1/13/2015 I worked at a convenience store three armed men came in late one night.And they began shooting and I fired back killed 2 the 3rd one ran away. The distance was Around 10 feet. I didn’t have time to look at my sites. I practiced point shooting at that distance twice a month. Practice saved my life.
I looked you up. If you really are Brad Keeling, I’m glad you made it. You did an outstanding job. Seems odd they went after the other two for murder but I guess they were more responsible for the two men dying than anyone else, other than the two men themselves. Did your gun get taken away forever?
@@derrickrr5516 When you commit armed robbery any deaths that happen because of the incident are legally your fault. You could be the getaway driver, never enter the store or touch a weapon and be charged for murder if your accomplices kill someone, someone has a heart attack, ect.
Mr. Ron, ( gun store owner, cowboy action. Korean Veteren, One of our founding fathers of or county gun range) said don't put anything on it that will slow it down and just look at the back of the gun.
Glad you made it. Also, I think you will agree with me that under that type of threat the brain will not let you close one eye, and the pupils dilate due to adrenal stress making it impossible to focus on something close to your face such as the sights on the gun. 100% in agreement with you that training point shooting is what saved your life.
Retired LEO here. Very good video. In about 1979-80 I was on the DPS range in Austin, Tx listening to Reeves Jungkind, the DPS instructor. He talked about the "typical" gunfight. I'll always remember that he mentioned a living room, a convenience store or even a lawn as the most likely place to be in a gunfight. Since then, from Jeff Cooper to many others throughout my 20 years it was brought home again and again. Think of the size of a room, anything from 5 to 20 feet. It will happen fast and violently and you may not be "gun in hand" when it starts. That's what most of my training focused on. Yeah, I shot some at 25yds and 15yds. But I wore it out at 10 yds and less. Your data seems to support that. Again, thanks for a very good video. Now the old man will shut up...but remember, I made to be an old man.
Thank you Mr DeHart, I found your offering to the discussion both informative and interesting👍 In addition Thank you for your service and congrats on your determination to retire to your family 🙏👏🇺🇸💥
The overwhelming majority of lethal assaults are up close and personal - within a few feet. I know. A couple of teenagers attempted to rob me while I was leaving a liquor store parking lot pay phone at Manchester and Stanford in Los Angeles in 1973. I turned. They were there. One of them barked, "Give it up." I stupidly put my fists up expecting a fistfight. One of them pulled out a gun and shot me in the chest (it sounded like a firecracker). I looked down and saw a red dot in the vicinity of my heart. They ran off. I drove myself to Martin Luther King Hospital and woke up two days later in ICU. They had to cut me open to remove the bullet. I've carried around a 12 inch scar and drainage hole scars ever since. Thankfully I survived and made a complete recovery. Think about it. Most robberies take place at a close distance because your opponent: 1) is trying to get the jump on you, 2) needs to be close enough to issue a verbal order, and 3) close enough for you to hand over your wallet or other valuables. That doesn't happen at a significant distance. That would be an entirely different scenario that would give you an opportunity to take cover and make the threat (an accurate shot from a generally untrained thug) more difficult to execute. For me that means: 1) avoid areas in bad neighborhoods where that is more likely to happen, 2) carry a second, throw-away wallet if someone gets the jump on you, 3) be prepared to draw your weapon and shoot as quickly as possible (probably without using your sights) if absolutely necessary. This is a situation where if you choose to respond to the threat with a gunshot - fractions of a second make all of the difference. A situation where an exchange of gunfire at a distance is much less likely. That would probably only arise if you happened to not be the immediate target such as a parking lot or workplace incident, etc. In that case you would, of course, have to start making quick decisions about who the actual source of danger was and whether or not you were legally and morally justified in using lethal force at a distance. That's an entirely different and much less likely scenario. If the nature of the dispute is not absolutely clear you can't just start blasting people. You need to take cover until you figure it out and if the police show up you need to put your weapon on the ground and have your empty hands in plain sight. The number one rule? The best gun fight to have is the one that you avoid.
Being within driving distance of Any Martin Luther King is the 1st sign to be in condition Yellow, and possibly Red. You're known by the hood you're in . . . ☆
@@fjb4932 Yes. I moved from LA to murder city (Detroit, MI) and no one has said boo to me in Detroit for 45 years now. I actually ran into a Nazi cell (singing the Horst Wessel song in German) in the Firestone Sheriffs in LA. Different vibe altogether.
Another fine video from Chris. Thanks! I am retired from the US Army and also retired from Brinks Inc. On my initial training with Brinks in Washington DC our instructor was a retired captain from the DC police dept. During the classroom phase he quoted FBI statics from that time, roughly 1994. He stated that most compiled data from gunfights throughout the US involving law enforcement took place at 10 feet or less, involved an average of three rounds fired and were over in 3 seconds or less. Later on, roughly 8 years, I attended the Brinks firearms instructor training course in Dallas, Texas. The stated FBI statistics on gunfights had remained almost identical to the 1994 numbers. Whether your defensive handgun is MOS equipped or not is certainly a personnel choice. However, with the quoted statistics above, having an optic mounted handgun to be used in real world situations would seem, to me at least, to be unnecessary. Clearing your holster cleanly, getting that front sight on target quickly and getting a center mass first round hit with follow-up seems to be the goal here.
I think that 7 yard (21ft,) distance came from FBI analysis of how far a perpetrator can lunge and make contact with a victim with a knife, not necessarily a gun or other hand weapon. This is something taught to LEOs in training, i.e. letting a suspect within 21 feet is too close to defend against if the perp produces a knife and stabs the LE.
If it is that close up good I don't need the most. But to say it is unnecessary is asinine. You cannot say that there is 100% no chance of ever needing one
I totally agree and I take the boldness to add that the effort required to research and study all that data, and then organize it in a line of thought is not an easy job. Invaluable indeed!
@Erozpl01 01 and people have had optics glass pop out, the sight falls off, battery runs out. There's always gonna be that one wild story that happened to one person that one time. One guy said there's no added baggage to carrying an optic but there are, weight/ weapon profile/ and worrying about scratching your glass/ optics failing etc. I have both a pistol with and without, but don't fool yourself into saying there's no negatives at all to a red dot
@@areyou0k98 My concern would be getting it hooked on your shirt. But I've never run a red dot on a pistol, so I'm in no position to actually think that other than in the abstract.
Pretty sure Paul uses law enforcement statistics which is a little bit of a flawed sample for civilians. I train in increments of 3, 5, 7, and 10 yards for my handguns. If I'm proficient at three yards with a gun, I'm comfortable relying on it as my bedside gun, if I'm good at five I'm comfortable carrying it. Anything more is just me showing off. (And I'm talking three to five round groups not just single shots btw)
@@NikkyElso My interpretation when he says that is that he is not suggest that statistic is accurate, but it is what we are told and he'll use it for demonstration purposes. I interpret it that way because of the somewhat mocking tone he has when he says it and his repeated discussions related to his distrust of statistics of that sort.
2 points... 1 even if we had the average locked in there is still no guarantee that your fight will be average. 2 I'd rather be the guy who trains at 30 yards and gets in a fight at three than the guy who trains at three yards and gets in a fight at thirty.
Excellent point. John Corriea echoed something similar recently with regard to mass casualty events. When I started carrying it was with a Ruger .357 LCR (5 shot snubbie). That was great if an ATM issue is the most likely threat. Now I go with a CZ PCR for the longer sight radius and capacity.
Yup, excellent points. Just don't ignore the 3 and in aspect either. Retention, point, and single hand shooting need to be considered as well. If all you do is train 30 yards doing two handed arms extended out front shooting, then you'll be unprepared for the close fight.
Of course it's useful to shoot straight at 30 yards, but it's just a low priority in my book. I would place that priority after shooting straight at 7 yards, getting the quickest draw, retaining your weapon and firing from assorted awkward positions, including weak side. I suspect you're more likely to get shot with your own pistol (that got taken off you) than shot from 30 yard, unless you're a bystander hit by a stray. But to be fair, the red dot comes into its own at 15 yards (doesn't it?) and that's a more credible scenario, though still less common than closer.
I’ve been in 2 gunfights. My first I had a pistol and the felon had a pistol and a butcher knife. That was about 20 yards. The second I had an AR-15, with a red dot, and the felon had a pistol. That was almost exactly 50 yards. As you said though distances are skewed. For one I was able to go back later and measure mine, myself. I didn’t have to rely on someone else’s estimate. Which is usually what makes it in the record. My lawyer on my 50 yard shooting guessed that it was 15........ And he had been to the scene shortly after it happened and was allowed to walk around inside the crime scene tape. Those were both law enforcement shootings. But I’ve had a lot of friends with similar experiences. Most happen much further away than people realize. The friends of mine who have been very close, and in some cases also been shot, or stabbed, themselves during the fight, have been as you also mentioned in the act of wrestling with someone trying to get handcuffs on them. Not a concern for a citizen. For off duty carry I tend to look at all the shootings I’ve been a part of investigating though. WELL over 100. In 22 years it’s Probably closer to 300. Of those some were citizens shooting felons. But most were felons shooting other felons. Decent citizens don’t really need to worry about what will happen when the drug deal goes bad at 1 yard..... Unfortunately some have also been felons shooting unarmed citizens. In those I think you should expect to be within 5-7 yards. Although in my first iron sight shooting I remember being about 3 rounds in before I realized I was shooting. In the second I just concentrated on keeping the bouncing red dot center mass. So that big blazing red dot in your vision counts for something.
It is not really important but how can someone think 50 yards are only 15 i mean it is a really big difference. 15 yards is nearly nothing in comparison from 50 yards a person begins to look really small. Yeah but the thing is self defence shootings are not happening at 50 yard in 99% of cases when you are not an officer, i mean if someone would shoot at me from 50 yards i would probably shoot back a few times and try to run away. Most of the time a citizen have to defend him self it is because of a robbery or somethink like that an in that case a red dot does not really to much because it is at a so short distance that you are not really need to aim through your sight it is enough to point the gun in the direction. So for law enforcement it is maybe a good think but for "normal" people it is not necessary but it does not hurt to have a red dot neither.
In 2015 i was standing in a gun and pawn shop talking to the owner. When 5 young men from a different state which only 30 mins away from this location. They got into a argument with the owner over a gun purchase and the transfer of it to there state that they didnt want to deal with. the whole time 1 of them stayed at the front door watching outside, there was a large gun safe for sale towards the back of the gun shop. I slowly worked my way behind it. I had a 1911 with 8+1 rounds. The guys eventually left when the owner threatened to call the police. I remember thinking if this goes down im gonna wish i had back up mags with me. If you carry keep this in mind cause there can always be more then 1 bad guy and they also tend to carry high cap mags as well.
Chris, I just wanted to thank you. I have been watching you for years, and I really appreciate your work. I have learned a heck of a lot from you, and enjoy your informative and very interesting topics. The LG channel is a invaluable resource for the firearms community. Well done.
Dry fire is key regardless of sights used. Trex arms is a great training channel. They had a dude from Japan with no experience with firing real weapons but very experienced with dry fire practice out shooting established vets on the range.
