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541: Rethinking Heaven, the Harrowing of Hell, & Christian Civics with Michael Wear
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- Опубліковано 18 сер 2024
- For our final episode of 2022, we are sharing with everyone two bonus features that are normally exclusively available to Holy Post supporters. First, you’ll hear an episode of “Christian Asks” where Skye explains what the Bible says, and does not say, about what happens to us after we die. Then, we’re sharing one of the most popular episodes of “Getting Schooled by Kaitlyn Schiess” about the doctrine of the harrowing of hell. After that, Kaitlyn interviews Michael Wear, the founder and president of The Center for Christianity and Public Life.
0:00 - Intro
2:01 - Christian Asks... What actually happens after we die?
19:21 - Getting Schooled by Kaitlyn Schiess: The Harrowing of Hell 101
52:23 - With God Daily
Interview with Michael Wear
Michael Wear - www.michaelwea...
The Center for Christianity & Public Life - www.ccpublicli...
53:19 - Michael Wear intro
53:55 - Faith journey
1:01:46 - Politics journey
1:07:15 - Center for Christianity and Public Life overview
1:12:21 - Spiritual formation and policies
1:25:25 - Pre-2024 formation
1:30:09 - Credits
Resources
“He Descended to the Dead: An Evangelical Theology of Holy Saturday” by Matthew Y. Emerson - amzn.to/3Kjqg4o
“The Crucifixion: Understanding the Death of Jesus Christ” by Fleming Rutledge - amzn.to/3QEiJ2h
“Forsaken: The Trinity and the Cross, and Why It Matters” by Thomas McCall - amzn.to/3cno66W
Holy Post website: www.holypost.com/
Holy Post Patreon: / holypost
The Holy Post is supported by our listeners. We may earn affiliate commissions through links listed here. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.
I was raised SBaptist and k 3 different churches.. Now Im in The Christian Church, with music. I have never had the part that Jesus goes to hell and comes back in 56 years. Have I heard it? Yes.. .
As a child, I always understood death as a transition to the eternal realm, which means that we were liberated beyond the rule of time and space. When Jesus says, " you will be with me in paradise", or descends to hell, he is now doing it in the eternal present where what he said happens. Same with us, we experience the realization of His promises once we step of of time and space. This was what my child mind understood and even today, it gives me confort to know that the promise is that we will be WITH Him, as His presence is with us today, but we will be able to see him.
I think my thought process is similar to yours when you say "beyond the rule of time and space" or maybe similar to what Skye says about "your next conscious moment" - the result is the same. Even though I am in the south and have always attended a Southern Baptist church, I've never really subscribed to the idea that anybody could watch me from Heaven. I had to fully ponder and acknowledge that stance when my mom died when I was 20 - I never visit her or talk to her or imagine what she thinks of me now (26 years later) - it is a very different experience with death than I imagine others have who believe there is someone watching over them - of course I contend my way is the easiest/best. 😁 Anyway - when you carry that belief, you have to decide what your loved one's experience is like in an afterlife where they are without the people they left behind. My prevailing idea is they don't experience that...because of the absence of time/space or because of the unconscious holding pattern I imagine my conscious moment of being in the presence of Jesus and my mom's conscious moment of being present with Jesus are the same ... we all "wake up" together. Who knows if I'm right, but it helps me order my thoughts and feelings on the human experience of death ... and I'm sure it will all work out in the end, even if I don't have it exactly right. ❤️
I keep hoping Larry the Cucumber will make a guest appearance on this show!
I have attended several funerals. At the funeral of my grandmother, the love of God was a physical presence that saturated the room. It was tangible. My mother passed away almost two years ago. My atheist brother in law was holding her hand, the moment she died, and was astonished as he felt her spirit trailed up his arm , as a last loving touch. The presence of profound peace lingered in her bedroom for months. I felt her watching over me, when I cried she left two shiny new pennies in my path over and over. She had a thing about new pennies which I always found amusing. They appeared when I was in my bedroom, on a walk, coming out of a Target store, that I had to flee due to the grief of her passing. It continued for s year, then simply stopped. My sister, who had been her caregiver the last year of her life, was also aware of the profound peace in the room our mother occupied, and died in. Shiny, new pennies also appeared in her path in the oddest places, usually when the grief was overwhelming. As far as paradise, I understood that to be a temporary place our spirits resided until the return of Christ to Earth. Heaven was never intended to be a permanent home. We were made to inhabit a physical world, physical beings possessing a soul and a spirit. At the end, Heaven and Earth coexist together. That is my understanding of the scripture. I do not think the distance between the two realms far apart.
