Can You Shoot An Attacker In the Back?: Into the Fray Episode 61
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- Опубліковано 16 жов 2024
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Can you shoot an attacker in the back? Well, If the only option you have to stop a deadly threat is to shoot someone in the back, do it. But be ready to explain exactly why it was the only thing you could do under those circumstance to stop an imminent deadly threat. As with any use of deadly force, you need to be 100 percent certain of your actions. If the only course of action is to shoot someone from behind then you need to take that action to stop the threat.
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“If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.”
John Steinbeck
+MrApple
what the F**K is a fair fight if you are attacked first
Dan Bohlmann
Fighting with any sense of civility or outdated notion of fairness. If you are fighting you are most likely fighting for your life and should therefore fight like a wild animal until the threat stops completely.
Steinbeck 🫡
Love the way you put things. They need to call you no BS Kevin
Say it mean it and get done with it. Another fine video. Thank You for your time
Kevin another good video.
Very enlightening.
Very good video, Thank you.
You guys at the USCCA are great. I'm getting a membership to your organization asap.
Another tell it like it is, keep up the great work
Thank you! That sounds like genuinely wise direction.
To D Audit, you're right. I'm going to have to change my mindset. It would be the worst time to be unsure about what you're going to do next. Thanks for enlightening me.
Kevin can do great short videos full of info and lessons on self defense. Thanks KM.
Thank you for watching, Jose!
I’ve learned so much from your videos bro. Thanks.
"Be certain of your target and what is beyond it." That's 1 of the Cardinal Rules of Firearms Safety.
However, in the LAW there is this defense called "mistake of fact." It's the basis of the "acted in good faith" argument. The standard of "reasonableness" applies to this as well. In short, if a reasonable person in your situation would likely have interpreted the situation the way you did and acted in a similar manner if they were able, then an error may not be a crime. LEOs rely pretty heavily on this legal argument. But I have a problem with the way this is taught in academies and translated to the street.
Most LE training runs on the premise that guy with gun = bad guy who must be stopped. Virtually all LE firearms training goes: GUN! Disarm or neutralize the person with gun immediately. "Drop the weapon!" BANG! You might get "Drop the weapon" repeated 3 times before the BANG. Here's the rub...
"Bad guy with gun" might be the victim. Might be an off duty or undercover LEO. Might be a Good Samaritan intervening in a brutal felony. HOW DOES THE COP KNOW? How can he/she be "certain of the target" when they just rolled up? As an armed citizen, how can YOU? Cops get paid and carry a commission to take such risks. They have a bit of immunity that you don't because of it. They are SUPPOSED to keep the peace, and you aren't supposed to disturb it unless you absolutely must - as a last resort. The two-way range is a LOT messier, more chaotic, and confusing than the one-way range.
In my opinion, the paradigm in LE that gun = bad guy = neutralize the threat is outdated in the age of widespread civilian carry (which also used to be the norm prior to the 1930s). A little more Andy Griffith and a little less RoboCop would probably be a great idea. It's just a matter of time until police end up shooting an armed school teacher responding to an "active shooter at the school" call. Mark my words!
Possibly to definitely "legit" shoots in the back:
Best and safest shot in a defense of others shooting (if you're 15 feet down the candy aisle behind the guy robbing a convenience store at gunpoint, for example).
Bad guy turns away as you pull the trigger (people don't usually stand still while you take careful aim).
TRAINED or SMART bad guy tries to mask his pocket or Mexican carry draw by turning away (also happens with some predictability).
Bad guy turns his back to initiate sucker punch (VERY common "street" tactic, but will only happen from just beyond arm's reach to grappling distance).
A couple of years ago, a stranger suddenly parked on the street behind our house and quickly approached my wife who was working in the garden. I could see this from my desk in the sun room. I quietly went to the door with my Sig 9mm in my hand in the pocket on my cargo shorts. She was still unaware he was there (wearing ear buds and a big sun hat on her knees weeding) until he spoke. I opened the door as she stood up and started telling him to back up and get out of her yard. He actually moved TOWARD her in response. He was wearing a jacket and a big guy. I couldn't see his hands. My wife raised her arms and pointed a garden spade at him as she barked for him to get back. I stepped to 50% cover behind brick wall and drew the pistol. Had he made any sort of sudden or aggressive move from there on, I would have shot him in the back at least 3 times. Fortunately, he raised his hands as if to surrender and began backing up and apologizing for startling her. Then he saw me in his peripheral vision as he turned. I chased him to his car, pistol in one hand pointed straight down at my side. Real life is messier than simulators and shooting ranges. FYI, my wife is a retired fed LEO and was in asset protection at the local Walmart at the time. She is always at risk of retaliation.
Well said sir.
Love this training.
