Rhino High Fidelity's New Reissue of Television's "Marquee Moon"-Great Sound or Totally Wrong?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 12 чер 2024
- Rhino's "High Fidelity" series released last week a reissue of Television's classic "Marquee Moon" cut by Kevin Gray at Cohearent Audio, using the original analog master tape. The reissue sounds great! Far better than the original pressing in terms of bass response, transient clarity and all of the audiophile "check marks" but, I argue, it's not likely what Tom Verlaine intended at all!
That's partly due to the fact that mastering engineer Kevin Gray was not familiar with the album or with the original pressing. The recording was produced at Phil Ramone's legendary A&R Studios ("Getz/Gilberto" and 100s of other great sounding records), engineered by the late Andy Johns, who surely knew how to record rock music, and mastered at Sterling Sound by (or so the credits read) Greg Calbi and Lee Hulko both of whom have incredible mastering resumes. So, I argue, the original did not sound as it did by accident! Watch the video!
And for a truly remarkable essay about the album and punk rock generally (though "Marquee Moon" was not punk rock!) by Tracking Angle contributing writer Joe Washek here:
trackingangle.com/features/to...
AND:
Subscribe to TrackingAngle UA-cam channel!
Follow Tracking Angle on social media!
Facebook group: / 605454337542602
Twitter: / tracking_angle
Instagram: / trackingangle
Just got my copy and gave it a spin. I love the Kevin Gray cut. As someone who has listened to Marquee Moon countless times over the last 40 plus years, I'm happy to say I love the original as well. I have no doubt that Verlaine & Co. wanted an edgy, lower east side vibe, but this new one, to my ears enhances the truly transcendent nature of this combo and their music. And best of all, I can play it louder! Don't worry. I'm not selling my original... and you don't have to either.
In 1977, I read about "Marquee Moon" in Creem and went to Stan's Record Store in Shreveport to get a copy. The one copy they had--the only copy they ever got--was a white label promo copy. They sold it to me and I've loved it ever since. Thanks for using the release of the reissue to discuss new issues in the re-issue market.
I think you nailed the quality of the original. Yes it’s sharp, bright, even grating at times, but that’s what it was supposed to be. It was supposed to grab you as something new and different. The harmonica at the end of desolation row is grating too, but also one of the greatest moments in pop history
Rant away, Michael. We’re here for all of it.
I, for one, absolutely love hearing all your stories. In fact I wish you would write a memoir, because you were THERE for *so* many crazy and/or notable events in music/vinyl history - everything from the Quincy Jones/Bad trial, to the vinyl boom then fall then rise again, to interacting and being there with all these iconic mastering engineers and the stories they would share, to that cartoon film you helped make in the 70s that I absolutely know the name of but which has escaped me at this moment, to all the publications you created or wrote for while trying to keep the format alive, to… stand up comedy!? Never heard of that one! - there’s so much you could write about! Do it! 👏
Plus a comedy album that needs remastering🤔!! And a great stint at WBCN
Read the story under the review of the Rhino "Change of the Century" reissue on the Tracking Angle website.
Marquee Moon STILL sounds like the future! Can't wait to hear this version. Who knows which one I'll prefer, but I love an opportunity to hear further into my favorite records.
agreed. the original is unimpeachable. I'd love to hear what difference anyone thinks they can make & call it "improved".
Nels Cline also did a rundown of Marquee Moon in his YT video "My Life in Five Riffs" starting about 9 minutes in. Really amazing breakdown from an elite, elite guitarist.
Thanks for recommending it. So great.
@@andysmusicden Glad you enjoyed it!
I totally agree, a lot of the rock stuff is just not happening compared to the jazz reissues. I still prefer the original pressings. I have about forty or so reissues I bought from the previous year and I’m selling them off. I have the original Television pressing and I always loved it. It sounds like this new one is just a different take on the older mastering. Great review, thanks.
Thank you so much!! Market is flooded with reissues and agree they should consider and study artists intent before they press. Appreciate your take. 🙏🏻
Who is "they" ? Who can definitely say what an artist's intent was unless it was explicitly stated at the the time of the recording ?
Very well said from a real authority in music audio. I’ve heard “reviews” of this record from (self-described) audiophiles that have rarely expressed any interest in the history of this brilliant record or in the history surrounding the recording of the record. We all just learned more in 10 minutes about the nature and history of the record, then any of these other sources. Thank you for caring about music. Not as a joke but as a person who has dedicated his life to music, sound and vinyl. Well done.
