Can’t say I disagree. What I’ve also learned is that fights in the air is also the most boring thing to shoot. Definitely something I’m keeping in mind for the sequel.
@ponysmasher man as stated, I LOVED what you did with Shazam. From Lights Out on you have easily been one of my favorite directors. Interesting to hear you say that shooting them isn't that fun either, hadn't really considered that. Looking forward to Shazam 2.
Wow! Amazing to see you here. :) Great to be able to get that little insight into your experience of production. While I love the availability of content that streaming/digital has brought about, I do miss watching director commentaries. Perhaps I’ll have to snag this on Blu-ray to see if I can hear a bit more about production. Seeing your comment here makes me even more excited for the sequel. :)
The one dude who breathes bourne movies: WTF YOU TALKING ABOUT MAN YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE WHEN HE PUNCHED AND WHERE RIGHT BEFORE THE CUT YOU JUST CAN'T APPRECIATE THE STYLE
"They become a danger to their world, not to each other" Number one problem I have with super fights. So the "hero" throws a villain through a building. Hero has a code not to kill. But they toppled over a building full of people. Usually sparing the villain. What?
yeah that's the whole point of series from both DC and Marvel (injustice , civil war like genres) . Like "the boys" on amazon and many more. Let us have our entertainment and eat it too, you heathen.
I think the problem here is not flight but invulnerability. Take invincible, every punch in the air has weight because we see the consequences of that hit.
I think in a practical sense, it's the weight and momentum of the characters. Which is kinda just the other side of invulnerability. Like, in Invincible- and actually in Korra- a well-placed hit knocks an opponent out pretty much every episode, so it makes sense for the characters to be dodging and deflecting, and that involves movement. Combined that with the fact that realistically animated movement is another major thing that both Invincible and Avatar focused on getting right, and it's not even comparable to the Man of Steel sky-hugging session of a fight
@@bobbymeyers6473 Exactly. The avatar state may be insanely powerful, but it's not immortal. Dying in the avatar state is always a risk, and it was certainly a risk when Korra fought Zaheer in the season 3 finale. Invulnerability makes fights feel like they have lower stakes, especially if combatants don't even take damage when getting hit repeatedly.
I think that your point balances the video’s. I think if the characters are invulnerable (think two guys with plot armor) you can get away with it if you’re able to lie in a language we understand. You’re right, even if I love good choreography. That said. My favorite fights are from properties like Chainsaw Man and Attack On Titan where people get utterly mauled in moments, chunks torn out of them and whole halves of the cast die because everyone’s out of their depth.
That's exactly right. I also kind of see the appeal of Batman now. He's just a human without any superpowers. He's vulnerable and every blow that he takes has an impact on him.
@@hittingyouoverthehead but then again batman also ends up feeling like a superhuman cause in various places he does things he shouldn't be able to, kick darkseid in the gut and make him fall (yeah not joking even aguaman failed to make him move a centimeter) going toe to toe against Superman, taking Hugh falls and bug hits from other heros and Villans and healing from them like it's nothing
@@SevenZeroEleven Not to come across as a super mainstream/basic guy, but I was referring to Nolan's Batman portrayed by Christian Bale. He's actually vulnerable and almost dies several times. Yes, he too does unbelievable stuff like simply disappear in a second but that happens following a believable backstory about how he got his training. This is not to say that I hated the Batman played by Ben Affleck (in fact for a long time, he was the only thing I liked in the DCEU) but he's a bit too OP like you said.
@@hittingyouoverthehead with Christian Bale I agree 100% I love thoose movies cause he is actually a regular dude in a spandex suit but when I saw you were talking about batman I ment the Character Batman in general not a singular version of him, my bad
There's a reason why characters like Goku choose to have fights take place in empty wastelands. They know the dangers of fighting in populated areas. Heck, the main objective of a DBZ fight is to make sure that your opponent's Ki attack doesn't hit the ground or you can say that the stakes of a DBZ fight is the recklessness of Goku's Villain/ Opponent. So what I guess I'm trying to say is that the main objective of an air fight shouldn't be about aimlessly tossing your opponent to the ground, it should be a struggle to restrain the villain. Have creative ways for both the villain and the hero to go all out while the hero tries to prevent collateral damage
Usually, they benefit from the villains being honorable or just not really caring as well, like the case of Vegeta, who was intrigued by Goku, and also felt confident enough in victory that he didn't really care where the fight was. However, there have been exceptions to this, like in the Android Saga where Cell and the Androids often have the specific goal of wanton destruction in mind, and won't easily leave the city... So fights play out in the Urban area where the Z-Fighters find themselves heavily relying on just punches and kicks if they can help it. At least until the opponent blows up all the surroundings anyways and at that point it doesn't matter. It was also seen in a short film release prior to Super (though I forgot the name of it)- when the Villain destroys part of the environment putting the normal people (just Hercule and Bulma at that moment) at risk, they make a point to show the other Z-Fighters on damage control, keeping the debris from hurting them.
This is spot on and is usually the case with Superman in the comics aswell. This is why he has to hold back, to prevent harm to civilians or even his foes
True. Plus it is relevant to this topic to mention that in the earlier Christopher Reeves Superman films. That there arose a point in battle with Zod and his two other krytonian soiders that Superman realised the impact they were having in the city and indangering the regular human populace. That he used flight in order to leave the city and bait his opponents away from causing any further damage or harm to others.
A part of this is also how pristine these characters stay in these fights. Dragonball has tons of people flying and fighting, thrown into mountains, and we're shown that even these super powerful aliens still get bruised, cut, and their limbs broken.
Yeah that's the thing, not flying but the lack of impact on the environment and the characters, dbs gets fine with this cause we see the impact of every blast on the characters, which makes it more interesting, due they will survive? His injures are bast That's the deal with this stuff
No offense but dragon ball is not a good example of good fights. Objectively speaking they're really bad it's only carried by hype. Linking to the video, showing damage as a visual and showing damage as an actual effect are 2 different things to. It's all good bruising and breaking your character but if it doesn't have any effect it's practically just make-up. And dragon ball is one of THE biggest offenders of attacks having 0 weight to them
@@jmj0795 I disagree. Dragon ball fights are good but the pacing is the issue. Not knowing the timing of how long things take or the general scope of things can often hinder a fight.
Well, clearly the cameraman can sue for discrimination. As they are special and no other cameraman can do what they can do. Why should they get punished for being different? Oh wait...hold on. I think I ruined my defense on this one. I forgot the legal system is like in the United States. This guy is screwed as they don't act like Hollywood Zombies. In turn they are worthless as a cameraman. All because they are different.
What people forget a lot about "flying hero combat" is put great by Omni-man when he teaches Mark how to fight with it. You can get leverage from anywhere and it uses your muscles so its not just physical but, also mental which should effect the way they fly. Don't just fly straight with a punch, fly in a curve to get a super hook, use gravity to punch down harder than anyone grounded could. Also, without the resistance of the ground, hits won't hurt as much, punch a piece of wood loosely standing and it will fall over and be difficult to break, punch the same piece of wood when it's clamped in place and it can break.
I think part of the problem just comes from the fact that these heroes are limited by human anatomy and expectations while doing something that’s distinctly non-human. Like, when I think of the most impressive flight-fight scene I’ve ever seen, the 2010 movie Legend of the Guardians comes to mind. Not just because I loved the movie + the book series as a kid. But because the fight scenes felt unique and had weight/impact to them, as well as strategies that can only be done from the air (like spiraling down from above to take out an enemy patrol, or two soldiers grabbing an enemy’s wings to immobilize them.) I seriously recommend looking some clips up to see what I mean.
This is exactly what I was thinking about when watching this. When you punch someone your feet press against the ground, and both friction and your legs take up that force. When you are flying like a superhero there is only one force holding you in place, and it is your flight power. Depending on the exact characteristics of that force it would drastically change how you would hit somebody in the air. A punch can't depend on the ground to hold you in place, so you only have the strength of your flight power, so you should always get your full bodies momentum behind it or else you just move a bit backward. And how somebody like Thor flies, where he is more flinging himself around means a punch would be nonsensical.
Also the season one finale of Omni-man showing Mark how powerful they are compared to humans becomes terrifying when they just hover above the ground in front of a train. It’s super brutal, but more importantly it has a *purpose.*
As someone who grew up watching Dragonball Z watching fight scenes in the air don't really bother me that much. It's just films do them so poorly where they blur everything and make it move st 10x the speed to disorientate people.
I feel like noise has a very important role when it comes to these fights. You can tell when the Z fighters are flying fast through the air without even looking. And when they are thrown into the ground you *hear* that loud impact! Films could have citizens screaming in the background, or have a dramatic setting where maybe buildings are on fire. One of my favorite scenes are in Spider-Man 3 even with all of it's controversy, it showed Mary Jane Inside of a Car that was barely suspended in the air by Venom's webs. Everytime Spiderman would try to get to her, Venom would stop him. Then Sandman would show up out of nowhere and brutally attack Spiderman, and you would hear the surrounding citizens and news reporters in disbelief that their hero might die. One of my favorite scenes that have stuck with me.
I feel like animation, especially styles like DBZ, can manipulate the way they show you a mid-air hit to make it feel impactful. Like, they can squeeze a lot more value out of things like hitstop and can use techniques like stretching and squashing to really make a hit land regardless of the fact they're in the air and maybe, realistically, they shouldn't have the leverage to really make that kind of it. It probably also helps that we just have less expectations of realism when it comes to animation, and seeing similar techniques applied in live action might just look "wrong". This isn't a problem in comics for similar reasons, and because storytelling in comics can be very condensed. In a comic book fight you don't need to do something like hold the tension of civillians in danger for a full minutes-long fight, you can just establish that once because you only have so much page-space to work with and it's not expected that you necessarily track that. So yeah, when it comes to live-action movies, they really need to think harder about what they're doing and why these flying muscleman are body slamming each other.
@@kingzingo1784 Great example that, probably the only good part of that movie was that final scene, you felt the full force of Sandmans punches on peter because of the environment around them!
The problem here isn't just flight, it's the lack of intensity. The characters are not taking damage, there is no blood or bruises they're not even getting tired. They look the same throughout the fight which makes the fight is pointless for the hero and villain. Anime hangles this well.
I have an alternate hypothesis. It’s not flight that you have a problem with, but invulnerability. Look at it this way: imagine there’s a scene of flying superheroes who, unlike Shazam & Superman, can only fly. There’s no super strength or invulnerability. Then what happens when they hit the ground? Splat! It’s over, and the crash we can be sure is coming is in fact the end of the fight, or the solving of the problem. In such a fight every move still has weight, and thus would make for a good fight. For an example of this, look no further than Civil War, when Tony & Rhody go after the jet, but must face off against an aerial Vision & Falcon to do so. Vision is the only invulnerable candidate in the air, and knowing this fact forced a hushed silence over theaters everywhere when Rhody eventually did come crashing down. Had this fight been on land, but with pseudo invulnerable people, it would never have had such impact. All cards on the table though, I do think you’re on to something. Flight clearly requires a degree of suspended disbelief ground fights don’t. But, indestructible characters require even more, and when the two are combined, I think it’s man of steel aspect that does more damage than flight.
Why are people bothered with the "science" of a superhero not being affected by debrees or being smacked on buildings? the point of this battles is to put up a nice gigantic epic fight between two ridiculously OP characters.. we all know superman's powers, we all know goku's powers. we all know that they will not die if they fall from miles away, that's not the point.. and yes there IS danger! because the villain is powerful enough to do damage to the hero, so they are not invunerable.
@@Cangaca777 superhuman physics is one of those goofy nerd things that make fiction cooler if you can adhere to it without getting stuck in the minutae. For example, if Superman had a reveal that his power was tactile telekinesis (valid given most feats of strength), then it would allow for a Superman who uses his power in more creative contexts. Thus, more fun fight scenes and cooler overall stories. Relevant to flight? I'd love to see a story where the protag only has flight while still having to fight traditional superhumans. They'd have to be creative, knowledgeable, and prepared for each encounter, even if they're just doing variant divebomb tactics. Now, introduce something new: flying sniper/bomber. Green Goblin was a menace with only that artificial archetype, let alone incorporating true flight into the equation somehow. Tl;dr: No, it's not important, until A. You realize how dumb something looks or B. You realize how cool the alternative would be
@@pandemoniousivy4651 I think in general people should stop putting problems or concerns where they dont really exist. if superman has to fly and fight a flying villain so be it. if you can fly why the heck would you be stuck to the ground? there is nothing wrong with it.. and it's entirely justifiable in that scenario. and if it looks dumb then it's a artistic/creative issue... if you cut a sheet of paper the wrong way it's your fault, not the scissors.. if people have a problem with a superhero flying fight situation then why are they watching a super-hero movie? it's like watching a horror movie and being mad because you got a jumpscare.. alternatives are interesting yeah. but there is nothing wrong with airbourne fights. the latest dbz movie has some absolute glorious fights in the air!!
I’d say The Boys is pretty great for this. Homelander can fly, yet basically any real fight we see him in is usually grounded and u can truly feel the brutality of the blows and the effect of them on the world. He usually flies to escape, like in one of the new episodes.
@@saint.rahrah3663 yeah the boys also doesn't have a high budget to do CGI fights like that so that's really more of a victory by default, not by choice
While I agree with the premise. I thought the use of flying here was hilarious. That scene alone of Cap Marvel telling Savana he can’t hear him is great
One of the worst parts of being hit, is your momentum slamming your head into the ground. When you can fly, you can instantly negate that momentum. And when flying through concrete starts to feel like nothing, it instantly ruins that feeling of a fight.
On the other hand, it leave kids with imagination of superhero fighting in the air. Keep in mind that it's a kids movie. Kids will pick up his Shazam/Superman action figure and make it fly while fighting their other toys, knocking off building blocks, tossing the opponent around, etc. Sure critics won't enjoy being treated like a kid but if it's a fun movie, then we can enjoy it together.
@@skaionex Fair. That being said, I think it's still better than most mid-air fights because it utilizes the environment creatively. Its boringness might also be due to the fact that it's happening alongside arguably the best fight of the series (Zuko vs Azula) which was much more emotionally engaging.
@@nekoqueen5524 Don't worry, I also disagree, even though Azula vs Zuko was emotionally engaging and the visuals are awesome, I still think Aang's final battle is one of the best fight scenes in the show.
3:55 this is something Dragon Ball Z did right a few times. The characters would often lead the villains away from civilization and to a deserted area whenever they could.
But it's immediately ruined when that fight starts. Rapid punches and kicks don't work, launching someone into a mountain doesn't work...why is this fight happening? That's just the surface because the story writing as to why the fight is happening also doesn't work. DBZ has aged badly.
@@JessicaChastainFan That’s because DBZ never bothered to explain how ki attack works. The characters supposedly can blow up planets yet fight scenes conveniently just destroy some mountains or barely make a dent on their clothes. It’s visually cool but the inner consistency in the series is a complete mess, it’s usually up to the fans to make up stuff explaining what happens in the fights.
