The Last Priest on Earth was right. And Big E Saw that priest in Lorgar. Which i think Haunted him and made him lash out in Denial against his own son as if he was his enemy.
A little yeah. But he meant well and made the message as clear as possible without actually harming him or his legion. It even worked for a while actually, they were doing amazing until the Chaos thing
But it took many defenseless innocent lives. All who’s only crime was following Lorgar’s apostasy. The Emperor’s war on religion lead him to sin against his own people. And that sin gave rise to a even worse apostasy.
not really the emperors only mistake was not killing Erebus and lorgars dad after this if he did lorgar may have been broken enough to be what the emperor needed@@JohnDoe-ly9sq
@ironduke5058 just to be clear they were doing the chaos thing like 12 minutes after that conversation the entire Legion went into lock down accomplishing nothing until lorgar emerged a semi chaos worshiper from meditation
If big E hadn't gone scorched earth, and humiliated Lorgar, probably even played into the hole divinity a little, or just sat down with him and explained WHY.
@Tigran-Abazyan You know, Big E could explain to Lorgar WHY he is not a God. Lorgar, a little bit ironic, can understand rational points. His high figure, his Father, his God,couldn't even explain it to Lorgar. I mean more just "I am not a God" words. Big E doesn't give answers to him, nor to humanity. "Why we fight? What is your masterplan,Father? Why Warp is dangerous?" P.S Sorry for low lvl. of English.
Him and Magnus were probably the most avoidable losses. They wanted to work with the Emperor but were pretty much forced to do otherwise. The same can’t be said for the rest of the traitors.
Let's be honest, Big E is the biggest hypocrite, who says, "I'm not a god," while being adorned with gold, and who's psyker ability is only second to Tzeech. And who's knowledge is more vast than even the brightest of the Mechanicus. He is able to slay countless lesser daemons with but his presence alone, and can match blows from daemon princes and greater daemons. He claimed not to be a god, and yet he continues to carry himself in a way befitting one. He wished to destroy religion, and ended up making the biggest religion the galaxy has ever seen. He was a god trying to pretend to be a man, but couldn't help but parade in a god like way.
you don't have to agree with lorgar, but you have to admit that in this he points out some pretty good faults and hypocrisies with the emperor's tyrannical behavior
Lorgar has been memed on by certain parts of the community, and some of it is well earned, but this shows a more human side to the character. You really feel for the guy, and it causes you to give the emperor's actions some pause. The man claims he isn't a god to Lorgar, but when the Mechanicum calls him the omnisiah, he doesn't bother to correct them. Additionally, as Konrad said in Despair and Hope, Lorgar was punished for his blind devotion and zeal, but that same level of blind devotion is also required in embracing the "Imperial Truth."
Exactly. He claims faith is "Illogical" but Jahghati flat out warned Malcador one day, people were gonna be pissed off when they saw how many lies the Imperial "Truth" was built on.
We can all agree that Lorgar has 3 problems, called: Erebus, Kor Phaeron and Emperor. Seriously, he doesn't deserve all the crap he gets and i hope we will get a mini of him in his current stupidly powerful form. Everyone joke about him getting defeated by Warp mutated Corax and, fair enough, he was defeated, but he was throwing punches like never before. He wasn't kidding when he said that he isn't the same person from Ishtvan.
@@Artemisarrowzzyou are so damn right, especially because, rumors has it that Volkmar the Grim is a direct descendant of Sigmar through a illegitimate child. Imagine Lorgar as Grand Theogonist.
@@giacomoromano8842 I think Lorgar is even designed after him, but I could be wrong. I guess it was too awesome and thus GW had to turn everyone into full dumbasses because mah atheist movement from the 2000s
@@randomcenturion7264lol we were thinking the same. "Damn right I am, Lorgar, my beloved son. Now gather your brothers, we have chaos to bonk" Lorgar becomes the first Grand Theogonist, preaching with fondness about his not-a-psychopath father, accepting that the Empire is not perfect, but its his father legacy and he will die before letting chaos destroy it.
More like willful ignorance to me. He wanted a god to worship, but it didn’t matter to him what those gods required of him. He is a slave, pure and simple.
Some of these quote go hard. “He preaches reason yet acts in anger” “A god who fears his reflection in the eyes of his sons and daughters” Man Lorgar fucked everything up, but he was hitting Emps with truth here
Lorgar was cooking harder than Nurgle when he made the Plague of Unbelief. Every word he spoke was true. Don't approve his methods, but approve his message, and I pray for him to come back to mankind only to pimpslap the Man-Emperor and tell him he's a better person dead on the Golden Throne than he ever was in life.
I like how the main argument of Lorgar belief in the Emperor's divinity is how over the top he is as a whole. And you can hear how fed up he his with Big E at that point.
A lethal combination of arrogance and short sightedness. All of Big E's power, squandered by the will behind it. After all; Who, but a god, could FUBAR something so completely?
Your best serious work yet in my humble opinion. The traitor primarchs are on average more interesting than the loyal ones, so I’ll die on that hill, though probably not alone, it might be quite crowded in fact.
I agree with you on the account of Konrad, Perturabo, Magnus, and Lorgar. Can't quite agree with you on some of the rest. Fulgrim was just an arrogant kanker sore from day one, Angron likely would have rebelled against the emperor even if he was allowed to keep his gladiator brothers on account of the Butcher's Nails, Mortarion was a giant hypocrite, Alpharius' reasons were convoluted at best, and Horus' fall from what I heard wasn't much better.
@@ninjat-rex7472 I personally don’t find Fulgrim and Angron that interesting either. A bit one note to me, but at least Angron has a really interesting backstory. When it comes to Mortarion I like him and found his primarch novel one of the better ones. Regardless wether a character is a hypocrite or some other negative trait doesn’t necessarily have any bearing on if I find them interesting or not, quite the opposite often. As to Alpharius, I don’t really know, all I know is I love the alpha legion and have yet to read a boring book set in 30k involving them. Also since everyone in the legion is pretty much Alpharius and behave as a giant symbiotic sneaky hydra I guess liking the legion means I like Alpharius Omegon as well. My favorite is definitely Perturabo, closely followed by Lorgar who is however written with different amounts of quality given the many authors.
