exactly!! the best thing about this is Peter's philosophy, to dissect the theory and understand the subject and build from there. I share his annoyance at the nay sayers, those who speak and do nothing... this video is an inspiration!
@Pssound yet another great video, I can't thank you enough for the fact that you "show & prove" we appreciate your time, talent and effort. It's not fun if we're Not thinking "outside of the box" and I'm personally glad that you do.
I love how this video is set up. Explain the graph and chart, pull the screen down, then you see the sub box and the 30 plus trophies in the background, which shows validation every time. You have a chart.... you have an explanation...... and you have VALIDATION!
Justin check out all the comments, this video has created quite a heat and many people are right about what i did wrong and I didn’t tick all the boxes for everyone.
@@pssound9749 bro you already bro you already did five things wrong before you posted the video LOL you know how this works LOL! You are you are damned to do 10 things wrong before you even started the video up. People are going to be right no matter what because they can be on the internet. And they definitely won't build the box themselves and try it. Do any of these do any of the naysayers give any of their credentials?
Are you saying something negatively happened or positive? Because I just assumed that it was all negative but looked and it didn't appear to be. It all seemed to be nice comments!
it sounds amazing in my cinema room at home the clarity and depth and space from thoes drums is just so airy its a very nicely recorded track. i have 4 aeriel acoustics 18" subwoobers and ada amplifiers and prosessors. and my room is treated and eq'ed. I have to say it reminded me of a chris rea track oh and on a side niote puly for intrest my subs are all sealed
I dabbled with OB for my home audio a few years back and I have to say that OB is without a doubt the best sounding speakers and subs you can have to my ears. The lack of compression and "box-sound".. a vague term like natural becomes very obvious. It kind of have to be experienced though. It is different but it does work beautifully. Thank you for this video!
I wanted to build this myself many years ago as a better version of the Celestion stystem 6000 12" x 4 open air dipole sub I had. Problem with it was all that mass rocking forwards and backwards and I figured a w configuration like this would cancel out that rocking and wasted energy. My old Harman Kardon has sub out and automatic EQ with mic that adjusted for the 6db per octave roll of from 70hz and down you got on the open air dipole automatically :)
@@pssound9749 I didn't feel the need to state the obvious because the front and rear are separated by the baffle and it's similar to an idea I've been pondering.
You don't do things by halfs mate! 😂 Looks sweet and sounds ok on my headphones 🤷♂️. Maybe 1 day I can get a demo! Keep the videos coming and stay safe 👌👍
The open baffle sub will be much more sensitive to room placement....A more revealing test would be to eq each configuration to flat. A display of harmonic distortion limitation is also in order....If the OB can play down to 30hz at 100db, low distortion, thats great..... 80db aint nothin....headroom isn't always about playing really loud, it can be about the achieving compression/distortion free playback at normal listening levels...so this might work for an audiophile listener but you aren't going to see an open baffle sub in the studio serving a sound engineer.
I've done a few open baffle tests. 1 ficar 12 under a seat. It almost was satisfying. It's sealed for now. Some testing with stereo integrity 18s free air was surprisingly amazing. Those are infinite now. Open baffle is detailed, fast response, smooth, and uncolored sound. My experience with open baffle leads me to think large cone area and multiple subs will lead to good results. You still are using some chambered segmented open box. Is that open box better than free air? Love to hear more demo music, we hear you on the copyright, but still listing is the fun part.
Yes ;) Incredible clean and fast bass from open baffle. Used to have open baffle sub but it wasted a lot of energy shaking itself. Figured out a w configuration just like he has made here would solve that problem. Never got around to building it myself...
James Hewson maybe one day, although as i run everything fully active and requires setting up to the individual environment, i’m not sure how it could work out
Love your videos they are very informative. After looking at your measurements on the floor standers, Have you thought about using open baffle (H-Frames) servo subs as GR Research (Danny Richie) uses? He claims they are really fast and will keep up with open baffle and manipan speakers and they play really low as well.