What’s your point? It’s not like the hero wants to be crashed in a building for people to die. Besides people with super vision or something like that can see if people are there. For example, iron man both comics and mcu can see if people are in any buildings or anywhere near him, Superman can also do that, anyone with X-ray or sensors can do that but not Thor or any of those heroes
@@masterofdragons82 but.. that is he's point? You said that the heros doesn't want to be crashed into building's for people to die but if that was case why would they throw the villains into building's as well? Like I don't see Superman giving a flying fuck about what he was doing and when Iron-man did the same thing to Hulk at least he shot four mini missiles into the building before so the building would cave in on itself instead of falling to side
Even dragon ball z figured out this a while ago. Granted this might be why the fights in the original dragon ball were so engaging since ring Knockouts pretty much require that you be on the ground kinda
In general dragon ball fights are better than most dbz fights. They feel more impact and have great choreography and don’t follow the same script so much
The coolest fighting scenes in dbz happen on the ground... Like the first goku vegeta fight has lots of them you can feel the impact on the ground ...goosebumps... Or the frieza goku fight on namek each punch and kick and move has mass and impact you can literally feel the force of it...
The difference between Chronicle and the other movies shown is that the main struggle of that in the air battle was Andrew being a threat to all the people on the ground. They didn't show it quite as brutally as they should have but that is the consequence of it and it was very real. Plus the flying perfectly set up the killing blow at the end. That sudden death was really well done.
@@b.s.a.suburbiaproductions840 I know that some creators will deliberately leave a typo or misspelling in a video because it prompts people to make a comment. Even someone saying "You're a dumbass, you spelled 'physics' wrong!" is good for the algorithm.
@@machiavelli612 I wouldn't say jojo references are anywhere near dead, they are down cause vento aureo is over but when stone ocean comes out it'll start up again Edit: I just checked ur profile and saw that u r subscribed to hamon beat, that explains it somewhat
Granted, it's not said outright as "One word: flying" in the script as far as I can tell. But yeah, "flying" seems to be the thing ruining fight scenes. Relative frames of reference help an audience to identify with what they're watching, and flight can add difficulties to that.
This is why Invincible has such incredible fights. It often switches back and forth between fighting in the air and ground. While fighting in the air, it shows the stakes at hand with how brutally all the civilians die. When on ground, it shows how brutally Invincible himself gets pummeled by his enemies
The other word being: invulnerable. Most of these characters in the air are so tough that a full force impact into a hard surface is usually an inconvenience, regardless of the power of the opponent or anything else.
That gives me an interesting idea for a superhero: What if there was a hero who could fly or whatever, but was _not_ crazily resistant to impacts from punches and such, and were actually effected like a real person? All the heros I see always seem to be so resistant that they can be smashed into cars or concrete and the obstacle bends or breaks against them instead of them going splat. I'm not sure I've ever seen a character with super powers _without_ that ability and think it could be a really interesting concept.
Yup! Well, kind of. I mean we’re supposed to believe that these people are on the verge of killing one another, THESE characters are who we’re supposed to be invested in. Yet instead it’s more, oh no, think of the kids! Which kind of defeats the purpose of creating this fight in the first place.
Nerdstalgic I understand where your at here, but the point of the fight wasn’t that they where trying to kill each other, but more so it was the sane one trying to calm down the crazy one, and protect the people that he was harming, whilst the crazy one is trying to kill the sane one (I forgot their names). It wasn’t a struggle of strength, but a struggle of will, which one will give up first. That’s why this fight scene still works, and is still enjoyable. You made it sound like it was a bad fight, when it was one of the most unique fights out there, showing the entire thing in the prospective of a civilian via the camera, and the danger that they are put through. But like I said, I understand where you’re coming from, and respect your opinion.
this reminds me of jotaro vs dio fight Spoilers: Before the fight Dio kills kakyoin in a flying fight scene and he also "almost" kills jotaro with the knife throws
The thing I really didn't like about the "Shazam" movie was that the child version of billy had somewhat of a mature personality, but the adult version had this very goofy, expressive, overreacting personality. It was weird seeing the kid act like an adult and then pull a 180 and act like a kid when he was an adult. I don't ever see anyone mention this..
I noticed this detail too when I first saw the movie. I took it as Billy having this deep-rooted psychological issue due to the fact that he didn't have his real mother around his life as he was growing up. To a kid, that pretty much forces you to "grow up" and develop maturity at a much earlier age. He developed trust issues and a slight juvenile tendency. Billy constantly felt like he had to prove that he could always take care of himself and that he doesn't need anyone. As Shazam, he didn't have to worry about all that for the first time since he's finally "big" and with superpowers. In a way he lets down his emotional walls whenever he's Shazam. I personally think adult Shazam is what Billy is meant to be on the inside with immature/childish tendencies finally being let out for the first time. Maybe the wisdom of Solomon has something to do with that too but that's just my take on Billy's character based on the movie. Zachary Levi probably could have taken it down a bit with his character though but it is what it is.
I think it's just how Billy is, he looks scrawny as a kid so he essentially has to keep himself quiet as to not get targeted, but as Shazam, the hero he has enough power to act as goofy and fun as he wants
Psychologically. Kids act like an adult. Adults act like theyre kids.. Also young billy gets to show his real enthusiasm whenever transforms into shazam. Like any kid would react if they ever got to have superpowers. It shows how they are just really kids if they are able to pretend and transform into adults.
spot on, i noticed it as well and wfound that one thing to be what i disliked the most about the movie, billy batson acted like a somewhat mature 10 year old, while shazam acted like an imature 6 year old, very jarring.
That was just one reasons I did not like the movie. Zachary Levi just came off too campy, goofy and cheesy. I debate whether it was a terrible director or terrible actor on this one.
I appreciate how you put a placed a big blocky word right in the middle of the screen to keep us slack jaws not just zoning into the fight scene and not listening to anything you're saying. Its smart. It's annoying, but I respect it.
when they were just “hovering in the air” it honestly looked like two dudes were just standing there bc there was NO WIND making the things on their body move (clothing, hair). These things only really move when the characters themselves are moving. as someone was raised in a city once you go over the 10th floor there is a bunch of wind blowing, even if its a relatively calm day/night weather wise. so every scene i see in the air and there’s little to no wind effects im immediately turned off
I feel like the problem you're describing doesn't come from flying in particular, it comes from filmmakers padding out fights with a bunch of action. Nothing about flying stops there from being stakes to the fight.
It does though... like he said they ALWAYS have to come back to the ground. Nothing meaningful happens in the air *unless* specific stakes have been made for the fight other than beating the shit out of each other.
@@TheNeilBlack Yes, there is. As outlined in this video. We dont understand the physics involved. Punches have no power and shoves are meaningless until they hit something.
Invincible had the benefit of being animated. Its much easier to believebly mess with physics and raise the stakes in an animated air fight than a live action/cgi one.
@@Tredhd well yeah, but it is still the same "two incredibly durable beings fly through stuff while fighting". And I think what sets invincible apart is not the animation or coreography of the fight. Those are good too, but what makes it so memorable, intense and awesome, is the story. It's not two strong guys beating the crap out of eachother until they land and the hero wins. It's an ideological battle between two people who care about eachother deeply, but who have come to blows over what they believe. And we as the audience are so caught up in their story, and the unfairly one sided fight, that we barely notice that it's another man of steel style sky battle. No, the audience is wondering about the outcome, and both Omni man's words and Marks heroic defience, hit harder than the punches being thrown. And that is what I think would fix the type of battles that the video complained about - writing so engaging and intense, that we the audience are sitting on the edge of our seats, without our mouths wide open, just wondering how will it end.
@@transformersrevenge9 The key with Invincible is that no one is impervious to damage... that is what truly makes the fighting top notch. Even Omniman was visibly hurt by the end of season 1. You cant tell me that those scenes would have hit as hard if neither Mark or his father had a scratch on them. Fact is non-verbal story telling can never be entirely carried by verbal story telling.
Yeah i think its like the other dude said. It was 2d animation which had the benefit of making things alot more impactful but it still happened the same way how he described. The fight happens in air then becomes grounded for the end and the real threat was just people trying to survive the fight if yknow what i mean.
OK, couple of things. First, the example of Thor Ragnarok is poor. They're not flying. Bifrost is a teleport, therefore, doesn't count as flying. They can move in only one direction and that scene happens after the titular character is stripped of his ability to fly. Second, seriously, what is your beef with Man of Steel action scenes? What do you mean we don't care about the reality of those scenes? That fight with Zod in the mid air is visualized masterfully. I feel every punch, every throw, every movement. Zaddy and VFX artists put a lot of thought and work into making that sequence have weight. Like when punches create shockwaves, or when you can see the realistic body and weight physics. What exactly did you expect to see? Man of Steel has the best superhero flight scenes in anything. They're done masterfully. Especially when flying scenes can easily look corny and weightless. Like, going back to your example with Thor, can you actually remember any of his flight scenes? He barely flies in all of the movies he appears in because MCU filmmakers know how hard it is to craft a flight scene and make it look good.
Why did Thor n Tony keep the fight on the ground? Nerdstalgic: To increase stakes Marvel: And make Cap feel left out?! Are you looking to start a Civil War?!!!
FOr real though, neither Tony nor Thor are very maneuverable in the air. They both go forward fast and have trouble turning. If either is airborne and the other isn't, the airborne one is at the disadvantage, a clear target for blasts with lessened ability to dodge.
@@BardicLasher Especially Thor! Far as I'm concerned, aerial fights done right are purely for spectacle. Don't care what anyone says Man of Steel's final fight was one of my favorites in superhero history.
Even ground fights in superhero movies suffer from the lack of definable stakes cos we have no idea how strong they actually are. See Thanos for instance, barely flinching against the Avengers, even the Hulk but Drax, freaking Drax, marched his knee right to the ground n Nebula could use a stick to whip his face sideways
@@ebewelepraise531 that's why I love winter soldier so much because they aren't God levels of power and they bleed. You can see how much strength they have and Cap is in serious danger throughout most of the movie
One thing though: Superman vs Zod was half in air, but the fight was IMO of the most ruthless fights because they used their speed on the ground to attack each other. They hit a lot of things with that speed. The physics of that was fun to watch. It was more than moving at light speed at slo-mo. It was like a tank bullet hitting things. The end result also added to the realism.
Superman vs Zod is probably one of the one examples that could feel it all. The only real downside was honestly just the 'invulnerability' concept because it felt like all that amounted to well. nothing. It wasn't like earlier where he'd actually break their helmets.
superman can break his neck, but can't hurt zod with the punch and also when zod get hit by the building and the ground hes still okay I don't man I don't think physics works like that
@@chaosfox2852 then your just looking at things in a single point of view althought superman was barely physically hurt all the emotional damage from the millions of dead civilians is the weight you should be feeling
Spoiler: To me, Shazam's climax was Billy accepting his mother doesn't want him, then turning to save his real new family... paid off sharing his power with them MARVELously
That fight was more emotional than physical, and if you focus on the damaged caused by the characters, you notice how Andrew didn't care anymore about the collateral while the other one whose name I can't remember right now was being more careful
@@marshetshimelis5339 yeah but he’s still not much of a “hero”. There can be 2 villains, or a morally grey character and a villain. Or a reckless superpower abuser with such a vendetta the villain they don’t even care about how much they destroy, as long as that villain is no longer. I am saying this as an unashamed lover of all things superheros and superpowers.
i hope you know they made a whole sequel where Superman is taken to court for what happened and the the world is split between people who see him as a hero and others who see him as a threat...
One other thing I noticed in that the mall fight sequence in 'Shazam' is that it involves "near ground" flight and closed spaces. This adds to the feeling of the space being limited (and closer) and thus makes the scene visually and mentally feel more grounded and hits closer to home because there are walls/buildings all around the characters, and the onlookers/bystanders are close enough too. It intensifies the stakes and puts more limitations on the characters. This is also why the highway/supermarket fight sequence between Superman and Faora in 'Man of Steel' feels and looks so good. These scenes are in contrast to just fight sequences high up in the sky with no limiting space around, with the human bystanders far below on the ground, and with the characters just smashing each other into buildings or onto the ground. I feel that when showing fight sequences involving flying superheroes, it's better to show "near ground" flight with physical spaces and people much closer around them, than them being high up in the sky.
I think this is at least partially a problem with having flying indestructible bricks as protagonists and giving their foes identical nearly powersets every time and the flying and related problems are more of a byproduct of that. Still good food for thought though.
That is my main issue with heroes like superman , his powers , costume is so basic yet he's portrayed as indestructible so their force to write dumb things like krytopnite , so when comparing him to other heroes like iron man he has not aged well
@@martinmorles1 Well, to be fair, Superman is the codifier for the superhero genre. He's going to be a generic superhero by definition. Having said that, he does have some issues: -They kept giving him new powers without any consistent theme necessarily. Originally, the character was basically Mr. Incredible, for the record. You want to give your heroes a 'theme' of sorts to their abilities. For example, let's say a hero who can control light, and therefore can make laser beams, create holograms, turn invisible, etc. -They made him overpowered, moreso than really serves the plot most of the time. To some extent, part of his character is him being invincible in a lot of ways and the responsibility that carries, but you can still have that and have him be beaten down occasionally. -Kryptonite is bad as a weakness for two reasons: It ought to be really rare, and it's also something that doesn't have a lot of "real world" context. Basically, the only situation in which it would exist is if a bad guy planned to fight Superman. It's a "Superman is arbitrarily able to lose" button. If it were something more mundane, like say, harmful radiation in general, you could have interesting scenarios like Superman having to save people from a nuclear powerplant or something, and it wouldn't be contrived.
@@MatthewCampbell765 another minor ways are electricity, he cant burn to death but otherwise is as vulnerable as any human to being unconscious and stunned and magic, that affects him as if he is a normal human, except when the mage is not creative and just shot magic laser beans, instead of turning him into stone or something like that
@@MatthewCampbell765 If one of the problems you have w/ Kryptonite is that it's not rare enough, then wouldn't making radiation his weakness have the same problem if not be even more convenient? I mean, it's not like it would be hard to get a hold of radiation, especially for Luther, a rich business man & super genius, or even steal it from other countries, stealing radiation would be piss poor easy for the LoD.
@@martinmorles1 It seems like in recent years, Superman has become a walking Deus ex Machina, he's too strong & has too many powers that come outta nowhere. It's so boring to watch Superman, Superman rarely struggles & loses/dies, but on the rare occasion he does, he just comes back! It also doesn't help when there are times when villains use his weakness & they don't work, I have seen so many times when Superman just get's so angry that he overpowers his weakness, like what? Just one piece of Kryptonite brings you to your knees & yet you get so pissed that you're able to rip apart Luthor's Kryptonite suit?
Shazam literally ripped off that part of Kung Fu Panda without adding anything new. I love Shazam, it's a great movie, but in terms of that scene, it's ironic how the animated movie did the joke more maturely than the live action movie.
Flying isn't the problem, merely the lazy and unimaginative way it has been portrayed in films so far. Flying could look good but it needs choreography to not come across plain and boring, the physics behind it need to be consistent and rich in details to keep the immersion despite its absurdity. The characters fighting need to use flight in a strategic manner and their airborne fight-style should be efficient first and only flashy on occasions. Flying should come with an interesting set of rules to have pros and cons, so there are situations where it's worth using and and others where not and some where it's very risky but could have great payoff. But above all the viewers should feel like it makes sense and things aren't just made up on the fly. Flying should be used in small bursts opportunistically whenever it makes sense, just because someone is flying they shouldn't fly all the time. Also landing could be done not just on the ground but on any surface for a momentary increase in maneuverability or to have something solid to blast off from as a surprise attack. Flying looks bad because making it look good takes talent, effort, time and money and most films cheap out on at least one aspect.
Yes, it always baffles me how someone just stay in the air like forever just because they can fly. If non-flying fighters can use terrain like building or debris as foothold for mid-air maneuvers, why don't flying fighters do the same but much more effectively thanks to their essentially gravity defying power.
