Was Achilles Gay? | An Interview with Madeline Miller | Gay History with Tom Ranzweiler
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- It's time to take what you think you know about Homer's The Iliad and throw it out the window.
What's the true nature of the relationship between the ancient Greek hero Achilles and his lifelong companion Patroclus? Madeline Miller, the New York Times bestselling author and writer of "Song of Achilles," breaks it down for us in this week's episode of Gay History with Tom Ranzweiler.
It's part of a new series that explores the hidden sexuality of the world's biggest figures in history & pop culture.
If you're queer your history is much longer than you think, full of LGBTQ characters who changed the world, and you deserve to be proud of it.
For more info:
Twitter: @gayhistorytr
Instagram: @gayhistorytr
Email: TomRanzweiler@gmail.com
I LOVED the song of Achilles, don’t remember last time i read for 5 hours straight without moving. I just couldn’t stop. Such a beautiful story so well told, i cried, i laughed, i felt all the emotions
Me too! I haven't been so invested in another book since I was in middle school. I finished TSOA in like a week! Rereading it again but slower this time 🤗
Same 😭
YEEEESSS SAME
me right now crying 😭
Omgg sameeee😭😭
Books and interviews like these make me feel less abnormal, not like a side character or an afterthought but more like part of history and humanity. So thank you to both of you.
That means a lot to hear. Thank you for watching!
Gay people are all over history
In my language the Illiad has always been translated with Parroclus said to be Achilles' lover and most dearest person in his life (like his other half)
But when I read the translations in English I always saw them described as good friends, which doesn't really makes sense given the reaction Achilles gets when he learns that Patroclus has died...
That's why I absolutely loved the way she chose to write them in Song of Achilles, it is such an emotional and beautifully written book ❤
You did not read a translation as such... That's a total lie
which language?
So if someone kills my best friend or COUSIN according to the ORIGINAL SOURCE Homer, which whom I grew up together and was like a brother to me... It would be "strange" for all of you weak minded to take revange from the guy who did it? Mf if someone killed one of my cousins I would erase his existance... I have no brothers or sisters and my cousins ARE my brothers... So all of you saying all this nonsence about he was too angry too sad... OF COURSE HE WAS AS HE SHOULD
@@asoasotriadio"you can't be that sad about another man's death unless you were lovers" is such a disgusting harmful reasoning
@@raulpetrascu2696 but u dont ask for their ashes to be mixed and burried with urs so u can be with them in the afterlife forever if ur just friends XDDD
i love her TO DEATH. she is a true ally and i cant tell how much this kind of support means to us queer people. madeline miller, your book changed my life and i cant thank you enough for that!
I finished it today and it was pretty good. To everyone saying they didn't like it.... You do realize that she didn't write the Iliad nor was she trying to. She was writing her own interpretation because she wanted to and it isn't going to match up with the Iliad all of the way because say it with me IT'S AND INTERPRETATION AND IT ISN'T ABOUT THE WAR IT'S ABOUT THEM BEING GAY. And if they weren't gay in the Iliad that's ok because she wasn't trying to write the Iliad!
And if you find they way she wrote a gay relationship offensive that's ok. You're allowed to have your own opinion. You just don't need to invalidate others. And I can't speak on behalf of gay men but as a queer woman I didn't feel like it was a gross representation. The whole plot was from Patroclus' view and he saw Achilles through rose colored glasses and didn't know what a proper relationship should be like. Overall it's not that deep. I'm glad there are shades in Greek mythology so they were together in the end!
@@libertylibertylibertyliber1520 I totally respect this thought a d your point is made clear. My whole problem is that people read this book and it does validate to them that they did have a relationship. Whether that's awkward or true or damning, it spreads that tale further and she really does want it to be true and I absolutely believe Madeline thinks they're lovers. She brings up broken pottery and this and that. Some quote about kisses but I can't find that translation anywhere.
One commenter literally says that patro. Can be replaced by a women and the story wouldn't change... A lot of the people who like her book, never read the Iliad... I want to say, I really don't care if they are or aren't but I just want the truth. Not some fairy tale version that makes people feel good... The Iliad is about war and life. So many people get killed horribly and somehow, someway it comes down to two men who keep women as sex slaves being secretly or surreptitiously lovers is beyond all that's known.
So I don't think it's offensive... What's offensive is a mass of people being delusional to a work that's basically unable to clarify anything and excludes much of Greek life in that era.
That's the insult. It's too simplistic.
@@TheReedable I agree. But also it is just a book about a war that may or may not have happened. People make their own interpretations of books and movies all of the time. I just think it's not that big of a deal because at the end of the day the Iliad is just a book. It's not an actually account of what happened. Homer made it up based on a war that might have happened. People just take Greek mythology too seriously as if it isn't... mythology. I would get people getting mad if it was a religious book or something but it's not. People need to chill and realize the Iliad wasn't real and neither is the song of Achilles it's all just entertainment.
@@libertylibertylibertyliber1520
Well said... I think you really touch on it well. I personally do not care but I am at it for a slightly seperate issue. You're absolutely right though. I do wish that more people had this concept. Well done!