You and I think a lot alike Peter. Nice system. I’m wondering what your thoughts are on underdamped subs. IB and OB is supposed to have a Q of about .7 on the woofers. But I think of higher Q as distortion because it puts a tail on the signal. I think this is a misconception in my mind. I’ve done a lot of reading but cannot find anything that satisfies my curiosity. I may just have to buy a couple of low Q subs and try it for myself.
And did you? I plan on using some Dayton UM15's in my car but the Qts is 0.47 Its not very high, but its Fs is 19hz... which is nice! And maybe I'll use them as IB in my listening room to complement my Apogee Duetta Ribbon open baffles ... in a manifold, so the lower Qts might be better then...
on another side not have you thought of using just purely mono block amplifiers for everything so you have more headroom and everything has more seperation electronicly and then you dont need a preamp stage as the zapco does this.
Only1Stefan i have thought about everything, but at this stage of this room all that money would be a waste to spend! Once the room is fully finished and I’m happy with all speakers too, then i’ll into amp upgrade, BUT people would shit themselves if they heard the setup even with these old amps without knowing what they are.
@@pssound9749 im sure they would alot of people concentrate to much on what equipment they have than acctualy using what they have and setting it up to get the best out of it like room treatment and dsp the first making a big difference but you already know that ;-)
you should be able to reach lower with a OB, it just takes a bit more power to compensate fr the roll off :) still wondering why you would ahve all these toffees in the back :) there is a thing closing them to "closed" does not work like that unless you use the volume they need to reach low. im pretty sure this huge woofers in a closed box need MUCH more then this tiny enclosure. so. yeah its not at all a comparison. you will lose allot of power in the OB for compensating. but yeah 2 x 12 inches with huge Xmax is more then enough in a normal room. so thats not a problem.
@@pssound9749 ua-cam.com/video/iPjISoT7uKo/v-deo.html says i sealed them up. that means it has by far not enough liters to perform as a closed box. aah i think you mean , the troffee thing :) yeah i guess something with cars and SPL :) anyways it might be a dutch thing. i would not put them in view since you will be asked about them non stop, and unlike you go hard on that :) leave them standing there :) nice OB mains by the way ! the measuring technique. is well known. use gating else its not valid. doing 5 and then take an average still is not correct. better for sure :) just not complete :) in a car that seems indeed impossible :(
Couple of questions, do both subs fire in phase with each other and at what point does a design like that become considered isobaric? Or does none of that matter in an open baffle environment ?
Colby Dolby it’s not isobaric ever unless you put them out of phase with each other and sealed the centre chamber up (even then you’d want the centre chamber as small as possible to acoustically couple the two drivers), they are played in phase with each other in this design and the front of the side chambers and the rear of the centre chamber are all open 👍🏼
Thanks for the reply, so I'm wondering how close can two subs be firing directly at each other or technically what would be a safe distance between each other without causing some crazy issues ? I'm building an underseat subwoofer box in a pickup truck and the tolerances are tight. Been wondering if I can fire the subs directly at each other ,maximum distance 6 to 8 inches.
How to calculate what low bass my room can Support’s Example if my room supports 30 and if I get a bass box that technically supports 20 will I get 20 in room or I will not
@@pssound9749 Wow that would be awesome! I'd like to see which one can hit more spl before harmonic distortion is 5% (-25 db). I have found the ib15s to be great in many songs but a little sluggish at times. Maybe mms is too high for upper bass?
I meant that structure in that configuration, if it works in a larger room ,it should function in a car, isnt that the purpose of your demonstration to show that it has some type of efficacy
eduardo batista it’s in a large room, where long wavelength has a chance to work, while in a car room boundaries are way way closer. I don’t want to say anything for your question as it has never been tested, but i don’t even see a point, unless you can separate front and rear wave in the trunk, like trunk IB. Having said that, you’re more than welcome to test is, just let us know! 😃
Interesting video and I'm surprised these subs can go as low as 30 Hz. But the comparison with the barely sealed subs only proves that the sealed configuration is more efficient (and it's far from being sealed...). Your justification on the possible advantages is purely subjective, "attack" and "decay" are in the bode plot of the frequency response with the phase. The "decay" here is mainly driven by the acoustics of the room, that seems poorly treated (no low frequency absorber). By looking at the high excursion of the driver, it should be good to present the distortion measurement of the setup at high level ~100 dB, it's probably way higher than the typical recommended 1%...