Soo great to have you stand up and tell it like it is! You are da man!! 🙇🏼♂️🙇🏼♂️🙇🏼♂️
I ordered the Television record, but I had what you're talking about her in mind. Gray seems to get the purest possible rendering of the master tape on lacquer. That's often wonderful to hear! But sometimes one can't help wonder if it really "should" sound that way.
Hi Mike good to see your post today.Attention to detail is so important...to transfer the skills of the artists playing into the final Vinyl cut for the new pressings.Its all about the music experience and this can be missed out rushing to get out a new re-issue ! those carefully setup turntables need good quality re-issues very close to the original sound of the original release
Mr. Fremer made a valid point - the artist's intent holds great significance in this discussion. On another note, I hope Rhino hi-fi takes on The Stooges' Fun House; in my opinion, it's one of the most crucial rock records.
Do you have Warner Originals of the John and Beverley Martyn albums? Would love to see what Rhino could do with those but I've only heard UK island pressings.
Hi Michael, I always enjoy reading your reviews and this is no exception. You mentioned that you didn't like the recent early Steely Dan reissues -- I know you didn't like the UHQR Pretzel Logic, but what about the UHQR reissues of Can't Buy a Thrill and Countdown to Ecstasy? From your TrackingAngle reviews, I thought you preferred the UHQR of Countdown to Ecstasy and liked the Can't Buy a Thrill reissue. Am I incorrect?
Those were outstanding as was the UHQR Aja.
so...with all the talk about the Kevin Gray Marquee Moon...I went and found a new copy of the Chris Bellman. Marquee Moon is one of those albums that escaped me when I was a kid. So, I have never heard the original pressing. I know I read about Television but my experience with them never went further. When I was a kid I was too busy keeping up with Kiss, Elton and Billy Joel , Styx, and Kansas, Skynyrd and the Allman Bros....etc....I'm a southern boy. That's the way it was. Now, I am hearing bands that I always read about in the Stone or whatever but never REALLY heard. I love Marquee Moon. And having not heard the original when it came out, the Bellman pressing sounds really really good to me.
As an analogy, it sounds like the reissue is the original Mapplethorpe color photo of the band, rather than the Xeroxed copy that got used for the album cover. Still looking forward to hearing it in a few days.
Hey Michael. What is your opinion on the Queen vinyl remasters from a while back? I remember you commenting to Roy Gandy that they weren't great. Can you be more specific?
Awesome I'm glad someone finally discussed this issue which has been evident in my pop/rock mentality for years. As a pop/rock fan it was often hard for me to correlate better sound with listening experience when faced with an audiophile reissue. Yes it might have sounded better but more often than not I liked listening to it less. I've been doing audiophile reissues for decades now and really like some of the 45 rpm releases. I have the new Rhino Television release and look forward to coming to a similar conclusion as you make which it pretty much the typical conclusion I make with most audiophile reissues of pop/rock records. Thanks for telling us the why (at least for some of them). It is however more common to find good ones in the era we are in than in the 80s and 90s and it's worth it to me when I find them.
Mike, have you listened to any of the other recent re-issues of Marquee Moon? Rhino did another in 2012 and re-pressed it a couple of times. (Chris Bellman/cut from the analog masters)
I'd like to know this too
I compared them back to back tonight (this and the 2012) and they’re very similar but it feels like the new release has slightly more headroom, which to me makes the drum sounds a little fuller. Still top heavy as it was recorded and mixed, but not as harsh as the earlier releases.
I have the OG Marquee Moon Elektra pressing and compared it to the Rhino Hi Fi reissue. I get what your saying Michael and Kevin's mastering is more pleasing to my ears overall. I notice, for example, the sound of the drum cymbols on Guilding Light have a warmer tonal quality. The packaging, jacket and inserts of the Rhino Hi Fi are excellent, really better than most reissues. I say own both if you can. RIP Tom Verlaine
I think the answer is Ryan Smith. Watching your vid of him cutting the Elephant reissue was enlightening - it was clear he was at pains not to start meddling for the most part, and just wanted to make a great tape transfer with some very judicious EQ etc.
RKS is the best at reissuing and keeping the original intent of the artist. I think perfect examples are his Marley UHQRs.
