Calvinistic Proof Texts for Determinism | Soteriology 101 | Dr. Leighton Flowers
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- Опубліковано 3 лис 2024
- Dr. Brian Wagner, Instructor of Theology, Church History, and Biblical Languages at Veritas Baptist College, joins Dr. Leighton Flowers to talk about the most common proof texts used by Calvinists to prove theistic determinism (the concept that God decrees whatsoever comes to pass) ---such as Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Ps. 139:16 and Lam. 3:37-38. JOIN US FOR A LIVE DISCUSSION!
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Thanks for watching.
Calvinist here, and I appreciate you fellas!
Why not convert to Christianity???
@@gregorylatta8159 I am just determined to do whatever I’m determined to do :D
Dr. Flowers , ive been watching your videos since the beginning. Sometimes I hear other people speaking truth but with anger and or sarcasm in their tone.....and I usually just stop listening to them . However , over the years you have consistently modeled how to speak in love and with respect which shows the integrity of your character. Good job. Thank you much !!
Dr. Flowers,
I am absolutely heartbroken. I had lunch today with a friend who leans Reformed and mentioned struggling with doubts a few weeks ago. Out of his own mouth came the words, “Maybe God just hasn’t chosen me.” I know people like Derek Webb have said this, but I’ve never heard someone I know personally say this. We talked about God’s love and provision for all people, and I am praying and hoping to have more conversations with him. Please pray for him; his name is Sam.
I am possibly having the same issue as your friend sam due to romans 9 an Paul's very hard to understand writing keep me in prayer aswell
@@fadedhope5 Praying for you right now, brother. I advise you to continue to listen to what Dr. Flowers has to say or even pick up a copy of “The Potter’s Promise”. Even as a non-Calvinist, I didn’t quite know what to do with Romans 9-11, but Dr. Flowers helped me see how I wasn’t taking the whole passage in the context of the whole of Scripture.
I mean I’ve had Arminian friends believe they’ve lost there salvation. Assurance is an issue on both sides.
@@masonmcgahey7 I’m not trying to debate you, dude. I have a friend who is struggling with following Christ (in his case, because of a particular theological perspective) and have asked for prayers. That’s what this comment is about.
To clarify, I would 100% of the time rather someone be a Calvinist Christian than be an atheist. Would you rather someone be a Provisionist Christian than an atheist? If so, why bother commenting this way on my comment? If not, what does that say about your theological perspective?
@@ryanhoward8694 I would rather a person be a Catholic Christian, a Reformed Christian, any kind of Christian (affirming the essentials of the faith) than have them choose to stop following Christ. God bless you and I'll keep Sam and Joshua in my prayers as well.
I love it when you have Brian on! I would love it to be in his classroom 🙂 Thank you both for loving and sharing Jesus! Blessings to you both. ❤
Thank you for your kind, encouraging words.
So appreciate when you have Dr. Wagner on! I always learn so much during his interviews!
God bless you both!
Love you both ❤
what a blessing to watch and listen to these two faithful proclaimers of Scripture and humble servants of our Almighty Loving GOD😄
Thank you for your kind, encouraging words!
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
Luke 6:26
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears
2 Tim. 4:3
ARE YOU AN ELECT?
The next acrostic on TULIP systematic is “Unconditional Election”.
According to the Augustinian-Calvinistic teaching, it pertains to the decree of God before the world began that only a portion of humanity shall be included in the company of the redeemed, and that God himself decided who are included without any regard to the individual’s work or decision.
Does this view echo what the Scriptures teach on the concept of election, or even predestination? Another big NO.
In the Bible, we can notice at least three significant nuances of the term “elect” or “chosen” in relation to God’s dealing with people.
The first usage is about God’s choice to raise a nation to be His people who will proclaim His goodness and greatness to other nations of the world. From the lineage of Abraham, that nation is the people of Israel. They are the elect of God as referred to by the apostle Paul on Romans chapter 9 through 11 and in many other passages of Scriptures. They are elected for service by being examples of living in the worship of and submission to the only One and true God , Yahweh (Deuteronomy 6:4). In his letter to the Romans, Paul expressed deep desire for the salvation of his brethren, for most of them rejected Christ. Clearly, God’s choice of national Israel is primarily for service to Him, and not for automatic salvation of those He calls to serve.
The next theme of choosing for service is when Jesus selected the twelve apostles. The verse, ”You did not choose Me, but I chose you…” (John 15:16) was a common proof-text used by some Calvinists to claim a unilateral choice of Christ of those who are saved without considering the proper context that it exclusively refers to the twelve chosen disciples, including Judas Iscariot who later betrayed Jesus and obviously was not saved for being labeled as the “son of perdition”. God’s choosing of people in Scripture is NOT about individual salvation. It is about choosing servants. Consequently, each disciple also has to respond in submission to Jesus’ call to become His disciple, and to put trust in Him as the Messiah in order to be saved. Clearly, Judas did not put faith in Christ, and so he perished.
The third significant use of being chosen or elect is that mentioned in Ephesians chapter 1. The chosen in verse 4 refers to God’s decision in Christ even before the foundation of the world that those who will be in Christ, which happens in time, are predestined to be holy and blameless before Him. The choice of God is what shall take place in the lives of those who are already in Christ. It is not a choice of who will be in Christ or who will be saved before the world began. God’s predestination in relation to people of faith is about the life of sanctification going to glorification (Eph.1:5; Rom.8:23). It is not about justification.
To be in Christ, or to be justified, a person has to respond in belief or by faith to the proclaimed saving grace of God in Christ, the Gospel of Salvation (Eph.1:13). This happens in the person’s lifetime, and not before the world began. This response of faith is God’s revealed and set condition in order for anyone to receive the salvation that Christ has accomplished for sinners. After a response of belief, the person is sealed by the Holy Spirit and has become God’s own possession (Eph.1:14) and is legally included in the chosen in Christ. So, in effect, being included in the “elect”, in this sense, is CONDITIONAL. A response of faith is God’s prescribed condition for anyone to be an “elect or chosen in Christ before the world began”. This election is about already Christians expected to live a life of holiness before God, and not about who will be Christians.
So again, contrary to the Calvinist’s claim, the correct concept of biblical election is actually CONDITIONAL, as God himself set the condition: i.e., a response of faith in Christ.
Unlike what the Calvinist teach about God causing a person to believe by making him alive first by His irresistible grace, the Scriptures teach that the Gospel itself is God’s powerful grace (Romans 1:16) that guides anyone to an understanding of his perishing condition in sin and to receive the offer of salvation by faith in Christ. Through the convicting work of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8-11), the person is being provided a valid opportunity to make a free moral response, either to believe in Christ and be saved, or to reject Christ and remain perishing. This opportunity could happen multiple times in a person’s life until physical death takes over which finally removes any hope of getting saved for those who did not believe. (Hebrews 9:27)
The reader and student of Scripture must be careful not to impose his own ideas to the passage with the orientation he or she has learned from the writings of so-called popular theologians like Augustine of Hippo and John Calvin, and many other current proponents of their same extra-biblical views. The Scriptures must be the final source of truth and authority for belief and living (2Timothy 3:16-17). We must be diligent on taking only the perspective provided by the immediate context of the passage and in connection to other chapters of the selected book, along with its consistency to the rest of the Scriptures.
