group can come up with enough money to buy it away from Disney.
Canon is something tiered. George has the best claim, Disney have their version, but it is up to each one to define what is believable and what is not.
The Force is not the Midiclorians, they're just the conduit for it! It explains why all living things in the galaxy have a connection to the Force, while those from outside the galaxy do not.
Nothing was retconned, the Force is still just as magical/spiritual as it always was.
Ok, but what you seem to be missing is that the extent to which a story is "mythical and symbolical" is precisely the extent to which its "canon" doesn't matter, which is the whole point of analyzing a story as "archetype" in the first place. It's no coincidence that King Arthur has no "canon" worth disputing, while the Bible is a "religion" to exactly the extent that one thinks it has a "canon" at all. To bemoan Star Wars for it's lack of "canon" while also detailing its status as "myth" is to miss the point of your own argument. The "authorship" as "canon" that you refer to has more to do with how we declare a story as something a person can own, and thus have exclusive control over. But that just an expression of our own capitalist peculiarity.
I have to say this is a very good criticism of my argument. To the degree that Star Wars is mythological, it is to that same extent NOT canonical. Myths are re-tellings of re-tellings, and the mutate and evolve with each telling - the exact opposite of canon. So there is a contradiction there. Thanks for watching!
@@theartofstorytelling1 Thank you for the thought and effort you put into this. I enjoyed it, and it got me thinking.
Buying a franchise cannot buy the hearts of the viewer....it is something they must earn. Disney basically purchased Star Wars, then threw a pile of shit on a plate and told us 'This is Star Wars, eat it'. They can't 'make' the fans accept it, no matter how much they paid for it. Ultimately, in the end it's the choice of the viewer. And if enough fans refuse to accept it, no money in the world can make us believe otherwise.
I think this is one of the most interesting things about canon; it only exists inside the minds of people. It's a shared consensus, and in NO world will everyone agree on everything. I suppose in that sense it's like anything else in the world - the value of money, the legitimacy of laws or governments.
I think Disney should adopt a modified version of the old Lucasfilm canon system that will allow them the flexibility to write new material with some ability to adjust for feedback from the fandom. Not a veto system, more like a notice and comment rulemaking American government agencies use. (Make your comment and maybe we'll adjust if need be) Something that give the fans a sense that they aren't being dictated to by interlopers whose sole claim is legal ownership while protecting that ownership.
Also, 12:57, you're using Immaculate Conception wrong. Conception requires a mother and father, which is why it isn't used to describe Jesus' incarnation. Yes, I will die on this hill.
midichlorians is just a plot tool to confirm in the viewers eyes that Anakin is in fact the chosen one. it doesn’t really diminish the spiritual aspect of the force, and the enlightenment a force wielder needs to attain. knowing path and walking it are different things. but people got that concept in the most flat way possible. that is not to say that Episode 1 is not boring and childish, but character and world building wise its ahead of everything Lucas did in the entire OT!
12:58 There is no Year 0 in the Gregorian Calendar.
I get what you're coming from with Canon. But I think it matters too with the continuity of Star wars and their character arcs of each character each and every new series from Star wars like Obi-Wan the acolyte and even the secret trilogy seems to break the timeline of Star wars the things that didn't happen such as Obi-Wan and Darth Vader fighting again even though the last time they fought was during revenge of the sith. A character being born in a time period before he was born. Or The witches conceiving a baby when Anakin was supposed to be the baby born from the force.
Shows like Cobra Kai don't really have any issues like this if they follow the stories through the characters since the first film and even their worst film and they still made it work and have new characters that people can see and enjoy. Would you even argue that Star wars writing quality has not been the same since then?
This agree with, and is the best defence that the integrity of canon is important. If we grant that the Star Wars canon is meant to stand as a single unified story, than any intervention in an existing narrative changes the logic of related events. So your example of Obiwan facing Anakin between Ep3 and Ep4 is a good example. In some sense, it changes the meaning of Obiwan's duel in Ep4. I think it's possible to still watch that scene and put any other media out of mind and enjoy it for what it originally was. But the point still stands. In my opinion, one of the most egregious blunders is "undoing" Anakin's sacrifice by having the First Order simply rise out of the Empire, and having Palpatine "somehow" return. So yes, to your point, that is lazy writing. On the other hand, I think we have to recognize that NO writer in that situation could write Eps 7-9 without, in SOME way, undoing the neat little bow that Ep 6 ended on. Unless they just skipped ahead a century and didn't bring back any old characters (which clearly was not an option for Disney).
I think if a story is handed off to someone different from the original creator. It's more of a responsibility to maintain some form of consistency With the original works. Disney and the ones in charge of the franchise wanted to recreate the franchise in their own image..
This is where the discourse comes in. People didn't mind the extended universe even if they don't quite get everything right. Because it's separated from the canon of the original 6 movies.
