Yea gets me every time to think about Gimlis massive Lungs to get this tone out of it XD I one played a tuba and my breath lasted for 1 whole second XD
It should be noted, and probably has been, that a lot of these flaws are created by the way the movie chose to depict the fortress. Tolkien describes it as being much closer to the head of the valley with an outer perimiter at Helm's Dyke as well as the deeping wall being used to prevent an attacker moving to surround the fortress on three sides. It should also be noted that in the books the fortress is not undermanned, they even have enough forces to partially man the dyke.
@@justinmorgan2126 you can say it is rubbish in the book, but the film representation isn't accurate. And the original commenter presents SOME of the reasons it isn't, citing description in the book, while you just say "yeah it's accurate" without supporting that claim.
The first part of analysis I have a problem with. In pre-feudal societies (I guess this is what the authors were going for) it was quite common to have a fortress or a mound where the entire tribe could hide if raided, usually near where they lived. These were not permanantly manned, with rudimentary defenses - wooden walls and towers but not much else, almost always on a hill (I know this from Baltic history, where the feudalism came really late, and earlier social structures persisted). These could hold thousands of people for short periods of time. The point of these defences was to wait out the enemy, because the enemy almost always raided, and rarely attempted sieges, because of the constant lack of food to forage.
To prove the authors point, even in that scenario, helms deep is still a poor choice. It had walls, many, many things that require maintenence including seige engines, food stores, many large walls, ect. There is NO WAY a place like that was a 'temporary stronghold' Perhaps something like a cave might do for what you suggest but not Helms Deep. Helms deep is a poor stronghold. Even if we account for the 'tunnels for the women and children' as a line of resupply, Im fairly sure itd require dwarves/elves to supply them or else; where they left to get to Helms Deep. Also with Rohan being a CALVARY focused army, Helms Deep makes EVEN LESS sense as a stronghold since most of their combat prowess comes from mounted combat. All in all, Helms Deep is actually a death sentence for the people of Rohan and hence why Gandalph had to come save them. "Theodin, your King stands alone." As someone who has studied warfare and history the past 7 years; I can also draw direct connotations from LotR and IRL historical combat. Winged Hussars are pretty much Theodin. Tolkien wrote much of his Germanic history in his books and many combats are based on IRL events. Most involve WW1 and WW2 but there are a few notes of things before and after- they are just usually less epic fights. Part of what makes Tolkins combats so epic is that he bases on history and then twists it into his stories. I wish someone would write a history book based on Tolkiens writing style. Itd sell and teach many.
@@shupichii9647 you're not a historian you're just a history buff. Mongols can and did fortify their positions and fight defensive sieges all the time. The strategy is called shatter point, which of course you didn't know. You just let the enemy keep coming at you until they're broken enough to where it doesn't matter if the defense is lost. It did its job so that future attacks in the region are dramatically weakened. It's a carefully selected area and statement to the enemy of "you won this time but at what cost." So all the resources spent are worth it because it IS being sacrificed so the other defenders can counter attack, which is exactly what a cavalry focused army would want, the enemy to be stuck in one place while the rest of them can move around.
@@shupichii9647 The maintenance of the walls is moot. The Deeping Wall is solid rock. It's not made of rocks, it's solid rock with a smooth surface as it's possible the whole Hornburg was as well. Isengard which lay opposite was made of even more magical stuff, being the same dark stone that the lower walls of Minas Tirith were made of. It was made with Numenorian technology and it wasn't until much later that the fortress was given over to Rohan. The layout of the inside suggests that that fortress was designed to rally from on horseback, hence the sloped causeway. The lack of drawbridge though is an oversight, it should have one and the point about the rocks falling down is a good one too unless the cliffs behind the fortress are somehow magically sealed from landslips. Saruman was able to whip up a storm to prevent the fellowship from crossing the mountains, you'd think he could do the same with Helm's Deep so maybe there was some ancient magic at play. Gandalf had to save them because too few warriors were available to defend the fortress, it was what was available in Edoras at the time and the King's bewitchment likely meant much of the Rohirrim were scattered across the Kingdom looking after their own areas. In the movie at least. In the book the fortress was well defended by around 3000 men which is a very good size to fight off 10,000 from the safety of a fort. Gandalf arrives with Erkenbrand and 1000 Rohan infantry to save the day while huorns from Isengard form a second relief army. In the book Eomer goes to Helm's Deep and helps defend it beside Aragorn and Gimli.
@@lastsong7159 That was addressed early in the video. For that strategy to work you need the enemy to want to take the fortress, but the exact location that it's located is useless. It doesn't hold a passage, doesn't overlook a vast area and its ability to project power can be neutralized by fortifying the relatively narrow mouth of the valley. No sane commander would waste men, resources or time on taking such a fortress.
If I remember correctly Helm's Deep is what is called a "Fluchtburg" in my german mothertongue - I don't know whether there is an english equivalent or whether google translate rather came up with a blunt literal translation when it put out "escape castle" (edit: meanwhile I learned that the correct english translation is _"refuge castle"_ - which despite being pretty obvious didn't occur to me for some reason). However - this type of fortress was neither intended to control an area nor as a permanent home for a lord, but as a temporary refuge in case of a superior enemy approaching. Civilians as well as military units could flee there and wait until their country's main force would have pushed out the enemy and the countryside being save again, or reliving them in case of a siege. Such fortresses had been in use in reality: For instance the slavic tribes who settled the east of modern germany which previously had been abandoned by the local germanic tribes during the migration period employed this concept in the early medival era (Eventually the east of Germany got occupied by german crusaders in the 13th century and german settlers followed on foot - but the slavic sorbs and wends managed to preserverve their distinct language, culture and identity to this day and are officially recognized as Germany's only autochtone minority, with for example bilingual public signs and schools in their home regions as well as their own media.) They set up circular walls made of soil and wood, surrounded by a trench and with palisades on top all over their tribal territories to keep their non-combatants and lifestock who would have been extremly vulnerable in their scattered homes and small farms save during hostile raids while their warriors would fend off the enemy. The remains of said "fleeing fortresses" are still visible to this day - mostly from above because the flora differs slightly where wall and trench once had been located, but sometimes there even are very eroded circular traces left of the wall/trench as such. One of these fortresses got reconstructed a few years ago on its original location in the german state of Brandenburg (the search term "Slawenburg Raddusch" will bring up images in case you are interested). I might be wrong, but I think to remember that Helm's Deep served the same purpose - which would defeat some initial points of your criticism. Helm's Deep's weird additional wall which supposedly would have little purpose in case of a "regular castle" could serve as a somewhat save enclosure for the lifestock (in case of Rohan mostly horses probably - and in this context the little creek suddenly makes sense) while the civilians and some accompanying military units would occupy the actual fortress. I don't mean to claim that Helm's Deep is a perfect design - I just think you might have misunderstood its purpose and the way it's employed. I imagine it as a left-over from a time when military campaigns weren't yet about total annihilation or defeat/permanent occupation but rather looting expeditions based on a "hit and run" approach - the enemy would rather plunder settlements and steal lifestock instead of trying to break the walls of a fortress filled with farmers and peasants for the most part. It's not about being invincible but rather not being worth the effort - a good comparison might be a concerned home owner's _panic room:_ In case of an intruder the house's inhabitants can flee there and lock themselves in - it doesn't prevent the intruder from freely roaming the house and steal whatever valuables he likes best, but the inhabitants are save for the moment and can wait until help arrives or the culprit has left. The average home intruder wouldn't have the means to break such a panic room to begin with, but even if he had it wouldn't be worth the time and effort which could be put to better use by collecting loot and getting away before the authorities arrive. At bottom line one could say that such refuge castles were nothing but inflated panic rooms, serving precisely the same purpose on a tribal scale. I'm pretty fascinated by this idea and found that the concept is pretty unknown nowadays even within medival and/or fantasy enthusiast communities although it's interesting and actually a pretty obvious idea.
@@MrCosinuus Thanks for your addition! Coincidentally the very same reconstructed _refuge castle_ I was referring to in my initial comment gets shown in the article's introduction - the slavic castle Raddusch in Lusatia, a region which is named after the western slavic tribe of the lusatians to this day ("Lausitz" derived from "Lusitzi")! Well, actually I should have figured out to look up the german term in wikipedia and change to the associated english article in order to learn it's english equivalent all by myself.. I can't remember whether I just had been too lazy - maybe I'm just stupid. 😅 Thanks again and greetings from Berlin!
For context: Unfortunatly the comment I replied to isn't visible here appearently. Peter Peterson posted an english Wikipedia link about the *_refuge castle_* concept: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refuge_castle
Not quite. The men of Gondor didn't build Helm's Deep as a place of refuge. It was used in conjunction with Isengard as military posts to control the region near what was later known as the Gap of Rohan. They later _gave_ the keep to the people of Rohan who used it in several instances as a place of refuge for people in the western parts of Rohan. Note that people in the eastern parts of Rohan would use Dunharrow as a place of refuge.
A few pieces of criticism: helms deep was actually more strategically placed than you think. During the time period both helms deep and Isengard were owned by Gondor, they were sister forts protecting the gap of Rohan, and Gondor’s western border. Of course, in Lotr saruman owns Isengard and is opposed to Rohan, so dunlendings could just cross through from Isengard… which they did. Also, the deeping wall protected the glittering caves, and as you had mentioned 2 minutes ago, this was where the population of Rohan would retreat to in case of an invasion. The purpose of helms deep, by the time of lotr was to house the population of Rohan if any major large scale invasion were to happen. The gate: yes, it should have a drawbridge and moat, I completely agree. But either this was an extended edition scene or you just forgot, the rohirrim did bar the gate with timber. Merlons: I’m 90% sure helms deep was built by the dwarves, but I may be wrong. However, if I’m correct, that means the merlons were fine at the time of the construction, as gimli complains about being unable to see the Uruk hai. Of course, the rohirrim absolutely should have made them taller. Gate part two electric boogaloo: yeah okay helms deep deserved that roasting. Not having the second gate was a mistake. The horn: don’t insult helm hammerhand’s horn. That’s a very important part of rohirric history that I’m too lazy to go into, this comment is already long enough. I’d recommend looking helm hanmerhand up though.
Helm's Deep was originally constructed by the men of Gondor, long before the people who would eventually be known as the Rohirrim lived in that area, Dwarves never inhabited that area until Gimli would lead a group there to colonize the glittering caves after the war of the ring. As for the situation with Isengard, yes, i know that the idea was that a fortress on each opposing end of the Gap would provide a defense against incursion, my only real issue with that logic is the vast amount of land between the two, and the fact that orcs don't typically come to siege and conquer, but to raid, so this type of defense would not work as well against them. As for barring the gate, yes, they nail some fresh boards on, and brace it with timbers once the Uruks have already smashed through with their ram, but that is all too little too late. If that was your one and only gate and you needed to rely on it to keep the hoards out, you would build in semi permanent supports and reinforce it to imitate a wall. I also get the idea of the horn of Helm Hammerhand, and think its bad ass. I'm just saying, thats a lot of resources to devote to something that serves little to no strategic advantage when leaving the rest of the fortress very poorly defended.
@@ParryThis the idea was to counter hostile men of Miniriath and Edenwaith (Dunlandings) also if they had a cavalry force they could easily intercept the land in the middle of the two (in Tolkien’s world cavalry forces can go long distances as seen in Simirillion)
Your first point is a little flawed, according to Tolkien lore, Gondor use to own the Rohan region including isengard but gave Rohan to the men coming from the north. Since Helms Deep is technically a Gondorian fortress, it makes sense that it is stone, also in the movie they did add timber to the doors to the Hornburg
I wasn't saying that it being made of stone was a flaw, i was simply pointing out that if it were an Anglo Saxon fort, it wouldn't look like this, architecturally speaking.
@@ParryThis I didn't say that you said this was a flaw, I'm saying it wouldnt really matter by design since the design was from another "nation" if you will. Think of it like a British 1700 army taking over an Ottoman Empire fortress for example, its just there already they would adapt to it but yeah the point I'm trying to make...
Yeah, the Deeping Wall makes more sense in the books where the entrance to the Glittering Caves is actually behind _it_ rather than being accessed via the keep as it is in the movie. It'd actually interesting to see you react to the design of the Hornburg as sketched by Tolkien himself, as well as the version from the Tolkien atlas that I believe is based on that sketch. It's not perfect, but it has a few features that make more sense than the films. The Uruks never get through the gate, for one, except right at the end by blowing it up with another bomb.
Just looked it up, and you're right. The fortress is protected by two walls, it's a little bit away from the mountain walls and on top of a hill, the river actually goes right alongside most of the hill the fortress is on, and the deeping wall is clearly only meant to protect the entrance to the glittering caves, not the fortress. Still no drawbridge and still the weak point in the deeping wall from the river though. :P
@@Sanquinity Other things worth noting, I think; the inner wall of the fortress is a complete circle rather than a semi-circle buried into the cliff at both ends; the Deeping Wall is almost parallel to the causeway, and the rear gate is exactly (or almost so) opposite the main gate; the Burg, the tower that holds the Horn itself, is the keep of the fortress, surrounded by both walls, rather than being a narrow tower attached to the outer wall, and thus there's no main hall buried into the rock.
I also looked it up. That's actually a pretty sweet fortress. I understand why they did what they did for the movie, and it looks great, but Tolkien's Helms deep is clearly superior
@@DirtyDan77 It does still have some issues, but those could mostly be chalked up to the layout of the terrain they had to work with. The no draw bridge thing though, that was definitely an oversight from Tolkien. :P
The Deeping Wall in the movie would make sense if it was used to hold back water. lots of water. ad a nice stockpile of something like oil and this setup would be near perfect to annihilate a besieging army. the weaknesses then would serve as the honey on the trap...
You miss a very important point - a lot of the features you say were missing such as drawbridges and murder holes, portcullis etc were only introduced as a direct result of lessons learnt after medieval kings read the Lord of the Rings
In the book it is said that helms deep was built by the Numenorians, Not Rohan, the Rohirrim simply took control of it when the land was given to them. also considering its position, and Isengard, and you take into account that this was the northern borders of Gondor they were perfectly strategically placed. Isengard would guard the northern section of Rohan while helms deep would guard the southern like two Guard towers on either side of the gap of Rohan protecting Gondors northern borders.