While the Calvinist/Reformed camp would also claim that they interpret Scriptures considering the principle of context, it is demonstrably clear that their teaching on divine election proves otherwise. Their concept of unconditional election that refers to individual’s predestined salvation is a misrepresentation of God’s character, presenting Him as unjust for pre-selecting only a portion of people He created to be saved and to damn in hell the rest of humanity for a reason beyond their control. That view does not present the just and loving God of the Bible.
The Calvinist may often use the verses from Romans 9:19-21 to silence any objection to their supposed “sovereign choice” or prerogative of God to create some people for glory and some for wrath which says, “On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?.....”, without recognizing the proper historical context on which Paul took it from the book of prophet Jeremiah especially on chapter 18 where it simply expresses the right of God, like the potter, to do to Israel - the clay, what they deserve: blessings for obedience and judgment for disobedience, since they are under covenant with Him. It has nothing to do with God predestining anyone to be born in this world either to spiritual salvation or destruction. God predestines no one to perish, rather, He desires every still living sinner to repent and be saved (2Peter 3:9).
The “Total Depravity” view is not a Scripture teaching, and the “Unconditional Election” view is simply an erroneous understanding of what the Bible teach about God’s choosing or electing. Calvinism’s TULIP as a whole DOES NOT FIT IN CHRISTIANITY'S FLOWERS OF TRUTH. We better listen, believe, and live under the authority of God’s revealed truths, the Holy Scriptures, and not on gnostic ideas of Calvinism exposed above.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and your household. (Acts 16:31)
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. (Ephesians 1:13)
If you will place your faith in Christ as Savior from sin and Lord of your life now, YOU WILL BE AN ELECT. If you have placed your faith in Christ for salvation, YOU ARE INDEED INCLUDED WITH THE ELECT.
A blessed day for the chosen people of God - ONLY IN CHRIST 😀
Just watched this. What a blessing you two are!! Would love to just sit across a table from y’all, sip some coffee/tea and chat. Thanks for all you two do. Have a blessed 2023.
Brian Wagner the theological monster returns. Good to see him back. Giant!
Thank you for your kind, encouraging words!
I love how I can learn a great deal just from reading the title of your videos and looking at the thumbnail
Rather than proving these texts as causal for determinism, Calvinists are casual by determining these texts provide no other possible interpretation.
That is amazing,I've never heard that. "God's judgment on man (pre judgment of Christ) is always to lead them to the cross, it's never to judge sin because that was already done on the cross. That makes sense, thank you!!😇
It would be great to see Dr. Flowers discuss those some Calvinists who deny theistic determinism. I'd like to see how their version of Calvinism actually fit non-determinism with Calvinism at all.
that'd be good 👍
The thing about determinism that gives me pause is knowing that if any person, elect or not, has a desire to sin, that came about because God decreed it to come about. Considering that God could have decreed otherwise if He had wanted to, the only conclusion that makes sense (to me at least) is that God wanted that person to desire to sin. I apologize if this comes off as offensive to my siblings in Christ who happen to be reformed, that's not my intention. God bless.
There is no enemy in Calvinism. God and the devil, and the effectively same person. God is a bipolar, narcissistic tyrant who punches his kids and says, "look what you did!" and then marvels at himself bragging about how holy he is and if you don't accept that that is somehow true, then you are a lesser Christian than one who can appeal to mystery in religious false humility and just accept that.
Not being able to discern who is a "brother", would be like not being able to discern the Gospel message from a lie. If they follow and teach another gospel, it's simple to know they aren't in the family.
The problem with your comment is that alot of people can't tell the difference from err to preaching a different gospel, alot of people disagree with someone theologically and accuse him of preaching a different gospel, which is wrong. Take for example alot of Calvinist who accuse Arminians and others of preaching a different gospel but yet Calvinism comes from Manachianism. "God's solid foundation stands firm sealed with this inscription: The Lord knows who are His." So according to Scripture sometimes is not easy to discern false brethren.
DW: Very insightful point! And when you unpackage the doctrine of decrees - you eventually come to the place where you realize - in Calvinism - the human brain is not granted a choice between TRUE and FALSE on any matter. Thus in Calvinism - the human brain is not granted the ability to discern TRUE from FALSE on any matter.
@@Obrandoporlaverdad
REVELATION 7:9
(Genesis 35:11) And God said unto him, be fruitful and multiply; a NATION and a "COMPANY" of NATIONS shall be of thee, and KINGS shall come out of thy LOINS
(Genesis 48:19-20) And he blessed them that day, saying God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set EPHRAIM BEFORE MANASSEH
he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his SEED shall become a MULTITUDE OF "NATIONS"
(Exodus 19:6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of PRIESTS and an HOLY NATION These are the words which thou shalt speak unto THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL
(Isaiah 61:6) But YE shall be named the "PRIESTS" of the Lord: men shall call YOU the Ministers of OUR God ye shall EAT the RICHES of the GENTILES, and in their glory shall ye boast YOURSELVES
(1st Peter 2:9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal "PRIESTHOOD" an HOLY NATION, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
(Revelation 1:5-6) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness and the Prince of the "KINGS" of the earth. Unto him that loved US, and washed US from our SINS in his own blood and hath made US KINGS and PRIESTS unto God and his Father
(Revelation 5:9-10) for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation and hast made US unto OUR God "KINGS" and "PRIESTS" and WE shall reign on the earth
It's about the Israelites from Genesis to Revelation NOT heathen
@@dw6528 Thank you for your insights. Can you please tell me more about the calvinist doctrine of decrees? Or point me to videos or websites with more information. I keep bumping into calvinists who assume a (grand) decree, but can only provide several unconvincing verses cobbled together. Thank you.
@@LindsayJackel DW: Thanks Lindsay. Calvinism's doctrine of decrees has its inception first with Augustine - whom John Calvin held in an almost worshipful adoration.
The foundational core of the doctrine is philosophical in nature. Augustine was a disciple of Gnosticism - and then a disciple of NeoPlatonism (doctrines of Plotinus) for the rest of his life.
Augustine was an intellectual who relied on conceptions from both systems in the development of his theology.
Two components which both existed within Gnosticism and NeoPlatonism are
1) DUALISM (where things appear in the form of antithetical pairs). Good and Evil are "Co-equal", Co-Complimentary" and "Co-necessary".
You will observe many things appear in the form of antithetical - or "Good-Evil" pairs within Calvinism.
2) Determinism: This is where Calvinism gets its doctrine of decrees.
There is a problem however - trying to get a TRUE picture of Determinism from Calvinist sources - because the vast majority of Calvinists struggle are trying to evade what Determinism gives them. So many Calvinist sources are plagued with DOUBLE-SPEAK because they are trying to evade and deny the foundational core of the doctrine.
You have to sift through Calvinist sources to find Reformed authors who are willing to speak TRUTHFULLY about it.
John Calvin states it this way:
-quote
The creatures...are so governed by the secret counsel of god, that *NOTHING HAPPENS* but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (Institutes 1. 16. 3)
Calvinist Tom Hicks (Founders Ministries)
-quote
God comprehensively decrees all things (On The Decrees)
Westminster confession
-quote
Angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed. (Chapter 3 god's eternal decree)
Calvinist R.C. Sproul
-quote
“…if we don’t say that god predestines *ALL* things, we don’t have a god at all. (Doctrine of reprobation - ligonier.org)
Calvinist William E. Wenstrom
-quote
The divine decrees are the eternal plan by which God has RENDERED-CERTAIN *ALL* the events of the universe, including both angelic and human history-past, present and future.
