He probably arrogantly ignored the advice of the mordor orcs sent to aide him. Those orcs were likely veterans of decades if not centuries of combat, but none were sent to aide the uruks in the films (unlike the books) not even to use experiance to aide the uruks.
Yeah, given how difficult it is to organize a group of 10,000 people I find the Uruk0hai behavior realistic. "You're ruining a siege - tomorrow!" Beyond armor a weapons the army will need to consider food, water, (for humans, light sources), communications, scouts, what to do about relief armies, etc. All those guys with pikes were probably equipped for a field battle against horsemen and had no time to get other weapons.
@Greg Elchert Both Saruman and Sauron were confident that their superior numbers could overrun the smaller force they were up against. But in both big battles, the good guys were well dug in, in their castles.
@@transformersrevenge9 remembering the batle at minas tirith, that battle is more organised, i guess sauron and the witch king have more experience in combat, than saruman or lurtz
Speaking as an archer here: you seem to put too much emphasis on volley-shooting for effectiveness, both in the defense and attack on Helm's Deep and the Gondorians at Osgiliath. Films draw heavily on a modern concept of volley shooting - specifically, the massed volleys from gunpowder line infantry. That sort of synchronised volley shooting is possible with muskets because the troops are trained to load and fire by the numbers, and the impact of a massed volley can break an enemy unit. Massed, synchronised volleys are not good at suppression because there are large gaps between volleys. Additionally, because archers are _not_ trained to shoot by tempo, it's far more difficult to get an archer unit to shoot together in one volley. Nor would a volley of arrows have the same impact as a volley of musket balls. Most of the arrows will miss, those that hit will be mitigated by armour and shields, and you don't get the crumpling wall of dead bodies that will smash a formation. We have little evidence of synchronised volleys being used in battle. Sources that use the term "volley" don't refer to synchronised shooting, and at best we have sources that describe something that might signal the beginning of shooting (in which the archers would likely all shoot together), but nothing that suggest that archers deliberately timed their shots to be synchronised. The true effect of massed archers is in _constant_ shooting. Descriptions of battles involving large numbers of archers (such as Agincourt) portray arrows as a "rain" or "storm". This description is more accurate if archers are all shooting at their own pace, naturally staggered as each man picks his own mark, draws and shoots as his condition allows him to. Not a wall of arrows every 10 seconds. The constant whizzing of arrows from continuous shooting will literally push the enemy formation back form the impact of the arrows. Volley shooting is a video game mechanic, not a real life one. The skirmish at Osgiliath would be a proper depiction of a small-unit battle - the Gondorians are scattered in defensive positions, there is no packed formation of archers that can coordinate their shooting, and they are not shooting at a massed unit on the other side of the river. Each archer is identifying their own target and shooting at their own pace. I don't see anything wrong with this scene from an archer's perspective. This is probably the best deployment of archers in this context, and would have more effective for suppression than volley shooting as a unit, since the targets would not know when and where the arrows will come. Likewise, the Uruk-hai don't need _volleys_ of crossbows to suppress the walls. They need _continuous_ missiles sweeping the walls. Volleys are _less_ effective at suppression because you have to slow down the rate of shooting so that men are loaded, which gives a bigger gap for the defenders to shoot back. I wouldn't call the long holds a military command blunder. That's just movies being dumb about how bows work. What _is_ a command blunder is Aragorn ordering a volley to be shot into the breach *while he is standing front of the archers.* That's a good way to get a dozen arrows in the back. That said, there's probably good reason for Aragorn to call a charge into the breach. Remember that only a small contingent of Elves at in this battle (and in book canon, there are none), they have already been loosing arrows from the wall, and Aragorn would probably not be confident that they had enough ammunition to continue suppressing the breach (in the book, Legolas - the only Elf at Helm's Deep - does in fact run out of arrows and fights with his long knives in this stage of the battle). In a page taken from Agincourt, the archers would have joined the melee to turn the tide.
he orders the volley pass him due to how excellent elves are at shooting, seeing as they dont "die" they can train for however long they wish, its why when the old man kills the uruk-hai he responds in elvish since he assumes that well placed a shot MUST be from one of his elves
@@TheAchilles26 I don't think so. The method of operation is quite different. Muskets have volley fire for several reasons, notably because of the extremely long reloads requiring the unit to hold their fire until the most effective point, in which a single volley can smash the opposing line; otherwise the entire unit is caught with ineffective trickles. Units were trained to load the complicated pieces "by the numbers", so every individual in the unit followed the drills consistently and under fire. The biggest difference, however, is that the musket was the standard weapon for line infantry, while crossbows were a specialised weapon used by auxiliary units against mixed cavalry and infantry with melee weapons and shields and/or armour. In contrast, crossbows were faster to load (depending on the weight and method of loading), and crossbow units often had assistants who had spare crossbows loaded, so the crossbowman could focus on picking their targets and shooting. It makes less sense for a crossbowman to wait for the entire unit to load when he had a loaded weapon that could bring down a target at will with another ready to go. Given the fewer numbers of crossbowmen in relation to the army, massed volleys would probably be just as unfeasible as with bows. The "continuous fire" I describe isn't a deliberate act, but simply that constant rain of shooting that naturally happens when combatants fire at will.
Also worth noting that archers don't tend to be as uniform in the bows they use, they don't tend to be uniform in the amount of arrows they can fire, they aren't uniform in how quickly they can fire, and they're not uniform in their ability to fire at distance. Having archers select targets as it suits them is just more practical.
@@NUSensei musket volley fire has to do with the relatively flat trajectory and the inaccuracy of the line infantry. the irregulars (sharpshooters) which were accurate did not do volley fire. having arrows rain down at the furthest range means that if they miss their target then it hits the ground, with a flat trajectory if the shot misses then it might hit one of the people behind the front line guy. the smoke of muskets also make it hard to even pick out targets when everyone is densely packed, which is needed if the troops can't accurately hit a man sized target at range to begin with. of course most battles were not with infantry standing in front of each other like the movies portray, but had men using cover, and at that point they didn't use volley fire either.
In fairness to Theoden, in the book he sends the civilians to Helm's Deep and plans to meet the Urukhai on the field but most of his army is scattered by the Urukhai at the Ford's of Isen, and he is forced to divert to Helm's Deep with the survivors he can gather.
@@paulraines9635 That's only the people living close by in the Westfold area. The population of Edoras (at least the valuable ones= were send to Dunharrow.
@@paulraines9635 yes they were. the difference is in the books Rohan is a much bigger country so the civilians fleeing Edoras were going to Dun Harrow while the civilians in Helm's Deep were from Westfold. the implication of the movies was done so that the audience would not get confused so Dun Harrow was not referenced until Return of the King and the folk of Westfold are not mentioned as hiding in Helms Deep (although is possible that the people already in HD were those people) Big difference is Rohan feels smaller since they reach Helm's Deep on foot after a few days travel while the same time in the book is only done on horseback at a fast pace.
Not to Hems deep but other fortresses, Theoden then forces Saruman to Attacl Helms Deep by deploying there, or the Uruks would have him cutting their line to Isengard
Pikes are not the best against cavalry. Their flanks are extremely vulnerable and even frontally the pike is vulnerable if its formation is too loose (as stated by many Renaissance pike drill books), what is worse is that the close formaitons needed for pikes to be able to defend against cavalry is vulnerable to infantry and archers, while the loser formaitons needed to fight infantry effectively in melee were vulnerable to cavalry (also mentioned in Renaissance pike drill books). And even well trained pikes in close formaitons are vulnerable to elite cavalry lancers (who can and did parry the lances if set up in good tight formaitons themselves, see the french-italian wars for a good example). Pikes need to be well trained and have good lighter infantry and good cavalry on their flanks (ideally infantry with missile weapons to break up formaitons of the charging cavalry, or to scare off missile cavalry. Hence why pike & *shot* became the answer to cavalry not pikes alone). In the books the army of isengard had only a few pikemen who were important in the battle of the ford's of isen. But had plenty of other troops to support them. Movie isengard leans too heavily into pikes.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 to be fair to the uruk hair pikes, they're not facing muskets, they're heavily armoured, they presumably have contingents of warg riders which we see in the raid where aragorn falls and they have soldiers equipped with sword and shield making them much more mobile. Pikes could be incredibly useful to pressure formations to move and force the lightly armoured defenders to avoid the breach even if they didn't inflict heavy casualties, no one (horse or human) will willingly run into the sharp pointy sticks.
@@jamiejamie9549 I am not saying pikes are useless, just that movie uruks lean too heavily into them as depicted on screen. Alteratively armed troops are not seen except in specific circumstances and in limited numbers.
In the books, Gandalf is the one who suggests they go to Helm's Deep. The movies do a disservice to Theoden's character. He comes off as a bit arrogant and petty, which he absolutely is not in the books. The Urakai aren't there to raid Rohan, they're there to exterminate them. They will attack Helm's Deep because that's where the people are. The idea is to weaken the orcs and then defeat them, which they would not be able to do if they immediately attacked them in open battle, which already happened btw, the battle of Isen Ford where Theoden's son died.
He did say he wasn’t considering book sources and was focusing on the movie version only. But you’re right, the Two Towers film does a real disservice to my boy Theoden
I feel like the film, thematically wants to set up Theoden's redemption in a wide arc, setting him up as an emotionally devastated monarch, out of touch and not thinking clearly to saving Minas Tirith from Mordor at Peleannor Fields is a cinematic climax fitting for the epic LOTR saga. But I agree it does unfortunately deviate from the source material
At 26:26 you say that the wizards magic is what blinds the Uruk-Kai but it isnt. Its the sun rising behind the riders. During the previous scenes we can even see the light of the sun shining lower and lower into the valley until it reaches the first line of spearmen just before the riders crash into them. Which I would count as a tactical wise decision as Gandalf did plan to arrive at dawn from the beginning.
Don't forget that these Uruk-hai were literally born within the last couple of weeks, and only armed within the last two. It is unreasonable to expect that they would have developed the ability to work in concert as experienced units might in that time. Frankly, it is a testament to Saruman's ability as a geneticist that they are able to use their equipment effectively at all, presumably acting mostly on the basis of instinct and ingrained magical programming. It is Saruman's fault that they were ordered to advance before having the chance to accumulate experience working in concert, and thus their failure to do so is a reflection on him and not them.
and the pikes were meant for an open battle just in case the defenders of the hornberg rode out to meet them, the siege kit was to destory the wall because saruman predicted correctly they were holed up there
And on the same note, think Saruman sending them into battle this early is because he wanted to win quickly. If we look at the movies, his window of opportunity is thin, and he used it. He wanted to attack while Rohan was weakened, so he had to march out immediately after Gandalf came and freed Theoden because he didn't want to risk the Rohirim gathering in time and assisting the besieged, which is ironically how the siege ended
I know you said you wouldn't evaluate the motivations of the characters. However, I can say the reckless assault with no long-term plan does seem to justify Theoden's idea of sheltering while the orcs pillage. If he's expecting the orcs to turn on each other and the army discipline to break down and infighting to proceed within days, it makes sense. The army would literally start eating itself if they could just last a week
In the book, it's Gandalf's idea and everyone is in agreement that it's a good idea. The orcs' goal isn't to pillage, it's to exterminate Rohan. They attack Helm's Deep because that's where the people are. The Rohirrim had absolutely no chance against the orcs in open battle. The point of going to Helm's Deep was to give them a fighting chance.
@@Benjamin1986980 the Rohirrim actually already tried that and lost. Its almost entirely excluded from the movie, but the Rohirrim under Theoden's son met the orcs at the Battle of Isen Ford and lost, resulting in the death of Theoden's son. So trying to do it again with even less troops against even more orcs would be plains suicide.
The plan to wait out the Uruk-Hai army was not going to work, it would not have collapsed on itself. Normally they do but because Saruman commands them his "power" over them prevents that from happening in such a scale that the whole army would be wiped out by it. Saruman is not Sauron of course and so his "control" over his forces ain't to Sauron's level but he still can do it to some degree. The Dark Lord effect you could call it. It's kind of baked into Orcs since Morgoth- if you get what I mean?
As far as the pikes go, I think Saruman thought his army would fight whatever was left of the Rohan army which is mostly calvary out in the open field. When fighting calvary the pikes would be a lot better. The retreat into Helm’s Deep was a very late development that Saruman had to put together a bomb himself to try and get past the defenses. Saruman had Theodin under mind control, he could have been planning to have the Rohirrum army go into a trap with an army perfectly matched to counter them. But now the army has to put together a very quick plan to siege the fortress.
@@GeraltofRivia22 One of the few situations where it acturly makes a small bit of sense. Sure trees don't just woof into flames like that, but it would be more damage than a normal arrow into wood
@@jesperstoringgaard8367 probably not since a fire arrow is quite a complicated device, which has very little armor penetration. Unless these orcs use some special oil or something then ligthing the end of an arrow with fire would be very impractical since as soon as you fire it then the flame would somply puff out. Ever wonder what happens when you blow out a candle? It blows out! It would be no defferent when firing a fire arrow. Therefore a special type of arrow would have to be made that can keep the fire buring without blowing out when fired. Lindybeige made an excellent video on just this topic and it really shows how impractical fire arrows would be on the battlefield. They might be used on siege engines with some measure of effect, though you would need a lot of fire arrows, since large chuncks of wood simply don't burst into flames when in contact with fire.
@@sebastianhovenas272 I reckon you've watched Lindybeige? And Sauruman would most likely know that chopping down Fangorn would piss of the ents, so fire arrows might be realy handy for him. So makes sense i would develop and make them.
About the bows, I think a rather good explanation for the early draw is available. Aragorn is commanding their forces. However, Aragorn is used to fighting with Elves especially. Creatures with supernatural grace and stamina. In the Lord of the Rings books and movies elves really are never shown suffering from weather or things like muscle stress. They seem to be able to hold their bows back as if the drain on their stamina is trivial. They do so twice in the movies and once more in the books. Even though Aragorn is human, he is a different breed of human. A Dúnedain, a kind of people who intentionally breed themselves to have lives and powers more similar to that of elves. He simply might not fully comprehend the limits of his fellow more base humans.
It's more breeding to keep these abilities given to them by the valar rather than something created by breeding (which your comment implies, even if jot your intention)
@@matthiuskoenig3378 Second verse same as the first. When giving explanations of things people are not familiar with I delete unnecessary details like the valar and the loyalty regimes of different human factions blah blah blah. Like if I was going to explain the Trinity Blood's main character, I'm just going to say, basically a vampire not unlike Blade. Is that precisely true? No. Will you accurately understand his physical and mental characteristics based on that description? Yes. Clarity > Technical Accuracy.
