The REAL Reason Why Open Baffle Sounds Better Than Box Speakers
Вставка
- Опубліковано 10 лис 2023
- READ ME!
My opinion, after thinking on it long and hard and listening to my own open baffle speakers for 2 years is that the main difference is the midrange presentation.
The open mid projects the sound back out of phase with the front output and reflects off the wall behind the speaker. It then combines (largely in phase) with the front output and changes what you'd get from the front firing driver.
So, in a boxed speaker you only get that front firing sound, while the dipole gives you that PLUS the reflected back firing output as well. That changes the character of the sound and gives open baffle its distinctive sound quality.
Is is perfectly accurate? No, obviously not, but that really doesn't matter. You either like it or you don't, and that's what's important.
Now I will say that unless you've actually tried listening to a well designed pair of open baffle speakers, you can't have an opinion either way. I think most who do start listening to OB don't go back to boxed speakers. At least not willingly - maybe their situation changed and they need to listen in closer quarters where the speakers must be too close to the front wall to realize the benefits of OB.
I used the term ethereal to describe the sound difference because it's the word that came to mind, but maybe a better way to describe the OB is to say more expansive. As in it projects a bigger sonic presentation, but retains pinpoint imaging and immersive soundstage.
In my latest OB design: • Would YOU Buy These Sp...
I focused on the midrange driver with these conclusions in mind. The bass is omnidirectional for all speaker types, and the tweeter doesn't carry enough of the music spectrum (there's very little content above 10KHz in most music) to warrant making it rear firing as well. Whereas the mid carries the bulk of what serious listeners are looking for in a refined and engaging listening experience. My design lets the high efficiency mid play a wide range of the audio spectrum and is run through a 1st order bandpass filter to extend that coverage down into the low midrange and up into the treble.
You can help support the work I do in making these videos:
Project plans for sale: ibuildit.ca/plans/
Join the ibuildit community on Loacals: ibuildit.locals.com
Support this channel on Patreon:
www.patreon.com/user?u=865843...
#diyspeakers
#johnheisz
#audio
My "Scrap bin" channel:
/ ibuilditscrapbin
My main channel:
/ jpheisz
Website: ibuildit.ca/
Facebook: / i-build-it-25804801424...
Instagram: / i_build_it.ca - Навчання та стиль
READ ME!
My opinion, after thinking on it long and hard and listening to my own open baffle speakers for 2 years is that the main difference is the midrange presentation.
The open mid projects the sound back out of phase with the front output and reflects off the wall behind the speaker. It then combines (largely in phase) with the front output and changes what you'd get from the front firing driver.
So, in a boxed speaker you only get that front firing sound, while the dipole gives you that PLUS the reflected back firing output as well. That changes the character of the sound and gives open baffle its distinctive sound quality.
Is is perfectly accurate? No, obviously not, but that really doesn't matter. You either like it or you don't, and that's what's important.
Now I will say that unless you've actually tried listening to a well designed pair of open baffle speakers, you can't have an opinion either way. I think most who do start listening to OB don't go back to boxed speakers. At least not willingly - maybe their situation changed and they need to listen in closer quarters where the speakers must be too close to the front wall to realize the benefits of OB.
I used the term ethereal to describe the sound difference because it's the word that came to mind, but maybe a better way to describe the OB is to say more expansive. As in it projects a bigger sonic presentation, but retains pinpoint imaging and immersive soundstage.
In my latest OB design: ua-cam.com/video/PuQhntQwjpM/v-deo.html
I focused on the midrange driver with these conclusions in mind. The bass is omnidirectional for all speaker types, and the tweeter doesn't carry enough of the music spectrum (there's very little content above 10KHz in most music) to warrant making it rear firing as well. Whereas the mid carries the bulk of what serious listeners are looking for in a refined and engaging listening experience. My design lets the high efficiency mid play a wide range of the audio spectrum and is run through a 1st order bandpass filter to extend that coverage down into the low midrange and up into the treble.
Agreed, I had an ancient Maranz with a "mid" range tone control that sounded magical.
I own Magnepans and a few Klipsch speakers at home. IMO, the open baffles interact less with the room which brings less smearing early reflections especially apparent in the midrange. Reflections that arrive later add ambiance to the sound. Horn speakers are very directional, also reducing early reflections at the cost of polar response. Late reflections of horn speakers do not contain as much midrange and treble like an open baffle. Much of what people call boxy sound is cabinet resonance and/or early reflections of sound inside the cabinet re-resonating through the speaker cones.
Like some other comments say, live acoustic instruments emit waves in all directions and will usually bounce off back walls. Your best bet at getting a live-stage-like experience is with open baffles at roughly the same distance from the back wall than a band playing acoustic would be in roughly the same room.
Reminds me of those large electrostatic panels (Quad ESL-57), which were open baffle and god forbid you placed them too close to a wall.
@@hgwaterous You are right that horns are very directional, and since human hearing is said to be very sensitive in the 2k-5k hertz range, pointing a mid-range horn ( squawker) toward the listener is not a good idea. ( Note that most horn instruments direct the sound up or down ( and a mute is sometimes used on trumpets). Over the past couple of years, we have been building
speakers which use mid-range horns that are directed up and down , aligned on axis with open baffle woofers. Recently we have been conducting response testing of these designs, and find that they compare favorably with highly-regarded models of conventional dynamic speakers as as displayed in frequency, distortion, and waterfall plots. There is no question that they have a more "live " sound; but these tests also prove that the old notions that horn speakers are plagued with inaccuracies may be attributed to measurements of on axis peaks, that are not so extreme in the averaged room response. Horns used "omni-directionally" disperse/ couple sound with the listening room in ways similar to dipoles. The observations about speaker response and frequency response ranges that John explained in this video, are essential guidelines in building better speakers. The factors of direction and "saturation" of the upper ( 400 hz - 20k hz ) frequencies play a bigger role in our perception of sound than has been properly addressed by conventional box speakers.