There is but only a million or so space marine in an empire of trillions and trillions of humans. combine that with how not every single space marine chapter is strictly atheistic like during the great crusade (Looking at the Black Templars), also the Astartes are precision spec ops units, more or less, it is the Guard that is shouldering the bulk of the task of fighting the enemies of the Imperium.@Tigran-Abazyan
All Lorgar wanted was to lead his people under the banner of faith, love and community. While what he did was wrong in the eyes of scientific progress, it would've compelled the people of the Imperium to have other outlooks on life rather than follow the guidelines of a man who exudes so much wisdom and knowledge, yet is so incredibly hypercritical that he would rather subjugated millions to an unnecessary death than set his own son aside for but a moment to explain why he desires a secular empire. The Primarchs were meant to be his generals in the Crusade, and while some may have met a fate worse than death, the lies of the Emperor still lead them down the path of damnation.
im very sure the emperor did but lorgar still called him a god even becoming secretive about it and what lie did he tell the chaos "gods" arent gods their dependent beings bound to creation and require the support of mortal beings they arent gods
Virgin E: "Nnooooo! Secularism is the way!" Chad Sigmar: "Yeah, I'm a God. Chaos sucks, some of the other Gods are pretty cool too, Nagash can get Fucked though."
@@randomcenturion7264 "You are correct, my son. Also, I have no other plan or ulterior motive than hitting chaos very hard with my warhammer, because time has proven that hitting chaos, and not being a duplicitous mf, helps defeat chaos like no other. Now come son, let's drink some good dwarven ale while you tell me about Monarchia, the beautiful golden city you made to honor your love for me. Let me bless it and return the love you and the people have given me tenfold, for I love humanity above all else..."
This was beautiful. And thank you for getting back to Lorgar. He will always be my favorite primarch, and one I love and cherish deeply. I have a feeling there's a twist coming. Maybe Lorgar's light will be something other than powers of the Immaterium.
The Emperor, so intelligent, so powerful, but it was too blinded by his emotions like a small child. There is always a better way, but he was just too impatient to find one.😢
@@durrangodsgrief6503 Talk to his son about his belief in him, show him his ways and why he does not see himself as a god. Not burn down monarchia. Tell him about the fears of chaos and how they are not gods worth worshipping.
For years I have despised Lorgar... look at your primarch, Honorius. So singular in aspect. So noble. I have envied you, envied the Imperial Fists, the Luna Wolves, the Iron Hands. And I am not alone. We struggle with a mercurial mind, Honorius. We labour under the burden of a brilliant but fallible commander. We no longer bear the word, my friend. We bear Lorgar. Sorot Tchure, Captain of the Word Bearers Legion Target//Acquisition
Why? Loyalist, to know why we "traitors" left your emperor's supposed light as a whole is beyond anything a single mouth can speak. I can't speak for the World Eaters, the Word Bearers, or any of the other legions, nor still of the many men and women who make up the legions of those you call the Lost and the Damned. I cannot even speak of my brothers as a whole, nor do I think I, or any one alive today, could speak for our father. I can only speak of myself. I can only speak of myself as a Space Marine. As a Night Lord. As one of those who were supposed to be agents of justice. I can only speak of someone who joined a legion and learned from our father how fear is meant to be a weapon to keep men and women from taking up the path of lawlessness and foolishness. Oh, don't prattle to me the old line of how fear never works forever or alone. We were one of eighteen legions in a galaxy-spanning empire. Let the Fists build, the Warriors build, and the sons of the blue boy administer. We had one job, and that was keeping the wayward and the foolish in line or putting them down, then lifting up their maimed remains as a warning to any considering the same path. Anyway, why did I go down the route I did. Well I suppose there were two things, two planets that make up that story. The first was Nuceria and the finding of Angron. I wasn't there when the primarch was found, and our legion was busy elsewhere, but I remember hearing about it, and a few years later, while in a joint operation...I still remember seeing it. I remember seeing him. I saw Angron and those...things in his head. The butcher's nails. I saw them, saw how they tormented him and ruined his ability to think, to control himself. The World Eaters had yet to apply those things to themselves, but they told us about them. Some of my more deranged brothers actually thought of using them on the inhabitants of the next planet we punished, or even applying it to their servitors for more viscous soldiers to unleash at need. While I could see their use on the guilty...this was too much. It was too much to use on otherwise normal people. We were meant to punish the guilty and to warn those still unfallen to remain on what we believed was the strait and narrow. They made the law abiding more likely to become criminals. They turned a primarch, a son of the Emperor, into a blood-maddened beast. I did not and do not care for Angron, but a society that would use these on slaves for more entertaining fights warranted punishment. It warranted the extermination of whatever criminals made this normal in a manner that would forever terrorize those considering something so disgusting. But the emperor let them live. This left me with a dilemma. I could not agree with his judgement, yet I could not yet reconcile that what the emperor said could be unjust. I never went as far as Lorgar and his acolytes, but I could not reconcile the emperor having such an error in the administration of justice. It left me with two possibilities: either justice proceeded from the emperor's authority, or it pre-existed him and held authority over him. If justice proceeded from him, that either amounted to divine authority, or meant that justice only depended on who wielded power, at which point it is no longer justice but arbitrary rule. If it pre-exists and is over him, then he would have to justify not punishing those who had done something abhorrent, or else explain that to maiming the unguilty, even his own son, was somehow acceptable. Nuceria had no leverage, nor any means to render the administration of their punishment as impractical, and it cannot be argued that such a deed was somehow just or acceptable, especially when done for mere entertainment. Then came the second part: Monarchia. The emperor had trumpeted his "Imperial Truth" of rabid secularism for centuries beforehand, but this was the final, definate declaration that he would not tolerate any claim that he or his authority was divine, and would shame and possibly destroy his own children to drive this home. This left me with one, inescapable conclusion: the emperor's rule is arbitrary and is either unjust and warranting punishment, or else there is no justice beyond the power and it whims. This left me, my father, and my brothers as nothing more than savage butchers and maiming of people to enforce the emperor's arbitrary whim. We were not enforcers of justice. We were not bringing fear to criminals and tyrants for some noble cause. We were just genetically engineered monsters terrorizing the galaxy to enforce the will of one man. One man who had ordered the slaughter of billions. Who had brought entire sentient species to extinction. Who tore and reformed our bodies to create slave soldiers who would enforce his rule over an entire galaxy. We were trying to destroy corruption and crime while serving a criminal. The sad part is I don't think I was the first to realize this. I sometimes think that's what damned us. Not the recruitment of criminals from Nostramo, but the fact that those criminals, and perhaps even our father, saw the truth...and decided there was no justice worth serving, nor order worth preserving. Every lesson in right and wrong was an immaculately-crafted lie. Every declaration of justice and guilt a pretty justification for the cruelty we reveled in against acceptable targets. With nothing to strive for other than service to a gilded criminal, I suppose its no surprise few wanted to be anything more than criminals themselves. As for me. I did want something more. I wanted something for the people I tore with my own claws. The punishments I enacted that now seemed so faulty in their rightness. I wanted the one thing I was born to do. I wanted to enact justice. I wanted revenge. I want revenge. I will have it. If I have to fight for another ten millennia, I will not stop till I've ground the emperor's remains into powder, one bone at a time. Now I'm going to give you an option. Will you forgo service to this criminal and assist my brothers and I in bringing true justice to this wretched imperium, or will you die for a lie?