That Japanese guy did really great for a 1st time real gun shooter but he had put in hundreds and hundreds of hours training with airsoft so he had pretty much all the muscle memory movements down he just needed to learn recoil management and how to not flinch during a mini explosion
When shooting, it's natural to focus on results on target. But when dry firing, you're only focusing on technique...the fundamentals. I took a class from a guy that emphasized dry firing as the key. When I put it into practice, my jaw fell open when I saw how much better my shooting was the next time I was at the range. One thing he said has always stuck with me, "Shooting is just dry firing with recoil, noise, and results." I'm gonna check out Trex, thanks!
I'll go to what a friend of mine, who is a firearms instructor said. He said, a handgun in a reactive weapon used to save your life. If you expect a gun fight, always carry a rifle.
Like the old saw goes in law enforcement, "The purpose of your handgun is to allow you to fight your way back to your patrol vehicle to retrieve your long gun."
But sadly, cops still rush into gunfights and probable gunfights leaving the long gun in the patrol vehicle. Maybe the long guns are too hard to extract - dunno. But there has to be a solution.
@@Jammaster1972, the desire to be better prepared encourages folks to spend money, sometimes, on things that they don’t need. As does a pistol-mounted light just makes it less-likely to be carried and take longer to deploy. LEO’s should certainly carry both, but the average joe isn’t hunting bad guys, his job is to create distance and get to safety. Job #1: avoid, if at all possible, those bad situations.
Great breakdown. I have had two threatening and potentially dangerous encounters in my life. Neither went completely south but both could have. Had engagement occurred, both would have been 5-7 yards. Both situations were in wilderness settings and I could have legally been carrying BUT WASN'T! In my later years (like now) I don't make that mistake.
Wouldn’t officer fatality distances tell us to be more skilled at close distances? Faster draw times, point shooting, lack of hesitation, situational awareness.
What the stats on Officer fatalities is missing is how many of the incidents were ambush attacks, and how many were situations where both parties were shooting.
Not only what @justin blower was saying, but they're wearing a uniform and are full on open carrying. That duty belt.... The badge, and the patches....
@@sammaupin3677 cops are targeted because that are cops, not because they are open carrying. In my 44 years, some of which were in law enforcement, I've never seen or heard of an incident when someone was targeted because of open carry.
@@thatrealba I think the point is making is you can SEE they're armed. You're not going to stand 10ft away and threaten them with a knife like you might a private citizen you don't know is armed.
The rule of three's makes a bit of sense, given that you're supposed to be DEFENSIVE. But it's only a "general rule." A lot of this boils down, sadly, to local laws. I come from the Buckeye State and up until quite recently we were not a stand your ground state. The rule I was taught by my class instructors, both of whom were SWAT for local large departments, was train up to seven yards for defense. Farther than that could be very tricky to justify in a legal context. So we were taught drills all the way from 0-7 yards. Now they also taught combat handgun, which trained to 25 yards, but 1) I could never afford it and 2) there was a very distinct difference between defensive handgun and combat handgun. Defensive handgun we all had Shields, G43's, my PPK, a Sig238, even a few J-Frames. Combat handgun always had Glock 17's, Sig P229's and 226's, so on and so forth. So it's important, in my mind, to determine your style of carry early on. Are you taking a defensive mentality, or a combat mentality? Pick one and train that way. It's also why I took up a martial arts class. In close quarters if you're attacker is a lot stronger than you are you're going to have a heck of a time retrieving your handgun. Having some martial arts gives you skills and moves you can use to help disengage from a hand to hand engagement and allow you time to get breathing space and retrieve your weapon. Bottom line, if you carry, train for what your local laws permit, and if you're of a defensive mentality or a combat mentality. Train as often as you can afford, and back up your handgun with something else; martial arts, a knife, what have you. Always have a plan D, because A-C can go to crap in a hurry. And always assume if you have 1 threat, you have 2, if you have 2 you have 4, and if you have 4 you have 8. And if you get to 8, then I'm screwed because my PPK only holds 7 rounds.
I agree in Oklahoma 20 feet is where you are allowed to use deadly force if someone poses a threat to you so that’s what I train at I sometimes carry a Glock 19. But I mainly carry a Ruger EC9
Inserting deadly force into a fist fight or grappling fight will get you thrown in jail in most cases. Peter spray is a great disengagement tool in these cases.
@@richardthomas6602 if it works on the first try yes I will use it but if it fails and the individual is still a threat then deadly force is a last resort
@@Platano_macho - So...in Oklahoma, what if someone poses a threat to you beyond 20-feet? Can you not defend yourself? Or do you just automatically go to jail?
Chris: I used to teach concealed carry classes (really teach -- not just show videos). All of my students' concerns centered on home break-ins, car jacking, robberies and rapes. All those occur at damn near bad breath distance. Maybe you can come up with other examples of when civilians use their guns, but that has to be the vast majority at least in the city and suburbs. Good video.
You expressed what I was thinking during this video. Though basic marksmanship skills are valuable, do you train your students to point shoot at less than 6’?
@D J Robbers and rapists don't work at a distance. They are in your face. Car jackings -- the same: they have to get you out of the car. Home break-ins may open up the distances a bit, but we're still talking top distances are room to room. Cordially, Ron
@@EchoSigma6 I tell my students to hold the gun in a low ready so the sights are visible if you look for them (if the gun is pointed too far downward - you lose the sights). The idea is that when you bring the gun up and out the sights should be available. Even if you're looking at the bad guy, the sights should be down in front of you. I used to shoot 10,000 shots a year out of my handguns -- so I got pretty good at seeing where the sights were pointing even if the gun wasn't really high enough for true sight alignment (your brain kind of triangulates and does the math for you). I guess that equates to point shooting. As a general rule I taught folks to aim when you can, point when you have to -- but practice!!! Another big issue is that bad guys are a lot LOT faster than we imagine. We have to be ready to act quickly, so even when we aim, we'll be lucky to barely "grab" a sight picture (especially on follow-up shots), so focus hard on the bad guy and "see" the sights fuzzy.
@D J I get your point, and largely agree, but some folks don't do anything naturally with a gun. There are some real klutzy people out there that have learn everything with guns and how to shoot them. One issue is their trigger pulls are so bad, they stop trusting their eyes when they see they are missing and just start yanking the trigger.
This is awesome. As a person who has tried to gather this info over the years, thanks for compiling all this. It's a lot of effort and it's much appreciated.
And just one handed shooting in general, as it happens a lot more often than you’d expect in a time where everyone’s using two handed methods. Point shooting gets weird interpretations, the truth of it is that you use as much sight as you need to. At 30 yards I’m going to make sure my front sight is absolutely centered, at three feet I can make solid meaningful hits with the gun at the navel if I need to.
@@redaethel4619 Yep I practice point shooting with one & two hands . Both ways can work very well with practice . ALSO with a long gun , kind of like 2 handed point shooting , you can shoot well a good distance like that . The POINT is Speed , shoot like you might with no real time to aim & still get good fast hits .
"If I was trying to build a winning football team I wouldn't look at the stats for a losing basketball team." A perfect explanation of why LEOKA stats are not a good choice for informing decisions about how to prepare for private citizen self defense.
Chris. Your a GOAT of rational exploration of a topic. Always thoughtfully constructed and researched presentations on a topic, freely acknowledging limits or where information disparities makes comparisons a challenge. Great job.
My takeaway: Of the 67 incidents, 3 killed because they were unarmed and unable to defend themselves 😔. Consistently carrying makes a difference.. *and consistently training..
Thank you for answering the question. Yesterday's video had me thinking all day about this question. I carry a Glock 48 with true glow sites. At the range I can hit 25 yards to a few feet. I am 61 years old so I do not see as well as I use to. But I believe I am a fair shot. I do a lot of quick draws at 10 feet with verbal commands. I hit heart lung shot all of the time. I know a red dot would be better at longer distances maybe even at closer. But I carry my pistol in two ways. One in my pocket and the other concealed strong side. The Red dot would work on strong side but not pocket carry. I could get two guns but I have always like the feel of the same. The old saying "beware of the man with one gun for He knows how to use it." So I am still thinking, praying though my choice. Looking forward to the next video.
If the range is short, I use "point shooting" or instinctive fire. If the distance is further, the sights are used. These distances are variable, depending on the skill of each shooter.
@@Fvckyou123 I wonder if it’s like the ww2 training films where they didn’t have time to train with pistols that much so they taught them how to point shoot with your body and it said “there’s a high probability of scoring at least 1 hit in 7 shots like this.”
@@jeffpraterJSF the video is here(ua-cam.com/video/et5FHMwB3gY/v-deo.html) at 2 min 45 sec. It was the real technique because theres no reason to rush fbi training and they thought hip firing or point shooting was faster thus better.
I recently started using pistol red dots. I shoot a half sized silhouettes at 10-15 yards. With little dry fire practice I was having trouble finding the dot. So I started drawing and using the window like a ghost ring sight. At 10 yards it’s 100% on target, so I have 0 concerns about using a red dot for EDC now.
Walther’s latest videos featuring the new PDP, I got one and it’s AWESOME, gives tips and talks about how it was designed for red dots. It’s not the slide cut but the grip that was the main feature for the dot. The grip is designed for more pressure in your grip from your pinky and ring finger. They showed Colion Noir that if your having a problem finding the dot squeeze a little harder with your pinky finger and it will bring the dot right into frame. I mean damnit if they were not correct. I’ll try to find the video and link it but seriously if anyone is having problems finding the dot like Noir was, try it. It really works.
What helps is to have your irons 1/3 co-witnessed. You'll always find the dot and if you can't, take a quick peek at the irons and you'll know immediately where the dot is out of frame.
@@Rodzilla5332 check out modern samurai project. That guy is sponcered by Walther and it's a premier red dot instructor. I tone of great info on his UA-cam
I would imagine a large proportion of civilian defensive shooting would occur in a home. If not in a home, at the least indoors. Assuming a typical bedroom or living room isn't more than 20 or so feet across, that would automatically limit the average range of those gunfights.
Assaults outside the home are far more likely, but more people have guns at home than people who carry guns, so you're probably right that most civilian shootings are at home. The majority of the Rangemaster student incidents occurred outside the home, which is probably another reason so few of them have been in the 0-2 yard range.
Avoid situations likely to result in physical conflict. Don’t aggress. Sleep next to a rifle. Carry a concealed pistol. Practice with both. Kill things and eat them.
My friends Grandfather was a Marine Raider in WW2. His lesson to his Grandson--“ If you are shooting a pistol in combat and are using the sights--you are probably shooting too darn slow” Ed Lovette, in his snub nose revolver book, has some civilian gunfights statistics and they correspond with the rule of 3.
Excellent commentary! Even before the next video, this teaches us all a valuable lesson...PRACTICE! Practice manipulating your firearm of choice at 3 yards, then at 1 yard, and 6.25 yards, then at 4.38 feet, then up-close & personal, then at 13 feet, then leaning on something, then on the ground, then on your side, then hiding behind, maybe shoot at 15 yards...You get the picture. At the indoor gun range, don't just stand there, you've got 2 feet on either side of you too...move side to side if you're allowed, etc! Can't wait for your next video, Chris!