@@TheReedable I'm also not saying it's perfect. I do agree that it's inaccurate. Thank you for not blowing up on me. Some people are so mad and take out their anger on strangers on the internet. I'm thinking of trying to read the Iliad after I read Circe by Madeline Miller. Have you read the Iliad? I try not to argue with people about it bc I know I don't know everything bc I haven't read it. I might have the same view as you after I read it. It's going to take so long to read all of them though so I need to find the most relevant ones to read.
In "Le Banquet" from Platon where Agathon and Socrate are debating about Love and Eros, there are plenty example of lovers and heroes. Achilles and Patroclus are a part of them, depicted as true lovers.
i just finished the song of achilles yesterday and i was crying my eyes out.The Song of achilles is divine and exceptional!!!!
Achilles is the golden boy but Patroclus is BEST BOY. Period.
Aeschylus wrote Iliad “fanfic”? That’s dope.
*cackle*
I’ve never cried at a book as much as this one. I finished, and I’m in mourning, seriously. She’s such a brilliant author. Such a beautiful, beautiful story.
Tsoa is hands down the most beautiful book I have ever read. I love the fact that it allows you to see the whole, traditional story through the eyes of a character, as Madeline says, that has pretty much always been in the background, but manages such stunts at the end, changing the sorts of the war. It was very much needed, a book that could give us more of such a character, Patroclus. As well as it was needed to have a deeper portrait of the relationship between him and the great Achilles, as it is the only way to ease the heart of those who never found satisfaction in acknowledging the bond between the two in the limited 'close companions' definition.
I loved listening to Madeline saying how she felt the urge to write the story in this way and that nothing was gonna stop her, because honestly, now we have a much-needed appendix of the original story.
One of the best romantic books I’ve ever read and as a gay person I feel so connected with Achilles and Patroclus. Thank you Madeline and Tom for this delightful interview!
The "who was top and who was bottom" war is also fueled by how Homer actually explicitly states that Patroclus is older than Achilles. Then again that could just mean he's more mature. But also there's the part where Achilles disguised and passed for a girl and NOBODY figured it out. Odysseus had to pull a trick to get Achilles to reveal himself. With that knowledge of Achilles perfectly disguised as a girl, in regards to his relationship with Patroclus, use your imagination.
But also the cousins bit also comes from the fact that Patroclus' grandmother Aegina is Achilles' great-grandmother, so they'd be first cousins once removed?
Not that anything like that has stopped lovers from coming together in those days. It's Ancient Greece, people can't keep it in their chitons to save their lives. Just ask the gods lol
or you could take a step away from this tired old heteronormative take and conclude that they were both men, rather than yaoi-style where one is really "the man" and the other really "the woman". Where topping and bottoming are things you do, not who you are. (You do know that guys can and do switch it up, right?)
truly the most beautiful book i’ve ever read
i finished the song of Achilles in 2021 of February and its now 2022 and im still crying over it and have read it for the second time i absolutely love the song of achilles
Same. I hope they make a live action adaptation of it and make it super good
How can be in touch with you Delaney, please respond to my comment
@@sihamelite2823 ……?
I just now discovered your channel. I really loved Song of Achilles, and your interview with Madeline Miller was a delight. She was compared to an earlier author who wrote several gay themed novels set in the ancient and classical world: Mary Renault. I recommend The Last of the Wine, which is set in Classical Athens when Socrates was walking its streets, and Fire from Heaven, which is a novel of Alexander the Greats childhood and adolescence. She also wrote a gay themed WW2 novel, which was contemporary for her: The Charioteer. A gay woman herself, Mary Renault should get more attention I think.
I just finished the book and I can’t stop being depressed. It hurt my soul 😭😭
People in the comments are so funny. I am Greek, I have read the ancient Greek text and it is implied. And furthermore, Plato in the Symposium said it pretty clearly.
ah no. You did nothing of the sort. Please stop trying to turn every fictional character into an LGBT+ representation. The whole notion that achilles was gay comes from song of achilles book.
@@shonenhikada9254 people had the thought of Achilles and Patroclus being lovers before her book came out from original text and books and songs it is implied that they were more then friends with the making ever fictional character lgbt+ I agree that people try to make ever character apart of it and it’s fuckin ridicules
@@shonenhikada9254 but that is just my opinion off of what I’ve seen and re searched
@@shonenhikada9254 do more research I suggest
@@na-ll1yl can anybody confirm they were gays? The most trusted source in this matter is Iliad . They were no lovers according to Iliad.
a SOA movie please, like bruuuuh, them being cousins are weird AHHAHAHAHA
I can't think of anyone but Brad Pitt Troy Era as Achilles. Ugh. So sad.
@@bolothetitan5009 Brad Pitt looked like the perfect Achilles, I’m still so butthurt that they made them cousins
@@adriana8607 kissin' cousins , as we'd say in the south lol
I'm almost certain someone is thinking about making it rn
I'm laughing so hard at 0:34 in cc patroclus is written metropolis. I can't 😭😭😭
This is so wonderful! You did a great job interviewing and bringing up really salient points, and Madeline's answers were insightful and fun, as always.
So relieved that I pronounced Agamemnonn properly in my head.
This interview was so good. A lot of points really hit home for me. A beautiful novel. Thank you.
this was wonderful to watch. thank you so much!