Disney Star Wars is basically telling you everything they do is canonical. Suddenly the standards expected from fans shoot up dramatically. Because every show, movie, game from this point is as important as the main movies.
Personally I don't think what we've been given over the years from Disney had followed through on that point of consitency. It feels like something completely different now with each new show it just veers further off.
Yo fuck Star Wars, Lucas shoulda never sold it to Disney but I don’t blame him, lotta cash changed hands.
Nicely done!
Picking up on the closing, the Author/Prophet, inconveniently, didn't have Apostles, or at least none that have appealed to the faithful. Nor is there a series of Great Tomes, like Tolkien. Nor is he dead. So we have this weird late-stage Recession of the Prophet where no one can renew his achievements, and the successor owner is a vast byzantine bureaucracy will no heart and no vision. [Leaving aside the current display of storytelling incompetence].
I'm often stunned at what a poor dealmaker Iger is. If you're buying IP/brand, the sensible move is to lock up the creator on your payroll for X period, like 7 years, as part of the workout and non-compete arrangement. You don't want fans looking at the new stuff and thinking "err, dunno about this, what does George make of it? Would George approve?"
And I've been tracking the Hulu deal's endgame. What a mess. Iger has sold open-ended financial risk to his Board and investors three times. Slow learners.
My impression was that Iger was scared of the prequel backlash, and the lingering sense that Lucas had somehow destroyed Star Wars. Feels like maybe a huge overcorrection, looking back. Because you're right - the smart thing to do would be to retain Lucas to some degree, and keep his name attached for legitimacy.
I agree with pretty much everything, but I don't think enough weight was given to how "lore breaking" arguments can be used to decanonize a work, especially if how it's seems to be the primary argument for something being made canon or left out of a canon for IPs we love (and in the history of religious texts).
You are right that ultimately it boils down to consensus, but rational arguments can be made that are more or less convincing. Had Luther's gripe with the Catholic Church been purely political, it might not have been as widely accepted.
Take the Gospel of Judas for example. Aside from the facts that it was written a few hundred years after the other Gospels and was not as widely spread throughout the world (we only have one ancient copy compared to the thousands of copies of the Gospels), the Gospel of Judas paints an extremely different Jesus with a very different philosophy and theology presented.
Even if it were as wide spread as the other Gospels the mere content contradiction gives strong evidence that it is part of a different canon, even if it had the same authors as the other Gospels
Mitichlorians are not the force.
I think Disney and Rian Johnson *did* understand the mythological foundations of a Star Wars story, they just deliberately rebuked them. Luke throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder was a direct acknowledgement and refutation of the hero's journey and traditional storytelling. Unfortunately it was handled with all the finesse of a 15 year old amateur novelist that just discovered what cliches are thinks everything he writes has to be hyper original or deconstructive now.
midichlorians doesnt fucking contradict or demystify the Force FFS
Someone was born after 1999.
The dumbest thing LucasFilm ever did was pretend the EU was on the same level as the films. Short-term, it allowed hard-core fans to get really invested in something a tiny percentage of fans would bother with. Long-term, it was always going to be sacrificed the moment it proved inconvenient. You were the girl in the car in Death Proof that got asked by Atuntman Mike if you were going left or right. It just took you a lot longer to start getting scared.
Lucas had no problem ditching stuff when the prequels were developed and had he made his sequel trilogy, he would have wiped all the post-RotJ canon, too... because it never really mattered. He's been wiping stuff from Continuity since 1978 when he completely ignored a Holiday Special and a sequel novel.
For me George could change whatever he chooses in the story, because he created it, anything and everything comming from him has to be cannon😅. Disney SW is not Star Wars at least for me
To me, something like Star Wars is whatever George Lucas says it is. He created the characters, the universe, all of it, in the same way that George RR Martin created Game of Thrones and gets to say, confirm, or deny whatever he wants about any of it, because it's his.
In TV and movies, the owners of franchises tend to be corporations that only tell stories as a means to profit. They don't care about being consistent and they have no respect for the property. We have seen this countless times with sequels that exist solely because the original movie did well, and the end up retconning things just to make the sequel possible or they completely destroy a character's personality or arc for the sake of having a second movie make sense. They don't care. They just want to print more money. The people who write this drek are mercenaries that live in Los Angeles who write and make up whatever they're told to, and they have no problem destroying established lore or killing off characters if the studios demands it, as it often does because it would rather kill off a popular character than pay their increasing salary for making yet another movie.