While shooting my Glock 34 that I use for uspsa I started questioning how much I was actually using my sights. Particularly at closer shots under 10 yards I felt like I was looking over the sights and either not using them at all or very little and became concerned it was building bad habits. One day, without noticing my rear sight shifted to the left. Enough to see if you looked but not a huge amount that felt off when lining up for closer shots. All of the sudden I went from pretty decent center of mass hits to just missing b zone targets off to the side. Shot a few rounds before stopping to figure out what was up. Easy fix but on the plus side I realized how much I was actually seeing and using my sights, even up close.
I know red dots are the future and I’m slowly getting accustomed to using one but for me there 2 factors holding me back. 1. Having over a decade of training/practice/competition with irons, they are faster within 15 yards for me. Training issue, i know. 2. With carry, HD, and competition, I use 4-5 different pistols and putting a quality RMR on all of them would be extremely expensive.
While I agree that a vast majority of engagements will be well under 10yds, I’d say it’s also a good idea to prepare for the worst case scenario. You may be the outlier that needs to take a shot at 15+ yards, so train with your setup to make sure you can do it if the need arises.
Definitely appreciate your attempt to come up with real numbers. During my CPL course here in Michigan, we shoot at 3 yards and 7 yards. They also tell us that most encounters happen at 7 yards or less. I think sights are a reference that become more important the further the distance of the object. I definitely don't think that a red dot for carry improves in these two ranges. For more detailed shooting like pest removal or target shooting at short range, they are somewhat helpful.
Hey Chris, Solid information as usual. I'm currently reading Tom Givens' book Concealed Carry Class so I was happy your referenced it. I think the most important key to being prepared for self defense is to get training. The ability to work through different scenarios in a class setting let's you figure out what you need to do in the event you need to deploy your gun. And if sights (RDS or iron) are needed. Thanks for all the great videos.
Retired LEO here. Even in qualification I do point shooting only at 3-5 yards. More than that I will try to use a quick sighting with the sights. I only have iron sights. They never fail. Training for short range accuracy should focus on grip and presentation over sight picture. I still raise the weapon up near my line of sight rather than hip shooting. At close contact a close to the body hip shot may be called for. So maybe some practice would be warranted.
I agree with you on that. I was hesitant to go with the red dot at first. Now I’m loving it. I’m far more accurate at all distances with the dot. I believe they are the future.
Good video. What wasn’t discussed was hit/miss ratios. When I used to teach this stuff “trained officers” MISSED 80% of the time. I don’t know what the current stats are but wouldn’t be surprised if it isn’t similar. 8 out of 10 rounds are heading into the community (mall, church, school, park, roadway, etc.) at 1000+ft/sec, and that doesn’t count any pass-through projectiles. Point shooting out to 15’ is a good idea; enhanced sighting systems for distances over that seems a prudent option.
Something that is extremely useful is training with contact and resistance against armed and unarmed foes, at within arms reach distance, practicing deploying your various implements under pressure. I trained regularly with a group that did mostly FMA (Filipino Martial Arts), but also Grappling and various weapons. We would train getting our training knives 🔪 (fixed and folders) out and deployed while being punched or grappled. We worked on getting out items into the fight from various positions, on the ground, on our backs, etc while someone wearing MMA gloves wails on you! It’s great training that helps prepare you for real encounters.
For a while now, I haven't seen anyone who doesn't carry chambered. I used to know one guy that wouldn't carry chambered due to fear of NDs, but he came around about 2.5 years ago.
Re: Gunfight distances, 1 common factor. “Most civilian altercations not involving the IMMEDIATE need to get very close to a victim to commit a crime, happen within basic speaking/hearing distances without having to raise the voice to shouting levels to be heard, at the outset of an altercation. The majority of any kind of fight, usually starts with some kind of spoken communication. That distance is not often over the distance of moderate human hearing .” Charles V.
I would think that the engagement distance for civilians would be more likely closer rather than farther. This is primarily due to the premise that the likelihood of a defensive shooting is directly proportional to how quickly the threat is identified, and can be determined to be an imminent & deadly.
At the end of the day the majority of attackers are going to be closing distance on you so unless you identify them as an attacker at 100 yards aways they're going to be within close range. Unless gang warfare or some unorthodox shit like that
Outside my own bedroom and bedroom hallway I have no moral obligation to close the range. As a civilian I can run away bravely. "Stop. Leave me alone. Go away..." By contrast the LEO must close the range and end the engagement.
@Henry Murphy You mention some topics that are a great mystery to professionals and laymen alike. Where will the attack come from, and at what distance? In my years of gun packing and concerns, from a vehicle it could be 20 yards, from a parking lot, 30 feet to 3 feet? I used to practice at 20 yards, now it's down to 20 ft, and my carry guns are smaller. Pace of the distance across a McDonalds, and it's about 30 ft. I now think about just getting the gun out and fire based on getting the sights on the target, or gap shooting off the end of the pistol barrel at closer ranges. Having experience at shooting longer ranges with pistols, I can figure out the needed sight hold. God help us all if we ever need to draw our weapons. The 'law' would never be on our side, but semi directed grazing fire might save your life; that never seems to be mentioned; every instance won't be a clean draw, or a person having a perfectly squared up target standing still for you to shoot.
@@tedb.5707 To your first comment I agree very much. I can't imagine a situation where a person in my home gets more than one warning shout. As for your second comment about a LEO's obligations. No such obligation exists. In the USA LEOs have NO DUTY TO PROTECT the public. None, not even a little. The courts have ruled on this and it is settled law. An officer can stand by and watch you get murdered and do NOTHING and they have done nothing wrong. So, long as they arrest your murder and or write a report. They have no responsibility to protect you.
Most civilian self defense situations will indeed be robbery or personal harm/bodily injury…both require relatively close proximity. Front yard, inside your home, transitional areas. 0-20’ seems most reasonable. 60’ or more seems to be a stretch for self defense when in front of a jury.
Not that old bullshit again. You might just be saying we should beware the old man who bought a gun 30 years ago, stuck it in a drawer, and hasn't picked it up since...
I am an old man.... 72 years old.... I have a 1991 Taurus #85... it has been my only CCW since then... 30 years, only handgun I carry and practice with regularly. At 21feet I can shoot 50 rounds reloading 5 rounds at a time - nonstop! It has a Crimson Red Dot installed along with a trigger and hammer jobs. I can and still do- place 49 out of 50 shots in the palm of YOUR HAND! I firmly believe that if one can keep all rounds in a tight center mass they should aim for the bridge of the nose instead of the chest. No body armour for the nose. The 50th round was down and left 1 1/2" of outside fired pattern.
I’m laughing with you at this. When I became a fed we spent an unbelievable amount of time in firearms training. The purpose behind it all? Muscle memory.
This video had me taking in every word, what a compelling subject matter. A few months ago I saw a video by Warrior Poet Society on close distance shooting and how shots by trained police missed 80% and the actual hits were low. Ever since then I started practicing what he showed. I also watch James Yeager.
In the Atlanta area, it seems there is a shooting at a gas station every week and sometimes more. I find myself more aware when pumping gas than most any other time. Regardless, being situationally aware is your first line of defense. The sooner you identify the potential danger, the more time you have to react and respond.
At 10 yards and beyond it is difficult to tell if you are going to be attacked. If the attacker is intended on attacking you and he’s at 10 yards you have to wait until he comes a little closer to determine what his intentions are. The closer he gets the more assured you are if he is going to attack you. His intentions can be determined by his facial expression, his vocabulary and his gestures and pace at which he is walking. Assuming that all happened he will be at about 5 yards or less in a matter of seconds. At that time, you have to be sure that he is going to attack you before you pull your weapon out. Therefore, it is fair to say that a lot of attacks will be at 5 yards or less. Remember, you have to make that determination and you must be sure of what you’re doing. You could be taking an innocent life. Therefore, you need to know what actions by an assailant Contribute to an attack on you. Now 5 yards is 15 feet about the distance of the length of a car. He needs to get that close or your determination to be correct and legal. So this guy isn’t too far off.. remember you are not a cop.
Excellent video. MUCH more needs to be done on subjects like this. FWIW personally that so many are close in is why I do two things that aren't so common these days. Carry a 45 and carry a fixed blade knife. The 45 is about the fact that I want the fastest incapacitation possible. I consider it unlikely that capacity will truly matter, that time will only allow for a few rounds before I've either won or lost. Those few rounds need to do as much as possible. The knife is because so many attacks are physical contact, grappling type attacks. For those a gun is the wrong tool, a knife is a far superior tool. It's also why I'm opposed to appendix carry, the draw is to easy to pin, too hard to turn away from the attacker, and too hard to do one handed. And again it's why when I train my draw I do NOT practice extending my arms before firing. My first round off is point shooting from retention with one hand. That said I just bought my first pistol red dot. The new ACSS Vulcan convinced me it was worth it.
Finally, some stats to at least have a baseline to have a realistic discussion on distance(s) of a typical gunfight. One may want to take it with a grain of salt but it is something to consider when training for self-defense with a weapon. Thanks for the info.
Also, just look around next time you’re out in public and imagine scenarios where you would be in danger. Like walking down a sidewalk and you see someone approaching you. Visualize what that confrontation would be like given the environment around you. I would wager that almost all would be in the 3 foot to 10 foot range.
I was involved in two shootings as a police officer that resulted in someone being shot. The first in 1986, started at around 35 ft. and ended with the suspect being shot at around 60 ft. The second in 1992, started as an ambush from around 100 ft. and ended with a suspect being shot and killed at around 12 ft. There was also a blood trail leading away from the ambush site that started around 80-90 ft. From our position at the start, that subject was never found. You can take a number of shootings and divide by total distance and arrive at an average, but in reality, there is no typical distance.
Thanks for this video. In another one, you mention Tom Given's book. In this one, he mentions that his clients who had to défend their lives had engagements at "car length". Engagements under two yards are rare. So are engagements beyond 7. He also mentions that incidents with two agressors are frequent.
There was a shooting on the news last week in my area. Between parked cars on one side of the street and parked cars on the other side of the street. I could count up to 15 empty cases on the ground one side of the street and not know exactly how many on the other side it looks like there was another equal amount of 15 empty. That means that there were no less than 30 rounds fired during that gunfight. Nobody was using a snubby or a small concealed handgun. That distance was about 50 feet. You’re under the presumption that somebody’s gonna jump in front of you and be about 3 feet from you And demand your wallet.
Objective of a criminal is usually to steal. They must be near enough to communicate and threaten. Usually they want you to hand them your wallet, keys, phone, etc... which means they're within about 2 yards. And if you've watched videos of armed robberies, it's usually more like 1 yard. Standing close also provides intimidation value, even though it's tactically detrimental.
One important thing I gathered from this information is the importance to maintain a round in the chamber. The speed of incident is so fast you will never be able to rack the slide of a pistol. The advantage to a revolver for always having a full cylinder. Ready for immediate use.
My cwp instructor as well as several others I have talked to taught us 3/3/3. Most self defense confrontations are three seconds, 3 yards, three shots.
Kinda wish the data specified "indoor" and "outdoor" shooting incidents. This is essentially comparing door breaches to sideways traffic stops, but without labeling which is which.