@@mindstalk True, but originally it was never meant to be an actual city, it was only meant to be a secret place where the kings would be buried. When they eventually converted it into the new capital city, they already had the great wall around it, and in front of that the old capital city of Osgiliath. so I suppose it was almost impossible that any enemy would get that close to it. It was mostly just a show of defence, although in truth it never actually said there was no Gatehouse. At least in the books. It’s simply said the Great doors were blasted open. It never said there wasn’t a portcullis that could not be brought down.
@@ThatSockmonkey Nope. It was originally built by Numenorians and they called it Algarond (Glittering Caves) Helm Hammerhand took refuge there and renamed it Helms Deep in his honor.
In defense of the Deeping Wall. It supports the Glittering Caves, where the civilians find refuge. Its essentially protecting the civilian population while the Keep houses and is a basis of operation for the military as they defend the civilians. Including the ability to launch cavalry charges over the field behind the wall if it was ever breached. But yeah, the rest of this makes sense haha On a historic (middle earth history) note, people have thought that it started as little more then a scouting outpost for Nonminor (before Gondor) that was turned into a fortress by Rohan. And Rohan is a poor nation that was given the area for their service by Gondor. A kingdom of horse lords, not stone masons. It would make some sense they wouldn't have the money, or expertise to upgrade it much beyond provisions, repairs, and maybe that wall to protect the Glittering Caves. When Gimli comes back to rule over the glittering caves with a colony of dwarves, i'm 100% sure they upgraded its defenses ha
Thats true in the book. But in the Peter Jackson movie the glittering caves are accessed via the Keep. Hell they dont even keep the horses behind the Deeping Wall.
5:00, you forget how masterfully Tolkien described Helm's Deep. There was the outer wall called Helm's Dike, which was the first line of defense. There was a battle there, and then the forces of Rohan retreated into Helm's Deep after the outer defenses were overrun.
An entertaining analysis, I may say. It was rather enjoyable and definitely not boring. I am going to watch all of your videos in time. Just wanted to mention something about the first point on the location of Helm's Deep. In ancient years where it belonged to Gondor along with Isengard, it was supposed to guard the Gap of Rohan from western invaders. It was an important "must-have" for Saruman in order to freely deploy Dunledings and other Men from the western borders of Rohan in Rohan. If he can't control both of these fortresses (Isengard & Helm's Deep), he can't effectively control the Gap.
Yeah, that makes sense, looking at the map. Having control of both fortresses, effectively gives you a powerful redundancy if one is threatened, so it would work effectively as a gate for the gap.
You forgot to add that the deeping wall has staircase on it to the keep and appears to have one behind it leading to the crucial horn tower. Which might have doors, but the hefty sheep price on timber might have been too much for.
Helm's Deep is an old fortress of Gondor, perhaps even of Numenor. It was positioned, along with Isengard, to control the Gap of Rohan. It was occupied and adapted by Rohan.
In reguards to the “horn tower”, as described in the book, it was actually a weapon that would produced a ultra low frequency that would stun and confuse the enemy. This kind of weapon was actually utilized in real life, which is where Tolkien got the idea from.
Subsonic frequencies around 9 Hz have been shown to induce fear and panic in people and animals. Governments have used these sonic weapons against protestors, for example in Australia.
I think the Deeping Wall does serve a purpose, as it provides much more wall space for additional archers to shoot at the attackers. Without the Deeping Wall, yes the full force could have been concentrated in the keep, but there wouldn't have anyplace for the extra archers to stand where they could actually shoot the enemy until casualties opened up some wall space. Also, the Deeping Wall provides a source of flanking fire against attackers moving up the causeway to the main gate. The aerial view at 0:39 shows the geometry of this pretty well, and we do see Aragorn directing some of the elven archers to do exactly that during the film battle (the only reason it wasn't more effective was because most of the elves on the wall were occupied fighting hand-to-hand by that point). Also, while I agree with pretty much everything you said about the keep itself (my kingdom for a freaking drawbridge, seriously!), I think the merlon issue was simply a cinematography thing. The filmmakers didn't want their row of heroic, outnumbered, haggard defenders (and Peter Jackson) to be obstructed by a bunch of head-high obstacles. The book does state that the Deeping Wall at least was "sheltered by a parapet over which only a tall man could look", with "clefts in the stone through which men could shoot". I think a lot of the issues you mentioned with the film's version of the keep have more to do with it simply being compacted into a smaller space than that type of fortification would normally need in order for the whole thing to fit into camera shots better.
Yeah, Helm's Dike. Its not a proper fortified structure, but a long earthen wall that stretched across the deeping comb about a quarter mile from the hornburg. It reminds me of Offa's dike from Anglo Saxon England.
@@ParryThis I think what he means is the wall starting at the hornburg. In the book we are told that the entrences to the glittering caves lay in the valley (which where indeed defendeble by arowslitts and so on), where the horses of the army where kept and there were hidden path that led out of the valley for the people to escap. Like you recognice the existenc of Helms Dike, which is only in the books, but then ignore the the existenc of the valley behind Helms Wall just to be able to call the wall a wast of resources.
Helms Deep is where you send the non combatants in a time of crisis. The fighting men of Rohan are cavalry. They need to stay mobile and not be pinned to a slow moving column of civilians. Easiest solution to issue is put the non combatants inside a super strong fortress and defend it with just enough men to hold the walls. While that is happening your army can roam around and get things done.
The Hornburg is a castle, at least in the books- the Helmingas are permanent residents who occupy and maintain the fortress, and their lord is Erkenbrand, who often resides at the Hornburg. So technically yes, it is a castle, it has full-time inhabitants and is a seat of power for a lord.
Yeah, it's a dual use fortress. It's a blocking fortress for the valley and caves (wall) and a fortified seat of power (hornburg/castle). It makes a lot of sense in the book.
The simple reason for this is, that in Book it was differently schemed. In fact I loosely remember to have all things you mentioned was here. I think there was some sort of wall or barricade around valley. I believe there was reasoning for that outer wall to be protecting their water source as well as those caves, that in book were actually behind outer wall. Also it was additionally build recently I think. And issues with inner wall are not to be seen or explored, since they didn´t breach the gate. Although problems with gate are still there in some forms I guess. Also some people mentioned that it was build by Numenorians. I admit it is some time since I red it but I am not really sure if it is case. I remembered backstory of fortress , that one of their kings have survived there and so they build fortress there.
The tragic part is I'm pretty sure Tolkien knew all this and described a much more realistic (and functional) fortress, both for Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith. The Hornburg is built on a "spur of rock", ie.e away from the valley cliff walls, and there are dikes and walls in relatively sensible positions. In fact it's clear he had a much better understanding of medieval buildings and siegeworks than the filmmakers did. He also mentioned farmland, stores of food and water and extended defences in several different settings, none of which you actually see on film unless they're being used for a joke about hobbits' appetites.
the fact food would be wasted on women/children, a siege would have lasted less than a month. Yes, i know, Destroy the Humans, but if you only have a army of 10K, and you are planning on going to war with gondor/Mordor, you beter save as many troops as you can
This hits a lot of the same points I made in my video of the Two Towers film. Although, it should be noted that Tolkien placed the caves in the valley and not the fortress itself. The back staircase acted as an escape route to the caves where all their women, children, and provisions remained. The deeping wall protecting the caves between fortress and mountain. That's why in the book, it was so important for Saruman to seige the deeping wall. If Rohan loses the wall, they lose EVERYTHING. Also, there's a staircase from Deeping wall to the first wall. So if the orcs do take the wall, they'd have another access, but through a choke point. Great point about building another wall between the front, using the river as a natural moat. props on that observation! Also, I think it should be noted that main gates door was built so securely during production that the bodybuilders playing orcs, couldn't break it down, so it needed to be physically weakened for filming. Just thought that was pretty cool trivia. and I do agree Theoden over emphasized his forces to the wall, instead of his fortress. Aragorn also didn't help matters much by arbitrary sending all the elves to slaughter instead of leading a fighting retreat. The battle has tons of issues, but it's still my all time favorite.
Something you missed about the causeway: it bends left. This means that the attacker’s left sides are facing the enemy and, since most attackers are right handed, their shields will be in their left hands, meaning their most protected side is the side facing the enemy
Just a little bit of remind that, Hornburg was not built by Rohan, but Gordor. So It's not meant to protect Rohan nor Edoras of course, but combine it with Isengard these two are Gondor's fortresses to guard the passage we known in later 3rd age as gap of Rohan. And somehow though, If Isengard main army want to attack Rohan, they have to go through the fords of Isen, the only crossing point for a big army to cross River Isen, in which also located near Helm's Deep.
The point of the Deeping Wall is to have a protected open space for stock animals and horses. The fortress was originally paired with Isengard to guard each side of the Gap of Rohan. It's usual purpose was a guard post for the troops guarding the pass so the open space behind the wall could even have been used for small herds of animals. There was another rougher wall across the valley mouth called Helm's Dike which was a ditch and wooden pallisade which likely had its own small detachment to patrol it.
I live in Scotland and grew up with a castle in my back garden. The castle is in the middle of a valley to control the valley. Every other castle in the area (there's about 100) is on the valley floor. None of them are halfway up a mountain apart from 1. The nearby mountain has an iron age fort at the top but anything following that was built at the valley floor. Castles are built in prominent locations to control Valleys. Helms deep would have controlled the valley across from it.
I think the strategic complaint about Helm's Gate's position is unsupportable from a book perspective. Helm's Gate is actually quite well-placed if you consider the road, Rohan's strategic position, and the Rohirric force structure. Obviously the Rohirrim didn't build it, but in the late third age, this was a fortress it made a lot of sense for them to maintain whatever the expense. Rohan had only *one* major road (its portion of the old North-South road which connected Arnor to Gondor), running through the Gap and the Fords of Isen all the way to Anórien. It was roughly parallel to the Ered Nimrais. Edoras was centrally located where this road crosses the Snowbourn river. Rohan was protected from the south by the mountains, from the east by a centuries-old stable alliance with Gondor, and from the north by Fangorn. Now, an overgrown foraging party might carry off some small valuables (e.g. Uglúk's raid) or burn some crofts but neither of these could deal lasting damage. As the Danes learned in their repeated chevauchées into Wessex, thatch burns easily, but is just as easily rebuilt. Furthermore, the all-cavalry balance of Rohan's standing forces makes such ventures very risky because they can respond quickly with superior force (see, again, the fate of Uglúk's company). And raiding parties could not actually challenge the kingdom's stability (Éomer mentions Mordor has conducted horse-raids into the Wold for many years without meaningful strategic impact). Such forces just lack the numbers and siege machinery necessary to take any of Rohan's fortifications. To sustain those necessary numbers and transport those siege engines you need roads. To invade from the northeast (where those horse-raids come from), Mordor would have to march around the marshes and the Emyn Muil, through the Brown Lands, and then cross the Anduin between Lothlórien and Sarn Gebir. That's the next best thing to impossible. Any force put across the river would have to manage over two hundred miles of supply line (without any roads to carry wagons), poor local forage (the Brown Lands were empty and the Wold was sparsely populated), and a big geographic obstacle (the Anduin). Add to that that any such deployment would take be hideously vulnerable (cut it off from the river and it starves and it is beyond reinforcement from Mordor if Gondor sends aid to crush it in isolation) and leave Mordor itself vulnerable (wow, those orcs would take a long time to return home, sounds like the perfect window for a counterattack into Ithilien). As you can see, this operation would buy the Witch-King the worst of both worlds: he has to carve off a significant force and then place it where it Rohan and Gondor have maximal opportunity to coordinate against it (or, failing that, to attack him while it is away). Travel times (communication and reinforcement) between Gondor and Rohan would be likely less than one-quarter that between a hypothetical Mordor expeditionary force and Barad-dûr or Minas Morgul. There are lots of reasons Mordor doesn't try this. This leaves only one practical invasion route whereby an army sufficient to threaten the kingdom could invade Rohan. From the west, through the Gap, along the road. And Helm's Gate is perfectly situated interdict such an invasion. It sits just a few miles of easy riding south of that road. Any attempt to push an army down the road without first investing Helm's Gate is doomed to failure: the Rohirrim can ride out and harass you at their leisure, picking any time and place they please for action. Because of this, Helm's Gate simply cannot be bypassed. Note that we actually have one of Tolkien's sketches of the Hornburg (tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:J.R.R._Tolkien_-_Helm%27s_Deep_and_the_Hornburg.jpg) and it is considerably more practical. You can't just plunk a token force at the mouth of the Deep to seal it in, investing this fortress would be serious work. The dike and the stream essentially require you to deploy twice the manpower you would need or take grievous losses in an initial assault (Saruman chooses the latter). Moreover, because you can expect both significant cavalry in front of you (from the garrison) and also behind you (from the muster of the Rohirrim to repel your invasion), you need both circumvallation and contravallation, which means more manpower. In general, earth works on such scale require either time or labor (at any given time a third of the army will be digging, guarding, or sleeping). So no matter how an invader addresses the fort, it will achieve its strategic function: buying time. Either it stops the entire enemy force dead, or that force has to detach significant strength to prevent a sortie into its rear. Rohan's standing cavalry forces are good, but they are dwarfed by the manpower which can be mobilized in even a few weeks (during the War of the Ring, Théoden was able to raise a thousand horsemen just from the area surrounding Edoras in a single afternoon-the muster of Rohan began on March 2, 3019 and Théoden's rode to Gondor on March 10 with six thousand spears and left four thousand behind, plus an unknown number of infantry. An invading army's best chance for a low-cost victory over Rohan is to attack the fortified administrative center in Edoras and subjugate it before that mobilization can take place. Helm's Gate makes such a maneuver impossible without significantly overwhelming force from the west (note Aldburg does the same from the east). The tactical analysis of the film depiction of the fortress' construction is good though. Peter Jackson always had the habit of messing around with no good reason.
at 6:21 you are going on about how there is nothing behind the deeping wall, while showing on screen a large tent encampment likely full of civilians behind the deeping wall.
