Pastor's FIRST TIME Reading 3 Nephi
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- Опубліковано 11 лип 2024
- Pastor Jeff and Latter-day Saint, Greg Matsen (CWIC Media) discuss Jeff's reaction to 3 Nephi from the Book of Mormon.
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Hello Saints! My name is Jeff McCullough and I'm a Christian Pastor.
This channel is devoted to fighting criticism with curiosity as I invite dialogue between mainstream Christians and Latter-day Saints. Are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Christians? What do Evangelicals and Latter-day Saints agree and disagree about? Join me as I compare and contrast the lifestyle, culture and beliefs of Mormons and non-LDS Christians.
If you enjoyed this video, you might enjoy this video of Jeff going through a Latter-day Saint temple for the first time: • Pastor and Latter-day ...
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Jeff, thank you for inviting me to go through 3 Nephi with you. This is always so enjoyable! It's so great to discuss the Book of Mormon with you and to talk about our commonalities and differences. Thanks my friend and I look forward to Part 2!
I liked your answer on the white skin. But I would add something that I believe: The Book of Mormon is written by people who are looking for God working and Miracles. I personally have noticed a difference in skin tone for people who join the Church -- of all races. not just blacks. Not just Native Americans. But all kinds of people. There is a kind of lightness. I cannot explain this and do not attribute it to "righteousness" per se, but there might be a factor in diet or perhaps habits or perhaps more wealth keeps you out of the sun? Or maybe it is something that just happens as one ages. I think that has happened to me. I don't know the reason. But whatever it is, the writers of the Book of Mormon may have seen something like this and overemphasized it as a matter of faith. Maybe.
I also don’t think (personally) that skin colour was seen as a spectrum of the whiter the better until the last few hundred years. Slave trade has been a thing for thousands of years and people of same races were slaves to each other (white slaves of white peoples, dark-skinned slaves to dark-skinned people). When we read ancient records in a 21st century lens, it will appear to have more racial connotations. Whether the skin colour was a literal change or not, it seems to have been a way to divide those who lived God’s laws from those who were disobedient. Even the Amlicites marked themselves with red in their foreheads as a sign that they were apart from the mainstream Nephite group, who they dissented from, to show that they were “different”.
Greg, so great that you were able to help guide Jeff on this section of his reading and understanding. Well done!
@@DovahkiinScythe "There are multiple times in the Book of Mormon where the Nephites get “dark skin” and Lamanites get “white skin”. "
I do not get how your point contradicts what I was saying. Its the same issue.
@@mycatwould "I also don’t think (personally) that skin colour was seen as a spectrum of the whiter the better until the last few hundred years. "
I know that is what we think is true. But I am not convinced it is true. I don't think, for example, that in Africa, there are distinctions on skin color simply because white people said so. But it might be quite ancient -- the people of Northern Africa (who could be very light) were economically and socially advanced in almost all ages when compared to the Africans of the south. So that lighter skin may have been automatically associated with this economic and social advantage.
As a Catholic, a enjoy all of Gregg's LDS broadcast regardless of our disagreement on theology. The man studies with the right heart.
@@MrMpettus You're saying Gregg is not LDS?
YES! I agree with you! I feel the same.
Incidentally, Catholicism is my second favorite religion (though I don't like the current pope!). Catholics have a long tradition of deep spiritual thought and reasoning as well as, in many cultures and in many places, producing people who are decent and good down into their bones.
@@goodtoGoNow1956 I definitely have issues with this Pope also.
I also feel that the whole purpose of the Book of Mormon is to teach of Christ. He was expected in Israel, but not known yet. That was part of them coming to know him. In the Book of Mormon, they preach of him by name, they observe the prophesied signs, and still increase in wickedness. I think the difference is the knowledge and teachings they had and turned from.
I also don't feel it was necessarily judgement, but the result of not adhering to the teachings of the prophets
I remember Elder Jeffrey R Holland making a statement about how the Book of Mormon bridges the gap between the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament. I understood what he meant at the time, but after this video (and others Jeff has done while reading the BoM) I understand what he meant even more.
Totally enjoy the pastors insights in all his videos.
Jesus is the bridge.
In the grand carnival of religious absurdities, the Book of Mormon stands out for its anachronistic bravado. Its pages are a tapestry of fantastical claims, devoid of any tether to genetic, linguistic, anthropological, or archaeological realities. It's a masterpiece of fiction, masquerading as divine revelation. And yet, the irony deepens with the Mormon adoration of the King James Bible, commissioned by a monarch whose own romantic inclinations would have scandalized today's pious believers. King James, with his rumored male affections, would have been a pariah in the stern court of Latter-day Saint morality. This historical jest is made richer by the Church's own troubling history with the LGBT community - a community that King James, by today's standards, might very well have been a part of. One must chuckle, if wryly, at the delicious irony: a religion so at odds with LGBT rights worships a text commissioned by a possibly gay king. The absurdity is almost too rich to fathom, a comedy of doctrinal errors that not even the most audacious satirist could conceive.
@@IIIJT Not sure why your comment is filled with so many big fancy words as if that makes you right, but whatever the reason, your arguments are still wrong. Plenty of the things described as anachronisms in the Book of Mormon have been solved. As far as archeology, again, plenty of things that used to be argued against the Book of Mormon have been solved, like how people used to believe that books were never written on metal plates, until it was discovered that they were, or how people to this day for some reason think that Pre-Columbian horses didn't exist, even though they have been found. Just like how people used to think that Lions didn't exist in the Middle East, so they thought the Book of Daniel in the Bible was wrong, until they found out lions DID exist in that region.
I don't know why you spent so much time talking about King James himself. Latter-day Saints do not see him as a prophet, and actually we barely talk about him at all. I don't care at all about whether King James was gay or not since his personal life has no effect on a Bible translation that he commissioned.
