I’m with Chuck. 300 blk for just about anything sub 10”. Basically there are handguns, then TP9, then 300 blk, then 11.5 and greater is 5.56. Guns between these choices are just illusions
People love to harp on how Hollywood Quiet Suppressor Shots arent real..but in truth, they are real when you have 9mm subs. I can comfortably rip a 9mm PCC with the can on it without earpro. I think PCCs with a can are absolutely a valid challenge to rifles when in a situation that you do not have ear protection. I do not want the first shot of my home defense scenario to cause permanent hearing damage.
Liked, for what the folks in the bottom row contributed. My usual bag gun, since the Nineties, and perhaps as long ago as the Eighties, has been a second duty handgun, or, a duty handgun in the bag while I wore a smaller-sized handgun.
@@ImperiumLibertas Well, to name one real-life example, of shooting farther, my Ruger GP100 could do a better job of shooting farther than a succession of 1911, Glock, and SIG duty pistols. (The difference was most notable, in the case of the Glocks, which were Gen3, a worse fit, in my hands, than Gen4/5.) To go off-topic, for a moment, the GP100 could also be effective at longer range than my duty shotgun, especially during the time when the only permitted shotgun ammo was 00 or #4 buck. As for shooting faster, a full-duty/service-sized G17 would enable me to shoot faster (and more accurately) than would a G19, and that is before we start hanging comps, WMLs, and optics on either. In actual practice, I found that I could conceal a G17 as easily as I could a G19, so, tended to carry a G17. Then, I phased-out my G19 pistols, anyway, when arthritis compelled me to stop training with them. Now, the most-immediate advantage of a bagged G17 is that it can have a longer mag inserted, for more continuity of fire, which I value more than split times. The most immediate advantage of the bag, itself, which is actually a quite compact Hill People Gear Tarahumara backpack, is that I can grab it, and have a G17, with spare mags, even if I am not dressed, and have to leave the house with mere seconds’ notice, with the bag/pack slung on one shoulder. I keep a holster in the bag/pack, and have spare clothes, spare shoes, and a belt in my truck. A KKM barrel + mini-comp, plus a spare Gen5 G19 slide I have acquired, are on hand, ready to be vetted, on my G19x, for that “shoot faster” part. The comp might help my arthritis, too, though the main thing is that a full-length grip, as found on the G17/G19x/G45, is the “orthopedic” factor. 😉
@@rexgigout1472 we're not talking a couple dozen meters more. We're talking 100m+ on a moving target. There is no world where a G17 out shoots a stocked weapon. More points of contact mean more accuracy. Plus a dedicated PDW (excluding pistol chassis like the flux) does not rely on a tilting barrel making them much more accurate at range. I don't think a PDW is strictly necessary. It fits the niche between a pistol and rifle which is admittedly a small portion of the use case spectrum. But in a civil unrest situation like the one Kyle Rittenhouse was in where multiple possible attackers across many distances were possible something more than a pistol would be more adequate for the job. Brass even makes the point that having a full sized rifle Kyle put a target on himself bringing him unwanted attention. Still, I think carrying a full sized pistol is a decent way to make the gap between pistol and rifle even smaller. I carry an MR920L which is an G17 length slide. I wouldn't have it any other way.
@@ImperiumLibertas True, using a stocked weapon is a best practice, in the event of a handgun fight, and, using a stocked weapon, that is firing a rifle cartridge, is a best practice as the range gets much beyond a couple dozen meters/yards. I think that we are on the same page, regarding weapon capability..
@@rexgigout1472 if you haven't you should check out brass facts video on PDWs. His scenario based requirements gathering is great. He identifies the problem and explains why a PDW is a good solution. It's more than just the ballistics! I'll digress. Great talking with you!
I think the 365 Raider completely changes this discussion - if I can conceal it easily, if I can draw it from concealment in less than a second, do bill drills in under 2 seconds, do sub 3.5 second dicken drills, etc - then I really like having this option for certain situations in between my Macro and carbine.
@@tacdriver22mk2 I haven't messed with it as much as I would like - but I have had very good success with a couple sub 5 oz titanium cans without a booster. We will be doing a lot more suppressor testing in the next few months.
The flux feels like a wanna be PDW. It does nothing a dedicated PDW couldn't do better. But given the current market I understand why it exists with the lack of civilian oriented PDWs on the market
@@BenfromFlux for cans, I was expecting to use the huxwrx cash 9k can. Have you checked that one out? After looking back into it that can isn't optimized for pistols which I guess the flux is. Their Rad cans seem promising though. 🤷🏻♂️
@@ImperiumLibertasI disagree og flux is lighter and smaller than any of them, and the p365 flux will come with an actual holster and be about the size of a g34. That's a big deal
"I want to get home 20 minutes earlier" is a really shitty reason to dramatically reduce your accountability as a cop. You should most definitely have to write up a report any time you as a cop draw a weapon and definitely when you pull out a rifle. That's just your job and you should know that as a cop who owes it to the people you Protect and Serve. I really like chuck, I don't hate cops, but the safety of those you protect and serve and your accountability to that and those people far outweighs your desire to get home sooner because your shift was long. Guess what, most salary positions keep people late for much less important reasons.