I'm just saying if one of them was a girl this would totally be read as love not a friendship just sayin
I wonder, if Madeline cried just as we did, while writing TSOA….
9:59 cracked me up so much XD
Recently discovered this channel and I'm currently obsessed
Just finished the book and their live was so beautiful... Makes me believe in love
I took a Greek myth class when I was 19 and im 39 now.. patroclus and achilles were always lovers in my view.. it only became an issue when the troy movie came out because they changed him into his cousin. Age wise patroclus and Achilles may have been close in age but achilles was the "alpha"
I love how when characters are gay, they decide that the best idea is to make them cousins.
@@rosesweetcharlotte maybe that's where kissing cousins term came about
@@rosesweetcharlotte do you think they took inspiration from sailor moon or do you think it was coincidental
Well your ''Greek Myth Class'' probably missed to mention that they were actual cousins. In fact Patroclus was older than Achilles, and he took refuge in his uncle's Peleus court, because he had accidentally murdered another kid and his father ''exiled'' him in fear of retribution by the dead's relatives (which was actually obligatory). Patroclus after that experience he was very thoughtful and Peleus trusted him to be Achilles companion in training and sort of a bodyguard.
So the whole Song of Achilles version of Patroclus is just a pretty bad and cheap novelization with an agenda. Patroclus was a famed warrior in his own right not a housewife. In fact in the Iliad Achilles in order to allow him to impersonate him when the Trojans broke in the Argive camp, made him swear that he wont try to attack the city of Troy itself. And that because Achilles was afraid that he was actually capable to do and possibly break in, depriving him of the glory that was to be his. In that sense that book did Patroclus dirty.
Btw in ancient Greece what we understand today as as ''gay'' would meet ridicule or even the death penalty. There are actually written laws and these also applied to slaves. Yes they had a different approach to sexuality, which by today's terms could be characterized as periodic bisexuality. But it was expected that everybody would eventually marry and produce heirs.
All those ''fabulous'' effeminate people who celebrate the ancient Greek culture as a gay Disneyland of sorts, if they took a time trip they would end up being characterized as ''kinaidos'' (shame bringer) and end up at best exiled at worst killed.
Projecting modern morals to the past in order to justify ones existence/choices is both sad and dumb.
@@joek600 altho there are some ancient story tellers depict patroclus as achilles cousin, homer never did. As far as homosexuality as taboo back then thats absurd... slaves had different laws than regular citizens. Achilles and Patroclus were not slaves.
I just finished. My eyes hurt from crying
what an amazing interview, thank you!!
i loved this!!
I love this!
Patiently waiting for The Tempest....
The Song of Achilles is such an interesting book that I've ever read, I remember that I spent just only 2 days reading all of it with all my feelings
Bi- sexuality in Ancient Greece was considered the norm not the exception.I’m straight but less face it Patroclus being Achilles gay lover is the only thing that makes sense it certainly explains the incoherent rage at his death . It probably was very obvious in the original Ancient Greek maybe when they translated it to English they gave it a PG13 rating lol
No it wasn’t. Lol It was mocked and ridiculed… you are getting your views from a skewed modern lens
@@MattieK09 lol mate are you kidding me . The Greeks were famous for it yeah they were mocked for it . By the rest of the ancient world are you telling me that the accounts of the Theban sacred band are a product of modern fiction. Ancient Sparta was one big daisy chain the agoge was an SM gay orgy masquerading as a military academy where do you think the term “ Greek love “ comes from. You know the saying that stereotypes often have a core of truth to them.look I agree that it wasn’t as prevalent as is probably thought. But it was prevalent enough & accepted enough for them to be widely known for it.Also notice I never said homosexuality I said bi sexuality it was still expected for male citizens to marry & have offspring for the benefit of the state it was accepted they could have boyfriends on the side. Oh by the way pretty sure the island of lesbos is in Greece you what ladies are named after that particular island lol 😂
@@kenfaunt7930 There is only one account of the Theban band literally hundreds of years after its demise. Plutarch. And what he writes is just sensationalism and gossip that truly makes no sense. I would like someone who has ever been in the army, to explain to me, with what kind of sorcery or dating service did the Theban state manage to pair 300 men in bonds of unconditional love.
Herodotus claims 1 million Persian army (possibly including camp followers and non combatants) but we say ''oh no its impossible 100000 tops''. Plutarch spews some town gossip after 300 years but because that sounds good for the gay agenda ''Off course 300 lovers ready to die for each other, totally possible, approved!''.
@@joek600 well I’m afraid I can’t help you on that score 9 operational deployments for my sins and yes the whole concept is unlikely and is more than likely however we also must not fall into imposing our modern sensibilities onto ancient cultures. The fact remains that the tsb did exist in what form we really don’t know as Phillip ll pretty much wiped them out at the battle of Chaeronea incidentally the birthplace of Plutarch I’m sure that nothing to with his interest lol Also remember that warfare back then wasn’t all year round but seasonal so less like a full time professional army more like a talented national guard.So the idea of the rich landed gentry forming some sort of elite war fraternity isn’t totally impossible and going by the attitude of the time it’s entirely possible that it contained some famous gay lover s but yes you’re right a whole unit extremely unlikely.Here’s the thing why did Plutarch mention it as far as I can tell it’s the only ancient military unit to have this reputation and myth behind it. The question remains why? You’re correct Plutarch wrote centuries after the fact but did he make it up or was he influenced by already existing folklore particularly growing up in the site of their last stand . Personally I think it’s one of those arguments where both sides can be right or both wrong. I think the reality is somewhere in the middle I think it was an elite hoplite force that had some fashionable gay playwrights, poets etc within its ranks so the reputation grew from there.