As a Church we want to be welcoming to our LGBT brothers and sisters. We know that homosexual behavior is a sin, but not the attraction itself. Nobody who has same-sex attraction and feels like they can't change it is barred from the blessings of the restored Gospel. They can still follow Jesus Christ and fully participate in the Church.
That was a really smart thing to do to have Greg along with for this episode
Christians too often attack each other over differences in beliefs. It's so refreshing to see people discuss with thoughtfulness and respect.
Great conversation here. I would say that being damned is being stopped in one’s progress, much like a dam stops water. In my view this makes commandments such as “be baptized or you will be damned” into an invitation to be baptized so you can progress. It changes the view of God from a stern do-this-or-else persona to do-this-so- you-can-progress.
Yes. Because he loves us so and knows us and who we truly are. He knows the promises we made to Him before we left and loves us for striving to fulfill those promises. We are so loved and cared for. Let’s rise in thought word and deed. Think Celestial . Doubt not fear not . Heavenly Father has so much he wants to reveal to us and bless us with. Pray and ask for these things. Believe you will receive and you will.
Faith before the miracles.
@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr made up? Try restored by the Lord Jesus Christ through the Prophet Joseph Smith
@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr Hrm, someone is a bitter.
@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr I wasn't brushing you off, I was calling you out. Very different. I never said "get out of here," or "you're not welcome here," or "your viewpoint us illegitimate," I was simply saying that you're coming at this from a very sour perspective, and that won't persuade or convince anyone to listen to you.
I was mildly surprised at how horrified evangelicals are of 3 Nephi 8. A Jewish Latterdaysaint put it best when he said that Jesus came to Jews as a lamb, but to the Nephites as a lion. This is partly because the Book of Mormon is designed to prepare us for the second coming. The way he arrived for the Nephites is how we can anticipate him arriving when he returns. If you can't recognize Jesus as a lion then you might need to get to know him better.
This is a great way to put it, and the second coming insights are crucial.
@VirtualBros
Isaiah 61:1-2 says, "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has
anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the
brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison
to those who are bound; to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor, and the day of
vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn".
Jesus left off the vengeance part. See Luke 4:16-21. The time of the atonement and
resurretion is about mercy and love. The only thing on judgment is sin and death.
True. Jesus came as the lamb. It is only at the Second Coming that he comes as a
lion.
@tony-northcountry3272 the Lord made promises to the nephites, a different group of Israelites, which lived in a different land with unique stipulations.
See Ether 2:"8 And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them. 9 And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity. 10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off. 11 And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God-that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done. 12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written."
The new world is a promised land that has its own specific blessings and chastenings. Again, you are not understanding that He came to the Jews as a lamb, as He promised, and to the nephites as a lion, as He also promised.
I agree, the visit to the nephites is more symbolic of the second coming , where it says in the Bible there will be darkness and weeping and nashing of teeth..
I would also say that the New Law hadn’t been revealed to the Nephites and Lamanites at this time. Christ hadn’t yet established it. They were living under the Law of Moses, which is an Old Testament law. It makes sense that the “judgement” that came upon the wicked at this time would be similar to what we find in the Old Testament.
It may be that the judgements suffered by the people in 3 Nephi 8 was due to their greater knowledge and therefore greater accountability.
I was 15 the first time I read the Book of Mormon. When I got to Nephi chapter 8 I had the same reaction as Pastor Jeff. It wasn’t the Jesus I had grown up with in Primary and MIA. I wondered about it for years until my mission when I read it in Spanish. I t was then I realized that he destroyed all those cities out of mercy and love. In the English language Christ seemed angry and judgmental. In Spanish he seemed to be pleading with his people to repent. I wonder what you’d get out of 3nephi if you read it in reformed Egyptian, it’s original text…?
So grateful for the Book of Mormon and how it’s brought me closer to the Savior. Each time I read any of the Standard works I learn something new and find my relationship with the Savior strengthened.
I have felt that way about the Jesus of the old testament. Too often we see him as being a damning and judgmental God, and yet he’s a god who repeatedly begs for us to repent and come back to him (as a hen who gathers her chicks) because he knows what the consequences are otherwise. Maybe that’s why most LDS people don’t have a problem with it because we understand who the god of the old testament was and his mission which was completed in the New Testament.
The " reformed egyptian language " never existed.
Reformed Egyptian? what is reformed Egyptian? is it Demotic?
@@BGCflyer Totally, reformed Egyptian is an evolved form of Demotic Egyptian, much in the same way that modern English is an evolved form of middle English.
@@DoctrineofChrist248 …based on what you said, isn’t the “evolved” version of Demotic, more like Coptic?
Oh my gosh, I got goose bumps when he read the scripture. I've not been to sacrament much since before 2020, I blame it on fragile family situation, and my depression maybe,.... But it really touched me...I think this video could be great for church members who fellowship with missionaries, seem like pastor is a really positive open person and one day something is gonna click trust me❤
This was by far my favorite Book of Mormon video you've done. Great conversation! :)
I always looked at the destruction prior to the resurrected and glorified Christ coming down as a purifying thing. No unclean thing can be in the presence of God so the wicked were removed from his presence so he could appear to the people. In the new testament the resurrected and glorified Christ only appears to those who already believed in him and not to the greater society like in the Book of Mormon.
I agree! I always saw the destruction that happened in chapter 8 not simply a result of Him wanting to “punish” the wicked, but more so that He could bless the righteous with His presence. He did not visit all of Jerusalem after His Resurrection because there were still unrighteousness among them. However, He could visit all of the Nephites after His resurrection because only the righteous remained. It did seem a little convoluted to say that 3 Nephi 8 doesn’t line up with Christ in the Bible. I definitely have never interpreted chapter 8 in as much of a harsh way as Pastor Jeff did here. I think the Old Testament also clears up that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever and that at times the wicked are destroyed to fulfill His righteous purposes.