@@reaemishi2278 I disagree, treating people like idiots, and worse giving them false information, is never the answer. But if want something without the valar? Just say they are preserving an existing difference. Simple while still accurate.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 It is not treating someone like an idiot to reduce the amount of information that is given when that information does nothing to advance the purpose of the communication. Does understanding the motivations of the political structures of that race further the recipient's understanding of that race's physical characteristics? The answer is no, they could be doing what they do for any reason, but their reasons are not relevant to their outcomes. What is important is that my explanation does not explicitly contradict anything in a more expansive investigation of the facts. It is important to remember that you are taking umbrage with a possible implication of something I said, not something I actually said. The only one I would treat "like an idiot" would be one who looks for subtext in technical writing. Your car's user manual does not have subtext, as my writing does not. Such things are meant to be read literally.
About foraging: There is a great account from the Russian-Polish wars in the 17th century, where a polish army of about 17.000 troops besieged Novgorod for almost 3 months, and a company of light polish cavalry was tasked with foraging to provide food for the army. During the second and third month, they foraged in areas as much as 200 miles away from Novgorod, but they actually did manage to keep the entire army fed.
Don't sell horses short, they're REALLY mean in mounted combat. Horses would also maneuver differently, and pouncing would leave the individual warg/rider vulnerable. It's not as cut and dried, but the point of the different mount capabilities is valid, and a factor that's not delved into. Some of the things like the archers' long draw time are for cinematic dramatics, and don't work in real life, but work in movies to build tension. I would also argue that the Uruk Hai are very much an expendable/we have reserves army with a heedless commander in Saruman. And yeah, with all this silly parts, it's REALLY good.
The loss of the ability to shoot projectiles in a downpour would hurt the defenders far more than the attackers. Also, I get the feeling that Huruk-ai don't get sick, so attacking in the rain would only hurt the humans, so even if the initial assault was repulsed, more humans would get sick and the siege could be concluded more quickly.
Happy to be commenting this sort of content. Regarding the skirmish between the mounted troops: you made the point that the wargs are the most dangerous mount and yet they won the encounter (though barely). Conclusion: the Rohirrim are the most dangerous riders (and rider>mount). Also, Battle for Middle Earth 1 was an awesome game.
The Rohirrim are well armored, and, using the little knowledge of the books I have, are the faction and setting equivalents to housecarls or knights, so they are well trained and brave warriors, riding strong horses, while the warg orcs are undisciplined and bloodthirsty brutes with no armor riding big wolves.
@@thekinginyellowmessiahofha6308 Another thing about the Rohirrim in the skirmish is that unlike the orcs, they have ranged weapons (bows and throwing javelins) and know how to use them from the horseback, giving them another advantage.
The Uruks being otherwise poor military strategists is perfectly explainable by the fact that they’ve literally been alive for a couple months at most. They’ve pretty much only been taught to have been fighters, and for not long at that, and the formations they do pull off like tortoises and pike blocks make sense because they’re relatively simple. The Uruks bringing their pikes makes sense to me because they literally diverted to Helm’s Deep, they were expecting an open battle so they kept their pikes. The fact there are so many pikes and troops, means that realistically, there wasn’t much Theoden could do. Its either go on the battlefield and die, or hole up inside an extremely defensible position. A third option however is to basically gather all his forces made up of light or heavy cavalry, flee into the hills, and launch constant, incessant hit and run attacks on the Isengard forces made up entirely of infantry forces, and make heading into the countryside a terrifying experience for the conquering forces. But that would still lead to his country being conquered. Overall, it’s just bad options all around.
27:10 The book actually depicts how Saruman had stored some secretive vats or furnaces that could erupt on his command. Basically, he had stored away fire-mines that would definitely burn wood very quickly, even that of an Ent.
About the uruk-hai. In the films they remarked on their incredible stamina. Also since they eat humans, marching them near starving to a fortress full of basically food. Would be a good way to ensure they try their hardest to get in.
I believe movies do this stupid "hold" maneuver for two reasons. 1: Dramatic effect 2: Because they think of a bow like a gun and don't think about the actual effort required in using one.
in defense of the orcs attacking during the rain it is probably advantageous for them to force the defenders out into the miserable rainy night so that the defenders have to suffer with them.(those pikes are crap for the siege but the were probably great for defending against cavalry while they were marching through the open plains)
In defense of the Osgiliath scene at 26:44 is is clear that the city is not just some field or regular siege like Helms Deep and is more akin to urban warfare, due to how you can see arrows whizz past the screen the Gondorians are also being shot back at so perhaps taking cover is more favourable to fighting in formations and doing volleys?
In terms of rallying all of your Lords to fight again it's one of those things where it turns out that Isengard has Cavalry but is no match for yours and you have a nation of horse Lords that love horses like their own kin, so well it would take time to rally the men at the same time the fact that Theoden desn't even attempt this in the two towers but then does so in return of the King is definitely a problem. It's especially bad when you look at how Rohan basically has a minutemen style warrior society where there are always hundreds of riders ready to ride at a moment's notice to fight. You could argue that they need to defend their own lands which is a fair argument but the fact that he doesn't even try this is sad and basically only there to build drama. It does have the side effect of making him look stupid.
Minor nitpick, the Uruk Hai carrying pikes makes perfect sense through a country known for its cavalry. Since they don't have a camp set up, what are they going to do with those pikes once you get to Helms Deep? You're gonna hold onto it till you have to go up the ladder!
For the time of the attack: I would assume Saruman knew or at least thought that Gandalf wouldn't give up so easily and would fether the Rohirim, so if the Uruks would have waited for the next day to start, the chances would be good Rohan reinforcements are ready and there. In the movie we actually see that Gandalf arrives in the dawn, so imagine if we move the battle to after the night, then the wall of Helms Deep wouldn't even have breached before Gandalf arrives. Saruman wanted to defeat and conquer Helms Deep as fast as possible and had no time to lose
The bright light shining on the Uruk-Hai is not magic, it's the rising SUN. Gandalf said to look for his coming at dawn. The sun is rising over the ridgeline and Gandalf times his charge to take advantage of that moment. As he once said, "a wizard always arrives PRECISELY when he means to". He apparently meant that one quite literally.
Three things: one the pikemen we're there to defend against the Rohan Cavalry. Which we see later when Gandalf charges down the hill, however, they are blinded by the sun light. You are right about the horde needing formations to properly operate this battle, to my knowledge this is the first time they have seen battle. Second the Urikah around the ballistas seem to be there for security, and if I'm not mistaken they probably helped puch the artillery into place. Especially since we see no draft animals, for food, transportation, or medical. Third it seems that they were planning to eat the dead defenders, and their own fallen comrades. Also I think you did a very good job with this video, keep it up.
welcome back! Unfortunately the audio is extremely low on this video and out of balance, I had to adjust ~30% to the right for the first 5 minutes of the video before it equalizes itself and gets louder. I would suppose that the uruks have pikes because the army wasn't made to take helms deep it was made to fight rohan, which has a lot of cavalrymen, so the pikes would be very useful on the march there. I'd suppose the better way to show that would be to have a giant pile of pikes behind the Uruk army as they drop them just before starting the assault.
i listened to it without earphones or earbuds or whatever they are called these days, listening to it on my crappy phone’s crappy built in speaker, straight up. Sounded fine to me the whole time. But if it was doing that on your earphones, fair points.
I think a lot of the flaws in the Rohirrum's strategies have to do with the fact they're mostly a cavalry based military, and the Uruk-hai are rather young and inexperienced with logistics (who hasn't taken control of a large army in a videogame just to find out how important and difficult logi is?) and as wise and old as Saruman is I don't think he's every lead whole massive armies before and I also don't think he values the lives of orcs.
Great video! I'll defend the film's logic as best I can because I love it too much so max copium ahead: Theoden's decision to go to Helm's Deep is a sound one, as it seems like Isengard is already prepped for war while Rohan hasn't even begun to marshal its forces, save for Eomer. It also forces the Uruk-Hai to expend their superior numbers attacking a fortified position, one that is at the end of a narrow valley no less. Its position makes it a death trap for the attackers should any relief force arrive. Indeed in the books going to Helm's Deep is Gandalf's idea for this very reason. Theoden's only mistake is not sending out riders to marshal his own relief force while he hid, as he was able to assemble 6000 riders in the next film at relative speed. Assuming the enemy would raid and then leave might be sound if the enemy came all the way from Mordor, but Isengard is so close that they're not going to go away any time soon. The Dunlendings are absolutely going to settle the lands because they used to live there. But Theoden only says these things to bolster his men's morale. Sending riders to Gondor would be a waste of time because Gondor if anything is expecting Rohirrim relief armies, not the other way around. Even if they could send a large army to exterminate Isengard it would take far too long to assemble and get there. Aragorn's been smoking too much longbottom leaf if he's even suggesting this. The elves are from Lothlorien which is actually quite close to Rohan. Positioning them separately from the men avoids confusion between their commanders, and the elves are essentially on a suicide mission so they take the more vulnerable spot. I believe the Uruk-Hai attacking immediately is also in the books. They don't seem to want to wait and rest and are trying to speedrun the seige. Perhaps they are aware of how delicate their position is and how undersupplied they are. It is worth noting that Saruman cut many corners to assemble his army as quickly as he did, and that Sauron's army in the next one (at least in the books) planned their advance, encampment, strategies, and logistics much better. Additionally in the book Saruman believes there is a decent chance the One Ring is in Theoden's hands so he's in a rush to try and take it. But in the film he doesn't seem to dwell too much on losing Merry and Pippin so make of that what you will. The Uruk-Hai assumedly brought so many pikes in the event that the Rohirrim met them in the open field, where they could be used against cavalry. However in the siege there shouldn't be any pikemen anywhere close to the walls where they can't participate. They should be closer to the back in case a relief force arrives. The only time the pikes would be useful is potentially in fighting over the gatehouse, where a phalanx could push the clustered defenders back and allow space for the attackers to enter relatively uncontested. But wouldn't you know it this does not occur. Aragorn commanded his troops to charge to try to contain the breach in the walls. He only seems to take half his force with him, but we don't see any volleys from the remaining half. It should be noted that the stairs leading up to the fortress are close to the walls, so if the Uruk-Hai are allowed in even under repeated volleys the defenders wouldn't be able to escape. The main criticism is Aragorn absolutely should've ordered a general retreat at once; Theoden shouldn't have had to tell him to do so. Aragorn and Gilmi's heroics at the causeway are sound as such a narrow space permits them to fight so many. However Theoden allows them no means of escape. Additionally the repairs he makes to the door basically do nothing, as he gives up the gatehouse right after they are made. If an arrow can break the super-siege ladders then assumedly a sword swipe to the ropes on the hooks should also do the trick. The design seems deeply flawed but if they made Theoden abandon the gatehouse then I suppose they did their job. In the books the horn is terribly loud and disrupts the enemy for the charge to take place. It doesn't seem to bother the enemy much in the film so it's surprising the charge works at all. Not even one shot of the Uruks covering their ears? Lastly although the enemy is scattered by Eomer's riders the Hornburg itself (unsuitable for cavalry) is still filled to the brim with Uruk-Hai so it seems like clearing all of them out would be a very long and bloody task, unless they surrendered or something. Maybe they bartered passage in exchange for not butchering all the women and children still in the fortress that they had control over :) As for flaws in the design of the Hornburg, eh it's a terribly old fort so it's fine.
@@sebastianhovenas272 that’s not what he said. He said that the elves as a separate unit in the battle aren’t that far separated from the men defending the higher walls and the main gate.
The Uruk-Hai having pikes would have been a very fair move by Saruman. Rohan was known for its horsemen and as Gandalf was with them, he would have almost certainly expected for them to attack his forces before they reached the Deeping.
About the food problem with the Uruk-Hai army, I do believe earlier in the film there was a line "Looks like meat's back on the menu boys!" said who I think was an Uruk-Hai, before they all started to cannibalize on each other.
This is going to be directed more at the none book readers. Going to Helms Deep was the only viable option for Théoden King. In open battle he is heavily outnumbered against an enemy that was tailored equipped to fight a Calvary heavy army, A enemy army The three hunters and Gandalf have seen and got knowledge of be it through observation or battling forces from it. The Uruk-Hai are bred for a single a purpose of destroying the people of Rohan in one sweep, in open field or in Edoras the Rohan forces had no chance, Gandalf would know their desire and purpose since he Knew Saruman and well he can read him now like a book as Gandalf the White. (In the book a fact Aragorn and Gandalf heavily point out to Théoden, who wanted a Pitch battle at the Fords of Isen be it this was due to lack of intelligence about the situation than Ego or stupidity, once realising the situation he knew it was time to hold up in The Hornburg). Only The Hornburg had the strength and position to provide the needed barriers to make a stand even possible and it had it's own sizeable garrison to boot as well, the civilians were also left in Edoras as well, only civilians at Helms deep in the book were refugees from the Westfold who fled there before Théoden's arrival. Normally Your would be correct of course about the hiding strategy being just a delay at best, but in this scenario it's the rare exception where the Enemy will come for you even in your castle, since their leader does not want the land or pillage, but annihilation of your people, dynasty and your military first before taking the land as the prize. We must take into factor in this scenario that Sauron wants Rohan eliminated so they can't aid Gondor, and his underling (Movie only) Saruman will focus on that as commanded. Gandalf knows this being well Gandalf and warns Théoden so of this along with Aragorn. Théoden telling his people they will pillage and Burn is more for morale than anything else, if he told them they're doomed because of 10,000 Uruk-Hai are coming his people would panic and come to battle more scared with the idea their own King thinks they will not win. Aragorn and Legolas should also have never had their conversation among those worried, scared men and children, it is quite an out of character action really for either of them to perform likely a minor slip up of the writers for tension in the film. Why the Uruk-Hai attack in the rain at night? Well discipline, planning and generally self control ain't traits I would apply to them. they're blood lusted, very obedient order followers, and likely wanted to fight as soon as they arrived. A very typical Orc/Uruk behaviour backed by by the previous film and this one. (In the books the Uruks/Orcs and dunlanders were smarter in their choice of battle and tactics, and it was not raining either If I recall). And this Isenguard army unlike the Mordor armies lacks human soldiers, Orc officers and the Nazgul to keep the troops in line and obey advanced orders. We must remember Saruman made this army fast, and while they got fancy equipment, they're are poorly trained and rely on pure strength and savagery than actual tactics or training to win their fights. This movie showed how Orcs fight well a proper commander or command system in place, a mass of chaos who know their job but their is no overall thinking or coordination, and we can see these issues are not so present in Mordor's army though. It shows off that cannon fodder mindset use of Orcs. quite well. For the people out there wondering why the light had such an effect on the Uruk-Hai spear wall; It's because Orcs (Uruk-Hai are still orcs but just bigger and more resistant to the sun) have a ingrained hatred of the Sun and it stings them and is uncomfortable for them to be in due to well events involving the higher beings of this universe. Uruk-Hai are resilient to this but when it's focused by a powerful being like Gandalf their immunity crumbles too it. Of course a lot of these issues are not present in the Books and the war planning is more deeper and better thought of on both sides in the books.