I agree with most of the points, but not with everything. 1) Strategic location - it could be in better possition, but it is not true it serves no purpose. If you have some forces there, they are protected so you cannot defeat them, but you have to keep much larger force sieging the fortress so you can occupy the territory. For example if you have some units there, but main forces are in Edoras, you have to either keep large portion of the army there and keep going on Edoras or go with everything you got, but you have enemy forces in your rear waiting for vulnurable time to attack. 2) Agree, that there could be more structures behind the wall, but it does not serve no purpose. There are caves behind it and that is what it defends. In the books some of the army (with Gimli) retreated there and defended the caves, while the main army defended the keep. And that is also why Helms Deep is build here I suppose. To protect the mines. But as I wrote above. I agree with most of what you said. I would give maybe 1 point out of 10 to defendability of the fortress. :D But I love Lord of the Rings anyways! :D
At about 3:15, you say that there is no reason for the Uruk-hai to attack. You evidently have no idea of what an Uruk-hai is - they have one purpose, to kill men. That is their reason to attack.
"Soromon's hordes will plunder and pillage as we've seen before. Crops can be resown. Villages, rebuilt. Within these walls, we will endure." "They do not come to destroy Rohan's crops or villages, they come to destroy its people. Down to the last woman and child."
Purpose of helms deep was always just to be a refuge. Outlast an enemy that burned and destroyed everything and was forced to live off the land. The Uruk-hai were a massive force that had to assault. They knew they’d dwindle in force and starve if they didn’t keep moving. They knew they could just let the Uruk-hai destroy everything and then move on. They’d used helms deep for it before
Purpose of the wall was just to protect those tents tbh. It was a refuge for a different style of warfare then uk medieval. Lot easier to hold a large group of refugees in a larger area. If they could hold that part, they should. They’d probably suffer and have more casualties if they lost the outer wall even if they managed to defend the inner wall better.
the long wall next to the keep protects a water source. very important during a prolonged seige. the stream you mentioned comes from the mountain. If the uruks had seiged helms deep instead and the wall wasn't there, the defenders would have to worry about getting attacked whenever they went outside to get water. the weakness in the wall, being the grate that lets the stream flow, wasn't previously seen as a weakness because explosives were not really a thing up to that point. even grima did not know what saruman was presenting to him when he first showed it to him. its actually kind of nonsensical for grima to recognize it as a weakness since he doesn't know about explosives as a concept to begin with. that grate isn't removable or effectively a point you could exploit otherwise.
@@darbyohara Helms Deep guards one of the few ways of actually getting up the mountains though. By the time you could scale the mountains from without I could have an army waiting for you at the top going up the much easier way protected by the fort. You would have to go miles and miles around to find another practical way up.
It would make sense that a small "town" existed behind the deeping wall to support the military installation with a blacksmith, food production, etc to make it self sufficient. The flaw, as you pointed out, is that this appears to be absent.
(I know i am about 3 years too late) The door next to the main gate isnt even that unrealistic, many castles do have them right next to (or normally right behind the tower protecting) the main gate. One example would be Haut-Koenigsburg in France. But those doorways would protected by overlapping fires, would normally be very well hidden (see Haut-Koenigsbourg again) and have a connection to the main entrance, because who in the world thought that a sallying-door where you have to jump a canyon to actually reach the attacker would be a good idea?
Tactically, it's a dream to defend. Video games are just game's but they can absolutely give excellent examples of if a castle specifically is good or bad, and Mount and Blade Warband is a classic for this. Having defended and sieged Helms deep analogs with 200 players, I promise you, it's harder to siege than many historical castles using the same engine. Walking up the ramp is literally a s*icide mission.
The purpose of HD as built was, twinned with Orthanc, to guard the line of the Isen, Gondor's northwestern border: perfectly logical placement. . It's also worth noting that even if it was 'defending nothing', one could not in a quasi-medieval world simply leave an unreduced fortress in one's rear and march on. Not attack on Edoras could proceed unless HD was taken or invested.
The deeping wall actually protects the glittering caves, which is where the bulk of the women and children were being kept. When it gets breached and the men of Rohan and Aragorn and Legolas have to retreat inside the keep, it’s Gimli who is cut off and forced to retreat back into the cave entrance to defend the women and children. Only reason why the wall failed is cuz Saruman invented explosives.
Even without explosive though, a pre built hole for sappers to get started from is a serious problem. The way walls like that are destroyed is by burrowing under and collapsing it on top.
The deeping wall allows mass archers to wipe out a chunk of the attacking forces and forces them to focus on two places rather than one. Its a tactical fall back as well.
It gives enemy forces more surface area to attack. Archers, on the other hand, don't need to be single-file. You can have row after row of them and all of them can still shoot at the same time. The movie even depicted this with many archers shooting from behind the wall. So having your archers spread out along a long wall is a disadvantage.
My biggest beef with the Battle of Helms Deep is that the tactics used by the Elves were just moronic in the movie. I understand that the bomb caught them with their pants down as it was an unknown technology. Fine. 1) They started firing bows way too late. They should have had markers placed outside the wall to make it super easy to tell when the orks were in range and immediately start firing. Don't wait around and let the orks march right up to the wall before you start. 2) After the bomb went off and orks started to come through the gap, the elves charged them almost immediately. That was really really dumb. They had high ground and distance advantage. They should have focused fired at the gap to plug the hole with dead orks while performing an orderly retreat to the keep once the wall is overrun. Or they could have provided the troops on the far side of the gap a chance to retreat down from the wall and abandon that side to reinforce the near side wall and continue to pepper the gap with arrows. There was no need to go on a suicide run right off the bat.
@@chuckhoyle1211 1) The elves had a limited number of arrows to last the whole night, Theoden needed to buy as much time as possible to allow for the cavalry to arrive. He was maybe hoping the Uruks would not attack straight away and dig in for a siege. Firing arrows prematurely would instigate that, in fact the Uruks may have planned to be more cautious until that one dude fired an arrow accidentally and killed one. 2) That was smart actually, if they didnt move to plug that gap, the Uruks would literally just swarm in and surround the less numerous elves. Arrows wouldn't have stopped them, historically this is accurate, whenever a gap opens up in medieval sieges, you immediately send men to go plug it.
@@Sanquinity That's a really weak argument. As another comment mentioned, having archers attacking from multiple angles (as seen in a star fort) provides a distinct tactical advantage as it forces the enemy force to defend itself from several directions as opposed to one. And as Paul mentioned the deeping wall does function as a diversion from the fortress: if enemy forces are attacking the deeping wall that means they're not attacking the fortress, reducing the efficacy of any siege efforts directed at said fortress. And there's nothing wrong with providing enemy forces with "more surface area to attack" so long as that surface area is separated from the area that you are attempting to defend, which it is in this instance. There is no strategic value to be had from taking the deeping wall, as it is in an equally poor position to assault the fortress as anywhere else outside of it. So yeah, having archers spread out along a long wall is in this particular instance is actually highly advantageous strategically.
I do agree with most your criticism except for 2 points. 1. Location wise it does make. It is perfectly located to watch the Gap of Rohan and being one of the very few ways to pass from one side of the mountains to the other it makes sense to be there. 2. The wall stretches to cover the stream Therefore it's covering a source of water for anyone there.
What is the point of "watching" a place, when you're so easily surrounded and cut off? Anyway, it's all moot, seeing as the book doesn't describe it as it's depicted in the film.
The location is still weird even for that purpose. The obvious location to guard the Gap of Rohan would have been a water castle right inside the Fords of Isen. not a place to "watch" it from a safe distance. Gondor was guarding against attacks from the east, so the most likely function of Helm's Deep would have been as a staging ground for raids into the enemy's supply lines after the main force has already crossed the ford, or at least to force the enemy to leave a sieging force behind to protect his flanks, but that already assumes an organized conquest and not just raiding forces.
@@xergiok2322 when I say watch, I don't mean they just sit in the fort all day with binoculars. I mean that's the base for scouts who patrol the region, or a small army to raid any enemy forces attempting to cross through. With that perspective you don't need to worry about being surrounded because you already have scouts out and around. The fort will keep your small army safe while the scouts go get help.
@@asdf5303 when I say "watch" I don't mean that they are just sitting in the fort all day with binoculars. I mean it's the base for scouts who patrol the region and a small army to, as you suggested, raid any potential enemy forces attempting to cross. From that perspective it just needs to keep the army safe while the scouts who are out and about can go get help if a major force arrives.
I love and appreciate this video. I still love Tolkien, and Helm's Deep, but you seem to have a fair number of good points that I'll use when crafting fortifications from now on.
4:41 If they walled of the valley they would have increased the length of the wall they would have to defend and would leave themselves open to be flanked from the hills on the sides like the Rohirrim charged into the flank of the Uruk-hai army to win the battle
Wasn't there a general who instead of going around a mountain which would add days to their journey just decided to go RIGHT over the mountain losing some men but surprising the enemy with such an unexpected move that they end up winning the battle.
Alexander the Great, when he came across a mountain fortress he'd send a special group of men to climb the mountain and appear from behind the fortress. Morale would shatter and they'd surrender
The area behind the wall, and its stream, were not incidental. They *are* Helm's Deep. The defensive structure (wall and keep) is called the Hornburg. You noticed the tents. That area is where people sheltering in the fortress camped, and the stream was a critical water supply. The culvert was there to let the stream flow out. There were also caves back there, which is where supplies were stored. With these supplies and the stream protected by the cave, a large population could shelter behind the wall for a long time to withstand a seige. (In the book, the wall is across the mouth of the valley, to maximize the area inside.)
To be fair Helms deep was rarely used, Minas Tirith you could argue that maybe, but being so close to Mordor and getting orc raiding parties too frequently would essentially force Gondorians to all seek shelter behind its walls.
Yup, it's not called "the Battle of the Pelennor Fields" for nothing. The battlefield was literally... lots of fields. 😂 They even refer to that wall (Rammas Echor) in the films, even though it's not there! 1. Denethor tells Faramir that "we shouldn't abandon our outer defences so lightly". This line is taken from the books when Denethor speaks of the wall surrounding the Pelennor. He didn't want his son to go on a suicide mission, who would have guessed? 2. Theoden instructs his captains when they're approaching the Pelennor. He tells one of them to take their company "to the right after passing the wall". I hadn't read the books before seeing the movies and this really confused me even when I saw the movie for the first time. I thought Theoden was instructing the captain to essentially make a u-turn when they would reach the walls of Minas Tirith (the only wall there was in the film). The line made much more sense in the books as Theoden just told what to do after passing the wall that surrounded the Pelennor Fields!
@@joeltimonen8268 That's fair enough, maybe some budget constraints and wanting to focus on more important things drew their attention. LOTR still holds true as being one of the most realistic fantasies out there, and it's golden compared to last seasons of GOT and Rings of power lol. Even the hobbit had quite a few flaws.
You are aware that it was Gondor before Rohan who used this fort, right? Rohan merely moved in. Now Edoras is true to the Rohan Saxon origins but if you’re going to use the logic that it isn’t Saxon enough, well that’s true because Rohan didn’t construct it. Lost me 1:30 into this waste of time.
LOL, this is oddly accurate. I replayed Battle of Middle Earth 1 recently, both as the rohan and as the uruks. All of these flaws came up in the helms deep mission, which is designed like in the movies. As a defender: - I completely ignored the outer wall, and let uruks just take it. There is literally no point in defending it. Instead I concentrated archers at the keep, so they can shoot at the opening where the keep connects to the outer wall. - I just opened the front door when the battering ram arrived. There is no point in trying to defend the gate. Just open it, and deal with the invading army trying to climb the staircase to the inner keep, by shooting it from both sides. As an attacker: - I completely ignored the outer wall. There's no point in attacking it, since the keep is directly exposed. - Shoot the gate down with a siege engine, no need for rams. The defenders have no way to contest you except by opening the gate, and running down the narrow bridge which's opening is entirely surrounded by your army in a concave. - Once you take down the gate, take outer wall of the keep. Now you can conveniently access the inner keep through that bridge connecting the two walls, completely bypassing the staircase of death. -Now you only have to defend the keep, from enemy forces at the "outer" wall that you actually completely bypassed. To do that, use the strategy described in the "defender" section. Helms deep is not a fortress, it's a bait to lure the enemy into attacking it, and play uno reverse card and attack the enemy from behind with a second army, trapping them inside the valley. Which is exactly what they do in the movie. You don't need to defend the fortress - you just have to make sure your enemy can't defend it either.
This is a nice take on the fortress of helms deep. I think though it’s only purpose is a fall back location to stop the orcs wiping out the Rohan people
is the point of the wall next to the hornburg to protect the water source? if their whole strat is to outlast any seige protecting their fresh water source is kinda of a big deal
The main point of the wall would be to enclose enough space that you could camp a very small army, including horses, and you could launch raids to cut an enemy's supply line between the vicinity of Edoras and Isengard. The secondary point is provide a good field of fire against besiegers at/near the gate. The OP is correct that the placement of this wall is dubious, and it does neither job very well.
Dang, pretty good video! I guess love is blind because as much of a castle enthusiast as I am, I never really critiqued Helm's Deep. Yet when I watch other movies I annoy my family with over analysing battles and fortress layouts.
This is the first video of you I've seen. I am not even into LOTR, but I am into the medieval era a lot. Halfway through when you pointet out the crenelation problem I just had to sub. Well done.
Actually it seems like the horn has some kind of effect on the uruks as the book details them covering their ears at the sound of the horn, tho I'm sure they could have still built arrow slits along the staircase and at the top of the tower Also I guess you could argue why they didn't use the horn more during the battle
@@ParryThis I always felt the horn was more meant as a warning. Possibly for allies further into the valley. Especially since Tolkien's original sketches make the valley a lot deeper, and put the fortress farther to the front.
in the movie, they call it a refuge, not a fortress for defending larger territory. also, i believe gandalf even says in the movie "he is leading them into a trap, there is no way out of that ravine".
Bingo. The point of the fortress is to raise the strategic cost of destroying the people. It also requires the attacker to split their forces if they wish to raid deeper into Rohan, since they need to leave and maintain a blocking force at Helm's Deep. Theoden doesn't internalize that Saruman is willing to pay that strategic cost until the very end of the battle where he starts talking about "reckless hate". Everything Saruman has done is so far outside the strategy an invader or raider would do because he doesn't care about territory or wealth, just slaughtering Rohan.
Taking in what you've said (at the 6 min mark), it would seem that the Fortress's best atributes is that its curtain wall provides a platform to turn the valley into a killing field for any archers who might conveniently turn up to defend the fort. The archers fire and fire, and the fort can feed the wall with reinforcements and mutually defensive fire.