If they really bothered to take the time and make the inertia work (ex: how much time it would take them to slow to a stop, before changing directions which, without any friction would take a lot more time than just turning on a dime on the ground), had consistent G-forces involved and (for the heroes that can fly that aren't immune to damage) a far more careful approach to colliding with literally anything so that they don't break their ankles, arms, etc. upon impact because they could be moving at the same speed you would if you got in a car accident and were flung out the windshield, I think flying fights could be a lot more interesting and "grounded". Make the physics work, make the stakes of actually physically being in the situation feel real and all of a sudden I'm buying your fight a hundred times more. And for the love of god, if you have a character that flies by beating their wings or something study big birds (eagles, vultures, cranes) and see how they do it. (I'm looking at you X-Men movies) They have some of the highest potential of all kinds of superhero fliers to look really grounded in reality (birds fight midair all the time, its super well documented and can be pretty fucking epic) since we know how birds are supposed to look and feel flying. None of that hovering with tacked on wings that beat in midair with absolutely no resistance and no consequence on the actor. [end of rant, sorry]
Nein I don’t think it really baffles me that much. It actually makes sense that a person with flying in their skillset would have a lot of endurance for flying. I would imagine that a person who can fly, and has flown for years, it’d become as second nature as walking, and especially if you’re in a position where you’re exercising that skill frequently (being a superhero)
@@ViridianForests All due respect but you might want to pay a little more attention to the source material. Literally every scene mentioned in this video with the exception of one (Chronicle) had superheroes with superhuman endurance, dexterity, and strength. Superman and General Zod aren't worried about their ankles. Even in the case of Chronicle you're talking about beings that have literally developed the ability to sightlessly and seemingly without need of thrust defy gravity. This means that at the very least they can use telekinesis to compensate for things like inertia or at the best they can literally control gravity itself in close proximity to some extent. Unless you have the short on how a being that can control gravity is just as subject to the forces of physics you described you don't really have an argument. And that's only if we ignore the superhuman endurance.
Honestly I personally think a good example of this kind of deliberate choreography is the Metropolis fight scene from Superman II. The movie has issues to be sure not the least of which is the writing but the choreography is pretty close to what you're describing in my opinion. It's the first super powered fight scene and Zod quickly realizes Supermans care for innocents around him is a weakness. Something that only happens right before the end in Man Of Steel after they've thrown each other through every building that's two stories or more and some that aren't.
Bud this has nothing to do with film or writing.. It is just poor choreography. A good choreographer would use flight in an Intresting way... never change your script for "better" fight scenes
That was on purpose, to highlight how your brain can’t understand flight physics. It switches to the correct spelling when he starts talking about grounded physics your brain *can* understand
As an anime enjoyer this is very different. While yes the invulnerability applies a lot to this in most air fights, a lot of impact is shown and you can tell when it’s important and not boring. And when it’s not airborne fights (like demon slayer (my fav)). It really does feel so much more powerful when they make sense in every move they throw.
I think the problem is less flying, and more super heroes like superman and shazam being literally invulnerable so hits have no weight. The things you said were the problem don't need to be a problem with flying. Like, there's no reason flying through a concrete and glass building should feel weightless and with 0 impact, unless they come out of the other side unscathed. And if they can do that, getting punched in the face while standing would not be that different.
I agree. But marvel also has a big share of character staking building busting punches and they get up laughing and making jokes remember thor vs hulk? Anyways I agree with you. If two characters with about the same power hit each other they should be hurt by the mere punch or kick, the same way we get hurt when somebody hits us
Yeah, same for the civilians getting hurt, if it's just some regular dude flying and punching another then there's no reason for there to be any civilian casualties. Also, I don't see how civilian casualties is a problem, I mean it's just that we see them in DC movies unlike in Marvel movies where we see alien invasions and islands being destroyed but no casualties.
What you point out is why the flying fight in "Chronicle" had stakes and kept me engaged. Especially because the characters were shown to have telekinesis but no other special healing or invulnerability powers.
@@deathsdoor07 we never saw casualties during the battle itself, we were just told about it years after. It was also long after Man of Steel which is from where they got the inspiration to do that just like Batman V Superman which had came out just a month before.
I feel like a lot of your problems are with the "invincible hero" rather than flight. A lot of the same critiques apply to ground scenes, such as the fight in the small town in man of steel.
I would argue that in Man Of Steel, Zach made me feel the weight behind every punch. It had a Dragon ball feel. It's pure strength, no magic, nothing fancy just pure fisicality. The complete decimation of Metropolis made it even more believable. Where as Shazam is more like a fan film made for 12 year olds.
Maybe but it was meaningless because unlike DBZ, theres no nuance in fighting style or interesting strategy to defeat each other. It felt like an expensive video game cut scene showing the devastation instead of an interesting fight with real stakes
Imma have to disagree on the Man Of Steel point respectfully; I feel like up until Supes did his deed to end Zod, it was a stalemate destruction derby Rock-em-Sock-em sesh that would have seen no end otherwise. This might just be me, but I didn't see even a glimmer of the refinement that Dragon Ball can have in its stakes of destruction. Typically destruction is emphasized as involving civilian casualties, except in the wimpier English dubs; Superman V. Zod caused billions in property damage and untold casualties/injuries only tangentially mentioned in BvS. Almost makes me agree with Batman if I were seeing the footage of a city being levelled over an alien tizzy.
Exactly I don’t think the flying is the issue. All these superheroes are literally SUPER heroes. It’s difficult to see damage being done when they’re so strong
@@PasteGames No flying is definitely the issue because it robs the audience of the feeling of physics mainly because you can never actually see Newton’s laws in effect for example if a fight is on the ground and one person get punched we can physically see them have to exert a equal opposite force to stop themselves from going flying and we would see the true damage of the punch by how much damage the ground takes when their back leg presses against the ground even if we don’t see it On their physical bodies however in the air when someone gets punched you can never tell exactly how much damage is given unless they hit the ground or a building because they just apply that opposite force to the air which we can’t see so if they have no clear physical damage it’s as if the punch never happened and Robs the viewer of a connection to said punch same with say 2 beams that collide canceling each other and sending them back but they recover in the air what was the point of said beam attack
Pretty much you won’t be able to get a finish till one person get tired/or gets hit to the ground where physics actually matter to establish that connection of damage and what you basically get is a fight with no connection until the climax making the entire fight almost forgettable.for example I just watched this video but when I try to remember the fights in the video the most memorable moments are easily when someone got sent through a building/into a wall or into the ground or they hit the other person with something grounded by physics like a car/truck. I agree durability 100% makes it worse tho a flying scene with 0 visible damage is Terrible
@@NACentDSTM The point of said beam attack would have been to show that both characters' beams are equal in power. Removing it from the fight probably wouldn't change its outcome but the same thing can be said about a drawn beam battle that occurs on the ground.
@@NACentDSTM I don’t know because animations typically do flying fights pretty well. The issue is definitely not flying or physics. I think movies are just scared to show their heroes with bruised and battered faces therefore durability is the issue. Imagine if punches were being landed in the air but everytime you saw their face there was a new cut or bruise because of the actual fight. What if there was a scene in which the two flying fools were coming at each other but one got knocked out and was incapable of flying at that point. That would be a lot more interesting than someone just hitting the ground. It would give us a sense of danger instead of oh they’ll hit the ground and get back up. Just because someone’s in the air doesn’t mean they can’t take damage, but that’s the way a lot of directors typically think.
This is why there should be more winged heroes, because we as viewers understand the basic physics of wing powered flight, and the flapping wings makes gravity an actual thing. Although you have to remember that if the wings get damaged, flight goes away. And both fliers are aware of that. So remember that they're probably aiming for each others wings. Could provide some interesting problems, such as making wing armor or just armor in general light enough to fly with but still protective.
A bit like Falcon. Whenever there's a flight and fight scene, I'm extra conscious of his wings because I know they can take damage and he'll lose his ability to fly.
i think they have tried with xmen but its too expensive to make it realisticaly or just wings on humans is dumb and it just doesnt work with physics,specially if you want to hover .
Well the main issue with the major bad films is that they try too show off their techniques, characters and cgi, rather than the story, which leads to these other issues, if you stop caring about showing off your characters, actors etc, you can tell a much better story in the fight that shows them off as a byproduct and hence can have things for example winged battles and later show them off when they are forced to the ground, but it gives the flying a purpose. This works well in the MCU because most characters with flight have clear weaknesses that can be exploited.
@@ChefofWar33 exactly, all the scenes where the suit loses power mid air (avengers when tony almost died, civil war with Rhodes) its super high stakes bc they could have actually died even in the suit. Super just pops back up like a 50 story drop resulting in your face literally smashing concrete is nothing, not a scratch on him.
one thing that helps in my opinion are obstacles the characters can springboard off of. we don't understand the physics in the air very much, but when we see the ground/wall crumple, crack, or crater just from the force of them launching off it, it tells us just how hard they're actually hitting and flying at the other dude. another thing is speed. instead of dragging out a busting through a building or series of rocks scene. a wide shot of them just blasting through all of it once before hard stopping on something solid or the ground feels more impactful, like "ooo, that's gotta hurt" even if you don't grasp how tough those materials really are. then just interacting with props on the ground or taking brief intermissions to the ground helps too. knocking a dude up, following him up, then throwing him back down or using the flight as mostly a fast method of transport to get to different landmarks/set pieces/objects the guys use in the fight is really cool. like picking up a car, using a ferris wheel, flying through subways, crashing through buses, etc. stuff like that at least make the fight have more memorable set pieces you can call back on, making the fight more memorable
Anime like Dragon Ball Z - One Punch Man - Etc, can do really well with flight fights - Combo attacks broooo To be fair they usually do pretty well with creating crazy high stakes situations
It works with anime and especially one punch man because there a lot more effects and lines to show emotion in the scene and also one punch man is just really really good
Is all about how the action is presented. For all the spectacle, super hero movies lack in stylization. So something that isnt a problem in anime and cartoons becomes on because you dont have the stylish tricks they use to sell the action. Just compare any spiderman movie against spiderverse to know what i mean.
Plus Anime has it down to a science far better than any live action movie. Look at AoT swinging compared to Spider-Man in live action movies. Even in comics Spider-Man's Web-swinging is far faster compared to the Movies. Even in Animated Super Hero movies when it comes to flight has more weight compared to their counter-parts that are in live action movies. The fighting is so much better to watch. Movies today keep Super Hero movies to Grounded, when there should be style type fighting. Funny Cartoons been doing it for years. Meanwhile Live Action still suck at it.
From what I understand Thor can't actually fly. It is his hammer propelling him forward that makes him able to be airborne. Just thought I would point that out when you claimed he could fly.
Correct! I didn’t feel the need to explain that because I thought most people understood this. But yes, his hammer allows him what is essentially the power of flight, not with the degree of nuance as someone like iron man obviously, however.
@@Nerdstalgic also add this, he can fly freely in his pure lightning form from Ragnarok now also as seen in infinity war he was flying with storm breaker.
Yeah, so I feel like that piece of evidence for the argument can be basically thrown out. It would likely put Thor at a massive disadvantage if he even tried to go up in the air.
@@bryanlanda really? I just remembered how boring they are.... I'd rather watch Goku vs Chichi or Tien vs Yamcha again more than Goku vs Cell. The fights are stupidly boring when characters just teleport around wherever they want to be. The fights are flashy, sure....but they have no substance or hype. I'm reminded of the Bleach meme with the characters flash-stepping behind each other over and over across the horizon line. Its boring 😴 if trying to be played off as serious. Though if its being used for comedy then it can be a bit entertaining.
@@taylorhillard4868 You just like a different style of combat. Both DBZ and say Man of Steel had incredible fight scenes. But they're both different. Saying that either one doesn't have impact or substance or hype is entirely personal preference.
The one problem with this take is about Chronicle. The flying scene is what the movie has been building up to, its narrative peak. It DOES feel partially disconnected and partially human because the entire story is arguably about someone losing his humanity. This is the point where he breaks away from the grounded control that he's been struggling with the whole movie, there's been a progression of him losing his moral guide to use his powers responsibly or morally. The fight scene is intentionally and wonderfully above normal human understanding and context because that's now how the protagonist sees himself. His friend then has to meet him on his level in an attempt to connect, which he has failed to do the ENTIRE movie. This is a great video and maybe I'm biased as a massive fan of Chronicle, but that's my two cents.
Came here to say that thank you, And in chronicle I actually can feel the PHYSICS of them flying they look so awkward and hard to fly like how a human would probably be .
I found it a little funny that he talked about the lack of tangible threat to the characters while it showed Andrew flying into a lamp and being stunned by it.
Chronicle is brilliant and lastingly affective. Love that single shot of the dad being obliterated in the hospital bed. The disconnect of cv surveillance video and no sound was so profound and emotion eliciting
The Matrix Revolutions tried to alleviate the physics issue by using rain as an echoing effect for impacts - having raindrops fantastically scatter around on each punch, get scattered by Smith/Neo's clothing. It still has all the other issues of course - you get no sense of momentum effect from travel/acceleration. IMO, a great addition to superhero fly-fights would be if a movie could establish both characters cannot shoot impulsively in a given direction - they have to accelerate, and so a lot of their big motions thrusting out at each other come from pushing off something or wallrunning; leading to an expression of creativity in the ways they come at each other.
Shazam is one of my favorite super hero movies ever. IMO it’s an incredible film. What is the best non MCU super hero movie? ALSO: Be sure to check out my *phsyics* lesson lol spent a week on this and have no clue how I missed that! Jokes aside, I think it’s the physics of impact, not of flying that concerns me the most. Obviously these characters are defying the laws of physics, so we have to find a new way to appreciate what’s happening.
The dark knight it’s one of the greatest superhero movies and one of the greatest movies of all time and it’s still being talked about almost 12 years later.
I would like to point to the finale of Avatar: The Last Airbender as a counterexample. Aang vs Ozai is a GREAT flying sequence and the impact is really felt every blow. The problem lies more in the fact that most superheroes who can fly are also super durable, meaning getting tossed into a building won't matter them at all, and thus there's no real momentum or impact. Chronocicle could've been so good because though they have telekinesis, they were still just dudes, but they still have them tank a thrown bus like it's nothing. If they hadn't done that, the stakes of flying would've been much greater.
This is mainly a problem when 2 virtually invincible characters fight. You still feel a sense of danger if you know that being thrown through a building will actually hurt the character.
Well, when the enemy is stuck grounded, flying gives tactical adv. While if both sides can, sometimes flying could make you more vulnerable. Falling can suck, and your also flying enemy knows that, and can use it against you. From a realistic tactics standpoint, itd make sense to mix flying and ground tactics
@@muzza302 He is definitely not a superhero, it's just a thought he had. And the video does not give any clue on how to combat someone mid air, since we are probably not going to see anything like that irl as of right now.
As someone who practices martial arts, you've got a point. By having a low center of gravity, it allows power in all sorts of strikes. Throwing strikes in the air without a moving start can never really be all that powerful.... Then again Green/White/Red/Red/Black/Drakkon Power Ranger actor "Jason David Frank" has "the most boards broken during skydiving world record" so take what I say with a grain of salt.
to be fair, they clearly have the ability to put power in their strikes since they can propel themselves. it's not exactly the same as trying to hit something while free falling or just being suspended in the air
@@wldnrkls Imagining hypothetical fight-physics is quite straining. Well, seeing how jet packs are coming into existence, perhaps we can see how a real hand-to-hand air fight will look in the near future.