Great presentation and service. Situational awareness is always a priority. Retired Detroit PD and "civilianized" I find verbally or visually acknowledging a threat throws them.out of their zone and therefore their guard and awareness many times eliminating any threat. God bless, thanks and stay safe and healthy.👮
I watch your videos for the useful information, I appreciate them for the amazing production quality, but the song lyric easter eggs are absolutely gold.
“Hey you!” “You over there!!! I’m yelling at you! This is a robbery! I said THIS IS A ROBBERY!” Maybe we need artillery. Maybe only LEOs need red dots.
The problem with the 3-5 yard figure is that people use it as a yardstick for performance, as in "if I can hit a silhouette at 3-5 yards, I'm good enough so there is no point in shooting a B8 at 10 to 25 yards". But that would be like saying that there is no point in working up to benching 225, squatting 315 and deadlifting 405, because the heaviest object you would ever need to lift in real life will almost never be over 50-100 pounds. We all know that being able to safely and efficiently move oddly shaped objects with no handles like 50 pound bags of cement or furniture items in real life corresponds to much higher numbers on gym lifts which are performed with ideally shaped and balanced weight under ideal conditions following an anatomically perfect movement pattern. Same goes for shooting on the range under ideal conditions and for shooting in self defense.
My friend was forced to shoot someone about 10 years ago. He doesn’t like to talk about it, but I do know he fired 10 rounds with his Glock and hit the guy 7 times without using the sights. Also they were close enough to have a short verbal exchange before the shooting started. (Don’t know the true distance, and I’m not going to ask)
@@reserva120 if you were smart you'd realize from what he said that in a blink of an eye no matter at what distance you end up shooting more than expected for a gun fight without using much of that training people always tell others to take.
Your comment is way less relevant and a lot more “useless”. I provided a simple datapoint that is very relevant to this video and the previously mentioned video about red dot sights. Sorry the police didn’t give him a report that said “the shots were fired from exactly 8 yards away” or something like that. He was happy enough to not be charged with a crime and to get his guns back. And I didn’t want to make up a number when I don’t know exactly. There’s already enough made up statistics out there as it is.
Your friend doesn't remember using his sights. That doesn't mean he didn't. Its not uncommon for those involved in a gunfight to have no recollection of acquiring a sight picture before firing.
I shot a criminal during patrol in the Tampa PD .... (7) times with my S&W 5906 (9mm) during a traffic stop in 1985 and all body shots and the guy survived and served 15 years and is now walking around and working ...... The shootout happened within 10 feet ......
YES, so much this. I thought I was doing good when I was shooting tight rapid fire groups at 15 yards, then I reached out to a whopping 25 yards and I was all OVER the place. I had to slow way down and build my speed back up, then my groups at 15 were even tighter.
I live in California. I believe I would have a very difficult time defending myself in court claiming self defense if my alleged assailant was very far away. It would be difficult to be convincing that someone across the street, for example, was a threat to my life. So I envision any self defense shooting I would be doing would be relatively close. It is also illegal for me to brandish a weapon to scare someone off. So that means the state expects me to quickly draw and fire, or shoot though my pocket. Both of these negate the need for good sights. The reality is I think the main time I would have gun in hand would be for a home intruder. In this case I believe something like the red dot sights would be an advantage, especially in low light situations.
extrapolate indoor shootings : most interior spaces 15'-30' max dimensions extrapolate exterior shootings : voice range OR long distance ambush. dont forget vehicles 3-5 yards sounds like offices n homes vs malls and lecture halls thanks mate
When I go to the range Iv'e started going back to around 25 yards and dong a type of "Jack Wilson" drill, a cold draw from concealment with one shot to the head of the target. With my ageing eyes using an optic has greatly improved my hit %.
Greg Ellifritz studied something like 1,700 police shootings. He might be able to put the gun fight distances intom prespective for you. He is a great teacher. I met him at the Revolver Round-Up 2020 after I saw the class on your channel.
If you conceal carry, in the time it takes you to assess the situation, get your hand under your shirt, pull, aim and fire your weapon, you will be dead, if the person is only 3 yards away and attacking you. I love this video because it is very informative and detailed.
My only incident involved a guy who broke into my first apartment right after my discharge from the Marines. I heard a window break at around 2am. I grabbed my double-barrel 12-gauge, 28" barrel, one side loaded with a slug and the other with buck. This was before cell phones, and my phone was in the kitchen. I slowly waked out and about 12-15 feet from me was the burglar. He saw he with the shotgun and went to his knees and begged me not to shoot him. I called the police as he lay quivering on the floor. The police came, arrested him, and he thanked me for not blowing him away. This guy was scared to death. (edited, spelling error)
Data is realistic if thousands of cases of individual gunfights are collected, analyzed and tabulated. Without adequate numbers, no reasonable conclusions can be made and analysis suffers from the low numbers. It is my humble opinion this video is the best interpretation of gunfight distance from the number of gunfight incidents gathered from various sources at the moment.
Interesting information. So basically concentrate training from the range of zero to 7 yards. Also put in distance training but concentrate on that range.
If I had younger eyes I would do the 15 yards head shots but that’s very unrealistic on a moving target at my age. I do the Mozambican drill at 7 yards. I only use Iron sights. Works for me so far.
In the army I carried an M1911 with iron sights. I had no problem hitting targets at 25 meters with the crude sights on the issued pistol. I doubt I would ever get into a gunfight with pistols at that range. FBI says most officer death shootings are at around 0-5 feet. They train for shooting at that distance and weapon’s retention, otherwise they use the Weaver stance and train for about 7 yards or 21 feet. You can train to silhouette your weapon so that the sights are basically aligned with a target at that range for quick acquisition. I’m not going to worry about red dot sights laser sighting. At that range. I train to get the weapon on target quickly. I want to bring the weapon up muscle memory into position ready to shoot. I will train to shoot to these distances, 0-5 feet for close in striking range, and close range and 0-21 feet/ 7 yards for that knife running range. And further out but from a solid stance or position at a range that is the maximum distance in my home. Any longer distance you should be able to retreat to safety. I look at the possibility of legal liability of shooting with souped up weapons in the eyes of a jury. My 1911 is standard with 7 round magazines. No adjustable sight, compensators. Etc. just a factory gun. I’m planning on getting a simple revolver. With either 2-4 inch barrel. And a couple of speed loaders.
1/13/2015 I worked at a convenience store three armed men came in late one night.And they began shooting and I fired back killed 2 the 3rd one ran away. The distance was Around 10 feet. I didn’t have time to look at my sites. I practiced point shooting at that distance twice a month. Practice saved my life.
I looked you up. If you really are Brad Keeling, I’m glad you made it. You did an outstanding job. Seems odd they went after the other two for murder but I guess they were more responsible for the two men dying than anyone else, other than the two men themselves. Did your gun get taken away forever?
I’ll take things that never happened for 20 Alex.
@@derrickrr5516 When you commit armed robbery any deaths that happen because of the incident are legally your fault. You could be the getaway driver, never enter the store or touch a weapon and be charged for murder if your accomplices kill someone, someone has a heart attack, ect.
Mr. Ron, ( gun store owner, cowboy action. Korean Veteren, One of our founding fathers of or county gun range) said don't put anything on it that will slow it down and just look at the back of the gun.
Glad you made it.
Also, I think you will agree with me that under that type of threat the brain will not let you close one eye, and the pupils dilate due to adrenal stress
making it impossible to focus on something close to your face such as the sights on the gun.
100% in agreement with you that training point shooting is what saved your life.
Retired LEO here. Very good video. In about 1979-80 I was on the DPS range in Austin, Tx listening to Reeves Jungkind, the DPS instructor. He talked about the "typical" gunfight. I'll always remember that he mentioned a living room, a convenience store or even a lawn as the most likely place to be in a gunfight. Since then, from Jeff Cooper to many others throughout my 20 years it was brought home again and again. Think of the size of a room, anything from 5 to 20 feet. It will happen fast and violently and you may not be "gun in hand" when it starts. That's what most of my training focused on. Yeah, I shot some at 25yds and 15yds. But I wore it out at 10 yds and less. Your data seems to support that. Again, thanks for a very good video. Now the old man will shut up...but remember, I made to be an old man.
Fellow Austinite here, similar in age. What you say makes perfect sense.
Glad you made it to be an old man, sir.
Yes, I was robbed at gunpoint several times, and every time it was within ten feet.
Thank you Mr DeHart, I found your offering to the discussion both informative and interesting👍 In addition Thank you for your service and congrats on your determination to retire to your family 🙏👏🇺🇸💥
Old age...always earned, never given.
Most gunfights happen at conversational distance...because it's conversation that starts most gunfights!
Or robbery, makes sense.
@@Devon-tj4uc True, robbery isn't a conversation, it's a demand and the threat of violence.
The overwhelming majority of lethal assaults are up close and personal - within a few feet. I know. A couple of teenagers attempted to rob me while I was leaving a liquor store parking lot pay phone at Manchester and Stanford in Los Angeles in 1973. I turned. They were there. One of them barked, "Give it up." I stupidly put my fists up expecting a fistfight. One of them pulled out a gun and shot me in the chest (it sounded like a firecracker). I looked down and saw a red dot in the vicinity of my heart. They ran off. I drove myself to Martin Luther King Hospital and woke up two days later in ICU. They had to cut me open to remove the bullet. I've carried around a 12 inch scar and drainage hole scars ever since. Thankfully I survived and made a complete recovery. Think about it. Most robberies take place at a close distance because your opponent: 1) is trying to get the jump on you, 2) needs to be close enough to issue a verbal order, and 3) close enough for you to hand over your wallet or other valuables. That doesn't happen at a significant distance. That would be an entirely different scenario that would give you an opportunity to take cover and make the threat (an accurate shot from a generally untrained thug) more difficult to execute. For me that means: 1) avoid areas in bad neighborhoods where that is more likely to happen, 2) carry a second, throw-away wallet if someone gets the jump on you, 3) be prepared to draw your weapon and shoot as quickly as possible (probably without using your sights) if absolutely necessary. This is a situation where if you choose to respond to the threat with a gunshot - fractions of a second make all of the difference. A situation where an exchange of gunfire at a distance is much less likely. That would probably only arise if you happened to not be the immediate target such as a parking lot or workplace incident, etc. In that case you would, of course, have to start making quick decisions about who the actual source of danger was and whether or not you were legally and morally justified in using lethal force at a distance. That's an entirely different and much less likely scenario. If the nature of the dispute is not absolutely clear you can't just start blasting people. You need to take cover until you figure it out and if the police show up you need to put your weapon on the ground and have your empty hands in plain sight. The number one rule? The best gun fight to have is the one that you avoid.
Man, you survived. You were blessed.
Having a throw away wallet I a great idea that I have NEVER heard of before! I'm going to start carrying one ! THANK YOU !!!
Being within driving distance of Any Martin Luther King is the 1st sign to be in condition Yellow, and possibly Red. You're known by the hood you're in . . . ☆
@@fjb4932 Yes. I moved from LA to murder city (Detroit, MI) and no one has said boo to me in Detroit for 45 years now. I actually ran into a Nazi cell (singing the Horst Wessel song in German) in the Firestone Sheriffs in LA. Different vibe altogether.