Etilocal 100%, it wasn’t a test to show every single element of the measurements, it was just based on the fact that people were saying that this structure wouldn’t produce bass compared to a box. You can argue about my quick test whether it was 100% sealed or not, it will probably not got settled until i glue a plate on it, but I wouldn’t worry about it for now. Room is untreated...of course it is! Check out the playlist of this project and see what the plan is! It will be treated step by step. My opinion is as subjective as anyone else’s who make reviews of speakers without any measurements. Nobody has to take it seriously without knowing me and what my reference and background is. Having said that, i fully agree, that once measurements are taken, they should go into full details then and when i can justify the time spent on that including building, testing, video shooting and editing, then i’ll do that too. At the moment I definitely struggle to find time for everything, hopefully i can improve on that too.
Darren Chance if I remember correctly, that car doesn’t have a solid roof, right? When you do IB, the car is the box, so it has to be solid. I think in your case only a box solution is possible and if you want “IB-like” performance, then you need much cone area and subs that can drop low and play well in sealed enclosure. Cross them low, give them lots of clean power and then it can be close to IB life.
Darren Chance it won’t work as the front and the rear of this structure is open, you’ll get massive cancellations in such small space. If you could do trunk IB, then it could work, but you don’t even have a sealed trunk, do you?
Unless you’re still competing as an adult with great results and you don’t want to drop your trophies away. Many successful shops have similar displays too, what i see no problems with as then i have extra assurance that they know their stuff! 💪👍🔊🔊
hey buddy i have no clue why you're calling your sub an open baffle ,it is not this is a classic triple chamber bandpass sub and the response curve is typical of this type of topology cheers
Hifi enthusiasts: "Only $100k+ hifi systems with the most expensive components can possibly sound good"
Peter: "Hold my beer"
Matesosh pretty much! 😂
exactly!! the best thing about this is Peter's philosophy, to dissect the theory and understand the subject and build from there. I share his annoyance at the nay sayers, those who speak and do nothing... this video is an inspiration!
There should be a Kick-Ass affordable system called "Hold My Beer"!!
I’d say the 37 trophies behind your subs proves you absolutely know wtf you’re talking about. Fantastic video can’t wait to see what’s next. 👍
@Pssound yet another great video, I can't thank you enough for the fact that you "show & prove" we appreciate your time, talent and effort. It's not fun if we're Not thinking "outside of the box" and I'm personally glad that you do.
0:37 This explains EVERYTHING to me! I understand why your car audio installs are so awesome!
they look like a carr install to a bit, love the OB's but not so muich the sub .. JBL with logos.... thats not charming at all
@@joppepeelen They are special. Read up on their design.
Just wow, the research you do and demo really helps in the understanding of music and systems
My B&O S80's with 8 inch drivers played that song nicely. Sweet Bass rumble. I'm feeling the design of your speakers.
i thought you said B&Q
@@levrone0075 Bang and Olufsen
I love how this video is set up.
Explain the graph and chart, pull the screen down, then you see the sub box and the 30 plus trophies in the background, which shows validation every time.
You have a chart.... you have an explanation...... and you have VALIDATION!
Justin check out all the comments, this video has created quite a heat and many people are right about what i did wrong and I didn’t tick all the boxes for everyone.
@@pssound9749 bro you already bro you already did five things wrong before you posted the video LOL you know how this works LOL! You are you are damned to do 10 things wrong before you even started the video up. People are going to be right no matter what because they can be on the internet. And they definitely won't build the box themselves and try it.
Do any of these do any of the naysayers give any of their credentials?
Are you saying something negatively happened or positive? Because I just assumed that it was all negative but looked and it didn't appear to be. It all seemed to be nice comments!
Exciting insight into open baffle😃 and if there is one thing the world doesn’t lack, it is people who make ignorant statements🤷🏼♂️
Good show Peter! I was expecting this video for the last few days.
it sounds amazing in my cinema room at home the clarity and depth and space from thoes drums is just so airy its a very nicely recorded track. i have 4 aeriel acoustics 18" subwoobers and ada amplifiers and prosessors. and my room is treated and eq'ed. I have to say it reminded me of a chris rea track oh and on a side niote puly for intrest my subs are all sealed
Love the force cancelling !