What you say about open baffle and audio in general fits with my experience and everything I have seen in audio. Reproduced audio doesn't really sound like the real thing, though it might somewhat approach it. It's just that our ears and brains are so good, they can interpret and correlate what comes out of an audio system to make sense of it. Some versions of this, some people find pleasing. That's basically all there is to it.
“Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”
― Henry Thomas Buckle
Thanks for the di-pole discussion. It reminded me of the properties of a bi-directional mic, and gave me a better way of thinking about open baffle speakers
Cool info! Back in college, I was planning to build an open baffle speaker I read about in Speaker Builder magazine. I bought two Realistic speakers and cut out the cones... then glued plastic soda bottle caps to drive a large Mylar baffles. The top of the baffle had Seas midranges (with the clear blue dust caps) and the design called for front and rear firing 3/4" dome tweeters. Unfortunately, I never got around to building the crossovers.
I really enjoy a large soundstage and good imaging. For me, my OB speakers excel even in a small room.
My small ones on the sides are close to the wall and still sound really good.
Make a good TL design. Now!
@@Coneman3 Transmission Line? I've built those and liked them a lot too. I built small ones, using a 4" midwoofer. With the TL it produced respectable bass along with a beautiful midrange.
I've got a set of mirage om12's, listening to you explain how the sound is more full I can relate, the sound is beautiful compared to a normal boxed speaker
John great job. I would be very interested in your design not sure I need you to manufacture the speakers but maybe sell them as a kit with baffle or without. Will your design work very well if placed 16" from a back wall?
Could you do a video on omnidirectional speakers? I heard a Walsh Ohm recently and it was amazing. I'd like to know whether there's a big difference with the dipoles. Another question - instruments and vocals vary a lot in terms of omnidirectional vs directional. Strings are omnidirectional, but brass instruments are more unidirectional. How well do different speaker types reproduce these sounds?
Hmm, I'll have to try a few open baffle design speakers myself then, because by what you're describing, it sounds like I would really like their sound presentation especially with already "ethereal" sounding music like a band called "Hooverphonic", of which I absolutely LOVE, and their first two albums especially would probably be absolutely spine tinglingly awesome on good open baffle speakers! (Their albums "A New Stereophonic Sound Spectacular" and "Blue Wonder Power Milk")
Thank you very much for the info. How about an audio system with 4 speakers. The ones behind or placed sideways. Should they be closed box?
This is a great breakdown. Thanks John!
Thanks :)
My bedroom has a large walk-in closet, and on the other side of the closet is my listening room. So I just mounted the drivers on the wall of the closet. Is this setup a box speaker or an open baffle speaker? They do sound very good though.
Getting the reflection from the back wall and mixing it up with the sound wave from the front is tricky. On certain frequencies, the waves cancel and that depends on the distance how far the speakers are from the back wall. The further away, the less the cancelation since the energy of waves reduces with the square of the distance. So the closer the listener is to the speakers, the less the cancelation.
Hi John,
I am intrigued by your theory that the "open baffle magic" can be attributed to the backfiring midrange driver.
Now, I just ordered a set of full range drivers for an open baffle setup, but I wonder if I am going to miss out on the magic. I mean, I suppose that only the woofer section of the full range will be backfiring, or are all the constituent frequencies coming through at the back?
With regards to the elusive combination of transparency and imaging, have you heard any large-woofer Tannoy dual concentric speakers? If so, how do they compare in your estimation to open-baffle?
Kind of reminds me of a time in the 1960’s where speakers were fitted into solid walls to provide an infinite baffle. The only sound was that created by the front of the speaker cone and the wall was open at the rear so there was no restriction at the rear of the speaker. In theory the perfect set up. The reality was that the lack of any rear reflection made the systems sound flat and uninteresting. Sound needs to be tailored to a room and personal preferences and a technically inferior system can sound absolutely great when properly set up, compared to a top spec system that is just dumped up against a wall.
John, how do you handle phase issues in a three way, open baffle speaker? That is, the physical distance placement between the drivers on the baffle itself? I assume the phase issues occur mostly at the crossover regions. Thanks...
When a musical instrument is being played in a room, you hear the sound from the instrument as well as the sound of the instrument bouncing off the back wall. An open baffle midrange does basically the same thing.
But the recording of a musical instrument is NOT a music instrument, it is a captured sound field, which, in a studio recording, with close microphone, has no resemblance to what you hear in a performance, so you can't possibly expect that recording to produce a sound that doesn't exist.
Just my humble opinion...
🐻❄️
except with drums, the box simulates the same thing a drum does, but open baffle does not.
wanna bet?@@lohikarhu734
If the sound of the instrument bouncing off the wall behind it in the studio or venue is in the recording then that reflection also comes out of the front baffle drivers in a box speaker. Timing of the reflection is still intact because the reflection is delayed before it reaches the microphone.
Open baffle speakers, like true dipole speakers such as magnaplaners, create a more open, ethereal, more diffuse sound field due to its rear reflections however at the cost of some focus and spatial accuracy.
@@sean_heisler focus and spacial accuracy is often where realism is lost with specific content. Most ON users are usually narrow with the spectrum of content they listen do and don't always realize what is missing as well
Just digesting your description and I am imagining a skeletonised cabinet. Would this find a mid ground of the two deciples while being able to mitigate the sound field you desire. I enjoy the open but a tight acurate base with no port is nice.
Hi John, I would buy your plans for your open baffle speakers. I have owned Magnepan.7i,1.7i,and now have LRS, which I am selling because I never listen to them because of the Klipsch La Scala’s in the room. I am a wood builder as opposed to being a wood worker. To me a wood worker is someone who loves to work with wood, a wood builder, like myself, builds cabinets, boxes, doors, ect. because of the economics and enjoyment of DIY but not obsessed in perfection. Any way, I enjoy your channel and I would buy the plans. I think a cone driver is more effective than a panel in moving air!