TSOA makes me want to learn Greek just so i could read Iliad!
you can! there’s so many translations to choose from
I am Greek, and The Iliad was a subject at school (at the 8th grade I think)
I am just so impressed that it has become so famous all over the world !
If you haven't read it yet let me explain (it is way more interesting that the Odyssey to me)
So, the main topic of the Iliad is definitely not the Trojan War
It is the Achilles' rage
Achilles as you probably know was the BEST Greek warrior and he went to Troy just to fight for his honor and pride His mother Thetis had informed him that if he went to Troy he wouldn't come back and Achilles back then was very young (probably 13)
(The Trojan War was all about the Spartan Queen, Helen who was taken by Paris away from Menelaus) To avoid going to the war, Achilles' mother tried to hide him in Scyros (a greek island) in Lycomedes' kingdom, dressed as a girl.
Odysseus found him using a trick and Achilles revealed himself, so even if he didn't want to go to, he had to, and Achilles went of course (+i almost forgot, in our school book Patroclus and Achilles were described as cousins, not true)
But wind never came and the ships wouldn't of course move without it and the Greeks couldn't sail for Troy
Agamemnon had a daughter Iphigenia and told Achilles to marry her, but instead they sacrificed her to Artemis (goddess)
Wind came and they were finally able to go to Troy
When they were there, they tried to fight the Trojans, as you know ..
Without Achilles Troy would never fall ..
In the fourth year people had started to complain about the length of the war so Achilles went to Agamemnon himself to say it .. nothing changed, Troy had to fall as Agamemnon said
They had captured many slave girls by then and one of them was Briseis, Achilles had her as a war prize but Agamemnon tried to take her from him, Achilles didn't let him (in my book it was said that Achilles loved Briseis, something the teachers knew wasn't right ofc but still taught us, and before i read the book or other epic poems i believed it was right, i know the book is based only on the Iliad but i read Plato's Symposium also and i was convinced, we will Never know what is right but historians believe that version as well and it seems to be the right one)
Years had passed and another girl was captured, her name was Chryseis and this time Agamemnon had her for himself only ..
Her father was a priest of Apollo and he offered gold to take her back but Agamemnon didn't accept it and kept her
Apollo then struck the Greeks with a deadly plague and they indeed started to die
Achilles one day after years couldn't take it anymore and went to Agamemnon
They started fighting and Achilles swore he wouldn't fight for him anymore
Patroclus asked for his armour, to fight for him instead as you probably know
Achilles accepted but Patroclus went further than he had actually promised and he fought with the Trojans
He killed Sarpedon som of Zeus and 52(?),I think, more then he was killed by Hector
The rest, you might know, Hector fought with Achilles for Patroclus' death and Hector died as well
Achilles tied his legs with a rope behind his chariot and started to drag him all the way to their camp
Priam, then, at night asked for his son's body back and for 12 days Greeks didn't attack the Trojans
But on the 12th day Odysseus had a plan
They would enter in Troy with the Trojan Horse presenting it as a gift to the gods
On the same night Greeks burnt Troy and Achilles died because of Paris' arrow
Hope it helps ❤ Also reas the original Iliad you will love it, that was just a summary from me 😁❤ thank you
I really hope you’re going to keep this channel going!! I love your interview style & subjects! 🙏
That was a wonderful interview
The ending for some reason made me more sad when it should of made me happy…
Plato was convinced that Achilles was the bottom, and honestly, I get it
Fantastic interview. Thank you
The Song of Achilles is a very good book, however, I want to remind young people that the story is taken from the original song of Homer, the Greek, which is much more exciting and wonderful, Homer the Greek, is one of the poets considered timeless for the beauty of his works, The Iliad and The Odyssey, please do not miss the opportunity to read them too. Greetings!
it’s a very incredibly piece of literature, however i think us young people prefer to read writing that is a bit more up to date and ‘clicks’ with the minds of today. i also enjoy a bit more freedom in works and i find that song of achilles explores patroclus and achilles as characters more and sets up a beautiful development over the plot.
@@rene9736 i agree, and i am really happy just because every one, even you know the name of the great Homer, the wonder mind to write the original story of the original character into the Iliada y the Odisea, i am really happy. The rest is your choise, 🤗
Thank you for this beautiful book
This channel is so needed ugh I love this
If Achilles and Patroclus were gay lovers, Achilles and probably Patroclus must have been bisexual.
In one scene in Book 9 of the Iliad the two of them are portrayed as sharing a tent, but not as sleeping beside each other; each of them has a slave girl sleeping beside them as a concubine. Achilles is very upset when a beautiful young slave woman he has captured in the War is taken from him by the Greek commander Agamemnon.