I have not listened this whole video but have listened to others. I have some questions for Mr. Flowers.
1. Is God obligated or does he have to save anyone?
2. Is evil a "living" thing. In other words does it it exist in some form. When you speak of evil you seem to imply it is a living thing or something that can exist on it's own.
I have more questions but will begin with these two.
7:27: Isaiah 46.10 is a verse that Calvinists often add to, in order to make it teach Calvinism. "Declaring the end from the beginning" morphs into causing everything that happens, from beginning to end. But what if God has a timetable for certain things He will bring to pass, such as Israel entering the Promised Land, the Cross, the Return of the Lord, and Millennial Kingdom, ect? Do those planned events logically require that God *also* determine everything that happens in between, including every evil thought and imagination of the heart? If Calvinists believe that, then they need to produce verses which teach it explicitly, and not torture verses into making it mean that.
Exactly. And there too many verses where God teaches there are open possibilities, not yet decided until after creation.
@@brianwagner3651 I like the example of Jesus in the Garden. In the Garden where Peter swings his sword at the guys head... (he missed and got his ear), brings out another important point to me. Jesus told Peter in the Garden there were many legions of angels at his immediate disposal to avoid being arrested.
Matt; 26:53-54
“53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and HE WILL AT ONCE send me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?"
What I find interesting is that Jesus’ is confirming the possibility an alternative reality to what He has decided to accept. This is in direct opposition to Determinist's claims out of the mouth of Jesus himself. It's not a narrative, not a parable, not hyperbole, and it's not poetry. Jesus is saying he has a choice at that moment on that day, and he's already made it. We see Christ throughout his ministry methodically and intentionally fulfilling scripture and prophecy, he chose to do this and it was pleasing to the Father. He was obedient to the end. And there can be no obedience by definition unless disobedience is an option.
Also, If Jesus had not intervened, healed the guys ear and told Peter to put up his sword..((he wasn't surprised he was carrying a weapon..just sayin')). I have no doubt that, being no match for Roman soldiers, all of the disciples would have been slaughtered on the spot.
When Jesus prayed and reminded God that he had not "lost" any that God had given him, I see significant, and not rhetorical. Keeping them together up to that point in his ministry must have been like herding cats!
But at that moment in the Garden it was critical to the future of the world.
Spot on. The problem is they can’t produce even one verse that supports their doctrines without eisegeting the text. So they are forced to play word games.
@@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT For an alternate reality, see Jeremiah 38:17-23. Another is 1st Samuel 23:9-13.
@@richardcoords1610 Yes. There are hundreds of "if/then" scenarios which God lays out in scripture. The story of Keliah in 1Sam is particularly interesting in that none of the future events God said were a definite depended on David's choice. And they never even happened because David used the info and went another way entirely.
Another is the story in 2Kings 13:18 Elisha told the king is Israel, "Take the arrows. And he took them. And he said unto the king of Israel, Smite upon the ground. And he smote thrice, and stayed. 19And the man of God was wroth with him, and said, Thou shouldest have smitten five or six times; then hadst thou smitten Syria till thou hadst consumed it: whereas now thou shalt smite Syria but thrice."
Things like this must be considered as true, and a determinist cannot explain them, they must explain them 'away'.
(It's not just a problem for determinists either)
It's the law of cause and effect.
If one spends every penny and goes bankrupt, whose fault is it for the spending and resulting bankruptcy?
Great question around 1:03:00 mark about calvinism
If a "Christian," denies Christ and or the divinity of Christ, they are by definition, not a Christian.
It is not mean or untruthful to state the truth.
There is a difference between a Christian that stumbles, and a person claiming to be Christian that is NOT. Definitions matter.
Anyone person can claim to be a cat.
So let us make a distinction between misguided Christians like James White, and preachers/teachers representing themselves as Christians that are not.....by definition.
God will bring about his declared results (minute 15).
One of the beauties of the gospel is that, while he can do this by his own might he chooses to work though us and with us in bringing about his work.
This may be as an individual, but also and most definitely through his church.
My favorite thing about your channel is that you fulfill scripture in all that they say about the false prophets, and the behavior of self-righteousness, and from time to time you make modern Calvinists look like the idiots they are. (that one John MacArthur video is my favorite where he is shown to be a synergist and a hypocrite)
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
Luke 6:26
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears
2 Tim. 4:3
The scriptures often speak of promises yet future as though they were present or past realities. It's a rhetorical device used to emphasize the faithfulness of God and the certainty of our destiny. Saying "we have obtained an inheritance" is obviously future, otherwise we would have to imagine that we are currently experiencing the fullness of what has been promised us. So, when he talks about "predestining" and "working all things" it should be a clear reference to working in the present in order to obtain that which has been promised. Nothing to do with determinism.
In my study of the decree, it seems to be linked to Jesus Christ alone. For example in the Psalms it says:
Your *decrees* are very trustworthy; holiness befits your house, O Lord, forevermore.
I will tell of *the decree* : The Lord said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”
And here:
In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required. Then I said, “Behold, *I have come; in the scroll of the book it is written* of me: I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.”
And here:
Your eyes saw my unformed substance; *in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them* .
And Jesus said:
“For the Son of Man *goes as it has been* determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!””
Luke 22:22 ESV
And Peter says:
“He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you”
1 Peter 1:20 ESV
And so it seems clear to me that the decree of God pertains only to Jesus Christ (the man, not the pre-existent deity) and has been mistaken to be about all other things.
Well said Greg. I’ve often made a similar point to Calvinists when trying to explain how Jesus Christ is the One who existed “before the foundation of the world” not them. Because they interpret Ephesians 1:4 as themselves being individually chosen for salvation rather than those who are “in Him” taking part in Him being the Chosen One before the foundation of the world. They are actually reading Jesus Christ out of the scriptures and replacing Him with themselves.
@@obrien709 - in compiling a document with only the words of God that is serving as a way that I will live and should live and under the section about the Word of God, here is what I’ve compiled:
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom.
Put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
Learn by us not to go beyond what is written, rightly handling the word of truth, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Do not teach any different doctrine.
Avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law or about words, for they are unprofitable and worthless, leading some to wander away into vain discussion, which promotes speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.
Insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works.
Be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
If only we all practiced that, Calvinism, Molinism, or any other “ism” would not exist! Many of these things prevent us from doing good works and living by faith since we are entrapped into all sorts of arguing and false confidence in speculation and human wisdom.
@@gregmahler9506 Amen brother! Thank you for that!
@@obrien709 - to address what you said more directly, I agree that by going beyond what is written, many theologians have swerved into all kinds of error (me too in the past, but I’m repenting!) and it’s gotten to a point where most people’s faith now rests in human eloquence and wisdom instead of the bare-bones power of the Cross. It’s been emptied of it’s power by men who should have know better if they just read 1 Corinthians 1 up and through chapter 4! I really studied that section super diligently because, to me, it’s the closest thing to something like Calvinism in that it presents two groups, saved vs unsaved, and explains what separates the two groups. It ends up being a combination of things about them (false beliefs and elitist mindset) coupled with God’s disdain for such types of people and attitudes. (Cough cough Calvinism)
“Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours.”