I had an open baffle build with Lii W15's and F15's. The effect you described was 100% present in my golden ratio room with dirac room correction and minimal room treatment. It's wild to experience open baffle for the first time. It won't be for everyone, but it definitely works for me.
Great video, John! Thanks. I had a conversation thru email with Jerry McNutt at Eminence a few years back. I was wanting to redesign my center channel and he suggested moving to open baffle speakers. He implied that some Eminence drivers were excellent for that idea but didn't go into specifics.
Also, you mentioned that your mids sounded fuller or more real. You had trouble describing the sound, for which I don't blame you. My dad often worked sound in large theaters in the 60s and commented that the Altec speakers did not provide a *loud* sound but a *large* sound. Perhaps that helps you in your thinking about the mids.
About 20 years ago, the late Bill Woods once told me to add 2 feet of baffle to either side of my Altec Valencia boxes. I never did but he was "sort of" toying with an open baffle concept. He was so far ahead of his time in many ways. Sad that he's gone. Anyway, thanks again!!
I have what I consider a great DIY setup using open Baffles in a bi-amp configuration. Last week one of my friends who loves music, but is not interested in good audio equipment listened for two hours. Between tracks, he was giving me his critique of the sound. He said it really sounds good, but I’m not hearing any stereo separation coming from the speakers. It’s all behind them and in the center. He didn’t even realize that he just gave me a great compliment 😂
Yes I had the same happen to me a friend of mine came to the house and said hey you moved your speakers
I said yes they sound better here like this I said sit down
He played a couple songs and said hey how come the music is in-between the speakers 😂
I told him that's the way it's supposed to be 😂😂
Hi , I have a question about what is important for a quality amplifier, or other audio components, as I am working on a type A amplifier and I would like to assemble it as cheaply as possible.
I can get that depth image with my boxed speakers as long as they have the perfect distance to the front wall. Its a slim speaker with round corners so the midrange wraps around the box pretty easily. It one of the best drivers out there from SB so it plays flat in the entire midrange. If the echo is tonality wise unlike the direct sound the sense of depth becomes worse. I see some high end drivers have small magnets and that will propably reduce the diffraction effect on the midrange on the rear wave so its more similar to the front wave. I havent tested those but the physics is solid atleast.
I agree on the boxiness comment, some boxiness can be heard on larger or poorly braces speakers but the main difference I hear is that you are listening to both sides of the driver in open baffle
How does it compared with magnepan, it seems no one really compare the two open baffle vs magnepan. Same dipole sound.
So, what do room treatments like quadratic diffusers if placed on the wall behind the speakers?
biggest revelation for me was dropping the cross over and pulling that into the pre amp digital space. (I used hypex plate amps to do this) The control the woofers have after this upgrade takes things to the next level.
Thanks for sharing, I see you are the best ever in audio skills and thoughts.Someone can say but can’t do and vice versa but you are excellent in both.I really admire your demonstrations , observations and conclusions.Please keep trying but also keep yourself healthy cuz I hear your heavy breathing I always hope you in good condition.
In order to comment this video I have my following humble opinion:
For full range driver open baffle is the worst compromise while trying to cancel the bass you need a cabinet for another woofer to have bass.Why? Is my question to myself years ago.
Almost if not say all speakers cabinets on audio market do the same similar task: amplify the front incoming while trying to damp and dissipate backwards out off phase waves.It comes to the results that the signal especially precious bass waves are faint and week and mostly loudspeakers makers add more than one woofer, we even saw 4 woofers and if the bass still week they add passive radiators.So in my thoughts we need to think about cabinet construction design that have to go to build a loudspeakers cabinets as musical instruments where the vibration point is the driver and there must be a chamber of resonance like in guitar, violin or piano…(Part1 will add more opinion)
Part2.Why open baffled speakers is a big compromise solution for full range- Cuz full range driver already have full frequencies from 15hz to 20khz ready to emit;the open baffled got no bass cuz of phase cancelation and this type always need another woofer and must use a crossover for it. The 1st driver on earth is full range but seem there is no perfect solution; they’re used in tube radio with holed carton back and sound poorly with little bass, see at its construction you recognize that is open baffled,that why they come to multiway speakers and crossover is the must for frequencies direction.The positive is strong bass but the loss is audio quality especially the coherence that is the full range signature.So the task is how to build a cabinet that can reap the bass from it.There are TL, Voigt pipes to earn quarter wave length some models in audio
market aren’t that matured, sound week and lagging bass and they can’t play hi-dynamic music.Analyse those types of cabinet I see long tortuous canal with various types of damping or let naked surface, barely one has a chamber for resonance before let the waves out toward directly to the audience ears creates additional SPL to the driver SPL,That is why cabinet with chamber of resonance and proper surface treated and damped will give strong mature natural low bass .The one I saw that has chamber of resonance and front open port are Altec A5-A7 ( vintage cabinets 828-825 ; THE VOICE OF THEATER) they sound in another level to the rest the audio world and I astoundingly recognized that they sound even better than new Altec for home loudspeakers.
I took a chance on the Lii Audio 15 inch full range. Now that I have it in a 1.5 inch Baltic Birch baffle, oh my. Open baffle is open, I get a completely open soundstage, where the music is placed so well. This is what I have been looking for for a few years. Open baffle is really nice.😄
How do you deal with the 180 degree phase shift in the bass range? When I used a dipole subwoofer, I went into the kitchen with the door open and the sound there was just awful.