Also in Book 9, when Agamemnon desperately needs Achilles' help and is trying to patch up the quarrel between them by offering Achilles the most fantastic rewards, the list includes Briseis, Agamemnon's daughter in marriage, gold and '20 captured women of your choice when we conquer Troy, the most beautiful you can find.'
Agamemnon thus perceives Achilles as primarily desiring beautiful women, or else he would presumably have offered Achilles handsome captured men instead.
So if they are lovers, Patroclus apparently does not mind Achilles screwing young women as well.
I do not know what significance to attach to the fact that after Patroclus is killed in battle, Achilles sacrifices 12 young Trojan princes (yes, human sacrifice) on his funeral pyre.
Although thinking about it further, in the Iliad, Achilles reaction to losing the girl Briseis who is his slave concubine, while strong, is far less than the explosion of grief and anger when he loses Patroclus.
Your comment should be pinned.💔
This is great. Congrats!
Just binge read the book. Omg😢
Although it was a good read, the only problem with the book is summed up by your compliment: It’s a very modern gay love story. Life in Classical Greece was nowhere close to our world and values, and that unfortunately does not come across to us in the book. Thanks for the interview, it was fun to listen to.
This book broke me. 💔
I love so much this book! The Song of Achilles is my favorite love story! Congratulations for this video!
Here to add another gayyy 🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈 comment to drown out the homophobes. I just finished this book and y’all… idk how else their story could be interpreted, Achilles wanted their ashes to be mixed in together… idk how that could be interpreted straight😂
Dumb. You don't have to be a homophobe to clearly see that in the Iliad, Achilles is banging his sex slave and Patroclus is banging his sex slave. Homer explicitly says they have different beds with those women...
@@TheReedable Ew. So you would rather see them as these gruesome men "banging" slaves and treating women as property and objects rather than seeing them together as couple who is treating each other equally? Your misogyny is showing. There's a reason why we like seeing them as lovers because that makes more sense themetically and is just more wholesome than them just being gross men taking advantage of women (who back in that time had little of say if they wanted to be "banged" or no). Also Homer didn't invent the story of Trojan war, he just wrote it down and many others after him were interpreting them as lovers (as stated in the video, but I doubt you watched it since you're so triggered lmao)
@@mmmvvv444 honestly your input is so childish its boring to go much further than the first sentence.
Its not about them being these gruesome men as you put it. ITS ABOUT THE TRUTH.
Thats just what they were. Exactly what they were. War-mongering, take everything, and kill them all type of people. I dont know what your mysogony or anything means.
Achilles gave back Briseis to Priam... And idk where and in what way Achilles or Patro mistreat or mysogonize anything. Please name that part of the book.
Furthermore, No Homer didn't 'interpret' anything. These poems dont have that kind of allusions. If anyone mistreats women its Paris. Thats obvious.
However, I dont think you read the Iliad. Its pretty clear that you did not. So Whats so funny is how triggered you are because its your own ignorance that compels you to lash out at me.
Whereas I am intelligent and READ the works people write about.
You literally said nothing. All you said was. 'wouldn't it be nice if they were mean assholes?" Lol its a book about WAR.
Not about some love affair between two men with sex slaves. Homer literally describes them in different beds with their own sex slaves.
Trust me, women were nothing but property to the men in that time period. NOTHING, but property.
When Troy fell, Hektors wife became a sex slave, allegedly. Her baby, thrown from the walls of Troy.
So the mysogony part, kind of irrelevant. This isn't a social justice story.
@@TheReedable I have read both the Illiad and the Odyssey starting in high school because it's part of European school education system, but I don't have to prove myself to you or anyone of my knowledge :) You might say you've read it too but it's obvious that you haven't analyzed its various themes because you think the only way to interpret it is: WAR!!1!! when the Illiad itself is condemning war and you think someone hasn't read the Illiad bc they analyzed and found a deep connection between two male characters. You're the one that portrayed them as gruesome men by saying that they "banged their sexslaves" so I said that some of us don't want to interpret that as the main love dynamic of the book (since that's the argument you're presenting to dispute Achilles' and Patroclus' love) when we have a better and more healthier dynamic between two men.
You say you're intelligent but you don't know what misogyny is, how funny. You can speak of Achilles and Patroclus sleeping with women too all you want, that doesn't disprove their love at all, in fact what you said that women were just property just goes to show how they saw women as sexual objects only but them as men were worthy of each other's deepest affections. After all, they were buried and went to the afterworld with each other, not with their bedslaves. There's a reason why people see them as lovers and if you don't like it don't go to spaces where people speak of them in a romantic sense. Like you're literally arguing over this under a video where they're talking about them as a couple. Now that's childish! Might as well travel back to BC and argue with Plato and dozens of others who saw them as lovers. Bye
@@mmmvvv444 I honestly have no idea what you're on about... They are not lovers... Homer in no way at all alludes to them being lovers. Patroclus doesn't even speak to Achilles as a lover. He is smaller status than Achilles and most of the Greek army.
You have continuously misconstructed the time they live in. For some reason you want to view them as lovers because it makes you feel better? Rather than mysogonystic?
I guess Hitler was just trying to make rainbows and love everyone.