Honestly I think the problem with the flying is the "both characters can fly" aspect of it, which is just a consequence of the "hero and villain are mirrors of each other" issue that is so pervasive in superhero films. The trick to pretty much any good superhero fight, in my opinion, is power diversity. Having two Kryptonians with identical powersets fighting each other gets dull because you know neither one can really do much to counter the other... other than just do the same move back. When both characters can fly, that turns into launching into each other over and over again until one of them hits the ground. This is why I'm baffled by the fact we have yet to see a live action Superman movie where he tackles one of his most enduring villain types in the comics... the giant kaiju monster/evil robot. In THOSE circumstances, suddenly flying makes sense as a tactic because it gives Superman a way to look a towering monster in the face, or get away from its giant fists, or otherwise confuse it.
Idk why this popped into my head, but the “both characters can fly” thing made me wonder how would someone make a chess based fight interesting? Like... same pieces same rules? In that case I guess it comes down to how you use those pieces
Both characters can fly could be really interesting if they can't fly in the same way. If one has wings they need to beat to fly like a bird or a bat and the other can hover like superman but both are limited by the same laws of inertia and stuff, it can be a really interesting fight. The first hero can whack the other with its wings, but also presents a bigger target and we as the audience know that if they wings are hurt, they will plummet. The first hero could also have finer control (using tail feathers maybe?) and easier breaking midair than the second hero, but the second hero could work up to greater speeds and also only have the known condition of "if they fall unconscious, they'll fall". The second hero could want to use a smaller space to be able to push off of objects easier and would be faster on the ground, since the first hero's wings (and maybe tail) would get in the way there. There could be a big push and pull between both trying to get to a favorable environment for one and not the other. You could even out the stakes even more for both parties, making it seem like either could win if they manage to make their strategy overpower the other, or after establishing their limitations, use their opponent's strategy against them. If its always the same vs the same then it gets boring fast, be it in flying fights or fisticuffs in any other movie. Its apples vs apples anyways, even if one's a green apple and the other is a honeycrisp. Who cares? It's the same thing re-skinned. But if its apples vs oranges, if it's two types of fruit, two types of fighters who need to learn about the other, who present weaknesses and advantages over each other that aren't the same, then things get a lot more interesting.
@@ViridianForests ye I like it where with magical abilities, there are different types of magic and subsections of control over that type of magic. Cus as you said with the 2 flight types it is more fun. Another way to make it better is if they are using completely different types of magic but they are both expiremental. What mean is in the avatar, Aang's ability isn't flight it is the ability to control air but his staff can turn into a glider and he uses the air to give him lift, making him fly. In that case the person uses their ability in an interesting way by understanding their powers and expirementing with them, which isn't shown a lot in super hero movies. Like they only train for 2 reasons, 1to control their powers or 2 ,to make them stronger (like training flight to fly faster) The only heroes I know of that expirement with their abilities are heroes that use gadgets not super powers and that is because usually they are the smart people. And that Ladies and gentlemen concludes my Ted talk
I think its an issue of creativity, not flying in general. Flying gives you near limitles possibilities, they can go anywhere, attack from any direction, dodge instantly, move without needing to rely on an external object ect. One thing I learned as a musician is that when you have unlimited options, you do the same thing you did the last time, you think the same way, you act the same way, and the result is the same. But when you have constraints, you are forced to work around them to make something interesting, you can no longer do what you did the last time because the constraints won't allow you to, so you end up with a different result. Two incredibly strong characters, flying around punching/hitting/zapping eachother, has almost no constraints. But cucially, all the constraints are either idendical, or very similar, no matter who the characters are or which movie they're in, so even in different franchises it still feels the same. Conversely, a character like Spiderman has constraints, he needs to be able to shoot a web at an object solid enough to hold his weight, and the web needs to be able to get there in time without being blocked by something, and the result of the web sling needs to behave how the audience would expect. So unlike a superman style character, he can't always move any direction he wants. Obviously its still possible to make a lazy spiderman fight sequence, but its inherently more constraining and allows you to be more creative. A good example is environment. Take the Superman and Zod fight and change the location, put them in the middle of the desert. The fight would by enlarge be the same, two dudes punching eachother in the air. But take Spiderman out of NYC and put him in a desert, now all of a sudden he is out of his element, severely handicapped and can no longer rely on his webswinging. The writers are now forced to do things differently purely because of context. These restrictions aren't nearly as easy to impose when the characters are free to move however they wish regardless of the environment.
Dude. Theres no way. No freaking way. You can't be human. I say it on almost every video but the frequency at which you put out these videos and the absolute top quality of them is mind blowing. I know its not your intention but by contrast you make other youtubers look like lazy complacent opportunist. I can't imagine the amount of hard work, research, and editing that you must put into your craft in order to consistently deliver a premium product in tour videos. Keep up the amazing work nerdstalgic. We are all grateful for the work you put into your craft. Thank you
I think it’s less about fighting in the air, and more about how it’s handled. Like...literally every superhero air fight scene I’ve ever seen feels exactly the same. The outcome and dynamics of the fight are always super predictable. I wanna see one end with someone losing while they’re in the air, or going out into space. I wanna see one where they actively avoid buildings because they know smashing into one would hurt. Air fight scenes could be cool but they never are.
@@luistorres6956 it really sucks lol a lot of them are scared to take risks, ig for good reason one bad movie can mess things up for a lot of the people involved
It actually makes a LOT of sense for superheroes to take fights to the air if, say, it pulls their enemy from a crowded area. Superman and Zod could go to the atmosphere (and do, briefly) and I can imagine Superman trying to drag Zod there to minimize damage to the people. You can still get them to knock each other through asteroids and satellites for impact, or create sonic booms to show how it feels.
I felt like his argument was pretty weak, it was mostly built on "physics" and threat to the characters which he mostly argued was not present when in flight but come on, they're super beings, just because they're in the air doesn't mean their punches no longer hurt or that getting slammed through buildings isn't really hurting them. The threat is each other and they are trying to hurt each other and sometimes in thr process they hurt those around them. Maybe if he argued something along the lines of superheroes that fight in the air never really end the fight in the air and instead end on the ground which is super repetitive, then he would have a pretty good argument but this one seems half-assed.
@Ben John He is talking about the title says "The One Word Ruining fight scenes" and the only single word in the thumbnail is "stop" hence Guy Person is referring to the one word that is ruining the fight scenes as "Stop"
@brightblackhole it's not about then saying it, it's the idea of poor physics in flight scenes. that's literally what the entire video was about. not them yelling stop
Can’t say I disagree. What I’ve also learned is that fights in the air is also the most boring thing to shoot. Definitely something I’m keeping in mind for the sequel.
The way you remain open to criticism and feedback even after making successful feature films is really inspiring.
@ponysmasher man as stated, I LOVED what you did with Shazam. From Lights Out on you have easily been one of my favorite directors. Interesting to hear you say that shooting them isn't that fun either, hadn't really considered that. Looking forward to Shazam 2.
Wow! Amazing to see you here. :) Great to be able to get that little insight into your experience of production. While I love the availability of content that streaming/digital has brought about, I do miss watching director commentaries. Perhaps I’ll have to snag this on Blu-ray to see if I can hear a bit more about production. Seeing your comment here makes me even more excited for the sequel. :)
Weird how fights while flying seem to work just fine in animation...
dragonball z has good flying fighting scene, tho i woulnt know how thatd be replicated in live action
Me seeing the thumbnail:
Yes, I freaking hate the word "STOP" and it ruins all superhero fight scenes.
.... what was the 1 word?
@@carealoo744 no it was physics
Same
Like what makes the person thinks stop would work?
Also, "ENOUGH!" is just so overused and annoys me every time I hear it
This dude: fighting in mid air is bad because there’s no physics and impact is missing
Me: I can’t see anything because of the motion blur
Another reason mid-air fights are boring
Same
"Fuck motion blur"
~a certain tech vtuber named linus
The one dude who breathes bourne movies:
WTF YOU TALKING ABOUT MAN YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE WHEN HE PUNCHED AND WHERE RIGHT BEFORE THE CUT YOU JUST CAN'T APPRECIATE THE STYLE
yes.
"They become a danger to their world, not to each other"
Number one problem I have with super fights. So the "hero" throws a villain through a building. Hero has a code not to kill. But they toppled over a building full of people. Usually sparing the villain. What?
yeah that's the whole point of series from both DC and Marvel (injustice , civil war like genres) . Like "the boys" on amazon and many more. Let us have our entertainment and eat it too, you heathen.
Especially Invincible, civilians actually die when the heroes fight.
@God is a stupid idiot f*cking assh*ole bit*ch edgy
when an important character dies it's a tragedy, but when a skyscraper with thousands of people inside colapses during a fight, nobody gives a shit
Invincible
I think the problem here is not flight but invulnerability.
Take invincible, every punch in the air has weight because we see the consequences of that hit.
Also the fight between Korra and Zaheer in Legend of Korra. Flight isn't the issue. A fight between two invulnerable people isn't compelling.
I think in a practical sense, it's the weight and momentum of the characters.
Which is kinda just the other side of invulnerability. Like, in Invincible- and actually in Korra- a well-placed hit knocks an opponent out pretty much every episode, so it makes sense for the characters to be dodging and deflecting, and that involves movement. Combined that with the fact that realistically animated movement is another major thing that both Invincible and Avatar focused on getting right, and it's not even comparable to the Man of Steel sky-hugging session of a fight
@@bobbymeyers6473
Exactly. The avatar state may be insanely powerful, but it's not immortal. Dying in the avatar state is always a risk, and it was certainly a risk when Korra fought Zaheer in the season 3 finale. Invulnerability makes fights feel like they have lower stakes, especially if combatants don't even take damage when getting hit repeatedly.
I think that your point balances the video’s. I think if the characters are invulnerable (think two guys with plot armor) you can get away with it if you’re able to lie in a language we understand.
You’re right, even if I love good choreography.
That said. My favorite fights are from properties like Chainsaw Man and Attack On Titan where people get utterly mauled in moments, chunks torn out of them and whole halves of the cast die because everyone’s out of their depth.
@@bobbymeyers6473 both of you are referring to animation, which has an advantage over film
This is why Spider-man has generally always been appealing in terms of stakes. He's literally dangling by a thread (spider web) all the time.
DUDE WHY DID I NEVER THINK OF THAT
That's exactly right. I also kind of see the appeal of Batman now. He's just a human without any superpowers. He's vulnerable and every blow that he takes has an impact on him.
@@hittingyouoverthehead but then again batman also ends up feeling like a superhuman cause in various places he does things he shouldn't be able to, kick darkseid in the gut and make him fall (yeah not joking even aguaman failed to make him move a centimeter) going toe to toe against Superman, taking Hugh falls and bug hits from other heros and Villans and healing from them like it's nothing
@@SevenZeroEleven Not to come across as a super mainstream/basic guy, but I was referring to Nolan's Batman portrayed by Christian Bale. He's actually vulnerable and almost dies several times. Yes, he too does unbelievable stuff like simply disappear in a second but that happens following a believable backstory about how he got his training.
This is not to say that I hated the Batman played by Ben Affleck (in fact for a long time, he was the only thing I liked in the DCEU) but he's a bit too OP like you said.
@@hittingyouoverthehead with Christian Bale I agree 100% I love thoose movies cause he is actually a regular dude in a spandex suit but when I saw you were talking about batman I ment the Character Batman in general not a singular version of him, my bad
There's a reason why characters like Goku choose to have fights take place in empty wastelands. They know the dangers of fighting in populated areas. Heck, the main objective of a DBZ fight is to make sure that your opponent's Ki attack doesn't hit the ground or you can say that the stakes of a DBZ fight is the recklessness of Goku's Villain/ Opponent.
So what I guess I'm trying to say is that the main objective of an air fight shouldn't be about aimlessly tossing your opponent to the ground, it should be a struggle to restrain the villain. Have creative ways for both the villain and the hero to go all out while the hero tries to prevent collateral damage
Usually, they benefit from the villains being honorable or just not really caring as well, like the case of Vegeta, who was intrigued by Goku, and also felt confident enough in victory that he didn't really care where the fight was.
However, there have been exceptions to this, like in the Android Saga where Cell and the Androids often have the specific goal of wanton destruction in mind, and won't easily leave the city... So fights play out in the Urban area where the Z-Fighters find themselves heavily relying on just punches and kicks if they can help it.
At least until the opponent blows up all the surroundings anyways and at that point it doesn't matter.
It was also seen in a short film release prior to Super (though I forgot the name of it)- when the Villain destroys part of the environment putting the normal people (just Hercule and Bulma at that moment) at risk, they make a point to show the other Z-Fighters on damage control, keeping the debris from hurting them.
That’s what goku did with 19 and 20
CrazyDolphin Sounds like someone know his DragonBall..
This is spot on and is usually the case with Superman in the comics aswell. This is why he has to hold back, to prevent harm to civilians or even his foes
True. Plus it is relevant to this topic to mention that in the earlier Christopher Reeves Superman films. That there arose a point in battle with Zod and his two other krytonian soiders that Superman realised the impact they were having in the city and indangering the regular human populace. That he used flight in order to leave the city and bait his opponents away from causing any further damage or harm to others.
A part of this is also how pristine these characters stay in these fights. Dragonball has tons of people flying and fighting, thrown into mountains, and we're shown that even these super powerful aliens still get bruised, cut, and their limbs broken.
Yeah that's the thing, not flying but the lack of impact on the environment and the characters, dbs gets fine with this cause we see the impact of every blast on the characters, which makes it more interesting, due they will survive? His injures are bast
That's the deal with this stuff
No offense but dragon ball is not a good example of good fights.
Objectively speaking they're really bad it's only carried by hype.
Linking to the video, showing damage as a visual and showing damage as an actual effect are 2 different things to. It's all good bruising and breaking your character but if it doesn't have any effect it's practically just make-up.
And dragon ball is one of THE biggest offenders of attacks having 0 weight to them
@@jmj0795 and they hated him. For he spoke the truth.
@@jmj0795"No offense but Dragon Ball is not an example of good fights. Objectively speaking they're really bad..."
Lmfao.
@@jmj0795
I disagree.
Dragon ball fights are good but the pacing is the issue. Not knowing the timing of how long things take or the general scope of things can often hinder a fight.
For some reason I thought this video would be about corny speeches during a fight...
clickbait!
Heck no, I love cheesiness in my superhero movies/shows.
Me too! LOL
"No! Stop! THE PEOPLE!!!"
ReturnofBenjamin I will hurt people.
Cameraman who learned to fly for this movie: *sad flying noises*
That and always getting to survive are part of the job
Note: There is no equivalent expression to "gajes del oficio" in English :(
Well, clearly the cameraman can sue for discrimination. As they are special and no other cameraman can do what they can do. Why should they get punished for being different?
Oh wait...hold on. I think I ruined my defense on this one. I forgot the legal system is like in the United States. This guy is screwed as they don't act like Hollywood Zombies. In turn they are worthless as a cameraman. All because they are different.
@@myenglishisbadpleasecorrec5446 what's the literal translation?
@@DrDomich perk?
I can hear a future possible woosh
Ah yes, I hate that one word “Stop making super heroes fight in the air”.
Yes
stopmakingsuperherofightintheair
@@chkik7385 Hahahaha. You're amazing
@@williamshelton4318 dude you misspelled it, its fisiks
@@waffles6280 nah, it's fyciks
What people forget a lot about "flying hero combat" is put great by Omni-man when he teaches Mark how to fight with it. You can get leverage from anywhere and it uses your muscles so its not just physical but, also mental which should effect the way they fly. Don't just fly straight with a punch, fly in a curve to get a super hook, use gravity to punch down harder than anyone grounded could. Also, without the resistance of the ground, hits won't hurt as much, punch a piece of wood loosely standing and it will fall over and be difficult to break, punch the same piece of wood when it's clamped in place and it can break.