I believe you because we have also experienced peace at loved ones death. For sure at one death we found an amazing sea shell on the beach after we buried a loved one. It had a cross and 2 doves.. I think. .So the peace is there. Also Christ defeated death the last enemy once and for all. Paul speaks often about we would rather not have these earthly bodies. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Also Jesus does tell the disciples in John 14.. If it isn't mansions it is many rooms..I go to prepare a place for you. Also the Place He goes to prepare. Also the Bible tells us He accends to heaven the Bible tells us and also that He sits at the righthand side of the Father. There us more. I believe we are clueless in what us to come, but it is MUCH better than we can ever dream or think. Jesus does return with the saints and Heaven and Earth together all new. I have learned that. There is a Thousand years in Revelation.
I love the Holy Post and respect both if you.But saying," Paradise means in the presence of Jesus... has issues because as Christians we have Christ in us. His presence is In us now. The Holy Spirit
Interesting podcast as always. I heard NT Wright talking about the idea of us being disembodied spirts. He said he saw a cartoon once of a guy sitting on a cloud with his halo and white robe playing his harp. The caption was 'maybe I should have brought a magazine'. Since there aren't a lot of information about the 'intermediate state', I think Skyes view that we should say we don't really know the details, but we'll be in God's care.
Paul says to be absent from the body is present with the Lord.
Merry Christmas to the team thanks for this. A couple thoughts:
1. I think it's informative to have those first two segments together. In the first, Skye draws a distinction between things that are 'traditional' and 'biblical', but in the second we get the sense that certain assumptions were just baked into the writing and interpretation of scripture itself because of the moment in time that Jesus lived. Did God choose that moment in history SO THAT neo-Platonist assumptions would inform the church's theological work? Is our modern perspective with its unique assumptions better at capturing what we are meant to understand about dodies and souls etc.? I don't think there's a definitive answer to questions like that, but what it can say is we should admit that there isn't a hard and fast line between 'biblical' and 'traditional'.
2. Kaitlyn's quick comment about universalism's implications for the importance of our choices kinda bugs me. People celebrate death bed conversions and are discouraged from griping about what that means for the importance our decisions. I just don't think that's the actual issue people have with Universalism.
Is there a relationship between the harrowing of Hell to the dead saints who roamed Jerusalem after the crucifixion?
Great question.
Yes. There is a non canonical early Christian written work called the Gospel of Nicodemus about the harrowing of hell and part of its narrative is that when Jesus broke the power of death and rose from the grave, he also rose many previously deceased faithful in Israel who then prophesied about his victory over death.
Good question. 😊
There is one specific NT reference that I wish you had addressed: the story of Lazarus' resurrection. In John 11, Jesus refers to Lazarus state of death as "sleep". He then states that He is "going there to wake him up." (John 11:11, NIV) This seems to me to be the primary NT source for a description of the state of death, since it is directly from the mouth of Jesus and about a literal event. (Literal versus the parable event in which Jesus speaks about the "bosom of Abraham")
We do not know, Amen. It has always struck me as the height of arrogance to proclaim that we do know. Thank you.
We do need to know if we know Jesus as our savior or not. Not arrogance. But life.
My online pastor.. Kyle Idleman preached recently on Romans and Romans 5:12- 13 and 14. He even states That after Adam, they sinned but because there wasn't a law until Moses, Romans 5: 12-14 says that between Adam and Moses.. Not Adam, he broke God's explicit command...13 states it was not counted as sin. I asked the online pastor about it and he stated a good question email us about it.. But Kaitlyn read earlier..1 Peter 3:19- 20 which is something about Jesus went and preached to those that weren't the 8 on the ark. IDK? Interesting yes.. Look it up?? Idk Just interesting.