P90 and MP7 have been shown to be poor choices. Tier one units have gone back to 9mm for various reasons, but the anemic nature of 5.7 and 4.6 are certainly primary.
I have a ps90 sbr with a .22 wm can. It hits to 300 m w/ repeatability. no problem. P90 is possibly the most reliable subgun/pdw. There are relatively few of them in circulation, so it's less of a known character of the P90, but they are notably more reliable than most guns. I'd compare them to AK 47 reliability. I've shot a lot of P90 on about 4 gun sample group, plus one of my own. I cant remember a malfunction, ever. Some of them I shot over several years, manufacturer training guns, ultra high round count, tons of people mag dumping them, full auto. way over 30k + per gun. Obviously totally different animal than the micro rigs discussed due to weight/size and size of mags. I would consider P90s mp5ks etc to be sub guns because of weight. The micro rigs seem more like proper PDWs to me. Lately Ive been shooting an M&P 5.7 I picked up at whiteman. I havent shot it enough to have a strong opinion, but I like it. Splits are crazy. Range is absurd. weight is feather. Recoil extinct. High capacity. I never liked the FN five seven. M&P is miles above. Theoretically I would rather carry a 5.7 mp with a dot as a side arm with an AR, versus a P90. I prefer 5.7 to 9mm for every reason other than price/scarcity and it's an uncommon caliber for interchangeability. Im not sure about the performance losses in a shorter barrel, but if smith made their 5.7 in g19 or G43x form factor, it would be a good idea. As a pistol caliber, it has more combat advantages over all traditional handgun calibers. The advantages are distinct and measurable. I don't agree with people that claim the projectile is anemic. Compared to 5.56? Yes, but not compared to handgun calibers. People who claim 5.7 is weak for a handgun projectile have never killed anything with that caliber. It kills with performance somewhat between 9mm and 5.56. It's more lethal than 9mm.
Respectfully (love your stuff, long time fan), with all the SOF we work with, not a single group has had good things to say about the MP7/P90, particularly the terminal ballistics of 4.6 and 5.7. I have heard more than a dozen stories of missions/moments gone seriously bad, resulting in dudes dying, because of the anemic nature of these rounds. I have certainly not killed anything with either of them, but every test I have ever seen, public and not concludes that while it might be more effective on varmints compared to 9mm, when deeper penetration is needed (ie hoomans) it is not nearly as effective. Gthumb and Lucky Gunner have some recent tests that also demonstrate this. Maybe I am wrong, but this is the information I have, would love to know why you think differently. Keep on rocking.
No disrespect taken at all. Im aware of the NSW complaints about 4.6. I have not heard anything I would consider substantial on 5.7 and P90s. The P90 itself I dont need any testimony, it's an excellent sub gun, for sure, regardless of what anyone "thinks" about the round. NSW is great, but they are full of drama and do hit jobs on products like the entire period when the internet cursed away the Eotech, for example. I had NSW in a taskforce in Ramadi and I can attest they were just as retarded as we were. My judgement on the NSW horror stories is that they are examples of gross misapplication of MP7s. Im aware of the GT gel body tests and all the things the internet says about 5.7. I just dont accept them. 5.7 can kill whitetail, not just varmints. It is more lethal than 9mm simply due to external ballistics, weight and capacity, without regard to terminal effect. On terminals, my opinion is that it outperforms 9mm, even though people disagree with that. I dont think 5.7 or PDWs/Sub guns should be entertained to replace the role of rifles. That's a serious misapplication. I dont think they have a place besides accessory roles or confined spaces. P90 doesnt really have a role in my eyes besides a mechanized infantry PDW. Hosing people off tanks, etc. I think the mp 5.7 is pretty neat. It's much much better than the FN. I can see the 5.7 or some unknown successor replacing conventional 9mm. It makes more sense. Does everything 9mm does, but further, lighter, more rds and no recoil.@@BenfromFlux
I watched the lucky gunner video you mentioned. It was entertaining but a good portion of it is uncited/vaguely cited anecdotal deduction and rhetoric. IMO it's a poor argument against 5.7. Gel testing is good for comparative analysis between projos and the penetration depth is an important data point, yes. Cavitation IMO isnt so correlated to lethality as much as penetration. The only penetration necessary, is to connect to the CNS or its auxiliary bones. Not "vital organs". The other aspects of lethality are all outside of the terminal performance. If a shooter can hit the target in the CNS? How many opportunities does the shooter have to fire? Is the target in effective range. What does the round do in brush, what about against light cover? 