My most pleasant speaker is the Dahlquist DQ-10. Kind of an open or minimal baffle speaker. It does sound spacious to me. Out of the 5 drivers in each speaker, only the mid bass / mid range actually has openings to the rear. Still the small baffles for the drivers must be part of the reason for the sound quality I’m hearing. I’d be interested in your ideas about the difference in a DQ10 and other open baffles like you are designing.
We look forward to your new project performance video.
John, more than halfway into the video, you're reminding me of Bose 901s, not accurate but ethereal provided you use the EQ and an amp that can withstand sustained 15db to 25db EQ boost in treble and presence.
Hi John, I have new bookshelf speakers located in a new position in my listening room. The room is carpeted but untreated however, wall & ceiling cavities are filled with fiberglass insulation. It took much experimentation, using acoustic bass recordings, to position the speakers to eliminate several bass room modes. I then added a subwoofer between the speakers & dialed it in, it sounds good. My problem is the sitting position doesn't offer the best sound available in the room & I don't really have an easy way of changing it. The best sound occurs further away from the speakers & standing up! My point is ideally both speaker & listening positions need to be optimized for best sound.
this is a room, where open baffles can change a lot. Using them for bass reproduction, the room modes will not be triggered as much as with direct radiating speakers - vented included. This will occur even in the mids. Give it a try and you will find the sitting position is not as critical to be found like before.
Is this "ethereal" effect what people describe as "room information" like what you might get from fill speakers? It seems like if you were reflecting off a hard front wall you would still have cone filtering -- it would be as if you had another set of speakers set farther back. I wonder if having a diffusor on the front wall is required to not get the cancelations?
I made open baffle 15's because of your videos. They are amazing, especially with a low watt amp and sub woofer. Now I am not taking your advice and making a pair of 8 in transmission lines speakers with 3 speakers to swap out a test. Building the box off the longest necessary line and will add fill for the shorter lines as needed. I want to a 3 way open baffle but I don't have the tech know how to make the cross over so I will have to wait for yours.
There's many other ways of doing a 3 way without a traditional crossover. Especially if the bottom end is a subwoofer with built in amp. For instance a sub, an extended range mid, and a tweeter that only needs a cap for a crossover. I have a setup like that, although not in use ATM.
And there's of course fully active. With DSP. And even better. There's quite a few companies that sell 3 channel speaker amps with built in DSP for this exact purpose.
There's pro audio DSP stuff that's cheaper than audiophile gear that will do the crossovers. They're DSP's basically, but they have different names.
And there's of course old fashioned style analog crossovers. Both HiFi, and Pro Audio. But that can get really expensive. The easiest, and best bang for buck is the 3 way speaker amp.
Minidsp has stuff like this. And Hypex. And I think Dayton Audio makes one too. Check out Parts Express. Madisound. And the Minidsp website to start. ✌️
Thanks for this info. I like to build speaker set ups that people have tested and tuned. It would be fun to get the software and try and learn myself. I use a traditional subwoofer so a simple cap crossover sounds doable. @@amb3cog
What are the similarities in this and a bipolar floor standing speaker, for example. Not talking about a single driver that has the rear half exposed, but an additional dedicated speaker for that direction. I owned some Definitive Technology BP-8 speakers back in the dark ages and they had rear firing speakers as well as the front ones. Would those have some of the characteristics of the open baffle and the enclosed/box? I realize you called these
Along with your points, I'll add that use, room placement and acoustics play into the sound quality as well, as if you or anyone reading this really needs that pointed out! My point being... you have to consider the whole package and not just the speaker's fundamental design.
I'm budget conscious, so I went with mid-priced large bookshelf speakers for my system, front and rear channels (enclosed, ported). You can hear a huge difference in sound placing them into a corner vs. out in the open (away from a corner or wall). I may try my hand at creating my own center channel open baffle design, as I think it may lend itself to placement and use under my TV with (hopefully) better midrange performance. I have a couple older bookshelf speakers that may be parted out for this new speaker.
Thanks for sharing.
I would definitely be interested in buying a Kit if that's would be for sale.
Check out GR research for great speaker kits. I built their open baffle hybrid X-Static speakers and can't get over how much better they sound.
I used to have Bose 901s. Trapezoidal, point to back, four drivers on each back plane and one in front. Lots of similar theories are used in OB, such as external tuning:
901s were designed so their rear point is 18” in front of the wall. If you build OB you should fiddle with angles and distances, along with wall shapes: a corner or shallow convex “v” might be fun.
Bose said that multiple speakers can’t resonate at the same frequency. I don’t know how much of that is physics and how much is engineering.
I like the ring-of-midranges look. Perhaps add a short tube to the back of each driver and put two speakers back to back. Six double-coned speakers will ease and broaden. Twin baffles allow for great off axis listening.
All together, you’ll have all sorts of levers to adjust to get the sound right.
I would keep the subwoofer separate. The above setup will lower the optimal crossover frequency.
The baffle can be circular, but scalloping can direct and adjust response while giving the speaker a more flower-like look.
Thumbs up
I was able to buy magnepans and it’s amazing. It’s hard to think about going horn or box again
Will .... mostly be in phase ... sure. Happy combing. With even more from your front wall. I can already see a very predictable pattern of multiples from your wall distance that will be hard to treat. Free field - why not. Had Magnepans (dipole magnetostats) and my room annoyed me always extremely with these. But I get your point of locating things in the mix. I imagine that could have more to to with the reduction of group delay, introduced by vented enclosures/Helmholzes and or the lack of low end, that for me comes with perceived better location. Would love to see some measurements of yours. Would assume, dipoles give dryer impulse responses (less exitement of the "box/frame" that rings around) and count that as a pro argument.
After building a couple open baffles I won’t go back to regular speakers unless it’s required, like rear surrounds for home theater. You just can’t get the imaging from box speakers for the same price and simplicity.
I'm understanding what you are saying about the open speaker effect is somewhat like the unique sound of a pair of vintage Bose 301 speakers.