This is so needed for me. Bc what if I love dirt roads lined with pretty trees & teeny lil flowers over golden streets? (Hypothetical question).
We dont need to "rethink" heaven if it's already described in the Bible. If we read what is actually in the Bible both sides would learn something
"Folks need to forgive their former selves." Michael Wear is delightful. I am so glad I watched this.
They first need to recognize that their former selves are in deep need of forgiveness.
What happened to French Friday? Did y’all post an episode and then pull it?
It’s not an every Friday thing. Once a month, I think?
I agree the truth about how Jesus died for all and in all time. The OT saints were of the promise. Still there is something that says He died for all for all time.
In The Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe, CS Lewis, alluded to the deeper "magic," of Aslan's death to pay the debt of Edmunds betrayal. The witch believed she had won, but the "deeper magic," worked to undo her grip on Narnia. His death undid the power of sin for all who would believe on Him. His blood was the means of erasure of our sins; His resurrection demonstrated God's power to raise all of those who follow His Son. Jesus is the first fruit of the resurrection. It proved finally the efficacy of His death and shed blood to deliver us from an eternity separated from our Creator. You are correct Skye, in stating that "Heaven," is not our final destination, rather it is unbroken fellowship with Jesus, and to participate with Him in rule of the New Heaven and the new Earth. I have always understood this, because that is what the scriptures say. Paradise is a waiting place until that Day.
I love how C.S. Lewis wrote of the “deep, deep magic before the beginning of time.” C.S. Lewis managed to sum up some great theology in those words.
If you notice… Jesus told the guy on the cross, “Today you will be with me in paradise”. Then, after the resurrection Jesus tells the woman, “Don’t touch me because I haven’t accented to the Father”. Also Jesus said the sign given would be three days and three nights. Friday to Sunday morning is only two nights and one whole day. If one pays attention to the actual statements and compares it to the narrative record, these statements can’t be taken literally.
I did buy your book and really got insight and great ideas. But u didn't have real clear message about what happens when we die. The rest was great
So, did Jesus give all the Egyptians, Greeks, Assyrians, Babylonians, Hittites, Canaanites, Japanese, Chinese, Germans, Gauls, Romans, Slavs, Nubians etc, who were in Hades during his descent the chance to accept him as their savior?
Jesus uses the parable in Luke 16.. use to be preached as the hell fire and brimstone, but Elijah is also pictured maybe in sleep..
Jesus saying on the cross," Today you will be in paradise with me." Isn't vague he states it. So there is truth to a Paradise..
I respectfully disagree with Skye and Kaitlyn. The Bible is very clear in Genesis that man became a living soul. In other words a soul was not put into Adam's body. It is pagan Greek thought that says the body and soul are separate. Also, the Bible is very clear in stating that when people die, their body/soul returns to the ground and either wakes up in the future at the first resurrection, which occurs at Christ's second coming, or second resurrection that's after the millennial reign and Gog and Magog Battle. Revelation 19-20 are just some of several passages that discusses this. Based on what it says in Jude, the probability of people making the first resurrection is very small when compared to Earth's all-time human population.
"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." - Jude 1:14-15
Those that awaken at the second resurrection will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement or Judgement Seat of Christ, which are the same thing. According to Matthew 25 and several other verses, those people who are set on the Messiah's right side will enter the Kingdom and get a chance to see the Father for the first time. Those on the Messiah's left are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
For my untrained ear, 'Harrowin' of Hell' sounds like 'Heroine of Hell'!!
Yes, the Bush years (and with some help from the emergent movement) that broke the link between my faith and the GOP political party... The rank hypocrisy really began to manifest then... Thankfully, thank God, I found other streams of christianity that were'nt mired in GOPism/Americanism... otherwise I would have had to leave the faith - instead I'm still in it but that's only because I found alternatives... (emergent, Anabaptist thought, progressive / urban / globalist / intellectual Christianity)
Hey Skye, what about the (Luke 17) Mount of Transfiguration where Jesus was seen talking with Moses and Elijah? OK, first of all God, with His own voice, verifies that the whole point is Jesus. Second, were Moses and Elijah real, and therefore stopping by from some Heaven/Paradise or figurative allusions to the OT/NT "long story?"