Maybe so many of the Uruk'Kai were armed with long pikes because they were expecting to face off against mostly men on lightly armored horses during their long march. So, the columns of Uruk'kai presented a formidable and costly obsticle to hit and run tactics. Just a guess.
your imperial majesty, while i largely agree with our points that the urruks (not sure if thats the right spelling) plan is slap dash and confused the hoard tatics they deploy do have some advantages. having their men rush the walls largely prevents the helmsdeep defenders from targeting specific individual such as the cross bow men, ladder carrers or engineers or the bezerker with any degree of accuracy and as we see their seems to be a lack of speailised equpment the urruks brought with them which means any loss of miss managemet of these equpment like the bombs. could be devastating imagein if the defenders had seen the bombs out in the open they and their carrires could have being pinned down and possible detonated form a far. its a low chance given the bombs are armored to an extent but at the very least the lose of the bombs would have lost likely hundreds of urruk lives in an attempt to reclaim them and as you yourself pointed out their supplies seem extremely limited. if they had any food or water prevesions with them its likely depleted or running very low the urruks can not afford a lengthy siege they do not seemingly have the temperment for it as they seem to be more aggressive then typical orks or goblins. though perhaps i would have had the urroks along the bomb path rase their sheilds to protect the few bombs they brought with them as well as the bezerker . i once the laders had being estaplised id pull the urrks back as the laders seem to be diffcult to dislorge and having the men urruks crowd around them once their role as meat sheild was done is wasteful. doing so would also minimise their loses once the wall fell but as urrks are extremely instinctual fighters this may be impossible and unreasonable to expect them to behave rationally i do not have any defancers however for king theoden's actions perhaps he was still not in his right mind after learning of his possession and manipulation and learning that his line was ended. he gave into fatalisem and grief
Uruk hai are not men. They’re not even normal orcs. They’re superhuman. They’re extremely durable and strong, marching for days isn’t that difficult of a task for them. They were magically created after all
Having the chance to watch the movie as it was meant to be due to the recent rerelease of the extended edition at the cinemas. It was so amazing, You get to appreciate details even a home cinema won't provide. Such soldiers nursing each other, orc movement on the other side of Osgiliath despite the distance, villagers on the daily lives, surviving Elves fighting alongside Rohhirim at the Hornburg or even orcs socialising during their free time while Frodo and Sam tried to enter the black gates......plus witnessing Balrog and Ganadlf's duel at the start of the movie on the big screen just hits different :) You don't really see it when they enter the fort but the elves send are supposed to be around 1000. You notice it more when they are spread out on the deeping wall and behind it. Of course in the books there never was Elvish help but the Rohan had an army of 2000 not 300+, with a re-enforce of 1000 more coming later.
I am glad to see you back again this was another great video and analysis with good humor. On to the castle of Helm's Deep itself it has alot of design flaws and wasted defending potential as pointed by other UA-camrs like Shadiversity and many others when you look it up. Helm's Deep's designs could have been alot better and made into a real efficient defending fortress then the too simple depiction design in the films. When it comes to tactics, strategies, and the circumstances surrounding military decisions of the war by the leaders I think JRR Tolkien had a higher level of extensive knowledge when it came to setting up the battles that would take center stage in his narrative. For instance there is alot more higher intelligent decisions made by Theoden and Saruman when it came to dividing and setting up forces and having external fortifications established. I still like the movie battle but book commanders make alot more reserve and strategic decisions and the reasoning circumstances surrounding them. Like the battle at the river and the external fortifications at Helm's Deep. If I may divert the topic of Helm's Deep to my analysis of Return of the King book's setting circumstances. The battle of Minas Tirith in films has a bit more set up but it's not as concrete as the book version of the siege. In the book seige Sauron's commanders actually make some pretty logical average decisions like securing the roads to Minas Tirith and sending smaller armies to garrison the flanks of the main seige and preventing immediate reinforcements and counter attacks to aid the city. Though I would say one problem Sauron doesn't do is that he didn't expand the front lines just a bit more due to how many reserves he really had. The seige alone is hinted that there were about almost a hundred thousand present on Sauron's side comprised of orcs, uruks, easternlings, harad, and maybe even some of his higher rank agents and servants like the Black Numenoreans were present managing the grand assembled host. The siege lasted three days and in my perspective I think this host may have been centralized into a single region just a bit too much. I would have adviced dividing forces a bit more and dragging the siege to paralyze the kingdom of Gondor and Rohan's ability to retaliate then just securing the flanks and roads. Don't get me wrong the strategic decisions made in the book are far superior then the movie's but pretty average tactics to a regular logistical military commander. There could have been more potential with the amount of resources Sauron's forces had compared to Gondor's at this time. The Corsair's raids on Gondor's ports were smart but their could have been more they could have been done to make it even more severe. Lore of the Rings did great presenting the battle tactics and describing the setting circumstances leading up to the battles themselves. Check him out he's very good. By the way 13:20 was very hilarious and true of what would likely take affect as a long term consequence.
Well according to Darth Gandalf the Mordor army directly assaulting Minas Tirith was about 60,000 strong (though this is by know means canon, just an edjucated guess by him). His reasoning was that since the mordor armies were defeated by the much smaller (yet not small) forces of the west then the army woulden't be overwhealmingly large, though 60,000 is still a lot
@@sebastianhovenas272 I remember that though it's been a while since I last watched that video. The wiki I researched on recently seemed to claim there was over 70,000 orcs and 20,000 men on Sauron's side. Though I believe Gondor's numbers are far too small.
to be fair about a few things -Theoden did order a watch on the surround and was focused on prepare the defenses. -Gondor was dealing with the attack on Osgiliath, and it doesnt help that they were under the rule of Denethor who is a whole 'nother can of worms -By fleeing to helms deep, Theoden was forcing the enemy to come to him, thereby dictating the terms of the battle, which gave them an advantage, if only small.
Just throwing it out there, a video breaking down the book's version of the battle would be very interesting. Especially as a contrast to the films version.
It must be pointed out that Saruman being quite a long way around the bend from sane by that time is fairly well established. Military problems generally begin at the top and filter down, as in so many other areas of life.
My take on the blowing up the wall while your own troops are there; orcs, even Uruk-Hai are fairly disposable; they receive only basic armour and training but are every effective against Men because they are practically wild animals with swords and armour; they make up for the lack of skill with brute strength and an element of psychological warfare, and the action of blowing up the wall is put of that same psychological tactic. The Uruk-Hai far outnumber the defenders so equal number of losses is a much smaller percentage of the overall force, but more importantly it's the message it sends; the Uruk-Hai will blow up it's own troops to breach the walls, and if they'll be that reckless with the lives of their own troops just to get inside the fortress, what will they do to the defenders and civilians inside... by killing a few hundred Uruk-Hai they can almost break the defenders morale (And we do see this as well). You also stoke the blood-lust of the Uruk-Hai; they see they have breached the wall, and so will be far more enthusiastic to get inside to fight, and quickly swarm the remaining defenders, which is probably where Orc armies are most effective.
i had no idea that ancient war horses or medieval war horse to trained to also kick, trample, and bite. Fascinating! Makes sense. I wonder if there is a standalone history video about ancient or medieval war horses talking about all that?
That is a myth. You wax bow strings to keep them from being damaged by moisture and to keep them from fraying. Wet bowstrings do not impact their performance.
@@TheAchilles26 There are mentions of archers using animal fat, or tallow, to maintain their strings. Tallow is what most candles were made from as beeswax was very expensive. The word wax was sometimes used for tallow as both were used for candle making and interchangeably for other products. The only historical source I know of that mentions wet bowstrings is from the battle of Crecy in reference to the Geonese crossbowmen in the French army. It said that their strings were wet from marching in the rain which is why they didn't work. That is a fallacy. No one, especially professional mercenaries, marched with their weapons strung. You strung them before battle. The account is also an excuse from the French side because the real reason the crossbowmen were ineffective was that they were not allowed to rest before being deployed, were not allowed to retrieve their pavises from the baggage and had to advance uphill facing into the sun. Also crossbow strings are very different than bowstrings. It was also mentioned that the English archers kept their strings under their hats to keep them dry. This was standard practice not something unique to Crecy. You want to keep the string dry to preserve it when not in use but it doesn't correlate to not using it in the rain. Most bowstrings in the Middle Ages were made in Flanders. The Flemish bowstring was famous throughout Europe and their workshops dominated the market for hundreds of years. The Flemish were also England's ally and supported them during the Hundred Years War. It is known that a wax and resin mixture was used in the process of making the bowstring so it comes already waxed. The Battle of Towton, during the War of the Roses, was fought in a blizzard. The only reported effect of the weather on the archery was from the wind causing one side's arrows to not travel as far and the other's going farther, no mention of the effect of the snow on the bowstrings. The only affect of rain on archery I can find is that it soaks the fletchings making the arrows less accurate and reducing range. If you have actual sources that mention how rain damaged bowstrings please list them as I would like to see them.
@@kingemperorpenguin1 tht mass of pike um men reminds me of a 400 yard patch of gravel at Paris Island when I was there turned into a quagmire when the 2 blocks men in full kit head of my block went through it. And pike men blocks in the 15 and 1600 didn't fight in the rain or right after it rained or at least they didn't in the battles I have read about them
For the sake of nerding out, I don't think attacking in the rain in this scenario is that big a deal for a few reasons, 1) if it hampers bowstrings then that works on the defenders too, who have an archers' advantage in position and skill (elves), 2) they would have no idea when the rain would stop, which could mean waiting for the ground to get worse before attacking (the rain didn't seem to last long at all anyway) 3) logistics aside (which just aren't mentioned, so maybe there's a baggage train in the back that wasn't included in a shot because it's not as visually scary as the army itself) it may be better to attack sooner if you think a relief army may come (which did in fact arrive), 4) the ground seems rocky and therefore not nearly as muddy to hamper siege equipment (the only wheeled equipment not just carried by hand anyway were a couple ballistas), 5) do Uruk-Hai GAF about getting sick? and wouldn't that apply to the defenders as well?
well the strategy of hiding in Helm's deep would work if they had the time to do a scorch earth policy and get as much supplies in Helm's Deep. Even in the books it was a bit off that Rohan's main army weren't involved just those from Edoras and survivors of the Battle of the Ford, when it took less than a week for 10,000 soldiers to be mustered to Dunharrow. Yet only around 2 or 4 thousand were involved in the fight with Saruman. Movie made a little sense that Theoden being controlled would have prevented Rohan's army from mustering after his son was killed but even after he recovered didn't seem to want to rally his forces but took the city's civilians closer to where the orcs where instead of sending them to Eastward like he did in the book.
26:17 Are we not going to comment on the incline of that hill and how those horses would not be able to fully gallop down it without tumbling? How does everyone miss this?
what do you mean there is no food? there are a bunch of tasty elves and men on those walls! not to mention, you have soldiers to spare considering its 3300 vs 10000. As an Uruk, you aren't very picky :P...unless you've had nuthin' but maggo'y bread fir three stickin' days!
The battle of Helm's Deep took place during a rainy night for cinematic reasons. The darkness makes the orc army look more threatening. They are some what chaotically arranged to reinforce their villainy.
Orcs attacked at night in the books too. Remember orcs and uruks have better night vision than humans. The rain is just happenstance in universe. But meta wise helps set the mood.
If I recall from my copy of "The Lord of the Rings: Weapons and Warfare - An Illustrated Guide to the Battles, Armies and Armor of Middle-Earth", By Chris Smith with a Forward By Christopher Lee (A Military Sourcebook they released in 2003 to show off prop photos and explain military things within the universe of the movies), The Uruk-Hai's use of Pikes and proximity to the walls had some use...chiefly in that the pikes had a hook on them that helped push the siege ladders up...That said, there's still far too many pikes for that to make sense, same with the mosh pit in front of the walls (If we're being charitable, hiding the sappers setting up explosives?). Also surprised you didn't mention the Uruk-Hai Berserkers riding the smaller ladders up. As you can imagine from the term berserker, those Uruks were blood drunk at the start, carrying big 2-handed swords, and wearing little more than Helmets (With the intoxicant smeared inside of it) and Loincloths.
Obviously the video is based on the movies, but for sure after reading the books and experiencing the events on a more first-hand role thanks to Lord of the Rings Online it definitely felt strange some of the choices they made. Théoden DID rally his forces, but Eeomer and the forces of several other large houses were fighting on the western front and needed to be called back. You definitely get a better sense of scale of things as you progress deeper through the Riddermark, helping to fight a losing battle as each major house fails in protecting their own lands and must retreat to Edoras. The SCALE of Edoras is also, in my opinion, shamefully done in the movies after experiencing it differently. It looks like a small hilltop hovel compared to the large and open city with a massive Hall sitting at its hilltop.
Some corrections: The dark rainy clouds come with the Orks, because they don't like the sunlight. The Uruk-hai have less problems with that (they can be in the sunlight at all without cowering in fear) but are still hindered by it, which is shown when the riders attack (they aren't only blinded by the light, they have a more visceral reaction to it, thus losing pretty much all effectiveness with the lances/pikes/halberds they use). That is a consistent thing with Tolkien (even though it is not explained here, but shown and sometimes talked about in the films). The siege went on for more than one day, you just can't see the passing of one day because of the dark clouds, Gandalf arrived at the first light of the FIFTH morning. The Rohirrim pretty much at no point in time use longbows. They are very clearly and pretty much always shown to use shorter rider bows (like what the Mongols, Huns or Hungarians used). Those are completely different to what an english longbow is. Actually only the Elves and Dunedain are shown to wield something that is a longbow, but that doesn't mean it must be an english one. The elves are shown to be able to hit the weak spots of the armour, for them it's simply a fact of knowing where to shoot, they will hit. That's why Legolas tells the other elves around him where to shoot, he has more experience with the Uruk-hai. And yes, Theodens decisions lack all the information that is given in the book and looks a lot more foolish in the films, but in the end was the right decision, because there is no way they would have defeated that Uruk-hai army in the open field.
One important thing I forgot: Most if not all things Theoden publicly said was purely to raise the morale of his men and give them some hope. He knows the situation better than anyone advising him but needs to show his men that hey can win this fight, even though he is sure they won't. You can see it in all of his interactions.