Q. John, have you considered offering a "Premium" set of plans, that -- in addition to having a components list -- would come with a thin CNC machined template?
Anyone who has a jigsaw and a router, (with a pattern bit), could then create a perfect copy from whatever material they choose to use for the fronts...
Being a bit skeptical about the OB speakers I found a system that changed all that. If your looking for good samples and want to hear the difference check the samples from Qualio Audio. They have now 2 models. There latest model is intended for smaller rooms. Less bass output I thought. Which they realised. But now they have the midrange also boxed and the magic is gone. I’m now looking for a DIY OB system that comes close to this and is more affordable.
Tried Open Baffle Subwoofer on a whim. Had a couple subwoofer drivers from an Infinity system. Put them in a couple small open back boxes. Not expecting much was shocked by the difference from my large sealed box subwoofer. Actual bass notes could be heard instead of a mostly chest thumping monotone boom-boom-boom. Next built a Ripole subwoofer. Surprised again by how much more bass tone and texture is revealed. Never go back to a sealed sub.
Considered trying to build my own open baffle speakers, but your design is definitely of interest. Suspect hearing open baffle full range speakers would ruin me.
This is my first time hearing about a ripole sub. Those things look awesome! what woofer did you use for yours?
Man you think the way I do I would like to talk to you about the horn subwoofer,woofers boxes I built and other boxes I built. I really would like to know what you think? Only if you have free time
You are correct that "bass" frequencies, in this case below 100 hz, are "omnidirectional", sort of, in that the listener cannot pinpoint the direction of the sound below 100 hz... Of course, most bass drivers on speakers play above 100 hz, even in a 3 way design... And all the sound coming from the back of the speaker reflecting off the front wall may be in phase but it will not be time aligned so there may be some cancellation that would be dependent on the distance from the front wall... I believe the experience of open baffle was essentially used on Bose 901's, back in the day...
I have Magnepan .7’s with a pair of REL T/7x subwoofers and a Sublime Acoustic K231 active crossover in a 2-way setup. What advantages would open baffle speakers bring to my setup?
Dynamics
Your thoughts made me think that I could just attach the fullrange driver to the wall. And then the whole wall would be a huge acoustic screen for the driver. That's very interesting. What do you think about that?
I build open FR driver speakers with a boxed bass reflex woofer. The woofer is on the bottom panel, firing onto the floor witch acts as a bass horn. The bass vent is on top of the enclosure with a ring bass vent around the open 5" FR driver (a coaxial bass vent idea). 😅 I'm hooked on point source treble&med as my #1 priority! And to have the woofer with a vague source, and not heard directly. So my 5" open driver on top is dipole and sounds how you described open baffle sound (and I wood never go back). 😅 With a mod on the 5" drivers you don't need a crossover filter if you want to be pure. And just run it straight and still handles a bit of power, but I chose the filter cos I like to boost the top end with a 2 mf cap and 100 mf for more power handling (and a few other parts on the filter). I thought of having two bindng posts on my speakers (f I want to sell them) one being straight through. And a large inductor on the woofer. The woofer warms the med range up for EQ. To get the EQ on my open 5" drivers, I tampered with them. 😅 I made slits (right through) near the center on the cone all around (with small gaps that are not cut). One layer, 3mm out and another layer 1 cm out. 😅 For the best treble in the world! And better than any tweeter I had. No internal cavity like with soft domes and dust caps (that tend to make a "sippy" sound with the air trapped inside). Mine have just the main cone, slitted, all open with no "sippy" sound. The mod sounds different in the highs compared to regular FR drivers and tweeters (in a good way). I also simulate an open edge cone by making one layer of very thin crescent 🌙 cut outs around a circle nearly 3"dianeter around the cone (and with small gaps in between that are not cut). Gaps wide enough to keep the cone stiff, you will be surprised how ridged the cone stays! And (with a 100 mf cap) will handle the power well (Jaycar Electronics 5" FR driver, $8.90 AU). I had to remove the dust cap for a totally open cone, by very slighly perforating the cone at the outer edge pf the dust cap with a sharp blade. Then cut as much out of the dust cap I can so you are left with a narrow ring of plastic on the cone. Then very slightly perforate the cone inside the edge of the remainig dust cap. Then cut the thin plastic ring remainig with a very sharp blade without destroying the cone (this is the WORST JOB) and then you can gently pull the cut ring off, starting at one end. Not for the faint hearted, the hardest job of all. And there will be a very shallow groove on the cone, but better than the plastic. Sounds so great on female voice, you can "see" their tonsils! 😂 And so point source and defined, with so much extended treble (on $10 drivers) the sound makes me glad I'm still alive! Yesterday an avid musician who has albums on line (with a full band) visited me and he had a big smile ear-to-ear (he looked exactly like the Cheshire cat) when he heard his music through my speakers. His production was great too! A BIG factor. And he has a great voice! ❤
The only issue I've ever had with OB speakers is the lower power level. It is true that the more efficient it is the less power it needs but I usually end of with distortion.
What kind of measuring equipment (mics, soundcard) and programs (REW, Smart,) do you use to get objective data from the speakers you create?
I've made several videos over the last 3 years showing how I go about that. Just click my name and it'll take you to my channel where you can find them.
@@IBuildIt
Ok thanks!
I have Hypervigilance disorder, So I have to listen to music in a small room. I always wanted Open Baffle Speakers. Do you think in my small music room (closet) of 8'W x 11'L x 7'H will do ok with open baffle speakers? ... Thanks😁
I think OB will work in any room, since the room / speaker combination is always a compromise and never a perfect one.
@@IBuildIt Thanks😁
The best and most accurate speakers I have heard were boxed and ported speakers which were soffit mounted in recording studios.
Of course the recording studio is also practically the only place where you can compare the original sound as produced by the instrument with the recorded sound in (almost) real time.