I was just thinking about the same thing.
Elijah, at least, is described by the Bible in 2 Kings 2 as being taken bodily to Heaven without dying (i.e., "translated"). Therefore, it seems safe to assume that he is actually there bodily in Luke 17. If so, it would then follow that Moses is likely also there in the body. While Deuteronomy 34 states that God buried Moses after he died, it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility that God resurrected him and took him to Heaven at some point after that and before Jesus' transfiguration experience.
Eugene Peterson has a wonderful Holy Saturday chapter in his book, Under the Unpredictable Plant. Been a long time since i read it but I remember being moved and inspired.
Unfortunately, Eugene Peterson was not a Christian; he was a charlatan. He was responsible for the disastrous, make-pretend Bible ‘The Message’, and was a member of the disastrous, make-pretend church Presbyterian USA, which ordains women pastors, supports abortion of unborn children, supports the sodomite movement, and opposes capital punishment.
@@patrickc3419 So what you're saying is that Eugene Peterson stresses you out a bit. :)
@@cahenglish What I am saying is that he was a false teacher. He was a heretic. He preached a false gospel to the masses which only accomplished one thing, which was making people’s journey to Hell all the more comfortable on this side of time. There is a reason that not many people know who John Owen, John Flavel, JC Ryle, Voddie Baucham, Paul Washer, John MacArthur, Alistair Begg, or Conrad Mbewe are/were, but they sure know who Kenneth Copeland, Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson, Joel Osteen, Billy Graham, TD Jakes or Joyce Meyer are/were. Carnal sermons attract the masses.
The Bible proclaims what people need to hear, not what they want to hear; That mankind is dead in sin; a sinner by birth & by choice; saved & sanctified only by the grace of God alone, by faith alone in Christ Jesus alone.
I am so thankful the Holy Post is part of my passive discipleship.
If she doesn’t know where she is going when she dies that is a problem. She should be terrified.
You guys need to get a Charles Rosel or Tillie Bergin on your show. They have been involved in some very good ministry based evangelism with their churches in Arlington, TX and Leesburg, FL.
They need a Voddie Baucham, John MacArthur, Paul Washer, James White, Sinclair Ferguson, Tom Ascol, Alistair Begg, Al Mohler, Steve Lawson, Darrell Harrison, Conrad Mbewe, Emilio Ramos, Virgil Walker, or a Jeff Durbin to confront and correct their false teachings.
@@patrickc3419 whatever, dude. I'll tell you what, list all points below of false teaching by them in your next comment. Curious of your reply.
@@graysonbr Sure thing (This is in specific regard to Vischer and his fellow hosts, as I have never heard of Charles Rosel or Tillie Bergin).
He supports the abortion of unborn children, the sodomite movement, women pastors, the domestic terrorist group BLM, CRT, believes in evolution, opposes the death penalty, has compared Florida’s correct anti child grooming law to Jim Crow, has said that Voddie Baucham is not a real black person, & has mocked John MacArthur, Al Mohler, & Ken Ham. The Bible, which proclaims that we are dead (not sick, dead) in sin, saved by the grace of God alone, by faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, proclaims what we need to hear not what we want to hear. It in incompatible for a genuine, born again follower of Christ to hold those beliefs of which I listed.
@@patrickc3419 I don't listen to Vischer all the time and I don't agree with some of the nuanced political positions, I have not heard him assert teachings contrary to Scriptures. Do you have vlog dates and timestamps? Have you contacted him on this as well?
@@graysonbr ua-cam.com/video/wUQ9irHx0FQ/v-deo.html
As a Catholic watching this, I can assure you that we don’t interpret the harrowing of hell as a universalist doctrine, which Caitlyn suggested several times. That’s not accurate. Christ descended into hell, but the concept of hell in Jesus’ time was both Sheol and Abraham’s Bosom. It’s the latter group whom Jesus proclaimed the Gospel and the victory over death. So, no, I love you, Caitlyn, but we don’t teach universalism in the Church. We teach that Christ saved those souls imprisoned in the realm of the dead who were also awaiting the messiah. Just wanted to clarify! Thanks!
