I love choreographing comic fights. It makes me sad that so many comic fights are just the same stock punches and kicks with gimmicks but no real storytelling. Great vid mate, and instructive as always.
Yeah, I think if you underpin them with a proper narrative (not that this episode specifically, addresses that, but good topic for a future ep) that's what is always important, even if it's a basic one. - Hass
I rarely find myself enjoying comic book fight scenes. The only time I can remember is in one of Rick Remender's All-New Captain America issues with Stuart Immonen. It was easy to follow, well choreographed and well framed. And I guess some of David Aja's Hawkeye and Immortal Iron Fist fight scenes are alright too.
Most comic fights aren't very exciting. There's too much dialogue, and the actual attacks are usually generic, boring punches. Moon Knight is a great example of a western comic fight that was satisfying to read.
Glad you're talking about fights in comics, very interseting topic. i feel like often in super hero comics there is a fight scene just because the writers feel like they are obligated to put a fight in there and the result is a generic, lackluster fight where no real effort or thought was put into it. That is specially true when it comes to event books where there are so many characters that it turns into a huge cluster fuck. Often times the artist will have the characters strike cool action poses that make for great posters but underwhelming fights. . or if the fight is good they ruin it by putting a lot of dialogue. In this regard i think manga is truly superior to comics, since to them the fight is the story itself and they put a lot of character and emotional weight behind them. But to be fair they can afford to have way more pages dedicated to figth scenes, since that's what's expected of them, and sometimes fights can go on for too long.
Yeah I think there needs to be an actual reason for the conflict. With superheroes sometimes it can just be like, we need to punch this person to stop them hurting others, which is fine. But yeah, fighting is just storytelling, too. - Hass
Y'know I was just working on a fight/chase scene and struggling with how to choose panel composition to make the action clear. I decide to just google advice and this comes up, helping me realize that my problem is too much information on one panel. Thank you so much!
Thanks. I've always been worried about how I would write choreography. I didn't want to seem the hero just effortlessly mows through enemies or make it super confusing.
One other method I've seen when the enemies are nameless is that the colorist will only put the character we're supposed to follow in full color leaving the others as silhuets. Then the central character can take on multiple villains simultaneously because we still know where to look.
I wonder if any comics use the idea of choreographing a fight to move your eye through the page as a pattern across multiple pages, essentially leading you to the same parts of each page. (Geez that’s harder to explain than I first realized).
Strip Panel Naked it’s difficult to explain without visuals. But your eye usually follows an imaginary line or sorts as it’s lead through the page. What if that same line is repeated on multiple pages? Obviously your eye is led through each page, but usually in a different manner, creating a new imaginary line on each page. But if that imaginary line is repeated on multiple pages it creates a pattern, and that pattern creates a dance, so to speak. Not just simple reputation of someone getting punched in the face, but the repetition of where your eyes go. It would be interesting to see if any comics have approached a fight scene like that.
I think Identity Crisis' problem is that the fight scene, whilr crafted so it's readable, doesn't work from a wrotong standpoint. The characters rushing one at a time *might* make sense, but the choreography itself is just... dumb. Stuff like grabbing Kyle Rayner's ring ehich somehow stops it (never mind that Kyle flew into melee range at all), putting a sack on Blqck Canary to take her out or that Wally West qould have to bssically run into a stationary sword to be hit my it. Just... man is that scene frustrating.
I've always been disappointed by the fight choreography in most superhero comics. Outside of superstars like Frank Quitely, John Romita Jr, John Byrne, or Herb Trimpe, superhero fight scenes often feel so rote to me. I find manga fight scenes to be much more compelling. When I think of comic fight choreography, my mind goes to Dragon Ball, Blade of the Immortal, or Naruto. Manga is more willing to devote pages to purely fighting, employing lots of action-to-action transitions. The formal 22-page limitations of Superhero comics prevent this, favoring economy, so the fight scenes are truncated, and there's usually dialogue or narration accompanying the fights. Conversely, Manga fights try to convey the sense that the fight is happening in real time, as if a Hong Kong fight scene were translated to the page, which I love. Sarah Horrocks wrote an amazing blog post about the choreography in Blade of the Immortal a few years back: mercurialblonde.wordpress.com/2013/07/31/your-comics-fight-lame-like-disco-hiroaki-samura-and-the-realness/ And David Brothers wrote an article way back about the fights in Dragon Ball Z: comicsalliance.com/akira-toriyamas-dragon-ball-is-full-of-laughs-and-action-that/
i totally agree with you. the thing is manga is produced at a much higher rate than comics so it's normal for them to dedicate 50 to 70 pages to just one fight (and that's kinda short)while american comics would never do that
Would you ever consider doing a video on how Mister Miracle has been displaying depression and PTSD? I have been loving the series up to this point largely because of the way it shows these real problems and how they effect people in meaningful ways. It has been one of the most meaningful comics to me personally and, as someone who suffers from depression, while I would absolutely love to do a video on this topic myself, I sadly don't have a way to currently do so. Your analysis videos are really interesting and I would be super interested to see if you have a similar point of view to me or even if its different I'd love to know how you feel about the art and dialogue show these problems.