Thus my favourite speakers are practically all fully active (and appropriately high-passed to avoid excessive cone excursion which increases distortion) boxed and ported.
I have practically never really heard accurate and tight (for want of a better descriptor) deep bass from passive speakers.
a lot of wild assertions here, you're lucky I agree with most of them
I'm about to build my 1st open baffle speaker. (Which brought me here.) I do have a few speakers lying around, so I'm gonna make it test-speakers, first.
I'll use 4 widerange speakers, 8ohms, each. 2 in line and both lines in parallel results in 8ohms, again. with a sensitivity of 94dB each, result will be 98dB for the bunch. A supertweeter with a sensitivity of 92dB will be added, to be switched on an off (single capacitor as crossover) for comparison purposes.
One larger widerange speaker, to be switched in, replacing one of the 4 identical ones.
That should give quite some options to choose from. The identical 2nd speaker will have a wider baffle.
I've tried open baffles, which work well, but mainly for jazz and small bands. If you're listening at relatively high volume, or to music with deep bass, well, it's not as good as it sounds - acoustic short-circuiting happens very quickly!
I have found, that most that go on and on about open baffle speakers, often tend to be able to ignore issues with baffle peaking and cancellation, or pretend baffle peaking is not a real and measurable issue. Many try to over simplify how they are designed and think a flat board with some speakers are all you need. I rarely see actual response measurements taking into account additive "Peaking" and how to address it with a notch filter or rolloff above that frequency.
I suppose a lot do. However, since I made a video several months ago talking about the dipole peak (and dips) that you can get from an open baffle speaker, I wouldn't be one of them.
Also, since I showed the on and off axis measurements for this open baffle design, the smoothness of the response I was able to get can be seen.
Talk about 1: Other people; 2: Events; 3: CONCEPTS
I'd recommend that you use Seas Fa22 for mids which you can go up to 8k before crossing to the tweeter & if your game to tweak the Seas you'll improve its SQ even further & can even skip the tweeter all together
I guess I am one of the intelligent people. I know a lot of people like open baffle but Im like you used to be where I love to build the cabinets. My only question i would have about open baffle it seems like they would need a lot bigger drivers and more power to get the same SPL I think that's why people use a lot of professional high efficiency drivers. I know it's probably the way to go it makes sense I thought about how it would sound better and I came to the same conclusion as you described. Maybe if I have a big enough listening room I will try one. I was wondering what driver's you like to use?
I remember you were trying big open baffle and adding wings to experiment.
If your theory is correct, then adding an *in phase* mid-range driver on the back of a box speaker should have a similar effect. As a bonus it won't have the acoustic short-circuit of an open baffle, so it'll be more efficient. Essentially a Bose 901 :)
It will also avoid the issues of the back and front wave adding together and creating a huge bump in response, but using 2 drivers requires a different impedance/sensitivity/crossover design.
The problem with any box enclosure is in keeping the enclosed early sound reflections from affecting the driver by causing resonances and distortion. The open box allows for greater dispersion of the sound from the back of the drivers and longer time before reflections. But it is not practical to obtain the lowest bass from open baffle speakers without using powered subwoofers.
Best speakers I have ever heard are the B&W 801 followed by the Mirage M3si and then followed by the Proac 2.5. I listen to orchestral music. If a speaker puts me dead center 15 rows back in Carnegie hall then I have achieved Nirvana. At least for me.
One of the best speakers designers: Wolf von Langa, Nola, Fischer , Clarysis, Audio Consulting,, use OB for mids and boxed bass.
Yes! Room reflections are anti phase!
0:10 Nice array baffle back in the corner. I wonder how that will turn out.
What would you say the minimum room size would be to benefit from open baffle designs?
A late reply but I don't think there is a minimum. I'm listening nearfield and the speakers virtually disappear in the soundstage. It's uncanny how well OB integrate into any room.
Trying to find a neighbor friendly apartment solution@@contemporaryhomeaudio
Close John, very close. The main factor for open baffle is the direct and reflected sound. The direct contributes the lateral localization, the reflected contributes the depth and spaciousness. Most all of the others know nothing but frequency response and nothing about spatial response. The box sound of box speakers is because they have no reflecting output unless they have purposely put some drivers on the back, like the Infinity IRS, some B&Os, the DBX Soundfield One, Definitive Technology, and of course the Bose 901. With sufficient reflected sound output the comments are usually "It sounds like the instruments are right in the room with us," and "It sounds so big."
Keep on thinking!
From my point of view, it doesn't have to do with sound radiating from the rear of the speaker. In fact, that's the drawback of the open baffle. It will always have phase cancellations, which is why a larger panel size is better. The ideal speaker, in my opinion, is the infinite baffle speaker placed in an infinite wall, preventing 100% wave cancellations. I have this setup at home: two full-range speakers embedded in the wall, and the rear sound dissipates into the other room, resulting in spectacular sound. It's better than open baffles because there's minimal wave cancellation. Well, I have other open baffles, and in my view, they sound best in near-field setups, at least a meter away from the wall, with moderate SPL to minimize interaction with the room. Being not in a box eliminates early reflections and resonances. There's no pressure on the speaker to generate bass, and, even worse, with a sealed box, it completely avoids the counterforce the speaker must exert to move air under pressure, resulting in distortion. In open baffle, the speaker operates close to the ideal technical design as it was manufactured, without relying on the constraints of a box. The box exists to simulate an infinite baffle speaker.
I've always thought both omni-directional and open baffle come closer to creating a "live" performance and could increase the soundstage and the "holographic" effect some reviewers talk about.
Comes down to compression. I drill the back of my tweeters out and they no longer have an fs up high around 700htz or whatever. They are 'open baffle' at this point and can play down to 100 htz with no distortion at all; not a lot of db output down there but no distortion. Doing this to the mids will result in the same reduced distortion because there isn't any compression on the driver from the standing air in the box. Treat that front wall and open baffle sounds worlds better for this reason.