In Catholicism we understand that yes God will judge us. Like with members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we believe that those who refuse to live the Moral Law will be punished because they reject Jesus' kindness that leads to repentance. Our faith leads us to repentance. In other words, we through our faith obtain grace because of our willingness to repent.
I love this. Very well put. I'm LDS and couldn't agree more. Thank you
First time commenter. I love the constructive and thoughtful approach. One perspective to consider on Chapter 8’s harshness. To me the destruction of the wicked in both chapter 8 and in the case of Noah are displays of a merciful God. Similar to a father or mother who removes a misbehaving sibling from inflicting more pain on themselves and their siblings by placing them in the other room for a moment, Jesus did this very thing with the people in chapter 8/Noah. Moving them out of their mortal spiritual death spiral would allow Jesus to work with them in a different capacity at a different time through the ministry organized in the spirit world. The Savior is going to do all He can to put us in a position to more easily choose to follow Him. To me the destruction of these wicked cities was exactly that as He knew he was days or even hours away from kicking off that great work of preaching to the deceased souls.
Thank you for this insight😊
I love this perspective! Thank you for sharing this. This helps me. Both stories have always been tough for me to correlate with the idea of a loving and merciful God.
I completely agree. Another thing to consider as well(learned this from my awesome seminary teacher) is that in an environment they were currently in, their posterity was also doomed to fall into the spiritual death spiral of their fathers. The savior loves all of us. Including those who are currently arriving to the earth. So by allowing for a fresh start in that time, he is giving those who are coming to their mortal life on earth a much better chance of changing the current iniquity spiral and finding christ.
you are so smart, holy cow! You need to do a podcast or have a you tube channel.
Beautifully done! I appreciate the respectful engagement of this important text. The dialogue was inspired by a desire to understand. It feels great when interfaith dialogue is so sincere and meaningful. ❤
I think it’s time for Pastor Jeff’s to read Moses from the Pearl of Great Price. I can’t wait to see his emotion, intelligence expressed from reading Moses 5 and 6. My fellow Latter Day Saints know what I am talking about. Great conversation gentleman - we need more of this in the world. Let’s just work together and love Christ and drop divisions of disagreement.
Yeah I agree, didnt look at the Pearl of Great Price until now I dont know why I waited so long.
This is what I've learned through my prayerful study of the Book of Mormon specifically about the skin color change. (I happen to be a brown person, FYI.)
1. The curse was NOT the dark skin, the curse was that they were cut off from the presence of the Lord. This was the natural consequence of their actions.
2. Once they were cut off from the Lord, the Lord darkened their skin only to differentiate the Lamanites from the Nephites.
3. The Lord did not want the Nephites to marry the Lamanites so they were differentiated from each other. Why did he not want them to marry? We see this over and over again in the Old Testament. When you marry somebody outside of your faith, your faith is weakened.
4. In Third Nephi, some of the Lamanites had become converted unto the Lord and had become strong, faithful, and righteous people. The curse was taken away from them, which is to say they were no longer cut off from the Lord.
5. Therefore, the Nephites were allowed to marry those Lamanites, because they were of one faith, so there was no need to differentiate those Lamanites anymore. Hence, they became white like unto the Nephites.
6. Keep in mind, the Lamanites that were not converted, remained cut off from the Lord, which is to say, remained cursed.
That is my personal understanding.
Great summary! Thank you!
I was thinking about what you said about chapter 8 and it felt like judgement. And when I was praying about it I felt a prompting in my mind. This was in fact an act of judgment and an act of love at the same time. He cleansed the more wicked from the area before Jesus visit in order for the reign of peace that was to come. I believe if God would have left more wicked hearted people in place and they would not have seen Jesus they would not have believed and would have stirred up much trouble and contention in the area so there would have been no peace for 4 generations.
When there is all the destruction in 3rd Nephi, I have always interpreted that so differently. I was never taught that the destruction had anything to do with judgement. I was taught that it was the earth mourning the death of the Savior. The earth recognizes its creators, and mourns Christ's death.
Interestingly, from a geologic standpoint, a lot of the destruction that is described is consistent with a massive volcanic eruption. The ash in the air could explain the days of darkness where a candle couldn't even light.
Very well could have been a Volcano. I have also been intrigued lately with The New Madrid Earthquake in N. America. It’s interesting because many people wrote their experience down and it sounds very similar to the Book of Mormon events. (Thick darkness, unable to start a fire, river reversing course, lightnings, etc. ). Check it out…. Pretty sure there are some videos about it on you tube.
The destruction referred to at the death of the savior in North America, was definitely a result of an earthquake or earthquakes, not a volcano. When the earth shook so violently gases came out of the Earth. These gases decreased the amount of oxygen in the air from the normal of 20 or 21% to below 15%. When the oxygen level is below 15%. It is impossible to start a fire. There was a similar earthquake called the new Madrid earthquake in Missouri in 1812.
@@SacaPuuntas Absolutely involved the New Madrid Seismic Zone. These powerful earthquakes in 1811-12 caused the Mississippi (river Sidon) to run backwards, at least 1 city sunk and lots of destruction. The events of the Book of Mormon happened in ancient America, NOT Mesoamerica!
I was taught it was because of their wickedness. The prophet Samuel stood on the wall and warned them. They shot arrows at him.
@@brucelloyd7496 The New Madrid Earthquake of 1911-1912 also produced earthquake smog which caused darkness and it was difficult to light fires, and if you did it didn't help you see any better. I think the destruction in 3 Nephi would have produced a thicker earthquake smog than in 1911. The shaking and liquefaction of the ground would warm the water in the soil that would get released as a fine mist that becomes thick fog upon meeting the cold air above ground. The fog would mix with large amounts of dust kicked up from the upheaval and block out the sun.