It was a difficult task for the Emperor to separate the image of humanity greatest leader to that of a God, and what is worse is that we know that he could become one in the modern Imperium and that is perhaps his worse fate compared to Death.
There is two narrative and ontological conclusions a 'writer' of any kind can approach critique of the good ol Emperor. First that he is a bad dad and second that he is a bad god. He will deny both. He will decry the label of god while being materialistically superior to all of his kind. He is an ocean of drops of rain that cannot understand why all of history bends to his mistakes; yet also come to the conclusion he is neither a god but a person in a relatable sense. In that regard, when it comes to his mistakes in particular with his children, the ones with the stronger cases saw him as either or both as a bad dad and/or a bad god. Fact: He (the Emperor) BURNED (by his order) Monarchia while his SON watched another SON do it, essentially. Lorgar saw both him as a bad dad and a bad god, and now the grim darkness is worse for it. Emperor bless you if you are listening, for if you want to make up to any of your suns to fight the existential Greater Evil of Chaos...maybe by apologize for burning Monarchia. Just saying.
Lorgar was not wrong. However he was not correct at the same time. While the Emperor had power of a god, he chose not to embrace that apotheosis. It was the very fact that He knew he could rival the power of Chaos that led Him to his reasoning, that such power could be challenged in a way that would starve the so-called "gods" of their sustenance. Then F U C K I N G Horus happened. With the aid of the likes of Kor Pheron, and fucking Erubus. With Lorgar as an afterthought to which I argue is an even greater sin against his character. If only he had spent more time outside his Legion, his culture, his need to worship which was force on him by the same "gods" he was brought up to worship. He would have been the embodiment of the Imperial Creed. * I am drunk off of Irish whisky and Belgian ale while typing this. I am NOT going to remember this comment until maybe two days from now.
HOW? How was he starving the chaos gods? Was his imperium causing less bloodshed? Less famine and plagues? Less hedonism? Less stratagems and deceptions? The CG give 2 fs about being worshipped, the crazy psychos of society will get their blessings whether they like it or not. Big E only feed them, and gave them hundreds of thousands of immortal super soldiers to serve them forever. Big E didn't "starve" chaos, he caused Chaos Undivided and his Imperium is basically that, feeding chaos until entropy kills everyone or the space locusts eat the galaxy.
"This is worship. This is a poison to truth. You speak of me as a god, and forge worlds that suffer under the one lie that has brought humanity to the edge of extinction time and time again. The people are deceived. The people will burn when their faith is proven false. It is not my Imperium."
The lesson was suppose to show him what a god really looked like. They will take all you hold dear, have it burned, destroyed, and then they will have you kneel and thank him for it, against your very will.
And yet, that's EXACTLY what He a "Totally Not A God" does on the daily. He's too prideful to just Fucking own being a God and admit his divinity. What Lorgar went on to do was beyond Wrong, but Emps Fucked up royally.
@@randomcenturion7264 and yet the Emperor despite his hypocrisy is still correct. Gods in 40k will do everything Joseph listed they’d do. The C’tan did it to the Necrons. The Ruinous Powers do this every moment to their pawns. And the Emperor does it to his subjects, both Imperial and Mechanical
Would it not have been better if humanity had created a great future not because a god decided but because humanity suffered and worked for that future,The emperor crowned himself in golden armour and halo’s ,and a flaming sword not because he wanted to be seen as a god but because he wanted to show humanity that without the interruption of the powers Lorgar now serves,humanity could ascend to the state of being the emperor had achieved not by the will of a god but by the will of humanity
The Emperor is not a god. The only people who subscribe to Him being a god, are those who need a god to exist and find one in Him. It's their weakness that they rely on the notions of divinity. No better example is needed than Lorgar and his Word Bearers. People who needed there to be divinity, who when shown the error of their ways, simply sought divinity elsewhere.
"I'm not a god", said the 10 feet tall immortal golden god-man " Religion is bad, it had killed so many!" he exclaimed, as he launched his Great Crusade with the help of the Mechanicus, "Humanity should be free to follow reason, and when I say "reason", I mean UNQUESTIONABLE FOLLOW MY DECREES TO THE LETTER NO MATTER HOW CONTRADICTORY TO EACH OTHER THEY ARE OR ELSE" "For you see, I'm not a god" said the warp entity mega psyker than can move planets with his mind, "The only people who subscribe to ME being a god, are those who need a god to exist and find one in ME, for some reason " he pondered confusedly, blinding half the room with his literal brilliance. "It's their weakness that they rely on the notions of divinity." he nodded to himself, passing a group of Drukahri and Ork's attack survivors, who had to watch their own children be killed and were forced to eat them or something. "Anyway, gotta go see what they have posted this week in r/atheism!"