I'd love to hear an analysis of why it is that the bass cancellation of an OB setup, when listening from the side of the speaker, reduces with distance from the speaker... it's not consistent with my prior understanding of how sound propagates.
Take as an example a vented box with the port on the back. Even though sound is coming from two distinct sources (port and driver), the total is still omni. Same with the dipole - the farther you get from the speaker, the more omni the bass will be.
I would guess it’s due to room reflections. A dipole in an outdoor open space would likely retain its propagation pattern with distance.
My guess is that it would be much the same outdoors in the absence of reflections (other than the ground).
If you drop two pebbles in a pool of water at the same time, you can better see the effect as the waves ripple out, losing energy, they eventually merge into a nearly circular ripple pattern.
The reason is that the angle that the waves meet each other changes (become more similar) as the wave ripples out. So instead of cancelling each other, they just overlap and merge.
@@IBuildIt the reason I think the ripple analogy doesn’t produce the characteristic figure of 8 pattern you observe with an acoustic dipole is that ripples propagate via transverse rather than longitudinal waves.
It does produce the figure 8 pattern, but only very close to where the pebbles hit the water. And ripple tanks have been used many times to explain visually how sound and light behaves.
But you can test this empirically yourself by taking your open baffle speaker outdoors and playing a 40Hz tone through it while measuring the output all around it.
To my knowledge this Ethereal or Ghostly quality of the speaker is what most consider to be the point source effect, the speaker becomes just furniture seemingly not to be responsible for the noise in the room. Distance to the wall and back equals the phase shift in the reflected signal, this is actually helpful and too small to detract from the overall sound reproductions felt quality.
Hi John
Open baffle can be taken farther as in no xover and full range with super tweeter.
Most who hear full range are shocked
Man, it sounds like you've done a lot of research on the subject, but do you have any sound demos?🤔
I see you don't understand why open baffle sounds as it does - its all about directivity control - open baffle has figure 8 response - it doesn't excite room reflections and everything to the side is well controlled - this massively improves imaging, everything else is secondary.
I don't like OB due to big room requirement - front/back radiation needs space, and lack of bass, first is better solved with horns, bass should be solved with multi-sub setup, as fighting room modes with just 2 speakers that are attached to your mains are nearly impossible.
I've been running massive OB's since 2013 - no going back ever...
The complexities being described here is is why most people just ignore all this stuff and listen to crappy systems.
The open baffles ability to put the singer and the drum kit in the room with you is something that has to be experienced to be believed. I personally have never heard a home sized box speaker (especially ported) that could reproduce a live drum kit as accurately as a proper open baffle setup. Im not saying accurate box speakers don't exist, but they are typically going to take up a much larger footprint and require much more effort to design and build than OB.
I think a box speaker that's omni in the midrange and highs could do a surprisingly good job of sounding like a drum kit. There's a video of a specially made speaker with midrange drivers pointing in all directions, comparing drum sound in a room from that speaker to a standard forward firing only speaker is a night and day difference. I'd provide a link but I can't find it now. edit: here it is ua-cam.com/video/tn69y1f74yc/v-deo.htmlsi=HcfWGGpOkjGuxuZY
@@timlink7817 Yes. the omni-directional midrange is the key to reproducing a sound field. Using midrange horns to better couple the sound is another important part of the equation. We have built over ten prototypes of speakers designed to implement these principles. We plan
to have two models of Discovery Acoustics speakers on the market in February 2024.
@@mitchdowning8188 I'll be watching for those!
@@timlink7817 That's probably true, I admit I've only heard one pair of Omni-directional speakers and that was over 20 years ago. I think they were made by a company called Ohm. I don't remember being overly impressed, but I also didn't have a chance to move them around or try them with different amplification since they weren't mine. Im not close minded on this subject, so I may try to build a set and see if they can compare to OB. I love audio projects and that would be a good excuse to get back out in the shop and play around
That'd be an interesting comparison!
Doesn't the phase of the negative midrange depend on the distance to the front wall? 1, 2, 5, 10 feet away...at every point there's going to be phase issues. Might not be pure cancellations but it could sure sound weird. I'm with you that it's all about listening pleasure. I've always thought it was goofy that people spend so much time and money "perfecting" the fidelity. Even in Atmos rooms, where engineers put hours or days of design into calibrating--that's all calibrated to ONE listening position. Just put the speakers up, turn it up loud, and listen, don't sweat it man! It will sound good!
I totally agree that good box speakers do not sound boxy. And yes, more bass can often be interpreted as a slower sound. Why that doesn't always happen I'm not sure, but it's largely about balance and reverb. Yes, that side cancellation is a godsend in small rooms. It helps to tighten up the midbass and midrange in the time domain, and that's easily measured. No, the bass does not become more omni as you get further away from the dipole sides. The cancellation goes on forever. What you are hearing is bass from other parts of the room bouncing back to fill in. Yes, the midrange going backwards is super helpful. I had absorbers behind my dipole mids for a while, but it's better without them, with a more lively and richer sound. I thought I needed the absorbers because my speakers are pushed in close to the wall, with a big flat screen above them. It's not ideal, but it still sounds better to let the sound bounce back out from behind than to try to absorb it. That's the midrange. It might be better to absorb some of the bass, but my dipoles don't go very low. Diffusion back there might be very good.
Please give me a link to a source to backup your statement that the cancellation goes on forever.