Do any of these reissues have the full version of the title track? Or do they fade during the last verse? I have the CD and the song ("Marquee Moon") comes to a complete 'cold/sustain' end. I also have a 12 inch single of the song. Side A is stereo. Side B is a fold down mono mix. But both fade during the last verse.
It does. Full version on this one.
Also the Rhino CD with the bonus tracks has the full version. The original release faded out, so it was TV's intent.
I remember reading a great comment about why the fade is preferable to the full take. Whoever this person was said the fact that the song essentially starts all over again and then fades makes you think it just went on forever.
Love the record and enjoyed your articulate observations. Saw the band at CBGBs couple of times, bought their single "Little Johnny Jewel" from them for $3. If I ever fall back into the vinyl rabbit hole this and the single are candidates for first records to play.
It’s one of my top fav albums since released , when I bought it, to today . I go to many gigs here in glasgow Scotland and listen to a lot of music. My Spotify wrap apparently said I listened to 80 genres of music, never knew there was that many. Still marquee moon stands up to all that’s been written and recorded since. In my opinion. Lucky to have seen television three times. Which is not band for glasgow , Scotland. I want by the re issue.
Thank you once again Michael. This man always puts the listener on the right track.
Well finally someone nailed it. Original intent!!! Back in the day the artist, the tracking engineer, the mix engineer, the producer and mastering engineer all new the final destination.
To argue whether vinyl or streaming is better at this point in time is nonsense. I have heard incredible streaming Miles at 192/24 through a nice dac and it's breath taking. The Led Zeppelin sounds like total dreck streaming but the vinyl sounds good, not stellar, but good. In both cases intent, ability and supervision.
The point is intent, and as you mention, supervision. Thanks for calling these rather important aspects out.
I enjoy your stories and have for years… keep them going.
I haven't heard the remaster but for anyone who was around when the original was released, the 'sound' is obviously part of the total artistic package. Changing it is sacrilege. I was 17 at the time the album was released and now at 63 I still have the sound in my head though I haven't listened to it for ages. Just checked what is currently available to stream and it sounds to me very much like how I remember the original sounding. Maybe I should dig out my LP collection from deep in the garage and buy a turntable after all. Then again, maybe not..
Thanks for vocalizing what I was thinking. I saw the interview where KG said he was unfamiliar with the album and that he cut the highs and boosted the lows and I thought "that won't sound right, it's supposed to be a bit bright." I spun Television's second album yesterday, and though slicker (and kinda boring) it had a bright sound too. My system leans warm. Music should not be remastered in a homogeneous manner.
Cheers, Tom
Michael, always tell your stories, they are like the icing on the cake.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Smith's reissues they did a few years ago
Personally I have always liked the early original blue notes, I think Rudy van gelder did a great job and I don't know to me when I hear that sound, it sounds like jazz. I mean whether or not that was what was intended, to me just that kind of thinner sound and you get kind of that recessed piano, like I said it just sounds like jazz to me, meaning that that's how a jazz recording should sound to me
Nice info. You are the one stop for those who need to be informed. Thx
Have you listened to the original 12inch at 45rpm released in the U.K.?
I understand your point, it sounds like fans have two great but different pressings to enjoy. I said the same thing about the Jimmy Page re-issues, who are we to say that Jimmy doesn't know what his "intentions" were, he was in charge then and he's in charge now.
Thank you for bringing some common sense to this record. People just can't just enjoy what is in front of them. They can't hear the music because of the Mastering!
Have you considered that many folks do not have an original and that they are rather pricey? Not everyone is buying this because they have an original and cant appreciate it. They are buying it because they dont have it and are also hoping it will be well done.
Have you considered that many folks do not have an original and that they are rather pricey? Not everyone is buying this because they have an original and cant appreciate it. They are buying it because they dont have it and are also hoping it will be well done.
Intense video, brutally honest. I enjoyed. Thanks for sharing. Greetings from Tokyo :-)
So glad to hear you on the re-issue thing, I hear so many that just miss the whole point of the original and all the magic is gone.
I might have to pick up the Rhino version then because I didn't want another copy that was marginally better than my current copy. A different interpretation I can get behind. If it's on the tape and they played it that way I think Kevin is right to make the cut that sounds the best to him.
Similar to “Raw Power” Iggy remix controversy. There the artist had his say on a do over. I still prefer the original.
When you said "He knew how to record rock" you showed a picture of Exile on Main St. I love that album, I love it's rough sound but would you call that good recorded?