1 Corinthians 3:18-21 ESV
45:29 John MacArthur's progression to more of a deterministic point of view is in keeping with the natural progression of Calvinism towards the illusive 'hyper' Calvinist position. It is the logical end of the doctrine. Any attempt to stop short of swallowing the larger 'bitter pill' is just a denial of the doctrine.
I've got a verse that states God determined everything at a given time. Let there be light.
Which verse?
@@shredhed572
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Leighton I'd love to speak with you more about my question because I don't think you were understanding what I was saying. Please respond to this comment and I'll give you my information and we can hopefully talk more and I can explain what I was asking you so hopefully you can see where I'm coming from. Thanks for reading my question live though, nonetheless!
DW: Sammy - I have a question for you about how you come to the conclusion that the two Atheists who conclude they must have not be chosen - should repent.
Your assertion infers they have choice in the matter of whether they will repent or not.
In Calvinism - no such choice is granted to them for the following reasons:
1) The doctrine of decrees stipulates a THEOS at the foundation of the world must make a decision about whether they will repent or not.
2) Prior to the decree - there are two options.
Option-A: They will infallibly repent and believe
Option-B: They will infallibly NOT repent and NOT believe
3) Both Options cannot be decreed to come to pass - because each Option would negate the other Option. The result would be a self-canceling decree. In such case our THEOS would be a house divided against himself.
4) Both Options cannot be left *OPEN* for the Atheists to determine - because that would entail a form of OPEN THEISM - and a state of affairs in which one Option was not divinely determined over the other. And that would falsify the doctrine of decrees.
5) In order for the doctrine of decrees to be TRUE - our THEOS must determine which Option will come to pass. He must select one Option as what will come to pass - and in the process reject the ALTERNATIVE Option.
6) The Option which he selects will be granted existence - and the decree will make its existence infallible.
7) The other Option is CONTRARY to the decree - and not granted existence. And its NON-Existence is infallible.
8) Therefore - the decree only grants *ONE SINGLE PREDESTINED RENDERED-CERTAIN OPTION* to those two Atheists. And they are granted NO CHOICE in the matter of what that Option will be - and they are granted no ability to refrain
CONCLUSION:
They do not have a choice between [Repent and believe] vs [NOT Repent and NOT believe] because one of those options was excluded by the decree.
For example:
If it is decreed that they will [Repent and believe] then that is the only option granted to them.
If it is decree that they will NOT [Repent and believe] then that is the only option granted to them.
In either case - only *ONE SINGLE PREDESTINED RENDERED-CERTAIN OPTION* is granted to them. And the choice about what that option would be is not theirs to make.
Additionally- they cannot resist whatever they were infallibly decreed to be and do - because an infallible decree cannot be countervailed - and the decree is irresistible.
D W, you understand calvinism😂😅😂
Thorough surgical exposition of calvinism/reformed theologies determined conclusions.
Thank you for your posts.
@D W well, I wasn't arguing Calvinism. I was literally saying if Calvinism is not true, and these guys are saying they aren't following God because God hasn't chosen them to follow Him. If Calvinism is false then those guys didn't turn to God based off of a lie. They could have but they did not because they did not feel like they were called but in reality we all are. That would lead somebody to Hell because they were given a false doctrine.
@@JeffersonDavis412 DW: Yes - thank you for clarifying. I think Dr. Flowers would agree with that.
@@truthseeker5698 DW: Thank you Truth Seeker. Much appreciate! And thank you for your posts!
Moments that betray God’s knowledge of counterfactuals render the notion of exhaustive divine determinism incoherent.
Leighton please explain the potter reference in romans 9 to me because im struggling with it very much so. and its dwindling my faith in who God is?
Amen.
Joshua, don't worry yourself about that chapter.
It isn't at all about individual (predetermined) election to salvation.
"Election" is never about salvation in the bible.
Take care
DW: Joshua - it is critical to understand that the way the human brain interprets any data is by connecting that data to what it internally has to associate it with.
Years ago - people believed the sun orbits around the earth. They accepted that as unquestionable truth. They also accepted scripture as unquestionable truth.
So quite naturally - their minds would interpret the data of scripture to affirm a geocentric solar system.
So the human mind interprets scripture - according to what it already holds as unquestionable truth.
The Calvinist mind is taught to hold EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD) as unquestionable truth. So when he reads Romans 9 - his brain is conditioned to interpret it through the lens of EDD. His mind cannot read it any other way.
The question you need ask yourself is - has your mind been influenced by Calvinist conditioning? If so - then what you are struggling with - is a mind that has been conditioned to read Romans 9 through Calvinism's lens of EDD.
If so - your mind needs to be set free from that conditioning.
Dr. Flowers has a video on Romans 9. The title is: Roman 9 Commentary by Leighton Flowers
Rom 9, 21
No one is made in the womb to irresistibly become a vessel of wrath or vessel of mercy. The phrase “same lump” could be humanity or the Jewish nation, but the point Paul is making is that it is the Potter’s intentions, control, and sovereign choices along the way as He forms any vessel.
God’s intention for each person when they are in the womb is for them to be formed “fearfully and wonderfully” (Ps 139:14). That appears to confirm His desire for all to be saved and to serve Him as a vessel of honor (2Tim 2:4). I believe God makes a good plan for everyone when they are being formed in the womb that can lead them “to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever.” But He puts into each plan some open possibilities and conditionals.
If those vessels, of themselves become marred in His hands, against His original intention, He makes them over into what seems best to Him, perhaps even into a vessel of wrath, to provide opportunities of salvation to those still open to His drawing. He did not plan, nor sovereignly decided, to mar any vessel away from His original plan for their salvation (2Pet 3:9). They make the choice freely to accept or resist the grace of His forming, but sooner or later their destiny becomes set.
Jeremiah 18:3 is very instructive and probably the passage Paul is alluding to here in Romans 9. The Potter’s intention was first something else. Then the vessel was marred by itself (middle voice) in the Potter’s hands. So He prepared/framed it to become another vessel. The word “fitted” in verse 22 in the phrase “fitted for destruction”, probably middle voice/reflexive, confirms that the change comes after the original design was started. The verb is used for things already made, being then altered.
Declaring the end from the beginning...; it says nothing about declaring every minute detail in between.
Yeah and the other thing is how is God declaring it? By revealing it through his prophets and then speaking it out to the people. Not by some divine decree in eternity past. Rather in the real time through real people. Through prophecy.
A+
How many syllables are in “soteriology”?
1:06:00 Most Calvinists came to Christ before being convinced of TULIP. Affirming TULIP does not categorically exclude someone from believing on Christ for their salvation regardless of how confused they may become about how it happened. Calvinists do not evangelize using the details of the doctrine.. that comes later.
That said, it must not be ignored that Calvinism attacks the nature and character of God. Ultimately, the doctrine plants the same seed of doubt as Satan's lie to Eve.... you cannot trust God.
Be truthful upfront about the Gospel to others . Tell them God only chooses whom He will show mercy and some will have no chance and that they might not be chosen unless they have a special invitation
@@timsmith530 Calvinists cannot do that during evangelism. They should, because if they are correct it wouldn't matter how they tell the story to the 'lucky elect' anyway. But is does matter and everybody knows it. That's why Paul spent hours trying to persuade King Agrippa. In truth Calvinists are just walking around talking about God hoping to get lucky and run into someone already 'elected' to be saved. This is why most of there efforts, at least in the US are directed at those who already are believers. And Calvinists simply seek to "explain" and convince them how it happened.