I think part of the problem just comes from the fact that these heroes are limited by human anatomy and expectations while doing something that’s distinctly non-human.
Like, when I think of the most impressive flight-fight scene I’ve ever seen, the 2010 movie Legend of the Guardians comes to mind. Not just because I loved the movie + the book series as a kid. But because the fight scenes felt unique and had weight/impact to them, as well as strategies that can only be done from the air (like spiraling down from above to take out an enemy patrol, or two soldiers grabbing an enemy’s wings to immobilize them.) I seriously recommend looking some clips up to see what I mean.
This is exactly what I was thinking about when watching this. When you punch someone your feet press against the ground, and both friction and your legs take up that force. When you are flying like a superhero there is only one force holding you in place, and it is your flight power. Depending on the exact characteristics of that force it would drastically change how you would hit somebody in the air. A punch can't depend on the ground to hold you in place, so you only have the strength of your flight power, so you should always get your full bodies momentum behind it or else you just move a bit backward. And how somebody like Thor flies, where he is more flinging himself around means a punch would be nonsensical.
Also the season one finale of Omni-man showing Mark how powerful they are compared to humans becomes terrifying when they just hover above the ground in front of a train. It’s super brutal, but more importantly it has a *purpose.*
'Invincible', did a good job of showing how humans are the ones In danger and we start to feel for the the humans rather than the undamaged Superhero.
Invincible also did a good job of showing the heroes getting damaged
@@firstnamelastname5048 mentally or physically?
Yes
Damn i thought I was done seeing Midvincible references, mentions or comparisons 😭
@@karofuor5036 damn you really hate popular stuff? 🤨
As someone who grew up watching Dragonball Z watching fight scenes in the air don't really bother me that much. It's just films do them so poorly where they blur everything and make it move st 10x the speed to disorientate people.
Hey, DBZ weeb natioooooon !!!!!
I feel like noise has a very important role when it comes to these fights. You can tell when the Z fighters are flying fast through the air without even looking. And when they are thrown into the ground you *hear* that loud impact! Films could have citizens screaming in the background, or have a dramatic setting where maybe buildings are on fire.
One of my favorite scenes are in Spider-Man 3 even with all of it's controversy, it showed Mary Jane Inside of a Car that was barely suspended in the air by Venom's webs. Everytime Spiderman would try to get to her, Venom would stop him. Then Sandman would show up out of nowhere and brutally attack Spiderman, and you would hear the surrounding citizens and news reporters in disbelief that their hero might die. One of my favorite scenes that have stuck with me.
I feel like animation, especially styles like DBZ, can manipulate the way they show you a mid-air hit to make it feel impactful. Like, they can squeeze a lot more value out of things like hitstop and can use techniques like stretching and squashing to really make a hit land regardless of the fact they're in the air and maybe, realistically, they shouldn't have the leverage to really make that kind of it. It probably also helps that we just have less expectations of realism when it comes to animation, and seeing similar techniques applied in live action might just look "wrong".
This isn't a problem in comics for similar reasons, and because storytelling in comics can be very condensed. In a comic book fight you don't need to do something like hold the tension of civillians in danger for a full minutes-long fight, you can just establish that once because you only have so much page-space to work with and it's not expected that you necessarily track that.
So yeah, when it comes to live-action movies, they really need to think harder about what they're doing and why these flying muscleman are body slamming each other.
@@kingzingo1784 Great example that, probably the only good part of that movie was that final scene, you felt the full force of Sandmans punches on peter because of the environment around them!
The problem here isn't just flight, it's the lack of intensity. The characters are not taking damage, there is no blood or bruises they're not even getting tired. They look the same throughout the fight which makes the fight is pointless for the hero and villain. Anime hangles this well.
I have an alternate hypothesis. It’s not flight that you have a problem with, but invulnerability.
Look at it this way: imagine there’s a scene of flying superheroes who, unlike Shazam & Superman, can only fly. There’s no super strength or invulnerability. Then what happens when they hit the ground? Splat! It’s over, and the crash we can be sure is coming is in fact the end of the fight, or the solving of the problem. In such a fight every move still has weight, and thus would make for a good fight.
For an example of this, look no further than Civil War, when Tony & Rhody go after the jet, but must face off against an aerial Vision & Falcon to do so. Vision is the only invulnerable candidate in the air, and knowing this fact forced a hushed silence over theaters everywhere when Rhody eventually did come crashing down. Had this fight been on land, but with pseudo invulnerable people, it would never have had such impact.
All cards on the table though, I do think you’re on to something. Flight clearly requires a degree of suspended disbelief ground fights don’t. But, indestructible characters require even more, and when the two are combined, I think it’s man of steel aspect that does more damage than flight.
I couldn’t agree more my man, the video says it’s about flying but most of the fights he has gripes with happen to be insanely op
You have made much more sense than the video itself.
Why are people bothered with the "science" of a superhero not being affected by debrees or being smacked on buildings? the point of this battles is to put up a nice gigantic epic fight between two ridiculously OP characters.. we all know superman's powers, we all know goku's powers. we all know that they will not die if they fall from miles away, that's not the point.. and yes there IS danger! because the villain is powerful enough to do damage to the hero, so they are not invunerable.
@@Cangaca777 superhuman physics is one of those goofy nerd things that make fiction cooler if you can adhere to it without getting stuck in the minutae. For example, if Superman had a reveal that his power was tactile telekinesis (valid given most feats of strength), then it would allow for a Superman who uses his power in more creative contexts. Thus, more fun fight scenes and cooler overall stories.
Relevant to flight? I'd love to see a story where the protag only has flight while still having to fight traditional superhumans. They'd have to be creative, knowledgeable, and prepared for each encounter, even if they're just doing variant divebomb tactics. Now, introduce something new: flying sniper/bomber. Green Goblin was a menace with only that artificial archetype, let alone incorporating true flight into the equation somehow.
Tl;dr: No, it's not important, until A. You realize how dumb something looks or B. You realize how cool the alternative would be
@@pandemoniousivy4651 I think in general people should stop putting problems or concerns where they dont really exist. if superman has to fly and fight a flying villain so be it. if you can fly why the heck would you be stuck to the ground? there is nothing wrong with it.. and it's entirely justifiable in that scenario. and if it looks dumb then it's a artistic/creative issue... if you cut a sheet of paper the wrong way it's your fault, not the scissors.. if people have a problem with a superhero flying fight situation then why are they watching a super-hero movie? it's like watching a horror movie and being mad because you got a jumpscare..
alternatives are interesting yeah. but there is nothing wrong with airbourne fights. the latest dbz movie has some absolute glorious fights in the air!!
I’d say The Boys is pretty great for this. Homelander can fly, yet basically any real fight we see him in is usually grounded and u can truly feel the brutality of the blows and the effect of them on the world. He usually flies to escape, like in one of the new episodes.
doesnt make sense majority of his enemies cant fly
@@saint.rahrah3663 yeah the boys also doesn't have a high budget to do CGI fights like that so that's really more of a victory by default, not by choice
@@xrstevenson with the current state of things I can see a real fight having more budget that crappy CGI
Homelander doesn't even fight, he uses his heat vision in all of his fights.
@@AbCd-sw8rk Have you seen the last season?
Nerdstalgic: “When we are in the air, we lose a sense of danger”
The millions of people that are scared of planes: •__•
@Albert D I think falling would be scary
I'd say the sense of danger is GREATER up in the sky, what with the risk of falling
you mean afraid of heights?
I hate planes. Not because of the flying or height, but fuck planes for popping my damn ears. They’re my ears. Please don’t touch them.
@@sleepingzoro7530 Ur ears
Oh come on. The entire scene with Sivana launching into his grandiose speech and Billy just saying "What?" because they're A MILE AWAY was brilliant.
He wasn't dissing that. He was dissing the midair fight afterwards.
@@krabsisdaddy447 That's fair.
Yesss
I mean it was funny. But shazam has superhearing. So it really doesn't make sense.
@@grimcowboyer yeah,in the movie he was slowly able to know about his powers..even I think he wasn't in his full potential till the end!!
While I agree with the premise. I thought the use of flying here was hilarious. That scene alone of Cap Marvel telling Savana he can’t hear him is great
Yeah that was a great joke!
WHAT I can't hear you your like a mile away
Don't woosh but isn't it supposed to be shazam or billy
@@justinliammartinez4738 capt. marvel is his original name
@@NaughtiusMaximmus well it ain't anymore
One of the worst parts of being hit, is your momentum slamming your head into the ground. When you can fly, you can instantly negate that momentum. And when flying through concrete starts to feel like nothing, it instantly ruins that feeling of a fight.
I think flying just removes one of the best part of a fighting scene: Choreography.
Orrrr is it cuz they can’t do solid choreo, they decide to go for flying?
@@waterywingz orrrrr flying scenes would be awesome with great choreography. Imagine Naruto fight scenes x DBZ
Air fight definitely be good but they must good fight choreography or make us feel like the people are the real one in danger like invincible
On the other hand, it leave kids with imagination of superhero fighting in the air. Keep in mind that it's a kids movie. Kids will pick up his Shazam/Superman action figure and make it fly while fighting their other toys, knocking off building blocks, tossing the opponent around, etc. Sure critics won't enjoy being treated like a kid but if it's a fun movie, then we can enjoy it together.
But.... There is still Choreography. Flying is part of the choreography.
I’m sorry but the fact that “Phsysics” was just left front and center for so long was hilarious
I like how he didn’t go back to when it first appeared but toward the end thinking that would change the whole time the word appeared lol
@ look at the fucking video man
@God is a stupid idiot f*cking assh*ole bit*ch
No one asked =)
Phsysics can be very inter-rantsting.
@ he's talking about how the video misspelled it dumbass 2:19
Nerdstalgic: Stop fighting in the air!
Aang and Ozai have entered the chat.
Which is one of the most boring fights in the show tbh.
@@skaionex Fair. That being said, I think it's still better than most mid-air fights because it utilizes the environment creatively. Its boringness might also be due to the fact that it's happening alongside arguably the best fight of the series (Zuko vs Azula) which was much more emotionally engaging.
@@jkap2042 this is true on both accounts
@@skaionex I personally disagree but that may be my own taste
@@nekoqueen5524 Don't worry, I also disagree, even though Azula vs Zuko was emotionally engaging and the visuals are awesome, I still think Aang's final battle is one of the best fight scenes in the show.
3:55 this is something Dragon Ball Z did right a few times. The characters would often lead the villains away from civilization and to a deserted area whenever they could.
Yupp! Also dbz gets flying n fighting so right
They always do it
But it's immediately ruined when that fight starts. Rapid punches and kicks don't work, launching someone into a mountain doesn't work...why is this fight happening? That's just the surface because the story writing as to why the fight is happening also doesn't work. DBZ has aged badly.
anime does that really well
@@JessicaChastainFan That’s because DBZ never bothered to explain how ki attack works. The characters supposedly can blow up planets yet fight scenes conveniently just destroy some mountains or barely make a dent on their clothes. It’s visually cool but the inner consistency in the series is a complete mess, it’s usually up to the fans to make up stuff explaining what happens in the fights.
Sounds like they just gotta stop casting the ground in movies
Well there’s only one ground, so that would be discriminatory to a marginalized group.
Literally died
Linyoshi Belle I’m offended and your cancelled
The hero and villain are thrown through dozens of buildings with no harm to either one. Meanwhile, how many civilians are now dead?
What’s your point? It’s not like the hero wants to be crashed in a building for people to die. Besides people with super vision or something like that can see if people are there. For example, iron man both comics and mcu can see if people are in any buildings or anywhere near him, Superman can also do that, anyone with X-ray or sensors can do that but not Thor or any of those heroes
@@masterofdragons82 but.. that is he's point? You said that the heros doesn't want to be crashed into building's for people to die but if that was case why would they throw the villains into building's as well? Like I don't see Superman giving a flying fuck about what he was doing and when Iron-man did the same thing to Hulk at least he shot four mini missiles into the building before so the building would cave in on itself instead of falling to side
@@supremekingcolour8668 Iron Man didn't seem to care in the Avengers when he went to eat shwarma
@@trevorphilips9065 true
@@supremekingcolour8668 But then again he was hungry
Even dragon ball z figured out this a while ago. Granted this might be why the fights in the original dragon ball were so engaging since ring Knockouts pretty much require that you be on the ground kinda
In general dragon ball fights are better than most dbz fights. They feel more impact and have great choreography and don’t follow the same script so much
More about technique and cool moves where dbz is just one person being dramatically more powerful than the other and swapping who that is
@@erichall090909 good point yeah.
@@erichall090909 agreed
The coolest fighting scenes in dbz happen on the ground...
Like the first goku vegeta fight has lots of them you can feel the impact on the ground ...goosebumps...
Or the frieza goku fight on namek each punch and kick and move has mass and impact you can literally feel the force of it...
The difference between Chronicle and the other movies shown is that the main struggle of that in the air battle was Andrew being a threat to all the people on the ground. They didn't show it quite as brutally as they should have but that is the consequence of it and it was very real.
Plus the flying perfectly set up the killing blow at the end. That sudden death was really well done.
i love how "Phsysics" turned into "Physics" as if like nothing happened
I almost thought it must've been on purpose because of that, lmao.
It takes "Phsysics" to turn "Fisix" into "Physics".
We..... We dont talk about that
Typos - Happens to everyone, but it's the easiest thing to fix if you want to elevate the integrity of all your hard work.
@@b.s.a.suburbiaproductions840 I know that some creators will deliberately leave a typo or misspelling in a video because it prompts people to make a comment. Even someone saying "You're a dumbass, you spelled 'physics' wrong!" is good for the algorithm.
"Stop flying while fighting"
Dragon Ball Z: I'm gonna pretend I didn't see that
Part 3 final fight: *am I a joke to you?*
Endeavor vs High end: I dont think I will.
I had the same thought. When I first watched DBZ as a kid, so much fights were in the air and it was total fire!
@@machiavelli612 I wouldn't say jojo references are anywhere near dead, they are down cause vento aureo is over but when stone ocean comes out it'll start up again
Edit: I just checked ur profile and saw that u r subscribed to hamon beat, that explains it somewhat
@@doctorofskillz2932 yeah
Ima just wait till stone oceans comes
And thats where the chaos(the good kind) begins.
"The *one word* ruining superhero fight scenes"
*starts speaking about flying and fighting scenes*
Yeah. The title is shitty
i think the word was "physics"? idk tho
Granted, it's not said outright as "One word: flying" in the script as far as I can tell.
But yeah, "flying" seems to be the thing ruining fight scenes. Relative frames of reference help an audience to identify with what they're watching, and flight can add difficulties to that.
Think it was the word flying
Yeah, wtf is that title?
This is why Invincible has such incredible fights. It often switches back and forth between fighting in the air and ground. While fighting in the air, it shows the stakes at hand with how brutally all the civilians die. When on ground, it shows how brutally Invincible himself gets pummeled by his enemies
The other word being: invulnerable. Most of these characters in the air are so tough that a full force impact into a hard surface is usually an inconvenience, regardless of the power of the opponent or anything else.
This should be the ONLY word, since the video implies we can't fathom what it's like to be punched though a wall, but in the air
@@thekodex1186 yea its not a very good arguement at all flight is not the issue it doesnt even correlate
That gives me an interesting idea for a superhero: What if there was a hero who could fly or whatever, but was _not_ crazily resistant to impacts from punches and such, and were actually effected like a real person? All the heros I see always seem to be so resistant that they can be smashed into cars or concrete and the obstacle bends or breaks against them instead of them going splat. I'm not sure I've ever seen a character with super powers _without_ that ability and think it could be a really interesting concept.