All of it is soulless, corporate greed. Sometimes they manage to make something good. Often, they don't. And I think it's totally fine for a member of the audience to pick and choose which movies they want to accept as canon because the reality is canon means NOTHING to corporations because they're willing to invalidate previously established facts, retcon events, and do whatever else they want if they think it'll make them more money. With that complete lack of integrity toward the franchise, and the fact every movie is written by different teams of people and directed by different teams of people, etc, all hired for that one specific task like mercenaries and then leave it behind until they are approached to negotiate a more profitable contract for themselves to make additional movies, it shows a very clear and obvious distinction between someone who OWNS the characters and story vs someone who CARES about the characters and story. They are not the same. Ergo, nonsensical canon as dictated by a corporation doesn't really make any sense to follow or adhere to unless you happen to also like it, because it can completely change and flip on its head at their whim, so it is meaningless anyway.
However, people who are creatives first and actually make their own art for the sake of loving story telling produce the only real and true canon that deserves respect and consideration. The single authors that write stories like Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, Star Wars, are the ones that actually care about that world and its characters and understand them better than some room full of suits ever will, as well as understanding them better than some mercenary for hire writer that takes other people's work and warps it to fit the studio's demands. Regardless of what you may think about the individual who is the author, they are still the creators and sole arbiters over truth and reality in their respective realms that they created. Even if they sell the rights to someone else to make a movie or a tv series or whatever else using their work, it's only as canon or non-canon as they deem it to be.
To compare it to art... It would be like BUYING a classical painting by Da Vinci or some other classical master of their craft, then modifying the image yourself, then claiming the new image as your own work and expecting everyone to just go along with it and like the changes you made to it. I mean, you have the legal right to do it, since you own the painting, but no one is going to respect that, and anyone that actually cared about the original will curse you forever for changing it and essentially destroying it by doing so. Having the legal right to produce or modify something does not give you integrity or legitimacy for doing so. Another good example is Winnie the Pooh. The moment the copyright protection for Winnie the Pooh expired, a low budget shock horror movie was made based on it just to try to capitalize on the sensationalism of it all to turn a quick profit. They had the legal right to do so, but should any of that slop be part of the Winnie the Pooh canon? We all know the answer there.
Disney can buy Marvel, they can buy Star Wars, they can buy 20th century Fox, they can buy whatever other companies they want, and they can make movies or tv shows or whatever other nonsense they desire for a quick buck, but they can't buy the legitimacy and acceptance of the fans.
Why can we not have a single closed cannon, wherein everything outside is potentially accurate or inaccurate depending on how it lines up with The Cannon.
1-6 are the canon. Everything outside of that, whether masterpieces like Rogue One or pieces of trash like The Last Jedi, they are somewhat valid or invalid depending on how well they line up with the cannon.
I was hoping this video was going somewhere good but man you dropped the ball at 5:20
If you aren't even able to listen to what Qui Gon actually says and then i see no point in listening to you either.
If Twilight isn’t Vampire Canon niether is Disney Star Wars.
There is no universal vampire canon. There is only what exists in a story.
The canon storyline ends with Return of the Jedi
End of story
(I'd believe you if you told me this was a parody of star wars) It really feels like this show is a side effect of this horrible trend that we keep seeing over & over. It's people getting positions, who seem to in no way DESERVE those positions. It doesn't seem like they hired them based off of talent or skill..? A show this expensive, with this famous of a subject, should Not have this bad of writing. The world design, the set design, the aesthetics, the overall look & feel of it's visuals as a whole come off pretty cheap. It's all so surface level & tacky. On top of everything people have already said, I also think the camera work in this is awful. This show genuinely feels like kids who are role playing as adults in order to direct this..
It really feels like it's deliberately going against everything that is Star Wars. It feels deliberately disrespectful to the lore and has no respect to the source material. Are they deathly allergic to having male characters? Are they allergic to quality storytelling, world building, character development.. This is awful! It really seems like whoever is making these doesn't realize Star Wars used to be a really well made world full of diversity. It didn't matter what kind of character, creature, species you were, they found great ways to convey artistic depictions of the Human condition. Creative ways that connect us all on a deeper level.
Things used to take pride in finding creative ways to convey things. To give the audience feelings without overly explaining it. I really miss that. If you go back and watch "X-Men the animated series" It is so well crafted. The story of mutants was so universally relatable. Media back then found ways to abstractly teach me life lessons, touched on difficult situations, found intelligent ways to tell stories. Even when I watched it all grown up it really felt like the story is so well crafted and executed that anyone is able to relate to it in someway or another. It's stuff like that that we are so deeply lacking nowadays. So much so that literal kid's cartoons from the 90's told deeper and more mature stories than most media nowadays.
Its pretty straightforward: what Disney has done w/ Star Wars is the same as if the Mormons got the publishing rights to the Bible and then informed all Catholics they had accept the Book of Mormon as Scripture.
Insert lyric from the musical here.