From my casual reading of the books back in the 90s, I'm pretty sure that Helm's Deep was an old, decrepit Gondor Fortress that lost its strategic value and was gifted to Rohan. They had only used it in emergencies to hide the population in times of desperation or attack. It was used little and never had a permanent garrison but rather was a refuge of last resort. It also could've served more as a waystation to have space for supplies for a traveling army and made more for access of convenience than surviving a full on assault as the logic would be that the Rohirrim would be fast, mobile, and harassing enemy units in the many open fields of Rohan where the men of the Riddemark dominate the plains as their horses are most advantageous, but if their cavalry is defeated, they have a retreat / rally point to fall back to. I always thought of it as the basement in 'Night of the Living Dead': It wasn't meant for that purpose, but it's the only option you have left. Though, yes, a drawbridge would've helped a lot.
4:26 Offa's Dyke was built by the Saxon invaders when fighting the Welsh. The Dyke was made "from sea to sea" to lock the Welsh inside modern day Wales and keep them from attacking.
Yeah, i understand the reason the Uruks attacked. I just mean, as a serious design flaw, against other opponents. It would just be too easy to place the fortress, as designed in the movie, under an effective siege.
@@ParryThis as said in most cases in the lore it was put under siege why the numenorians built it there I can’t answer but it seems to do it’s job in the lore
@@Cody-5501 It's there for two reasons: To combined with Isengard watch the Gap of Rohan, and to protect the Glittering Caves which were used as the Keep's store of provisions and during the battle to protect the noncombatants. These were also built thousands of years earlier when the political situation was different.
Wow you really showed how the orcs and uruks almost defeated the men of Rohan in a amazing way. Also opened my eyes on how to make a good fortress that outlasts a siege and enemy attack. Although it is also described differently in the books and it would be cool if you do a version based on what tolkein wrote if you haven’t already
First of, great analysis, I agree with basically all points about the short-comings of this castle. Great work, it provided some more info on why I felt such strong distaste for it. I must say, that this very battle took me out of The Lord Of The Rings. It made me critique it more so than the films themselves, making me enjoy it altogether less, although cinematically it's a great piece of work. All 3 films have fantastic picture. However, this very fortress is designed in one of the worst, if not the worst ways possible and has countless amount of mistakes, many of which are pointed out in this video. Great job on that again. Another thing that took me out of it, was almost all of the tactics that the defenders used in order to 'defend' themselves. For example, putting more spearmen at the towers and walls, than at the base of walls, the double doors and so on. In fact, it's the other way around. More archers are BEHIND walls and the double doors, than on walls and towers, where they should be. The spearmen rush in to aid at the breach too late, the king goes to the front-line and the attackers break through. Then the defenders don't tip over the fire pits and utilise fire to burn the Uruks (the fire pits lit on the walls). The king has horses at the hall and then charges through the enemy. Gandalf also does the same thing, but charges down a hill so steep that everyone could tip over. That gives him and his company no advantage, especially since Uruks have pikemen at the ready. I could go on and on and on. From the way people wear armour, to equipment, to the fact that NO notable advancements have been made in THOUSANDS of years (armour is the same, weapons are the same, castles, etc.). And sure, the Orcs have made MANY mistakes during this battle as well, but they're naturally dumb. And has anyone noticed the extras in the background? Half of them do NOTHING, they just all stand around to fill in the frame. I get it, it's a FANTASY world, but I just can't get over this. It is why I have my own issues with Star Wars battles as well. I like big battles that fantasy brings, but... little realism? Can't have?
Yeah, as far as most of the tactical blunders go, i can usually explain it by examining Jackson's work as a whole, and he is a big picture guy, not a historically accurate detail guy. He does a great job of drawing focus where he wants it, and the background is never meant to be examined. I think it usually works, but sometimes you notice the mistakes.
@@ParryThis Right, and that's fine, it's his own vision. Perhaps that is what got me so upset, because I do tend to be drawn to details in general. I took theses 3 films too seriously, that was my problem. And instead of laughing about it being ridiculous in some ways, I kept being mad about what the characters were doing and so on. He has a way with cameras though, absolutely.
Well as for the charge into pikes... That would be a problem but the whole point of it is that Gandalf timed it so that the sun would rise behind and blind the orca for a second so they'd recoil and lift their spears out of a braced position. Giving the cavalry the ability to just drive into them.
@@drd444 Try riding your horse in a gallop straight into a brick wall. Worse yet, a steel wall. A mass of Uruks, more than 5 ranks deep, all in plate armor, would collectively shatter the bones of the horses and catapult the riders over as they suddenly stop from the impact. Cavalry are not battering rams.
In all fairness, the book does mention that Helms Deep is very old, outdated and barely brought back into service by the time Saruman attacked. But on another matter. The fortresses location within the mountain makes a bit off sense if you consider the big horn. The gorge functions as an amplifier for the horns sound, turning it into a countrywide signal tower. Rohan is a rather flat land and the amplified sound should be able to cross miles upon miles.
Lmao. This was hysterical. All the stuff I noticed as well. Luckily, the movie was good enough to overcome these issues for those of us that noticed them.
Interesting video! A few counterpoints that I don't see mentioned in some of the top comments: Not every historical fortress used all the best technology or were designed according to best practices. Also, an interesting note on the strength of the outer gate: when the prop builders were told that Peter Jackson was actually going to take a battering ram to it, they were like, "Oh, shoot--we better make this a little stronger than a typical prop." The result was that the stuntmen were unable to batter down the gates, and they had to deliberately weaken it for the effect we see in the movie. That comes from one of the commentary dvds. Also, I realize you're criticizing the movie and not the book per se, but there was a rampart and trench across the entrance to the valley, but had a breach in it and they were insufficient to man it's length. Also, though this is not the king's personal castle, it is the castle and residence of one of his vassals (Erkenbrand).
Interesting thoughts on the design of the fortress. Still, on the argument regarding the lack of an actual gate for accessing the courtyard of the inner wall, I believe that there could be a plausible conscious decision supporting it. Buildings have history and change like living organisms. When the fortress was initially built there might be an actual wooden gate protecting the second level, but since this is a very old structure in the mythology of middle earth, the gate could have been destroyed in a previous battle. The surrounding and upper structures have signs of destruction and heavy wear as well (for example the balcony right above it). I believe this could be a convenient artistic solution provided by the designers, in order to solve a probable narrational problem of the film, which would be to have 3 consecutive wooden gate infiltration scenes in the same battle.
One piece of criticism I believe is missing. There are frickin stair coming from the deeping walls up to the hornburg. Which means that you don’t have to storm the hornburg, you need only to storm the deeping walls and then you walk into the keep without any obstacles. That infuriated me because not only these walls are not helping, they are the flaw in the construction that defeats the purpose. You can see it in the movie when Theoden calls Aragorn back to the keep.
I agree and that is a very critical part of the defense that is overlooked. I believe that it also gives a lot more room to work with. Whether it's room for livestock, all the citizens, hundreds of horses or thousands of soldiers. Not to mention it allows you to attack the enemy from two directions as well as give you the ability to have row upon row of archers. There is no way you could fit 2000 soldiers in the main keep of the Hornburg with enough room to draw a bow and be able to fight all at once.
The major question raised by Helm's Deep's position is what is it defending? Its place and design is slightly different in the books. Even so. Two things to keep in mind about the setting. 1. The timescale of the series is much greater than it appears. Maybe hundreds or thousands of years ago Helm's Deep's location made sense. 2. Humans, dwarves and elves seem to have a hard time keeping up their populations for whatever reason. This seems to cause fortress mentality to recure in Middle Earth civilizations. It might be worth it for a small population to wait in an impossibly strong location for orcish rule's inevitably fall into chaos.
I think the in lore reason for its location is just that the Hornburg, and Isenguard are on opposite sides of the gap of rohan. So hypothetically, a well positioned force in each would make incursions into Rohan difficult until both positions had been captured.
Helm's Deep was built by Gondor to guard the Gap of Rohan. And it was the seat of Erkenbrand Lord of the West-Mark, making it a castle. This is basic lore, my dude.
I was just thinking this but thought I was missing something remembering. Tolkien was very descript of his places so it would have been strange for them to get it so wrong.
i have been entranced by the helms deep battle since the first time i watched it as a 6 year old. legolas sliding down the stairs on the shield still gives me goosebumps 20 years later
The Hornburg must be understood as we understand ancient hillforts, not medieval castles. It's not a fortified home, nor a military fortress, but a place of refuge. The big empty space behind the wall is obviously for Rohan refugees and horses. They have used it so in the past in the texts. Of course the keep itself could have been done better but that's the thing with these structures, they evolve. This is not a castle building nation, they inherrited an ancient fortress and made it capable of housing a hoard of livestock but that's it.
In both the movie and the books they make it pretty clear that there is a cave system behind the fort itself and thaat retreat is possible through underground passages that let out in several directions. This keeps them from being in a supply issue in a seige and allows them to send for help that would lift any seige that was established with such a small source as suggested.
Hmm. I wonder if the bao tapestry was also poorly representing artistic depictions. I wonder how people will look back at our period with grossly wrong representations of it.
I agree with the analysis, but it is predicated on it being a Anglo-Saxon structure. It was built in stone by the men of Gondor. A lot of what is said is still relevant in that “why did Gondor make a fortress there?”
Aragorn is sitting on his horse and watching Helms Deep and is like "Why The hell was Helms Deep build this way? Who came up with this" xD Also Idk why they skipped making ditches. Ditches are so important to protect ur walls. If Helms Deep had ditches then the Suicide bombers had not destroyed the Wall. And in Minas Tirith had ditches infront of their walls then the freaking Seige Towers had no effect on them! They would just roll down to the ditch. And if the Great Gate of Minas Tirith had a draw bridge then they could just have pull the bridge up and the Grond wouldn't be able to destroy the gate! There a lot of mistakes that these kingdoms have made but we cant help it rn.
1) Orcs fill in ditches 2) Plot proceeds as before, so it wouldn't matter much except to slow the story down in exchange for appeasing a small minority of fortress nerds.
@@gavinjenkins899 "except to slow tge story down" How? Just add ditches in early battle scenes, and then show tgem as filled up in the later scenes. Boom, done - not even a single second of extra runtime.
ik I'm very late to this but with Minas Tirith Denathor gave the orders to abandon post due to his madness. It was very much a case of a good fortress under poor leadership
In the book, the Deeping Wall is a much longer curtain across the valley as you describe. The smaller wall (which is in the film) protects the entrances to the caves behind them, from which Eomer charges in the final phase of the battle (when Gandalf shows up with Erkenbrand, if I recall).
Rohan’s big brain strategy was to get the orcs to focus all their time and effort on a wall that protects nothing, whether they intended it or not the orcs wasted their resources on a part of the fortress that did not matter. Grima was the one who pointed out the weakness of the wall to Saruman, does this mean that he may have intentionally thrown off Saruman’s strategy by directing his attention to a red herring??
Just one thing I want to point out is in the beginning of the video you said helms deep wasn't well placed, it was built by the gondorians and was gifted to Rohan so rohan really didn't have a choice lol. They were gifted it and the lands they currently inhabit from gondor a long time ago. That's it, thanks for the good video.
"A horn that would require industrial sized blowers" *Gimli has entered the chat*
Yea gets me every time to think about Gimlis massive Lungs to get this tone out of it XD I one played a tuba and my breath lasted for 1 whole second XD
Yeah there's ghosts of the dead, witch kings on dragons but you can't have a horn that disregards the laws of physics!
@@RennieAsh your god damn right you are! Horns have to obey the law!
@@miracufelix Stop Lawbreaker!!!
@@RennieAshI don’t usually like this logic, as it can lead to a lot of stupid arguments, but dangit. As long as it’s plausible.
It should be noted, and probably has been, that a lot of these flaws are created by the way the movie chose to depict the fortress. Tolkien describes it as being much closer to the head of the valley with an outer perimiter at Helm's Dyke as well as the deeping wall being used to prevent an attacker moving to surround the fortress on three sides. It should also be noted that in the books the fortress is not undermanned, they even have enough forces to partially man the dyke.
So true the dike is missing in the movie
Not to speak of, there were no Elves ;)
Noooo... it is rubbish in the book and the film representation is very accurate. All the fortifications are not good.
@@justinmorgan2126 shut up kid. the movie is garbage. the book is the source material.
@@justinmorgan2126 you can say it is rubbish in the book, but the film representation isn't accurate.
And the original commenter presents SOME of the reasons it isn't, citing description in the book, while you just say "yeah it's accurate" without supporting that claim.
The first part of analysis I have a problem with. In pre-feudal societies (I guess this is what the authors were going for) it was quite common to have a fortress or a mound where the entire tribe could hide if raided, usually near where they lived. These were not permanantly manned, with rudimentary defenses - wooden walls and towers but not much else, almost always on a hill (I know this from Baltic history, where the feudalism came really late, and earlier social structures persisted). These could hold thousands of people for short periods of time. The point of these defences was to wait out the enemy, because the enemy almost always raided, and rarely attempted sieges, because of the constant lack of food to forage.
yes video is bad. Helms Deep is a Fluchtburg (refuge castle).
To prove the authors point, even in that scenario, helms deep is still a poor choice.
It had walls, many, many things that require maintenence including seige engines, food stores, many large walls, ect. There is NO WAY a place like that was a 'temporary stronghold'
Perhaps something like a cave might do for what you suggest but not Helms Deep. Helms deep is a poor stronghold.
Even if we account for the 'tunnels for the women and children' as a line of resupply, Im fairly sure itd require dwarves/elves to supply them or else; where they left to get to Helms Deep.
Also with Rohan being a CALVARY focused army, Helms Deep makes EVEN LESS sense as a stronghold since most of their combat prowess comes from mounted combat.
All in all, Helms Deep is actually a death sentence for the people of Rohan and hence why Gandalph had to come save them. "Theodin, your King stands alone."
As someone who has studied warfare and history the past 7 years; I can also draw direct connotations from LotR and IRL historical combat. Winged Hussars are pretty much Theodin. Tolkien wrote much of his Germanic history in his books and many combats are based on IRL events. Most involve WW1 and WW2 but there are a few notes of things before and after- they are just usually less epic fights. Part of what makes Tolkins combats so epic is that he bases on history and then twists it into his stories. I wish someone would write a history book based on Tolkiens writing style. Itd sell and teach many.