I did give a critique on the volley fire but I dont want to make it sound like I disapproved of the whole video. It was one tiny point but I dont want it to get confused, I loved this video! As I do all of your videos and have agreed with probably all your other points in all your critiques. You clearly know what your talking about and always have the notifications on for this channel
Regarding the rain matter at 14:00 I think it actually does make sense for the Uruk-hai to attack now because they force those conditions upon their foes. I doubt Uruk-Hai can get sick, but the soldiers on the wall sure can. Also while the Uruk-Hai certainly do have crossbows, but it doesn't seem like they have a lot and the rain is going to hurt the elves and Rohirim archers much more.
Any military historian or anyone with archery experience would tell you that volley fire with archers is pointless. Its much more effective and efficient to free fire. Difderent archers will having varying strengths or accuracy and forcing people to hold their bolstering decreases accuracy and tires the archer out quicker. It's better to just give the order to release when the enemies are in range, then command to change targets, focus or cease as and when.
Since orcs are not very selective when it comes to food, my guess is their provisions would have been replenished by the corpses of men and orcs slain in battle, aswell as any captured people. I could even imagine the orcs were kept hungry deliberately to make them more bloodthirsty (Uruks aren't human and are quite sturdy from what I remember, so they might not be affected in the same way by hunger as we are).
13:34 Elves move very quickly on foot. In Rings of Power (which Twitter reliably informs me is the most Tolkien thing ever), Celebrimbor walks from Eregion to Khazad-Dum and back in what seems like a leisurely afternoon stroll. Doesn't even bother to change out of his fancy clothes or bring a snack for the road. Now imagine what properly-equipped Elvish soldiers marching to battle at full speed could accomplish, it's no surprise they can show up at a moment's notice.
Compared to the logistical and organizational errors on Saruman's part that you described, this is a small thing. However, it seems that He of Many Colours sent the whole of his cavalry (The worg riders) on that pointless attack on the refugee column heading to Helm's Deep. Not only would it have been better to raid and harass the civilians to slow them down and pick off some of their guardians, but by squandering all of his cavalry, he left his main force vulnerable to the same sort of campaign. Sending a long, lumbering column of heavy infantry through hostile territory of an enemy renowned for their superb cavalry is a good way to get bled and worn down by hit and run attacks. If the Uruk Hai army had a logistics train, it would have been easy for a more mobile enemy to pick apart over the long march. In fact, no one on the Rohan side seems to have thought of this, but it's never a good idea to plan on your opponent being incompetent.
25:10 About the ladders being shot by ballistas at the walls, I've seen similar contraptions being used in ancient China, but it was more like a siege tower with ballistas capable of shooting some sort of giant ramp
Actually, in regards to the pikes, they have them for two reasons: they were expecting to fight cavalry on the way to Helm's Deep, and if you look closely in some scenes, they use the unique way the spearpoints are designed to actually assist in pushing the ladders upwards. However, beyond that, I do agree that the pikes would largely be useless up until the walls of the keep are breached.
I am glad to see you covered this battle finally. There are some things I agree on and some things I disagree. I disagree with crossbow mass volleys for 2 reasons: 1: Bows reload faster than crossbows, allowing for uncontested volleys from the defenders inbetween crossbow volleys, also increases the chances the enemy will take cover and not get hit. 2: Massed crossbow fire will increase instances of multihits, with fire at will some are shooting while others are still loading and therefore can't hit the same target twice The massed troops is a good idea, having them around in a world where arrows won't go through 1 target and hit the guy behind them these guys provide consealment, making important soldiers hard to see in the swarm and cover, absorbing arrows meant for the engineers/ladder bearers. The pikes I half agree, in the climb they would be worthless but could be decent if the sappers destroy the wall as their long reach would allow them to attack anybody running to plug the gap and potentially create a foothold in the breach for others to enter. The rain I agree, rain would make climbing ladders harder due to it being slippery, make the ground harder to advance on as it turns to mud, make explosives harder to ignite, only defense for that is as you said the weakened string, given that 25+% of the garrison being Elves, known for archery more so than their melee skills that could really weaken the defenders.
I do think that what had been done pretty well in this movie, militarily speaking, was the way Faramir and his Ithilien Rangers handled themselves during the ambush. They were sited to different spots of high ground which overlooked the pass that the Haradrim and their mumakil would have been forced to take to reach Mordor as part of the invasion of Gondor. They used their bows to inflict long-range damage against the Haradrim force, causing it to lose any cohesion and to stop it from making an effective response against their attack. Furthermore, Faramir and the rangers were able to panic a mumakil, sowing further confusion amongst the enemy host, which meant that their morale would be shattered and the Haradrim would be less inclined to fight for Sauron any further, which meant less men for Gondor to contend with during the climatic Gondor campaign.
To an extent, the Uruk Hai tactics were solid. I mean, when you come down to it, they were marching on a fortress manned by only 300 men. They invested in Pikes expecting the Rides of Rohan, and they were not trying to fight a long campaign in Rohan. The goal was extermination, not conquest. With the addition of the elven archers, and especially the flank of the Rohirrim with Gandalf, there were factors in the fight they could not have accounted for. As to rations.... they're cannibals. Their dead are the food. ("Meat's back on the menu, boys!" -The Two Towers)
The lack of logistics almost makes sense, Saruman might know nothing about how armies work as this is his first one. Previously he only had small raiding forces like the one led by Lurtz. As for other siege movies, it's obviously not nearly as good, but I enjoyed the siege at the end of Jack the Giantslayer and would be amused to hear your take.
as for the lack of logistics, it also makes sense if you consider that Saruman did not really expect a battle. He expected his troops to quickly massacre the remaining Rohirrim. At this stage in the story, Saruman likely already had his eyes set on his next targets: - Attacking Gondor while it was preoccupied with Mordor to find the ring - using the ring and his control over Gondor and Rohan to challenge Sauron Ultimately Saruman just underestimated Rohan, and did not foresee the unlikely alliance with the Ents.
In fairness to the Orc commander, attacking immediately makes sense. To not do so risks more reinforcements coming to Theoden's aid, which in fact happens. The rain loosens bowstrings, which is a much greater problem for the defenders given their higher reliance on the bow for kills. The rain loosens soil, which makes undermining easier should they choose to do that. The rain limits collateral damage from fire-based weapons.
Volleys weren't used that way. There would be archers who couldn't shoot that fast and tired out and archers who could shoot faster but have to slow down for the rest of the unit. They were done in a fire at will type volley
One assumption here that is erronus is that loses on the Ukuk side matter nearly as much as on the human side. Isengard committed as many troops to this one assault as the whole of Rohan was able to muster in Return of the King. Ork armies can replace troops at such a fast rate they afford to take disproportionate loses. This army only needs to win this battle. The next army can win the next one. This is basically what we see in Gondor wherein their forces are worn down over decades while the orcs just out breed them.
Sheltering in Helm's Deep works because the army of Isengard is basically forced to siege it - if they just moved past it, the Rohirrim could use their cavalry to raid Isengard's supply lines; and there's likely not a lot of supply to forage left in Rohan's western countryside, given that it has been raided before and people have fled. Splitting up the army would risk a defeat in detail, and so going for Helm's Deep makes a lot of sense. Forgetting Eomer's army is stupid in any case, but that's a problem the movies invented by differing from the books. Brett Deveraux (a military historian) wrote a lot about the Siege of Helm's Deep on his blog ACOUP, I can only recommend checking his blog series out. There's a lot of depth and complexity to this that (very understandably) is not covered here.
One mistake is the number of Rohirrim, the number of peasants armed was 300, the garrison altogether included 500 of Helms Deep Garrison and 200 from Edoras. The Elvish host was about 1,000
Helm's Deep is a badly designed fortress in the movie - 1: There is a culvert right in the middle of the wall. The wall is too low and is made worse by having no ditch immediately in front of it (which could be filled with water), 3: There is no inner defence behind the wall. 4:The ramp to the main tower gate is straight and of only moderate slope. 5: The gate in the tower is weakly built and quickly require ad hoc reinforcement after a few hits with the ram. 6: There is no provision for defending artillery.
So true! One detail that I love. All the elves have helmets... except for their boss. He is the most important character of them but he doesn't deserve this protection. And let's be honest, the final charge is ridiculous. It makes no sense. Look at this cliff! Horses would break their legs and the uruk-hai would break the charge. No sense. Even when I was 13 I understood that.
The boys will throw rocks from the wall down onto the Uruk Hai. They are shown doing this in the film. In the ent attack on Isengard, the only ent that catches fire appears to be some sort of pine or fir which would have flammable sap. This catches fire first and is extinguished by the flood before much damage is inflicted upon the living wood.
Well, you didn't see them marching with siege equipment like the ladders, ballistae, bombs , casks of bolts, nor crossbows. Just what they were wearing, pikes and banners, so it's safe to assume there could've been some off screen supply wagon train at the rear.
To be fair, in the books it is heavily implied that Saruman, and by extension the Uruk-Hai and Dunlendings are incompetent at warfare. The Witch King in the Return of the King book is portrayed as being much more competent if you know what you’re looking for. For example in the books the Witch King makes an effort to cut the roads to Minas Tirith particularly in the North from Rohan. With a secondary orc army capturing Cair Androst on the north, and barricading the main roads from Rohan, with Theoden only able to arrive in time by taking secret backroads with local guides.
I took the elves arriving when they did due to Elrond and Galadriel's fore-sight. Elrond informing Galadriel weeks or days in advance before the elven host showed up at Helmsdeep. Just my headcannon.
I think the answer to all of these issues is "Jackson's mistake, not Tolkien's". Hardly surprising since Tolkien was a veteran (and junior officer) of WWI while Jackson was a veteran of some campy zombie movies. To elaborate (from memory): - Nearly all the superhero stuff was not in the books. Just extremely competent fighting. - Theoden DID summon his forces, he just knew they wouldn't arrive in time to support him so retreated to Helm's Deep to be able to survive long enough be reinforced, and to give them a huge defensive advantage that would whittle down the attacking forces more than meeting them in the open field. - Yes, the Dunlendings wouldn't have left, especially as Rohan was land stolen off them in the first place. They (except maybe the ones who bred with orcs for him) were not evil people, but Saruman used their historic resentment and presumably the promise of their lands back to get them to fight. - The Rohirrim did have outriders and scouts. - It wasn't elves who arrived at Helm's Deep, it was the Dunedain (Strider's rangers), accompanied by Elrond's sons, and they'd been riding non-stop to keep ahead of the horde. - Pretty sure Saruman had the logistics sorted, as he had been planning this for decades. There's also the possibility he was expecting the Uruks to supplement their supplies with corpses, of which there would be no short supply after the battle broke. They were expendable troops after all. - Someone was leading the Uruks. Strider went out to parlay with them at one point. I'd presume he was talking to an 'officer' of theirs. - On bows, yeah. I grew up doing archery. Honestly holding even a 40lb bow for more than a couple of seconds hurts your fingers and your muscles. Holding makes zero sense. They'd be circulating, one person shoots, steps aside/back/away for the next one, rnocking another arrow as he does, waits his turn, steps up, draws and shoot in nearly one motion, repeats. That way you have a continuous stream of arrows. I think Jackson was thinking of musket volley tactics. You also don't 'fire' a bow. Fire's not involved in the process. - In the books there is an outer dike that only starts to be breached once it's filled with the dead, so maybe the mass meatshield tactic did get carried across. - Pikes make sense since they were going against cavalry, though they probably would have ditched them once they saw the height of the wall. - Never mind charing onto pikes, have you ever tried to take a horse down a hill like that? There's only one way to do it: fucking carefully. Let the horse pick its own way down (ideally by a different, less steep path) and zig zag all the way You'd still be lucky to get to the bottom in 20 minutes withoug triggering a landslide. If you try to charge down that kind of slope: one of two things will happen: 1) The horse will refuse and then either retreat or panic and run/buck you off if you keep telling it to do something so stupid or 2) It will try, and it will fall. The one behind it will fall on top of it. Legs will get broken, riders will get squashed. Those near the rear of the charge with the sense to stop will not be hungry again for weeks.
In fairness to Theoden, it is possible he sent out scouts but they didn't survive to return... or were incompetent. (Doubtful but possible). Maybe the wargs got em?
"It seems nobody competent is leading the Uruk-Hai army!" Well, to be fair, your Imperial Majesty, they were born _practically yesterday!_
He probably arrogantly ignored the advice of the mordor orcs sent to aide him. Those orcs were likely veterans of decades if not centuries of combat, but none were sent to aide the uruks in the films (unlike the books) not even to use experiance to aide the uruks.
69 likes and it will stay like that
Yeah, given how difficult it is to organize a group of 10,000 people I find the Uruk0hai behavior realistic.
"You're ruining a siege - tomorrow!"
Beyond armor a weapons the army will need to consider food, water, (for humans, light sources), communications, scouts, what to do about relief armies, etc.
All those guys with pikes were probably equipped for a field battle against horsemen and had no time to get other weapons.
@Greg Elchert Both Saruman and Sauron were confident that their superior numbers could overrun the smaller force they were up against. But in both big battles, the good guys were well dug in, in their castles.
@@transformersrevenge9 remembering the batle at minas tirith, that battle is more organised, i guess sauron and the witch king have more experience in combat, than saruman or lurtz
Speaking as an archer here: you seem to put too much emphasis on volley-shooting for effectiveness, both in the defense and attack on Helm's Deep and the Gondorians at Osgiliath. Films draw heavily on a modern concept of volley shooting - specifically, the massed volleys from gunpowder line infantry. That sort of synchronised volley shooting is possible with muskets because the troops are trained to load and fire by the numbers, and the impact of a massed volley can break an enemy unit. Massed, synchronised volleys are not good at suppression because there are large gaps between volleys. Additionally, because archers are _not_ trained to shoot by tempo, it's far more difficult to get an archer unit to shoot together in one volley. Nor would a volley of arrows have the same impact as a volley of musket balls. Most of the arrows will miss, those that hit will be mitigated by armour and shields, and you don't get the crumpling wall of dead bodies that will smash a formation.
We have little evidence of synchronised volleys being used in battle. Sources that use the term "volley" don't refer to synchronised shooting, and at best we have sources that describe something that might signal the beginning of shooting (in which the archers would likely all shoot together), but nothing that suggest that archers deliberately timed their shots to be synchronised.
The true effect of massed archers is in _constant_ shooting. Descriptions of battles involving large numbers of archers (such as Agincourt) portray arrows as a "rain" or "storm". This description is more accurate if archers are all shooting at their own pace, naturally staggered as each man picks his own mark, draws and shoots as his condition allows him to. Not a wall of arrows every 10 seconds. The constant whizzing of arrows from continuous shooting will literally push the enemy formation back form the impact of the arrows. Volley shooting is a video game mechanic, not a real life one.