Always wonders if you did home audio , I built my center channel infinite baffle also , sound decent also !! Nice system peter!!
Ah those beautiful jbl's! Nicely done sir! Xx
Even though it’s a phone, we definitely get an idea of how it sounds. Thanks
That set-up looks sweet!
I dabbled with OB for my home audio a few years back and I have to say that OB is without a doubt the best sounding speakers and subs you can have to my ears. The lack of compression and "box-sound".. a vague term like natural becomes very obvious. It kind of have to be experienced though. It is different but it does work beautifully. Thank you for this video!
I wanted to build this myself many years ago as a better version of the Celestion stystem 6000 12" x 4 open air dipole sub I had. Problem with it was all that mass rocking forwards and backwards and I figured a w configuration like this would cancel out that rocking and wasted energy. My old Harman Kardon has sub out and automatic EQ with mic that adjusted for the 6db per octave roll of from 70hz and down you got on the open air dipole automatically :)
Wow! There is so much to learn from this video.
I admire your efforts to do what YOU feel is best for YOUR purpose. We need more MEN to disregard the naysayers and keyboard critics
JaMarvelous jmar662601 did you edit your comment from the previous thought that this is more like bandpass and ported?
@@pssound9749 I didn't feel the need to state the obvious because the front and rear are separated by the baffle and it's similar to an idea I've been pondering.
I like it it looks very futuristic pretty cool
You don't do things by halfs mate! 😂 Looks sweet and sounds ok on my headphones 🤷♂️. Maybe 1 day I can get a demo! Keep the videos coming and stay safe 👌👍
The open baffle sub will be much more sensitive to room placement....A more revealing test would be to eq each configuration to flat. A display of harmonic distortion limitation is also in order....If the OB can play down to 30hz at 100db, low distortion, thats great..... 80db aint nothin....headroom isn't always about playing really loud, it can be about the achieving compression/distortion free playback at normal listening levels...so this might work for an audiophile listener but you aren't going to see an open baffle sub in the studio serving a sound engineer.
True true and i never stated that.
I've done a few open baffle tests. 1 ficar 12 under a seat. It almost was satisfying. It's sealed for now. Some testing with stereo integrity 18s free air was surprisingly amazing. Those are infinite now. Open baffle is detailed, fast response, smooth, and uncolored sound. My experience with open baffle leads me to think large cone area and multiple subs will lead to good results. You still are using some chambered segmented open box. Is that open box better than free air? Love to hear more demo music, we hear you on the copyright, but still listing is the fun part.
H Accord 👌.. searching through to find right track which I liked
Nice! Good info. Thanks for sharing!
How do the sealed and open baffle compare in a roomeq csd waterfall plot? Maybe the better decay time shows up?
Peter you are the Michelangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni of Car Audio
🤣🤣
That front wall reminds me DJ Mehdi - Signatune (Official Video)
there is no bass like the effortless open baffle bass!
Yes ;) Incredible clean and fast bass from open baffle. Used to have open baffle sub but it wasted a lot of energy shaking itself. Figured out a w configuration just like he has made here would solve that problem. Never got around to building it myself...
You need to do the subwoofer crawl for subwoofer box in a room
I’ve done that, but i don’t want to share it, people would freak out! 🤣
Aloha Peter! The OB speakers look great -do you plan to develop them for sale as a DIY or complete speaker to the public?I hope so...
James Hewson maybe one day, although as i run everything fully active and requires setting up to the individual environment, i’m not sure how it could work out
Great ves marstro
Love your videos they are very informative. After looking at your measurements on the floor standers, Have you thought about using open baffle (H-Frames) servo subs as GR Research (Danny Richie) uses? He claims they are really fast and will keep up with open baffle and manipan speakers and they play really low as well.