9mm JHP wont even cut wire fence. The wire will split the bullet. FMJs are much better for shooting through any sort of light cover. Yet conventional wisdom insinuates JHPs are "better" or more effective than FMJs. People think they are HEDP. It isnt true, it's subjective, You can shoot a man in the CNS with an FMJ, he will die. Shoot a man in CNS with a JHP, if it connects, he's going down. Unknown thousands of people killed by 9mm FMJ in war. I once watched a man take 8 rds from an M240 bravo from nipple to hip. He was treated and survived. We also ordered him to stand up after being fired on and made him walk to us (or stumble), maybe 30 meters. It would be hyperbole of me to claim the m80 ball is underperforming. But that did happen. Same with 5.56. Pistols suck, are always poor performers. But the poor performance can be extended to longer distances, flatter trajectories, less recoil, faster target focused splits, with more rds, and less weight with a 5.7. All measurable. Biggest issue is they are all very long pistols, but they are much thinner and lighter than conventional pistols which is probably more important than barrel length over all. I think I would carry the 5.7 if it wasnt so long. (The above statement is unrelated to my affiliation with fiveseven d0t c0m or my weekly paycheck to promote the sale of SS197, 5.7 caliber and 5.7 accessories.) @@BenfromFlux
The easy answer for pistol caliber: MP5K-PDW (or semi-auto equivalent). If you really need a handgun with a stock, it's hard to beat that. Heavy, expensive, yes - but proven and it can accept a suppressor. Plenty of options for optics and adding lights these days. Manual of arms is definitely different from an AR but not hard to learn.
Proven is an arbitrary metric when you're talking civilian arms. So many options, so many use cases, to settle with an MP5K is to be stuck with tech from decades ago (and an expensive price tag) - as nice and as swag as the MP5 is, there are better alternatives.
It's a good thing that this "pain in the ass" argument is brought up because it's a consideration that is either completely ignored or is never thought of. Paul Harrell refers to it as program compliance. If something is a pain in the ass to do you are not likely to do it unless you have to. The gun you have with you is always better than the gun you left at home.
If the LEO kits for the OG USW didnt dry up and were still in production i think thatd be a solid option for the pdw argument. Now getting the gun, light and optic with no stock for what? 2.2k? (if they are in stock anywhere) is rough compared to the gun, light, stock, holster, sling and 3 mags for 2k when the USW LEO inspired kits first came out Though the 365 Raider being small enough to actually holster and conceal and shoot un shouldered before the stock is deployed may fill the role the USW filled pretty well? Eager to see what flux does with their glock flux brace they are supposedly revisiting and revising, that was small, fast to deploy and holsterable 🤷🏻♀️
Glock flux systems will be very close to the 365 design - and they are a significant improvement beyond the USW. Fast as a handgun, deployable with one hand, and much more shootable than the USW, due to proper offhand placement, better ergos, etc. Excited for the market to find these things out. A micro PDW/stocked handgun needs to be deployable as fast as a handgun, or it cannot replace your handgun.
@@BenfromFlux that sounds very promising, and definitely i agree with that last statement, there haven’t been any that have wholly hit the mark imo but with what you’re saying the flux very well may do it
Maybe if Kyle Rittenhouse had a bayonet attached to his rifle? It's psychological effect would have stopped criminals from attacking him. After all the cops usually never had to stab anyone. When they fixed bayonets. I loved my army basic bayonet training.
Yes bayonets are magical talismans that ward off evil and strikes fear in the hearts of your enemies... Its more about the psychological effect going the other way... boosting solder moral and belief in his combat ability.
Just came to say the crye Pdw patent is the theoretical answer to all of the questions and scenarios in the video. Sadly unless they quietly sell the patent to someone else it will never happen.
We played around with this concept years before the Crye patent - I don't think its feasible. It is technically possible, but the difficulty in creating it is likely why we will never see it.
If you want to talk shit about the MP7, I'm for it all day, but I think comparing it to the civilian side of PDW's, especially in reference to Somalia, it just falls flat. Its in the name, personal DEFENSE weapon. Guys using MP7's for ops is naughty youtube words because they're using it OFFENSIVELY. If I'm bringing a PDW, its because I'm expecting a situation where I want something as small and light as humanly possible, that isn't going to weigh me down, or get in the way, that I can strap down or pull out in less than 10 seconds. Its a very, VERY specific niche. Also got to keep in mind, in civilian heat, most people aren't wearing armor, which makes something like the MP7 doubly useless.