The skirmish at Osgiliath would be a proper depiction of a small-unit battle - the Gondorians are scattered in defensive positions, there is no packed formation of archers that can coordinate their shooting, and they are not shooting at a massed unit on the other side of the river. Each archer is identifying their own target and shooting at their own pace. I don't see anything wrong with this scene from an archer's perspective. This is probably the best deployment of archers in this context, and would have more effective for suppression than volley shooting as a unit, since the targets would not know when and where the arrows will come.
Likewise, the Uruk-hai don't need _volleys_ of crossbows to suppress the walls. They need _continuous_ missiles sweeping the walls. Volleys are _less_ effective at suppression because you have to slow down the rate of shooting so that men are loaded, which gives a bigger gap for the defenders to shoot back.
I wouldn't call the long holds a military command blunder. That's just movies being dumb about how bows work. What _is_ a command blunder is Aragorn ordering a volley to be shot into the breach *while he is standing front of the archers.* That's a good way to get a dozen arrows in the back. That said, there's probably good reason for Aragorn to call a charge into the breach. Remember that only a small contingent of Elves at in this battle (and in book canon, there are none), they have already been loosing arrows from the wall, and Aragorn would probably not be confident that they had enough ammunition to continue suppressing the breach (in the book, Legolas - the only Elf at Helm's Deep - does in fact run out of arrows and fights with his long knives in this stage of the battle). In a page taken from Agincourt, the archers would have joined the melee to turn the tide.
he orders the volley pass him due to how excellent elves are at shooting, seeing as they dont "die" they can train for however long they wish, its why when the old man kills the uruk-hai he responds in elvish since he assumes that well placed a shot MUST be from one of his elves
One minor quibble: crossbows are not conducive to continuous fire and are very likely the origin of the volley fire later used by muskets
@@TheAchilles26 I don't think so. The method of operation is quite different. Muskets have volley fire for several reasons, notably because of the extremely long reloads requiring the unit to hold their fire until the most effective point, in which a single volley can smash the opposing line; otherwise the entire unit is caught with ineffective trickles. Units were trained to load the complicated pieces "by the numbers", so every individual in the unit followed the drills consistently and under fire. The biggest difference, however, is that the musket was the standard weapon for line infantry, while crossbows were a specialised weapon used by auxiliary units against mixed cavalry and infantry with melee weapons and shields and/or armour.
In contrast, crossbows were faster to load (depending on the weight and method of loading), and crossbow units often had assistants who had spare crossbows loaded, so the crossbowman could focus on picking their targets and shooting. It makes less sense for a crossbowman to wait for the entire unit to load when he had a loaded weapon that could bring down a target at will with another ready to go. Given the fewer numbers of crossbowmen in relation to the army, massed volleys would probably be just as unfeasible as with bows.
The "continuous fire" I describe isn't a deliberate act, but simply that constant rain of shooting that naturally happens when combatants fire at will.
Also worth noting that archers don't tend to be as uniform in the bows they use, they don't tend to be uniform in the amount of arrows they can fire, they aren't uniform in how quickly they can fire, and they're not uniform in their ability to fire at distance. Having archers select targets as it suits them is just more practical.
@@NUSensei musket volley fire has to do with the relatively flat trajectory and the inaccuracy of the line infantry. the irregulars (sharpshooters) which were accurate did not do volley fire. having arrows rain down at the furthest range means that if they miss their target then it hits the ground, with a flat trajectory if the shot misses then it might hit one of the people behind the front line guy. the smoke of muskets also make it hard to even pick out targets when everyone is densely packed, which is needed if the troops can't accurately hit a man sized target at range to begin with. of course most battles were not with infantry standing in front of each other like the movies portray, but had men using cover, and at that point they didn't use volley fire either.
In fairness to Theoden, in the book he sends the civilians to Helm's Deep and plans to meet the Urukhai on the field but most of his army is scattered by the Urukhai at the Ford's of Isen, and he is forced to divert to Helm's Deep with the survivors he can gather.
He actually send the to Dunharrow, not Helm's Deep
In the books, the women or children weren't in the Glittering caves and Gimli was killing orcs in there.
@@paulraines9635 That's only the people living close by in the Westfold area. The population of Edoras (at least the valuable ones= were send to Dunharrow.
@@paulraines9635 yes they were. the difference is in the books Rohan is a much bigger country so the civilians fleeing Edoras were going to Dun Harrow while the civilians in Helm's Deep were from Westfold. the implication of the movies was done so that the audience would not get confused so Dun Harrow was not referenced until Return of the King and the folk of Westfold are not mentioned as hiding in Helms Deep (although is possible that the people already in HD were those people)
Big difference is Rohan feels smaller since they reach Helm's Deep on foot after a few days travel while the same time in the book is only done on horseback at a fast pace.
Not to Hems deep but other fortresses,
Theoden then forces Saruman to Attacl Helms Deep by deploying there, or the Uruks would have him cutting their line to Isengard
The pikes make sense when you consider that they were expecting cavalry, as they were facing a culture that had a large mounted contingent.
Pikes are not the best against cavalry. Their flanks are extremely vulnerable and even frontally the pike is vulnerable if its formation is too loose (as stated by many Renaissance pike drill books), what is worse is that the close formaitons needed for pikes to be able to defend against cavalry is vulnerable to infantry and archers, while the loser formaitons needed to fight infantry effectively in melee were vulnerable to cavalry (also mentioned in Renaissance pike drill books).
And even well trained pikes in close formaitons are vulnerable to elite cavalry lancers (who can and did parry the lances if set up in good tight formaitons themselves, see the french-italian wars for a good example).
Pikes need to be well trained and have good lighter infantry and good cavalry on their flanks (ideally infantry with missile weapons to break up formaitons of the charging cavalry, or to scare off missile cavalry. Hence why pike & *shot* became the answer to cavalry not pikes alone).
In the books the army of isengard had only a few pikemen who were important in the battle of the ford's of isen. But had plenty of other troops to support them. Movie isengard leans too heavily into pikes.
While I agree with you, when they arrive at the wall they might as well store them somewhere when they see no cavalry around
@@matthiuskoenig3378 to be fair to the uruk hair pikes, they're not facing muskets, they're heavily armoured, they presumably have contingents of warg riders which we see in the raid where aragorn falls and they have soldiers equipped with sword and shield making them much more mobile.
Pikes could be incredibly useful to pressure formations to move and force the lightly armoured defenders to avoid the breach even if they didn't inflict heavy casualties, no one (horse or human) will willingly run into the sharp pointy sticks.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 sorry my reply might me a bit messy, i'm fucking knackered
@@jamiejamie9549 I am not saying pikes are useless, just that movie uruks lean too heavily into them as depicted on screen. Alteratively armed troops are not seen except in specific circumstances and in limited numbers.
In the books, Gandalf is the one who suggests they go to Helm's Deep. The movies do a disservice to Theoden's character. He comes off as a bit arrogant and petty, which he absolutely is not in the books.
The Urakai aren't there to raid Rohan, they're there to exterminate them. They will attack Helm's Deep because that's where the people are. The idea is to weaken the orcs and then defeat them, which they would not be able to do if they immediately attacked them in open battle, which already happened btw, the battle of Isen Ford where Theoden's son died.
He did say he wasn’t considering book sources and was focusing on the movie version only. But you’re right, the Two Towers film does a real disservice to my boy Theoden
@@11jerans I know, but I think it makes the decision seem a lot more rational when it comes from Gandalf and not from Theoden being stubborn.
haven't seen much of the books but Theoden is a true badass and a great poet
@@11jerans
He's just wanting to explain some good book details that is all. And how they differ a bit.
I feel like the film, thematically wants to set up Theoden's redemption in a wide arc, setting him up as an emotionally devastated monarch, out of touch and not thinking clearly to saving Minas Tirith from Mordor at Peleannor Fields is a cinematic climax fitting for the epic LOTR saga. But I agree it does unfortunately deviate from the source material
At 26:26 you say that the wizards magic is what blinds the Uruk-Kai but it isnt. Its the sun rising behind the riders. During the previous scenes we can even see the light of the sun shining lower and lower into the valley until it reaches the first line of spearmen just before the riders crash into them. Which I would count as a tactical wise decision as Gandalf did plan to arrive at dawn from the beginning.
Gandalf's "cue the sun" powers of amazing timing were established way back in the Hobbit in the Troll scene.
@@Benjamin1986980 "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to."
Timing is one hell of a superpower.
I always thought Gandalf used solar flare there...
Don't forget that these Uruk-hai were literally born within the last couple of weeks, and only armed within the last two. It is unreasonable to expect that they would have developed the ability to work in concert as experienced units might in that time. Frankly, it is a testament to Saruman's ability as a geneticist that they are able to use their equipment effectively at all, presumably acting mostly on the basis of instinct and ingrained magical programming. It is Saruman's fault that they were ordered to advance before having the chance to accumulate experience working in concert, and thus their failure to do so is a reflection on him and not them.
and the pikes were meant for an open battle just in case the defenders of the hornberg rode out to meet them, the siege kit was to destory the wall because saruman predicted correctly they were holed up there
Lol now u mention it!
Maybe he hit capacity and couldn't feed them any more so ordered them to march?
@@sprouts7768 Well we they didn't have nothing but maggoty bread for three stinking days, and hungry uruks tend to get a bit... rambunctious.
Saruman, as a warlock himself, is a bad opportune absent tactician
And on the same note, think Saruman sending them into battle this early is because he wanted to win quickly. If we look at the movies, his window of opportunity is thin, and he used it. He wanted to attack while Rohan was weakened, so he had to march out immediately after Gandalf came and freed Theoden because he didn't want to risk the Rohirim gathering in time and assisting the besieged, which is ironically how the siege ended
I know you said you wouldn't evaluate the motivations of the characters. However, I can say the reckless assault with no long-term plan does seem to justify Theoden's idea of sheltering while the orcs pillage. If he's expecting the orcs to turn on each other and the army discipline to break down and infighting to proceed within days, it makes sense. The army would literally start eating itself if they could just last a week
Basically as orcs do when there's shiny but no meat.
In the book, it's Gandalf's idea and everyone is in agreement that it's a good idea. The orcs' goal isn't to pillage, it's to exterminate Rohan. They attack Helm's Deep because that's where the people are. The Rohirrim had absolutely no chance against the orcs in open battle. The point of going to Helm's Deep was to give them a fighting chance.
@@GeraltofRivia22 I have to agree. Meeting on the open field would only play into the Uruks numerical superiority
@@Benjamin1986980 the Rohirrim actually already tried that and lost. Its almost entirely excluded from the movie, but the Rohirrim under Theoden's son met the orcs at the Battle of Isen Ford and lost, resulting in the death of Theoden's son. So trying to do it again with even less troops against even more orcs would be plains suicide.
The plan to wait out the Uruk-Hai army was not going to work, it would not have collapsed on itself. Normally they do but because Saruman commands them his "power" over them prevents that from happening in such a scale that the whole army would be wiped out by it. Saruman is not Sauron of course and so his "control" over his forces ain't to Sauron's level but he still can do it to some degree. The Dark Lord effect you could call it. It's kind of baked into Orcs since Morgoth- if you get what I mean?
As far as the pikes go, I think Saruman thought his army would fight whatever was left of the Rohan army which is mostly calvary out in the open field. When fighting calvary the pikes would be a lot better. The retreat into Helm’s Deep was a very late development that Saruman had to put together a bomb himself to try and get past the defenses. Saruman had Theodin under mind control, he could have been planning to have the Rohirrum army go into a trap with an army perfectly matched to counter them. But now the army has to put together a very quick plan to siege the fortress.
No fire arrows.
Let that sink it.
No
Fire arrows
This is why it is a masterpiece.
The orcs use fire arrows against the Ents, sorry.
@@GeraltofRivia22 a tactic of desperation when fighting literal monsters made out of wood. I'll accept that
@@GeraltofRivia22 One of the few situations where it acturly makes a small bit of sense. Sure trees don't just woof into flames like that, but it would be more damage than a normal arrow into wood
@@jesperstoringgaard8367 probably not since a fire arrow is quite a complicated device, which has very little armor penetration. Unless these orcs use some special oil or something then ligthing the end of an arrow with fire would be very impractical since as soon as you fire it then the flame would somply puff out. Ever wonder what happens when you blow out a candle? It blows out! It would be no defferent when firing a fire arrow.
Therefore a special type of arrow would have to be made that can keep the fire buring without blowing out when fired. Lindybeige made an excellent video on just this topic and it really shows how impractical fire arrows would be on the battlefield. They might be used on siege engines with some measure of effect, though you would need a lot of fire arrows, since large chuncks of wood simply don't burst into flames when in contact with fire.
@@sebastianhovenas272 I reckon you've watched Lindybeige?
And Sauruman would most likely know that chopping down Fangorn would piss of the ents, so fire arrows might be realy handy for him. So makes sense i would develop and make them.
About the bows, I think a rather good explanation for the early draw is available. Aragorn is commanding their forces. However, Aragorn is used to fighting with Elves especially. Creatures with supernatural grace and stamina. In the Lord of the Rings books and movies elves really are never shown suffering from weather or things like muscle stress. They seem to be able to hold their bows back as if the drain on their stamina is trivial. They do so twice in the movies and once more in the books.
Even though Aragorn is human, he is a different breed of human. A Dúnedain, a kind of people who intentionally breed themselves to have lives and powers more similar to that of elves. He simply might not fully comprehend the limits of his fellow more base humans.
It's more breeding to keep these abilities given to them by the valar rather than something created by breeding (which your comment implies, even if jot your intention)
@@matthiuskoenig3378 Second verse same as the first. When giving explanations of things people are not familiar with I delete unnecessary details like the valar and the loyalty regimes of different human factions blah blah blah.
Like if I was going to explain the Trinity Blood's main character, I'm just going to say, basically a vampire not unlike Blade. Is that precisely true? No. Will you accurately understand his physical and mental characteristics based on that description? Yes. Clarity > Technical Accuracy.
@@reaemishi2278 I disagree, treating people like idiots, and worse giving them false information, is never the answer.
But if want something without the valar? Just say they are preserving an existing difference. Simple while still accurate.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 It is not treating someone like an idiot to reduce the amount of information that is given when that information does nothing to advance the purpose of the communication. Does understanding the motivations of the political structures of that race further the recipient's understanding of that race's physical characteristics?
The answer is no, they could be doing what they do for any reason, but their reasons are not relevant to their outcomes. What is important is that my explanation does not explicitly contradict anything in a more expansive investigation of the facts. It is important to remember that you are taking umbrage with a possible implication of something I said, not something I actually said.
The only one I would treat "like an idiot" would be one who looks for subtext in technical writing. Your car's user manual does not have subtext, as my writing does not. Such things are meant to be read literally.