@@happysmash27 Fun Fact: The Flash dosn't have super duribility, just super healing, so he does indeed feel everything
@@happysmash27 🤔 There's a hero like that, but in a manga called MHA: Vigilante.
I’ll remember to don’t record flying fight scenes, thanks!
Good way to counter this argument "tell superheroes and villians who can fly to stop fighting in the air"
i thought you were a filmmaker and i looked your name up. then i started to wonder why a portuguese left-back would want to make superhero films
@@lunadias1289 what
@@abhiklovesbadbitches a what?
@@Jaeyun1 its a position in football
"And none of it really feels like it matters except to the civilians watching." I think that's literally the point in that sequence in Chronicle.
Yup! Well, kind of. I mean we’re supposed to believe that these people are on the verge of killing one another, THESE characters are who we’re supposed to be invested in. Yet instead it’s more, oh no, think of the kids! Which kind of defeats the purpose of creating this fight in the first place.
And also in Man of Steel, as demonstrated by the premise of BvS.
@@Nerdstalgic you're unrealistic because the fights aren't both people agreeing to go away from the city it's like a street fight not a boxing match
Retùrn of Horus the galactic order either way it was choreographed being a movie
Nerdstalgic I understand where your at here, but the point of the fight wasn’t that they where trying to kill each other, but more so it was the sane one trying to calm down the crazy one, and protect the people that he was harming, whilst the crazy one is trying to kill the sane one (I forgot their names).
It wasn’t a struggle of strength, but a struggle of will, which one will give up first. That’s why this fight scene still works, and is still enjoyable. You made it sound like it was a bad fight, when it was one of the most unique fights out there, showing the entire thing in the prospective of a civilian via the camera, and the danger that they are put through.
But like I said, I understand where you’re coming from, and respect your opinion.
4 years late, but this video was great. You've earned a subscriber!
Nerdstalgic: Don't do flying fight scenes
Dragon Ball: Haha he's funny
Anime doas flying fights much better honestly
@@nineten9011 More like: Don't do flying fight scenes if you don't know how to.
Anime: knows how to!
this reminds me of jotaro vs dio fight
Spoilers:
Before the fight Dio kills kakyoin in a flying fight scene and he also "almost" kills jotaro with the knife throws
So i think that fight was a good example of How a flying fight should be handled
Yes
The thing I really didn't like about the "Shazam" movie was that the child version of billy had somewhat of a mature personality,
but the adult version had this very goofy, expressive, overreacting personality. It was weird seeing the kid act like an adult and
then pull a 180 and act like a kid when he was an adult. I don't ever see anyone mention this..
I noticed this detail too when I first saw the movie. I took it as Billy having this deep-rooted psychological issue due to the fact that he didn't have his real mother around his life as he was growing up. To a kid, that pretty much forces you to "grow up" and develop maturity at a much earlier age. He developed trust issues and a slight juvenile tendency. Billy constantly felt like he had to prove that he could always take care of himself and that he doesn't need anyone. As Shazam, he didn't have to worry about all that for the first time since he's finally "big" and with superpowers. In a way he lets down his emotional walls whenever he's Shazam. I personally think adult Shazam is what Billy is meant to be on the inside with immature/childish tendencies finally being let out for the first time. Maybe the wisdom of Solomon has something to do with that too but that's just my take on Billy's character based on the movie. Zachary Levi probably could have taken it down a bit with his character though but it is what it is.
I think it's just how Billy is, he looks scrawny as a kid so he essentially has to keep himself quiet as to not get targeted, but as Shazam, the hero he has enough power to act as goofy and fun as he wants
Psychologically. Kids act like an adult. Adults act like theyre kids..
Also young billy gets to show his real enthusiasm whenever transforms into shazam. Like any kid would react if they ever got to have superpowers. It shows how they are just really kids if they are able to pretend and transform into adults.
spot on, i noticed it as well and wfound that one thing to be what i disliked the most about the movie, billy batson acted like a somewhat mature 10 year old, while shazam acted like an imature 6 year old, very jarring.
That was just one reasons I did not like the movie. Zachary Levi just came off too campy, goofy and cheesy. I debate whether it was a terrible director or terrible actor on this one.
Okay, but that moment when Billy couldn't hear the super villain speech made me laugh, tho
I appreciate how you put a placed a big blocky word right in the middle of the screen to keep us slack jaws not just zoning into the fight scene and not listening to anything you're saying. Its smart. It's annoying, but I respect it.
when they were just “hovering in the air” it honestly looked like two dudes were just standing there bc there was NO WIND making the things on their body move (clothing, hair). These things only really move when the characters themselves are moving. as someone was raised in a city once you go over the 10th floor there is a bunch of wind blowing, even if its a relatively calm day/night weather wise. so every scene i see in the air and there’s little to no wind effects im immediately turned off
except that most times when a character is flying, they're creating a sort of vacuum/bubble around them that goes against everything around them
So conversely, when weather effects are actually present, you get turned on? ._.
@@yewdielrosas5727 Hell yeah
toaster in the tub sounds like you just made that up.
@@yeahkeen2905 sounds like you're stupid then
I feel like the problem you're describing doesn't come from flying in particular, it comes from filmmakers padding out fights with a bunch of action. Nothing about flying stops there from being stakes to the fight.
It does though... like he said they ALWAYS have to come back to the ground. Nothing meaningful happens in the air *unless* specific stakes have been made for the fight other than beating the shit out of each other.
@@trequor Again, though, that's the fault of filmmakers, not a necessary consequence of air battles.
@@TheNeilBlack a pure beat-your-shit-in fight works on the ground, but not in the air
@@trequor It can also work in the air. There's no reason it can't.
@@TheNeilBlack Yes, there is. As outlined in this video. We dont understand the physics involved. Punches have no power and shoves are meaningless until they hit something.
I think Invincible did a great job, at making a fight scene that is 60% flying around, seem intense and epic.
Invincible had the benefit of being animated. Its much easier to believebly mess with physics and raise the stakes in an animated air fight than a live action/cgi one.
@@Tredhd well yeah, but it is still the same "two incredibly durable beings fly through stuff while fighting". And I think what sets invincible apart is not the animation or coreography of the fight. Those are good too, but what makes it so memorable, intense and awesome, is the story. It's not two strong guys beating the crap out of eachother until they land and the hero wins. It's an ideological battle between two people who care about eachother deeply, but who have come to blows over what they believe. And we as the audience are so caught up in their story, and the unfairly one sided fight, that we barely notice that it's another man of steel style sky battle. No, the audience is wondering about the outcome, and both Omni man's words and Marks heroic defience, hit harder than the punches being thrown.
And that is what I think would fix the type of battles that the video complained about - writing so engaging and intense, that we the audience are sitting on the edge of our seats, without our mouths wide open, just wondering how will it end.
@@transformersrevenge9 The key with Invincible is that no one is impervious to damage... that is what truly makes the fighting top notch. Even Omniman was visibly hurt by the end of season 1. You cant tell me that those scenes would have hit as hard if neither Mark or his father had a scratch on them. Fact is non-verbal story telling can never be entirely carried by verbal story telling.
Yeah i think its like the other dude said. It was 2d animation which had the benefit of making things alot more impactful but it still happened the same way how he described. The fight happens in air then becomes grounded for the end and the real threat was just people trying to survive the fight if yknow what i mean.
Animated so
OK, couple of things. First, the example of Thor Ragnarok is poor. They're not flying. Bifrost is a teleport, therefore, doesn't count as flying. They can move in only one direction and that scene happens after the titular character is stripped of his ability to fly. Second, seriously, what is your beef with Man of Steel action scenes? What do you mean we don't care about the reality of those scenes? That fight with Zod in the mid air is visualized masterfully. I feel every punch, every throw, every movement. Zaddy and VFX artists put a lot of thought and work into making that sequence have weight. Like when punches create shockwaves, or when you can see the realistic body and weight physics. What exactly did you expect to see? Man of Steel has the best superhero flight scenes in anything. They're done masterfully. Especially when flying scenes can easily look corny and weightless. Like, going back to your example with Thor, can you actually remember any of his flight scenes? He barely flies in all of the movies he appears in because MCU filmmakers know how hard it is to craft a flight scene and make it look good.
Why did Thor n Tony keep the fight on the ground?
Nerdstalgic: To increase stakes
Marvel: And make Cap feel left out?! Are you looking to start a Civil War?!!!
was thinking the same 😂
FOr real though, neither Tony nor Thor are very maneuverable in the air. They both go forward fast and have trouble turning. If either is airborne and the other isn't, the airborne one is at the disadvantage, a clear target for blasts with lessened ability to dodge.
@@BardicLasher Especially Thor! Far as I'm concerned, aerial fights done right are purely for spectacle. Don't care what anyone says Man of Steel's final fight was one of my favorites in superhero history.
Even ground fights in superhero movies suffer from the lack of definable stakes cos we have no idea how strong they actually are. See Thanos for instance, barely flinching against the Avengers, even the Hulk but Drax, freaking Drax, marched his knee right to the ground n Nebula could use a stick to whip his face sideways
@@ebewelepraise531 that's why I love winter soldier so much because they aren't God levels of power and they bleed. You can see how much strength they have and Cap is in serious danger throughout most of the movie
One thing though: Superman vs Zod was half in air, but the fight was IMO of the most ruthless fights because they used their speed on the ground to attack each other. They hit a lot of things with that speed. The physics of that was fun to watch. It was more than moving at light speed at slo-mo. It was like a tank bullet hitting things. The end result also added to the realism.
Superman vs Zod is probably one of the one examples that could feel it all. The only real downside was honestly just the 'invulnerability' concept because it felt like all that amounted to well. nothing.
It wasn't like earlier where he'd actually break their helmets.
superman can break his neck, but can't hurt zod with the punch and also when zod get hit by the building and the ground hes still okay I don't man I don't think physics works like that
@@chaosfox2852 then your just looking at things in a single point of view althought superman was barely physically hurt all the emotional damage from the millions of dead civilians is the weight you should be feeling
I actually love the use of snap zooms in the fight to show how fast Superman and Zod are actually moving.
@@Noak5678 I'm confused. Are you saying Superman didn't feel the emotional weight from the dead civilians in Metropolis?
Are you okay? It sounded painful to talk about manscaping.
Yeah his voice changed when he was talking about it.
Poor dude sounded like somebody was holding him hostage and making him read a script
Im dead
Lmao this comment literally made me laugh out loud. To answer your question, I've now escaped.
I’m crying
Ive never heard of this channel but what a breath of fresh air, a video essay in a sea of video essays that i genuinely enjoyed from start to finish
Thor cant fly, he throws his hammer and he's dragged with it! Lol
It pulls him off...
The hammer pulls you off?
@@mitchellbailey6258 ooh my god
Yes he can. He can manipulate the wind to give flight.
@@theNewBee hey.. i regularly sees your video, keep it up :)
Spoiler: To me, Shazam's climax was Billy accepting his mother doesn't want him, then turning to save his real new family... paid off sharing his power with them MARVELously
Yeah
Pretty sure you meant “DCvously”
Ahh I see what you did there, well played.
@@WitnessRAH You missed the pun
@Jonas REYES How?
I love the idea of two Heroes trying to fight in the air and getting mad because they can't get enough power in their punch to actually hurt.
Superman and zod be like "haha weak"
Woah. The way you explained this so well and from every possible angle. *Chefs kiss*🤌🏼🤌🏼
Chronicle was a bad example, they humanized their characters to the point where i was flinching everytime they got hit, even in the air.
I remember doing that too because the dude just broke out of a hospital with his bones still all broken and covered in blood
yep havent even seen the movie and i still agree just from the clips he showed
That fight was more emotional than physical, and if you focus on the damaged caused by the characters, you notice how Andrew didn't care anymore about the collateral while the other one whose name I can't remember right now was being more careful
Even the scene they used in the video where he hits the street light made me flinch as I watched this
*Killed one villan, caused more than 10B dollars of damage, killed more than 1k innocent civilians*
*Gets called the hero*
if those people don't die millions will die becauseof zod
Billions*
@@marshetshimelis5339 yeah but he’s still not much of a “hero”.
There can be 2 villains, or a morally grey character and a villain. Or a reckless superpower abuser with such a vendetta the villain they don’t even care about how much they destroy, as long as that villain is no longer.
I am saying this as an unashamed lover of all things superheros and superpowers.
i hope you know they made a whole sequel where Superman is taken to court for what happened and the the world is split between people who see him as a hero and others who see him as a threat...
@@firstnamelastname6016 k
Nerdstalgic: Fighting while flying makes no sense to us
Me: Why won’t the CAMERA STOP MOVING?!
Literally. It hurts my head.
One other thing I noticed in that the mall fight sequence in 'Shazam' is that it involves "near ground" flight and closed spaces. This adds to the feeling of the space being limited (and closer) and thus makes the scene visually and mentally feel more grounded and hits closer to home because there are walls/buildings all around the characters, and the onlookers/bystanders are close enough too. It intensifies the stakes and puts more limitations on the characters. This is also why the highway/supermarket fight sequence between Superman and Faora in 'Man of Steel' feels and looks so good. These scenes are in contrast to just fight sequences high up in the sky with no limiting space around, with the human bystanders far below on the ground, and with the characters just smashing each other into buildings or onto the ground.
I feel that when showing fight sequences involving flying superheroes, it's better to show "near ground" flight with physical spaces and people much closer around them, than them being high up in the sky.
I think this is at least partially a problem with having flying indestructible bricks as protagonists and giving their foes identical nearly powersets every time and the flying and related problems are more of a byproduct of that. Still good food for thought though.
That is my main issue with heroes like superman , his powers , costume is so basic yet he's portrayed as indestructible so their force to write dumb things like krytopnite , so when comparing him to other heroes like iron man he has not aged well
@@martinmorles1 Well, to be fair, Superman is the codifier for the superhero genre. He's going to be a generic superhero by definition. Having said that, he does have some issues:
-They kept giving him new powers without any consistent theme necessarily. Originally, the character was basically Mr. Incredible, for the record. You want to give your heroes a 'theme' of sorts to their abilities. For example, let's say a hero who can control light, and therefore can make laser beams, create holograms, turn invisible, etc.
-They made him overpowered, moreso than really serves the plot most of the time. To some extent, part of his character is him being invincible in a lot of ways and the responsibility that carries, but you can still have that and have him be beaten down occasionally.
-Kryptonite is bad as a weakness for two reasons: It ought to be really rare, and it's also something that doesn't have a lot of "real world" context. Basically, the only situation in which it would exist is if a bad guy planned to fight Superman. It's a "Superman is arbitrarily able to lose" button. If it were something more mundane, like say, harmful radiation in general, you could have interesting scenarios like Superman having to save people from a nuclear powerplant or something, and it wouldn't be contrived.
@@MatthewCampbell765 another minor ways are electricity, he cant burn to death but otherwise is as vulnerable as any human to being unconscious and stunned
and magic, that affects him as if he is a normal human, except when the mage is not creative and just shot magic laser beans, instead of turning him into stone or something like that
@@MatthewCampbell765
If one of the problems you have w/ Kryptonite is that it's not rare enough, then wouldn't making radiation his weakness have the same problem if not be even more convenient? I mean, it's not like it would be hard to get a hold of radiation, especially for Luther, a rich business man & super genius, or even steal it from other countries, stealing radiation would be piss poor easy for the LoD.