I have no idea what you're even saying. Yes the women were very insignifanct in that era and for many years to come. THey are just property. Thats why Helen caused the war... Thats why most women barely say a thing and have no power to do anything. Thats why Briseis is a sex slave and why Achilles gets to do what he wants. Thats why Agamemnon takes her from him and why this whole wrath of achilles begins. The story is about Achilles and his rage....
This whole love affair and whatever is not there... Show me one line in the Iliad that alludes to them being lovers in any sort of way...?
ANd you can ignore the fact that they keep slaves and say they're lovers, but that's not proof.... Thats just your idea. Like this authors... Except she manipulates an entire epic to suit her deluded interpretation.
If I had a friend die in a battle in my place, I would be pretty upset...
Show me anything. You just rant and honestly I am glad you're done. You proved nothing and wasted your time.
I'll wait for your 'proof' in the meanwhile...
There was a movie called Love Story with Rtan ONeil.
Homer 'writes' in the Iliad that after Patroclus' funeral Achilles is lying in bed struggling to sleep. He is longing for Patroclus. The Greek word translated as longing is ambiguous, but it can mean sexual longing.
So, I LOVE. LOVE. LOVEEEEEEE this book it is one of my favorites!
But heres my (personal) problem.
Homers Iliad was written in 900 BC. there are 15,600 lines in it. and 764 of those lines are in doubt.. so 4.9% is in doubt. So what if we are interpreting it wrong? People do this with the Bible all the time, and other books, arguing its old and people interpret things wrong. in no way am I bashing this, I love this book, but the only problem is we may have not understood some lines and messed up words... I don't know I have a lot of trust issues lol
(Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm taking this from class notes!)
In which countries and cultures do heterosexual men hold hands when walking together?
While serving in the military during the fifties, I noticed that the men in the Philippines often held hand in public and usually walked ahead of the women. I am not sure it is still an accepted habit because some of the nice Phillippine customer service folks that I have talked with tell me that customs are changing.
Lmao later authors from Ancient Greece wrote slash fiction of the Iliad
Guys I'm Greek...
I don't know what translation anyone here has read, But in Homers Iliad they are not depicted as lovers cause they were not.
Read Patroclus backstory in fact read every characters backstory:
*SPOILER*
After Patroclus had accidentally killed a commoners son in a game of dice, Patroclus dad (Menoetius) goes to Phthia were King Peleus (Achilles dad) reigned.
Explains the situation and asks Peleus to take his son in his care. (Peleus and Menoetius were both Argonauts... So old friends)
Achilles and Patroclus grow up together.
Patroclus may have been older but the age gap wasn't so great they would be considered to practice pederasty + pederasty wasn't a thing in Homers timeline.
Homosexuality was a taboo in ancient Greece as well not so much for the "Top" but more for the "Bottom" if they enjoyed it they were being ridiculed, frowned upon and seen as feminine...
Again every philosopher had translated Homers Iliad according to their timeline.
Even Pederasty which was a common practice specially in Athens around Plato's, Phaedrus,Alcibiades and Xenophon timeline.
Wasn't always accepted in Ancient Greece.
Socrates's (Plato's teacher) believed that these two were just really good friends that grew up together.
He was clearly against the idea of them being lovers.
Socrates's did live long enough to see the practice of pederasty be accepted but clearly in his prime that wasn't the case.
So we are not talking about Achilles reaction being a friend losing a friend, but more of losing a brother.
So let's norrow it:
Homer:
Never said anything about it them being lovers, instead he left it to the audience.
Socrates:
Clearly against the idea of them being lovers
Aeschylus:
Supports it and places Achilles the role of "erastes" and Patroclus as "eromenos"
Plato:
Doesn't like Aeschylus role arrangement and reverses them
Xenophon
Against the idea of them being lovers
Aeschines
Remains Neutral and goes by Homers words
So as you can see everyone has their own take on the story according to their timeline and personal beliefs...
Even today!
Hollywood depicts them as really close relatives, other sources as lovers, and others as really good friends.
The way Homer told the Iliad and it's characters back story's I believe they were like brothers.
There has always been that discussion about whether or not they were lovers, but the issue came in the 1970s when there was a sexual revolution. Plus, now everybody wants to put that queer ideology into everything (this is coming from a homosexual man).
Now, tell me you wouldn't react the same way if it was your cousin or brother that got killed. Patroclus was a very close friend to Achilles, as you said, they were like family.
Get your common sense out of here…
yes! next question
No lol
JAJAJAJJA YES
No.
❤️❤️❤️ you’re amazing
I don't think he was gay , at least not in modern terms , but Patroclus was his lover. Let's keep in mind that back then , if you had a wife she could die giving birth. It makes sense for having same sex open relationships around the marriage to keep the wife alive to take care of the home and to keep from breeding children with someone else which means you'll have to divert resources from your other children to them.
There is a movie called Mandingo starring boxer Ken Norton wherein his master had a gay interest in him.
incredible
A great book, really
wdym, was he gay?? HE SCREWED HIS BOYFRIEND MULTIPLE TIMES-
So after 3000 years of debate, she's the one who figured it all out?
Madeline Miller, how can i please reach you, I'm doing a research about your novel , I'll be soooo grateful if i could get in touch with you
The writing is fine, but I think I'd like the story of Circe better.