Another earthquake phenomenon that can bury cities would be sand boils/geysers. In some areas there is ground water with upward pressure kept down by the solid ground. The liquefaction of the ground allows this upward pressure to be released, and the water and sand erupts from the ground and can cover whole villages in 30 or 40 feet of sand. The New Madrid faultline has the largest sand boil/geyser in the world. It is 1.4 miles long and covers approximately 135 acres.
Sand boils/ geysers could form natural dams that create new lakes, such as Reel Foot Lake that was created in the 1911-1912 New Madrid Earthquake, and drowned an entire indian village. The whole eastern United States is effected by the New Madrid earthquakes, I don't know of any other seismic zone that effects such a large area all at once. It's a perfect fit for the events in 3 Nephi.
Hi, Jeff! Great video! One thing Greg didn't say and that I still think is worth clearing up. Probably not mentioned by Greg because it's so fundamental to a Latter-day Saint world view that we don't always think about the need to clarify it. It's that the gospel of Jesus Christ doesn't change. Different places, times, & people, yeah, but faith in Christ, repentance, baptism, & the gift of the Holy Ghost were the plan at the beginning and the plan before Christ was born, and the plan today. The grace given by Jesus was there before his birth and after. And judgment is there before and after. The God of the Mosaic Law is the same as the God of the Gospel. I think that's just a fundamentally different world view to the one you see that causes a lot of your struggles with reading the Book of Mormon. And it's not just an accident you keep running across in the Book of Mormon. It's fundamental to its core message and there very much on purpose. Anyway, I don't know if you'll see this, but if you do, I thought I'd try to clarify.
I think you used the word dispensation in this video in relation to grace? We use the term, but we typically use it to me a restoration of the same gospel in each case.
I had these thoughts too.
Your BofM videos are much better when you have a member with you to bounce questions off of and ask for clarifications.
I would highly recommend watching the Book of Mormon videos for all of the book and for 3 Nephi in particular. The videos portray the stories, people, and events in the Book of Mormon in a very personal, profound way. Plus, they make the story a lot easier to understand and more engaging!
The south park episode was riveting.
PS - I’ve watched a lot of your vids and love the concept of “right relationship with God.” I’ve incorporated that phrase into my LDS thinking. It’s such a beautiful way of saying it. Thank you.
Hopefully you caught that in this last General Conference where our RELATIONSHIP WITH CHRIST was HEAVILY emphasized.
@@jum5238 , yes. That’s part of why I like the phrase. It’s a different way of saying/phrasing something really important to us. The new phrasing gives additional meaning to the concept, like hearing a new arrangement of a familiar hymn. I really like the phrase.
@@jenniferjohnson5064 "Right relationship with God" is the very definition of justification, as mentioned in D&C 20. I'm grateful for the Restored Gospel, wherein we can also be sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Great format.
I wouldn't pretend to tell Jesus when he can and can't bring destruction.
He cursed the tree and it withered and died. He turned over the money changer tables at the Temple.
The result of his "judgement" in 3 Nephi was nearly 400 years of peace and righteousness.
"Judgement" - keep in mind this happened in the physical mortal world. I don't think this is necessarily judgement on all of the individuals...that comes later. Many of those who parished still await judgement. But the society, for their and our sakes was definitely judged and ended in 3 Nephi 8.
I very much appreciate Gregg's use of the word covenant in this conversation, meaning a promise between God and us. This is the type of conversation everyone of faith can have. Thank you Pastor Jeff for showing such an excellent example of how that is possible.
A Jew could easily take the first five books of Moses and walk through the rest of the bible and point out all the "plagerism" or repeated versus, phrases, and verbiage found in the Pentateuch. Prophets quote other prophets, biblical authors of Psalms repeat the same verbiage frequently. There's a reason for that. It's not plagerism.
Very good and very good discussion. I have always enjoyed the discussions between Jeff and Greg. It's always good to hear how you two politely can discuss and even disagree.
Looking forward to part two.
I can’t wait for part two! Jeff, thank you so much for sharing your journey of reading the Book of Mormon with all of us. I’m so glad that you are meeting and talking with Greg. He’s a great guy and knows so much about our faith. He’s a great person to answer a lot of your questions and I’m so excited about the cruise that you are doing! I would love to come!! Keep it up. I am here for it.
Pastor Jeff, I can't tell you how grateful I am for how kindly and respectfully you covered these sections. Many of these sections you covered are deeply sacred and I loved that you respected our beliefs by reading straight from the passages. Thank you, thank you.
I have followed your videos from the beginning and have loved your viewpoints. Please don’t wait another few months before you post part 2!
I was honestly surprised as a Latter-Day Saint when Gregg mentioned we may have had part in the creation. My understanding is that God the Father directed Jehovah (Christ) to create the earth. Like, here are my blueprints; go and build it. It amazes me how members of the Church can understand things so differently.
Also, I never considered the voice in Chapter 8 to be inconsistent with Christ. As the Jehovah of the OT, punishment was often dealt to the wicked and God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Also, as you said, sin always leads to destruction so for me that tracks. I appreciate your perspective though; it helps me to gain greater understanding. 👍
Abraham 3:22-24 summary: God and Jehovah were with the noble spirits (like Abraham) in a pre-Earth meeting, and when Jehovah was directed to form the earth, Jehovah uses "we" a lot. "We will go down," and 'We will make an earth." How many spirits does "we" include? That is up for debate, but we do believe that Jesus directed a group project. I don't think that detracts from a belief in the power of Jesus... he could have created the earth alone, but he shared the experience with others.
Enjoyed the video can't wait for part two!
Great video Greg & Jeff. Thank you for both being so respectful.
Excited for the next part! 3 Nephi 27 is a favorite of mine too, for how clear it is! Thanks Pastor Jeff!
Such a big fan of your channel! Excellent episode & discussion here, I love seeing healthy engagement like this instead of the usual argumentative debates.
Great discussion! I'm looking forward to part 2.
I'm excited to see Part 2. This was interesting and thought provoking. Also helpful in thinking about the nature of God.