I am not Catholic, but I think I agree with your understanding. That makes so much sense.
We don't know what happens on the other side and who gets to go to "The Good Place". To say otherwise is gross arrogance.
Boy y’all done messed me up. Whole time I thought I was going to Heaven and I’mma be chilling in the waiting room.
Not at all. Heaven is real, just not our final forever home. Scripture teaches that the Heavenly Jerusalem will join with the New Earth, it is also referred to as the Marriage of the Lamb. God joining with His people in a holy union, where His presence is with His people. He will be the light then, as He is the light now in Heaven. No more tears, sorrow, suffering, grief. God Himself will wipe away our tears.
I know you say you've been to a funeral of someone who was a Saint---have you ever been to a funeral of someone who lived like the devil and died? That's not a fun experience. The pastor can't pretend they went to a place of everlasting life and you may not know where that person went---but you know it SURE wasn't heaven!
Skye, help me understand these , I am going to prepare a place for you , john 14:1-3, 1 thess 4:17, i have been taught since childhood that there is heaven and will join Christ there and spend eternity, what i seem to get from your discussion is that it will happen on earth? we will just be transformed into immortality...... HELP
I'm obviously not Skye, but the imagery in Revelation implies that "heaven" in the sense of the place we live with God after death will be here in a restored/renewed/rebuilt earth. My interpretation is that the place he is building will be there.
I LOVE this!👍⛪❤️
That first lady doesn’t sound like she’s saved
Hello, I am unsubscribing from this account. Someone named Jose R. contacted me via my private email including my phone number. I don't know how he obtained the information, but I contacted Google.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1:Corinthians 15:50-55, Job 14:12, Psalm 13:3, Matt. 9:24, Eccl. 12:7 (The spirit. Hebrew word, “ruach” (research), in not one of the 379 instances of its use in OT does it denote an intelligent being capable of existence, as far as man is concerned. See also, John 11:11-14, Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, Martin Luther “Exposition of Solomon’s Book Called Ecclesiastes”, p. 152, E. Petavel, “The problem of immortality”, p. 255.
I think it helpful to consider the Trinity as being comprised of personages, as it seems referring the revealed members of the Godhead as persons implies separation rather than the Divine Unity, so the Ruach Hakodesh doesn’t need to be verified by language studies as an independent “god,” but rather is verified by faith in Jesus’ words as eternal truth directly from God Himself about Himself
Jesus' return was supposed to be in the lifetime of his disciples. Either it already happened, Jesus was wrong, it isnt going to happen. I think heaven becomes more and more important the l9nger we go without christ return. I think Christians are growing more in their belief heaven is the end over a new earth.
Hello, regarding life after death you said you did research and only mentioned two verses. Why no mention of any verses in the Old Testament? Why no mention of what Christ said to Mary regarding the death of Lazarus? Why no mention of the 2nd resurrection in the book revelation? For an expert, you seem to have done no research at all but offered 95% opinion and 5% scripture? Where did the traditions come from? Important to know because many can come from paganism. To others, it's important to listen to experts but God has given each person a Bible for reason. When he promises us the Holy Spirit to open the scripture to all. In the Middle Ages, the church did not allow people to have bibles because they wanted them to rely only upon the interpretation of the catholic church which, when Luther studied realized they were hiding many truths or teaching traditions that contradicted the Bible.
This is not an accurate statement. For most of human history, including up until the Protestant Reformation, people were largely illiterate. So, people didn’t have the basic skills to even read the Bible. This is why Churches used stained glass windows and art to communicate the Gospel stories. And the ubiquity of Bibles today give the impression that they’ve always been available, which wasn’t the case up until the invention of the printing press. Until then, Bibles had to be hand written, which took several years to do and cost a significant amount of money. A single parish might only have one Bible, which is why they guarded it so closely. If someone stole that one Bible, the whole parish would be without the Word until they either located it or acquired the money to purchase one. I strongly encourage you to actually learn some history and not just repeat anti-Catholic tropes.