So ONE incident 50 YEARS ago qualifies you to posit what THE MAJORITY of gunfights looks like
Another fine video from Chris. Thanks!
I am retired from the US Army and also retired from Brinks Inc. On my initial training with Brinks in Washington DC our instructor was a retired captain from the DC police dept. During the classroom phase he quoted FBI statics from that time, roughly 1994. He stated that most compiled data from gunfights throughout the US involving law enforcement took place at 10 feet or less, involved an average of three rounds fired and were over in 3 seconds or less. Later on, roughly 8 years, I attended the Brinks firearms instructor training course in Dallas, Texas. The stated FBI statistics on gunfights had remained almost identical to the 1994 numbers.
Whether your defensive handgun is MOS equipped or not is certainly a personnel choice. However, with the quoted statistics above, having an optic mounted handgun to be used in real world situations would seem, to me at least, to be unnecessary. Clearing your holster cleanly, getting that front sight on target quickly and getting a center mass first round hit with follow-up seems to be the goal here.
I think that 7 yard (21ft,) distance came from FBI analysis of how far a perpetrator can lunge and make contact with a victim with a knife, not necessarily a gun or other hand weapon. This is something taught to LEOs in training, i.e. letting a suspect within 21 feet is too close to defend against if the perp produces a knife and stabs the LE.
If it is that close up good I don't need the most. But to say it is unnecessary is asinine. You cannot say that there is 100% no chance of ever needing one
In what often seems like an increasingly fact-free world, Chris’s rational and evidence-based videos are a breath of fresh air.
Next up - “The true probability of ever being in a gun fight.”
Indeed
I totally agree and I take the boldness to add that the effort required to research and study all that data, and then organize it in a line of thought is not an easy job. Invaluable indeed!
@@ScoobyFermentation Yup, and vs the probability of a ND.
@@ScoobyFermentation Careful, might talk yourself out of spending thousands of dollars of guns and accessories if you think about it..........
I can't see a red dot being particularly useful inside of 5 yards. The most important thing would be to have a round in the chamber.
I think the better question is does it hurt? And the answer, based on my experience, is no. At that point, it's personal preference.
@@DWalter.27 an optic, is more weight, more profile to try to conceal, and adding an electronic device to worry about to your firearm.
@Erozpl01 01 and people have had optics glass pop out, the sight falls off, battery runs out. There's always gonna be that one wild story that happened to one person that one time. One guy said there's no added baggage to carrying an optic but there are, weight/ weapon profile/ and worrying about scratching your glass/ optics failing etc. I have both a pistol with and without, but don't fool yourself into saying there's no negatives at all to a red dot
@@areyou0k98 Just get height sights then. If its too bug for you specifically then dont carry it. Nobody cares what you carry nor will they notice.
@@areyou0k98 My concern would be getting it hooked on your shirt. But I've never run a red dot on a pistol, so I'm in no position to actually think that other than in the abstract.
"The FBI has been telling us for decades that the mean average distance of a lethal confrontation is 7 yards"
Pretty sure Paul uses law enforcement statistics which is a little bit of a flawed sample for civilians. I train in increments of 3, 5, 7, and 10 yards for my handguns. If I'm proficient at three yards with a gun, I'm comfortable relying on it as my bedside gun, if I'm good at five I'm comfortable carrying it. Anything more is just me showing off. (And I'm talking three to five round groups not just single shots btw)
The FBI says many things. They should stop speaking
Yes. Within 21 feet.
@@jasonschmidt9569 LMAO... Right.
@@NikkyElso My interpretation when he says that is that he is not suggest that statistic is accurate, but it is what we are told and he'll use it for demonstration purposes. I interpret it that way because of the somewhat mocking tone he has when he says it and his repeated discussions related to his distrust of statistics of that sort.
2 points... 1 even if we had the average locked in there is still no guarantee that your fight will be average. 2 I'd rather be the guy who trains at 30 yards and gets in a fight at three than the guy who trains at three yards and gets in a fight at thirty.
I try to practice at different ranges, it keeps it fresh.
I agree 100%
Excellent point. John Corriea echoed something similar recently with regard to mass casualty events.
When I started carrying it was with a Ruger .357 LCR (5 shot snubbie). That was great if an ATM issue is the most likely threat. Now I go with a CZ PCR for the longer sight radius and capacity.
Yup, excellent points. Just don't ignore the 3 and in aspect either. Retention, point, and single hand shooting need to be considered as well. If all you do is train 30 yards doing two handed arms extended out front shooting, then you'll be unprepared for the close fight.
Of course it's useful to shoot straight at 30 yards, but it's just a low priority in my book. I would place that priority after shooting straight at 7 yards, getting the quickest draw, retaining your weapon and firing from assorted awkward positions, including weak side. I suspect you're more likely to get shot with your own pistol (that got taken off you) than shot from 30 yard, unless you're a bystander hit by a stray.
But to be fair, the red dot comes into its own at 15 yards (doesn't it?) and that's a more credible scenario, though still less common than closer.
I’ve been in 2 gunfights. My first I had a pistol and the felon had a pistol and a butcher knife. That was about 20 yards. The second I had an AR-15, with a red dot, and the felon had a pistol. That was almost exactly 50 yards. As you said though distances are skewed. For one I was able to go back later and measure mine, myself. I didn’t have to rely on someone else’s estimate. Which is usually what makes it in the record. My lawyer on my 50 yard shooting guessed that it was 15........ And he had been to the scene shortly after it happened and was allowed to walk around inside the crime scene tape. Those were both law enforcement shootings. But I’ve had a lot of friends with similar experiences. Most happen much further away than people realize. The friends of mine who have been very close, and in some cases also been shot, or stabbed, themselves during the fight, have been as you also mentioned in the act of wrestling with someone trying to get handcuffs on them. Not a concern for a citizen. For off duty carry I tend to look at all the shootings I’ve been a part of investigating though. WELL over 100. In 22 years it’s Probably closer to 300. Of those some were citizens shooting felons. But most were felons shooting other felons. Decent citizens don’t really need to worry about what will happen when the drug deal goes bad at 1 yard..... Unfortunately some have also been felons shooting unarmed citizens. In those I think you should expect to be within 5-7 yards. Although in my first iron sight shooting I remember being about 3 rounds in before I realized I was shooting. In the second I just concentrated on keeping the bouncing red dot center mass. So that big blazing red dot in your vision counts for something.
It is not really important but how can someone think 50 yards are only 15 i mean it is a really big difference. 15 yards is nearly nothing in comparison from 50 yards a person begins to look really small. Yeah but the thing is self defence shootings are not happening at 50 yard in 99% of cases when you are not an officer, i mean if someone would shoot at me from 50 yards i would probably shoot back a few times and try to run away. Most of the time a citizen have to defend him self it is because of a robbery or somethink like that an in that case a red dot does not really to much because it is at a so short distance that you are not really need to aim through your sight it is enough to point the gun in the direction. So for law enforcement it is maybe a good think but for "normal" people it is not necessary but it does not hurt to have a red dot neither.
@@kuessebrama In most cases, I would think, a person would have a hard time claiming self defense at 50 yards.
Good information. Glad won the fight.
If they are shooting at you at 50 yards...it is self defense
@@kevingridermissionair8020 Hence the “in most cases.” But that is incredibly rare.
In 2015 i was standing in a gun and pawn shop talking to the owner. When 5 young men from a different state which only 30 mins away from this location. They got into a argument with the owner over a gun purchase and the transfer of it to there state that they didnt want to deal with. the whole time 1 of them stayed at the front door watching outside, there was a large gun safe for sale towards the back of the gun shop. I slowly worked my way behind it. I had a 1911 with 8+1 rounds. The guys eventually left when the owner threatened to call the police. I remember thinking if this goes down im gonna wish i had back up mags with me. If you carry keep this in mind cause there can always be more then 1 bad guy and they also tend to carry high cap mags as well.
Chris, I just wanted to thank you. I have been watching you for years, and I really appreciate your work. I have learned a heck of a lot from you, and enjoy your informative and very interesting topics. The LG channel is a invaluable resource for the firearms community. Well done.
Chris' messages at the end of these videos are what get me through the day
Me too...
So good.
Dry fire is key regardless of sights used. Trex arms is a great training channel. They had a dude from Japan with no experience with firing real weapons but very experienced with dry fire practice out shooting established vets on the range.
That Japanese guy did really great for a 1st time real gun shooter but he had put in hundreds and hundreds of hours training with airsoft so he had pretty much all the muscle memory movements down he just needed to learn recoil management and how to not flinch during a mini explosion
You can’t dry fire enough and always add in drawing from awkward positions, moving , shooting from cover etc
I don’t care where he’s from, he shouldn’t be out shooting vets on the range, or anywhere for that matter…
@Texican Got a link for that video, please? There's a lot of videos on their page, thanks.
When shooting, it's natural to focus on results on target. But when dry firing, you're only focusing on technique...the fundamentals. I took a class from a guy that emphasized dry firing as the key. When I put it into practice, my jaw fell open when I saw how much better my shooting was the next time I was at the range. One thing he said has always stuck with me, "Shooting is just dry firing with recoil, noise, and results." I'm gonna check out Trex, thanks!
I'll go to what a friend of mine, who is a firearms instructor said. He said, a handgun in a reactive weapon used to save your life. If you expect a gun fight, always carry a rifle.
Like the old saw goes in law enforcement, "The purpose of your handgun is to allow you to fight your way back to your patrol vehicle to retrieve your long gun."
Exactly, which is why a red dot on a pistol is probably one of the worst trends I've seen in the gun industry.
But sadly, cops still rush into gunfights and probable gunfights leaving the long gun in the patrol vehicle. Maybe the long guns are too hard to extract - dunno. But there has to be a solution.
@@Jammaster1972, the desire to be better prepared encourages folks to spend money, sometimes, on things that they don’t need.
As does a pistol-mounted light just makes it less-likely to be carried and take longer to deploy.
LEO’s should certainly carry both, but the average joe isn’t hunting bad guys, his job is to create distance and get to safety.
Job #1: avoid, if at all possible, those bad situations.
@@thoughtfulobserver2263 Could not have said that better.
Legal knowledge is as important in concealed carry as the gun itself.
Great breakdown. I have had two threatening and potentially dangerous encounters in my life. Neither went completely south but both could have. Had engagement occurred, both would have been 5-7 yards. Both situations were in wilderness settings and I could have legally been carrying BUT WASN'T! In my later years (like now) I don't make that mistake.
Massive props for keeping the LE vs defensive minded citizen distinction in mind.
Col. Cooper must be giving a wink from wherever he is now.
Wouldn’t officer fatality distances tell us to be more skilled at close distances? Faster draw times, point shooting, lack of hesitation, situational awareness.
What the stats on Officer fatalities is missing is how many of the incidents were ambush attacks, and how many were situations where both parties were shooting.
Not only what @justin blower was saying, but they're wearing a uniform and are full on open carrying. That duty belt.... The badge, and the patches....