@@shupichii9647 you're not a historian you're just a history buff. Mongols can and did fortify their positions and fight defensive sieges all the time. The strategy is called shatter point, which of course you didn't know. You just let the enemy keep coming at you until they're broken enough to where it doesn't matter if the defense is lost. It did its job so that future attacks in the region are dramatically weakened. It's a carefully selected area and statement to the enemy of "you won this time but at what cost." So all the resources spent are worth it because it IS being sacrificed so the other defenders can counter attack, which is exactly what a cavalry focused army would want, the enemy to be stuck in one place while the rest of them can move around.
@@shupichii9647 The maintenance of the walls is moot. The Deeping Wall is solid rock. It's not made of rocks, it's solid rock with a smooth surface as it's possible the whole Hornburg was as well. Isengard which lay opposite was made of even more magical stuff, being the same dark stone that the lower walls of Minas Tirith were made of. It was made with Numenorian technology and it wasn't until much later that the fortress was given over to Rohan.
The layout of the inside suggests that that fortress was designed to rally from on horseback, hence the sloped causeway. The lack of drawbridge though is an oversight, it should have one and the point about the rocks falling down is a good one too unless the cliffs behind the fortress are somehow magically sealed from landslips. Saruman was able to whip up a storm to prevent the fellowship from crossing the mountains, you'd think he could do the same with Helm's Deep so maybe there was some ancient magic at play.
Gandalf had to save them because too few warriors were available to defend the fortress, it was what was available in Edoras at the time and the King's bewitchment likely meant much of the Rohirrim were scattered across the Kingdom looking after their own areas. In the movie at least. In the book the fortress was well defended by around 3000 men which is a very good size to fight off 10,000 from the safety of a fort. Gandalf arrives with Erkenbrand and 1000 Rohan infantry to save the day while huorns from Isengard form a second relief army. In the book Eomer goes to Helm's Deep and helps defend it beside Aragorn and Gimli.
@@lastsong7159 That was addressed early in the video. For that strategy to work you need the enemy to want to take the fortress, but the exact location that it's located is useless. It doesn't hold a passage, doesn't overlook a vast area and its ability to project power can be neutralized by fortifying the relatively narrow mouth of the valley. No sane commander would waste men, resources or time on taking such a fortress.
If I remember correctly Helm's Deep is what is called a "Fluchtburg" in my german mothertongue - I don't know whether there is an english equivalent or whether google translate rather came up with a blunt literal translation when it put out "escape castle" (edit: meanwhile I learned that the correct english translation is _"refuge castle"_ - which despite being pretty obvious didn't occur to me for some reason).
However - this type of fortress was neither intended to control an area nor as a permanent home for a lord, but as a temporary refuge in case of a superior enemy approaching. Civilians as well as military units could flee there and wait until their country's main force would have pushed out the enemy and the countryside being save again, or reliving them in case of a siege.
Such fortresses had been in use in reality:
For instance the slavic tribes who settled the east of modern germany which previously had been abandoned by the local germanic tribes during the migration period employed this concept in the early medival era (Eventually the east of Germany got occupied by german crusaders in the 13th century and german settlers followed on foot - but the slavic sorbs and wends managed to preserverve their distinct language, culture and identity to this day and are officially recognized as Germany's only autochtone minority, with for example bilingual public signs and schools in their home regions as well as their own media.)
They set up circular walls made of soil and wood, surrounded by a trench and with palisades on top all over their tribal territories to keep their non-combatants and lifestock who would have been extremly vulnerable in their scattered homes and small farms save during hostile raids while their warriors would fend off the enemy.
The remains of said "fleeing fortresses" are still visible to this day - mostly from above because the flora differs slightly where wall and trench once had been located, but sometimes there even are very eroded circular traces left of the wall/trench as such. One of these fortresses got reconstructed a few years ago on its original location in the german state of Brandenburg (the search term "Slawenburg Raddusch" will bring up images in case you are interested).
I might be wrong, but I think to remember that Helm's Deep served the same purpose - which would defeat some initial points of your criticism.
Helm's Deep's weird additional wall which supposedly would have little purpose in case of a "regular castle" could serve as a somewhat save enclosure for the lifestock (in case of Rohan mostly horses probably - and in this context the little creek suddenly makes sense) while the civilians and some accompanying military units would occupy the actual fortress.
I don't mean to claim that Helm's Deep is a perfect design - I just think you might have misunderstood its purpose and the way it's employed.
I imagine it as a left-over from a time when military campaigns weren't yet about total annihilation or defeat/permanent occupation but rather looting expeditions based on a "hit and run" approach - the enemy would rather plunder settlements and steal lifestock instead of trying to break the walls of a fortress filled with farmers and peasants for the most part.
It's not about being invincible but rather not being worth the effort - a good comparison might be a concerned home owner's _panic room:_
In case of an intruder the house's inhabitants can flee there and lock themselves in - it doesn't prevent the intruder from freely roaming the house and steal whatever valuables he likes best, but the inhabitants are save for the moment and can wait until help arrives or the culprit has left. The average home intruder wouldn't have the means to break such a panic room to begin with, but even if he had it wouldn't be worth the time and effort which could be put to better use by collecting loot and getting away before the authorities arrive.
At bottom line one could say that such refuge castles were nothing but inflated panic rooms, serving precisely the same purpose on a tribal scale.
I'm pretty fascinated by this idea and found that the concept is pretty unknown nowadays even within medival and/or fantasy enthusiast communities although it's interesting and actually a pretty obvious idea.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refuge_castle
@@MrCosinuus
Thanks for your addition! Coincidentally the very same reconstructed _refuge castle_ I was referring to in my initial comment gets shown in the article's introduction - the slavic castle Raddusch in Lusatia, a region which is named after the western slavic tribe of the lusatians to this day ("Lausitz" derived from "Lusitzi")!
Well, actually I should have figured out to look up the german term in wikipedia and change to the associated english article in order to learn it's english equivalent all by myself..
I can't remember whether I just had been too lazy - maybe I'm just stupid. 😅
Thanks again and greetings from Berlin!
@@kai_plays_khomus So spät noch wach? Husch ins Bettchen ;)
For context: Unfortunatly the comment I replied to isn't visible here appearently. Peter Peterson posted an english Wikipedia link about the *_refuge castle_* concept:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refuge_castle
Not quite. The men of Gondor didn't build Helm's Deep as a place of refuge. It was used in conjunction with Isengard as military posts to control the region near what was later known as the Gap of Rohan. They later _gave_ the keep to the people of Rohan who used it in several instances as a place of refuge for people in the western parts of Rohan. Note that people in the eastern parts of Rohan would use Dunharrow as a place of refuge.
A few pieces of criticism: helms deep was actually more strategically placed than you think. During the time period both helms deep and Isengard were owned by Gondor, they were sister forts protecting the gap of Rohan, and Gondor’s western border. Of course, in Lotr saruman owns Isengard and is opposed to Rohan, so dunlendings could just cross through from Isengard… which they did.
Also, the deeping wall protected the glittering caves, and as you had mentioned 2 minutes ago, this was where the population of Rohan would retreat to in case of an invasion. The purpose of helms deep, by the time of lotr was to house the population of Rohan if any major large scale invasion were to happen.
The gate: yes, it should have a drawbridge and moat, I completely agree. But either this was an extended edition scene or you just forgot, the rohirrim did bar the gate with timber.
Merlons: I’m 90% sure helms deep was built by the dwarves, but I may be wrong. However, if I’m correct, that means the merlons were fine at the time of the construction, as gimli complains about being unable to see the Uruk hai. Of course, the rohirrim absolutely should have made them taller.
Gate part two electric boogaloo: yeah okay helms deep deserved that roasting. Not having the second gate was a mistake.
The horn: don’t insult helm hammerhand’s horn. That’s a very important part of rohirric history that I’m too lazy to go into, this comment is already long enough. I’d recommend looking helm hanmerhand up though.
Helm's Deep was originally constructed by the men of Gondor, long before the people who would eventually be known as the Rohirrim lived in that area, Dwarves never inhabited that area until Gimli would lead a group there to colonize the glittering caves after the war of the ring.
As for the situation with Isengard, yes, i know that the idea was that a fortress on each opposing end of the Gap would provide a defense against incursion, my only real issue with that logic is the vast amount of land between the two, and the fact that orcs don't typically come to siege and conquer, but to raid, so this type of defense would not work as well against them.
As for barring the gate, yes, they nail some fresh boards on, and brace it with timbers once the Uruks have already smashed through with their ram, but that is all too little too late. If that was your one and only gate and you needed to rely on it to keep the hoards out, you would build in semi permanent supports and reinforce it to imitate a wall.
I also get the idea of the horn of Helm Hammerhand, and think its bad ass. I'm just saying, thats a lot of resources to devote to something that serves little to no strategic advantage when leaving the rest of the fortress very poorly defended.
About the wall, in the books, it says that the parapets were high enough so that only tall men could see over them.
Also, in the books, there is a second wall, like you theorized at 5:00.
@@ParryThis in books have second wall
@@ParryThis the idea was to counter hostile men of Miniriath and Edenwaith (Dunlandings) also if they had a cavalry force they could easily intercept the land in the middle of the two (in Tolkien’s world cavalry forces can go long distances as seen in Simirillion)
Rohan is cavalry force.They keep their horses behind Deeping Walls not inside the Keep. Also it protects the caves which is directly behind it.
👍 🏇🏇🏇
The caves were accessed through the main hall.
@@Kalenz1234 I think it wasn't but I'm not sure.
@@Kalenz1234I mean in the book Aragorn and theoden were in the "castle" and gimli was defending those gaves at the same time. Sorry for bad English.
I thought the caves and other supplies were behind the wall, maybe not in the movies tho
Your first point is a little flawed, according to Tolkien lore, Gondor use to own the Rohan region including isengard but gave Rohan to the men coming from the north. Since Helms Deep is technically a Gondorian fortress, it makes sense that it is stone, also in the movie they did add timber to the doors to the Hornburg
I wasn't saying that it being made of stone was a flaw, i was simply pointing out that if it were an Anglo Saxon fort, it wouldn't look like this, architecturally speaking.
@@ParryThis I didn't say that you said this was a flaw, I'm saying it wouldnt really matter by design since the design was from another "nation" if you will. Think of it like a British 1700 army taking over an Ottoman Empire fortress for example, its just there already they would adapt to it but yeah the point I'm trying to make...
@@elvinarcher He didn't say that you said that he said it was a flaw ...LOL
@@daylinlott5723 which I literally just said, I didn't say that he said that was a flaw, you just made this super confusing now haha
@@elvinarcher I know ...it was just a crime of oppty on my part lol
Yeah, the Deeping Wall makes more sense in the books where the entrance to the Glittering Caves is actually behind _it_ rather than being accessed via the keep as it is in the movie. It'd actually interesting to see you react to the design of the Hornburg as sketched by Tolkien himself, as well as the version from the Tolkien atlas that I believe is based on that sketch. It's not perfect, but it has a few features that make more sense than the films. The Uruks never get through the gate, for one, except right at the end by blowing it up with another bomb.
Just looked it up, and you're right. The fortress is protected by two walls, it's a little bit away from the mountain walls and on top of a hill, the river actually goes right alongside most of the hill the fortress is on, and the deeping wall is clearly only meant to protect the entrance to the glittering caves, not the fortress. Still no drawbridge and still the weak point in the deeping wall from the river though. :P
@@Sanquinity Other things worth noting, I think; the inner wall of the fortress is a complete circle rather than a semi-circle buried into the cliff at both ends; the Deeping Wall is almost parallel to the causeway, and the rear gate is exactly (or almost so) opposite the main gate; the Burg, the tower that holds the Horn itself, is the keep of the fortress, surrounded by both walls, rather than being a narrow tower attached to the outer wall, and thus there's no main hall buried into the rock.
I also looked it up. That's actually a pretty sweet fortress. I understand why they did what they did for the movie, and it looks great, but Tolkien's Helms deep is clearly superior
@@DirtyDan77 It does still have some issues, but those could mostly be chalked up to the layout of the terrain they had to work with. The no draw bridge thing though, that was definitely an oversight from Tolkien. :P
The Deeping Wall in the movie would make sense if it was used to hold back water. lots of water. ad a nice stockpile of something like oil and this setup would be near perfect to annihilate a besieging army. the weaknesses then would serve as the honey on the trap...
"at least they had a staircase suitable for shield surfing" that on got me :D
It is the single best defensive fortification in the Jackson designed Hornburg.
You miss a very important point - a lot of the features you say were missing such as drawbridges and murder holes, portcullis etc were only introduced as a direct result of lessons learnt after medieval kings read the Lord of the Rings
I guess the they should have matched the movies as well. F**K it, they probably watched rings of power too.
Yes Chris Pant On. Yesss.
I actually had to read this twice to make sure I read it right the first time. Well played.
In the book it is said that helms deep was built by the Numenorians, Not Rohan, the Rohirrim simply took control of it when the land was given to them. also considering its position, and Isengard, and you take into account that this was the northern borders of Gondor they were perfectly strategically placed. Isengard would guard the northern section of Rohan while helms deep would guard the southern like two Guard towers on either side of the gap of Rohan protecting Gondors northern borders.
Gondor should have been able to build gatehouses! Minas Tirith lacks one too.
@@mindstalk True, but originally it was never meant to be an actual city, it was only meant to be a secret place where the kings would be buried. When they eventually converted it into the new capital city, they already had the great wall around it, and in front of that the old capital city of Osgiliath. so I suppose it was almost impossible that any enemy would get that close to it. It was mostly just a show of defence, although in truth it never actually said there was no Gatehouse. At least in the books. It’s simply said the Great doors were blasted open. It never said there wasn’t a portcullis that could not be brought down.
Yeah this video is Bush league
Helm Hammerhand King of Rohan built it. That's why it's called Helms Deep.
@@ThatSockmonkey Nope. It was originally built by Numenorians and they called it Algarond (Glittering Caves) Helm Hammerhand took refuge there and renamed it Helms Deep in his honor.
In defense of the Deeping Wall. It supports the Glittering Caves, where the civilians find refuge. Its essentially protecting the civilian population while the Keep houses and is a basis of operation for the military as they defend the civilians. Including the ability to launch cavalry charges over the field behind the wall if it was ever breached.