Check out issue #4 of the magazine I edit, PanelxPanel: Gumroad.com/l/PXPNO4 -- the first half is all about Mister Miracle, and includes some stuff on depression and how it relates to the series. Also, in the latest issue (Gumroad.com/l/PXPNO8) I wrote an article about how Mister Miracle and other comics in 2017 entered the age of the post-hero -- you may find that interesting, too! - Hass
Nothing is worse than Dragon Ball in fighting choreography, in my opinion. The examples you gave in the video try, at least, to give us the illusion that all characters are occupied fighting, but in Dragon Ball it always pissed me off how everyone is litterally staring at Goku (or any other character) be smaked to death, and they won't take action...Even though I'm a huge Dragon Ball fan, this always pissed me off since I was a kid. Great video btw :)
What? The Dragon Ball manga has some of the best fight choreography in comics! Akira Toriyama was an avid Jackie Chan fan, and it shows. David Brothers wrote a great article examining the choreography in Dragon Ball Z fights years ago: comicsalliance.com/akira-toriyamas-dragon-ball-is-full-of-laughs-and-action-that/
I agree, I didn't mean that the fight scenes were bad, but following what Strip Panel Naked says in this video about how heroes always fight one on one, scenes like Gohan vs Cell always come to mind. I mean, Cell is about to destroy the planet and the whole human race, Gohan is getting his ass kicked, and meanwhile Krillin and co. are like "okay dude, we won't interfere. it's fine". I know it's just an action anime, but it always annoys me a bit xD
In the case of Goku he would be fine with them watching him get beat because it's more about the sport of fighting than anything. Sure he wants to save the world but if he can make that a good even fight he'd toss away any advantages ideally. But dbz in particular has definitely had scenes where a guy is fighting multiple dudes at the exact same time.
3 month old comment but still, most of the Z fighters are too weak to really contribute to helping out against the big baddie of the arc. They would end up getting killed or hurt via friendly fire.
I love choreographing comic fights. It makes me sad that so many comic fights are just the same stock punches and kicks with gimmicks but no real storytelling. Great vid mate, and instructive as always.
Yeah, I think if you underpin them with a proper narrative (not that this episode specifically, addresses that, but good topic for a future ep) that's what is always important, even if it's a basic one.
- Hass
Strip Panel Naked No that would have been too much in one ep, and so I look forward to the sequel ;)
I rarely find myself enjoying comic book fight scenes. The only time I can remember is in one of Rick Remender's All-New Captain America issues with Stuart Immonen. It was easy to follow, well choreographed and well framed.
And I guess some of David Aja's Hawkeye and Immortal Iron Fist fight scenes are alright too.
Most comic fights aren't very exciting. There's too much dialogue, and the actual attacks are usually generic, boring punches. Moon Knight is a great example of a western comic fight that was satisfying to read.
The Shalvey/Ellis run? YEP!
- Hass
YES!!!
Glad you're talking about fights in comics, very interseting topic. i feel like often in super hero comics there is a fight scene just because the writers feel like they are obligated to put a fight in there and the result is a generic, lackluster fight where no real effort or thought was put into it. That is specially true when it comes to event books where there are so many characters that it turns into a huge cluster fuck. Often times the artist will have the characters strike cool action poses that make for great posters but underwhelming fights. . or if the fight is good they ruin it by putting a lot of dialogue.
In this regard i think manga is truly superior to comics, since to them the fight is the story itself and they put a lot of character and emotional weight behind them. But to be fair they can afford to have way more pages dedicated to figth scenes, since that's what's expected of them, and sometimes fights can go on for too long.
Yeah I think there needs to be an actual reason for the conflict. With superheroes sometimes it can just be like, we need to punch this person to stop them hurting others, which is fine. But yeah, fighting is just storytelling, too.
- Hass
Y'know I was just working on a fight/chase scene and struggling with how to choose panel composition to make the action clear. I decide to just google advice and this comes up, helping me realize that my problem is too much information on one panel. Thank you so much!
Nextwave! Hitting me with one of my favorite moments in one of my favorite comic books in the medium! Thank you, Strip Panel Naked.
Love Nextwave! David Harper wrote a really great piece about it in issue #6 (I think...) of panelxpanel.com -- check it out!
- Hass
Thanks. I've always been worried about how I would write choreography. I didn't want to seem the hero just effortlessly mows through enemies or make it super confusing.
How can you dislike this. This is gold!
Great piece, man!
One other method I've seen when the enemies are nameless is that the colorist will only put the character we're supposed to follow in full color leaving the others as silhuets. Then the central character can take on multiple villains simultaneously because we still know where to look.
Yup, that's a nice trick, too!
- Hass
I wonder if any comics use the idea of choreographing a fight to move your eye through the page as a pattern across multiple pages, essentially leading you to the same parts of each page. (Geez that’s harder to explain than I first realized).