The action itself is a big part of why those pistol conversions aren't going to cut it. Then we get into the whole 9mm accuracy and drop problem. 5.7 with a fixed 7" barrel, delayed or gas action( to keep weight down) is about where we're at, but something like the 7.5FK except a Spitzer would be really close to 300blk performance.....
You can achieve same velocity using common handgun cartridges with specialty light for caliber bullets those loaded by Libery Civil Defense, while at the same time being able to use heavy for caliber sub sonic JHP for use with a suppressor.
Kinetic.44 velocity is only part of the issue with 9mm drop, the BC is so poor that the drop isn't much better with a 1600fps 80gr than it is with a 1100fps 124. 150-180 gr subs are doable in the 7.5 case and we're talking a 25/150 zero with a 90gr Spitzer at 2000fps. They made the right round then put it in the wrong gun to take advantage of it.
@@ImperiumLibertasthe best loads are like 9mm ball. It does what it was designed to do, shoot flat to 200 from a 10" gun and penetrate light armor. The armor performance isn't any better than some 9mm developed later, but you put the dot on the pie plate inside that 200 ..... a lot to be said for that and the weight when it comes to actually using it.
The stock not physically being attached basically makes it really annoying to hold to your body while not actively shouldering it which is a liability for any defensive purposes.
@curgunner This tool was made for taking pistol long shots. I own two. The latest version for 2024. And the version before that one. And hitting 57 yard targets with it is a great pleasure. Next week I will try the 200 and 400 yard targets. The Uvalde police department officer said he was afraid to take a pistol shot. Because he was scared of hitting a student. And I don't know just how far away he was.
@@christophertaylor4722 I’m sure it works for taking extended shots with a pistol, but I’m not sure how useful it would be in a defensive scenerio. There is a difference between taking static shots at distance and maneuvering around cover, taking quick shots as a threat appears, and manipulating things like doors or picking up an object while having your firearm available. Also I know it’s not your main point at all, but Uvalde PD is not something I would ever trust.
Why are we trying to turn a pistol into a PDW when there's nothing intrinsic to the design of a handgun that makes it fit for the job? All of these handgun braces and chassis are never going to perform as well as a dedicated PDW weapon. Problem is firearm manufacturers are not making civilian oriented PDWs with bag gun capabilities in mind. The fact that Brass Facts has only identified the TP9 as an adequate dedicated PDW on the market speaks especially with the TP9s terrible trigger.
The Raider (320) is absolutely zero-able. Watch Sage Dynamics review for proof of such. The accuracy of the Raider is ENTIRELY dependent on slide/barrel/fcu fitment, and yes, some slides with some barrels and maybe some FCUs can be sloppy. But if you have a good fitting barrel, you can get .65” groups at 25 yards, like Aaron Cowan did.
The entire unedited version is available to patreon subscribers. This and four other clips did not make the final edited version, which will be released Tuesday.
Brass facts is a knucklehead. Talks alot withiut saying anything worthwhile. Likes show he has guns by always flashing them?? Your comment about Rittenhouse was rookie at best ace. Suggestion, actively listen to Pressburg more and make sure you understand not just what he is saying but understanding his intent towards application. You are in such a hurry to talk that your mouth out runs your brain. Hops, great remark about the flux and zeroing. You know your kit👍🏻🏴☠️
Chill out dude. You obviously haven't listened to his civil unrest playlist or his PDW series. He outlines exactly why PDWs are useful for the civilian. Brass is right here when you take into account the situations where you may need something more than a pistol as a civilian.
Ahh, yes, the man who's advocating for PDW's wouldn't show off his very specific build that he's done specifically for the situation he's describing...
I’m with Chuck. 300 blk for just about anything sub 10”. Basically there are handguns, then TP9, then 300 blk, then 11.5 and greater is 5.56. Guns between these choices are just illusions
I don't agree with officers carrying long guns all the time. What if an acorn fell on my car?
Because that happens so frequently...
PDWs in common handgun calibers make a lot of sense when paired with sub sonic JHP and a suppressor.
Anything outside 9 and 10 mill makes a PDW useless
People love to harp on how Hollywood Quiet Suppressor Shots arent real..but in truth, they are real when you have 9mm subs. I can comfortably rip a 9mm PCC with the can on it without earpro. I think PCCs with a can are absolutely a valid challenge to rifles when in a situation that you do not have ear protection. I do not want the first shot of my home defense scenario to cause permanent hearing damage.
Liked, for what the folks in the bottom row contributed. My usual bag gun, since the Nineties, and perhaps as long ago as the Eighties, has been a second duty handgun, or, a duty handgun in the bag while I wore a smaller-sized handgun.
None of those are going to make you shoot faster or further which is the entire point of a PDW.