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck." John Steinbeck
No argument from me Kevin (at least on this, LOL) for an active shooter. Great video!
I wonder about multiple assailants. Let's say 3-5 guys are coming at you. Once you shoot the first one, the others are going to run for cover and/or concealment. Once they reach cover/concealment, they're better positioned to maneuver against you. Do you allow the threat(s) to run for cover or do you shoot them in the back before they get there? If you let them reach cover, you have potentially allowed a bad situation to get even worse and you have maybe 1-2 seconds (if that) to run the mental "threat-not a threat" calculations on multiple targets-are they maneuvering against me or are they just running for their lives. And the fact is, if you have to take a second or two run that calculation on multiple targets, you're already set up for failure. We train so we don't have to think because when bullets are flying, we can't think. All we can do is fall back on our training. If we try to interrupt that training with thought, we put ourselves at a disadvantage. I think about this, because the one time I had to pull my gun, there were 3 of them and it was an ambush in every sense of the word.
very good points
Sir will you trust your life and carry as edc the taurus pt 111? I saw your episode on that gun that you reviewed thanks because i intend buying one
A show I like, but has terrible self defense lessons, is "The Rifleman".
Just saw episode where there was a guy from the Sheriff's past spotted in a nearby town. It freaked out the sheriff so bad he took to being a drunk.
The rifleman's solution was to tell the gunslinger where to find the sheriff so the the sheriff had a chance to "face his demons", so to speak.
In the end, unlike most shows, there was no gun fight, the sheriff stood up to the guy and the guy backed off.
The line at the end of the show was the sheriff asking the rifleman something like, "so, you were out there the whole time with your rifle?"
And the rifleman said, "well, I figured it was even money that he would kill you, but that doesn't mean I was gonna let him get away after".
Kind of a harsh way to learn a lesson, lol.
I love the Rifleman show but I know it is just a show. I do not base my decisions on TV shows. I do not carry guns to kill people. I only carry guns to stop a threat. My wife and I ALWAYS WEAR OUR SEAT BELTS AND ALWAYS CARRY OUR GUNS.
No discussion of over-penetration? Hostage situation, soft target, crowded environment... In my personal opinion that is something which should be considered in everyone's OODA loop. It seems especially relevant to the civilian world scenario presented here.
I enjoy your videos. Keep up the good work, I'm glad the USCCA was created.
I enjoy them too, but I'd like to have heard some detail about how sometimes it's difficult to tell who is the bad guy and who is the good. That should have been addressed better. Sometimes these videos seem to assume the viewer is more knowledgeable and more responsible than may be the case.
You better be 100% sure who's the bad guy. My brother in law is a retired under cover cop.
He grew a nasty looking beard and wore "thug like" attire when working. If you saw him pointing a gun , you would likely assume he was the bad guy.
Yes. This was a good video, but I'd like to have seen that point made with a little more detail than "be 100% sure." If you didn't see the beginning of the incident, it could be difficult to tell who's the bad guy and who's the good guy.
The guy with the gun could be another CCW citizen drawn on the bad guy.
The bad guys will always tell you they are good guys
Good point. If they point a gun at me I am shooting.
Bubba Blackmon There was a cop got killed by friendly fire like your brother
So true, if I came on a scene after it started, how would I know.
If that suspect is displaying imminent threat toward my wife and doesn’t know I’m there, I’m going to protect her with any resources needed!
If the threat is still imminent then you have every right to defend your wifes life, Deril!
USCCA absolutely, and my Marine Corp training will kick in too. (Without apology too I might add)
I will stop the threat in its tracks. My sidearm comes out in defense of life only, no exceptions. It’s a point of situational awareness (or as I have called it - personal radar) , threat assessment and having a plan.
I have martial arts and a sidearm, as of Friday, pepper spray too.
If I am ever (God forbid) forced to take a life, it will be solely due to that shooters actions. I train to avoid that situation as much as possible and make sure I have the tools to hopefully NEVER have to pull my weapon.
Make no mistake, if needed, I’ve got zero issues with pulling and using my firearm. I’ll able to sit down with my attorney and show him / her the steps I’ve taken to avoid that. I’ll be able to demonstrate how I had no other choice.
That’s why I joined USCCA and support it 100%
@@DerilVStubenrod spoken like a man who never bought the insurance policy on the little lady!
In your scenario you are correct, however you didn't address the issue of shooting a fleeing bad guy in the back. That's where this issue becomes a problem.
This a intensive video.
Kevin,
I am curious to know what your CCW is?