But yeah, the rest of this makes sense haha
On a historic (middle earth history) note, people have thought that it started as little more then a scouting outpost for Nonminor (before Gondor) that was turned into a fortress by Rohan. And Rohan is a poor nation that was given the area for their service by Gondor. A kingdom of horse lords, not stone masons. It would make some sense they wouldn't have the money, or expertise to upgrade it much beyond provisions, repairs, and maybe that wall to protect the Glittering Caves.
When Gimli comes back to rule over the glittering caves with a colony of dwarves, i'm 100% sure they upgraded its defenses ha
Thats true in the book. But in the Peter Jackson movie the glittering caves are accessed via the Keep. Hell they dont even keep the horses behind the Deeping Wall.
5:00, you forget how masterfully Tolkien described Helm's Deep. There was the outer wall called Helm's Dike, which was the first line of defense. There was a battle there, and then the forces of Rohan retreated into Helm's Deep after the outer defenses were overrun.
An entertaining analysis, I may say. It was rather enjoyable and definitely not boring. I am going to watch all of your videos in time.
Just wanted to mention something about the first point on the location of Helm's Deep. In ancient years where it belonged to Gondor along with Isengard, it was supposed to guard the Gap of Rohan from western invaders. It was an important "must-have" for Saruman in order to freely deploy Dunledings and other Men from the western borders of Rohan in Rohan. If he can't control both of these fortresses (Isengard & Helm's Deep), he can't effectively control the Gap.
Yeah, that makes sense, looking at the map. Having control of both fortresses, effectively gives you a powerful redundancy if one is threatened, so it would work effectively as a gate for the gap.
@@ParryThis also in the books there are more fortifications
You forgot to add that the deeping wall has staircase on it to the keep and appears to have one behind it leading to the crucial horn tower. Which might have doors, but the hefty sheep price on timber might have been too much for.
Those are two solid points that i did in fact forget to mention.
Kermit the Frog teaches castles.
Lmao 🤣
Now it sounds 👌
Parry this, you're not gonna let him call you Kermit like that are you?
Thanks, now I can’t unhear it
Can you explain the rainbow connection?
Helm's Deep is an old fortress of Gondor, perhaps even of Numenor. It was positioned, along with Isengard, to control the Gap of Rohan.
It was occupied and adapted by Rohan.
In reguards to the “horn tower”, as described in the book, it was actually a weapon that would produced a ultra low frequency that would stun and confuse the enemy. This kind of weapon was actually utilized in real life, which is where Tolkien got the idea from.
Subsonic frequencies around 9 Hz have been shown to induce fear and panic in people and animals. Governments have used these sonic weapons against protestors, for example in Australia.
I think the Deeping Wall does serve a purpose, as it provides much more wall space for additional archers to shoot at the attackers. Without the Deeping Wall, yes the full force could have been concentrated in the keep, but there wouldn't have anyplace for the extra archers to stand where they could actually shoot the enemy until casualties opened up some wall space. Also, the Deeping Wall provides a source of flanking fire against attackers moving up the causeway to the main gate. The aerial view at 0:39 shows the geometry of this pretty well, and we do see Aragorn directing some of the elven archers to do exactly that during the film battle (the only reason it wasn't more effective was because most of the elves on the wall were occupied fighting hand-to-hand by that point).
Also, while I agree with pretty much everything you said about the keep itself (my kingdom for a freaking drawbridge, seriously!), I think the merlon issue was simply a cinematography thing. The filmmakers didn't want their row of heroic, outnumbered, haggard defenders (and Peter Jackson) to be obstructed by a bunch of head-high obstacles. The book does state that the Deeping Wall at least was "sheltered by a parapet over which only a tall man could look", with "clefts in the stone through which men could shoot". I think a lot of the issues you mentioned with the film's version of the keep have more to do with it simply being compacted into a smaller space than that type of fortification would normally need in order for the whole thing to fit into camera shots better.
The wall blocking the whole walley was actually in the books...
Yeah, Helm's Dike. Its not a proper fortified structure, but a long earthen wall that stretched across the deeping comb about a quarter mile from the hornburg. It reminds me of Offa's dike from Anglo Saxon England.
@@ParryThis I think what he means is the wall starting at the hornburg.
In the book we are told that the entrences to the glittering caves lay in the valley (which where indeed defendeble by arowslitts and so on), where the horses of the army where kept and there were hidden path that led out of the valley for the people to escap.
Like you recognice the existenc of Helms Dike, which is only in the books, but then ignore the the existenc of the valley behind Helms Wall just to be able to call the wall a wast of resources.
**10 seconds into the video**
“Ok. You’ve convinced me. I’ll watch LOTR the two towers”
Helms Deep is where you send the non combatants in a time of crisis. The fighting men of Rohan are cavalry. They need to stay mobile and not be pinned to a slow moving column of civilians. Easiest solution to issue is put the non combatants inside a super strong fortress and defend it with just enough men to hold the walls. While that is happening your army can roam around and get things done.
The Hornburg is a castle, at least in the books- the Helmingas are permanent residents who occupy and maintain the fortress, and their lord is Erkenbrand, who often resides at the Hornburg. So technically yes, it is a castle, it has full-time inhabitants and is a seat of power for a lord.
Yeah, it's a dual use fortress. It's a blocking fortress for the valley and caves (wall) and a fortified seat of power (hornburg/castle). It makes a lot of sense in the book.
The simple reason for this is, that in Book it was differently schemed. In fact I loosely remember to have all things you mentioned was here. I think there was some sort of wall or barricade around valley. I believe there was reasoning for that outer wall to be protecting their water source as well as those caves, that in book were actually behind outer wall. Also it was additionally build recently I think. And issues with inner wall are not to be seen or explored, since they didn´t breach the gate. Although problems with gate are still there in some forms I guess.
Also some people mentioned that it was build by Numenorians. I admit it is some time since I red it but I am not really sure if it is case. I remembered backstory of fortress , that one of their kings have survived there and so they build fortress there.
The tragic part is I'm pretty sure Tolkien knew all this and described a much more realistic (and functional) fortress, both for Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith. The Hornburg is built on a "spur of rock", ie.e away from the valley cliff walls, and there are dikes and walls in relatively sensible positions. In fact it's clear he had a much better understanding of medieval buildings and siegeworks than the filmmakers did. He also mentioned farmland, stores of food and water and extended defences in several different settings, none of which you actually see on film unless they're being used for a joke about hobbits' appetites.
And the river is used as a moat around the Hornburg, and the wall is located at the spot where the long valley suddenly narrows:)
What do you mean "the Uruk-hai have no reason to attack."? They were literally verbatim "made to destroy the world of men."
"They do not come to destroy Rohan's crops or villages, they come to destroy its people"
As opposed to besieging the fortress
They could've starved them out, I guess was the point being made.
Yeah, but they could easily have achieved that by laying a siege and just waiting while taking over the land.
the fact food would be wasted on women/children, a siege would have lasted less than a month. Yes, i know, Destroy the Humans, but if you only have a army of 10K, and you are planning on going to war with gondor/Mordor, you beter save as many troops as you can
This hits a lot of the same points I made in my video of the Two Towers film. Although, it should be noted that Tolkien placed the caves in the valley and not the fortress itself. The back staircase acted as an escape route to the caves where all their women, children, and provisions remained. The deeping wall protecting the caves between fortress and mountain. That's why in the book, it was so important for Saruman to seige the deeping wall. If Rohan loses the wall, they lose EVERYTHING.
Also, there's a staircase from Deeping wall to the first wall. So if the orcs do take the wall, they'd have another access, but through a choke point.
Great point about building another wall between the front, using the river as a natural moat. props on that observation!
Also, I think it should be noted that main gates door was built so securely during production that the bodybuilders playing orcs, couldn't break it down, so it needed to be physically weakened for filming. Just thought that was pretty cool trivia.
and I do agree Theoden over emphasized his forces to the wall, instead of his fortress. Aragorn also didn't help matters much by arbitrary sending all the elves to slaughter instead of leading a fighting retreat. The battle has tons of issues, but it's still my all time favorite.
Something you missed about the causeway: it bends left. This means that the attacker’s left sides are facing the enemy and, since most attackers are right handed, their shields will be in their left hands, meaning their most protected side is the side facing the enemy
Just a little bit of remind that, Hornburg was not built by Rohan, but Gordor. So It's not meant to protect Rohan nor Edoras of course, but combine it with Isengard these two are Gondor's fortresses to guard the passage we known in later 3rd age as gap of Rohan. And somehow though, If Isengard main army want to attack Rohan, they have to go through the fords of Isen, the only crossing point for a big army to cross River Isen, in which also located near Helm's Deep.
The point of the Deeping Wall is to have a protected open space for stock animals and horses. The fortress was originally paired with Isengard to guard each side of the Gap of Rohan. It's usual purpose was a guard post for the troops guarding the pass so the open space behind the wall could even have been used for small herds of animals. There was another rougher wall across the valley mouth called Helm's Dike which was a ditch and wooden pallisade which likely had its own small detachment to patrol it.
I live in Scotland and grew up with a castle in my back garden. The castle is in the middle of a valley to control the valley. Every other castle in the area (there's about 100) is on the valley floor. None of them are halfway up a mountain apart from 1. The nearby mountain has an iron age fort at the top but anything following that was built at the valley floor. Castles are built in prominent locations to control Valleys. Helms deep would have controlled the valley across from it.
This would be a great video series! I'm kinda surprised you haven't done more of these fortress analysis videos.
I think the strategic complaint about Helm's Gate's position is unsupportable from a book perspective. Helm's Gate is actually quite well-placed if you consider the road, Rohan's strategic position, and the Rohirric force structure. Obviously the Rohirrim didn't build it, but in the late third age, this was a fortress it made a lot of sense for them to maintain whatever the expense.
Rohan had only *one* major road (its portion of the old North-South road which connected Arnor to Gondor), running through the Gap and the Fords of Isen all the way to Anórien. It was roughly parallel to the Ered Nimrais. Edoras was centrally located where this road crosses the Snowbourn river. Rohan was protected from the south by the mountains, from the east by a centuries-old stable alliance with Gondor, and from the north by Fangorn.
Now, an overgrown foraging party might carry off some small valuables (e.g. Uglúk's raid) or burn some crofts but neither of these could deal lasting damage. As the Danes learned in their repeated chevauchées into Wessex, thatch burns easily, but is just as easily rebuilt. Furthermore, the all-cavalry balance of Rohan's standing forces makes such ventures very risky because they can respond quickly with superior force (see, again, the fate of Uglúk's company). And raiding parties could not actually challenge the kingdom's stability (Éomer mentions Mordor has conducted horse-raids into the Wold for many years without meaningful strategic impact). Such forces just lack the numbers and siege machinery necessary to take any of Rohan's fortifications. To sustain those necessary numbers and transport those siege engines you need roads.
To invade from the northeast (where those horse-raids come from), Mordor would have to march around the marshes and the Emyn Muil, through the Brown Lands, and then cross the Anduin between Lothlórien and Sarn Gebir. That's the next best thing to impossible. Any force put across the river would have to manage over two hundred miles of supply line (without any roads to carry wagons), poor local forage (the Brown Lands were empty and the Wold was sparsely populated), and a big geographic obstacle (the Anduin). Add to that that any such deployment would take be hideously vulnerable (cut it off from the river and it starves and it is beyond reinforcement from Mordor if Gondor sends aid to crush it in isolation) and leave Mordor itself vulnerable (wow, those orcs would take a long time to return home, sounds like the perfect window for a counterattack into Ithilien). As you can see, this operation would buy the Witch-King the worst of both worlds: he has to carve off a significant force and then place it where it Rohan and Gondor have maximal opportunity to coordinate against it (or, failing that, to attack him while it is away). Travel times (communication and reinforcement) between Gondor and Rohan would be likely less than one-quarter that between a hypothetical Mordor expeditionary force and Barad-dûr or Minas Morgul. There are lots of reasons Mordor doesn't try this.
This leaves only one practical invasion route whereby an army sufficient to threaten the kingdom could invade Rohan. From the west, through the Gap, along the road. And Helm's Gate is perfectly situated interdict such an invasion. It sits just a few miles of easy riding south of that road. Any attempt to push an army down the road without first investing Helm's Gate is doomed to failure: the Rohirrim can ride out and harass you at their leisure, picking any time and place they please for action. Because of this, Helm's Gate simply cannot be bypassed. Note that we actually have one of Tolkien's sketches of the Hornburg (tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:J.R.R._Tolkien_-_Helm%27s_Deep_and_the_Hornburg.jpg) and it is considerably more practical. You can't just plunk a token force at the mouth of the Deep to seal it in, investing this fortress would be serious work. The dike and the stream essentially require you to deploy twice the manpower you would need or take grievous losses in an initial assault (Saruman chooses the latter). Moreover, because you can expect both significant cavalry in front of you (from the garrison) and also behind you (from the muster of the Rohirrim to repel your invasion), you need both circumvallation and contravallation, which means more manpower. In general, earth works on such scale require either time or labor (at any given time a third of the army will be digging, guarding, or sleeping).
So no matter how an invader addresses the fort, it will achieve its strategic function: buying time. Either it stops the entire enemy force dead, or that force has to detach significant strength to prevent a sortie into its rear. Rohan's standing cavalry forces are good, but they are dwarfed by the manpower which can be mobilized in even a few weeks (during the War of the Ring, Théoden was able to raise a thousand horsemen just from the area surrounding Edoras in a single afternoon-the muster of Rohan began on March 2, 3019 and Théoden's rode to Gondor on March 10 with six thousand spears and left four thousand behind, plus an unknown number of infantry. An invading army's best chance for a low-cost victory over Rohan is to attack the fortified administrative center in Edoras and subjugate it before that mobilization can take place. Helm's Gate makes such a maneuver impossible without significantly overwhelming force from the west (note Aldburg does the same from the east).
The tactical analysis of the film depiction of the fortress' construction is good though. Peter Jackson always had the habit of messing around with no good reason.
at 6:21 you are going on about how there is nothing behind the deeping wall, while showing on screen a large tent encampment likely full of civilians behind the deeping wall.
I agree with most of the points, but not with everything.
1) Strategic location - it could be in better possition, but it is not true it serves no purpose. If you have some forces there, they are protected so you cannot defeat them, but you have to keep much larger force sieging the fortress so you can occupy the territory. For example if you have some units there, but main forces are in Edoras, you have to either keep large portion of the army there and keep going on Edoras or go with everything you got, but you have enemy forces in your rear waiting for vulnurable time to attack.