The better your system the better it sounds and some of it sounds incredible. “Rocks Off” on the ORIGINAL ARTISAN SOUND mastering is amazing. Other masterings especially more recent smashed ones sound awful. I should post tracks on this channel from that record… when I bought but knew it sounded awful. As playback improved it untangled the congestion. Not saying it’s RL Led Zep II but …..
@@trackingangle929 thanks for your response! I’m a fan (I came over to Haarlem for your presentation last year) so that means a lot to me.
I agree the recent remasters sound horrible and coincidentally I did a video in which I compared some of the pressings of this album (ua-cam.com/video/t3BRD8Vpr2k/v-deo.htmlsi=zMfhkfuOhaVN7T92) with both a US Specialty, a French and a UK with the Artisan logo in the stampers. The Artisan mastering is awesome and as you suggested I just put on Rocks Off on from the US pressing. It sounds gorgeous.
I’ve heard some call the overall recording of Exile somewhat messy. For me a good recording is a recording that get’s the sound, the energy and the idea of what a band is about right. But certain reviewers or even mastering engineers have different opinions. For example I’ve read comments from Steve Hoffman on his forum that suggest he is not so enthusiastic about the recording quality of some The Beatles albums (like The White Album). I’m basically interested; what makes a good recording a good recording in your opinion?
We have to understand what the artists' intentions are and appreciate that, and we also love that in this time of high-end audio, we want the best sounding music that can be had.
Michael, I look forward to this new cut of Marquee Moon. You mentioned that the bass, drums, and Richard Lloyd's guitar sound better than the original. Perhaps Tom Verlaine got what he wanted in 1977 to the slight detriment of the other players? I always thought that the overwhelming genius of Television was the interplay of the co-lead guitars, at least it was when I saw them live. I'm not going to discard my original, but I welcome the change.
I tend to agree with your take. I absolutely love the first three King's X albums but the band doesn't speak highly of them because they're products of them AND their producer. I'm not willing to conclude that an album is what they wanted just because a first iteration exists.
And a case to your point of detrimental to other musicians, look at what Metallica did to Jason Newsted's bass on And Justice for All. Horrible mix but Hetfield defends it to this day.
Hey Mike . I have the white label promos of the first 2 Television albums. My only complaint would be the thin bottom sound. The guitars are incredible. I remember hearing you on WBCN around that time ? Those were the days! By the way I have your comedy album. Take care.
The Tom Waits debacle has been one of my most anticipated releases and my biggest disappointments.
Same.
Same
I found a Uk pressing of a Jazz LP from 1959 by Billy Strayhorn's Septet called " Cue for Saxophone " you heard of this Jazz band or this Album ? sounds amazing mono copy, I noticed from reading the back Lp notes that Billy Strayhorn was Duke Ellington's close musical associate , reminds me of your story of the red covered LP by Duke Ellington, you told, have that Lp too.
Strayhorn was a genius.
Glad to see a man passionate about something he believes in! One of your best rants ever, Michael 👍
Love to here your views on records & equipment although i could not afford the it i like the views.
Eventually there will be no originals and re-issues will be the legacy. Not dissimilar to the issue with all the new Beatles remixes, one day that's all that will be left. Agree 100%, re-issues should be faithful to the original intentions.
I've got a pristine original white label promo of Marquee Moon, and a later standard stock pressing, and I can tell you that to my ears the WLP sounds much better than the later pressing. Why is that? Is it just because the promos were among the first copies pressed, and therefore closer to the original "father" stamper than subsequent copies? I know that record stampers wear out and must be replaced, but would a record pressed close to the end of a stamper's life cycle effect the sound quality enough to tell the difference between a pressing that was maybe one of the first 10-50 pressings from a fresh stamper?
Interesting points. I am reminded of the debates that followed the release of the Iggy & The Stooges Raw Power remix in the mid-90s.
What about the 2015 Rhino reissue?
Good question, I assume much more like the original.
2012
I have the original, maybe I find room for a another version... Dunno?
A record by Tom that really got to me was, Flashlight... God I played that album to shreds...
Saw him live in Stockholm, amazing concert!
I would love to hear a rant about Iron Maidens two first albums! (My first frisbee experience was with Killers, although it's still was with Paul DiAnno...)
And I would love to dive down in to studio live recordings compared to the ones "mixed up"...