@@sammaupin3677 cops are targeted because that are cops, not because they are open carrying. In my 44 years, some of which were in law enforcement, I've never seen or heard of an incident when someone was targeted because of open carry.
@@thatrealba I think the point is making is you can SEE they're armed. You're not going to stand 10ft away and threaten them with a knife like you might a private citizen you don't know is armed.
@@MA-hc6mb maybe so 🤷♂️
I've thwarted two robberies with my J frame. Furthest person was about 10 ft.
I was just about to ask if a revolver can still be used for protection your post answered that.
Two???
And here I am not getting any action.
@@vilenationgaming Im now up to three. You dont want action. Seriously.
@@BirdDogey1amen to that. But carry but don’t ever want to have to use it
Jack Wilson the Texas church security shooting was at least 30 feet (and a head shot).
A *moving* head shot to boot. I estimated the distance closer to 15 yards. Excellent shot.
@@joebob617 I had a hard time trying to establish distance. Like you said, excellent shot.
True, but it's very much an outlier
And good on him for keeping his composure to make that shot.
The rule of three's makes a bit of sense, given that you're supposed to be DEFENSIVE. But it's only a "general rule."
A lot of this boils down, sadly, to local laws. I come from the Buckeye State and up until quite recently we were not a stand your ground state. The rule I was taught by my class instructors, both of whom were SWAT for local large departments, was train up to seven yards for defense. Farther than that could be very tricky to justify in a legal context. So we were taught drills all the way from 0-7 yards.
Now they also taught combat handgun, which trained to 25 yards, but 1) I could never afford it and 2) there was a very distinct difference between defensive handgun and combat handgun. Defensive handgun we all had Shields, G43's, my PPK, a Sig238, even a few J-Frames. Combat handgun always had Glock 17's, Sig P229's and 226's, so on and so forth. So it's important, in my mind, to determine your style of carry early on. Are you taking a defensive mentality, or a combat mentality? Pick one and train that way.
It's also why I took up a martial arts class. In close quarters if you're attacker is a lot stronger than you are you're going to have a heck of a time retrieving your handgun. Having some martial arts gives you skills and moves you can use to help disengage from a hand to hand engagement and allow you time to get breathing space and retrieve your weapon.
Bottom line, if you carry, train for what your local laws permit, and if you're of a defensive mentality or a combat mentality. Train as often as you can afford, and back up your handgun with something else; martial arts, a knife, what have you. Always have a plan D, because A-C can go to crap in a hurry.
And always assume if you have 1 threat, you have 2, if you have 2 you have 4, and if you have 4 you have 8. And if you get to 8, then I'm screwed because my PPK only holds 7 rounds.
I agree in Oklahoma 20 feet is where you are allowed to use deadly force if someone poses a threat to you so that’s what I train at I sometimes carry a Glock 19. But I mainly carry a Ruger EC9
Inserting deadly force into a fist fight or grappling fight will get you thrown in jail in most cases. Peter spray is a great disengagement tool in these cases.
@@richardthomas6602 if it works on the first try yes I will use it but if it fails and the individual is still a threat then deadly force is a last resort
@@Platano_macho - So...in Oklahoma, what if someone poses a threat to you beyond 20-feet? Can you not defend yourself? Or do you just automatically go to jail?
@@TrueOpinion99 beyond 20 ft you’re pushing your ground may be charged with something else
Chris: I used to teach concealed carry classes (really teach -- not just show videos). All of my students' concerns centered on home break-ins, car jacking, robberies and rapes. All those occur at damn near bad breath distance. Maybe you can come up with other examples of when civilians use their guns, but that has to be the vast majority at least in the city and suburbs. Good video.
You expressed what I was thinking during this video. Though basic marksmanship skills are valuable, do you train your students to point shoot at less than 6’?
@D J Robbers and rapists don't work at a distance. They are in your face. Car jackings -- the same: they have to get you out of the car. Home break-ins may open up the distances a bit, but we're still talking top distances are room to room. Cordially, Ron
@@EchoSigma6 I tell my students to hold the gun in a low ready so the sights are visible if you look for them (if the gun is pointed too far downward - you lose the sights). The idea is that when you bring the gun up and out the sights should be available. Even if you're looking at the bad guy, the sights should be down in front of you. I used to shoot 10,000 shots a year out of my handguns -- so I got pretty good at seeing where the sights were pointing even if the gun wasn't really high enough for true sight alignment (your brain kind of triangulates and does the math for you). I guess that equates to point shooting. As a general rule I taught folks to aim when you can, point when you have to -- but practice!!! Another big issue is that bad guys are a lot LOT faster than we imagine. We have to be ready to act quickly, so even when we aim, we'll be lucky to barely "grab" a sight picture (especially on follow-up shots), so focus hard on the bad guy and "see" the sights fuzzy.
@D J I get your point, and largely agree, but some folks don't do anything naturally with a gun. There are some real klutzy people out there that have learn everything with guns and how to shoot them. One issue is their trigger pulls are so bad, they stop trusting their eyes when they see they are missing and just start yanking the trigger.
@D J That's a hoot!!! I was thinking though that after the shooting starts we'll be smelling a lot more than dog farts!!!!
This is awesome. As a person who has tried to gather this info over the years, thanks for compiling all this. It's a lot of effort and it's much appreciated.
No matter what , always practice SOME point shooting
Exactly.
And just one handed shooting in general, as it happens a lot more often than you’d expect in a time where everyone’s using two handed methods.
Point shooting gets weird interpretations, the truth of it is that you use as much sight as you need to. At 30 yards I’m going to make sure my front sight is absolutely centered, at three feet I can make solid meaningful hits with the gun at the navel if I need to.
@@redaethel4619 Yep I practice point shooting with one & two hands . Both ways can work very well with practice . ALSO with a long gun , kind of like 2 handed point shooting , you can shoot well a good distance like that . The POINT is Speed , shoot like you might with no real time to aim & still get good fast hits .
@Dan Jett 🤔
@@HAYAOLEONE Dan’s drunk.
"If I was trying to build a winning football team I wouldn't look at the stats for a losing basketball team." A perfect explanation of why LEOKA stats are not a good choice for informing decisions about how to prepare for private citizen self defense.
Chris. Your a GOAT of rational exploration of a topic. Always thoughtfully constructed and researched presentations on a topic, freely acknowledging limits or where information disparities makes comparisons a challenge. Great job.
My takeaway:
Of the 67 incidents, 3 killed because they were unarmed and unable to defend themselves 😔. Consistently carrying makes a difference..
*and consistently training..
Thank you for answering the question. Yesterday's video had me thinking all day about this question. I carry a Glock 48 with true glow sites. At the range I can hit 25 yards to a few feet. I am 61 years old so I do not see as well as I use to. But I believe I am a fair shot. I do a lot of quick draws at 10 feet with verbal commands. I hit heart lung shot all of the time. I know a red dot would be better at longer distances maybe even at closer. But I carry my pistol in two ways. One in my pocket and the other concealed strong side. The Red dot would work on strong side but not pocket carry. I could get two guns but I have always like the feel of the same. The old saying "beware of the man with one gun for He knows how to use it." So I am still thinking, praying though my choice. Looking forward to the next video.
If the range is short, I use "point shooting" or instinctive fire. If the distance is further, the sights are used. These distances are variable, depending on the skill of each shooter.
Could go John Basilone ww2 style within 10 yards
Exactly.
There's a vintage fbi training film that tells you to just hip fire within 10 yards. I dont know if thats good advice, just putting it here.
@@Fvckyou123 I wonder if it’s like the ww2 training films where they didn’t have time to train with pistols that much so they taught them how to point shoot with your body and it said “there’s a high probability of scoring at least 1 hit in 7 shots like this.”
@@jeffpraterJSF the video is here(ua-cam.com/video/et5FHMwB3gY/v-deo.html) at 2 min 45 sec. It was the real technique because theres no reason to rush fbi training and they thought hip firing or point shooting was faster thus better.
I recently started using pistol red dots. I shoot a half sized silhouettes at 10-15 yards. With little dry fire practice I was having trouble finding the dot. So I started drawing and using the window like a ghost ring sight. At 10 yards it’s 100% on target, so I have 0 concerns about using a red dot for EDC now.
Walther’s latest videos featuring the new PDP, I got one and it’s AWESOME, gives tips and talks about how it was designed for red dots. It’s not the slide cut but the grip that was the main feature for the dot. The grip is designed for more pressure in your grip from your pinky and ring finger. They showed Colion Noir that if your having a problem finding the dot squeeze a little harder with your pinky finger and it will bring the dot right into frame. I mean damnit if they were not correct. I’ll try to find the video and link it but seriously if anyone is having problems finding the dot like Noir was, try it. It really works.
Here is the video that helped me pick up the dot. Plus I bought a Walther PDP and love it. LOVE IT.
ua-cam.com/video/kEKKOkE_haY/v-deo.html
@@Rodzilla5332
Thanks for the link got to try it out now.
What helps is to have your irons 1/3 co-witnessed. You'll always find the dot and if you can't, take a quick peek at the irons and you'll know immediately where the dot is out of frame.
@@Rodzilla5332 check out modern samurai project. That guy is sponcered by Walther and it's a premier red dot instructor. I tone of great info on his UA-cam
I would imagine a large proportion of civilian defensive shooting would occur in a home. If not in a home, at the least indoors. Assuming a typical bedroom or living room isn't more than 20 or so feet across, that would automatically limit the average range of those gunfights.
Assaults outside the home are far more likely, but more people have guns at home than people who carry guns, so you're probably right that most civilian shootings are at home. The majority of the Rangemaster student incidents occurred outside the home, which is probably another reason so few of them have been in the 0-2 yard range.
Avoid situations likely to result in physical conflict. Don’t aggress. Sleep next to a rifle. Carry a concealed pistol. Practice with both. Kill things and eat them.
Gospel
True king
My wife identifies as an ar15.
@@john091077 I identify as a fully vaccinated person.
@@john091077
Hold her close
My friends Grandfather was a Marine Raider in WW2.
His lesson to his Grandson--“ If you are shooting a pistol in combat and are using the sights--you are probably shooting too darn slow”
Ed Lovette, in his snub nose revolver book, has some civilian gunfights statistics and they correspond with the rule of 3.
Excellent commentary! Even before the next video, this teaches us all a valuable lesson...PRACTICE! Practice manipulating your firearm of choice at 3 yards, then at 1 yard, and 6.25 yards, then at 4.38 feet, then up-close & personal, then at 13 feet, then leaning on something, then on the ground, then on your side, then hiding behind, maybe shoot at 15 yards...You get the picture. At the indoor gun range, don't just stand there, you've got 2 feet on either side of you too...move side to side if you're allowed, etc! Can't wait for your next video, Chris!
While shooting my Glock 34 that I use for uspsa I started questioning how much I was actually using my sights. Particularly at closer shots under 10 yards I felt like I was looking over the sights and either not using them at all or very little and became concerned it was building bad habits. One day, without noticing my rear sight shifted to the left. Enough to see if you looked but not a huge amount that felt off when lining up for closer shots. All of the sudden I went from pretty decent center of mass hits to just missing b zone targets off to the side. Shot a few rounds before stopping to figure out what was up. Easy fix but on the plus side I realized how much I was actually seeing and using my sights, even up close.