@Artemisarrowzz Is Galactus a god? No. Is He Who Remains, a god? No. Is Jean Gray a god? No. Is Apocalypse a god? No. Is the Tribunal? No. Is Lucifer Morningstar? No. Is Superman? No. The Emperor is powerful, the personae He wore whilst powering the Astronomican is god-like. But the man is still just a man. Before the Astronomican, as Sedayne sees him, well before the Unification Wars, he was just a man who lived in the mountains curing the people below of their genetic mutations. Just like he wore the guise of many people, just like Erda does and did right before she died. You want him to be a god because you need him to be, because the setting has nothing else positive in it. He's just a man. A peerlessly powerful man, but a man with all the flaws that come with it.
@@Char1iBr0wn This isn't Marvel or DC, dude. Want true, direct comparisons? Is Sigmar a god? Yes. Is Myrmidia a goddess? Yes. Did Teclis become a god? Yeah. What about Gotrek? Apparently, yes, as well. List goes on. In 40k. Were the old ones gods? Yeah. The C'tan? Yup. What about created beings like the aeldari or ork pantheon, or the CG? Yup, also gods. Power and having a realm makes you a god in the world of Warhammer. It does not make you GOD, as in, creator and master or the universe, but you are anything "but" a normal, mortal being. Knowledge or technological advancement is a plus, but it does not take from you being a god. If people worship you, if you can burn demon and their corruption, if the dead souls of someone go to you when they die, if you have a realm in the warp or if you have power to destroy planets with your mind alone then yes, in Warhammer, you are a god. I don't want him to be a god, dude is a psychopath. But the reality is than in his universe, he is objectively a god, and people worship him because not only did he eliminate all others alternatives, but because "faith in science" will not stop neither the CG nor the Xenos, but faith in him will. lol "just a man" "yeah he lights the astronomicon, faith in him give people superpowers and may return them from the death as warp daemons, but he is just a man" You too are a dude from r/atheism, aren't you?
@Artemisarrowzz you see the aspects of power and proscribe it as divinity. Those figures from the other settings, Marvel and DC, were they dropped into 40k, they'd be considered gods. Outside it, they're not. Because they're not. Power does not equate divinity. In the AoS, the pantheon have complete and total control of their respective realm. The Emperor, by comparison, needs to be kept alive and prevented from dying. You need there to be a god, especially in 40k, because there is nothing else to take it's place. There are gods in 40k: the Ruinous Powers. The Emperor is not those.
@@Char1iBr0wn I already told you 40k and Warhammer in general works different. Stop trying to compare characters from other ips who have nothing to do with the universe in question to those inside it because they have different rules. It's the equivalent of saying oh idk, "Kratos cannot be a god of war because if you took him out of his universe he would not compare to x and y character from this other ip who are NOT considered gods and are far stronger". It's honestly an incredibly stupid and nonsensical argument. Well, like it or not, IN THE UNIVERSE IN QUESTION OF WARHAMMER, it does. Power = divinity. I repeat, this it not freaking Marvel or DC. Neither Sigmar nor Myrmidia had "total control" of their realms and they were gods already in Fantasy, they were simply stupidly powerful thanks to worship, therefore, gods. Nagash, who wasn't worshiped, was also stupidly powerful, therefore, a god. Same for the C'tan, or the Aeldari Pantheon who didn't even have realms (at least Khaine didn't) and were gods...because they were so powerful. Because in Warhammer, power = divinity. Our why do you think the CG are gods, for real? Because everyone else calls them "gods", or do you think a "god" in Warhammer NEEDS to be an amorphous blob from space that eats energy from others? I don't "need" Big E to be a god in 40k, it's a freaking fictional satire about fascism in space. I've simply stated the rules of the setting. Get out of r/atheism or at the very least reddit, it's melting your brain.
Lorgar. He was hurt so bad he fell into even worse hands, and began to worship those even less deserving.
What if 40K with the last Church Guy joining big E how would he help lorgar ?
@@jamescannella1395Then it will be Dornian heressy
yeah that’s debatable
Man was hoping for sci fi Jesus and found incel Zeus
The Last Priest on Earth was right. And Big E Saw that priest in Lorgar. Which i think Haunted him and made him lash out in Denial against his own son as if he was his enemy.
We can all agree that the Big E was kinda wack on how he went about Logar's chastisement right ?
A little yeah. But he meant well and made the message as clear as possible without actually harming him or his legion. It even worked for a while actually, they were doing amazing until the Chaos thing
But it took many defenseless innocent lives. All who’s only crime was following Lorgar’s apostasy.
The Emperor’s war on religion lead him to sin against his own people. And that sin gave rise to a even worse apostasy.
Logar didn't fall to chaos, Big E picked him up and spiked him into chaos like he just scored the game winning touchdown.
not really the emperors only mistake was not killing Erebus and lorgars dad after this if he did lorgar may have been broken enough to be what the emperor needed@@JohnDoe-ly9sq
@ironduke5058 just to be clear they were doing the chaos thing like 12 minutes after that conversation the entire Legion went into lock down accomplishing nothing until lorgar emerged a semi chaos worshiper from meditation
Literally one of the most easily preventable tragedies of 30k.
Right tf along with Angron
If big E hadn't gone scorched earth, and humiliated Lorgar, probably even played into the hole divinity a little, or just sat down with him and explained WHY.
And this is why you don't place Redditors on command
@Tigran-Abazyan You know, Big E could explain to Lorgar WHY he is not a God. Lorgar, a little bit ironic, can understand rational points. His high figure, his Father, his God,couldn't even explain it to Lorgar. I mean more just "I am not a God" words. Big E doesn't give answers to him, nor to humanity. "Why we fight? What is your masterplan,Father? Why Warp is dangerous?"
P.S Sorry for low lvl. of English.
Lorgar was always meant for more but life treated him like dirt
It's a pity. He just went from one abusive parental figure to another.