@@ImperiumLibertas Well, to name one real-life example, of shooting farther, my Ruger GP100 could do a better job of shooting farther than a succession of 1911, Glock, and SIG duty pistols. (The difference was most notable, in the case of the Glocks, which were Gen3, a worse fit, in my hands, than Gen4/5.) To go off-topic, for a moment, the GP100 could also be effective at longer range than my duty shotgun, especially during the time when the only permitted shotgun ammo was 00 or #4 buck.
As for shooting faster, a full-duty/service-sized G17 would enable me to shoot faster (and more accurately) than would a G19, and that is before we start hanging comps, WMLs, and optics on either. In actual practice, I found that I could conceal a G17 as easily as I could a G19, so, tended to carry a G17. Then, I phased-out my G19 pistols, anyway, when arthritis compelled me to stop training with them.
Now, the most-immediate advantage of a bagged G17 is that it can have a longer mag inserted, for more continuity of fire, which I value more than split times. The most immediate advantage of the bag, itself, which is actually a quite compact Hill People Gear Tarahumara backpack, is that I can grab it, and have a G17, with spare mags, even if I am not dressed, and have to leave the house with mere seconds’ notice, with the bag/pack slung on one shoulder. I keep a holster in the bag/pack, and have spare clothes, spare shoes, and a belt in my truck.
A KKM barrel + mini-comp, plus a spare Gen5 G19 slide I have acquired, are on hand, ready to be vetted, on my G19x, for that “shoot faster” part. The comp might help my arthritis, too, though the main thing is that a full-length grip, as found on the G17/G19x/G45, is the “orthopedic” factor. 😉
@@rexgigout1472 we're not talking a couple dozen meters more. We're talking 100m+ on a moving target.
There is no world where a G17 out shoots a stocked weapon. More points of contact mean more accuracy. Plus a dedicated PDW (excluding pistol chassis like the flux) does not rely on a tilting barrel making them much more accurate at range.
I don't think a PDW is strictly necessary. It fits the niche between a pistol and rifle which is admittedly a small portion of the use case spectrum. But in a civil unrest situation like the one Kyle Rittenhouse was in where multiple possible attackers across many distances were possible something more than a pistol would be more adequate for the job. Brass even makes the point that having a full sized rifle Kyle put a target on himself bringing him unwanted attention.
Still, I think carrying a full sized pistol is a decent way to make the gap between pistol and rifle even smaller. I carry an MR920L which is an G17 length slide. I wouldn't have it any other way.
@@ImperiumLibertas True, using a stocked weapon is a best practice, in the event of a handgun fight, and, using a stocked weapon, that is firing a rifle cartridge, is a best practice as the range gets much beyond a couple dozen meters/yards. I think that we are on the same page, regarding weapon capability..
@@rexgigout1472 if you haven't you should check out brass facts video on PDWs. His scenario based requirements gathering is great. He identifies the problem and explains why a PDW is a good solution. It's more than just the ballistics! I'll digress. Great talking with you!
I think the 365 Raider completely changes this discussion - if I can conceal it easily, if I can draw it from concealment in less than a second, do bill drills in under 2 seconds, do sub 3.5 second dicken drills, etc - then I really like having this option for certain situations in between my Macro and carbine.
I want one bad, ideally with a can but p365 aren't exactly an ideal host for a can reliability wise
@@tacdriver22mk2 I haven't messed with it as much as I would like - but I have had very good success with a couple sub 5 oz titanium cans without a booster. We will be doing a lot more suppressor testing in the next few months.
The flux feels like a wanna be PDW. It does nothing a dedicated PDW couldn't do better. But given the current market I understand why it exists with the lack of civilian oriented PDWs on the market
@@BenfromFlux for cans, I was expecting to use the huxwrx cash 9k can. Have you checked that one out?
After looking back into it that can isn't optimized for pistols which I guess the flux is. Their Rad cans seem promising though. 🤷🏻♂️
@@ImperiumLibertasI disagree og flux is lighter and smaller than any of them, and the p365 flux will come with an actual holster and be about the size of a g34. That's a big deal
"I want to get home 20 minutes earlier" is a really shitty reason to dramatically reduce your accountability as a cop. You should most definitely have to write up a report any time you as a cop draw a weapon and definitely when you pull out a rifle. That's just your job and you should know that as a cop who owes it to the people you Protect and Serve. I really like chuck, I don't hate cops, but the safety of those you protect and serve and your accountability to that and those people far outweighs your desire to get home sooner because your shift was long. Guess what, most salary positions keep people late for much less important reasons.
P90 and MP7 have been shown to be poor choices. Tier one units have gone back to 9mm for various reasons, but the anemic nature of 5.7 and 4.6 are certainly primary.
I like the idea of the chassis for leaving it in a car.
oh boy!