Me too
I would love to see an interview/ invitation to Jared Halverson. That would be awesome! Keep on doing what you are doing.
I've been for this ride for a while now. I may not have seen all your takes on the Book of Mormon, Jeff, but I've thoroughly enjoyed watching and hearing about your thoughts! 3 Nephi is a very special book (for quite obvious reasons, in my opinion), and I'm really, really glad I was able to see you go back and forth about this book. There were many things that I hadn't thought about before, these made me want to go and kinda start learning again from the Scriptures. There's so much in there and really important stuff. Amazing work and thanks again for having this conversation!
Thanks Jeff for this discussion of 3 Nephi in Book of Mormon. The first time I read these passages I was brought to tears.
We had a seminary record when I was in high school, and it was called “Like Unto Us”. My mom and I used to listen to it. It is on UA-cam.
My seminary class listened to that record my Junior year, when we studied BOM
@@cumomsandcureloms I bet we did the same….did you go to UA-cam and hear it again?
Very interesting discussion! I’ve never read anything from the Book of Mormon. I admire you for so respectfully engaging mormons with their text and challenging it.
Read it for yourself, it is completely free!
Yeah, it is free to read online. We do have an app called the Book of Mormon to only read the book, or there’s an app called “Gospel Library” that has the Book of Mormon in it and literally everything else we look into and read. There are magazines, general conference talks from the 1970’s and quite a bit more for anyone that wants to
Great video. Thanks for sharing this.
Thanks for this inspiring conversation!
Think of 3rd Nephi as a preview of the second coming.
I never questioned chapter 8 as I saw it in harmony with the prophecy of the second coming explained in the Bible that there will be darkness the wicked will be cast out and there will be weeping whaling and nashing of teeth.
I appreciate your insight. I've always viewed the events of 3 Nephi 8 as a plea for repentance, a cry from God for his people to return to him.
Excellent and intriguing conversation. I learned a lot about evangelicalism. Thank you.
I see why you feel that way about Jesus from this section. Modern Christianity for a lot of people paints Jesus as an open-arm loving figure who never really comes down on anyone with consequences or hard truths. But His expectations for us are real, not just vague pleas to let Him love us. We need to follow him with actions not just words. We need to change our lives and habits to follow Him not just say we accept Him. We do face consequences for sin.
Agreed. Jesus Christ told the Pharisees that they were of their father the devil because they refused to believe that he was God. John 8. Christ said that their sins would not be forgiven and they would be condemned.
I'm really glad you did this one differently than the other Book of Mormon videos. First, it's such a personal thing to read the visitation of the Savior. Second, there's a lot to process. I would love to hear your thoughts on how your perspective and understanding has changed since you started this journey. I know it hasn't been that long, but I can definitely see a difference in your willingness to set aside preconceived ideas and build bridges.
Like 3 Nephi 27, I have been reading Alma 37 verses 6-7 and verses 33-38 everyday for about 5 months now because at its core, the gospel of Christ is so simple and beautiful. We humans make it complicated sometimes, but it's really not. That clarity is part of why I love the Book of Mormon.
I cannot wait to hear you talk about chapter 27. That chapter had me in tears recently.
Jeff! Met you today at Panera bread..yah I wanted to talk to you so bad, when I did I was like…uh idk what to say😂Got emotional and couldnt speak.
Welcome to Utah!!!! Ive been watching your journey since your first video and I have so much respect for you. I love how respectful you are of others, such a great example of a true christian! Thank you for all You do!
It was so great to meet you today! Thank you for saying hi. I appreciate your kind and encouraging words. This is such an important conversation and I’m glad you’re part of it. Maybe we’ll run into each other again sometime! 😁
I think it really helped to have both Greg and Jeff together to give better context, depth and meaning to the Book of Mormon, also in relationship to the Bible. An understanding counter voice I believe is so important. It also helps to not get caught up and go on tangents on typical stereotypes, biases and hang ups that have been circulating in “traditional Christendom” since the beginning of the Restoration of the LDS faith. Best review so far! Thanks guys!
@cwicshow - Great job Greg! Enjoyed some of your insight. I think it really helped. Keep it up! 🤙🏻
I love the relationship that you and Greg have forged!
Awesome video... God bless you both!!!!
Thank you Pastor Jeff, that was amazing explanation ❤
Keep reading! The Bible is the Hor's D'oeuvres, The Book of Mormon is the Main Course, but the Dessert is the Doctrine & Covenants that takes it over the top, Opening the Veil back to God!! The Full feast of God! Keep going, step by step, here a little, there a little. Good format process in this one!
The Pearl of Great Price is even better, but only after the Witness I received. And if anything because of that Witness the Bible is even better.
@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr So the Book of Enoch is a Fraud?
@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr How is it Fan Fiction?
This comment is both enlightening and alarming. Sad, really. So much deception.
I enjoyed hearing the conversation, it resolved the difficulties of previous BOM videos.
I am surprised that Chapter 8 is what is hard for many Evangelicals. Very different view of seasons and God. Only thing I think I can add to that is that the division between how God is in the OT and NT is emphasis, they really are the same three beings with the same perfect but deep character. I like what CS Lewis observed, he is not a tame lion.
Love this content! Thank you!
I was told as an Evangelical everyone born before Jesus came was left to burn in Hell. I have Gideon Pamphlets that essentially hint at the idea that this guy who came to Jesus was Saved but his Sister was Not. And the church I grew up in also taught me, that Latterday Saints are going to burn in Hell. And gave no reason for it.
I also didn't expect chapter 8 to be a road block. I can see the old testament and new have very different tones, but I never realized that people thought there was an actual functional difference in God before Christ's mortal ministry versus after. I guess we've really internalized the whole "God is the same yesterday, today, and forever" motif.
I do struggle seeing a Jehovah I recognize in the directions for the various genocides that the Israelites returning from Egypt were directed to do. :-\. But ya, Christ is our judge and our merciful savior at the same time.