Him and Magnus were probably the most avoidable losses. They wanted to work with the Emperor but were pretty much forced to do otherwise. The same can’t be said for the rest of the traitors.
no lorgar was a lost cause from the moment he arrived on monarchia @@non1263
@@randomcenturion7264 no kor Faron abused him the emperor applied brutal discipline to years of disobedience
Let's be honest, Big E is the biggest hypocrite, who says, "I'm not a god," while being adorned with gold, and who's psyker ability is only second to Tzeech. And who's knowledge is more vast than even the brightest of the Mechanicus.
He is able to slay countless lesser daemons with but his presence alone, and can match blows from daemon princes and greater daemons.
He claimed not to be a god, and yet he continues to carry himself in a way befitting one. He wished to destroy religion, and ended up making the biggest religion the galaxy has ever seen.
He was a god trying to pretend to be a man, but couldn't help but parade in a god like way.
That f bomb caught me a bit off guard
Too bad the source of that light is the burning pyre of billions of screaming human souls.
you don't have to agree with lorgar, but you have to admit that in this he points out some pretty good faults and hypocrisies with the emperor's tyrannical behavior
I like this Lorgar voice I’ve always thought Ralph fionnes was good from the prince of Egypt he sounds just like how I’d imagine Lorgar
"A child that is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel it's warmth" -African proverb
Well yeah, it is the origin of the School shooter complex after all. There's a reason why it's not exactly a bastion of civilization😂
Africans in a nutshell.
Lorgar has been memed on by certain parts of the community, and some of it is well earned, but this shows a more human side to the character. You really feel for the guy, and it causes you to give the emperor's actions some pause. The man claims he isn't a god to Lorgar, but when the Mechanicum calls him the omnisiah, he doesn't bother to correct them. Additionally, as Konrad said in Despair and Hope, Lorgar was punished for his blind devotion and zeal, but that same level of blind devotion is also required in embracing the "Imperial Truth."
Exactly. He claims faith is "Illogical" but Jahghati flat out warned Malcador one day, people were gonna be pissed off when they saw how many lies the Imperial "Truth" was built on.
@@randomcenturion7264 Because Jaghatai is a gigachad
The more I learn about Lorgar, the more I wish Erebus to be killed by the Gene-seed and Kor'phaeron to be squashed by some *totally not Alpharius*
We can all agree that Lorgar has 3 problems, called: Erebus, Kor Phaeron and Emperor. Seriously, he doesn't deserve all the crap he gets and i hope we will get a mini of him in his current stupidly powerful form. Everyone joke about him getting defeated by Warp mutated Corax and, fair enough, he was defeated, but he was throwing punches like never before. He wasn't kidding when he said that he isn't the same person from Ishtvan.
Dude, if only Sigmar was his dad instead of Big E...
@@Artemisarrowzzyou are so damn right, especially because, rumors has it that Volkmar the Grim is a direct descendant of Sigmar through a illegitimate child. Imagine Lorgar as Grand Theogonist.
@@giacomoromano8842 I think Lorgar is even designed after him, but I could be wrong. I guess it was too awesome and thus GW had to turn everyone into full dumbasses because mah atheist movement from the 2000s
@@Artemisarrowzz Lorgar: "You are a God father!"
Sigmar: "Damn right I am. Now, let's talk about getting some more ale into Monarchia."
@@randomcenturion7264lol we were thinking the same. "Damn right I am, Lorgar, my beloved son. Now gather your brothers, we have chaos to bonk"
Lorgar becomes the first Grand Theogonist, preaching with fondness about his not-a-psychopath father, accepting that the Empire is not perfect, but its his father legacy and he will die before letting chaos destroy it.
Was Lorgar cookin, or is he just a gold medalist in mental gymnastics? 🤔
Big if true
More like willful ignorance to me. He wanted a god to worship, but it didn’t matter to him what those gods required of him. He is a slave, pure and simple.
Some of these quote go hard.
“He preaches reason yet acts in anger”
“A god who fears his reflection in the eyes of his sons and daughters”
Man Lorgar fucked everything up, but he was hitting Emps with truth here
@@BrianHall33 That's why Emps was so mad at Lorgar. Cause he KNOWS he's right.
Lorgar was cooking harder than Nurgle when he made the Plague of Unbelief. Every word he spoke was true. Don't approve his methods, but approve his message, and I pray for him to come back to mankind only to pimpslap the Man-Emperor and tell him he's a better person dead on the Golden Throne than he ever was in life.
What he found from the dark was Damnation!
I like how the main argument of Lorgar belief in the Emperor's divinity is how over the top he is as a whole. And you can hear how fed up he his with Big E at that point.
Hearing Lorgar swear is always a treat 😅😂
Especially since he started off so reserved and eager to please. It's so sad yet compelling to see him just...not care anymore.
Monarchia was a bridge too far. He didn't need to purge them. They could have been redeemed. They found only lights far less worthy of worship.
Oh Emps how did you fumble the ball THIS Fucking hard?
A lethal combination of arrogance and short sightedness. All of Big E's power, squandered by the will behind it. After all; Who, but a god, could FUBAR something so completely?
don't forget the trial of magnus the red will happen soon
At times I think the Emp's is an Eldar God that is hiding from both Chaos and Eldar considers himself to be an Old Ones, which is even MORE a lie!?
Bad writing.
Your best serious work yet in my humble opinion.
The traitor primarchs are on average more interesting than the loyal ones, so I’ll die on that hill, though probably not alone, it might be quite crowded in fact.
I agree
I agree with you on the account of Konrad, Perturabo, Magnus, and Lorgar. Can't quite agree with you on some of the rest. Fulgrim was just an arrogant kanker sore from day one, Angron likely would have rebelled against the emperor even if he was allowed to keep his gladiator brothers on account of the Butcher's Nails, Mortarion was a giant hypocrite, Alpharius' reasons were convoluted at best, and Horus' fall from what I heard wasn't much better.
@@ninjat-rex7472 I personally don’t find Fulgrim and Angron that interesting either. A bit one note to me, but at least Angron has a really interesting backstory. When it comes to Mortarion I like him and found his primarch novel one of the better ones. Regardless wether a character is a hypocrite or some other negative trait doesn’t necessarily have any bearing on if I find them interesting or not, quite the opposite often. As to Alpharius, I don’t really know, all I know is I love the alpha legion and have yet to read a boring book set in 30k involving them. Also since everyone in the legion is pretty much Alpharius and behave as a giant symbiotic sneaky hydra I guess liking the legion means I like Alpharius Omegon as well.