The so-called "Doctrines of Grace" fly in the face of that which is in the conscience and heart of man, already placed there by God so no man has an excuse for rejecting God. But Calvinism actually provides the excuse for the unsaved to continue in sin... Calvinism tells them that God evidently does not love them anyway and nothing can be done about it.
An honest Calvinist witnessing scenario should go like this;... A Calvinist witnesses to a man in the hallway who now believes in Jesus as his savior. He excitedly says, 'this is wonderful, lets go in and tell my family!' ... to which the honest Calvinist would reply ........
"OK, we should go find out if God loves your wife and kids too."
What undermines Calvinism is the events in Genesis of WHAT God created in humans.
Among all the human characteristics the 2 most compelling are human WILL and human DESIRE.
GOD did not place any limits on human desire. He did not create humans to desire only what God desires, or to act on only what God wills? Desires were created without kimits.
1 John 2: 15-17, that you quote, is but one passage that proves that the human free will can pursue any desire.....but are not compelled to pursue a particular desire.
If we examine the scripture evidence (Cain, prodigal son) all of TULIP falls apart.
We decide our behavior because we were created to choose the desire we will satisfy.
Christians have had 2,000 years to OVERTHINK the beautiful revelations of God. Thank you for undoing the commentary cult heresies.
What would you say about a person who claims that though they don't believe in Jesus, if they found out that Christianity was in fact true they would repent and follow Christ? Dennis Prager for example claims as much.
Can the calvinist doctrine be called the Gospel.
Oh but if all of us practiced what Paul stressed here:
“I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us *not to go beyond what is written* [and] that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.”
1 Corinthians 4:6 ESV [insertion mine]
If none of us went beyond what was written then we would have much more agreement and harmony! If we stopped going “I follow Calvin!” Or “I follow Arminius”. Would not we be better off? Have we just repeated the error of the Corinthians that the great Apostle Paul warned us about?
I’m sure Paul would have thought some of these things we have created like Molinism and Calvinism are going beyond and by the direction of the Apostle himself, should be avoided.
I'm pretty sure he is asking how do you accept the teachers of the Calvinist doctrine that is leading people to hell? Not the people going to hell but the people who told the lies that is the reason they have rejected God… how can you accept those teachers as brothers? I think that is what he was asking.
Isiah 46 10
Yes like if I convinced them that God decreed for their 2 year old daughter to die of a disease…if they believed me that would lead them astray.
I will confess that I have had a hard time admitting in the past that hard line Calvinists are Christians. But then again, even most Calvinists reject at least some of those types of Calvinists. For example, I think we can all agree that most (if not all) Hyper-Calvinists probably aren't saved.
One of the things I found helpful, however (in trying to be more gracious), is distinguishing between someone's ability to be a Christian and have poor theology, holding to erroneous views of Soteriology, etc. And those who are, or are not, "apt to teach". I realized that a lot of my struggle with accepting certain types of Calvinists doesn't come from the average Calvinist in the pews, it comes from certain teachers. These men who say that God exhaustively determines and secretly wills for the rape of children, and the damnation of souls, etc., show that they are not "apt to teach" and are therefore disqualified from being Bishops and Elders in the Body of Christ. That is not to say that they are not Christians, just that they ought not to be teachers and leaders.
The Body needs to start taking steps to remove these men from such positions, and to not allow them to teach in our Churches, Seminaries, Schools, etc. Because as long as we allow them to continue teaching, then their false Doctrines will continue to infect the next generation of Christians (and as we have seen happen before, they will ultimately lead some to reject the faith altogether).
Now again, I'm not saying that NO Calvinists are "apt to teach", I'm specifically referring to those Calvinists who hold to views that *even most Calvinists reject,* such as Supralapsarianism, and hardline Exhaustive Divine Determinism that does not have a robust understanding of Divine Permission, along with their teaching on Double Predestination, etc. We need to purge these evils from our Churches, without just kicking all the Calvinists out (because again, I'm not saying they aren't Christians, just that these types of hardline Calvinists are not qualified to be Bishops and Elders, they simply are not "apt to teach").
Salvation does not depend on a particular view of Soteriology. It depends on God, his Spirit, and the extent to which his indwelled people follow his voice within them. Some people unfortunately rest their faith in a theology and not in a living God who can and does teach them right here and now. There is the Bible, 66 books. And then there is a stack of thousands of fallible books written about it by thousands of men and women sitting beside it. Some put their faith in the larger stack and deny their anointing which would guide them without a single book from other stack.
“But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie-just as it has taught you, abide in him.”
1 John 2:27 ESV
@@gregmahler9506 Not sure what that has to do with my comment, but Amen.
EDIT: Well, as long as their view of Soteriology aligns with God, and trusts in the work of His Spirit, and leads them to follow the Spirit. If they are trusting in themselves, or believing in some other savior, then their "particular view of Soteriology" will very much affect their Salvation.
@@beowulf.reborn - I think God is bigger than a particular theology or belief about him. And the Calvinist’s are just not obeying scripture essentially. They have the same gospel, the one that Paul wanted bare-bones. But they have added a bunch of things to it that empty the cross of its power (see 1 Cor 1:17) unfortunately. If they would just listen to the error of the Corinthians in chapters 1-4, they could have avoided all of this. Instead they (and many other “theologians”) have not learned from the illustration that Paul used about him and Apollos. Here is a rubric I put together that could go a long way in helping all of us:
Learn by us not to go beyond what is written. Avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless, leading some to wander away into vain discussion. Do not teach any different doctrine, nor devote yourselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works.
Be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
@@gregmahler9506 Is a person believing the Gospel if they believe Jesus only died for some people and the Gospel is only good news for those “some people” but terrible news for the rest who are passed over and will not be saved?
I do agree with most of what you said. I’m not in anyway saying a Calvinist can’t be saved, it’s not our place to say who is saved or who isn’t and we all have errors in our beliefs. But I am saying calvinism has nothing to do with the Gospel in fact I don’t see how it’s not a different gospel?
@@obrien709 - well, here is the end result of things:
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Such were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
“For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble; it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall and tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act,” says the Lord of hosts.
It is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And “If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” Therefore let those who suffer according to God’s will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
I don’t see “believing the Gospel correctly” in there, although if you have a theology that removes works from the equation, then I think you are in trouble. Which is where the “faith-alone” people end up, imo.
Remember, nuanced differences on the HOW doesn't automatically negate the WHAT. In contrast to EDD, what if one teaches the other extreme.. full on liberation from God, whereby God's will is hindered from doing anything...are they blasphemous? Beware of the loud camp seeking to categorically condemn Calvinists as "devils" or "satanic" or "heretics." (labels I have seen applied on common sites)
DW: If Determinism is true - then the human brain is not granted the function of knowing whether Determinism is TRUE or FALSE.
As a matter of fact - on EDD the human brain is not granted the function of discerning TRUE from FALSE on the matter of anything.
Choosing between TRUE and FALSE - constitutes a CONTRARY choice - which does not exist for the creature within Determinism.
That Isaiah 6:10 does validat predestination, which we can agree with, but I want to know where this can be used to denounce man's autonomy.
I've decided never to call man's autonomy, which is a gift from God, free will.
Free will suggests that we can freely do anything.