You and I think a lot alike Peter. Nice system. I’m wondering what your thoughts are on underdamped subs. IB and OB is supposed to have a Q of about .7 on the woofers. But I think of higher Q as distortion because it puts a tail on the signal. I think this is a misconception in my mind. I’ve done a lot of reading but cannot find anything that satisfies my curiosity. I may just have to buy a couple of low Q subs and try it for myself.
And did you?
I plan on using some Dayton UM15's in my car but the Qts is 0.47 Its not very high, but its Fs is 19hz... which is nice! And maybe I'll use them as IB in my listening room to complement my Apogee Duetta Ribbon open baffles ... in a manifold, so the lower Qts might be better then...
on another side not have you thought of using just purely mono block amplifiers for everything so you have more headroom and everything has more seperation electronicly and then you dont need a preamp stage as the zapco does this.
Only1Stefan i have thought about everything, but at this stage of this room all that money would be a waste to spend! Once the room is fully finished and I’m happy with all speakers too, then i’ll into amp upgrade, BUT people would shit themselves if they heard the setup even with these old amps without knowing what they are.
@@pssound9749 im sure they would alot of people concentrate to much on what equipment they have than acctualy using what they have and setting it up to get the best out of it like room treatment and dsp the first making a big difference but you already know that ;-)
Next on Pssound......dolphins with frickin lasers on their heads above the OB...xD
you should be able to reach lower with a OB, it just takes a bit more power to compensate fr the roll off :) still wondering why you would ahve all these toffees in the back :)
there is a thing closing them to "closed" does not work like that unless you use the volume they need to reach low. im pretty sure this huge woofers in a closed box need MUCH more then this tiny enclosure. so. yeah its not at all a comparison. you will lose allot of power in the OB for compensating. but yeah 2 x 12 inches with huge Xmax is more then enough in a normal room. so thats not a problem.
joppe peelen check out the channel and then you’ll see what i do! 😃
@@pssound9749 ua-cam.com/video/iPjISoT7uKo/v-deo.html says i sealed them up. that means it has by far not enough liters to perform as a closed box.
aah i think you mean , the troffee thing :) yeah i guess something with cars and SPL :) anyways it might be a dutch thing. i would not put them in view since you will be asked about them non stop, and unlike you go hard on that :) leave them standing there :) nice OB mains by the way !
the measuring technique. is well known. use gating else its not valid. doing 5 and then take an average still is not correct. better for sure :) just not complete :) in a car that seems indeed impossible :(
If you sealed the outer chambers would it change the output it would be like a 4th order enclosure?
eric dudley i did seal the outer chambers in the video. Did you miss that? 🤷🏻♂️😃
eric dudley otherwise it would be just 2 sealed boxes turned together. Until that rear chamber is not enclosed and tuned, it can not be bandpass.
Couple of questions, do both subs fire in phase with each other and at what point does a design like that become considered isobaric? Or does none of that matter in an open baffle environment ?
Colby Dolby it’s not isobaric ever unless you put them out of phase with each other and sealed the centre chamber up (even then you’d want the centre chamber as small as possible to acoustically couple the two drivers), they are played in phase with each other in this design and the front of the side chambers and the rear of the centre chamber are all open 👍🏼
Thanks for the reply, so I'm wondering how close can two subs be firing directly at each other or technically what would be a safe distance between each other without causing some crazy issues ? I'm building an underseat subwoofer box in a pickup truck and the tolerances are tight. Been wondering if I can fire the subs directly at each other ,maximum distance 6 to 8 inches.
Hello, can you share the blueprint for building your subwoofer?
Hey Peter how can I get one of those PS Sound tshirts?
Brian Miles haha very well, but so far it’s just for clients. I may need different versions for merchandise.
How to calculate what low bass my room can Support’s
Example if my room supports 30 and if I get a bass box that technically supports 20 will I get 20 in room or I will not
I have two AE IB15Ht in an open baffle but I am considering upgrading to AE dipole 15s. What's your thoughts and why did you go with IB15s?
Mark Bushinski i had those AEs from my previous car install, so they were available. They will be swapped to Dipole and we’ll see the difference! 😉
@@pssound9749 Wow that would be awesome! I'd like to see which one can hit more spl before harmonic distortion is 5% (-25 db). I have found the ib15s to be great in many songs but a little sluggish at times. Maybe mms is too high for upper bass?
could u have got same measurements by designing a passive crossover?