Thanks,
H
Just landed on your site and am very impressesd with its content. Question: what if you come upon a man holding a gun on someone else, and you come up behind them, how do you know that the good guy isn't the guy with the guns? could be another concealed carry is protecting himself from a would-be attacker. could be if you shoot him in the back you don't allow him the chance to explain if this is the case. Is this a case of situational awareness? What would the court say if you shot the wrong guy? Frank from oregon
You must me 100% sure that the man holding the weapon is the bad guy. If you have any doubt as to whether he is the bad guy in the situation, DO NOT SHOOT. If you did happen to shoot the man with the weapon and he was actually the good guy in the situation, you'd be charged with murder, no questions asked.
me personally if I'm in doubt I would give a verbal warning if I was unsure who was who. The guy with a gun could also be an off duty cop effecting a lawful arrest of a crime that occurred in his presence. But that's why it was stressed, always know who the bad guy is before you intervene
What would a court say?
No telling!! That's why you need to be extra sure. Be extremely reluctant to intervene if you didn't see the situation develop.
I agree shooting at the back
If you shoot anyone in the back, the prosecutor can and will say you were not in immediate fear of your life since he wasn't even facing you, how could he hurt you
By grabbing a gun to use against you...
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck." John Steinbeck.
In Michigan (Detroit), I've seen someone who was "walking away" but was shooting backwards with his gun under his armpit, shooting randomly. It's as if he figured the back shooting law would protect him, what about in that situation?
I understood everything you said about shooting a bad guy in the back if he is a threat to someone and I'm behind him then shoot but what about just you and a bad guy and you pull a gun then the bad guy turns around and runs away and you shoot him in the back then that would be illegal then correct? Cause he's no longer a threat to you?
mikelime514 yes..100% correct. its no longer an immediate threat, and you have no right to employ deadly force. We shoot to stop the threat, not to kill someone.
magius231 Ok awesome thanks for answering my question. You know you hear so many different things it's hard to beileve anything these days. I kind of figure it was illegal cause I heard about it but just wanted to make sure. Thanks again!!
I carry to try and protect myself and my family. Everyone else is on their own. If you don't want to carry, that's your business.
I agree. I'm not a sheepdog, and I disagree with the "sheepdog" mentality. My job is to keep myself, and my loved ones safe. Why would I put my own life in danger and get involved in a shooting situation, potentially leaving my kids without a father. You do you, but that's my 2c.
You better have very good lawyer for this scenario.
FWIW, John Wayne did shoot someone in the back in the movie "Stagecoach". See if you can find it.
Just tell that to the cop in Atlanta two weeks ago!!!!!
If they're headed toward my kids room, I will mag dump a guy in the back.
For real. Maybe 2.
There has been a few incidents where a "bad" guy had his gun drawn on the "good" guy, and unfortunately it was a fellow officer who shot the bad guy in the back and the bad guy turned out to be a cop doing his job undercover, be ABSOLUTELY sure you know whats going on BEFORE you ride in to save the day with a bullet to the head. Situational awareness and situation awareness. Things are NOT always what they appear to be..so take your time and make the best possible decision.
"Be certain of your target and what is beyond it." It's one of the basic tenets of firearms safety. Personally, I modify it when teaching to: be certain of your target and everything in your line of fire. Then I explain that means between you and the target and beyond the target. But in this scenario, the point is the definition of CERTAIN. If you aren't certain, don't shoot! I'll deal with the rest of that in another comment.
Right on point...thank you
Well, I guess I'll take your word for it,but it just doesn't feel right!
Rick Palluck Please look at your statement again. I agree with Kevin, but I knew that to be true before watching his vid. If your response to any video with this level of importance is kinda sorta I guess so, then do your research and get firm on your stance. Even if you come down on the opposite side, your decision to pull a weapon or not is life changing for you and everyone around you. If your decision to run away from a bad guy threatening good guys at any angle, so be it. You will have to live with that, just as I would pull my weapon and drop a guy who poses an immediate threat to innocents regardless of back front or side angle. I would have to live with my decision also. If you have made the decision to carry, please take your opinions more seriously.
The problem isn't the people who're knowledgeable about this area, the problem is the people who aren't knowledgeable and have replaced real knowledge with opinion and Hollywood moralism.
The Defenders Team Hollywood has no morals, if it did they would allow themselves to be used as the propaganda machine they are today. Any totalitarian leaders in history would give their right arm for such a well oiled machine.
James York Thumbs up to that. But it isn't totalitarian leader who have the most influence on Hollywood productions, it's the very people who replace knowledge of the subject with opinion and false moralism.
I you don't HAVE to shoot, don't. The ONLY reason to shoot in the back is if they're DIRECTLY endangering someone's life.
Actually, theres another reason.... you can be the only person there, just you and a threatening person. You may point at the FRONT, and they can turn their back to you as youre pulling the trigger. Even the great Masaad Ayoob has defended this in court and he explains how it can happen to even highly trained persons.