@@martinmorles1
It seems like in recent years, Superman has become a walking Deus ex Machina, he's too strong & has too many powers that come outta nowhere.
It's so boring to watch Superman, Superman rarely struggles & loses/dies, but on the rare occasion he does, he just comes back!
It also doesn't help when there are times when villains use his weakness & they don't work, I have seen so many times when Superman just get's so angry that he overpowers his weakness, like what? Just one piece of Kryptonite brings you to your knees & yet you get so pissed that you're able to rip apart Luthor's Kryptonite suit?
Kung fu panda 2 did the "I can't hear you you're too far away" thing first and in my opinion better
Shazam literally ripped off that part of Kung Fu Panda without adding anything new. I love Shazam, it's a great movie, but in terms of that scene, it's ironic how the animated movie did the joke more maturely than the live action movie.
oh my god no wonder I thought i recognized the scene!!
@@nathanieldiaz5254 animated movies are art bruh
@@semelatifofalism5833 Yeah I know. But most of them aren't made with much effort because they're "films for kids".
@@nathanieldiaz5254 No, it's not ironic.
Flying isn't the problem, merely the lazy and unimaginative way it has been portrayed in films so far.
Flying could look good but it needs choreography to not come across plain and boring, the physics behind it need to be consistent and rich in details to keep the immersion despite its absurdity. The characters fighting need to use flight in a strategic manner and their airborne fight-style should be efficient first and only flashy on occasions.
Flying should come with an interesting set of rules to have pros and cons, so there are situations where it's worth using and and others where not and some where it's very risky but could have great payoff. But above all the viewers should feel like it makes sense and things aren't just made up on the fly.
Flying should be used in small bursts opportunistically whenever it makes sense, just because someone is flying they shouldn't fly all the time. Also landing could be done not just on the ground but on any surface for a momentary increase in maneuverability or to have something solid to blast off from as a surprise attack.
Flying looks bad because making it look good takes talent, effort, time and money and most films cheap out on at least one aspect.
Yes, it always baffles me how someone just stay in the air like forever just because they can fly.
If non-flying fighters can use terrain like building or debris as foothold for mid-air maneuvers, why don't flying fighters do the same but much more effectively thanks to their essentially gravity defying power.
If they really bothered to take the time and make the inertia work (ex: how much time it would take them to slow to a stop, before changing directions which, without any friction would take a lot more time than just turning on a dime on the ground), had consistent G-forces involved and (for the heroes that can fly that aren't immune to damage) a far more careful approach to colliding with literally anything so that they don't break their ankles, arms, etc. upon impact because they could be moving at the same speed you would if you got in a car accident and were flung out the windshield, I think flying fights could be a lot more interesting and "grounded".
Make the physics work, make the stakes of actually physically being in the situation feel real and all of a sudden I'm buying your fight a hundred times more.
And for the love of god, if you have a character that flies by beating their wings or something study big birds (eagles, vultures, cranes) and see how they do it. (I'm looking at you X-Men movies) They have some of the highest potential of all kinds of superhero fliers to look really grounded in reality (birds fight midair all the time, its super well documented and can be pretty fucking epic) since we know how birds are supposed to look and feel flying. None of that hovering with tacked on wings that beat in midair with absolutely no resistance and no consequence on the actor. [end of rant, sorry]
Nein I don’t think it really baffles me that much. It actually makes sense that a person with flying in their skillset would have a lot of endurance for flying. I would imagine that a person who can fly, and has flown for years, it’d become as second nature as walking, and especially if you’re in a position where you’re exercising that skill frequently (being a superhero)
@@ViridianForests All due respect but you might want to pay a little more attention to the source material. Literally every scene mentioned in this video with the exception of one (Chronicle) had superheroes with superhuman endurance, dexterity, and strength. Superman and General Zod aren't worried about their ankles.
Even in the case of Chronicle you're talking about beings that have literally developed the ability to sightlessly and seemingly without need of thrust defy gravity. This means that at the very least they can use telekinesis to compensate for things like inertia or at the best they can literally control gravity itself in close proximity to some extent.
Unless you have the short on how a being that can control gravity is just as subject to the forces of physics you described you don't really have an argument. And that's only if we ignore the superhuman endurance.
Honestly I personally think a good example of this kind of deliberate choreography is the Metropolis fight scene from Superman II. The movie has issues to be sure not the least of which is the writing but the choreography is pretty close to what you're describing in my opinion. It's the first super powered fight scene and Zod quickly realizes Supermans care for innocents around him is a weakness. Something that only happens right before the end in Man Of Steel after they've thrown each other through every building that's two stories or more and some that aren't.
Bud this has nothing to do with film or writing.. It is just poor choreography. A good choreographer would use flight in an Intresting way... never change your script for "better" fight scenes
"The One Word Ruining Superhero Fight Scenes"
Makes a 10 minute video talking about air
*"O n e W o r d"*
@person person Air
@person person Air
@person person Air
oh, i thought it was PHSYSICS
It's FLYING
Did anyone else notice that the word 'physics' was on screen for like a minute spelt 'phsysics'?
that's why im in the comment section lmao
@@ryumalick1817 *literally* killing you? oh god...
That was on purpose, to highlight how your brain can’t understand flight physics. It switches to the correct spelling when he starts talking about grounded physics your brain *can* understand
@@the_r4ts or it's a typo
I thought I just learned it wrong or something
“PHSYSICS” is such an interesting subject
are u talking about shawn spencer lol psych is one of the best shows
"PHSYSICS" Is the one word that ruins physics.
For those who don't get it: 2:17 P H *S* Y S I C S mmmmm :D
Took me a good 10-20 seconds to figure out if it was spelt correctly
man could have just googled the word, minimal effort
As an anime enjoyer this is very different. While yes the invulnerability applies a lot to this in most air fights, a lot of impact is shown and you can tell when it’s important and not boring.
And when it’s not airborne fights (like demon slayer (my fav)). It really does feel so much more powerful when they make sense in every move they throw.
I think the problem is less flying, and more super heroes like superman and shazam being literally invulnerable so hits have no weight. The things you said were the problem don't need to be a problem with flying. Like, there's no reason flying through a concrete and glass building should feel weightless and with 0 impact, unless they come out of the other side unscathed. And if they can do that, getting punched in the face while standing would not be that different.
I agree. But marvel also has a big share of character staking building busting punches and they get up laughing and making jokes remember thor vs hulk? Anyways I agree with you. If two characters with about the same power hit each other they should be hurt by the mere punch or kick, the same way we get hurt when somebody hits us
Yeah, same for the civilians getting hurt, if it's just some regular dude flying and punching another then there's no reason for there to be any civilian casualties.
Also, I don't see how civilian casualties is a problem, I mean it's just that we see them in DC movies unlike in Marvel movies where we see alien invasions and islands being destroyed but no casualties.
What you point out is why the flying fight in "Chronicle" had stakes and kept me engaged. Especially because the characters were shown to have telekinesis but no other special healing or invulnerability powers.
@@Cipher_Paul Didn't Ross show the casualties from collateral damage in Ckvil War?
@@deathsdoor07 we never saw casualties during the battle itself, we were just told about it years after.
It was also long after Man of Steel which is from where they got the inspiration to do that just like Batman V Superman which had came out just a month before.
When Peter was thrown trough walls and glass windows in Spider-Man 3, that always felt like it hurt.
Yeah, Tobey Maguire is really good.
And the part where he was being helplessly hammered down by sandman in that final fight scene
@@dantecoates9513 The key to that scene? Crowd reaction shots.
I feel like a lot of your problems are with the "invincible hero" rather than flight. A lot of the same critiques apply to ground scenes, such as the fight in the small town in man of steel.
My thoughts exactly
IHOP.
Ye the fight scene in man of steel between Zod and superman is one of the best superhero fight scenes of this decade imo
@@HasanR99 I agree it's watching two gods fight and the people are the true victims of the destruction.
True with that.
I would argue that in Man Of Steel, Zach made me feel the weight behind every punch.
It had a Dragon ball feel. It's pure strength, no magic, nothing fancy just pure fisicality.
The complete decimation of Metropolis made it even more believable.
Where as Shazam is more like a fan film made for 12 year olds.
Absolutely agree with everything except the stuff about Shazam
I totally agree with everything. It's had to take Shazam serious at all. Clearly it's amovie for kids
@@alispeed5095 it's a movie that's fun.
Maybe but it was meaningless because unlike DBZ, theres no nuance in fighting style or interesting strategy to defeat each other. It felt like an expensive video game cut scene showing the devastation instead of an interesting fight with real stakes
Imma have to disagree on the Man Of Steel point respectfully; I feel like up until Supes did his deed to end Zod, it was a stalemate destruction derby Rock-em-Sock-em sesh that would have seen no end otherwise. This might just be me, but I didn't see even a glimmer of the refinement that Dragon Ball can have in its stakes of destruction. Typically destruction is emphasized as involving civilian casualties, except in the wimpier English dubs; Superman V. Zod caused billions in property damage and untold casualties/injuries only tangentially mentioned in BvS.
Almost makes me agree with Batman if I were seeing the footage of a city being levelled over an alien tizzy.
And that’s why elytra should be banned on the marvel smp
Elytra is gliding like falcon
@@bladeoftheruinedking2543 shhhhh don’t take this joke seriously
Why did I immediately think of minecraft because of the word "elytra"
@@nhusam9080 because it exists in minecraft
@@bladeoftheruinedking2543 yeah, but it could've been anything other than minecraft.
I'd like to correct a mistake in this video. Thor cannot fly. His hammer "pulls him off"
He rides the hammer
@Anarchy Studio Productions 👀
@@saumibinu3418 LMAO this reminds me of that rock guy in ragnarok
*"Oh the hammer rides you?"*
@@GreySeashell-j3m yes it was a reference to that
Durability is the issue not flying.
Exactly I don’t think the flying is the issue. All these superheroes are literally SUPER heroes. It’s difficult to see damage being done when they’re so strong
@@PasteGames No flying is definitely the issue because it robs the audience of the feeling of physics mainly because you can never actually see Newton’s laws in effect for example if a fight is on the ground and one person get punched we can physically see them have to exert a equal opposite force to stop themselves from going flying and we would see the true damage of the punch by how much damage the ground takes when their back leg presses against the ground even if we don’t see it On their physical bodies however in the air when someone gets punched you can never tell exactly how much damage is given unless they hit the ground or a building because they just apply that opposite force to the air which we can’t see so if they have no clear physical damage it’s as if the punch never happened and Robs the viewer of a connection to said punch same with say 2 beams that collide canceling each other and sending them back but they recover in the air what was the point of said beam attack
Pretty much you won’t be able to get a finish till one person get tired/or gets hit to the ground where physics actually matter to establish that connection of damage and what you basically get is a fight with no connection until the climax making the entire fight almost forgettable.for example I just watched this video but when I try to remember the fights in the video the most memorable moments are easily when someone got sent through a building/into a wall or into the ground or they hit the other person with something grounded by physics like a car/truck. I agree durability 100% makes it worse tho a flying scene with 0 visible damage is Terrible
@@NACentDSTM The point of said beam attack would have been to show that both characters' beams are equal in power. Removing it from the fight probably wouldn't change its outcome but the same thing can be said about a drawn beam battle that occurs on the ground.
@@NACentDSTM I don’t know because animations typically do flying fights pretty well. The issue is definitely not flying or physics. I think movies are just scared to show their heroes with bruised and battered faces therefore durability is the issue. Imagine if punches were being landed in the air but everytime you saw their face there was a new cut or bruise because of the actual fight. What if there was a scene in which the two flying fools were coming at each other but one got knocked out and was incapable of flying at that point. That would be a lot more interesting than someone just hitting the ground. It would give us a sense of danger instead of oh they’ll hit the ground and get back up. Just because someone’s in the air doesn’t mean they can’t take damage, but that’s the way a lot of directors typically think.
2:10 anyone else notice "Physics" was spelled wrong?
This is why there should be more winged heroes, because we as viewers understand the basic physics of wing powered flight, and the flapping wings makes gravity an actual thing.
Although you have to remember that if the wings get damaged, flight goes away. And both fliers are aware of that. So remember that they're probably aiming for each others wings. Could provide some interesting problems, such as making wing armor or just armor in general light enough to fly with but still protective.
A bit like Falcon. Whenever there's a flight and fight scene, I'm extra conscious of his wings because I know they can take damage and he'll lose his ability to fly.
i think they have tried with xmen but its too expensive to make it realisticaly or just wings on humans is dumb and it just doesnt work with physics,specially if you want to hover .
Well the main issue with the major bad films is that they try too show off their techniques, characters and cgi, rather than the story, which leads to these other issues, if you stop caring about showing off your characters, actors etc, you can tell a much better story in the fight that shows them off as a byproduct and hence can have things for example winged battles and later show them off when they are forced to the ground, but it gives the flying a purpose.
This works well in the MCU because most characters with flight have clear weaknesses that can be exploited.
Dunno if this is spoilers but
When Falcon got his wings tore off, I almost felt that 😢
I would love that. dragonflies have fantastic fights in the air. it's not like there's a lack of places to draw inspiration from.
You are so cool man. I love what you do so much.
A dude with 3 million subs makes a comment that only gets 5 likes, lmao
Lmao true
My Honest Opinion well to be fair the video was posted 2 months ago, and the comment was only made a week ago
Hey! It’s Garrett!
I love your channel
I feel this is more of a problem with overly strong characters
Yah. Ironman gets his armor fucked up when getting thrown through walls, so you know damage is being done.
@@ChefofWar33 Yeah and with characters like Superman you can't feel that because well it bearly hurts him
Yeah. Superman is just the epitome of boring
Superman is Western Saitama except he will die because a rock is colored more green than others
@@ChefofWar33 exactly, all the scenes where the suit loses power mid air (avengers when tony almost died, civil war with Rhodes) its super high stakes bc they could have actually died even in the suit. Super just pops back up like a 50 story drop resulting in your face literally smashing concrete is nothing, not a scratch on him.
one thing that helps in my opinion are obstacles the characters can springboard off of. we don't understand the physics in the air very much, but when we see the ground/wall crumple, crack, or crater just from the force of them launching off it, it tells us just how hard they're actually hitting and flying at the other dude. another thing is speed. instead of dragging out a busting through a building or series of rocks scene. a wide shot of them just blasting through all of it once before hard stopping on something solid or the ground feels more impactful, like "ooo, that's gotta hurt" even if you don't grasp how tough those materials really are. then just interacting with props on the ground or taking brief intermissions to the ground helps too. knocking a dude up, following him up, then throwing him back down or using the flight as mostly a fast method of transport to get to different landmarks/set pieces/objects the guys use in the fight is really cool. like picking up a car, using a ferris wheel, flying through subways, crashing through buses, etc. stuff like that at least make the fight have more memorable set pieces you can call back on, making the fight more memorable
Thor can't fly he just throws his hammer and holds on for dear life
He can stay still in the air he just does it sooooo rarely that u figure he cant
Nah it’s kinda like a propellor on a helicopter
I think thor can fly.. thor just literally fly at infinity war without mjolnir
The hammer pulls him off.
Lmao love this description
Anime like Dragon Ball Z - One Punch Man - Etc, can do really well with flight fights - Combo attacks broooo
To be fair they usually do pretty well with creating crazy high stakes situations
Yup!
It works with anime and especially one punch man because there a lot more effects and lines to show emotion in the scene and also one punch man is just really really good
Is all about how the action is presented.