Anything can be done, but designing passives, especially for subs is a nightmare and it wouldn’t give a better result than running active with a DSP.
Can you do the same type of box for a car audio , I m talking about the sub box
eduardo batista this is not a box.
I meant that structure in that configuration, if it works in a larger room ,it should function in a car, isnt that the purpose of your demonstration to show that it has some type of efficacy
eduardo batista it’s in a large room, where long wavelength has a chance to work, while in a car room boundaries are way way closer. I don’t want to say anything for your question as it has never been tested, but i don’t even see a point, unless you can separate front and rear wave in the trunk, like trunk IB.
Having said that, you’re more than welcome to test is, just let us know! 😃
Interesting video and I'm surprised these subs can go as low as 30 Hz. But the comparison with the barely sealed subs only proves that the sealed configuration is more efficient (and it's far from being sealed...). Your justification on the possible advantages is purely subjective, "attack" and "decay" are in the bode plot of the frequency response with the phase. The "decay" here is mainly driven by the acoustics of the room, that seems poorly treated (no low frequency absorber). By looking at the high excursion of the driver, it should be good to present the distortion measurement of the setup at high level ~100 dB, it's probably way higher than the typical recommended 1%...
Etilocal 100%, it wasn’t a test to show every single element of the measurements, it was just based on the fact that people were saying that this structure wouldn’t produce bass compared to a box. You can argue about my quick test whether it was 100% sealed or not, it will probably not got settled until i glue a plate on it, but I wouldn’t worry about it for now.
Room is untreated...of course it is! Check out the playlist of this project and see what the plan is! It will be treated step by step.
My opinion is as subjective as anyone else’s who make reviews of speakers without any measurements. Nobody has to take it seriously without knowing me and what my reference and background is. Having said that, i fully agree, that once measurements are taken, they should go into full details then and when i can justify the time spent on that including building, testing, video shooting and editing, then i’ll do that too. At the moment I definitely struggle to find time for everything, hopefully i can improve on that too.
I wonder how it sounds?! 🤪
Mo Majid you’ll hear it one day...hopefully soon! 😂
would the box design work in a jeep warngler?
Darren Chance hell NO! It’s not a box.
@@pssound9749 how can I get the same characteristic with 2 18" sub in a jeep wrangler?
Darren Chance if I remember correctly, that car doesn’t have a solid roof, right?
When you do IB, the car is the box, so it has to be solid.
I think in your case only a box solution is possible and if you want “IB-like” performance, then you need much cone area and subs that can drop low and play well in sealed enclosure. Cross them low, give them lots of clean power and then it can be close to IB life.
@@pssound9749 my jeep comes in a hard and soft top. i have the hard top and thought that design would work well in the jeep
Darren Chance it won’t work as the front and the rear of this structure is open, you’ll get massive cancellations in such small space. If you could do trunk IB, then it could work, but you don’t even have a sealed trunk, do you?
Did you try put it in a corner with rew adjustment?
Jacob Berg you never want to put a solution like this in the corner, it’s not a box.
@@pssound9749 okej, what happens to the respons if you do?
Jacob Berg big cancellation!
@@pssound9749 Does this type of "box" intergrates with L and R speakers better then a typical ported or sealed enclosure?
Jacob Berg due to the fact that L&R speakers are open baffle, this solution delivers similar characteristics.
are those w15gti?
Yes.
I don’t have a single trophy.
Ia there a very special 11 year old boy in the house? I mean...adults don't have trophy shelves like that
Unless you’re still competing as an adult with great results and you don’t want to drop your trophies away.
Many successful shops have similar displays too, what i see no problems with as then i have extra assurance that they know their stuff! 💪👍🔊🔊
i am not a hater, but peter should become more humble
What made you feel that way? Is it maybe that i’m too straight to the point at times?
hey buddy
i have no clue why you're calling your sub an open baffle ,it is not
this is a classic triple chamber bandpass sub
and the response curve is typical of this type of topology
cheers
It’s nowhere close to bandpass where the opening is larger than the cone area, hence they are open.