Depends on why they turned around
So what if that bullet travels threw the bad guy and hits the good guy and kills them as well for some odd reason? What kind of situation would you be in then?
This Thanksgiving on the news was about the police shooting and killing a 21 year old man at a mall. The 21 year man had a permit to carry a concealed weapon. The police later admitted they shot the wrong person. I don't know all the details, but should the 21 year have done to keep from being shot by the police? That really makes me nervous know that the police would shoot first and ask later.
If they turn around to grab a weapon?
Yes
What if I got rob and the robber is walking away then I pull out my gun and try to call him then he turns back and shot him is that still illegal?
He would be no longer be a threat if he is walking away.
Great video, but please, at least give a few details about how difficult it may be to tell a good guy from a bad guy. "Be 100% sure", without discussing how, might not be enough caution for some of your viewers!
OMG, why is this even a topic that people need to ask, and even more so, why does it need to be explained by "experts".
Would you shoot someone in the back? Well, it is the safest way.
If you find yourself in a fair fight your tactics suck.
Another scenario would be if the bad guy/girl had their back to you because they were reaching for or grabbing a weapon behind them.
What would the innocent person do if they knew there was a weapon hiding over there, but they are unsure if the bad guy knew this or not. Then what...?
Or if after they just finished raping you they heard your kid cry and went toward the kids bedroom do you have a right to shoot them in the back.
but his back was to me !
This is an interesting scenario. How can you be sure that the guy with the gun is not an undercover cop trying to arrest a bad guy? Making the wrong choice could have very bad consequences.
He said if you were absolutely certain who the bad guy and good guy was, then you should take the shot. Pretty sure if an under cover cop was arresting somebody he wouldn't have to have his gun out, and even if he did it wouldn't be in a public place.
+jacobdot456 undercovers cops on duty will have there badges out some where on there belt or upper body some where like chain badge holder. Yeah and under cover cop can have his gun out on while trying to make an arrest. Why would undercover cop not pull his gun in Public place? that cop has there badge out for that reason so people can know they are A cop DUH!!!!
I understood everything you said but correct me if I'm wrong if they're running away you can't shoot them in the back reason being is that they don't pose a threat anymore
313jizz Depends. Are they armed? Can you be reasonably certain they plan to hurt someone else? Are they retreating for cover so they can safely return fire?
Personally, If I could escape at that point, I would escape rather than shoot. If society wants me to be a hero, they need to skew the law more in my favor, otherwise, they can live with the consequences. JMO.
But, I also, to myself, call that the "Spiderman scenario". Before that character becomes a vigilante, he witnesses a robbery but does nothing to stop it. Later that same robber kills his uncle, who is also his legal guardian. He has to live with that.
If the guy has commited a violent deadly or life threatening act and still has the means of doing the same to others while running away he legally is still considered a threat. You are good to shoot. You will be taken in for questioning and your weapon seized until the investigation is complete. Been LEO for 25 years and this was what I was taught through the years. I suggest you always carry and be ready to act.
cigarsarge1 that may work for LEO's but average citizens do not generally have this right. If the threat is no longer immediately present, you do not have a right to shoot, period. the danger MUST be immediate, or your going to find yourself at the wrong end of a manslaughter charge.
+313jizz It would be legal at least if that person or persons are shooting back at you while they have there back faceing you. while running away.
sounds reasonable enough to me
isn't it illegal to shoot someone in the back?
Look up the recent police involved shooting in Zion Illinois. Suspect was shot twice in the back and they haven't decided if they are going to criminally charge the officer yet. Never looks good when someone takes a few in the back but I agree it's justified in some cases.
In many states, you are not allowed to shoot someone because you came across a situation. You are not a LEO.
I thought the first rule of a gun fight, is to bring a GUN!
A man robs a restaurant. No one is killed. The robber is holding the gun rather sloppily but has shown no true intent to use the gun. While walking out a man pulls his gun from the seat and kills the robber. Is that legal?
NEVER shoot someone in the back, NEVER.
STEVE P Even if he is on top of someone you care about, about to stab them? or some other violent scenario that you could stop (without hitting an innocent person)?
It's what Bronn would do !
You mean like Bronn from Game of Thrones? This is a weird place to mention him lol.
Not really...Bronn is going to live....he does not fight with "honor"....the video is about shooting someone in the back...which I could completely see Bronn doing......if you watch the show..look at his latest scene with Podrick...before that...look at his battle when he championed for Tyrion...
misterjosephfloyd
I meant its a weird place as in its a non Game of Thrones video guy :p
I know what you mean tho...it does match his character...shooting someone in the back.
no b.s. Kevin get that tattooed on your neck
Unless the guy was shooting at someone else, you shouldn't shoot them in the back
Just remember Rule No. 1, ....
You'd shoot someone in the back? It is the safest way.