Thanks for your comments. My order of this record has just been dispatched and I will compare. BTW, what about Adventure, an album panned by most critics but I love it. Hopefully one day, the right people will take charge and remaster it, not forgetting their last self-titled album which seems to have been forgotten by all.
Not forgotten by all. I like the third album from 1992 on Capitol.
The 1992 LP is another masterpiece in my opinion.
Thanks for the review! As for original intent...I totally agree - original intent is important! I think of Iggy's super-hot "remix" of the Stooges' Raw Power, and Giles Martin's "remasters"...they miss the mark completely.
Michael, I wish you would throw up some comparison samples. Would be nice to hear what you are telling us.
respect. in what u say. i love u rants. keep them up
thank u micheal
I have no interest in Television, but always appreciate Mr Fremmer’s takes. My own two cents; the red and blue Beatle remasters were a disaster.
Rather than reissue those, they should service the fans and repress the 2014 mono reissues.
Richard Lloyd wrote that Andy Johns was totally out of it when recording this album and showing up late and trying to give Television a John Bonham drum sound. So it was probably Tom Verlaine and Richard Lloyd were more responsible for getting the original sound. From Lloyd: "Still, for the next two or three days, Andy would mutter things like, 'Oh, so, this is some kind of New York thing. You want to sound bad like The Velvet Underground. You want to sound crap like The Stooges or something. I see. Well, we could do that, but you have to remember I’m putting my name on it…'”
According to Discogs there were 27 vinyl pressings of Marquee Moon in 1977. Which of those "original pressings" is the one preferred by Verlaine? There is no way they're all equal.
There are 21 variations listed, not 27 but the key is in the credits under each. The Sterling Sound credit is under most of them. That is the one.
@trackingangle929 thank you for your reply.
I don't know your history I found you by searching for reviews of the Rhino reissue. I think this us a great opportunity for you to do a comparison/ contrast of an early Sterling pressing and the Rhino reissue. I would be interested in you breaking down each version specifically rather than posting a fairly cryptic message of generalities. If nothing else I think Kevin Gray deserves it based on his body of work, which is unquestionably stellar. Regardless, I'm looking forward to my Rhino copy so I can compare it to my brother's radio promo.
Thank you for this great entertainment to the la-di-da point of la raison d‘etre of rockmusic. Greets from La-Da-Di.
Very interesting as always. Let’s retire the word, “rant” and uphold the value of honest, informed and intelligently shared criticism.
Spread the Word!!!!
'supposed to sound like' is what I'm interested in 😎
Dude, Rants don’t belong in a playlist. Looking forward to more music.
Your background audio seems to have picked up the person you're holding hostage banging a message to be set free Michael....🤔
probably one or more of the 4 dogs upstairs
He got those dogs just to annoy me.
I thought someone in my house was banging stuff
The fact that the new Marquee Moon offers a different take than my original copy makes the new one worth buying as far as I am concerned. Generally I am not interested in buying copies of albums I already own even if it's a sonic upgrade as I doubt I could honestly tell the difference.
Has anyone compared the 2012 reissue with the original?
I did a comparison of several versions, here's my post from another site:
Yesterday I finally had the time to do my own comparison between an original first U.S press, the 2012 Rhino Chris Bellman cut, the 2018 Rhino Blue Vinyl Ian Sefchik cut, and the new 2024 Rhino Kevin Grey Rhino cut. I used the lead track (and my favorite) See No Evil.
Of the reissues the Chris Bellman came closest to the sound of my original but tamed the highs so there was less of that brash, hot, reverb quality found on the original. But that made the Bellman cut's sound stage a bit smaller, though I didn't find that objectionable. In it's favor was better bass than the original cut for which I have to use EQ to get a pleasing amount.
The 2018 Ian Sefchick cut is a different sound, much heavier on the bass, really driving in a way that suits the music. He's tamed the brash high end, so those who hate bright sound may be amenable to this version, however the vocals are a bit recessed. On the down side it's a denser cut overall, you're not going to hear the detail and bass separation like the new Kevin Grey version.
As for the new Kevin Grey cut, I really like it a lot. Despite being the "audiophile " version of this classic record, I've no problem with hearing the increased detail and nuances of the playing , particularly the bass and drums. Unlike some of MoFi's remasters which make well known recordings sound alien to me, this is still very much the Marquee Moon I've loved since I first bought my copy in January 1978, now with a clarity I've never had the pleasure of experiencing before, it's a keeper and likely the version I'll play most from now on.