14:30 apparently she has never been to a classics dept or a conference
My opinion is that Achilles is gay and if you disagree it’s because of patriarchy and “society” or you’re just homophobic …. Classic.
Why do you always abuse people who don't share with you the same values,in my culture homosexuality is something filthy,an act against the human nature,who gave you the right to judge others,what definite proof do you have to be so sure of your beliefs . You're like cultural dictators,try to respect distinctions ... so you could be more human.
50 shades of grey in Greek mythology. Bad book and not sad at all.
Note the part where it's fiction
As much as we want something to be a part of us we do have to accept the facts that history is cruel and sometimes we read into things with the modern thought of what being gay is
We still loved him not romantic leee but u understand
Jfc how are they not crying
You have talked about who is top or bottom AHAHAHAHAHAH
i think Achilles is the bottom :D
i really loved this video❤
q u e e n
c r I n g e
Putnam Books exists or existed.
I just finished the book and am sorry to say I hated it. I kept paying attention to what page I was on to know how much more I had to read before I was done. I’m a 65 year old gay man, for me it harkened back to the early days of gay stories where they always end in tragedy. The price to pay for gay love is a tragic ending. From The Front Runner in the late 1970s to Broke Back Mountain in the early 2000s it was the statement being made. Be gay and end tragic. I was never so glad to put this book behind me and forget it.
I'm sorry but why did you expect a different ending? The story is from the 7th century so the ending was already written. I think what's special in this book is the author's take on their romantic relationship, something that many retellings of the Iliad don't care to explore (see for example the movie Troy). So I really don't understand your point on "be gay and end tragic" when the story was tragic to begin with.
He gay
He may have been gay, but he was racist, too, so it kind of balances out.....
And a colonizer
.
Yes he was
No he is NOT.
Homer doesn't mention anything about sexual interaction between Achilles and Patroclus.
You might be but not Achilles
Why are people obsessed with being gay or trans hear days.. gets tiresome to be force fed
NWO
🤓
What? This is history that was supressed by Christian writers and we are simply finding out the truth
In the Illiad he fights Agamemnon for a woman. Homosexuality is never mentioneed. It is in a comedy entitled "The Mirmidons" which was staged 800 years after the Trojan war that such nonsense is mentioned. So, use all the facts before you make conclutions.
Bisexuality exists, although we shouldn’t apply modern terms to ancient greeks. In the illiad, although it isn’t specifically stated that they are gay lovers, it is heavily implied
@@air2091no it's not.
Homer doesn't mention anything about sexual interaction between Achilles and Patroclus.
Stop making things up to fit your narratives.
Stop trying to twist Hellenic culture to push your personal political agenda.
@@air2091so weird that you’re this desperate to make 3000 year old character gay. Says a lot about you
@@MattieK09 how is it weird? Homosexuality was extremely common in ancient greek culture. If anything, it says a lot about you in how you refuse to believe that it’s possible for homosexuality to exist in the ancient world. Why are you so offended by it? Does it make you uncomfortable?
@@EudaimonV i never said it was explicitly stated? I said it was implied, and also various greek groups changed the story to make their own narrative for it. It could be possible that achilles was in a homosexual relationship, idk why you are so offended by that?
What is everyone’s obsession with the song of Achilles to prove he is gay
Representation
To me its not just representation but to bring out the fact that homosexuality has been part of history for a long time and it’s been represented in history as close friendships or completely ignored, homosexuality has been in cultures all over from the Native Americans, to Greece, to Japan.
I have no idea because homers Iliad explicitly tells us that Achilles and Patroclus have their own sex slaves with separate beds.... I wonder what they did to those women?
@@RedChaos1208got it. Bend the historical data to fit your modern interpretations… classic. At least you state your bias
Funny that someone so well versed in the mythology and history still felt the need to retcon huge sections of the story to create a heteronormative couple in the modern day ideal of a relationship with clear masc/fem dynamics rather than allowing a realistic portrayal of a gay relationship at the time with nuance. Honestly the extent to which the source material is manipulated to make it fit a straight person's idea of a gay relationship is offensive.
Well... this type of products are aimed to straight women the same way as lesbian relationships are portrayed in order to please the male gaze.
@@andres.alegre It just annoys me that she clearly knows the actual mythology and history and then makes an active decision to throw it away for convenience.
And it annoys me how everyone acts like she's an amazing person for writing a gay book despite it being poor representation of a gay relationship and objectively poorly written.
Holy Shit, thank you so much for saying this Alex. I hate this book for that exact reason and thought I was the only one.
@@olivercartwright6822 Yeah I think it's just clear that this was written for straight women bc those are the only people that seem to like it
I'm kind of surprised by this. There is not just one type of gay man, so there can't really be one realistic portrayal of a gay relationship. I'm gay and I didn't notice anything heteronormative about their relationship, I just saw two men who were in love and had different characteristics, as gay men do in the real world.