2) Agree, that there could be more structures behind the wall, but it does not serve no purpose. There are caves behind it and that is what it defends. In the books some of the army (with Gimli) retreated there and defended the caves, while the main army defended the keep. And that is also why Helms Deep is build here I suppose. To protect the mines.
But as I wrote above. I agree with most of what you said. I would give maybe 1 point out of 10 to defendability of the fortress. :D But I love Lord of the Rings anyways! :D
Me: "You fortress has serious design flaws."
Original Architect: "Those were simpler times."
6:00 it protects the water source.
At about 3:15, you say that there is no reason for the Uruk-hai to attack. You evidently have no idea of what an Uruk-hai is - they have one purpose, to kill men. That is their reason to attack.
It’s actually at 3:09
"Soromon's hordes will plunder and pillage as we've seen before. Crops can be resown. Villages, rebuilt. Within these walls, we will endure."
"They do not come to destroy Rohan's crops or villages, they come to destroy its people. Down to the last woman and child."
But yeah orcs should have 100% just started a rock slide
Purpose of helms deep was always just to be a refuge. Outlast an enemy that burned and destroyed everything and was forced to live off the land. The Uruk-hai were a massive force that had to assault. They knew they’d dwindle in force and starve if they didn’t keep moving. They knew they could just let the Uruk-hai destroy everything and then move on. They’d used helms deep for it before
Purpose of the wall was just to protect those tents tbh. It was a refuge for a different style of warfare then uk medieval. Lot easier to hold a large group of refugees in a larger area. If they could hold that part, they should. They’d probably suffer and have more casualties if they lost the outer wall even if they managed to defend the inner wall better.
the long wall next to the keep protects a water source. very important during a prolonged seige. the stream you mentioned comes from the mountain. If the uruks had seiged helms deep instead and the wall wasn't there, the defenders would have to worry about getting attacked whenever they went outside to get water.
the weakness in the wall, being the grate that lets the stream flow, wasn't previously seen as a weakness because explosives were not really a thing up to that point. even grima did not know what saruman was presenting to him when he first showed it to him. its actually kind of nonsensical for grima to recognize it as a weakness since he doesn't know about explosives as a concept to begin with. that grate isn't removable or effectively a point you could exploit otherwise.
In any siege they besieger could simply climb up the mountains around the keep and rain down on it
@@darbyohara Helms Deep guards one of the few ways of actually getting up the mountains though. By the time you could scale the mountains from without I could have an army waiting for you at the top going up the much easier way protected by the fort. You would have to go miles and miles around to find another practical way up.
It would make sense that a small "town" existed behind the deeping wall to support the military installation with a blacksmith, food production, etc to make it self sufficient. The flaw, as you pointed out, is that this appears to be absent.
(I know i am about 3 years too late)
The door next to the main gate isnt even that unrealistic, many castles do have them right next to (or normally right behind the tower protecting) the main gate. One example would be Haut-Koenigsburg in France. But those doorways would protected by overlapping fires, would normally be very well hidden (see Haut-Koenigsbourg again) and have a connection to the main entrance, because who in the world thought that a sallying-door where you have to jump a canyon to actually reach the attacker would be a good idea?
It's a good idea indeed. I sally with archers and hit the battering ram team from the side, and they can't get across and engage the archers in melee.
Tactically, it's a dream to defend. Video games are just game's but they can absolutely give excellent examples of if a castle specifically is good or bad, and Mount and Blade Warband is a classic for this. Having defended and sieged Helms deep analogs with 200 players, I promise you, it's harder to siege than many historical castles using the same engine.
Walking up the ramp is literally a s*icide mission.
the only one properly protected by the crenelations is Gimli and then they *offer him a box to stand on*. i want to rip out my hair every time
Right, its a very ironic conversation.
5:00 better to put the gate back, so the walls have a crossfire.
I love lord of the rings. This was a very entertaining video.
Thank you very much. I also love lord of the rings.
The purpose of HD as built was, twinned with Orthanc, to guard the line of the Isen, Gondor's northwestern border: perfectly logical placement.
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It's also worth noting that even if it was 'defending nothing', one could not in a quasi-medieval world simply leave an unreduced fortress in one's rear and march on. Not attack on Edoras could proceed unless HD was taken or invested.
The deeping wall actually protects the glittering caves, which is where the bulk of the women and children were being kept. When it gets breached and the men of Rohan and Aragorn and Legolas have to retreat inside the keep, it’s Gimli who is cut off and forced to retreat back into the cave entrance to defend the women and children. Only reason why the wall failed is cuz Saruman invented explosives.
Even without explosive though, a pre built hole for sappers to get started from is a serious problem. The way walls like that are destroyed is by burrowing under and collapsing it on top.
@@obansrinathan either way, the extra time that would take gives the rohirrim a chance to relieve the siege
That was a very well thought out video, with tons of supporting facts and sound arguments. But thats nothing new. Excellent video.
Much appreciated!
The deeping wall allows mass archers to wipe out a chunk of the attacking forces and forces them to focus on two places rather than one. Its a tactical fall back as well.
It gives enemy forces more surface area to attack. Archers, on the other hand, don't need to be single-file. You can have row after row of them and all of them can still shoot at the same time. The movie even depicted this with many archers shooting from behind the wall. So having your archers spread out along a long wall is a disadvantage.
My biggest beef with the Battle of Helms Deep is that the tactics used by the Elves were just moronic in the movie. I understand that the bomb caught them with their pants down as it was an unknown technology. Fine.
1) They started firing bows way too late. They should have had markers placed outside the wall to make it super easy to tell when the orks were in range and immediately start firing. Don't wait around and let the orks march right up to the wall before you start.
2) After the bomb went off and orks started to come through the gap, the elves charged them almost immediately. That was really really dumb. They had high ground and distance advantage. They should have focused fired at the gap to plug the hole with dead orks while performing an orderly retreat to the keep once the wall is overrun. Or they could have provided the troops on the far side of the gap a chance to retreat down from the wall and abandon that side to reinforce the near side wall and continue to pepper the gap with arrows. There was no need to go on a suicide run right off the bat.
@@Sanquinity How do you fill the area behind the wall with archers volley firing if there is no wall to protect them?
@@chuckhoyle1211 1) The elves had a limited number of arrows to last the whole night, Theoden needed to buy as much time as possible to allow for the cavalry to arrive. He was maybe hoping the Uruks would not attack straight away and dig in for a siege. Firing arrows prematurely would instigate that, in fact the Uruks may have planned to be more cautious until that one dude fired an arrow accidentally and killed one.
2) That was smart actually, if they didnt move to plug that gap, the Uruks would literally just swarm in and surround the less numerous elves. Arrows wouldn't have stopped them, historically this is accurate, whenever a gap opens up in medieval sieges, you immediately send men to go plug it.
@@Sanquinity That's a really weak argument. As another comment mentioned, having archers attacking from multiple angles (as seen in a star fort) provides a distinct tactical advantage as it forces the enemy force to defend itself from several directions as opposed to one. And as Paul mentioned the deeping wall does function as a diversion from the fortress: if enemy forces are attacking the deeping wall that means they're not attacking the fortress, reducing the efficacy of any siege efforts directed at said fortress. And there's nothing wrong with providing enemy forces with "more surface area to attack" so long as that surface area is separated from the area that you are attempting to defend, which it is in this instance. There is no strategic value to be had from taking the deeping wall, as it is in an equally poor position to assault the fortress as anywhere else outside of it. So yeah, having archers spread out along a long wall is in this particular instance is actually highly advantageous strategically.
I do agree with most your criticism except for 2 points. 1. Location wise it does make. It is perfectly located to watch the Gap of Rohan and being one of the very few ways to pass from one side of the mountains to the other it makes sense to be there.
2. The wall stretches to cover the stream Therefore it's covering a source of water for anyone there.
What is the point of "watching" a place, when you're so easily surrounded and cut off? Anyway, it's all moot, seeing as the book doesn't describe it as it's depicted in the film.
The location is still weird even for that purpose. The obvious location to guard the Gap of Rohan would have been a water castle right inside the Fords of Isen. not a place to "watch" it from a safe distance. Gondor was guarding against attacks from the east, so the most likely function of Helm's Deep would have been as a staging ground for raids into the enemy's supply lines after the main force has already crossed the ford, or at least to force the enemy to leave a sieging force behind to protect his flanks, but that already assumes an organized conquest and not just raiding forces.
@@xergiok2322 when I say watch, I don't mean they just sit in the fort all day with binoculars. I mean that's the base for scouts who patrol the region, or a small army to raid any enemy forces attempting to cross through. With that perspective you don't need to worry about being surrounded because you already have scouts out and around. The fort will keep your small army safe while the scouts go get help.
@@asdf5303 when I say "watch" I don't mean that they are just sitting in the fort all day with binoculars. I mean it's the base for scouts who patrol the region and a small army to, as you suggested, raid any potential enemy forces attempting to cross. From that perspective it just needs to keep the army safe while the scouts who are out and about can go get help if a major force arrives.
I love and appreciate this video. I still love Tolkien, and Helm's Deep, but you seem to have a fair number of good points that I'll use when crafting fortifications from now on.
4:41 If they walled of the valley they would have increased the length of the wall they would have to defend and would leave themselves open to be flanked from the hills on the sides like the Rohirrim charged into the flank of the Uruk-hai army to win the battle
Wasn't there a general who instead of going around a mountain which would add days to their journey just decided to go RIGHT over the mountain losing some men but surprising the enemy with such an unexpected move that they end up winning the battle.
Yes , Hannibal the carthaginian crossed the alps and got a mayor victory
Alexander the Great, when he came across a mountain fortress he'd send a special group of men to climb the mountain and appear from behind the fortress. Morale would shatter and they'd surrender
The area behind the wall, and its stream, were not incidental. They *are* Helm's Deep. The defensive structure (wall and keep) is called the Hornburg. You noticed the tents. That area is where people sheltering in the fortress camped, and the stream was a critical water supply. The culvert was there to let the stream flow out. There were also caves back there, which is where supplies were stored. With these supplies and the stream protected by the cave, a large population could shelter behind the wall for a long time to withstand a seige.
(In the book, the wall is across the mouth of the valley, to maximize the area inside.)
I've found the lack of farms and barracks/ buildings surrounding cities and forts, in Jackson LOTR, very jarring.
To be fair Helms deep was rarely used, Minas Tirith you could argue that maybe, but being so close to Mordor and getting orc raiding parties too frequently would essentially force Gondorians to all seek shelter behind its walls.
@@geechyguy3441 There's supposed to be a big wall ring a few miles out of the city exactly for this. Nowhere to be seen in the film.
Yup, it's not called "the Battle of the Pelennor Fields" for nothing. The battlefield was literally... lots of fields. 😂
They even refer to that wall (Rammas Echor) in the films, even though it's not there!
1. Denethor tells Faramir that "we shouldn't abandon our outer defences so lightly". This line is taken from the books when Denethor speaks of the wall surrounding the Pelennor. He didn't want his son to go on a suicide mission, who would have guessed?
2. Theoden instructs his captains when they're approaching the Pelennor. He tells one of them to take their company "to the right after passing the wall". I hadn't read the books before seeing the movies and this really confused me even when I saw the movie for the first time. I thought Theoden was instructing the captain to essentially make a u-turn when they would reach the walls of Minas Tirith (the only wall there was in the film). The line made much more sense in the books as Theoden just told what to do after passing the wall that surrounded the Pelennor Fields!
@@joeltimonen8268 That's fair enough, maybe some budget constraints and wanting to focus on more important things drew their attention. LOTR still holds true as being one of the most realistic fantasies out there, and it's golden compared to last seasons of GOT and Rings of power lol. Even the hobbit had quite a few flaws.
@@joeltimonen8268 Plus the wall around the 1st level of Minas Tirith is meant to be jet black & flawless, like Orthanc.
You actually make some really good points. By the end of this you have me convinced this is the better battle.
You are aware that it was Gondor before Rohan who used this fort, right? Rohan merely moved in. Now Edoras is true to the Rohan Saxon origins but if you’re going to use the logic that it isn’t Saxon enough, well that’s true because Rohan didn’t construct it. Lost me 1:30 into this waste of time.
LOL, this is oddly accurate. I replayed Battle of Middle Earth 1 recently, both as the rohan and as the uruks. All of these flaws came up in the helms deep mission, which is designed like in the movies.
As a defender:
- I completely ignored the outer wall, and let uruks just take it. There is literally no point in defending it. Instead I concentrated archers at the keep, so they can shoot at the opening where the keep connects to the outer wall.
- I just opened the front door when the battering ram arrived. There is no point in trying to defend the gate. Just open it, and deal with the invading army trying to climb the staircase to the inner keep, by shooting it from both sides.
As an attacker:
- I completely ignored the outer wall. There's no point in attacking it, since the keep is directly exposed.
- Shoot the gate down with a siege engine, no need for rams. The defenders have no way to contest you except by opening the gate, and running down the narrow bridge which's opening is entirely surrounded by your army in a concave.
- Once you take down the gate, take outer wall of the keep. Now you can conveniently access the inner keep through that bridge connecting the two walls, completely bypassing the staircase of death.
-Now you only have to defend the keep, from enemy forces at the "outer" wall that you actually completely bypassed. To do that, use the strategy described in the "defender" section.
Helms deep is not a fortress, it's a bait to lure the enemy into attacking it, and play uno reverse card and attack the enemy from behind with a second army, trapping them inside the valley. Which is exactly what they do in the movie. You don't need to defend the fortress - you just have to make sure your enemy can't defend it either.
This is a nice take on the fortress of helms deep. I think though it’s only purpose is a fall back location to stop the orcs wiping out the Rohan people
I like it that Glenn Sturges' voice actor (from Superstore) now does LOTR stuff. I really like the content, keep the good stuff going!
"Those who are wrong" I laughed way harder than I should have
is the point of the wall next to the hornburg to protect the water source? if their whole strat is to outlast any seige protecting their fresh water source is kinda of a big deal
The main point of the wall would be to enclose enough space that you could camp a very small army, including horses, and you could launch raids to cut an enemy's supply line between the vicinity of Edoras and Isengard. The secondary point is provide a good field of fire against besiegers at/near the gate.
The OP is correct that the placement of this wall is dubious, and it does neither job very well.