Anyway, you can in no way infer that we don't have autonomy or that God predetermined the dammed.
25:00 Don't you think MacArthur means it in a different way? It seems to me that what Calvinists actually mean when they say this is that somehow all things had to happen just as they have in order to accomplish Gods end purpose. Why this must be the case though, on Calvinism, is never explained, nor would they generally be willing to state it just that way.
Was Derrick Webb once’s saved or Born again? Hebrews 6:1-6 says they can’t come back to Jesus Christ for salvation!
"...sets in motion the way everything is going to work out." let us make sure we remember that "the way everything is going to work out" is not only affected by God, but also by the future free will choices of men among many, many other contingent occurrences. No one is a cog in the machine that made their choice out of logical necessity and God foreknowing that choice doesn't make it so that they do. I've never understood why there's a need to form a view in order to thwart a well known logical fallacy. Determinism and open theism/dynamic omniscience are two sides of the same coin IMO.
I don't think he was asking to call them heretics because they're mean. I think he was saying call them that because they are leading people astray…and into believing that God is the author of all evil.
To call the doctrine of absolute predestination "determinism" is a form of slander. Determinism is taught in secular philosophy even among those that deny God. We believe in God's decree, providence and governance. The WCF says, "1. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;a yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,b nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.c
a. Rom 9:15, 18; 11:33; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17. • b. James 1:13, 17; 1 John 1:5. • c. Prov 16:33; Mat 17:12; John 19:11; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28."
Likewise the WSC says, "Q. 11. What are God’s works of providence?
A. God’s works of providence are, his most holy [a], wise [b], and powerful [c] preserving [d] and governing [e] all his creatures, and all their actions [f].
[a]. Ps. 145:17
[b]. Ps. 104:24
[c]. Heb. 1:3
[d]. Neh. 9:6
[e]. Eph. 1:19-22
[f]. Ps. 36:6; Prov. 16:33; Matt. 10:30"
Determinism is properly defined as, "the belief that all actions and events result from other actions, events, or situations, so people cannot in fact choose what to do."
That you choose evil is not denied by us. That you can choose good while under the dominion of sin is the question. That man has liberty to will is not the question. That he has absolute freedom to overrule the decree of God is. You try too hard to pry into God's secrets. Beware lest you be destroyed like the men of Bethshemesh. [1 Sam. 6:19]
"8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,a that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.b So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;c and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.d
a. Deut 29:29; Rom 9:20. • b. 2 Pet 1:10. • c. Rom 11:33; Eph 1:6. • d. Luke 10:20; Rom 8:33; 11:5-6, 20; 2 Pet 1:10." WCF, 3.8
Classic answer of Christians when someone leaves. They were never really in the faith at all.
Classic answer of calvinists for sure addressing this dynamic.
Imagine Parenting from a Calvinistic determinism perspective…
“Johnny, it’s ok you kicked your lil’ sister & spit on her while she was on the ground, because GOD is Sovereign & HE determined you would do that”
GOOPGOOBERLEEGOO
They will say “well God also determined me to not like Johnny kicking his sister and to discipline him.” So what I find more effective is pointing out the concept that if Johnny kicks his sister and I beat him and throw him out in the street and disown him, then God determined me to do that and there’s nothing I could’ve done otherwise.
@@marincusman9303 great, now i have to spend all day trying to get me 👀 UNCROSSED …..
i’ll simply stick with, we are born with a readiness to sin factor & a free will…hence , we can choose to do good or not, it’s our choice ….yep, that squares me with the reality i have witnessed over my 61yrs here on Earth….
When determinism is taken to it's logical conclusion, we find that nobody does anything for reasons which originated from within themselves, but rather all of those reasons originated from within God and He becomes the only being capable of originating any thought, word or deed. All humans are thus relegated to nothing more than cogs in a machine incapable of doing anything that God doesn't want them to do. This strips mankind of one aspect of the Imago Dei: namely that we too are originators capable of altering reality. We cannot create ex nihilo, but we can create things which never existed before by altering things that already exist.
@@bigtxsdude DW: In Calvinism - the state of human nature at any instance in time - is 100% predestined - and cannot be other than what it was decreed to infallibly be.
Additionally - in Calvinism - the human will is NOT FREE to be anything other than what it was decreed to infallibly be.
In Calvinism - the creature is never granted FREEDOM to countervail an infallible decree.
So if it was decreed that one child would kick the other child - then that event was FIXED by infallible decree - and the creature is NOT FREE to do otherwise.
Government and corporate exploitation of the narcissistic traits of people in Calvinistic factions and fundamental Christianity can be implicated as a primary instrument in the poisoned political discourse in the US, every illegal US invasion, systematic oppression of minority groups, economic instability and overt public theft, and the ongoing elimination of human liberty and devaluation of life worldwide.
I wonder if Sproul ever studied quantum physics and non-locality. Modern physics, as well as the Scriptures, refutes that the cosmos is micromanaged. Too bad that Calvin understood neither the Scriptures nor the universe.
I appreciate this, but isn't Brian an open theist? Wouldn't that mean that he doesn't believe that God can know what will happen, without predestinating the future to happen a certain way? I believe it is very plausible that God can know all things, yet only predestinate the certain things He wants to happen and promised will happen. That's not everything, according to the Bible, but definitely the cross, salvation to all who believe, and the last things.
I think it's the way you put it.
Calvinists though, see one instance of something and extrapolate that out to a universal.
Except with words like "all, every, world". In those cases they aren't universals. 😂
@@shredhed572 Anything but! You've got to rein in all those biblical universals, and make them obey Augustine and Calvin. Or else God is no longer sovereign!
@@shredhed572 All? You must be a "universalist"!
@@lindajohnson4204
Absolutely!
All who receive Him become sons on God
The church needs to learn hermeneutics on a basic level and at least understand the assumptions that are brought to the table and how they differ between people. A culture that struggles with basic English literacy and comprehension is going to fall for what other people tell them and bring that baggage to their readings... if they are reading closely. Many don't dive deep at all. God help us all.
Failed Attempt. Any Exegetical student will quickly find all the loopholes
Lol, many say when I go to heaven I want to ask Paul or John or Moses a question, we can’t; we won’t be able to because we will have a transformed mind we won’t remember❣️
Evelyn , I'm wondering if you have a passage in mind to support that christians in the Kingdom of Heaven will lose all memory of past things ? I do not believe that receiving a redeemed ( glorified ) body means losing all memory of the past. I think that would be tragic to not remember what the Lord delivered me from. To lose all memory of loved ones. To lose all memories of God's working , and deliverance and blessings and teachings and sustainable power ect... will the apostle Paul forget everything in his life ? Will Moses forget how God parted the Red Sea? Will David forget how God delivered Goliath into his hands ? Will the blind man forget how Jesus healed him ? Also , all of the eternal rewards , authority, status , roles, responsibilities , fullness of life , closeness to Christ given at the judgment seat of Christ for in the Kingdom of Heaven will all be determined by the works and faithfulness, of the life of the believer in this life. Why would the Father base all of those things on our life here and now only to wipe all our memory away ? I see no evidence in scripture that those in the Kingdom of Heaven will lose all memory of the past.
Here is absolute Biblical proof that God does NOT cause or determine everything;
In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.”
2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
By the way, I am NOT saying God doesn't determine or predestine anything, just not everything.