...I wonder, when we get to talk with those who wrote the old testament, if we will be able to see a difference in how Christ interacted before his mortal ministry versus after? Or, alternatively , if it'll be more recognizable and the record keepers accidentally added a slant somewhere along the way. I mean, they had to track them for quite a long time. Maybe their own biases and attitudes snuck into the record?
@@user-iz7dq6us4m
Romans 4 tells how people in the Old Testament were justified before a holy God. "Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness." God imputed to Abraham and King David his own righteousness. As a result, they were made perfect.
It is the same way today.
God requires perfection to get into heaven. You need the righteousness of God. Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect.
When I repented of my sins and put my faith in what Christ has already done for me on the cross, God forgave me of all my sins and imputed to me his righteousness, which is the righteousness of God. God filled me with his Holy Spirit and granted me the gift 🎁 of eternal life.
Hebrew 10:14
For by one offering Christ hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.
I have peace with God by faith.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, being justified by faith we have peace with God. 🕊 💕
********
The reason Latter-day Saints will not be in heaven is because they worship an exalted man from another planet rather than their Creator. This is called idolatry.
They also have a 'Christ,' who is a created being the brother of Satan. This is called blasphemy.
The Christ of the Bible claimed to be God.
Finally, they are trusting in what they can do for God rather than in what Christ has already done for them. 😔
Christ has already done the one work that was necessary to reconcile us to God when he shed his blood on the cross, died, and rose again.
I Corinthians 15
No one in hell will ever be able to say that they don't belong there. God is always fair and just.
Great video, Jeff.
This was Awesome!
YAY!! It’s been so long 😢❤
i believe it was to cleanse and to take the more wicked away, so that the others had a chance to have free agency to choose Jesus Christ or the wicked path.
I love the study, questions, and discussion. Even as a long-time LDS member, I am learning through your videos. Thank you.
Even when a spiritual connection is made with this second testament of Jesus Christ, it must be extremely difficult to set aside a good income source and a public reputation that supports the family. Oh, how I admire the apostles, Peter and Paul. They were amazing.
Pastor Jeff, I'm a little late to the party, and this note may not be seen, but I had an interesting thought while you were discussing 3 Nephi 8. One of the things you don't get in the New Testament is a clear contrast of the judging Lord of the Old Testament and the merciful Savior of the New. Not without pulling from all of the bible, at least. More importantly, you don't see much of what it means to live under his direction and teaching as a society. The Book of Mormon perhaps provides that -- the destruction and judgement occurs for this people BEFORE He comes and teaches them.
When He appears, for this people that becomes the moment that shift happens. And it creates a beautiful juxtaposition of the difference between the old law and the new. Significantly, it also goes on to portray what life becomes when the whole of a people live according to His teachings. Having those three things collected in one place and in such close proximity serves as a very strong lesson on what that change you mentioned really means.
Additionally, I genuinely wonder whether the society of the Nephites after the appearance of Jesus to them would have been possible had they not been first prepared to listen because of the judgement and destruction that happened.
I thank you pastor for your love of Jesus Christ and truely wanting to understand. I have gone been apart of other evangelical meetings and loved them. one was with pastor mike atkins then at river crossing in jackson hole wy. i went to the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints, then i would go the evangelical meetings and i loved praises our savior Jesus, and I could listened to pastor mike all day because of his knowledge of the bible. I also know the book of Mormon is true as well as the bible to be true. i believe the book of Mormon is the stick of Joseph and the bible is the stick of Judah.
The true and living God of the Bible offers forgiveness of sins, salvation, eternal life, and exaltation for free if you are interested. That is how much God loves you! ❤️
In the Bible, God commanded that only one temple was to be built. There was also only one high priest at a time. This contradicts the Book of Mormon.
Jesus Christ never required anyone to believe the Book of Mormon was true to get to the 'top level' of heaven.
@@Elizabeth-rk3doNone of that is true. And the person you responded to was wrong about the Book of Mormon being the stick of Joseph. It’s the stick of Ephraim. The Lord has given us temples, prophets and apostles in all dispensations of the gospel.
@@donaldjones9830 You should read the Bible. The Bible says otherwise.
Jesus Christ is my living Prophet, Priest, and King! (Hebrews 1)
Some things are true.
I know that my sins have been forgiven. I know that I have been made perfect because Christ has given me his righteousness, which is the righteousness of God. I know that I have eternal life and will live forever with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 💕
"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
@@Elizabeth-rk3do My original comment stands. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only true and living church on earth.
@@Elizabeth-rk3do The Book of Mormon is true. God has said so by the Spirit, which makes your statement false.
Eternal means God, so eternal life is becoming a God. And the Bible teaches the coming forth of the Book of Mormon as they are companion scriptures
Concerning the destruction that takes place in 3rd Nephi 8, let’s also remember that the new covenant, one of mercy, has only been established in the eastern world. For the Nephites, they haven’t seen Christ yet, He hasn’t established the new covenant with them, and they don’t receive until after He came on earth. Only by Jesus can a new covenant be established.
I’m from Mexico , I know that Guatemala and Mexico , since we remember, there is ruins pyramids and the white bearded God that came and help them, teach them, heal them , and he promised to come back one day , and later on , centuries later they confused the Spaniards with God , but most importantly the mention Of the white God in Mexico call him “Quetzalcoatl”
Quetzalcoatl is an Aztec feathered serpent. He also put himself on fire and his heart rose up to become Venus.