@@popofthebop
Cheers, much appreciated 👍
I believe some 70s-80s Sterling cut vinyl have sharp sound due to some exclusive electronic they had and Greg Calbi work. i call it a knive sound . this sound is also on the original Talking Heads - Remain In Light. the KG rhino RIL has a more polite sound
Interestingly, Greg told me he has no recollection of mastering that record. He thinks Ted Jensen may have done it. I'm checking...
This is roughly how I felt about the Cars self-titled reissue. I mean, it's insane to think at the height of the American music recording boom of the late seventies, with all the GIANTS that were working in the field at the time--producing, mixing, mastering, engineering, etc--that these artists did not get the final product that they were after. I mean come on. Yes, there is many times when reissues are needed and much warranted. But if we're honest, we have to see the record business gouging us vinyl enthusiasts with a plethora of unneeded reissues that are bastardizing the original recordings in the original artist's vision!
100% Pete Townsend of all people, well said Michael
Couldn't agree more. Audiophile remasters of punk records!
Great video
Always questioned that “artist’s intention” claim; contentious, at best. Afterall, is the final product always in hands of the artist or, engineers/producers?
That depends of course on many factors. Here Tom Verlaine was co-producer and they spent $$$ for the best and the tape obviously sounded really good and KG went with that but I think the original is what TV wanted.
Now this is interesting. My US original (7E-1098 A/B SP RE Sterling) always, to my ears, sounded horribly BRIGHT and bass shy. Had always considered trying another pressing. But this is how it's supposed to sound huh? Will listen again since my TT/arm/cartridge are all improved since last time. Thanks, Mike.
Embrace the upper midrange crunch delight.
It does sound exactly as you described. I didn’t say otherwise so I don’t understand your comment! My point was that that’s what was intended like it or not and that Kevin’s cut sounds better!
@@trackingangle929 To be clear, MY point was that your insight about the intention has enabled me to embrace the original with new ears, and thank you for that. I haven't just got a shit pressing!
Also, in light of reading about the recording/production (no compression, live in the studio, partly written on the hoof...) it makes so much more sense now.
Great and important video.
very informative . Don't be afraid of telling stories. La-di-da.
Good video Michael & spot on. To think that when you’re gone….there will be…..hmmmm, let’s see…..ummmm….the other 2 Michaels!😩…Nooooooo! One has a wealth of information & insight to give 🫤 & the other has a really big record collection.😕
Haha! I’m not going anywhere any time soon much to the disappointment of some-especially the obsessed.
Thank you MF. i came to this after watching others speaking about this Lp and i find your perspective very enlightening.
I think this Rhino re-issue is what I would prefer to hear. So, I guess that's worth something. To ME, anyway.
Of course! I wasn’t suggesting otherwise. This was a “think piece” not a do as I say piece!
Darko has hinted at this on recent reissues where the dynamic range is compressed for some illogical reason and calling it a remaster ends up being a misapplication of the word. Remastering for unwanted noise is one thing, but changing the dynamic range and tonal quality is just a disservice to the original recording. And I suspect some of these remasters are mostly the result of labels doing cash grabs because they can charge 2x or 3x the value for a bad vinyl repress of the masters they own without artist by-in or approval.
For some artists' recordings in the mid 80s and 90s where a release was only on CD, your best hope is to find the original CD vs a new 'vinyl remaster' where they screw it up with dynamic range compression and making it "louder". I compare my late 80s CDs along side earlier vinyl and they're noticeably quieter than today's releases.
Truth has impact..
Like an impacted Bowel. Lol
Love your videos...
Superb!
I don’t have the Rhino only a uk original but I totally get what you’re talking about Michael. Many rock albums are sonic art rather than flat reproductions of the instruments in the studio unlike much acoustic music including older jazz, the mastering was part of the product and it’s what we know in our heads and hearts and to modernise it to sound ‘better’ is cultural vandalism imo. KG is a great engineer and as you say, with the curation of Joe does a great job in revealing what’s on the master tape without killing the music and performance but if you don’t ‘get’ the music it’s a crapshoot. Thankfully Bernie and Chris understand artists like Hendrix and Neil Young and can better the originals. It’s thanks also to some like you that knows all of this that can call it out and save us wasting our £/$ on inappropriate releases and a lot of shite ones too. Cheers mate.