@@reaemishi2278 you claim you wanted clarity but the implication of what you said does not create clarity.
About foraging:
There is a great account from the Russian-Polish wars in the 17th century, where a polish army of about 17.000 troops besieged Novgorod for almost 3 months, and a company of light polish cavalry was tasked with foraging to provide food for the army. During the second and third month, they foraged in areas as much as 200 miles away from Novgorod, but they actually did manage to keep the entire army fed.
Don't sell horses short, they're REALLY mean in mounted combat. Horses would also maneuver differently, and pouncing would leave the individual warg/rider vulnerable.
It's not as cut and dried, but the point of the different mount capabilities is valid, and a factor that's not delved into.
Some of the things like the archers' long draw time are for cinematic dramatics, and don't work in real life, but work in movies to build tension.
I would also argue that the Uruk Hai are very much an expendable/we have reserves army with a heedless commander in Saruman.
And yeah, with all this silly parts, it's REALLY good.
dont forget than rohan is known for having the best breed and wel ltrained of horses so they are extra extar mean
The loss of the ability to shoot projectiles in a downpour would hurt the defenders far more than the attackers. Also, I get the feeling that Huruk-ai don't get sick, so attacking in the rain would only hurt the humans, so even if the initial assault was repulsed, more humans would get sick and the siege could be concluded more quickly.
Happy to be commenting this sort of content. Regarding the skirmish between the mounted troops: you made the point that the wargs are the most dangerous mount and yet they won the encounter (though barely). Conclusion: the Rohirrim are the most dangerous riders (and rider>mount). Also, Battle for Middle Earth 1 was an awesome game.
The Rohirrim are well armored, and, using the little knowledge of the books I have, are the faction and setting equivalents to housecarls or knights, so they are well trained and brave warriors, riding strong horses, while the warg orcs are undisciplined and bloodthirsty brutes with no armor riding big wolves.
@@thekinginyellowmessiahofha6308 Another thing about the Rohirrim in the skirmish is that unlike the orcs, they have ranged weapons (bows and throwing javelins) and know how to use them from the horseback, giving them another advantage.
The Uruks being otherwise poor military strategists is perfectly explainable by the fact that they’ve literally been alive for a couple months at most. They’ve pretty much only been taught to have been fighters, and for not long at that, and the formations they do pull off like tortoises and pike blocks make sense because they’re relatively simple.
The Uruks bringing their pikes makes sense to me because they literally diverted to Helm’s Deep, they were expecting an open battle so they kept their pikes. The fact there are so many pikes and troops, means that realistically, there wasn’t much Theoden could do. Its either go on the battlefield and die, or hole up inside an extremely defensible position.
A third option however is to basically gather all his forces made up of light or heavy cavalry, flee into the hills, and launch constant, incessant hit and run attacks on the Isengard forces made up entirely of infantry forces, and make heading into the countryside a terrifying experience for the conquering forces. But that would still lead to his country being conquered. Overall, it’s just bad options all around.
27:10
The book actually depicts how Saruman had stored some secretive vats or furnaces that could erupt on his command. Basically, he had stored away fire-mines that would definitely burn wood very quickly, even that of an Ent.
About the uruk-hai. In the films they remarked on their incredible stamina. Also since they eat humans, marching them near starving to a fortress full of basically food. Would be a good way to ensure they try their hardest to get in.
This and the siege of minis tirith are my favorite parts of the films. I love them so much and I can’t wait for the next video.
I believe movies do this stupid "hold" maneuver for two reasons.
1: Dramatic effect
2: Because they think of a bow like a gun and don't think about the actual effort required in using one.
A very common film/TV trope, resulting from the actors being handed what are essentially children's toys.
It's one of Hollywood's forgivable sins against reality.
Our lord and saviour, hos most imperial majesty the KingEmperorPenguin has returned!
in defense of the orcs attacking during the rain it is probably advantageous for them to force the defenders out into the miserable rainy night so that the defenders have to suffer with them.(those pikes are crap for the siege but the were probably great for defending against cavalry while they were marching through the open plains)
I would add, they might be aware that reinforcement might be on it's way
In defense of the Osgiliath scene at 26:44 is is clear that the city is not just some field or regular siege like Helms Deep and is more akin to urban warfare, due to how you can see arrows whizz past the screen the Gondorians are also being shot back at so perhaps taking cover is more favourable to fighting in formations and doing volleys?
In terms of rallying all of your Lords to fight again it's one of those things where it turns out that Isengard has Cavalry but is no match for yours and you have a nation of horse Lords that love horses like their own kin, so well it would take time to rally the men at the same time the fact that Theoden desn't even attempt this in the two towers but then does so in return of the King is definitely a problem. It's especially bad when you look at how Rohan basically has a minutemen style warrior society where there are always hundreds of riders ready to ride at a moment's notice to fight. You could argue that they need to defend their own lands which is a fair argument but the fact that he doesn't even try this is sad and basically only there to build drama. It does have the side effect of making him look stupid.
Minor nitpick, the Uruk Hai carrying pikes makes perfect sense through a country known for its cavalry. Since they don't have a camp set up, what are they going to do with those pikes once you get to Helms Deep? You're gonna hold onto it till you have to go up the ladder!
Outside LoTR Trilogy, the only cinematic siege that´s seams cool enough and stays in my head is the Siege of Jerusalem in Kingdom of Heaven (2005).
I was thinking the exact same thing
South Korea has a couple movies about sieges that I enjoyed; The Great Battle and The Fortress
@@razzamatronic9882 thank you for the suggestion. I'll look for them. 😀
For the time of the attack: I would assume Saruman knew or at least thought that Gandalf wouldn't give up so easily and would fether the Rohirim, so if the Uruks would have waited for the next day to start, the chances would be good Rohan reinforcements are ready and there. In the movie we actually see that Gandalf arrives in the dawn, so imagine if we move the battle to after the night, then the wall of Helms Deep wouldn't even have breached before Gandalf arrives. Saruman wanted to defeat and conquer Helms Deep as fast as possible and had no time to lose
The bright light shining on the Uruk-Hai is not magic, it's the rising SUN. Gandalf said to look for his coming at dawn. The sun is rising over the ridgeline and Gandalf times his charge to take advantage of that moment. As he once said, "a wizard always arrives PRECISELY when he means to". He apparently meant that one quite literally.
Three things: one the pikemen we're there to defend against the Rohan Cavalry. Which we see later when Gandalf charges down the hill, however, they are blinded by the sun light. You are right about the horde needing formations to properly operate this battle, to my knowledge this is the first time they have seen battle. Second the Urikah around the ballistas seem to be there for security, and if I'm not mistaken they probably helped puch the artillery into place. Especially since we see no draft animals, for food, transportation, or medical. Third it seems that they were planning to eat the dead defenders, and their own fallen comrades. Also I think you did a very good job with this video, keep it up.
welcome back!
Unfortunately the audio is extremely low on this video and out of balance, I had to adjust ~30% to the right for the first 5 minutes of the video before it equalizes itself and gets louder.
I would suppose that the uruks have pikes because the army wasn't made to take helms deep it was made to fight rohan, which has a lot of cavalrymen, so the pikes would be very useful on the march there. I'd suppose the better way to show that would be to have a giant pile of pikes behind the Uruk army as they drop them just before starting the assault.
i listened to it without earphones or earbuds or whatever they are called these days, listening to it on my crappy phone’s crappy built in speaker, straight up. Sounded fine to me the whole time. But if it was doing that on your earphones, fair points.
I think a lot of the flaws in the Rohirrum's strategies have to do with the fact they're mostly a cavalry based military, and the Uruk-hai are rather young and inexperienced with logistics (who hasn't taken control of a large army in a videogame just to find out how important and difficult logi is?) and as wise and old as Saruman is I don't think he's every lead whole massive armies before and I also don't think he values the lives of orcs.
Great video! I'll defend the film's logic as best I can because I love it too much so max copium ahead:
Theoden's decision to go to Helm's Deep is a sound one, as it seems like Isengard is already prepped for war while Rohan hasn't even begun to marshal its forces, save for Eomer. It also forces the Uruk-Hai to expend their superior numbers attacking a fortified position, one that is at the end of a narrow valley no less. Its position makes it a death trap for the attackers should any relief force arrive. Indeed in the books going to Helm's Deep is Gandalf's idea for this very reason. Theoden's only mistake is not sending out riders to marshal his own relief force while he hid, as he was able to assemble 6000 riders in the next film at relative speed.
Assuming the enemy would raid and then leave might be sound if the enemy came all the way from Mordor, but Isengard is so close that they're not going to go away any time soon. The Dunlendings are absolutely going to settle the lands because they used to live there. But Theoden only says these things to bolster his men's morale.
Sending riders to Gondor would be a waste of time because Gondor if anything is expecting Rohirrim relief armies, not the other way around. Even if they could send a large army to exterminate Isengard it would take far too long to assemble and get there. Aragorn's been smoking too much longbottom leaf if he's even suggesting this.
The elves are from Lothlorien which is actually quite close to Rohan. Positioning them separately from the men avoids confusion between their commanders, and the elves are essentially on a suicide mission so they take the more vulnerable spot.
I believe the Uruk-Hai attacking immediately is also in the books. They don't seem to want to wait and rest and are trying to speedrun the seige. Perhaps they are aware of how delicate their position is and how undersupplied they are. It is worth noting that Saruman cut many corners to assemble his army as quickly as he did, and that Sauron's army in the next one (at least in the books) planned their advance, encampment, strategies, and logistics much better. Additionally in the book Saruman believes there is a decent chance the One Ring is in Theoden's hands so he's in a rush to try and take it. But in the film he doesn't seem to dwell too much on losing Merry and Pippin so make of that what you will.
The Uruk-Hai assumedly brought so many pikes in the event that the Rohirrim met them in the open field, where they could be used against cavalry. However in the siege there shouldn't be any pikemen anywhere close to the walls where they can't participate. They should be closer to the back in case a relief force arrives. The only time the pikes would be useful is potentially in fighting over the gatehouse, where a phalanx could push the clustered defenders back and allow space for the attackers to enter relatively uncontested. But wouldn't you know it this does not occur.
Aragorn commanded his troops to charge to try to contain the breach in the walls. He only seems to take half his force with him, but we don't see any volleys from the remaining half. It should be noted that the stairs leading up to the fortress are close to the walls, so if the Uruk-Hai are allowed in even under repeated volleys the defenders wouldn't be able to escape. The main criticism is Aragorn absolutely should've ordered a general retreat at once; Theoden shouldn't have had to tell him to do so.
Aragorn and Gilmi's heroics at the causeway are sound as such a narrow space permits them to fight so many. However Theoden allows them no means of escape. Additionally the repairs he makes to the door basically do nothing, as he gives up the gatehouse right after they are made.
If an arrow can break the super-siege ladders then assumedly a sword swipe to the ropes on the hooks should also do the trick. The design seems deeply flawed but if they made Theoden abandon the gatehouse then I suppose they did their job.
In the books the horn is terribly loud and disrupts the enemy for the charge to take place. It doesn't seem to bother the enemy much in the film so it's surprising the charge works at all. Not even one shot of the Uruks covering their ears?
Lastly although the enemy is scattered by Eomer's riders the Hornburg itself (unsuitable for cavalry) is still filled to the brim with Uruk-Hai so it seems like clearing all of them out would be a very long and bloody task, unless they surrendered or something. Maybe they bartered passage in exchange for not butchering all the women and children still in the fortress that they had control over :)
As for flaws in the design of the Hornburg, eh it's a terribly old fort so it's fine.
Dude, Lothlorien is not close to Rohan, like at all, especially to the Hornburg
@@sebastianhovenas272 that’s not what he said. He said that the elves as a separate unit in the battle aren’t that far separated from the men defending the higher walls and the main gate.
The Uruk-Hai having pikes would have been a very fair move by Saruman. Rohan was known for its horsemen and as Gandalf was with them, he would have almost certainly expected for them to attack his forces before they reached the Deeping.
About the food problem with the Uruk-Hai army, I do believe earlier in the film there was a line "Looks like meat's back on the menu boys!" said who I think was an Uruk-Hai, before they all started to cannibalize on each other.
This is going to be directed more at the none book readers.
Going to Helms Deep was the only viable option for Théoden King. In open battle he is heavily outnumbered against an enemy that was tailored equipped to fight a Calvary heavy army, A enemy army The three hunters and Gandalf have seen and got knowledge of be it through observation or battling forces from it. The Uruk-Hai are bred for a single a purpose of destroying the people of Rohan in one sweep, in open field or in Edoras the Rohan forces had no chance, Gandalf would know their desire and purpose since he Knew Saruman and well he can read him now like a book as Gandalf the White. (In the book a fact Aragorn and Gandalf heavily point out to Théoden, who wanted a Pitch battle at the Fords of Isen be it this was due to lack of intelligence about the situation than Ego or stupidity, once realising the situation he knew it was time to hold up in The Hornburg).
Only The Hornburg had the strength and position to provide the needed barriers to make a stand even possible and it had it's own sizeable garrison to boot as well, the civilians were also left in Edoras as well, only civilians at Helms deep in the book were refugees from the Westfold who fled there before Théoden's arrival.
Normally Your would be correct of course about the hiding strategy being just a delay at best, but in this scenario it's the rare exception where the Enemy will come for you even in your castle, since their leader does not want the land or pillage, but annihilation of your people, dynasty and your military first before taking the land as the prize. We must take into factor in this scenario that Sauron wants Rohan eliminated so they can't aid Gondor, and his underling (Movie only) Saruman will focus on that as commanded. Gandalf knows this being well Gandalf and warns Théoden so of this along with Aragorn.
Théoden telling his people they will pillage and Burn is more for morale than anything else, if he told them they're doomed because of 10,000 Uruk-Hai are coming his people would panic and come to battle more scared with the idea their own King thinks they will not win. Aragorn and Legolas should also have never had their conversation among those worried, scared men and children, it is quite an out of character action really for either of them to perform likely a minor slip up of the writers for tension in the film.
Why the Uruk-Hai attack in the rain at night? Well discipline, planning and generally self control ain't traits I would apply to them. they're blood lusted, very obedient order followers, and likely wanted to fight as soon as they arrived. A very typical Orc/Uruk behaviour backed by by the previous film and this one. (In the books the Uruks/Orcs and dunlanders were smarter in their choice of battle and tactics, and it was not raining either If I recall). And this Isenguard army unlike the Mordor armies lacks human soldiers, Orc officers and the Nazgul to keep the troops in line and obey advanced orders. We must remember Saruman made this army fast, and while they got fancy equipment, they're are poorly trained and rely on pure strength and savagery than actual tactics or training to win their fights.