So, as a Calvinist, do you really believe that God arbitrarily creates some people for one reason; to burn for eternity in hell? They can't accept Christ dying on the cross for their sins. God somehow gets glory for making them sinners and sending them to hell.
So, from the very start, God tells Adam and Eve, do not eat from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and yet He makes them eat from that very tree, since as per Calvinism, EVERYTHING is God's will.
God gives the Ten Commandments, thou shall have no other gods before me, and then makes people worship false gods.
God says, do not take God's name in vain, and then makes countless millions do that very thing.
God says, do not kill, steal, commit adultery etc and then makes countless millions do the very things He says, don't do.
A serial child molesting rapist/murderer is simply doing what God has ordained for him to do? You think of all the evil that is perpetrated on innocent people by evil, wicked, satanically driven individuals, and you want me to believe that God 's will is being carried out? The Bible says, God is holy, righteous, and full of mercy. AND the Bible says, God is love. God's will is not being carried out, at least not in the way Calvinists say.
My Bible says, God is not willing that any should perish." and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
So, while God is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance and be saved, many, in fact, most are not.
Calvinism has a problem with the Sovereignty of God. They just can't grasp that God, in His Sovereignty, can give man a degree of free will. Hence, Joshua can say, "Choose you this day whom you will serve."
You mention how the Bible says, "No one can come to me unless the Spirit draws him..." It doesn't say, no one can come to me unless the Father MAKES him come. Yes, unless the Holy Spirit is working, we can't come to Christ, but when He draws us we are now able to say Yes or NO to His call. Again, that's why and how Joshua can say, "Choose you this day whom you will serve." The Calvinist God seems to be saying one thing in scripture and then going against His own words by making humans do the very things He says for us not to do.
Jesus is the beginning and the end alpha and omega not human teachers!
I understand your desire to win souls and not call everyone a heretic, however, when you continue to call the teachers of a false theology i.e. Calvinism “spirit-filled brothers in Christ,” I believe you are aiding in the deception because God is not the author of confusion. People like James White, etc. are not simply “misunderstanding” scripture for 30 + years, they are deceived and deceiving and must repent of slandering the good character of God. Just because someone claims they are trusting in Jesus doesn’t necessarily make it so. Matthew 7:22-23 (NASB95): Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
I have witnessed to my brother from scripture that God doesn’t elect or reprobate people from before creation, but he continues to believe that He does because that is what RC Sproul taught and John Piper teaches, etc. and he believes them and their interpretation of scripture. I do not know how any of them can have a true relationship with Jesus when their belief is in TULIP and a person that is taught by men and who has a character contrary to that found in scripture. We find in Scripture and also the historic church fathers calling out those who taught false beliefs.
Only God knows a person’s heart, but I believe calling someone a “spirit-filled brother“ while their teachings are contrary to the written Word of God to be a serious error. In the Old Testament God got very angry at Moses because he didn’t properly represent God to Israel: Numbers 20:12 (NASB95): But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you have not believed Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”
God is patient not wanting anyone to perish, but if we do not accept His truth but willfully remain in error, we put our soul in jeopardy. 2 Peter 3:15-16 (NASB95): and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
When a reformed believer renounces Calvinism, as did Dr. Flowers, they do not become born again because they already believed the gospel. What they differ in is merely what caused them to believe the gospel.
If they are preaching doctrines of demons or a false gospel it is hard to see how you could call them Brothers.
How can you possibly reconcile free will with psalm 139:16. I try to find a free will interpretation of this text but people go as far as to mistranslate it to avoid it’s clear meaning because there is no real way to reconcile it with “free will”
You also try to use the word “determinism” as a “boogie man fallacy” (something I’m pretty sure you made up) but the word predestination in Greek literally means to “predetermine”
"In Him we live and move and have our being" Acts 17:28. There you have your proof text. Everything resolves to the 'anatomy' of the I AM in whom we live and move and have our being.
So just as your intestines 'resolve' to your anatomy, so too do the activities and states of all of us (regardless of whether believer or unbeliever, for Paul was addressing both at Mars Hill) resolve to God's 'anatomy'.
That is, the correct view is panentheistic.
This doctrine is called "Statal Calvinism".
And that, Mr. Flowers, is what you have never thought of, for you are unfortunately philosophically austere and your ideas present a God who is a mere anthropomorphism.
Leighton and Brian still miss the boat by equivocating on the word "Christ" to make it appear as if cults like Calvinism must be Christian because they use biblical terminology! This is a real blindness for some Christians who can't distinguish Christian teaching from Christian cult teaching since the latter is adept at borrowing terminology from the Christian faith. Everything they said about Calvinists who trust in a christ for their salvation could be said about Mormons, or Catholics, or Jehovah's Witnesses, or Christian Scientists, etc. You can't just point to a word like "Jesus" without tying that word to the biblical revelation of that person. Calvinism has an extremely different 'Jesus' than the Jesus Christians worship. Our Christ is holy, and therefore cannot sin, he cannot decree sin, author sin, predestine sin, ordain sin, will sin, permit sin. He HATES sin. He FORBIDS sin. Our Christ died for the sin of the whole world, not just for some imaginary birthed elect.
I think LF and BW are both afraid to take the leap to stand up for the gospel against false gospels. Sad, but they've got a lot of company within the SBC who thinks the gospel can be contradictory between the Christ who died for all and the christ who only died for some.
Unfortunately and ironically there is a lot of cognitive dissonance with what these guys are saying. The one man talks about how Catholics who don’t follow or believe Catholicisms false gospel are brothers in Christ yet he doesn’t apply that to Calvinists who actually follow the false gospel of Calvinism. What Leighton and this other man fail to understand is that Calvinism is a false gospel. So we can say at least say that those who teach it are accursed as Paul teaches in Galatians and are not brothers in Christ. So yes there are Catholics who do not follow Catholic teachings and if they are baptized after they grow up and commit their first sin they will be saved, but the priests and bishops who teach it are not brothers in Christ. Therefore John Piper and John MacAurthur are not brothers in Christ. Anyone who is in the reformed church but does not believe Calvinist’s teachings of “doctrines of grace” are able to be saved and be brothers in Christ but those who do believe the false gospel of Calvinism are not brothers in Christ.
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.
Isaiah 46:10
You still haven't answered the question or sufficiently explained it. You only dealt with the first half of the verse and gave your own opinions concerning it. You're looking for a way out of predestination we know, but you haven't proved your case. Catholics have their own opinions regarding scripture, the pope, transubstantiation, but do they have a basis? You like the Catholics have demonstrated your own opinion, but you have proved absolutely nothing. By all means, keep men in darkness by your vomit of a ministry.
Not so. Calvinism is actually working BACKWARD from a future premise-- not all are saved. Therefore:
1. Jesus' sacrifice was not for all because
a. It was not sufficient for all, or
b. It was not EFFECTIVE for all, and if b, then
2. God must have wanted it that way, and
3. Several other things have to follow by reason:
a. He foreordained it (aka predestination, because God doesn't change his mind), and so
b. It has nothing to do with how good or bad one is (unconditional election), and if
c. one is chosen, one cannot refuse to be chosen (graces is "irresistible" at least for the chosen), and
d. one can't lose what one never gained (perseverance of the chosen) (this one is for comfort's sake mostly)
All this is faulty. One should start at the beginning:
1. God creates man in his own image, that is to say, with free will of some kind, though not omnipotence like himself
2. Adam sins, falls and loses a lot of things, but not free will which is in fact, the CAUSE of his sin. If
3. Adam had no free will, he could have had no sin
4. Sin brings death by several things, mostly God's decree (Calvinists take note), but also
5. The Adamic Inheritance (this is what Augustine meant by Original Sin and he was right. Sin is inherited through the blood line. Though Christ is Mary's son, and has Joseph's pedigree, he doesn't have a human sin inheritance. That's why he had to be born of a virgin. Nevertheless, like all of us, he is "born of woman, born under the law," and moreover, "temped in every way as we are, yet without sin.")