@@BGCflyer that is the google version of things but Quetzalcoatl the god of learning, of writing, and of books, Quetzalcóatl was particularly venerated in the calmecac, religious colleges annexed to the temples, in which the future priests and the sons of the nobility were educated. Outside of Tenochtitlán, the main centre of Quetzalcóatl’s cult was Cholula, on the plateau region called Mesa Central. Also is called Viracocha in some regions but most importantly, me growing up hearing this things, that a white bearded man , came to this continent, that all related to the Book of Mormon, VIRACOCHA is well known trough out South America and Mexico
“I have no enemies but for the truth’s sake. I have no desire but to do all men good. I feel to pray for all men. We don’t ask any people to throw away any good they have got; we only ask them to come and get more. What if all the world should embrace this Gospel? They would then see eye to eye, and the blessings of God would be poured out upon the people, which is the desire of my whole soul.” - Joseph Smith
That was an amazing video. As a lds I learned a lot from you today. I wish you could listen to the song "This is the Christ" from the Tabernacle Choir. It is related to 3Nephi 11. The lyrics are very profound.
The Nephites were still under the Law of Moses, so Jesus, as Jehovah, could not abide the sin, thus the destruction. Christ had not yet delivered the higher law to the Nephites. It's still in line with Christ.
I think this was much better than Jeff's other BOM review videos. It's nice to have someone LDS to have their feelings and interpretations of the reviewed scriptures.
I don't know what this video is going to say yet and I have not seen your previous Book of Mormon reviews, but I love your videos. I love your open mindedness. But also I love your love. And any insights you bring up will be both interesting and valuable to me. I don't care if you are critical. The criticism of a genuine loving person who is truthful is worthy. So I am very eager to hear what you say. God bless you.
God loves you so much that he sent Jesus to be the propitiation for your sins. God knew that you could never measure up to his standard of perfection. Matthew 5:48
So, God sent Jesus Christ to be your substitute on the cross. Christ has done the one work that was necessary to reconcile you to God when he shed his blood on the cross, died, and rose again.
(I Corinthians 15) That's the gospel, the good news.
Like the thief on the cross, all you need to do is repent of your sins and put your faith in Jesus Christ. ❤️
Please read the New Testament. 🕊
@@Elizabeth-rk3do Please read the Book of Mormon
@@goodtoGoNow1956 I have read the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is historically inaccurate starting with I Nephi 1. The Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible, the Doctrine and Covenants and the later teachings of Joseph Smith.
God bless you! 🙏
I have been looking forward to this video! And how wise to invite Gregg to help you understand more clearly the teaching found in 3 Nephi and to share your thoughts and understanding of what you are reading in the Book of Mormon 3 Nephi! Here is a thought to maybe help you understand the passages that sound alot like the New Testament teachings... Jesus Christ and His gospel are the same, yesterday, today, and forever, so yes, it would sound a lot like the New Testament teaching. I think you would expect our Savior to teach the same gospel wherever and whenever He taught. Sometimes teaching deeper, more clearly His gospel to those better prepared to hear and do what He teaches. You really are amazing, and I believe we do believe in the same Jesus... our understanding of Him and His gospel may be a little different, I think we are learning from each other! Thank you for allowing us to share this journey with you! That cruise sounds great. Wish I could afford it! Hopefully, you will share with us the things learned and shared on those cruises!
I love these videos so much as a Latter Day Saint and to hear the gospel from different perspectives.
Love your content.. I've learned much
I love this! It is so nice to see through both of your eyes the differences and enlightenment you share is wonderful. The one thing that kept going through my mind when speaking about the destruction that had occurred and how pastor Jeff did not recognize this as the Christ he knew, was to me the time Christ overturned tables at the temple. He cleared a pathway for the presence of righteousness. Is it possible there was so much exchanging and purchasing around the temple grounds it was hard to “see” the temple? Would it have been difficult for Christ to stand in the presence of such wickedness in the Americas that he couldn’t have been seen or received because the mind and presents of the people were cluttered with extreme wickedness so the Lord cleared a pathway, only then could the people “hear” him? Just something I was impressed to question.
Good point
As you were discussing the "Judgement" segment and arrival Christ being one of mercy, I see some parallel between the destruction in 3 Nephi 8 and Christ's reaction during the cleansing of the Temple on palm Sunday.
Pastor Jeff is joining the speaker circuit on Go and Do cruises! Oh my gosh. That's epic.
Fantastic!!!
Regarding the Judgment aspect of 3rd Nephi you are spot on because 3rd Nephi is meant to be symbolic of the Lord’s Second Coming. So we look to 3rd Nephi to better teach us what happens in the second coming.
This is part of the overall mission of the Book of Mormon, which is to be a guide for us as to what happens in our day.
I was going to say something very similar
A good thing to remember is that the Book of Mormon is a scale model of Earth. Including the second coming.
You are one of the few LDS that considers 3 Nephi symbolic. I hope others can see it as such and not literal.
Fascinating perspective. I’d love to hear more.
@@Zeett09 I’m sorry if I gave you the impression that I don’t believe in the literal events of the Book of Mormon or 3 Nephi. What I am trying to say is that the Book of Mormon has many parallels to the events of the second coming, and the events described in the 7 seals of Revelation. The 7 seals represent the 7000 years from Adam to the second coming. I believe in the brass plates, the creation was talked about. The events of 3 Nephi are representative of the days before the second coming, and the grand second coming itself, with 4 Nephi going over the 1000 years of peace (the millennium) and the end of the Book of Mormon shows what it will be like when Satan is loosed.
3rd Nephi 11 was my conversion / confirmation of the Book of Mormon.
I enjoyed this, thanks Jeff.
I love the cross with the windows in the background!