I know red dots are the future and I’m slowly getting accustomed to using one but for me there 2 factors holding me back.
1. Having over a decade of training/practice/competition with irons, they are faster within 15 yards for me. Training issue, i know.
2. With carry, HD, and competition, I use 4-5 different pistols and putting a quality RMR on all of them would be extremely expensive.
While I agree that a vast majority of engagements will be well under 10yds, I’d say it’s also a good idea to prepare for the worst case scenario. You may be the outlier that needs to take a shot at 15+ yards, so train with your setup to make sure you can do it if the need arises.
Definitely appreciate your attempt to come up with real numbers. During my CPL course here in Michigan, we shoot at 3 yards and 7 yards. They also tell us that most encounters happen at 7 yards or less. I think sights are a reference that become more important the further the distance of the object. I definitely don't think that a red dot for carry improves in these two ranges. For more detailed shooting like pest removal or target shooting at short range, they are somewhat helpful.
Hey Chris,
Solid information as usual. I'm currently reading Tom Givens' book Concealed Carry Class so I was happy your referenced it. I think the most important key to being prepared for self defense is to get training. The ability to work through different scenarios in a class setting let's you figure out what you need to do in the event you need to deploy your gun. And if sights (RDS or iron) are needed. Thanks for all the great videos.
Another great video by Lucky Gunner. Your clarity on gun issues is refreshing
Retired LEO here. Even in qualification I do point shooting only at 3-5 yards. More than that I will try to use a quick sighting with the sights. I only have iron sights. They never fail. Training for short range accuracy should focus on grip and presentation over sight picture. I still raise the weapon up near my line of sight rather than hip shooting. At close contact a close to the body hip shot may be called for. So maybe some practice would be warranted.
Guess what, im more accurate with my rmr, therefore im carrying my firearm with an rmr. Use what works best for you.
I’m more accurate AND faster with a red dot pistol 👍🏽
I agree with you on that. I was hesitant to go with the red dot at first. Now I’m loving it. I’m far more accurate at all distances with the dot. I believe they are the future.
Woah, look at Mr. Bill Gates with his fancy pants rmr... Lol jk
Use what works best for u is good advice.
You can’t cheat or substitute the basic fundamentals of pistol shooting. Build a foundation then branch out from there.
Good video. What wasn’t discussed was hit/miss ratios. When I used to teach this stuff “trained officers” MISSED 80% of the time. I don’t know what the current stats are but wouldn’t be surprised if it isn’t similar. 8 out of 10 rounds are heading into the community (mall, church, school, park, roadway, etc.) at 1000+ft/sec, and that doesn’t count any pass-through projectiles. Point shooting out to 15’ is a good idea; enhanced sighting systems for distances over that seems a prudent option.
Fantastic video. Whittling down a ridiculous amount of variables into a reasonable summation. Thank you for the hours you’ve saved us.
Something that is extremely useful is training with contact and resistance against armed and unarmed foes, at within arms reach distance, practicing deploying your various implements under pressure.
I trained regularly with a group that did mostly FMA (Filipino Martial Arts), but also Grappling and various weapons.
We would train getting our training knives 🔪 (fixed and folders) out and deployed while being punched or grappled. We worked on getting out items into the fight from various positions, on the ground, on our backs, etc while someone wearing MMA gloves wails on you! It’s great training that helps prepare you for real encounters.
this has little to do with red dots and everything to do with carrying a round in the chamber.
For a while now, I haven't seen anyone who doesn't carry chambered. I used to know one guy that wouldn't carry chambered due to fear of NDs, but he came around about 2.5 years ago.
Or carry a revolver, since striker AD/ND'S are a lot more common than defensive encounters.
@@yunggolem4687 new gun owners, people who don't research PROPERLY, and gun fudds that live by outdated firearm mechanics and safety training.
I’d also say dry firing is key as well
I’d also say dry firing is key as well
Re: Gunfight distances, 1 common factor.
“Most civilian altercations not involving the IMMEDIATE need to get very close to a victim to commit a crime, happen within basic speaking/hearing distances without having to raise the voice to shouting levels to be heard, at the outset of an altercation. The majority of any kind of fight, usually starts with some kind of spoken communication.
That distance is not often over the distance of moderate human hearing .”
Charles V.
I would think that the engagement distance for civilians would be more likely closer rather than farther.
This is primarily due to the premise that the likelihood of a defensive shooting is directly proportional to how quickly the threat is identified, and can be determined to be an imminent & deadly.
At the end of the day the majority of attackers are going to be closing distance on you so unless you identify them as an attacker at 100 yards aways they're going to be within close range. Unless gang warfare or some unorthodox shit like that
Outside my own bedroom and bedroom hallway I have no moral obligation to close the range. As a civilian I can run away bravely. "Stop. Leave me alone. Go away..."
By contrast the LEO must close the range and end the engagement.
@Henry Murphy You mention some topics that are a great mystery to professionals and laymen alike. Where will the attack come from, and at what distance? In my years of gun packing and concerns, from a vehicle it could be 20 yards, from a parking lot, 30 feet to 3 feet? I used to practice at 20 yards, now it's down to 20 ft, and my carry guns are smaller. Pace of the distance across a McDonalds, and it's about 30 ft. I now think about just getting the gun out and fire based on getting the sights on the target, or gap shooting off the end of the pistol barrel at closer ranges. Having experience at shooting longer ranges with pistols, I can figure out the needed sight hold. God help us all if we ever need to draw our weapons. The 'law' would never be on our side, but semi directed grazing fire might save your life; that never seems to be mentioned; every instance won't be a clean draw, or a person having a perfectly squared up target standing still for you to shoot.
Yup, it's kind of hard to rob someone from 20 yards away. Chances are pretty good that they will be much closer before they make a move.
@@tedb.5707 To your first comment I agree very much. I can't imagine a situation where a person in my home gets more than one warning shout.
As for your second comment about a LEO's obligations. No such obligation exists. In the USA LEOs have NO DUTY TO PROTECT the public. None, not even a little. The courts have ruled on this and it is settled law. An officer can stand by and watch you get murdered and do NOTHING and they have done nothing wrong. So, long as they arrest your murder and or write a report. They have no responsibility to protect you.
Most civilian self defense situations will indeed be robbery or personal harm/bodily injury…both require relatively close proximity. Front yard, inside your home, transitional areas. 0-20’ seems most reasonable. 60’ or more seems to be a stretch for self defense when in front of a jury.
When the adrenaline hits, muscle memory is what you're left with. Beware of the old man with one handgun.
Not that old bullshit again. You might just be saying we should beware the old man who bought a gun 30 years ago, stuck it in a drawer, and hasn't picked it up since...
I am an old man.... 72 years old.... I have a 1991 Taurus #85... it has been my only CCW since then... 30 years, only handgun I carry and practice with regularly. At 21feet I can shoot 50 rounds reloading 5 rounds at a time - nonstop! It has a Crimson Red Dot installed along with a trigger and hammer jobs. I can and still do- place 49 out of 50 shots in the palm of YOUR HAND! I firmly believe that if one can keep all rounds in a tight center mass they should aim for the bridge of the nose instead of the chest. No body armour for the nose.
The 50th round was down and left 1 1/2" of outside fired pattern.
I’m laughing with you at this. When I became a fed we spent an unbelievable amount of time in firearms training. The purpose behind it all? Muscle memory.
This video had me taking in every word, what a compelling subject matter. A few months ago I saw a video by Warrior Poet Society on close distance shooting and how shots by trained police missed 80% and the actual hits were low. Ever since then I started practicing what he showed. I also watch James Yeager.
Regardless, shoot what you can land consistent hits with, and do your best to avoid analysis paralysis, which is much harder than it used to be. 😔
Be aware of your surroundings everywhere and especially gas stations.
In the Atlanta area, it seems there is a shooting at a gas station every week and sometimes more. I find myself more aware when pumping gas than most any other time. Regardless, being situationally aware is your first line of defense. The sooner you identify the potential danger, the more time you have to react and respond.
When I'm at the gas station I take the keys out of the ignition, into my pocket or hooked onto a belt loop, and I lock the doors. Plus I carry.
Good advice....
@@lentzquest They pulled them at my go2 station. Mega annoying distraction!
Exactly!!@@melancholydawg
At 10 yards and beyond it is difficult to tell if you are going to be attacked. If the attacker is intended on attacking you and he’s at 10 yards you have to wait until he comes a little closer to determine what his intentions are. The closer he gets the more assured you are if he is going to attack you. His intentions can be determined by his facial expression, his vocabulary and his gestures and pace at which he is walking. Assuming that all happened he will be at about 5 yards or less in a matter of seconds. At that time, you have to be sure that he is going to attack you before you pull your weapon out. Therefore, it is fair to say that a lot of attacks will be at 5 yards or less. Remember, you have to make that determination and you must be sure of what you’re doing. You could be taking an innocent life. Therefore, you need to know what actions by an assailant Contribute to an attack on you. Now 5 yards is 15 feet about the distance of the length of a car. He needs to get that close or your determination to be correct and legal. So this guy isn’t too far off.. remember you are not a cop.
Excellent video. MUCH more needs to be done on subjects like this.
FWIW personally that so many are close in is why I do two things that aren't so common these days. Carry a 45 and carry a fixed blade knife.
The 45 is about the fact that I want the fastest incapacitation possible. I consider it unlikely that capacity will truly matter, that time will only allow for a few rounds before I've either won or lost. Those few rounds need to do as much as possible.
The knife is because so many attacks are physical contact, grappling type attacks. For those a gun is the wrong tool, a knife is a far superior tool.
It's also why I'm opposed to appendix carry, the draw is to easy to pin, too hard to turn away from the attacker, and too hard to do one handed.
And again it's why when I train my draw I do NOT practice extending my arms before firing. My first round off is point shooting from retention with one hand.
That said I just bought my first pistol red dot. The new ACSS Vulcan convinced me it was worth it.
45s and 357 mags are the only 2 cartridges that have a 95%+ one shot stop.
@@sloppyfloppy79 Finally someone else on the internet who knows the actual data.
Finally, some stats to at least have a baseline to have a realistic discussion on distance(s) of a typical gunfight. One may want to take it with a grain of salt but it is something to consider when training for self-defense with a weapon. Thanks for the info.
Also, just look around next time you’re out in public and imagine scenarios where you would be in danger. Like walking down a sidewalk and you see someone approaching you. Visualize what that confrontation would be like given the environment around you. I would wager that almost all would be in the 3 foot to 10 foot range.
In most situations its someone approaching you. It's hardly ever a parking lot wide standoff like movies depict.
I was involved in two shootings as a police officer that resulted in someone being shot.
The first in 1986, started at around 35 ft. and ended with the suspect being shot at around 60 ft.
The second in 1992, started as an ambush from around 100 ft. and ended with a suspect being shot and killed at around 12 ft. There was also a blood trail leading away from the ambush site that started around 80-90 ft. From our position at the start, that subject was never found.
You can take a number of shootings and divide by total distance and arrive at an average, but in reality, there is no typical distance.