This movie showed how Orcs fight well a proper commander or command system in place, a mass of chaos who know their job but their is no overall thinking or coordination, and we can see these issues are not so present in Mordor's army though. It shows off that cannon fodder mindset use of Orcs. quite well.
For the people out there wondering why the light had such an effect on the Uruk-Hai spear wall; It's because Orcs (Uruk-Hai are still orcs but just bigger and more resistant to the sun) have a ingrained hatred of the Sun and it stings them and is uncomfortable for them to be in due to well events involving the higher beings of this universe. Uruk-Hai are resilient to this but when it's focused by a powerful being like Gandalf their immunity crumbles too it.
Of course a lot of these issues are not present in the Books and the war planning is more deeper and better thought of on both sides in the books.
But Saruman army included humans according to books - Dunlendings.
@@morriganmhor5078 It did include the Dunelendings, and I mention that as well somewhere in my giant comment.
Maybe so many of the Uruk'Kai were armed with long pikes because they were expecting to face off against mostly men on lightly armored horses during their long march. So, the columns of Uruk'kai presented a formidable and costly obsticle to hit and run tactics. Just a guess.
Okay, the thumbnail got me.
I thought it might.
your imperial majesty, while i largely agree with our points that the urruks (not sure if thats the right spelling) plan is slap dash and confused the hoard tatics they deploy do have some advantages.
having their men rush the walls largely prevents the helmsdeep defenders from targeting specific individual such as the cross bow men, ladder carrers or engineers or the bezerker with any degree of accuracy and as we see their seems to be a lack of speailised equpment the urruks brought with them
which means any loss of miss managemet of these equpment like the bombs. could be devastating imagein if the defenders had seen the bombs out in the open they and their carrires could have being pinned down and possible detonated form a far. its a low chance given the bombs are armored to an extent but at the very least the lose of the bombs would have lost likely hundreds of urruk lives in an attempt to reclaim them and as you yourself pointed out their supplies seem extremely limited. if they had any food or water prevesions with them its likely depleted or running very low
the urruks can not afford a lengthy siege they do not seemingly have the temperment for it as they seem to be more aggressive then typical orks or goblins.
though perhaps i would have had the urroks along the bomb path rase their sheilds to protect the few bombs they brought with them as well as the bezerker . i
once the laders had being estaplised id pull the urrks back as the laders seem to be diffcult to dislorge and having the men urruks crowd around them once their role as meat sheild was done is wasteful. doing so would also minimise their loses once the wall fell
but as urrks are extremely instinctual fighters this may be impossible and unreasonable to expect them to behave rationally
i do not have any defancers however for king theoden's actions perhaps he was still not in his right mind after learning of his possession and manipulation and learning that his line was ended. he gave into fatalisem and grief
Uruk hai are not men. They’re not even normal orcs. They’re superhuman. They’re extremely durable and strong, marching for days isn’t that difficult of a task for them. They were magically created after all
Having the chance to watch the movie as it was meant to be due to the recent rerelease of the extended edition at the cinemas. It was so amazing, You get to appreciate details even a home cinema won't provide. Such soldiers nursing each other, orc movement on the other side of Osgiliath despite the distance, villagers on the daily lives, surviving Elves fighting alongside Rohhirim at the Hornburg or even orcs socialising during their free time while Frodo and Sam tried to enter the black gates......plus witnessing Balrog and Ganadlf's duel at the start of the movie on the big screen just hits different :)
You don't really see it when they enter the fort but the elves send are supposed to be around 1000. You notice it more when they are spread out on the deeping wall and behind it.
Of course in the books there never was Elvish help but the Rohan had an army of 2000 not 300+, with a re-enforce of 1000 more coming later.
I am glad to see you back again this was another great video and analysis with good humor.
On to the castle of Helm's Deep itself it has alot of design flaws and wasted defending potential as pointed by other UA-camrs like Shadiversity and many others when you look it up. Helm's Deep's designs could have been alot better and made into a real efficient defending fortress then the too simple depiction design in the films.
When it comes to tactics, strategies, and the circumstances surrounding military decisions of the war by the leaders I think JRR Tolkien had a higher level of extensive knowledge when it came to setting up the battles that would take center stage in his narrative. For instance there is alot more higher intelligent decisions made by Theoden and Saruman when it came to dividing and setting up forces and having external fortifications established. I still like the movie battle but book commanders make alot more reserve and strategic decisions and the reasoning circumstances surrounding them. Like the battle at the river and the external fortifications at Helm's Deep.
If I may divert the topic of Helm's Deep to my analysis of Return of the King book's setting circumstances. The battle of Minas Tirith in films has a bit more set up but it's not as concrete as the book version of the siege.
In the book seige Sauron's commanders actually make some pretty logical average decisions like securing the roads to Minas Tirith and sending smaller armies to garrison the flanks of the main seige and preventing immediate reinforcements and counter attacks to aid the city.
Though I would say one problem Sauron doesn't do is that he didn't expand the front lines just a bit more due to how many reserves he really had. The seige alone is hinted that there were about almost a hundred thousand present on Sauron's side comprised of orcs, uruks, easternlings, harad, and maybe even some of his higher rank agents and servants like the Black Numenoreans were present managing the grand assembled host. The siege lasted three days and in my perspective I think this host may have been centralized into a single region just a bit too much. I would have adviced dividing forces a bit more and dragging the siege to paralyze the kingdom of Gondor and Rohan's ability to retaliate then just securing the flanks and roads.
Don't get me wrong the strategic decisions made in the book are far superior then the movie's but pretty average tactics to a regular logistical military commander. There could have been more potential with the amount of resources Sauron's forces had compared to Gondor's at this time.
The Corsair's raids on Gondor's ports were smart but their could have been more they could have been done to make it even more severe.
Lore of the Rings did great presenting the battle tactics and describing the setting circumstances leading up to the battles themselves. Check him out he's very good.
By the way 13:20 was very hilarious and true of what would likely take affect as a long term consequence.
Well according to Darth Gandalf the Mordor army directly assaulting Minas Tirith was about 60,000 strong (though this is by know means canon, just an edjucated guess by him). His reasoning was that since the mordor armies were defeated by the much smaller (yet not small) forces of the west then the army woulden't be overwhealmingly large, though 60,000 is still a lot
@@sebastianhovenas272
I remember that though it's been a while since I last watched that video.
The wiki I researched on recently seemed to claim there was over 70,000 orcs and 20,000 men on Sauron's side.
Though I believe Gondor's numbers are far too small.
to be fair about a few things
-Theoden did order a watch on the surround and was focused on prepare the defenses.
-Gondor was dealing with the attack on Osgiliath, and it doesnt help that they were under the rule of Denethor who is a whole 'nother can of worms
-By fleeing to helms deep, Theoden was forcing the enemy to come to him, thereby dictating the terms of the battle, which gave them an advantage, if only small.
You’re one of my favorites KEP. Keep up the good work.
Amazing Breakdown. Very refreshing to hear your opinions on these battles. I learned a lot
It's great they brought Boromir back to describe how bows work at 17:10
Just throwing it out there, a video breaking down the book's version of the battle would be very interesting. Especially as a contrast to the films version.
It must be pointed out that Saruman being quite a long way around the bend from sane by that time is fairly well established. Military problems generally begin at the top and filter down, as in so many other areas of life.
My take on the blowing up the wall while your own troops are there; orcs, even Uruk-Hai are fairly disposable; they receive only basic armour and training but are every effective against Men because they are practically wild animals with swords and armour; they make up for the lack of skill with brute strength and an element of psychological warfare, and the action of blowing up the wall is put of that same psychological tactic.
The Uruk-Hai far outnumber the defenders so equal number of losses is a much smaller percentage of the overall force, but more importantly it's the message it sends; the Uruk-Hai will blow up it's own troops to breach the walls, and if they'll be that reckless with the lives of their own troops just to get inside the fortress, what will they do to the defenders and civilians inside... by killing a few hundred Uruk-Hai they can almost break the defenders morale (And we do see this as well).
You also stoke the blood-lust of the Uruk-Hai; they see they have breached the wall, and so will be far more enthusiastic to get inside to fight, and quickly swarm the remaining defenders, which is probably where Orc armies are most effective.
i had no idea that ancient war horses or medieval war horse to trained to also kick, trample, and bite. Fascinating! Makes sense. I wonder if there is a standalone history video about ancient or medieval war horses talking about all that?
Rain makes bows less effective, which hurts the humans and elves more than the orcs.
That is a myth. You wax bow strings to keep them from being damaged by moisture and to keep them from fraying. Wet bowstrings do not impact their performance.
@Rob O multiple historical sources cite it as happening, you're erroneously projecting the qualities of modern bowstrings onto medieval ones
@@TheAchilles26 There are mentions of archers using animal fat, or tallow, to maintain their strings. Tallow is what most candles were made from as beeswax was very expensive. The word wax was sometimes used for tallow as both were used for candle making and interchangeably for other products.
The only historical source I know of that mentions wet bowstrings is from the battle of Crecy in reference to the Geonese crossbowmen in the French army. It said that their strings were wet from marching in the rain which is why they didn't work. That is a fallacy. No one, especially professional mercenaries, marched with their weapons strung. You strung them before battle. The account is also an excuse from the French side because the real reason the crossbowmen were ineffective was that they were not allowed to rest before being deployed, were not allowed to retrieve their pavises from the baggage and had to advance uphill facing into the sun. Also crossbow strings are very different than bowstrings. It was also mentioned that the English archers kept their strings under their hats to keep them dry. This was standard practice not something unique to Crecy. You want to keep the string dry to preserve it when not in use but it doesn't correlate to not using it in the rain.
Most bowstrings in the Middle Ages were made in Flanders. The Flemish bowstring was famous throughout Europe and their workshops dominated the market for hundreds of years. The Flemish were also England's ally and supported them during the Hundred Years War. It is known that a wax and resin mixture was used in the process of making the bowstring so it comes already waxed.
The Battle of Towton, during the War of the Roses, was fought in a blizzard. The only reported effect of the weather on the archery was from the wind causing one side's arrows to not travel as far and the other's going farther, no mention of the effect of the snow on the bowstrings.
The only affect of rain on archery I can find is that it soaks the fletchings making the arrows less accurate and reducing range. If you have actual sources that mention how rain damaged bowstrings please list them as I would like to see them.
The extra troops standing around the ballista are there to pull the ropes and raise the main ladders.
and with the rain at the siege of helm deep the mud will be passchendaele levels of horrific
Indeed. Although to be fair, it seems like the ground directly outside Helm's Deep is mostly gravel.
@@kingemperorpenguin1 tht mass of pike um men reminds me of a 400 yard patch of gravel at Paris Island when I was there turned into a quagmire when the 2 blocks men in full kit head of my block went through it. And pike men blocks in the 15 and 1600 didn't fight in the rain or right after it rained or at least they didn't in the battles I have read about them
For the sake of nerding out, I don't think attacking in the rain in this scenario is that big a deal for a few reasons, 1) if it hampers bowstrings then that works on the defenders too, who have an archers' advantage in position and skill (elves), 2) they would have no idea when the rain would stop, which could mean waiting for the ground to get worse before attacking (the rain didn't seem to last long at all anyway) 3) logistics aside (which just aren't mentioned, so maybe there's a baggage train in the back that wasn't included in a shot because it's not as visually scary as the army itself) it may be better to attack sooner if you think a relief army may come (which did in fact arrive), 4) the ground seems rocky and therefore not nearly as muddy to hamper siege equipment (the only wheeled equipment not just carried by hand anyway were a couple ballistas), 5) do Uruk-Hai GAF about getting sick? and wouldn't that apply to the defenders as well?
well the strategy of hiding in Helm's deep would work if they had the time to do a scorch earth policy and get as much supplies in Helm's Deep.
Even in the books it was a bit off that Rohan's main army weren't involved just those from Edoras and survivors of the Battle of the Ford, when it took less than a week for 10,000 soldiers to be mustered to Dunharrow. Yet only around 2 or 4 thousand were involved in the fight with Saruman. Movie made a little sense that Theoden being controlled would have prevented Rohan's army from mustering after his son was killed but even after he recovered didn't seem to want to rally his forces but took the city's civilians closer to where the orcs where instead of sending them to Eastward like he did in the book.
King Theoden's host at Dunharrow numbered 6,000 at the most
26:17 Are we not going to comment on the incline of that hill and how those horses would not be able to fully gallop down it without tumbling?
How does everyone miss this?
Great Video, and I'll be sure to check out your Family books. The volume seems a little off though. The UA-cam ads nearly blew my ear drumbs! cheers
what do you mean there is no food? there are a bunch of tasty elves and men on those walls! not to mention, you have soldiers to spare considering its 3300 vs 10000. As an Uruk, you aren't very picky :P...unless you've had nuthin' but maggo'y bread fir three stickin' days!
With all due respect your Imperial Majesty the Uruks bringing pikes actually makes sense given that the Rohirm are largely a cavalry based army.
Saruman the White's greatest weakness: Logistics.
The battle of Helm's Deep took place during a rainy night for cinematic reasons. The darkness makes the orc army look more threatening. They are some what chaotically arranged to reinforce their villainy.
Orcs attacked at night in the books too. Remember orcs and uruks have better night vision than humans.
The rain is just happenstance in universe. But meta wise helps set the mood.
If I recall from my copy of "The Lord of the Rings: Weapons and Warfare - An Illustrated Guide to the Battles, Armies and Armor of Middle-Earth", By Chris Smith with a Forward By Christopher Lee (A Military Sourcebook they released in 2003 to show off prop photos and explain military things within the universe of the movies), The Uruk-Hai's use of Pikes and proximity to the walls had some use...chiefly in that the pikes had a hook on them that helped push the siege ladders up...That said, there's still far too many pikes for that to make sense, same with the mosh pit in front of the walls (If we're being charitable, hiding the sappers setting up explosives?).
Also surprised you didn't mention the Uruk-Hai Berserkers riding the smaller ladders up. As you can imagine from the term berserker, those Uruks were blood drunk at the start, carrying big 2-handed swords, and wearing little more than Helmets (With the intoxicant smeared inside of it) and Loincloths.
Obviously the video is based on the movies, but for sure after reading the books and experiencing the events on a more first-hand role thanks to Lord of the Rings Online it definitely felt strange some of the choices they made. Théoden DID rally his forces, but Eeomer and the forces of several other large houses were fighting on the western front and needed to be called back. You definitely get a better sense of scale of things as you progress deeper through the Riddermark, helping to fight a losing battle as each major house fails in protecting their own lands and must retreat to Edoras.