My favorite is definitely Perturabo, closely followed by Lorgar who is however written with different amounts of quality given the many authors.
Do I want to hear Lorgar's rant? No.
Shall I listen to this? Yes, because I do feel a bit sorry for Lorgar.
Great writing as always.
And thus the seeds of Heresy begins to form...
In the end Lorgar has won. Currently the worship of The Emperor is The Only Thing keeping The Empire afloat.
There is but only a million or so space marine in an empire of trillions and trillions of humans. combine that with how not every single space marine chapter is strictly atheistic like during the great crusade (Looking at the Black Templars), also the Astartes are precision spec ops units, more or less, it is the Guard that is shouldering the bulk of the task of fighting the enemies of the Imperium.@Tigran-Abazyan
All Lorgar wanted was to lead his people under the banner of faith, love and community. While what he did was wrong in the eyes of scientific progress, it would've compelled the people of the Imperium to have other outlooks on life rather than follow the guidelines of a man who exudes so much wisdom and knowledge, yet is so incredibly hypercritical that he would rather subjugated millions to an unnecessary death than set his own son aside for but a moment to explain why he desires a secular empire.
The Primarchs were meant to be his generals in the Crusade, and while some may have met a fate worse than death, the lies of the Emperor still lead them down the path of damnation.
im very sure the emperor did but lorgar still called him a god even becoming secretive about it and what lie did he tell the chaos "gods" arent gods their dependent beings bound to creation and require the support of mortal beings they arent gods
I feel bad for Lorgar, he really wasn't a bad dude back then.
Babe! Wake up! Voxcast to Nowhere posted again!
So anyway, Sigmar is better Emperor of Mankind than Big E will ever dream of being.
Virgin E: "Nnooooo! Secularism is the way!"
Chad Sigmar: "Yeah, I'm a God. Chaos sucks, some of the other Gods are pretty cool too, Nagash can get Fucked though."
@@randomcenturion7264 "You are correct, my son. Also, I have no other plan or ulterior motive than hitting chaos very hard with my warhammer, because time has proven that hitting chaos, and not being a duplicitous mf, helps defeat chaos like no other.
Now come son, let's drink some good dwarven ale while you tell me about Monarchia, the beautiful golden city you made to honor your love for me. Let me bless it and return the love you and the people have given me tenfold, for I love humanity above all else..."
Sigmar is better in just about every way than the Emperor.
Just cant stop posting up these Mother F****ng BANGERS. Absolutely love it Horus, well done, truth.
This was beautiful. And thank you for getting back to Lorgar. He will always be my favorite primarch, and one I love and cherish deeply. I have a feeling there's a twist coming. Maybe Lorgar's light will be something other than powers of the Immaterium.
The Emperor, so intelligent, so powerful, but it was too blinded by his emotions like a small child. There is always a better way, but he was just too impatient to find one.😢
list them
@@durrangodsgrief6503
Talk to his son about his belief in him, show him his ways and why he does not see himself as a god.
Not burn down monarchia.
Tell him about the fears of chaos and how they are not gods worth worshipping.
For years I have despised Lorgar... look at your primarch, Honorius. So singular in aspect. So noble.
I have envied you, envied the Imperial Fists, the Luna Wolves, the Iron Hands. And I am not alone.
We struggle with a mercurial mind, Honorius. We labour under the burden of a brilliant but fallible commander.
We no longer bear the word, my friend. We bear Lorgar.
Sorot Tchure, Captain of the Word Bearers Legion
Target//Acquisition
Why?
Loyalist, to know why we "traitors" left your emperor's supposed light as a whole is beyond anything a single mouth can speak. I can't speak for the World Eaters, the Word Bearers, or any of the other legions, nor still of the many men and women who make up the legions of those you call the Lost and the Damned. I cannot even speak of my brothers as a whole, nor do I think I, or any one alive today, could speak for our father.
I can only speak of myself. I can only speak of myself as a Space Marine. As a Night Lord. As one of those who were supposed to be agents of justice.
I can only speak of someone who joined a legion and learned from our father how fear is meant to be a weapon to keep men and women from taking up the path of lawlessness and foolishness.
Oh, don't prattle to me the old line of how fear never works forever or alone. We were one of eighteen legions in a galaxy-spanning empire. Let the Fists build, the Warriors build, and the sons of the blue boy administer. We had one job, and that was keeping the wayward and the foolish in line or putting them down, then lifting up their maimed remains as a warning to any considering the same path.
Anyway, why did I go down the route I did. Well I suppose there were two things, two planets that make up that story.
The first was Nuceria and the finding of Angron. I wasn't there when the primarch was found, and our legion was busy elsewhere, but I remember hearing about it, and a few years later, while in a joint operation...I still remember seeing it.
I remember seeing him.
I saw Angron and those...things in his head.
The butcher's nails.
I saw them, saw how they tormented him and ruined his ability to think, to control himself. The World Eaters had yet to apply those things to themselves, but they told us about them. Some of my more deranged brothers actually thought of using them on the inhabitants of the next planet we punished, or even applying it to their servitors for more viscous soldiers to unleash at need.
While I could see their use on the guilty...this was too much. It was too much to use on otherwise normal people. We were meant to punish the guilty and to warn those still unfallen to remain on what we believed was the strait and narrow. They made the law abiding more likely to become criminals. They turned a primarch, a son of the Emperor, into a blood-maddened beast.
I did not and do not care for Angron, but a society that would use these on slaves for more entertaining fights warranted punishment. It warranted the extermination of whatever criminals made this normal in a manner that would forever terrorize those considering something so disgusting.
But the emperor let them live.
This left me with a dilemma. I could not agree with his judgement, yet I could not yet reconcile that what the emperor said could be unjust. I never went as far as Lorgar and his acolytes, but I could not reconcile the emperor having such an error in the administration of justice. It left me with two possibilities: either justice proceeded from the emperor's authority, or it pre-existed him and held authority over him. If justice proceeded from him, that either amounted to divine authority, or meant that justice only depended on who wielded power, at which point it is no longer justice but arbitrary rule. If it pre-exists and is over him, then he would have to justify not punishing those who had done something abhorrent, or else explain that to maiming the unguilty, even his own son, was somehow acceptable.