Yeah... How do you mean?! (haha)
- Hass
Strip Panel Naked it’s difficult to explain without visuals. But your eye usually follows an imaginary line or sorts as it’s lead through the page. What if that same line is repeated on multiple pages? Obviously your eye is led through each page, but usually in a different manner, creating a new imaginary line on each page. But if that imaginary line is repeated on multiple pages it creates a pattern, and that pattern creates a dance, so to speak. Not just simple reputation of someone getting punched in the face, but the repetition of where your eyes go. It would be interesting to see if any comics have approached a fight scene like that.
Nextwave was so good!
thank you this is a truly great vid! great insights
I think Identity Crisis' problem is that the fight scene, whilr crafted so it's readable, doesn't work from a wrotong standpoint. The characters rushing one at a time *might* make sense, but the choreography itself is just... dumb. Stuff like grabbing Kyle Rayner's ring ehich somehow stops it (never mind that Kyle flew into melee range at all), putting a sack on Blqck Canary to take her out or that Wally West qould have to bssically run into a stationary sword to be hit my it. Just... man is that scene frustrating.
Hahaha -- you've got to forgive superhero comics sometimes :P
- Hass
I've always been disappointed by the fight choreography in most superhero comics. Outside of superstars like Frank Quitely, John Romita Jr, John Byrne, or Herb Trimpe, superhero fight scenes often feel so rote to me. I find manga fight scenes to be much more compelling. When I think of comic fight choreography, my mind goes to Dragon Ball, Blade of the Immortal, or Naruto. Manga is more willing to devote pages to purely fighting, employing lots of action-to-action transitions. The formal 22-page limitations of Superhero comics prevent this, favoring economy, so the fight scenes are truncated, and there's usually dialogue or narration accompanying the fights. Conversely, Manga fights try to convey the sense that the fight is happening in real time, as if a Hong Kong fight scene were translated to the page, which I love.
Sarah Horrocks wrote an amazing blog post about the choreography in Blade of the Immortal a few years back: mercurialblonde.wordpress.com/2013/07/31/your-comics-fight-lame-like-disco-hiroaki-samura-and-the-realness/
And David Brothers wrote an article way back about the fights in Dragon Ball Z: comicsalliance.com/akira-toriyamas-dragon-ball-is-full-of-laughs-and-action-that/
i totally agree with you. the thing is manga is produced at a much higher rate than comics so it's normal for them to dedicate 50 to 70 pages to just one fight (and that's kinda short)while american comics would never do that
@@dantecrottogini529
Never?
👍
Would you ever consider doing a video on how Mister Miracle has been displaying depression and PTSD? I have been loving the series up to this point largely because of the way it shows these real problems and how they effect people in meaningful ways. It has been one of the most meaningful comics to me personally and, as someone who suffers from depression, while I would absolutely love to do a video on this topic myself, I sadly don't have a way to currently do so. Your analysis videos are really interesting and I would be super interested to see if you have a similar point of view to me or even if its different I'd love to know how you feel about the art and dialogue show these problems.
Check out issue #4 of the magazine I edit, PanelxPanel: Gumroad.com/l/PXPNO4 -- the first half is all about Mister Miracle, and includes some stuff on depression and how it relates to the series. Also, in the latest issue (Gumroad.com/l/PXPNO8) I wrote an article about how Mister Miracle and other comics in 2017 entered the age of the post-hero -- you may find that interesting, too!
- Hass
download now
instagram.com/p/B8zcEn9HQaA/?
Nothing is worse than Dragon Ball in fighting choreography, in my opinion. The examples you gave in the video try, at least, to give us the illusion that all characters are occupied fighting, but in Dragon Ball it always pissed me off how everyone is litterally staring at Goku (or any other character) be smaked to death, and they won't take action...Even though I'm a huge Dragon Ball fan, this always pissed me off since I was a kid. Great video btw :)
What? The Dragon Ball manga has some of the best fight choreography in comics! Akira Toriyama was an avid Jackie Chan fan, and it shows. David Brothers wrote a great article examining the choreography in Dragon Ball Z fights years ago: comicsalliance.com/akira-toriyamas-dragon-ball-is-full-of-laughs-and-action-that/
I agree, I didn't mean that the fight scenes were bad, but following what Strip Panel Naked says in this video about how heroes always fight one on one, scenes like Gohan vs Cell always come to mind. I mean, Cell is about to destroy the planet and the whole human race, Gohan is getting his ass kicked, and meanwhile Krillin and co. are like "okay dude, we won't interfere. it's fine". I know it's just an action anime, but it always annoys me a bit xD
that's a plot thing. besides they allways fight one on one because of their sense of honor and how much they enjoy fighting
In the case of Goku he would be fine with them watching him get beat because it's more about the sport of fighting than anything. Sure he wants to save the world but if he can make that a good even fight he'd toss away any advantages ideally.
But dbz in particular has definitely had scenes where a guy is fighting multiple dudes at the exact same time.
3 month old comment but still, most of the Z fighters are too weak to really contribute to helping out against the big baddie of the arc. They would end up getting killed or hurt via friendly fire.