This is an author who was frustrated with the heteronormativity, of the world sweeping their relationship under the rug. She has in my eyes done an incredible job and is an asset and a huge ally to our community, this comment honestly made me sad. It's alright to personally not like the book, but these accusations are pretty harsh imo
A better question would be: why is it so necessary for Achilles to be gay? And the general observation from reading so much on ancient Greece is that pederasty was common and that it was frowned upon. We do we have to assume male comrades MUST be gay? GAY is an ideology with an agenda and why should I listen to your drivel?
Why is it so necessary for Achilles to be straight?
Great questions… yet they never reflect on that.
Achilles was sad so he's gay?
use your brain, nobody said that.
@@yuusiko because he wasn't gay.
@@jonog40 obviously he wasn’t gay, the word « gay » didn’t even exist. think.
@@yuusiko *eyeroll* he wasn't homosexual either
@@jonog40 name evidences then.
let’s debate.
They weren't gay.
In the movie " Troy." Achilles is a Mack Daddy..he's kicking it with two women at a time...the thought of him being gay breaks my heart....
Well, nobody can prove that he was gay and it's all myth. Most men of the time, even the great warriors, had relationships with other men though sorry to burst your bubble. Being gay doesn't make you any less of a man or a warrior.
@@Sorcerollo I only read it for a class, so I had to read it...I do have a problem with a man who doesn't like women...it aint cool...i'm just sayin...
@@Sorcerollo”most men had relationships with other men” hahahah 🤡
a woman not understanding the bond of brothers. Got it
No he's not gay ffs. Trust me, a gay dude cannot be the greatest warrior of them all. Still, great story.
No he was not gay... There is literally 0 reference to any homosexuality in the book. Patroclus and achilles shared quarters but they both had warbrides. The story starts with Achilles losing his war bride...
Soldiers now sleep in the same barracks... It's silly analysis. I'm not even sure where this idea even comes from... Plato? The guy who said Atlantis is some place? Achilles avenges patroclus out of guilt for not being there himself. We don't even know who patroclus is in the story. He has no rank or anything. He just fights for Greece and has knightly qualities. Basically the quintessential Greek at the time.
read the book.
@@piratehalfdroid7370 I think you should read the Iliad, and find out for yourself
@@TheReedable I've actually read it. Alot, from my childhood until now. You are fond of missing the clear signs of homosexuality and nitpicking it.
@@piratehalfdroid7370 there is no homosexuality... None. All the signs you think you see, is wrong.
Just because he gives him his armour and is guilty when he dies signifies no homosexuality. Furthermore, there is absolutely no seen that shows any romanticism toward each other. When patroclus dies, everyone is mournful. Even briseis, who isn't Greek...
If you want to present me an argument, instead of just claiming it to be so, I'll be here to shatter your proof
@@TheReedable 1. You think there are no signs because you simply dont want to dg hard for the subtle signs. You think thay proof of this is a scream from achilles "IM GAY".
2. Find it yourself. I dont own you shit, just because you refuse to get out of your straight-washed reality.
3. If you can nitpick every detail and have a "straight" excuse for every single one then not even the truth or the soul of Achilles himself can convince your stubborn soul.
I finally got through this whole conversation...
First off, Achilles doesn't fight because Agamemnon ruins the whole glory and honor thing, which was huge for Greek warriors.
Second, both Achilles and Agamemnon have warbrides and we all know what they're doing to them... Talk about what homer isn't mentioning...
Thirdly, why would Achilles not be upset over his cousin, which it isn't? Ten years of sailing, hand to hand combat, drama like you wouldn't believe, heros have died, people have died, economies shattered, so yeah I think people get really close. Especially if you geew up with them and spent a decade away from home.
Nothing, absolutely nothing we do today can be relateable in the Iliad. There is no subtext. These peoms don't do that.
There is no love story. The Iliad isn't about Achilles and patroclus. It's not! Why is the ending about hector's funeral and not patroclus...? It makes no sense.
And if it was about Achilles and patroclus, shouldn't the Iliad end with Achilles somehow?
Homer does a good job showing opposites and reflections in the world. Achles and patroclus are opposites of parks and Hector. Hector is prob the most noble of them all. He fights for his home and his family. Paris hides and patroclus fights and dies. Patroclus is eager for the fight not love.
There is literally no love scene between them at all.
Achles shows great admiration for him AFTER he dies. But then again so does briseis... And she isn't Greek! She's a slave st the moment! I guess Achilles and Priam have something going on too...
Patroclus is off to the side, exactly! He is a squire! And in mythology, probably later, they are cousins (Some sea goddess and zues). I don't believe it if they're real people, but homer doesn't mention cousins like he would brothers.
This song of Achilles is a joke. Confirmation bias
lol
Triggered.
damn why u so mad for
@@user-tl3bo7hl9g lol do I? Better than naive and delusional
@@lance694 smarter
Yaaaaaaawn, buuuuuuulllllllsh*t! People forget they were cousins and been fighting together since boys
Cognitive Dissonance working here
They're not cousins lol
@@maston6377 technically they are. They are both apparently relates via a goddess (which is Achilles' grandmother).
@@ukiyo_24 they were never cousins
In the movie Troy they were cousins, not in TSoA. If y’all have read it, they are very much not related and are in love.
They are not cousins. They state this in the interview why some people think this. But I think it comes from the movie where it says they are cousins. Not in the original text. But interpret it as you will