6. But Christ is the second or last Adam and undoes this Adamic problem for us. This is Paul's argument in Romans 5, where he compares Adam's sin with Christ's victory, saying in fact the same thing 5 times!! (vv. 15-19). Thus Christ's atonement is as universal as Adam's sin.
7. Thus, everything that exists before Christ is changed after his victory and we need to articulate that in our Gospel, for that IS The Gospel
So, get your Theology, anthropology, ecclesiology and Christology straight and your soteriology will follow.
There remain all the usual problems:
1. How to get saved
2. How to not get saved
3. What to do now
etc.
Other backward thinking Calvinistic thought processes exist, for example:
1. The Church is hopelessly corrupt and therefore not really the Church, another more select institution, a club within a club as it were.
2. Thus, false "salvations" abound and
3. Must be rooted out
comments welcome
DW: The statement about Calvinism working BACKWARD leaves out the fact that EDD is AUTO-MAGICALLY assumed. Resulting in the fallacy of question begging.
Concerning creating man in the divine image.
Part of the divine image - is the ability to choose between CONTRARY options.
For example - to choose whether you will be created as a human male or human female. In Calvinism - CONTRARY choice - is an attribute of the divine image not transferred to man.
On EDD - CONTRARY Options only exist prior to the decree for the purpose of the decision about whatsoever will come to pass at any instance in time.
For the Non-Calvinist EDD is not the case.
Which means - in the NON-Calvinist system - CONTRARY options do exist for the creature to choose between.
So for example - where it says "Behold I set before you life and death - choose life"
In EDD - that statement is FALSE because one option has been excluded by the decree
If [LIFE] has been infallibly decreed - then [DEATH] was infallibly rejected as an option for the creature - and does not exist for the creature to choose.
If [DEATH] has been infallibly decreed - then [LIFE] is infallibly rejected as an option for the creature - and does not exist for the creature to choose.
However - for the NON-Calvinist - CONTRARY options do exist.
Both of those options exist for man to choose between.
In such case - man is granted the function of choice.
Where in Calvinism - man is not granted the function of choice
Additionally - on the topic of humans granted "Freedom" of the will in Calvinism
The decree never grants the creature FREEDOM to be or do other than what is decreed.
So in Calvinism - Adam was NOT FREE to NOT eat the fruit
Because doing so would countervail and falsify the decree
And the creature is never FREE to countervail or falsify an infallible decree.
@@dw6528 They spend their lives explaining away the problems created by their own system which is founded on the false premise that all men are 'BORN' unable to respond positively to God or the Gospel.... After accepting that Biblically unsupported lie, they had to devise a way for a man to be saved who is unable to believe anything.🤔 And the search for 'proof texts' began. But each solution to the problem they invented only generated more question which, in turn, must also be answered, but which also generated more questions.... in the end the best they could do was claim "it's just a mystery too big for our small brains, but we must believe it anyway and hope for the best". Ultimately, Calvinism describes a God who cannot be trusted, It's the same deceptive accusation Satan brought to Eve.
.... when the lie is discarded everything fits very nicely.
@@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT DW: What you are referring to - is the "T" in Calvinism's TULIP.
I would suggest you look a little bit deeper - and discover there is an underlying reason - for the "T" within Calvinism's TULIP.
That underlying reason - is the foundational core of Calvinism - which is EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD) - as enunciated within Calvinism's doctrine of decrees.
The doctrine of decrees stipulates - the state of nature (including man's nature) at every nano-second in time - is 100% meticulously predestined by infallible decrees - and at any nano-second in time - cannot be other than what it was decreed to infallibly be.
The "T" within Calvinism's TULIP therefore functions as a lie of omission.
A lie of omission - is communication designed to mislead - by omitting critical facts which if not omitted would not mislead.
The reason the Calvinist relies on lies of omission - is because he knows - if he speaks the TRUTH about his doctrine - the NON-Calvinistic Bible reader will reject the doctrine - because it *never grants man choice* in the matter of what the state of his nature will be.
The state of man's nature (including every impulse in man's brain) is *FATED* by divine decree before man is created.
Therefore - the "T" in Calvinism's TULIP is a strategy the Calvinist uses to deceive people by obfuscating the underlying doctrine of decrees.
Nice straw man of free grace at the end there Leighton. Love your work on deconstructing Calvinism. I hope your open mindedness leads you to a full revelation of soteriology which must include a seperate of salvation and discipleship which free grace does successfully. No one says oh well he professes faith it doesn’t matter if he doesn’t believe now. Embarrassing, shameful straw man. You’re more charitable to false-gospel Calvinists than the free grace camp which is basically Provisionism but more consistent than you are.
About the message at the end that there are believers in every denomination. You couldn't be more wrong.
So you are telling me Catholic and Orthodox Idolaters that trust in Mary for salvation over Jesus and are full of idolatry are going to be saved by grace because of their false faith in a false Jesus? Mormons? JW? Unitarians that deny the trinity? Universalists that believe everyone will be saved regardless of their faith in Jesus?
You really, really need to stop sitting on that fence and gather some courage. You are not helping anyone to come to the truth with those kind words full of compromise.
This is nonesense! if this is right then God does not know where i am going tomorrow, wheter i am going to south or west, because it is my freewill! the verse of the bible must be changed then , that God know everything except human freewill! nonsense!!
GOD is outside of time……he sees past present & future at the same time…….doesn’t mean HE controls what’s happening in the present or what will happen in the future
@@bigtxsdude You're both illogical which is why you reject each others' doctrine
Many assume an unbiblical definition for "future" that results in an unbiblical understanding of a set foreknowledge of it.
When people hear the phrase - "know the future", they normally work with a non-biblical definition of the word "future" as if it only means an already fixed set of events for everything that has not happened yet.
Some even think everything in the past and future are happening simultaneously with the present, probably from their watching too many scifi movies where the past and future are depicted as places that can be traveled to immediately.
But any future that exists, does not exist now as a place, but only exists in the present as thoughts in God's mind. It must therefore be defined by those thoughts. And the Scripture confirms how God thinks about the future, as some events that will be and some events that might be. So the correct definition of the future is a series of some events already determined that will happen plus a series of some possible events that might happen mixed in between the determined ones.
Man's free will and prayers are being used by God to help Him decide between the still possible events that might happen in the future, some of which He will either cause to happen or some of which He will only permit and the rest will become counter-factual in His mind at that point.
@@brianwagner3651 Amen, but we open theists should never use the terms past, present, and future as if they are things. They are time frames that merely describe when events either did happen are happening, or might happen.
This confuses both the Calvinist, who thinks God knows all events future because He decreed them, and the non-Calvinist who believes God exists outside of time and therefore knows all events in His creation to which they say "time" is part of.
@@brianwagner3651 nice said bro