It us good to remember this section of the book of mormon is a foreshadowing of things to come in preparation for the Second Coming of Christ
Pastor Jeff, I have very much enjoyed your ministry of "fighting criticism with curiosity." It's been inspiring. I was studying my scriptures this morning out of 1 Nephi 19:11-17. It may help put 3 Nephi 8 into perspective. I felt impressed to share. It would appear that Judgement was prophesied to occur to the "isles of the sea" in the very manner described at the time of Christ's death; and also that the inhabitants of Jerusalem would endure the judgement of God in mortality for generations to come for their actions. All this is softened by the "Nevertheless"( vs. 15) made possible through His covenants with the Children of Israel. God is merciful! But there is no mercy without justice. There cannot be one without the other. I am so grateful for both God's mercy and God's judgement. They bless my life and give me hope. I think we will all be simultaneously awed by His mercy, and led to exclaim, "thy judgements are just." It couldn't be any other way. My only intention is to help bring perspective to something that was hard to understand. I wish all the best and a Happy Christmas season.❤
If Pastor Jeff realizes that the advent of Christ ushers in a new 'dispensation', of Grace over Judgement, isn't that exactly what's happening in 3 Nephi 8? Jeff's point was an enlightening revelation to me. Christ is clearing the way for a new teaching, a new Gospel, a new era of Grace over Judgement. Isn't this confirmed by the statement "In me is the Law of Moses fulfilled."? To me that underlines Pastor Jeff's point rather than representing a challenge. But clearly he reacted differently to it.
The Book of Mormon (and other latter-day revealed scripture) will always be a closed text to those who aren't ready or willing to receive further light and knowledge from the Lord.
Pastor Jeff, I’m trying to understand your concerns involving God’s judgment of nations as related to 3 Nephi 8. I’ve read many discourses from mainstream Christian authors explaining God’s prerogative to “judge the nations” (Psalm 110:6) without reference to particular age(s) of time when God would withhold such judgment.
I’ve always held to the understanding expressed by George Mason, an Episcopalian member of the Constitutional Congress, “As nations cannot be rewarded or punished in the next world, they must be in this. . . . by an inevitable chain of causes and effects Providence punishes national sins by national calamities.”
This is your best BoM video to date. The BoM also states that all nations except for the Jews would have repented and accepted his message. So why would he bring destruction to the Americans but not to the Jews?
2 Nephi 10: 3
Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ-for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name-should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him-for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.
For should the mighty miracles be wrought among other nations they would repent, and know that he be their God.
Um but God did bring destruction to the Jews that's why they had the whole scattering of Israel. Many died and only the less wicked lived on.
And the book of Mormon said the Jews would come to recognize that Jesus was the Messiah at the last days. That was one of the signs that Christ was coming again.
Jesus never hurt anyone in Jerusalem during or after his mortal life.
Babylon scattered the Jews and destroyed the temple 600 years before Jesus. The Romans destroyed the second temple 35 years after Jesus died.
I had this question too because it mentions that they the Jewish leaders were so wicked that no other people would crucify him. So clearly at least some of them were wicked enough to be destroyed.
But if there had been wide spread destruction at the time of Christ in the biblical lands, the records in history would have been about that and not about His sacrifice??? Just my thoughts right now.
Romans destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Abomination of desolation prophesied by Daniel interpreted with multiple fulfillments, including this one.
Im shocked he isnt moved by feeling the Redeemers wounds received by taking our sins upon his body. Knowing your Savior is from knowing he is your Savior! There is no progression without faith, voluntary change and repentance, and therefore knowing the Savior and God and their plan for us. We call it the plan of happiness.
We are the reason for the nail prints in his hands and feet, he was sacrificed for us... Really enjoyed the video... cant wait for part 2!
Thank you Jeff for all you are doing . God be with you 😂❤❤😂😊.
I’ll echo what others have said about chapter 8- faith is required before knowledge is given (and this is done out of mercy so we’re held accountable in a fair way at the final judgment- He doesn’t want to give a pure witness of things we’re not ready to live by, so He makes sure we have faith enough to live in accordance with the knowledge He wants to send). In the New Testament He appeared to some as a resurrected being (so they could be witnesses), but not to the whole. The people in the Book of Mormon had not only fallen from a higher knowledge, but they were about to, on the whole, receive a higher knowledge and it would not be merciful to give that witness to wicked people who wouldn’t be able to live accordingly. Also as Latter Day Saints, we don’t see destruction with the same perspective because we believe the chance to be saved is not over after we die. They can still be taught and make choices that will bring salvation. The way Christs visit was experienced in the Book of Mormon was definitely more a preview of what to expect in the last days and because of that, it can help us prepare.
How do we deal with the Lamanites "skin became white like unto unto the Nephites"? We rewrite it in our minds to say countenance and totally change the words so that we don't have to deal with how incredibly racist it really is.
Such a great discussion. Love these two together, sharing theologies. Greg’s dad (Jeff!) was my Bishop when I was a teen and then in college. The Matsen’s are an amazing family.
I didn’t know Greg (and his wife) very well. They were those super-cool older kids when I was young.💛
Thank you. At least my wife was cool.
Your thoughts and feelings about 3 Nephi 8 are insightful and helpful. Thanks for sharing so thoroughly.
I often write the stories of The Book of Mormon to my local newspaper, and I remember the first time this chapter hit me funny was when I was writing about "Easter in the Book of Mormon". I had read that chapter a few dozen times in my life, but not until trying to share it publicly did it occur to me that the way Jesus is speaking here might be unrecognizable to many other Christians. I didn't have space to address that in my article, but the conclusion I came to was similar to what many commenters here are saying about Jesus appearing as a lion to the Nephites, in a sort of representation or foreshadowing of what the second coming will be like for the wicked.
Anyway, great video. I look forward to part 2.
This was very civil. Thank you, I especially appreciate the perceptive on ch 8. I had never thought about that before. Question I was thinking about ch 8. While it does seem different from the Jesus of the new Testament do think it fits more with the tone of the god of the Old Testament or is it it’s own separate tone? Anyway, thank you fir the video and I hope you enjoy your day
I'm glad you are still reading, 3rd Nephi is Amazing!
I also love when Jesus in 3 Nephi 23 reviews their records and makes sure they document that people were resurrected (like what is referenced in Matthew).
Great Video, Jesus is the creator of this world under the direction of the Father but it is He who called out the Elements as they obeyed His voice and formed that which He wanted created