Are these stats accurate? You be the judge.
Edit: Stats are easy to find. Accurate statistics not so much.
100% some is fiction or no info at all
Is this "Joe?"
I see you are a man of culture.
Ahh a connoisseur
OK, Paul.
Thanks for this video.
In another one, you mention Tom Given's book. In this one, he mentions that his clients who had to défend their lives had engagements at "car length". Engagements under two yards are rare. So are engagements beyond 7.
He also mentions that incidents with two agressors are frequent.
This is why my conceal carry is a LAW rocket 🚀 as long as I don’t mount a vertical fore grip on it. Perfect for every occasion.
Interesting, I might switch. I've been concealed carrying my mosin nagant 91/30 and it's been a pain in my ass
Dont forget to mention the ladies love you when they see the big rocket in the pants.
MG-42 for me. Accept no substitute
@BrandonB lmao, that’s my secret. Can’t rope em in with the truck I drive
There was a shooting on the news last week in my area. Between parked cars on one side of the street and parked cars on the other side of the street. I could count up to 15 empty cases on the ground one side of the street and not know exactly how many on the other side it looks like there was another equal amount of 15 empty. That means that there were no less than 30 rounds fired during that gunfight. Nobody was using a snubby or a small concealed handgun. That distance was about 50 feet. You’re under the presumption that somebody’s gonna jump in front of you and be about 3 feet from you And demand your wallet.
Id argue most civilians are ambushed by criminals vs police being an obvious threat to the criminal for much farther away
Objective of a criminal is usually to steal. They must be near enough to communicate and threaten. Usually they want you to hand them your wallet, keys, phone, etc... which means they're within about 2 yards. And if you've watched videos of armed robberies, it's usually more like 1 yard. Standing close also provides intimidation value, even though it's tactically detrimental.
Absolutely. Dirtbags are much less likely to confront a cop. It's their method of choice against what they believe is a soft target.
@@yunggolem4687 yeah
And your fight doesn't magically end when you shoot at them, but they are likely to open the distance.
@@conorfoster2337 use a better gun?
Thank you Chris 4 compiling all this info. Info that is hard to get.
One important thing I gathered from this information is the importance to maintain a round in the chamber. The speed of incident is so fast you will never be able to rack the slide of a pistol. The advantage to a revolver for always having a full cylinder. Ready for immediate use.
Excellent information!
Thank you for researching and compiling the data.
My cwp instructor as well as several others I have talked to taught us 3/3/3. Most self defense confrontations are three seconds, 3 yards, three shots.
Kinda wish the data specified "indoor" and "outdoor" shooting incidents. This is essentially comparing door breaches to sideways traffic stops, but without labeling which is which.
For what it's worth, the overwhelming majority of the Rangemaster student incidents were outside the home.
Love your videos. Your spot on, on so many issues. Thanks.
Thanks for presenting this real world commentary Chris !
Great presentation and service. Situational awareness is always a priority. Retired Detroit PD and "civilianized" I find verbally or visually acknowledging a threat throws them.out of their zone and therefore their guard and awareness many times eliminating any threat. God bless, thanks and stay safe and healthy.👮
I watch your videos for the useful information, I appreciate them for the amazing production quality, but the song lyric easter eggs are absolutely gold.
Am I sensing another episode of "stuff Chris and John want to know"?
Outstanding. One of the best analyses of any complex subject I've heard in a long time.
“Hey you!” “You over there!!! I’m yelling at you! This is a robbery! I said THIS IS A ROBBERY!”
Maybe we need artillery. Maybe only LEOs need red dots.
I am thinking the best solution for many areas of the country is the 280mm atomic cannon.
The problem with the 3-5 yard figure is that people use it as a yardstick for performance, as in "if I can hit a silhouette at 3-5 yards, I'm good enough so there is no point in shooting a B8 at 10 to 25 yards".
But that would be like saying that there is no point in working up to benching 225, squatting 315 and deadlifting 405, because the heaviest object you would ever need to lift in real life will almost never be over 50-100 pounds. We all know that being able to safely and efficiently move oddly shaped objects with no handles like 50 pound bags of cement or furniture items in real life corresponds to much higher numbers on gym lifts which are performed with ideally shaped and balanced weight under ideal conditions following an anatomically perfect movement pattern. Same goes for shooting on the range under ideal conditions and for shooting in self defense.
Well, you know, the more shit you bolt on to your carry, the more badass you are. Period.
This touches on my issues of AR 15 training so much for a close dirty pistol fight. Most people don't carry rifles all the time.
Tons of clear science and data to understand a complicated and emotional topic, plus a Journey reference at the end?!?
Genius! 😁👍😎
My friend was forced to shoot someone about 10 years ago. He doesn’t like to talk about it, but I do know he fired 10 rounds with his Glock and hit the guy 7 times without using the sights. Also they were close enough to have a short verbal exchange before the shooting started. (Don’t know the true distance, and I’m not going to ask)
so all that info is just useless an a bit stupid to share
@@reserva120 if you were smart you'd realize from what he said that in a blink of an eye no matter at what distance you end up shooting more than expected for a gun fight without using much of that training people always tell others to take.
Your comment is way less relevant and a lot more “useless”.
I provided a simple datapoint that is very relevant to this video and the previously mentioned video about red dot sights. Sorry the police didn’t give him a report that said “the shots were fired from exactly 8 yards away” or something like that. He was happy enough to not be charged with a crime and to get his guns back. And I didn’t want to make up a number when I don’t know exactly. There’s already enough made up statistics out there as it is.
@@xdfanatic Tony I think were all humans an being together while being apart promotes diversity
Your friend doesn't remember using his sights. That doesn't mean he didn't. Its not uncommon for those involved in a gunfight to have no recollection of acquiring a sight picture before firing.
I shot a criminal during patrol in the Tampa PD .... (7) times with my S&W 5906 (9mm) during a traffic stop in 1985 and all body shots and the guy survived and served 15 years and is now walking around and working ...... The shootout happened within 10 feet ......
But still practice at greater distance. If you're good further out then under stress then you'll be decent to good close in.
Your techniques are differernt for close encounters than longer distances.
YES, so much this. I thought I was doing good when I was shooting tight rapid fire groups at 15 yards, then I reached out to a whopping 25 yards and I was all OVER the place. I had to slow way down and build my speed back up, then my groups at 15 were even tighter.
Anyone who has really practiced long knows why you go short it's WAY easier. I've done it. It helped me tremendously.
@@kennethcurtis1856 Not really unless you're talking point shooting and retention training
Very well done. Chris bustin' out the classic rock references is just the cherry on top.
I live in California. I believe I would have a very difficult time defending myself in court claiming self defense if my alleged assailant was very far away. It would be difficult to be convincing that someone across the street, for example, was a threat to my life. So I envision any self defense shooting I would be doing would be relatively close. It is also illegal for me to brandish a weapon to scare someone off. So that means the state expects me to quickly draw and fire, or shoot though my pocket. Both of these negate the need for good sights. The reality is I think the main time I would have gun in hand would be for a home intruder. In this case I believe something like the red dot sights would be an advantage, especially in low light situations.
extrapolate indoor shootings : most interior spaces 15'-30' max dimensions
extrapolate exterior shootings : voice range OR long distance ambush. dont forget vehicles
3-5 yards sounds like offices n homes vs malls and lecture halls
thanks mate
Good analysis, as always. Inside 10 feet I'm "point shooting". Beyond that, I have time to acquire the target using my red dot.
110% of the time its at exactly 16 feet and 3 inches!
Can I see some proof to that claim? My entire paternal line for 489 years have come to the conclusion that 15 feet and 9 inches is the best distance
Unless it's a 1911 or P320 then it's whenever the gun wants to go.
Somebody told me that 4 inches is infact 100% normal. So I was like cool, that's the distance I will practice with then.
No no no! Between 5' to 13'4"
Living in the countryside in a farm or so REALLY expands the distance of such encounters.
When I go to the range Iv'e started going back to around 25 yards and dong a type of "Jack Wilson" drill, a cold draw from concealment with one shot to the head of the target. With my ageing eyes using an optic has greatly improved my hit %.
Greg Ellifritz studied something like 1,700 police shootings. He might be able to put the gun fight distances intom prespective for you. He is a great teacher. I met him at the Revolver Round-Up 2020 after I saw the class on your channel.
If you conceal carry, in the time it takes you to assess the situation, get your hand under your shirt, pull, aim and fire your weapon, you will be dead, if the person is only 3 yards away and attacking you.
I love this video because it is very informative and detailed.
"The FBI has been telling us for years..." #bearwiththebackgroundnoise #shatneresquepauses #fitsmyhandbetter
A man of culture I see
Has it though
You be the judge
Excuse my speech impediment
My only incident involved a guy who broke into my first apartment right after my discharge from the Marines. I heard a window break at around 2am. I grabbed my double-barrel 12-gauge, 28" barrel, one side loaded with a slug and the other with buck. This was before cell phones, and my phone was in the kitchen. I slowly waked out and about 12-15 feet from me was the burglar. He saw he with the shotgun and went to his knees and begged me not to shoot him. I called the police as he lay quivering on the floor. The police came, arrested him, and he thanked me for not blowing him away. This guy was scared to death. (edited, spelling error)
Awesome, Love The 1970's Journey Song Reference: "Don't Stop Believing!".
Data is realistic if thousands of cases of individual gunfights are collected, analyzed and tabulated. Without adequate numbers, no reasonable conclusions can be made and analysis suffers from the low numbers. It is my humble opinion this video is the best interpretation of gunfight distance from the number of gunfight incidents gathered from various sources at the moment.
Interesting information. So basically concentrate training from the range of zero to 7 yards. Also put in distance training but concentrate on that range.
If I had younger eyes I would do the 15 yards head shots but that’s very unrealistic on a moving target at my age. I do the Mozambican drill at 7 yards. I only use Iron sights. Works for me so far.
Wonder when pocket 9mm that hold 10+ rounds are going to start affecting the number of rounds fired?
Good stuff. It's very refreshing to hear an objective analysis in this world of bad information and even worse analysis.
In the army I carried an M1911 with iron sights. I had no problem hitting targets at 25 meters with the crude sights on the issued pistol. I doubt I would ever get into a gunfight with pistols at that range. FBI says most officer death shootings are at around 0-5 feet. They train for shooting at that distance and weapon’s retention, otherwise they use the Weaver stance and train for about 7 yards or 21 feet. You can train to silhouette your weapon so that the sights are basically aligned with a target at that range for quick acquisition. I’m not going to worry about red dot sights laser sighting. At that range. I train to get the weapon on target quickly. I want to bring the weapon up muscle memory into position ready to shoot. I will train to shoot to these distances, 0-5 feet for close in striking range, and close range and 0-21 feet/ 7 yards for that knife running range. And further out but from a solid stance or position at a range that is the maximum distance in my home. Any longer distance you should be able to retreat to safety. I look at the possibility of legal liability of shooting with souped up weapons in the eyes of a jury. My 1911 is standard with 7 round magazines. No adjustable sight, compensators. Etc. just a factory gun. I’m planning on getting a simple revolver. With either 2-4 inch barrel. And a couple of speed loaders.