Nuceria had no leverage, nor any means to render the administration of their punishment as impractical, and it cannot be argued that such a deed was somehow just or acceptable, especially when done for mere entertainment.
Then came the second part: Monarchia. The emperor had trumpeted his "Imperial Truth" of rabid secularism for centuries beforehand, but this was the final, definate declaration that he would not tolerate any claim that he or his authority was divine, and would shame and possibly destroy his own children to drive this home.
This left me with one, inescapable conclusion: the emperor's rule is arbitrary and is either unjust and warranting punishment, or else there is no justice beyond the power and it whims.
This left me, my father, and my brothers as nothing more than savage butchers and maiming of people to enforce the emperor's arbitrary whim. We were not enforcers of justice. We were not bringing fear to criminals and tyrants for some noble cause. We were just genetically engineered monsters terrorizing the galaxy to enforce the will of one man. One man who had ordered the slaughter of billions. Who had brought entire sentient species to extinction. Who tore and reformed our bodies to create slave soldiers who would enforce his rule over an entire galaxy.
We were trying to destroy corruption and crime while serving a criminal.
The sad part is I don't think I was the first to realize this. I sometimes think that's what damned us. Not the recruitment of criminals from Nostramo, but the fact that those criminals, and perhaps even our father, saw the truth...and decided there was no justice worth serving, nor order worth preserving. Every lesson in right and wrong was an immaculately-crafted lie. Every declaration of justice and guilt a pretty justification for the cruelty we reveled in against acceptable targets. With nothing to strive for other than service to a gilded criminal, I suppose its no surprise few wanted to be anything more than criminals themselves.
As for me. I did want something more. I wanted something for the people I tore with my own claws. The punishments I enacted that now seemed so faulty in their rightness. I wanted the one thing I was born to do.
I wanted to enact justice.
I wanted revenge.
I want revenge.
I will have it. If I have to fight for another ten millennia, I will not stop till I've ground the emperor's remains into powder, one bone at a time.
Now I'm going to give you an option. Will you forgo service to this criminal and assist my brothers and I in bringing true justice to this wretched imperium, or will you die for a lie?
Such a powerful statement!
I feel like liking this video will involve the Inquisition at my door
Pain and anquish well executed through this naration ... Well done.
Lorgar no… please, don’t do this my Lord.
Dang! Knocked it out of the park as always! (Actual chills)
*puts on Tech Noir 2 by Gunship, sips amasec,*
Ahhh yeah
so... lorgar's still salty he got banned off the group chat eh? LOL!
Poor 'Gar 😢
It was a difficult task for the Emperor to separate the image of humanity greatest leader to that of a God, and what is worse is that we know that he could become one in the modern Imperium and that is perhaps his worse fate compared to Death.
Love from a Vaush and ChoaticVoices fan!
My boy Lorgar is spittin facts here.
Wish I could have given him a hug
I like to think olinaus and lorgar use to do small bible studies together
There is two narrative and ontological conclusions a 'writer' of any kind can approach critique of the good ol Emperor. First that he is a bad dad and second that he is a bad god. He will deny both. He will decry the label of god while being materialistically superior to all of his kind. He is an ocean of drops of rain that cannot understand why all of history bends to his mistakes; yet also come to the conclusion he is neither a god but a person in a relatable sense. In that regard, when it comes to his mistakes in particular with his children, the ones with the stronger cases saw him as either or both as a bad dad and/or a bad god. Fact: He (the Emperor) BURNED (by his order) Monarchia while his SON watched another SON do it, essentially.
Lorgar saw both him as a bad dad and a bad god, and now the grim darkness is worse for it. Emperor bless you if you are listening, for if you want to make up to any of your suns to fight the existential Greater Evil of Chaos...maybe by apologize for burning Monarchia. Just saying.
Bravo! Thank you for doing Lorgar justice! I’d love to see more videos like this, of the Primarchs revealing their inner thoughts and beliefs. ❤
Oh no. I really, really hope, that this isn't going to go the way that it does in canon.
Thank you for the mention, dude. That really means a lot c:
So good! Could've sworn this was a canonical speech
He spent more time with the real powers than his brothers....they're all warp spawn as we are according to 40k. Slaanesh tho...that's the good lore.
I'm not ready for this
I'm not ready
True Salamander git: Seethe some more quire boy.
Still my favorite primarch.
Well done.
Lorgar was not wrong. However he was not correct at the same time. While the Emperor had power of a god, he chose not to embrace that apotheosis. It was the very fact that He knew he could rival the power of Chaos that led Him to his reasoning, that such power could be challenged in a way that would starve the so-called "gods" of their sustenance.
Then F U C K I N G Horus happened. With the aid of the likes of Kor Pheron, and fucking Erubus. With Lorgar as an afterthought to which I argue is an even greater sin against his character. If only he had spent more time outside his Legion, his culture, his need to worship which was force on him by the same "gods" he was brought up to worship. He would have been the embodiment of the Imperial Creed.
* I am drunk off of Irish whisky and Belgian ale while typing this. I am NOT going to remember this comment until maybe two days from now.
HOW? How was he starving the chaos gods? Was his imperium causing less bloodshed? Less famine and plagues? Less hedonism? Less stratagems and deceptions? The CG give 2 fs about being worshipped, the crazy psychos of society will get their blessings whether they like it or not. Big E only feed them, and gave them hundreds of thousands of immortal super soldiers to serve them forever.
Big E didn't "starve" chaos, he caused Chaos Undivided and his Imperium is basically that, feeding chaos until entropy kills everyone or the space locusts eat the galaxy.
"This is worship. This is a poison to truth. You speak of me as a god, and forge worlds that suffer under the one lie that has brought humanity to the edge of extinction time and time again. The people are deceived. The people will burn when their faith is proven false. It is not my Imperium."