The SCALE of Edoras is also, in my opinion, shamefully done in the movies after experiencing it differently. It looks like a small hilltop hovel compared to the large and open city with a massive Hall sitting at its hilltop.
A New Video? Great!
Hope you and everyone reading has a great Day!
Some corrections: The dark rainy clouds come with the Orks, because they don't like the sunlight. The Uruk-hai have less problems with that (they can be in the sunlight at all without cowering in fear) but are still hindered by it, which is shown when the riders attack (they aren't only blinded by the light, they have a more visceral reaction to it, thus losing pretty much all effectiveness with the lances/pikes/halberds they use). That is a consistent thing with Tolkien (even though it is not explained here, but shown and sometimes talked about in the films).
The siege went on for more than one day, you just can't see the passing of one day because of the dark clouds, Gandalf arrived at the first light of the FIFTH morning.
The Rohirrim pretty much at no point in time use longbows. They are very clearly and pretty much always shown to use shorter rider bows (like what the Mongols, Huns or Hungarians used). Those are completely different to what an english longbow is. Actually only the Elves and Dunedain are shown to wield something that is a longbow, but that doesn't mean it must be an english one.
The elves are shown to be able to hit the weak spots of the armour, for them it's simply a fact of knowing where to shoot, they will hit. That's why Legolas tells the other elves around him where to shoot, he has more experience with the Uruk-hai.
And yes, Theodens decisions lack all the information that is given in the book and looks a lot more foolish in the films, but in the end was the right decision, because there is no way they would have defeated that Uruk-hai army in the open field.
One important thing I forgot: Most if not all things Theoden publicly said was purely to raise the morale of his men and give them some hope. He knows the situation better than anyone advising him but needs to show his men that hey can win this fight, even though he is sure they won't. You can see it in all of his interactions.
I did give a critique on the volley fire but I dont want to make it sound like I disapproved of the whole video. It was one tiny point but I dont want it to get confused, I loved this video! As I do all of your videos and have agreed with probably all your other points in all your critiques. You clearly know what your talking about and always have the notifications on for this channel
Regarding the rain matter at 14:00 I think it actually does make sense for the Uruk-hai to attack now because they force those conditions upon their foes. I doubt Uruk-Hai can get sick, but the soldiers on the wall sure can. Also while the Uruk-Hai certainly do have crossbows, but it doesn't seem like they have a lot and the rain is going to hurt the elves and Rohirim archers much more.
Any military historian or anyone with archery experience would tell you that volley fire with archers is pointless. Its much more effective and efficient to free fire. Difderent archers will having varying strengths or accuracy and forcing people to hold their bolstering decreases accuracy and tires the archer out quicker.
It's better to just give the order to release when the enemies are in range, then command to change targets, focus or cease as and when.
Excellent video your majesty, glad to see these videos!
The Wargs are also supported to be intelligent as well, making them even more dangerous
Since orcs are not very selective when it comes to food, my guess is their provisions would have been replenished by the corpses of men and orcs slain in battle, aswell as any captured people. I could even imagine the orcs were kept hungry deliberately to make them more bloodthirsty (Uruks aren't human and are quite sturdy from what I remember, so they might not be affected in the same way by hunger as we are).
13:34 Elves move very quickly on foot. In Rings of Power (which Twitter reliably informs me is the most Tolkien thing ever), Celebrimbor walks from Eregion to Khazad-Dum and back in what seems like a leisurely afternoon stroll. Doesn't even bother to change out of his fancy clothes or bring a snack for the road. Now imagine what properly-equipped Elvish soldiers marching to battle at full speed could accomplish, it's no surprise they can show up at a moment's notice.
The Siege of Candia lasted just 21 years. Logistics is pretty important in sieges.
How does this not get more views? This was great entertainment!
Small mistake but Haldir brings 500 elves to Helm's Deep not 100 it would have been impossible to defend the deeping wall with 100 elves
Compared to the logistical and organizational errors on Saruman's part that you described, this is a small thing. However, it seems that He of Many Colours sent the whole of his cavalry (The worg riders) on that pointless attack on the refugee column heading to Helm's Deep. Not only would it have been better to raid and harass the civilians to slow them down and pick off some of their guardians, but by squandering all of his cavalry, he left his main force vulnerable to the same sort of campaign. Sending a long, lumbering column of heavy infantry through hostile territory of an enemy renowned for their superb cavalry is a good way to get bled and worn down by hit and run attacks. If the Uruk Hai army had a logistics train, it would have been easy for a more mobile enemy to pick apart over the long march. In fact, no one on the Rohan side seems to have thought of this, but it's never a good idea to plan on your opponent being incompetent.
25:10
About the ladders being shot by ballistas at the walls, I've seen similar contraptions being used in ancient China, but it was more like a siege tower with ballistas capable of shooting some sort of giant ramp
Actually, in regards to the pikes, they have them for two reasons: they were expecting to fight cavalry on the way to Helm's Deep, and if you look closely in some scenes, they use the unique way the spearpoints are designed to actually assist in pushing the ladders upwards.
However, beyond that, I do agree that the pikes would largely be useless up until the walls of the keep are breached.
I am glad to see you covered this battle finally.
There are some things I agree on and some things I disagree.
I disagree with crossbow mass volleys for 2 reasons:
1: Bows reload faster than crossbows, allowing for uncontested volleys from the defenders inbetween crossbow volleys, also increases the chances the enemy will take cover and not get hit.
2: Massed crossbow fire will increase instances of multihits, with fire at will some are shooting while others are still loading and therefore can't hit the same target twice
The massed troops is a good idea, having them around in a world where arrows won't go through 1 target and hit the guy behind them these guys provide consealment, making important soldiers hard to see in the swarm and cover, absorbing arrows meant for the engineers/ladder bearers.
The pikes I half agree, in the climb they would be worthless but could be decent if the sappers destroy the wall as their long reach would allow them to attack anybody running to plug the gap and potentially create a foothold in the breach for others to enter.
The rain I agree, rain would make climbing ladders harder due to it being slippery, make the ground harder to advance on as it turns to mud, make explosives harder to ignite, only defense for that is as you said the weakened string, given that 25+% of the garrison being Elves, known for archery more so than their melee skills that could really weaken the defenders.
There's a brief scene shown of an Elf being run through by an Uruk's pike when Aragorn leads the charge into the breach.
I do think that what had been done pretty well in this movie, militarily speaking, was the way Faramir and his Ithilien Rangers handled themselves during the ambush. They were sited to different spots of high ground which overlooked the pass that the Haradrim and their mumakil would have been forced to take to reach Mordor as part of the invasion of Gondor. They used their bows to inflict long-range damage against the Haradrim force, causing it to lose any cohesion and to stop it from making an effective response against their attack. Furthermore, Faramir and the rangers were able to panic a mumakil, sowing further confusion amongst the enemy host, which meant that their morale would be shattered and the Haradrim would be less inclined to fight for Sauron any further, which meant less men for Gondor to contend with during the climatic Gondor campaign.
That titanic nod was great bravo!
To an extent, the Uruk Hai tactics were solid. I mean, when you come down to it, they were marching on a fortress manned by only 300 men. They invested in Pikes expecting the Rides of Rohan, and they were not trying to fight a long campaign in Rohan. The goal was extermination, not conquest. With the addition of the elven archers, and especially the flank of the Rohirrim with Gandalf, there were factors in the fight they could not have accounted for.
As to rations.... they're cannibals. Their dead are the food. ("Meat's back on the menu, boys!" -The Two Towers)
This was an excellent video! If you do a military analysis on Return of the King, I'll be back...
Love you going back to your roots, man!
The lack of logistics almost makes sense, Saruman might know nothing about how armies work as this is his first one. Previously he only had small raiding forces like the one led by Lurtz.
As for other siege movies, it's obviously not nearly as good, but I enjoyed the siege at the end of Jack the Giantslayer and would be amused to hear your take.
as for the lack of logistics, it also makes sense if you consider that Saruman did not really expect a battle. He expected his troops to quickly massacre the remaining Rohirrim. At this stage in the story, Saruman likely already had his eyes set on his next targets:
- Attacking Gondor while it was preoccupied with Mordor to find the ring
- using the ring and his control over Gondor and Rohan to challenge Sauron
Ultimately Saruman just underestimated Rohan, and did not foresee the unlikely alliance with the Ents.
In fairness to the Orc commander, attacking immediately makes sense. To not do so risks more reinforcements coming to Theoden's aid, which in fact happens. The rain loosens bowstrings, which is a much greater problem for the defenders given their higher reliance on the bow for kills. The rain loosens soil, which makes undermining easier should they choose to do that. The rain limits collateral damage from fire-based weapons.
Six months? Ha! The siege of Ceuta took 26 years!
(Look it up.)
Volleys weren't used that way. There would be archers who couldn't shoot that fast and tired out and archers who could shoot faster but have to slow down for the rest of the unit. They were done in a fire at will type volley
Awesome, best content on youtube
One assumption here that is erronus is that loses on the Ukuk side matter nearly as much as on the human side. Isengard committed as many troops to this one assault as the whole of Rohan was able to muster in Return of the King. Ork armies can replace troops at such a fast rate they afford to take disproportionate loses. This army only needs to win this battle. The next army can win the next one.
This is basically what we see in Gondor wherein their forces are worn down over decades while the orcs just out breed them.
Sheltering in Helm's Deep works because the army of Isengard is basically forced to siege it - if they just moved past it, the Rohirrim could use their cavalry to raid Isengard's supply lines; and there's likely not a lot of supply to forage left in Rohan's western countryside, given that it has been raided before and people have fled. Splitting up the army would risk a defeat in detail, and so going for Helm's Deep makes a lot of sense.
Forgetting Eomer's army is stupid in any case, but that's a problem the movies invented by differing from the books.
Brett Deveraux (a military historian) wrote a lot about the Siege of Helm's Deep on his blog ACOUP, I can only recommend checking his blog series out. There's a lot of depth and complexity to this that (very understandably) is not covered here.
One mistake is the number of Rohirrim, the number of peasants armed was 300, the garrison altogether included 500 of Helms Deep Garrison and 200 from Edoras. The Elvish host was about 1,000
Helm's Deep is a badly designed fortress in the movie - 1: There is a culvert right in the middle of the wall. The wall is too low and is made worse by having no ditch immediately in front of it (which could be filled with water), 3: There is no inner defence behind the wall. 4:The ramp to the main tower gate is straight and of only moderate slope. 5: The gate in the tower is weakly built and quickly require ad hoc reinforcement after a few hits with the ram. 6: There is no provision for defending artillery.
So true!
One detail that I love. All the elves have helmets... except for their boss. He is the most important character of them but he doesn't deserve this protection.
And let's be honest, the final charge is ridiculous. It makes no sense. Look at this cliff! Horses would break their legs and the uruk-hai would break the charge. No sense. Even when I was 13 I understood that.
The boys will throw rocks from the wall down onto the Uruk Hai. They are shown doing this in the film.
In the ent attack on Isengard, the only ent that catches fire appears to be some sort of pine or fir which would have flammable sap. This catches fire first and is extinguished by the flood before much damage is inflicted upon the living wood.
Well, you didn't see them marching with siege equipment like the ladders, ballistae, bombs , casks of bolts, nor crossbows. Just what they were wearing, pikes and banners, so it's safe to assume there could've been some off screen supply wagon train at the rear.
To be fair, in the books it is heavily implied that Saruman, and by extension the Uruk-Hai and Dunlendings are incompetent at warfare. The Witch King in the Return of the King book is portrayed as being much more competent if you know what you’re looking for. For example in the books the Witch King makes an effort to cut the roads to Minas Tirith particularly in the North from Rohan. With a secondary orc army capturing Cair Androst on the north, and barricading the main roads from Rohan, with Theoden only able to arrive in time by taking secret backroads with local guides.
I took the elves arriving when they did due to Elrond and Galadriel's fore-sight. Elrond informing Galadriel weeks or days in advance before the elven host showed up at Helmsdeep. Just my headcannon.
I think the answer to all of these issues is "Jackson's mistake, not Tolkien's". Hardly surprising since Tolkien was a veteran (and junior officer) of WWI while Jackson was a veteran of some campy zombie movies. To elaborate (from memory):
- Nearly all the superhero stuff was not in the books. Just extremely competent fighting.
- Theoden DID summon his forces, he just knew they wouldn't arrive in time to support him so retreated to Helm's Deep to be able to survive long enough be reinforced, and to give them a huge defensive advantage that would whittle down the attacking forces more than meeting them in the open field.
- Yes, the Dunlendings wouldn't have left, especially as Rohan was land stolen off them in the first place. They (except maybe the ones who bred with orcs for him) were not evil people, but Saruman used their historic resentment and presumably the promise of their lands back to get them to fight.
- The Rohirrim did have outriders and scouts.
- It wasn't elves who arrived at Helm's Deep, it was the Dunedain (Strider's rangers), accompanied by Elrond's sons, and they'd been riding non-stop to keep ahead of the horde.
- Pretty sure Saruman had the logistics sorted, as he had been planning this for decades. There's also the possibility he was expecting the Uruks to supplement their supplies with corpses, of which there would be no short supply after the battle broke. They were expendable troops after all.
- Someone was leading the Uruks. Strider went out to parlay with them at one point. I'd presume he was talking to an 'officer' of theirs.
- On bows, yeah. I grew up doing archery. Honestly holding even a 40lb bow for more than a couple of seconds hurts your fingers and your muscles. Holding makes zero sense. They'd be circulating, one person shoots, steps aside/back/away for the next one, rnocking another arrow as he does, waits his turn, steps up, draws and shoot in nearly one motion, repeats. That way you have a continuous stream of arrows. I think Jackson was thinking of musket volley tactics. You also don't 'fire' a bow. Fire's not involved in the process.
- In the books there is an outer dike that only starts to be breached once it's filled with the dead, so maybe the mass meatshield tactic did get carried across.
- Pikes make sense since they were going against cavalry, though they probably would have ditched them once they saw the height of the wall.
- Never mind charing onto pikes, have you ever tried to take a horse down a hill like that? There's only one way to do it: fucking carefully. Let the horse pick its own way down (ideally by a different, less steep path) and zig zag all the way You'd still be lucky to get to the bottom in 20 minutes withoug triggering a landslide. If you try to charge down that kind of slope: one of two things will happen:
1) The horse will refuse and then either retreat or panic and run/buck you off if you keep telling it to do something so stupid or
2) It will try, and it will fall. The one behind it will fall on top of it. Legs will get broken, riders will get squashed. Those near the rear of the charge with the sense to stop will not be hungry again for weeks.
In fairness to Theoden, it is possible he sent out scouts but they didn't survive to return... or were incompetent. (Doubtful but possible).
Maybe the wargs got em?
To be fair if one is a cannibal you always have food with your army