I have a ps90 sbr with a .22 wm can. It hits to 300 m w/ repeatability. no problem. P90 is possibly the most reliable subgun/pdw. There are relatively few of them in circulation, so it's less of a known character of the P90, but they are notably more reliable than most guns. I'd compare them to AK 47 reliability. I've shot a lot of P90 on about 4 gun sample group, plus one of my own. I cant remember a malfunction, ever. Some of them I shot over several years, manufacturer training guns, ultra high round count, tons of people mag dumping them, full auto. way over 30k + per gun. Obviously totally different animal than the micro rigs discussed due to weight/size and size of mags. I would consider P90s mp5ks etc to be sub guns because of weight. The micro rigs seem more like proper PDWs to me. Lately Ive been shooting an M&P 5.7 I picked up at whiteman. I havent shot it enough to have a strong opinion, but I like it. Splits are crazy. Range is absurd. weight is feather. Recoil extinct. High capacity. I never liked the FN five seven. M&P is miles above. Theoretically I would rather carry a 5.7 mp with a dot as a side arm with an AR, versus a P90. I prefer 5.7 to 9mm for every reason other than price/scarcity and it's an uncommon caliber for interchangeability. Im not sure about the performance losses in a shorter barrel, but if smith made their 5.7 in g19 or G43x form factor, it would be a good idea. As a pistol caliber, it has more combat advantages over all traditional handgun calibers. The advantages are distinct and measurable. I don't agree with people that claim the projectile is anemic. Compared to 5.56? Yes, but not compared to handgun calibers. People who claim 5.7 is weak for a handgun projectile have never killed anything with that caliber. It kills with performance somewhat between 9mm and 5.56. It's more lethal than 9mm.
Do you still have my number?
I have email in the channel "more about". YT doesnt even let me write it out phonetically. Deletes it.@@PrimaryAndSecondary
Respectfully (love your stuff, long time fan), with all the SOF we work with, not a single group has had good things to say about the MP7/P90, particularly the terminal ballistics of 4.6 and 5.7. I have heard more than a dozen stories of missions/moments gone seriously bad, resulting in dudes dying, because of the anemic nature of these rounds. I have certainly not killed anything with either of them, but every test I have ever seen, public and not concludes that while it might be more effective on varmints compared to 9mm, when deeper penetration is needed (ie hoomans) it is not nearly as effective. Gthumb and Lucky Gunner have some recent tests that also demonstrate this. Maybe I am wrong, but this is the information I have, would love to know why you think differently. Keep on rocking.
No disrespect taken at all. Im aware of the NSW complaints about 4.6. I have not heard anything I would consider substantial on 5.7 and P90s. The P90 itself I dont need any testimony, it's an excellent sub gun, for sure, regardless of what anyone "thinks" about the round. NSW is great, but they are full of drama and do hit jobs on products like the entire period when the internet cursed away the Eotech, for example. I had NSW in a taskforce in Ramadi and I can attest they were just as retarded as we were. My judgement on the NSW horror stories is that they are examples of gross misapplication of MP7s. Im aware of the GT gel body tests and all the things the internet says about 5.7. I just dont accept them. 5.7 can kill whitetail, not just varmints. It is more lethal than 9mm simply due to external ballistics, weight and capacity, without regard to terminal effect. On terminals, my opinion is that it outperforms 9mm, even though people disagree with that. I dont think 5.7 or PDWs/Sub guns should be entertained to replace the role of rifles. That's a serious misapplication. I dont think they have a place besides accessory roles or confined spaces. P90 doesnt really have a role in my eyes besides a mechanized infantry PDW. Hosing people off tanks, etc. I think the mp 5.7 is pretty neat. It's much much better than the FN. I can see the 5.7 or some unknown successor replacing conventional 9mm. It makes more sense. Does everything 9mm does, but further, lighter, more rds and no recoil.@@BenfromFlux
I watched the lucky gunner video you mentioned. It was entertaining but a good portion of it is uncited/vaguely cited anecdotal deduction and rhetoric. IMO it's a poor argument against 5.7.
Gel testing is good for comparative analysis between projos and the penetration depth is an important data point, yes. Cavitation IMO isnt so correlated to lethality as much as penetration. The only penetration necessary, is to connect to the CNS or its auxiliary bones. Not "vital organs". The other aspects of lethality are all outside of the terminal performance. If a shooter can hit the target in the CNS? How many opportunities does the shooter have to fire? Is the target in effective range. What does the round do in brush, what about against light cover? 9mm JHP wont even cut wire fence. The wire will split the bullet. FMJs are much better for shooting through any sort of light cover. Yet conventional wisdom insinuates JHPs are "better" or more effective than FMJs. People think they are HEDP. It isnt true, it's subjective, You can shoot a man in the CNS with an FMJ, he will die. Shoot a man in CNS with a JHP, if it connects, he's going down. Unknown thousands of people killed by 9mm FMJ in war.