I felt the same way about the Rhino Cars release. It sounds "hi-fi", but changed some of the impact of the guitars.
It sure did. It is now a rock album, not a pop album. Both versions are excellent.
The Cars album benefitted from Kevin's mastering in every regard, I can see how Marquee Moon would be a little more devicive.
I'd be curious to know what the surviving members of Television think about the re-release of Marquee Moon think. In any event any record is simply a document of something that was done at that moment in time. Who knows what it would sound like a week, or month, or year later. One can debate all the technical shit until they turn blue ( who in god's name knows what Raw Power by the the Stooges SHOULD sound like) . At the end of the day Marquee Moon in it's original form is an amazing work of art.
Maybe Kevin Gray was told to cut a hi-fidelity version and he delivered what his client wanted?
I suspect he wasn’t given any instructions. I could find out.
I would love to know the backstory. I have to say that it’s tempting to buy it just to hear it run through Kevin’s set up.
Quite. Kevin Gray is paid to do a job not debate or argue artistic merit.
It is fair to imagine and ask what would Tom Verlaine think of this new cut, since he co produced the album. But we can actually ask Richard Lloyd what he thinks, since he is still with us and was a major contributor to this record.
I don’t think the new version is so very different than the OG. KG slightly softened the edgy high end that was always a bit problematic imho
Fair point Mazzy.
Micheal, I guess your next mission if you accept, is to wake up the industry to return to ways of old and to care about the records they are producing. It’s about the music, right?
I'm trying! And making enemies as I go.
Yup that’s for sure but don’t give up! Thank you for your passion❤
Someone needs to start a new "audiophile" reissue label, that uses, or at least tries to faithfully replicate, the original mixes and mastering, but just pressed on super low noise quality vinyl. In almost every instance I can think of, I'd prefer my original pressings to reissues, if they just weren't so damn noisy.
for me, in this particular case, it's not either/or, but as well as. As I feel old and experienced enough to appreciate the original, I take the liberty and enjoy the alternative re-issue version as well. In the other cases you have mentionend, I am totally with you critizising and refusing those re-issues. I am also not the biggest fan of Giles Martin's work on the Beatles' Red and Blue albums. But that's a different story.
They said they reduced the mids, and upped the bass a little in the reissue.
The question is what did Sterling do to the tape when it was first mastered. Clearly a lot more!
Perhaps. But when comparing what we got to hear on the original pressing, and this new one, we know for sure they did some EQing. They admitted as much when interviewed (sorry don't have a link, but it's on UA-cam). So, it's not going to sound like the original we got.....@@trackingangle929
guess i will stick with original promo copy of marquee moon still in near mint shape. regarding the who and townshend solo stuff it could be that pete really coundnt' be bothered anymore and i am pretty sure his hearing is shot anyway,
Pete Townsend has no hearing left.
Having him judge sound quality is a mistake.
Look, I like the album; but just like another notable album of the period, Big Star, I didn’t discover it on release but much later in my musical journey. I now have a couple different masterings of each in my collection and I’m glad I have them and enjoy them all, but I don’t get religious about later remixes/remasterings and their reimagining of artistic vision (maybe I would feel differently about Bowie or the Beatles). As Mr Fremer has often stated, if you like it, buy it, if you don’t, don’t.
Exactly. I’m not here to tell anyone what to like or buy. This was a “think piece” designed to elicit viewer opinions. They’ve been fascinating!
I love it and too true - carry on ranting
The early Top acts at CBGB’s were to rock what the Impressionists were to the Art Schools of France in the late 1800’s.
The acts pretty much couldn’t give away their records (although most are still available today) during their tenure much like the “Fauves” couldn’t sell their paintings.
Today Renoir, Manet, Monet and the rest of the punk painting scene are still selling out showings and Debbie Boone is forgotten by everyone except the academics.
Interesting take on early NY Punk, but unlike bourgeois Paris of the 1880s once the record companies saw there was a buck to be made they jumped on bands like Blondie and Talking Heads. Also bands like the The Cramps, Television, Suicide, Mink de Ville, Contortions already had a a rabid audience and were very well regarded critically in publications in the Village Voice, Punk Magazine, and East Village Eye. Unlike the painters, the Punks didn't need or even seek mainstream approval. In fact in the case of the Sex Pistols negative press was the best press!
I love my OG Marquee Moon....I also love my OG Little Johnny Jewell 45...which is minimalist to the MAX (pun intended).........off subject, I hope they don"t mess with ROADRUNNER by Jonathan Richman !!