Dang, pretty good video! I guess love is blind because as much of a castle enthusiast as I am, I never really critiqued Helm's Deep.
Yet when I watch other movies I annoy my family with over analysing battles and fortress layouts.
This is the first video of you I've seen. I am not even into LOTR, but I am into the medieval era a lot. Halfway through when you pointet out the crenelation problem I just had to sub. Well done.
Great video. You deserve way more views!
I appreciate that! Hopefully with time, more people will find my content.
Send him money so he can advertise
Actually it seems like the horn has some kind of effect on the uruks as the book details them covering their ears at the sound of the horn, tho I'm sure they could have still built arrow slits along the staircase and at the top of the tower
Also I guess you could argue why they didn't use the horn more during the battle
Yeah, if it had more than just a psychological effect, you would think they would be blowing it nonstop.
@@ParryThis I always felt the horn was more meant as a warning. Possibly for allies further into the valley. Especially since Tolkien's original sketches make the valley a lot deeper, and put the fortress farther to the front.
3:58 I know this castle. Niederburg Manderscheid. Very beautiful place to hike
It the books the crenellations are described as being so tall only a full grown man could see over it.
in the movie, they call it a refuge, not a fortress for defending larger territory. also, i believe gandalf even says in the movie "he is leading them into a trap, there is no way out of that ravine".
Bingo. The point of the fortress is to raise the strategic cost of destroying the people. It also requires the attacker to split their forces if they wish to raid deeper into Rohan, since they need to leave and maintain a blocking force at Helm's Deep.
Theoden doesn't internalize that Saruman is willing to pay that strategic cost until the very end of the battle where he starts talking about "reckless hate". Everything Saruman has done is so far outside the strategy an invader or raider would do because he doesn't care about territory or wealth, just slaughtering Rohan.
Taking in what you've said (at the 6 min mark), it would seem that the Fortress's best atributes is that its curtain wall provides a platform to turn the valley into a killing field for any archers who might conveniently turn up to defend the fort. The archers fire and fire, and the fort can feed the wall with reinforcements and mutually defensive fire.
From my casual reading of the books back in the 90s, I'm pretty sure that Helm's Deep was an old, decrepit Gondor Fortress that lost its strategic value and was gifted to Rohan. They had only used it in emergencies to hide the population in times of desperation or attack. It was used little and never had a permanent garrison but rather was a refuge of last resort. It also could've served more as a waystation to have space for supplies for a traveling army and made more for access of convenience than surviving a full on assault as the logic would be that the Rohirrim would be fast, mobile, and harassing enemy units in the many open fields of Rohan where the men of the Riddemark dominate the plains as their horses are most advantageous, but if their cavalry is defeated, they have a retreat / rally point to fall back to. I always thought of it as the basement in 'Night of the Living Dead': It wasn't meant for that purpose, but it's the only option you have left. Though, yes, a drawbridge would've helped a lot.
100% agree with everything you say. What a pleasure to watch a video by someone who understands defensive architecture. Subscribed!
I came into this expecting to start swinging, because I love that battle. But every point you made makes perfect sense.
Glad you saw it through. I too love the battle of helms deep.
4:26 Offa's Dyke was built by the Saxon invaders when fighting the Welsh. The Dyke was made "from sea to sea" to lock the Welsh inside modern day Wales and keep them from attacking.
To be fair just sieging helms deep out was what happened during the days of helm hammerhand the Uruk hai attacked mostly to defeat Theoden
Yeah, i understand the reason the Uruks attacked. I just mean, as a serious design flaw, against other opponents. It would just be too easy to place the fortress, as designed in the movie, under an effective siege.
@@ParryThis as said in most cases in the lore it was put under siege why the numenorians built it there I can’t answer but it seems to do it’s job in the lore
@@Cody-5501 It's there for two reasons: To combined with Isengard watch the Gap of Rohan, and to protect the Glittering Caves which were used as the Keep's store of provisions and during the battle to protect the noncombatants. These were also built thousands of years earlier when the political situation was different.
This was true premium content, well done. I learned much, still truly is best battle scene ever filmed. 🎉
It is also built on the north face of the mountain.
EDIT: The crenellations are tall enough for Gimli though.
Wow you really showed how the orcs and uruks almost defeated the men of Rohan in a amazing way. Also opened my eyes on how to make a good fortress that outlasts a siege and enemy attack. Although it is also described differently in the books and it would be cool if you do a version based on what tolkein wrote if you haven’t already
First of, great analysis, I agree with basically all points about the short-comings of this castle. Great work, it provided some more info on why I felt such strong distaste for it. I must say, that this very battle took me out of The Lord Of The Rings. It made me critique it more so than the films themselves, making me enjoy it altogether less, although cinematically it's a great piece of work. All 3 films have fantastic picture. However, this very fortress is designed in one of the worst, if not the worst ways possible and has countless amount of mistakes, many of which are pointed out in this video. Great job on that again.
Another thing that took me out of it, was almost all of the tactics that the defenders used in order to 'defend' themselves. For example, putting more spearmen at the towers and walls, than at the base of walls, the double doors and so on. In fact, it's the other way around. More archers are BEHIND walls and the double doors, than on walls and towers, where they should be. The spearmen rush in to aid at the breach too late, the king goes to the front-line and the attackers break through. Then the defenders don't tip over the fire pits and utilise fire to burn the Uruks (the fire pits lit on the walls). The king has horses at the hall and then charges through the enemy. Gandalf also does the same thing, but charges down a hill so steep that everyone could tip over. That gives him and his company no advantage, especially since Uruks have pikemen at the ready.
I could go on and on and on. From the way people wear armour, to equipment, to the fact that NO notable advancements have been made in THOUSANDS of years (armour is the same, weapons are the same, castles, etc.). And sure, the Orcs have made MANY mistakes during this battle as well, but they're naturally dumb. And has anyone noticed the extras in the background? Half of them do NOTHING, they just all stand around to fill in the frame.
I get it, it's a FANTASY world, but I just can't get over this. It is why I have my own issues with Star Wars battles as well. I like big battles that fantasy brings, but... little realism? Can't have?
Yeah, as far as most of the tactical blunders go, i can usually explain it by examining Jackson's work as a whole, and he is a big picture guy, not a historically accurate detail guy. He does a great job of drawing focus where he wants it, and the background is never meant to be examined. I think it usually works, but sometimes you notice the mistakes.
@@ParryThis Right, and that's fine, it's his own vision. Perhaps that is what got me so upset, because I do tend to be drawn to details in general. I took theses 3 films too seriously, that was my problem. And instead of laughing about it being ridiculous in some ways, I kept being mad about what the characters were doing and so on. He has a way with cameras though, absolutely.
Well as for the charge into pikes... That would be a problem but the whole point of it is that Gandalf timed it so that the sun would rise behind and blind the orca for a second so they'd recoil and lift their spears out of a braced position. Giving the cavalry the ability to just drive into them.
@@drd444 Try riding your horse in a gallop straight into a brick wall. Worse yet, a steel wall.
A mass of Uruks, more than 5 ranks deep, all in plate armor, would collectively shatter the bones of the horses and catapult the riders over as they suddenly stop from the impact. Cavalry are not battering rams.
@@roadent217 Oh yeah, that would be a fun scene...
In all fairness, the book does mention that Helms Deep is very old, outdated and barely brought back into service by the time Saruman attacked.
But on another matter. The fortresses location within the mountain makes a bit off sense if you consider the big horn. The gorge functions as an amplifier for the horns sound, turning it into a countrywide signal tower. Rohan is a rather flat land and the amplified sound should be able to cross miles upon miles.
Lmao. This was hysterical. All the stuff I noticed as well. Luckily, the movie was good enough to overcome these issues for those of us that noticed them.
Interesting video! A few counterpoints that I don't see mentioned in some of the top comments: Not every historical fortress used all the best technology or were designed according to best practices. Also, an interesting note on the strength of the outer gate: when the prop builders were told that Peter Jackson was actually going to take a battering ram to it, they were like, "Oh, shoot--we better make this a little stronger than a typical prop." The result was that the stuntmen were unable to batter down the gates, and they had to deliberately weaken it for the effect we see in the movie. That comes from one of the commentary dvds.
Also, I realize you're criticizing the movie and not the book per se, but there was a rampart and trench across the entrance to the valley, but had a breach in it and they were insufficient to man it's length. Also, though this is not the king's personal castle, it is the castle and residence of one of his vassals (Erkenbrand).
Interesting thoughts on the design of the fortress. Still, on the argument regarding the lack of an actual gate for accessing the courtyard of the inner wall, I believe that there could be a plausible conscious decision supporting it. Buildings have history and change like living organisms. When the fortress was initially built there might be an actual wooden gate protecting the second level, but since this is a very old structure in the mythology of middle earth, the gate could have been destroyed in a previous battle. The surrounding and upper structures have signs of destruction and heavy wear as well (for example the balcony right above it). I believe this could be a convenient artistic solution provided by the designers, in order to solve a probable narrational problem of the film, which would be to have 3 consecutive wooden gate infiltration scenes in the same battle.
I could see the validity in the argument that at one point that archway had a door, but it has long since rotted away.
One piece of criticism I believe is missing. There are frickin stair coming from the deeping walls up to the hornburg. Which means that you don’t have to storm the hornburg, you need only to storm the deeping walls and then you walk into the keep without any obstacles. That infuriated me because not only these walls are not helping, they are the flaw in the construction that defeats the purpose. You can see it in the movie when Theoden calls Aragorn back to the keep.
I feel like the deeping wall is there to protect the water supply seeping out from the mountain.
I agree and that is a very critical part of the defense that is overlooked. I believe that it also gives a lot more room to work with. Whether it's room for livestock, all the citizens, hundreds of horses or thousands of soldiers. Not to mention it allows you to attack the enemy from two directions as well as give you the ability to have row upon row of archers. There is no way you could fit 2000 soldiers in the main keep of the Hornburg with enough room to draw a bow and be able to fight all at once.
The major question raised by Helm's Deep's position is what is it defending? Its place and design is slightly different in the books. Even so.
Two things to keep in mind about the setting.
1. The timescale of the series is much greater than it appears. Maybe hundreds or thousands of years ago Helm's Deep's location made sense.
2. Humans, dwarves and elves seem to have a hard time keeping up their populations for whatever reason. This seems to cause fortress mentality to recure in Middle Earth civilizations. It might be worth it for a small population to wait in an impossibly strong location for orcish rule's inevitably fall into chaos.
I think the in lore reason for its location is just that the Hornburg, and Isenguard are on opposite sides of the gap of rohan. So hypothetically, a well positioned force in each would make incursions into Rohan difficult until both positions had been captured.
The wall protects the caves. it is said in the books when they retreat.
I don't care if is correct or no, hearing others points of view is always good, halps to show new ways to see the context. Great video
Helm's Deep was built by Gondor to guard the Gap of Rohan. And it was the seat of Erkenbrand Lord of the West-Mark, making it a castle.
This is basic lore, my dude.
I was just thinking this but thought I was missing something remembering. Tolkien was very descript of his places so it would have been strange for them to get it so wrong.
I think he didn't read the books! 😂
He should just delete this video. It is emabarrassing.
i have been entranced by the helms deep battle since the first time i watched it as a 6 year old. legolas sliding down the stairs on the shield still gives me goosebumps 20 years later
The Hornburg must be understood as we understand ancient hillforts, not medieval castles. It's not a fortified home, nor a military fortress, but a place of refuge. The big empty space behind the wall is obviously for Rohan refugees and horses. They have used it so in the past in the texts.
Of course the keep itself could have been done better but that's the thing with these structures, they evolve. This is not a castle building nation, they inherrited an ancient fortress and made it capable of housing a hoard of livestock but that's it.
In both the movie and the books they make it pretty clear that there is a cave system behind the fort itself and thaat retreat is possible through underground passages that let out in several directions. This keeps them from being in a supply issue in a seige and allows them to send for help that would lift any seige that was established with such a small source as suggested.
Hmm. I wonder if the bao tapestry was also poorly representing artistic depictions. I wonder how people will look back at our period with grossly wrong representations of it.
It is very amusing to imagine what future historians will think of us.
I agree with the analysis, but it is predicated on it being a Anglo-Saxon structure. It was built in stone by the men of Gondor. A lot of what is said is still relevant in that “why did Gondor make a fortress there?”
Aragorn is sitting on his horse and watching Helms Deep and is like "Why The hell was Helms Deep build this way? Who came up with this" xD Also Idk why they skipped making ditches. Ditches are so important to protect ur walls. If Helms Deep had ditches then the Suicide bombers had not destroyed the Wall. And in Minas Tirith had ditches infront of their walls then the freaking Seige Towers had no effect on them! They would just roll down to the ditch. And if the Great Gate of Minas Tirith had a draw bridge then they could just have pull the bridge up and the Grond wouldn't be able to destroy the gate! There a lot of mistakes that these kingdoms have made but we cant help it rn.
1) Orcs fill in ditches 2) Plot proceeds as before, so it wouldn't matter much except to slow the story down in exchange for appeasing a small minority of fortress nerds.
@@gavinjenkins899 "except to slow tge story down"
How? Just add ditches in early battle scenes, and then show tgem as filled up in the later scenes. Boom, done - not even a single second of extra runtime.
ik I'm very late to this but with Minas Tirith Denathor gave the orders to abandon post due to his madness. It was very much a case of a good fortress under poor leadership
In the book, the Deeping Wall is a much longer curtain across the valley as you describe. The smaller wall (which is in the film) protects the entrances to the caves behind them, from which Eomer charges in the final phase of the battle (when Gandalf shows up with Erkenbrand, if I recall).
Rohan’s big brain strategy was to get the orcs to focus all their time and effort on a wall that protects nothing, whether they intended it or not the orcs wasted their resources on a part of the fortress that did not matter.
Grima was the one who pointed out the weakness of the wall to Saruman, does this mean that he may have intentionally thrown off Saruman’s strategy by directing his attention to a red herring??
In the movie design; the outer wall does something vital. The only way up the mountain is behind the wall.
Bro sounds like Kermit. The entire time watching this I’m just picturing Kermit narrating.
Just one thing I want to point out is in the beginning of the video you said helms deep wasn't well placed, it was built by the gondorians and was gifted to Rohan so rohan really didn't have a choice lol. They were gifted it and the lands they currently inhabit from gondor a long time ago. That's it, thanks for the good video.