I once watched a man take 8 rds from an M240 bravo from nipple to hip. He was treated and survived. We also ordered him to stand up after being fired on and made him walk to us (or stumble), maybe 30 meters. It would be hyperbole of me to claim the m80 ball is underperforming. But that did happen. Same with 5.56.
Pistols suck, are always poor performers. But the poor performance can be extended to longer distances, flatter trajectories, less recoil, faster target focused splits, with more rds, and less weight with a 5.7. All measurable. Biggest issue is they are all very long pistols, but they are much thinner and lighter than conventional pistols which is probably more important than barrel length over all. I think I would carry the 5.7 if it wasnt so long.
(The above statement is unrelated to my affiliation with fiveseven d0t c0m or my weekly paycheck to promote the sale of SS197, 5.7 caliber and 5.7 accessories.) @@BenfromFlux
I want a pdw but all the options either suck or out of stock
17:35 a suppressor is legally a firearm. This should change.
The easy answer for pistol caliber: MP5K-PDW (or semi-auto equivalent). If you really need a handgun with a stock, it's hard to beat that. Heavy, expensive, yes - but proven and it can accept a suppressor. Plenty of options for optics and adding lights these days. Manual of arms is definitely different from an AR but not hard to learn.
B&T TP9 is honestly better in most metrics.
Proven is an arbitrary metric when you're talking civilian arms. So many options, so many use cases, to settle with an MP5K is to be stuck with tech from decades ago (and an expensive price tag) - as nice and as swag as the MP5 is, there are better alternatives.
My raider maintains zero pretty solid granted I don’t go stripping it down a ton and my fcu is pretty tight in the chassis
It's a good thing that this "pain in the ass" argument is brought up because it's a consideration that is either completely ignored or is never thought of. Paul Harrell refers to it as program compliance. If something is a pain in the ass to do you are not likely to do it unless you have to. The gun you have with you is always better than the gun you left at home.
If the LEO kits for the OG USW didnt dry up and were still in production i think thatd be a solid option for the pdw argument. Now getting the gun, light and optic with no stock for what? 2.2k? (if they are in stock anywhere) is rough compared to the gun, light, stock, holster, sling and 3 mags for 2k when the USW LEO inspired kits first came out
Though the 365 Raider being small enough to actually holster and conceal and shoot un shouldered before the stock is deployed may fill the role the USW filled pretty well?
Eager to see what flux does with their glock flux brace they are supposedly revisiting and revising, that was small, fast to deploy and holsterable 🤷🏻♀️
Glock flux systems will be very close to the 365 design - and they are a significant improvement beyond the USW. Fast as a handgun, deployable with one hand, and much more shootable than the USW, due to proper offhand placement, better ergos, etc. Excited for the market to find these things out. A micro PDW/stocked handgun needs to be deployable as fast as a handgun, or it cannot replace your handgun.
@@BenfromFlux that sounds very promising, and definitely i agree with that last statement, there haven’t been any that have wholly hit the mark imo but with what you’re saying the flux very well may do it
If you're an operator making over 90% of your shots in heads doing CQB, PDWs might make sense running protection while trying to be discrete.
Maybe if Kyle Rittenhouse had a bayonet attached to his rifle? It's psychological effect would have stopped criminals from attacking him. After all the cops usually never had to stab anyone. When they fixed bayonets.
I loved my army basic bayonet training.
Yes bayonets are magical talismans that ward off evil and strikes fear in the hearts of your enemies...
Its more about the psychological effect going the other way... boosting solder moral and belief in his combat ability.
@Kinetic.44
When that magical Talisman bayonet gets to within 21 feet of you. You should be very, very concerned.
Sig Rattler next question
Just came to say the crye Pdw patent is the theoretical answer to all of the questions and scenarios in the video. Sadly unless they quietly sell the patent to someone else it will never happen.
It would probably be too large to fit into the brass facts size pdw concept.
We played around with this concept years before the Crye patent - I don't think its feasible. It is technically possible, but the difficulty in creating it is likely why we will never see it.
9 and 10 mill are the only calibers PDW’s should be chambered in. The MP7 could be so much better but it’s not.
5.7?
7.5 AR with folding stock for the win.
Hops point about the raider being unzeroable is 100%. I have to and the lose zero all the time and group like shit. If you have one, do the chop.
If you want to talk shit about the MP7, I'm for it all day, but I think comparing it to the civilian side of PDW's, especially in reference to Somalia, it just falls flat. Its in the name, personal DEFENSE weapon. Guys using MP7's for ops is naughty youtube words because they're using it OFFENSIVELY. If I'm bringing a PDW, its because I'm expecting a situation where I want something as small and light as humanly possible, that isn't going to weigh me down, or get in the way, that I can strap down or pull out in less than 10 seconds.