The Templin institutes First Order - New Republic war timeline is my only true canon
Yeah but Star Wars was written about Anakin Skywalker's awakening, rise and fall from slave boy, to Heroic Knight, to evil villain and finally his rise as a Force Ghost.
It was actually luke, anakin is just backstory
Legends is canon. What disney did was keep starwars alive and away from china by beating starwars till it went into a coma. It just needs a revive. (new ownership)
the only reason it appears to be an issue of authorship is because george lucas as been shifted from a focus of fan ire to fan worship. certain kinds of “fans” will always find reasons to hate new star wars, whether lucas is at the helm or is a deified figure representing an imagined golden age. now that lucas is gone, it’s easy to spin a narrative that some gargantuan, nebulous entity named disney is solely at fault for making lackluster stories - when the beloved old EU produced just about as many stinkers as this new era is. many people’s foundational idea of star wars and canon has always involved ideas that didn’t come from lucas, many of which he straight up ignored or disliked, though he cherrypicked ideas and character he liked as well. we’d be having this same conversation if lucas steamrolled the old legends canon to make his own sequels. the old EU was groaning under its weight and size after 35 years of material; some big reboot of some kind was probably inevitable.
when the biggest fan complains over “canon” materialize into death threats over ki-adi mundi’s birthday, we know it’s not actually about canon any more. the most angry and outspoken “fans” now simply want star wars to be a battleground for the culture war. grifters have turned many fans’ love of the franchise into rage against disney, so many will despise disney content even if it’s good or does exactly what they want it to do. star wars has always existed in some shape or form outside of george lucas, and people have always made up their minds about what star wars they do or don’t accept. the fan outrage today rivals that of the prequels, and much of it is boosted by the fact that hatred is perpetuated by dishonest creators to make gobs of many from outrage clicks.
despite your video’s high production quality, i don’t think you said a single interesting thing. i’m not sure what you’re proposing here - that the fans angry with disney ignore its canon and focus on the old EU? sure, plenty already do. but eventually lucas is going to kick the bucket; eventually, we will have a star wars with no george lucas no matter what timeline we’re in, and ever since 1977 we’ve had star wars stories written without him. so what should we do? just stop making more star wars? lame.
I'm not really "proposing" anything with this video. My point was mainly to point out that the discussion is important. I brought in the historical example to show that debates over canonical stories have always been around. The fact that this one is about Star Wars is not really important. I could have chosen any other fictional universe for this video. I mainly wanted to point out that the debate ITSELF is worth paying attention to, and says something about the importance of stories generally. Thanks for watching and I hope I didn't waste your time!
@@theartofstorytelling1 I see your point of view. As someone who has been on the pulse of Star Wars "debates" or "controversies" for a while now, it just feels like the ideas covered in this video are pretty well-worn and don't really address the current chaotic state of the fandom. I'll reiterate that most of the people who are most vocal about valiantly defending "George's canon" are mostly using it as ammunition to hate or delegitimize the current fans. It seems to me and many others that the source of intense Star Wars debate has less to do with the fluctuating quality of projects and more with disingenuous grifters inciting outrage over increasingly meaningless "infractions" against George and "canon"; less than 48 hours ago, people on Twitter got death threats over Ki-Adi Mundi's age. It's crazy times.
Not that I think you're one of those people. I just think your takes are a bit lukewarm and don't address any current or serious major issues or debates going on. The conversation of what is "canon" is certainly interesting, but has been raging for years; Star Wars fans today would NOT survive the continuity upheaval of the Clone Wars, despite many claiming that Legends was more airtight and coherent than the current canon (it was not).
@@thevomchar1018 This is valid. For example, the old gripe about "medi-chlorians" is 25 years old at this point, so it's beating a dead bantha to even mention it. As I'm reading more about the current controversy, I'm realizing how intense it is (I started writing this video before the Acolyte even dropped). Seems like the debate is at a fever pitch. On one hand, people are saying the fandom is united in hating the Acolyte. On the other hand, I see a lot of fans upset that there's so much "rage baiting" on UA-cam. It's all a little over my head honestly. But I think it speaks to my point in the video: people really care about stories, and the "battle" over them is an important aspect of our culture worth paying attention to as perhaps symptomatic of bigger cultural issues.
12:53 Anakin was not immaculate conception, but virgin birth. They are too different concepts. Immaculate conception refers to the doctrine that Virgin Mary was free of the original sin from the moment of her own conception. Her conceiving Jesus Christ through the Holy spirit is called a virgin birth.
The fact you get something this basic, that takes fives seconds of research to find out, wrong, makes the research you put into your entire video questionable.
All this hand wringing and brow furrowing over what’s “canon” is hilarious. The entire franchise has been glorified fan fiction for many years, who cares what’s canon and what isn’t. Grow up, cherry pick your own canon, and shut up about it 😂
George didnt break any lores, its literally his lores.