For all the spectacle, super hero movies lack in stylization.
So something that isnt a problem in anime and cartoons becomes on because you dont have the stylish tricks they use to sell the action.
Just compare any spiderman movie against spiderverse to know what i mean.
Plus Anime has it down to a science far better than any live action movie. Look at AoT swinging compared to Spider-Man in live action movies. Even in comics Spider-Man's Web-swinging is far faster compared to the Movies. Even in Animated Super Hero movies when it comes to flight has more weight compared to their counter-parts that are in live action movies. The fighting is so much better to watch. Movies today keep Super Hero movies to Grounded, when there should be style type fighting. Funny Cartoons been doing it for years. Meanwhile Live Action still suck at it.
Nerdstalgic: Don’t shoot a flying fight scene because it’s boring and has a lot of problems
Anime: Chump
This is my point. Anime has been doing it for decades! lol
I like how he’s all serious but I can’t keep a straight face and agree knowing he spelled “physics” as “phsysics” lol 💀💀 2:16
From what I understand Thor can't actually fly. It is his hammer propelling him forward that makes him able to be airborne. Just thought I would point that out when you claimed he could fly.
Correct! I didn’t feel the need to explain that because I thought most people understood this. But yes, his hammer allows him what is essentially the power of flight, not with the degree of nuance as someone like iron man obviously, however.
@@Nerdstalgic I heard that the hammer pulls him off
@@Haihiru not, he rides the hammer
@@Nerdstalgic also add this, he can fly freely in his pure lightning form from Ragnarok now also as seen in infinity war he was flying with storm breaker.
Yeah, so I feel like that piece of evidence for the argument can be basically thrown out. It would likely put Thor at a massive disadvantage if he even tried to go up in the air.
Anime fight scenes: allow us to introduce ourselves
I realized how awesome Dragon Ball Z fights are halfway through this video
@@bryanlanda really? I just remembered how boring they are....
I'd rather watch Goku vs Chichi or Tien vs Yamcha again more than Goku vs Cell.
The fights are stupidly boring when characters just teleport around wherever they want to be. The fights are flashy, sure....but they have no substance or hype. I'm reminded of the Bleach meme with the characters flash-stepping behind each other over and over across the horizon line. Its boring 😴 if trying to be played off as serious. Though if its being used for comedy then it can be a bit entertaining.
Like really, has this dude watch any anime at any point of time in his life. Can't understand the impact??? uuuuh?
@@retrobass3693 Animes are kinda irrelevant in this conversation. It's two different mediums and anime has the advantage of being heavily stylized.
@@taylorhillard4868 You just like a different style of combat. Both DBZ and say Man of Steel had incredible fight scenes. But they're both different. Saying that either one doesn't have impact or substance or hype is entirely personal preference.
The one problem with this take is about Chronicle. The flying scene is what the movie has been building up to, its narrative peak. It DOES feel partially disconnected and partially human because the entire story is arguably about someone losing his humanity. This is the point where he breaks away from the grounded control that he's been struggling with the whole movie, there's been a progression of him losing his moral guide to use his powers responsibly or morally. The fight scene is intentionally and wonderfully above normal human understanding and context because that's now how the protagonist sees himself. His friend then has to meet him on his level in an attempt to connect, which he has failed to do the ENTIRE movie.
This is a great video and maybe I'm biased as a massive fan of Chronicle, but that's my two cents.
Came here to say that thank you, And in chronicle I actually can feel the PHYSICS of them flying they look so awkward and hard to fly like how a human would probably be .
That movie is so badass imo
I found it a little funny that he talked about the lack of tangible threat to the characters while it showed Andrew flying into a lamp and being stunned by it.
Agreed chronicle is amazing
Chronicle is brilliant and lastingly affective. Love that single shot of the dad being obliterated in the hospital bed. The disconnect of cv surveillance video and no sound was so profound and emotion eliciting
The Matrix Revolutions tried to alleviate the physics issue by using rain as an echoing effect for impacts - having raindrops fantastically scatter around on each punch, get scattered by Smith/Neo's clothing. It still has all the other issues of course - you get no sense of momentum effect from travel/acceleration.
IMO, a great addition to superhero fly-fights would be if a movie could establish both characters cannot shoot impulsively in a given direction - they have to accelerate, and so a lot of their big motions thrusting out at each other come from pushing off something or wallrunning; leading to an expression of creativity in the ways they come at each other.
And then Invincible comes along and absolutely smashes it, literally.
No
Invincible actually had characters fight on the ground or interact more with the environment due to being allowed to show death/gore more frequently.
@Aetacy ok but omni-man vs mark still works really well
@Aetacy imho best fight was Omni-man vs Immortal round 2
I think this is one of those advantages that animation has
Marvel is just the one kid in school that the teacher always uses as the good example
And dc is that one kid who the teacher is always saying, I know u have a potential
In short MCU is like Teacher's Pet at School
For good reason
@@kc9415 and the ones that asks for a Homework assignment after class
And dc is the kid who is told has potential but actually has none
Shazam is one of my favorite super hero movies ever. IMO it’s an incredible film. What is the best non MCU super hero movie?
ALSO: Be sure to check out my *phsyics* lesson lol spent a week on this and have no clue how I missed that!
Jokes aside, I think it’s the physics of impact, not of flying that concerns me the most. Obviously these characters are defying the laws of physics, so we have to find a new way to appreciate what’s happening.
Spiderverse
DragonBall evolution (obviously)
The dark knight it’s one of the greatest superhero movies and one of the greatest movies of all time and it’s still being talked about almost 12 years later.
If you're reading this I'm curious to see what you think is a actual good air fight/who does it well?
Spider-Man: Into The Spiderverse or The Dark Knight (obviously)
When it said stop in the thumbnail I thought it would be the girlfriend or girl always yelling “STOP!” When the hero is about to win
I would like to point to the finale of Avatar: The Last Airbender as a counterexample. Aang vs Ozai is a GREAT flying sequence and the impact is really felt every blow. The problem lies more in the fact that most superheroes who can fly are also super durable, meaning getting tossed into a building won't matter them at all, and thus there's no real momentum or impact.
Chronocicle could've been so good because though they have telekinesis, they were still just dudes, but they still have them tank a thrown bus like it's nothing. If they hadn't done that, the stakes of flying would've been much greater.
That Avatar fight was so damn good.
👍🏾
Bryce Peters I remember seeing someone complaining the fight sucked because Ozai got scared and tried escaping from Aang
@@Kracken1134 Because Aang is scary when he goes into the Avatar state.
Or when they are durable they should atleast get affected from each others hits even when not getting killed from flying into buildings.
This is mainly a problem when 2 virtually invincible characters fight. You still feel a sense of danger if you know that being thrown through a building will actually hurt the character.
@TrainerblueTube Exactly I was thinking of DBZ also. Look at Vegeta's fight from DBS Brolly to see how amazing a mid air fight can look and feel
So what am I supposed to do when my enemy can also fly? Tell him to stay grounded and I will too?
Well, when the enemy is stuck grounded, flying gives tactical adv. While if both sides can, sometimes flying could make you more vulnerable. Falling can suck, and your also flying enemy knows that, and can use it against you. From a realistic tactics standpoint, itd make sense to mix flying and ground tactics
Tbh ur thor u should know
Funny thing is your not a superhero and literally watch the video it explains it
@@muzza302 He is definitely not a superhero, it's just a thought he had. And the video does not give any clue on how to combat someone mid air, since we are probably not going to see anything like that irl as of right now.
Go fighter jet mode
Very well worded! Really enjoyed this analysis, you articulate the issues really well! 👌
As someone who practices martial arts, you've got a point. By having a low center of gravity, it allows power in all sorts of strikes. Throwing strikes in the air without a moving start can never really be all that powerful.... Then again Green/White/Red/Red/Black/Drakkon Power Ranger actor "Jason David Frank" has "the most boards broken during skydiving world record" so take what I say with a grain of salt.
That is one sick record to have
to be fair, they clearly have the ability to put power in their strikes since they can propel themselves. it's not exactly the same as trying to hit something while free falling or just being suspended in the air
@@wldnrkls Imagining hypothetical fight-physics is quite straining. Well, seeing how jet packs are coming into existence, perhaps we can see how a real hand-to-hand air fight will look in the near future.
What martial art do u do
@@yotacharapone5341 American Kenpo Karate.
Honestly I think the problem with the flying is the "both characters can fly" aspect of it, which is just a consequence of the "hero and villain are mirrors of each other" issue that is so pervasive in superhero films. The trick to pretty much any good superhero fight, in my opinion, is power diversity. Having two Kryptonians with identical powersets fighting each other gets dull because you know neither one can really do much to counter the other... other than just do the same move back. When both characters can fly, that turns into launching into each other over and over again until one of them hits the ground.
This is why I'm baffled by the fact we have yet to see a live action Superman movie where he tackles one of his most enduring villain types in the comics... the giant kaiju monster/evil robot. In THOSE circumstances, suddenly flying makes sense as a tactic because it gives Superman a way to look a towering monster in the face, or get away from its giant fists, or otherwise confuse it.
Idk why this popped into my head, but the “both characters can fly” thing made me wonder how would someone make a chess based fight interesting? Like... same pieces same rules? In that case I guess it comes down to how you use those pieces
@@EtamirTheDemiDeer Cast Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellan and imbue the dialogue with a bunch of subtext.
Both characters can fly could be really interesting if they can't fly in the same way. If one has wings they need to beat to fly like a bird or a bat and the other can hover like superman but both are limited by the same laws of inertia and stuff, it can be a really interesting fight.
The first hero can whack the other with its wings, but also presents a bigger target and we as the audience know that if they wings are hurt, they will plummet. The first hero could also have finer control (using tail feathers maybe?) and easier breaking midair than the second hero, but the second hero could work up to greater speeds and also only have the known condition of "if they fall unconscious, they'll fall". The second hero could want to use a smaller space to be able to push off of objects easier and would be faster on the ground, since the first hero's wings (and maybe tail) would get in the way there. There could be a big push and pull between both trying to get to a favorable environment for one and not the other. You could even out the stakes even more for both parties, making it seem like either could win if they manage to make their strategy overpower the other, or after establishing their limitations, use their opponent's strategy against them.
If its always the same vs the same then it gets boring fast, be it in flying fights or fisticuffs in any other movie. Its apples vs apples anyways, even if one's a green apple and the other is a honeycrisp. Who cares? It's the same thing re-skinned. But if its apples vs oranges, if it's two types of fruit, two types of fighters who need to learn about the other, who present weaknesses and advantages over each other that aren't the same, then things get a lot more interesting.
@@ViridianForests ye I like it where with magical abilities, there are different types of magic and subsections of control over that type of magic. Cus as you said with the 2 flight types it is more fun.
Another way to make it better is if they are using completely different types of magic but they are both expiremental. What mean is in the avatar, Aang's ability isn't flight it is the ability to control air but his staff can turn into a glider and he uses the air to give him lift, making him fly.
In that case the person uses their ability in an interesting way by understanding their powers and expirementing with them, which isn't shown a lot in super hero movies. Like they only train for 2 reasons, 1to control their powers or 2 ,to make them stronger (like training flight to fly faster)
The only heroes I know of that expirement with their abilities are heroes that use gadgets not super powers and that is because usually they are the smart people.
And that Ladies and gentlemen concludes my Ted talk
That’s one of the reasons I loved Spider-Man Far From Home so much, seeing Mysterio and Spider-Man use different powers was just so refreshing
I will say, what they did when they were flying a mile a way from each other and couldn't hear each other was gold.
I think its an issue of creativity, not flying in general. Flying gives you near limitles possibilities, they can go anywhere, attack from any direction, dodge instantly, move without needing to rely on an external object ect. One thing I learned as a musician is that when you have unlimited options, you do the same thing you did the last time, you think the same way, you act the same way, and the result is the same. But when you have constraints, you are forced to work around them to make something interesting, you can no longer do what you did the last time because the constraints won't allow you to, so you end up with a different result. Two incredibly strong characters, flying around punching/hitting/zapping eachother, has almost no constraints. But cucially, all the constraints are either idendical, or very similar, no matter who the characters are or which movie they're in, so even in different franchises it still feels the same.
Conversely, a character like Spiderman has constraints, he needs to be able to shoot a web at an object solid enough to hold his weight, and the web needs to be able to get there in time without being blocked by something, and the result of the web sling needs to behave how the audience would expect. So unlike a superman style character, he can't always move any direction he wants.
Obviously its still possible to make a lazy spiderman fight sequence, but its inherently more constraining and allows you to be more creative. A good example is environment. Take the Superman and Zod fight and change the location, put them in the middle of the desert. The fight would by enlarge be the same, two dudes punching eachother in the air. But take Spiderman out of NYC and put him in a desert, now all of a sudden he is out of his element, severely handicapped and can no longer rely on his webswinging. The writers are now forced to do things differently purely because of context. These restrictions aren't nearly as easy to impose when the characters are free to move however they wish regardless of the environment.
Dude. Theres no way. No freaking way. You can't be human. I say it on almost every video but the frequency at which you put out these videos and the absolute top quality of them is mind blowing. I know its not your intention but by contrast you make other youtubers look like lazy complacent opportunist. I can't imagine the amount of hard work, research, and editing that you must put into your craft in order to consistently deliver a premium product in tour videos. Keep up the amazing work nerdstalgic. We are all grateful for the work you put into your craft. Thank you
Appreciate the kind words man! I’m just glad you guys are enjoying it, seriously
I think it’s less about fighting in the air, and more about how it’s handled. Like...literally every superhero air fight scene I’ve ever seen feels exactly the same. The outcome and dynamics of the fight are always super predictable. I wanna see one end with someone losing while they’re in the air, or going out into space. I wanna see one where they actively avoid buildings because they know smashing into one would hurt. Air fight scenes could be cool but they never are.
Hollyweirds imagination sucks
@@luistorres6956
it really sucks lol a lot of them are scared to take risks, ig for good reason one bad movie can mess things up for a lot of the people involved
@@user-sx4qu4dz9z lol I hear ya. The crazy part is they keep pumpin out bad movies. UA-cam has better quality talent smh lol
It actually makes a LOT of sense for superheroes to take fights to the air if, say, it pulls their enemy from a crowded area. Superman and Zod could go to the atmosphere (and do, briefly) and I can imagine Superman trying to drag Zod there to minimize damage to the people. You can still get them to knock each other through asteroids and satellites for impact, or create sonic booms to show how it feels.
I felt like his argument was pretty weak, it was mostly built on "physics" and threat to the characters which he mostly argued was not present when in flight but come on, they're super beings, just because they're in the air doesn't mean their punches no longer hurt or that getting slammed through buildings isn't really hurting them. The threat is each other and they are trying to hurt each other and sometimes in thr process they hurt those around them. Maybe if he argued something along the lines of superheroes that fight in the air never really end the fight in the air and instead end on the ground which is super repetitive, then he would have a pretty good argument but this one seems half-assed.
Superhero Fight: **Happens**
Person: STOP!
Everyone in the Theater: *My disappointment is immeasurable, and my day is ruined.*
@Ben John He is talking about the title says "The One Word Ruining fight scenes" and the only single word in the thumbnail is "stop" hence Guy Person is referring to the one word that is ruining the fight scenes as "Stop"
@brightblackhole it's to stop using the word, the word is physics I think
The entire video is about bad physics
@brightblackhole it's not about then saying it, it's the idea of poor physics in flight scenes. that's literally what the entire video was about. not them yelling stop
6:35 BRU thought Mavel and DC did some weird ass cross over for a second lol