Its a very, VERY specific niche. Also got to keep in mind, in civilian heat, most people aren't wearing armor, which makes something like the MP7 doubly useless.
The action itself is a big part of why those pistol conversions aren't going to cut it. Then we get into the whole 9mm accuracy and drop problem. 5.7 with a fixed 7" barrel, delayed or gas action( to keep weight down) is about where we're at, but something like the 7.5FK except a Spitzer would be really close to 300blk performance.....
You can achieve same velocity using common handgun cartridges with specialty light for caliber bullets those loaded by Libery Civil Defense, while at the same time being able to use heavy for caliber sub sonic JHP for use with a suppressor.
Kinetic.44 velocity is only part of the issue with 9mm drop, the BC is so poor that the drop isn't much better with a 1600fps 80gr than it is with a 1100fps 124. 150-180 gr subs are doable in the 7.5 case and we're talking a 25/150 zero with a 90gr Spitzer at 2000fps. They made the right round then put it in the wrong gun to take advantage of it.
5.7 has terrible soft target performance when compared to 9mm.
@@ImperiumLibertasthe best loads are like 9mm ball. It does what it was designed to do, shoot flat to 200 from a 10" gun and penetrate light armor. The armor performance isn't any better than some 9mm developed later, but you put the dot on the pie plate inside that 200 ..... a lot to be said for that and the weight when it comes to actually using it.
9mm from a 10" gun and defeats soft armor? What?
Get a PDW
Choose Flux
That is all
Nope sig rattler
The One Shot stock has already proved this solution. And it doesn't attach to your handgun. No NFA problems.
The stock not physically being attached basically makes it really annoying to hold to your body while not actively shouldering it which is a liability for any defensive purposes.
@curgunner
This tool was made for taking pistol long shots. I own two. The latest version for 2024. And the version before that one. And hitting 57 yard targets with it is a great pleasure. Next week I will try the 200 and 400 yard targets.
The Uvalde police department officer said he was afraid to take a pistol shot. Because he was scared of hitting a student.
And I don't know just how far away he was.
@@christophertaylor4722 I’m sure it works for taking extended shots with a pistol, but I’m not sure how useful it would be in a defensive scenerio. There is a difference between taking static shots at distance and maneuvering around cover, taking quick shots as a threat appears, and manipulating things like doors or picking up an object while having your firearm available.
Also I know it’s not your main point at all, but Uvalde PD is not something I would ever trust.
Why are we trying to turn a pistol into a PDW when there's nothing intrinsic to the design of a handgun that makes it fit for the job?
All of these handgun braces and chassis are never going to perform as well as a dedicated PDW weapon. Problem is firearm manufacturers are not making civilian oriented PDWs with bag gun capabilities in mind.
The fact that Brass Facts has only identified the TP9 as an adequate dedicated PDW on the market speaks especially with the TP9s terrible trigger.
No. This is not a good solution.
The Raider (320) is absolutely zero-able. Watch Sage Dynamics review for proof of such. The accuracy of the Raider is ENTIRELY dependent on slide/barrel/fcu fitment, and yes, some slides with some barrels and maybe some FCUs can be sloppy. But if you have a good fitting barrel, you can get .65” groups at 25 yards, like Aaron Cowan did.
lol fantasy land brass facts talk
Brass talks like Jordan Peterson
Are two Internet idiots who maybe shoot at an NRA Basic level debating a Tier 1 Assaulter? Who finds this interesting?
Where is there a debate?
Who are you?
hey I dont give a fuck about all these clips wheres the actual viseo
The entire unedited version is available to patreon subscribers. This and four other clips did not make the final edited version, which will be released Tuesday.
Thank you Matt 😊
@@PrimaryAndSecondary my bad
No worries
Brass facts is a knucklehead. Talks alot withiut saying anything worthwhile. Likes show he has guns by always flashing them?? Your comment about Rittenhouse was rookie at best ace. Suggestion, actively listen to Pressburg more and make sure you understand not just what he is saying but understanding his intent towards application. You are in such a hurry to talk that your mouth out runs your brain. Hops, great remark about the flux and zeroing. You know your kit👍🏻🏴☠️
Brass' comments were fine. The Rittenhouse comment was a consideration.
Chill out dude. You obviously haven't listened to his civil unrest playlist or his PDW series. He outlines exactly why PDWs are useful for the civilian. Brass is right here when you take into account the situations where you may need something more than a pistol as a civilian.
Like the guy, but yeah he talks a little too much
Ahh, yes, the man who's advocating for PDW's wouldn't show off his very specific build that he's done specifically for the situation he's describing...
@@UMADBRO64 idk what you're on about.
Get a PDW
Choose Flux
That is all