Heresy go burrrrrr
What is this from? :3
Magnus did nothing wrong
Lorgar did
The lesson was suppose to show him what a god really looked like. They will take all you hold dear, have it burned, destroyed, and then they will have you kneel and thank him for it, against your very will.
And yet, that's EXACTLY what He a "Totally Not A God" does on the daily.
He's too prideful to just Fucking own being a God and admit his divinity.
What Lorgar went on to do was beyond Wrong, but Emps Fucked up royally.
@@randomcenturion7264 and yet the Emperor despite his hypocrisy is still correct. Gods in 40k will do everything Joseph listed they’d do. The C’tan did it to the Necrons. The Ruinous Powers do this every moment to their pawns. And the Emperor does it to his subjects, both Imperial and Mechanical
Would it not have been better if humanity had created a great future not because a god decided but because humanity suffered and worked for that future,The emperor crowned himself in golden armour and halo’s ,and a flaming sword not because he wanted to be seen as a god but because he wanted to show humanity that without the interruption of the powers Lorgar now serves,humanity could ascend to the state of being the emperor had achieved not by the will of a god but by the will of humanity
Emperor did nothing wrong.
The Emperor is not a god. The only people who subscribe to Him being a god, are those who need a god to exist and find one in Him. It's their weakness that they rely on the notions of divinity. No better example is needed than Lorgar and his Word Bearers. People who needed there to be divinity, who when shown the error of their ways, simply sought divinity elsewhere.
"I'm not a god", said the 10 feet tall immortal golden god-man " Religion is bad, it had killed so many!" he exclaimed, as he launched his Great Crusade with the help of the Mechanicus, "Humanity should be free to follow reason, and when I say "reason", I mean UNQUESTIONABLE FOLLOW MY DECREES TO THE LETTER NO MATTER HOW CONTRADICTORY TO EACH OTHER THEY ARE OR ELSE"
"For you see, I'm not a god" said the warp entity mega psyker than can move planets with his mind, "The only people who subscribe to ME being a god, are those who need a god to exist and find one in ME, for some reason " he pondered confusedly, blinding half the room with his literal brilliance.
"It's their weakness that they rely on the notions of divinity." he nodded to himself, passing a group of Drukahri and Ork's attack survivors, who had to watch their own children be killed and were forced to eat them or something.
"Anyway, gotta go see what they have posted this week in r/atheism!"
@Artemisarrowzz Is Galactus a god? No. Is He Who Remains, a god? No. Is Jean Gray a god? No. Is Apocalypse a god? No. Is the Tribunal? No. Is Lucifer Morningstar? No. Is Superman? No.
The Emperor is powerful, the personae He wore whilst powering the Astronomican is god-like. But the man is still just a man. Before the Astronomican, as Sedayne sees him, well before the Unification Wars, he was just a man who lived in the mountains curing the people below of their genetic mutations. Just like he wore the guise of many people, just like Erda does and did right before she died.
You want him to be a god because you need him to be, because the setting has nothing else positive in it.
He's just a man. A peerlessly powerful man, but a man with all the flaws that come with it.
@@Char1iBr0wn This isn't Marvel or DC, dude. Want true, direct comparisons?
Is Sigmar a god? Yes. Is Myrmidia a goddess? Yes. Did Teclis become a god? Yeah. What about Gotrek? Apparently, yes, as well. List goes on.
In 40k. Were the old ones gods? Yeah. The C'tan? Yup. What about created beings like the aeldari or ork pantheon, or the CG? Yup, also gods.
Power and having a realm makes you a god in the world of Warhammer. It does not make you GOD, as in, creator and master or the universe, but you are anything "but" a normal, mortal being. Knowledge or technological advancement is a plus, but it does not take from you being a god.
If people worship you, if you can burn demon and their corruption, if the dead souls of someone go to you when they die, if you have a realm in the warp or if you have power to destroy planets with your mind alone then yes, in Warhammer, you are a god.
I don't want him to be a god, dude is a psychopath. But the reality is than in his universe, he is objectively a god, and people worship him because not only did he eliminate all others alternatives, but because "faith in science" will not stop neither the CG nor the Xenos, but faith in him will.
lol "just a man" "yeah he lights the astronomicon, faith in him give people superpowers and may return them from the death as warp daemons, but he is just a man"
You too are a dude from r/atheism, aren't you?
@Artemisarrowzz you see the aspects of power and proscribe it as divinity. Those figures from the other settings, Marvel and DC, were they dropped into 40k, they'd be considered gods. Outside it, they're not. Because they're not.
Power does not equate divinity.
In the AoS, the pantheon have complete and total control of their respective realm.
The Emperor, by comparison, needs to be kept alive and prevented from dying.
You need there to be a god, especially in 40k, because there is nothing else to take it's place.
There are gods in 40k: the Ruinous Powers. The Emperor is not those.
@@Char1iBr0wn I already told you 40k and Warhammer in general works different. Stop trying to compare characters from other ips who have nothing to do with the universe in question to those inside it because they have different rules.
It's the equivalent of saying oh idk, "Kratos cannot be a god of war because if you took him out of his universe he would not compare to x and y character from this other ip who are NOT considered gods and are far stronger". It's honestly an incredibly stupid and nonsensical argument.
Well, like it or not, IN THE UNIVERSE IN QUESTION OF WARHAMMER, it does. Power = divinity. I repeat, this it not freaking Marvel or DC.
Neither Sigmar nor Myrmidia had "total control" of their realms and they were gods already in Fantasy, they were simply stupidly powerful thanks to worship, therefore, gods. Nagash, who wasn't worshiped, was also stupidly powerful, therefore, a god. Same for the C'tan, or the Aeldari Pantheon who didn't even have realms (at least Khaine didn't) and were gods...because they were so powerful.
Because in Warhammer, power = divinity.
Our why do you think the CG are gods, for real? Because everyone else calls them "gods", or do you think a "god" in Warhammer NEEDS to be an amorphous blob from space that eats energy from others?
I don't "need" Big E to be a god in 40k, it's a freaking fictional satire about fascism in space. I've simply stated the rules of the setting.
Get out of r/atheism or at the very least reddit, it's melting your brain.