❤👍🏼
Marquee Moon is a well recorded album and because of it i followed tom verlaine´s career and marque moon was so good sounding that my question is ,how would they increase the original producing, i never heard the new edition but it´s one of those things ,today all records sound not bad but they come filled with dirt as it never happened when buying a new record till mid 90´s , that´s when i started to buy more cds, i bought them after but i had some problems in the flow of money because of the country where i live, Portugal ,very nice places to visit but to one live there i felt like living in Juda´s ass, i still live in the city i was born but i lived and worked in diferent continents and also european countries mostly the netherlands, but i was supposed to be retired but they asked me to work as a independent worker after working the most years possible as a civil servant in agricultural area related with weather and study of fruits and biological samples to watch the possibilities of plagues or deseases ,mainly olive trees ,Vines and oranje tree fields, and i prefer to be active than be at home and my mind goes to adictions of the past and having money is not a problem for me, but i still have friends who own hi-fi and music stores and i´ve been testing a lot of new turntables and cartridges who in my opinion is stealing from the people, i never had heard such bad sound coming from 1.000€ turntable and Ortofon that in the past meaned quality today till more than 1.000€ cartridges are all garbage, my old and cheapest turntables with original cartridges and stylus sound better than a expensive turntable and i use to improve their sound by buying better cartridges and now i have old and still unused cartridges and stylus from the past , that sound a lot better and have several more hours of listening ,the first modern cartridge i bought i looked to the stylus and said to the seller"the styluis seems to be missing a big part of it " to which he replied , "No , now they make them like that"so i guess even not having listened to the so called improved marquee moon i can say it doesn´t surprise me of having a worst sound, well having hearing you till thje end im do understand what have they done but as i said , a record with perfect sound it can be imp'roved by changing all instruments sound, about the who i bought the Lp´s as they came out and they sound really good i only can compare it with the cd version ,and in cds most of old records are sounding totally diferent from what was played in the record when released, yesterday i put to play eric burdon and the animals ,to hear it because i didn´t hear it for decades and it ´s the ...don´t remenber now but it as the "...last clean shirt on my brother bill" i remenber having a very clean sound for the time being ,i don´t even know if it was re-released or the cd version but still sounds amazing as others ,so what about several remasterings they have done, steely dan i only have the first can´t buy a thrill and later pretzel logic and without even hearing it i bought gaucho they were well produced, and still sound better than other new bands releases, as pink floyd that i´m tired of it but maybe because they never played on the radio or whatever i can still listen to More O.S.T. another barbet schroader movie about the hippie scene, this one in Ibiza , i went there often when it was a island with a village of fisherman and young people lived there free of all, so i do like Ibiza bar and the nile song,it´s hard rock led zeppelin what?no,pink floyd did it perfect and it still sounds great, maybe you know it too but i remenber listening in Beja, Portugal a guy withnthe air cutted and beard singing a whiter shade of pale ,and remenber ,this in late 90´s friends saying "this guy plays very well procul harum"well it was it´s vocalist playing in a modern synthetiser but he was there with the violent femmes and gary brooker was there playing keyboards but in the intermission he played the song almost nobody was watching him playing live and perfect this lçate 70´s song , try to hear the remaster of this song made a few years ago ,it´s pure nonsense it doesn´t sound like procul harum and i was never a fan of the band but have a doble single and the original single when the song was released it´s not that good but that is the sound on everyones minds , i don´t know if you saw the footage of the rolling stones making the exile on main street album ,well the footage is hilarious and i was told that they7 record a song already in the U.S. that was the first single and they did something to endless non sense recordings they made on a big house in the south of france, so it´s funny to see the footage but what came out of there wasn´t what we know today as Exile on main street, i could be writting here for a long time but let´s stay here, and to end no reissue of maqrquee moon would sound better than the original release, about the beatles,i grew up listening to them and some years ago i was ofered the beatles box in stereo in cd ,whati´ve listen there doesn´t sound to me as what the Beatles sounded, first in stereo i have trhe two compilations ,the red and the blue doble albums and it´s enough , the bass no one today listen´s to the way paul mcartney played in their original abums ,let´s say starting in rubber soul ,he played in that hofner bass like he was playing guitar ,it had a very strange sound but efective , where is that today nothing on the cds sound like the beatles , nothing at all