@@IBuildIt I'm thinking it might be hard to find a source explicitly stating this because there's no reason to expect the signal would stop canceling itself as you got further away to the side. The cancelation is caused by your distance to each source that is out of phase. Off to the side of the speaker, the two sources are the front of the cone and the back. No matter how far away you go off to the sides, the distance to each of those sources stays the same to your ears, so it continues to cancel effectively until it's so quiet there's nothing left to hear. It's true, however, that the signal coming off the back of the driver is not identical to the signal from the front of the driver due to variations in the baffle, and the frame, spider, and magnet assemblies on the back. So the cancelation is not perfect, and that imperfection may have interesting effects at a distance.
This is a good tool to play with to visualize what can happen www.falstad.com/ripple/. It has a choice for a dipole source. If you add a wall on one side of the dipole you can see that the cancelation zone gets disrupted and redirected, with the net effect being less sound off to the sides compared to directly ahead, but not total cancelation. If you let the dipole shoot off into empty space you get a really nice cancellation going off indefinitely to the side.
So in other words you are assuming that the cancellation continues forever.
@@IBuildIt Yes, I'm assuming. I can't think of any reason a dipole would turn omni at a certain distance, and I haven't heard anyone say that before. But this wouldn't be the first time if I'm wrong. I do think that the bass bouncing around the room reduces the dipole cancelation effect as you move away from the speaker, so the loss of bass to the sides is less apparent as you move away. The side cancelation is extremely helpful in reducing early buildup of bass resonances in the room, and is one of the biggest advantages of dipoles in home listening environments.
A lot of bad science has made its way into audio and is now widely accepted. The behavior of sound is insanely difficult to grasp and understand and most ways to explain it in simple terms lead to wrong conclusions.
I called you out because you did what I see all the time in audio (and nearly every other topic): you made a definite statement with complete confidence when you had no actual evidence to back it up.
And I could do it here, as well. You once again said that this: "the side cancelation is extremely helpful in reducing early buildup of bass resonances in the room".
That is another example of a "truth" with no basis in hard science.
The side cancellation you get from a dipole in a typical small room does only one thing, and that is it reduces the overall bass output in total. Less bass at the resonance frequencies means less strength in the resonance.
Part of the problem is due to the methods used in large venue sound are bleeding into small room thinking where they won't work. Sound behaves differently in large rooms where there aren't any significant resonance problems, so the tricks they use to shape and control bass output simply do not work in small rooms.
There are always some speakers that perform poorly in test measurements but properly placed in a well designed listening room may excel in a satisfying audio environment. There may be some interesting undefined nuances that defy technical measurements. Sometimes it’s just best to listen to as many speakers as possible and find the one that best seems to provide the optimal listening enjoyment and just relish the moments of fine music.
Doesn't it get annoying to find the acoustics of your room in every piece of music? That has little to do with the sound signal that was mixed in the studio.
I will never go back to conventional box especially for two channel music listening, I've been open baffle since 1994.
Well, the front and rear interact, this sometimes cancels and sometimes adds. Off axis, in an ideal symmetrical dipole, directly off axis always cancels at all frequencies. At low frequency, the front and rear wave also interact but do not always cancel. Where the distance between front and rear equal one half wavelength, they add. Below this, they cancel at the rate of -6 dB/octave. This requires a, "dipole correction" in the crossover. At higher frequencies where wavelength is short relative to baffle dimensions, the front and rear wave interaction diminishes.
Conventional box speakers typically have very non uniform polar response due to their inherently omnidirectional low frequency and directional high frequency. This results in non uniform room interaction with the direct sound. Open baffle inherently has a significantly more uniform polar response and thus a more uniform interaction with the room. This reduces the need for room treatment relative to conventional box speakers.
Open baffle speakers do tend to present a more believable 3-dimensional space than conventional box speakers. At times it can be almost, "ghostly" to hear instruments or voices emanating from empty space behind, above, or beyond the speakers. Some box speakers can do this to a degree but are typically no match for a good open baffle speaker system.
agree 👍
Your Quote is from Eleanore Roosevelt.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.
She may have repeated it, but the original quote comes from Henry Buckle, who died before she was even born.
So May I hear the sound of anyone of these Baffles?
This is also my experience, in my opinion a forward and backfiring the high frequency range ist wrong. Because no played musical instrument has the same sound in the back. Example a Guitarplayer sounds different, or you must have two players, playing in the opposite direction. Other example, a marching band, it has total different sound front- and backwards, no highs or upper mids backwards.
I thought it was audiophile universal law that sealed boxes always produce a higher fidelity sound than ported/open boxes?
boxy is a thing. if you were to imagine a slide lever that goes from a speaker enclosure with no volume but seals the front and rear and expand that through to an appropriate volume. within that range you'd hear "boxy" boxy sounds like a too small enclosure mixed with a air vent drone if ported. which does have delay of a half cycle..
Sub, (ported/sealed) *still doubt
Bass, open baffle
Midd, open baffle
Tweeter, horn
That's my note for future project
Well, that makes sense to me. I also think that open baffle speakers have less energy storage than box speakers....open baffles don't have a resonating box....
Dipole, Cardioid, Narrow Forward Firing, Omni Directional. These are all radiation patterns. You can achieve these patterns with lots of sealed boxes pointing in different directions with delays and phase changes. Take a look at the Beo - 90 for instance. Unfortunately it's like $200,000.00 so most can't experience it in their home. It is great fun to have speakers that can change between these different radiation patterns. I think most people do it with three pairs of speakers, Open baffle, Sealed box with waveguides (narrow) Sealed box with narrow cabinets, small diameter drivers and no wave guides (wide dispersion) . Omni speakers are built by Apple and a few others. The bass from an open baffle isn't "omni directional". It is just a figure 8 pattern. When you are in front or behind it, you hear the bass because you are in the pattern. I'm not sure why you would say it is ever omni directional when you are just standing in the part of the pattern where the bass is audible.
It's a figure 8 pattern to start with, close to the speaker. But as it propagates out it loses that side cancellation as the front and back waves overlap and merge.
The thing to bear in mind is that no music I’m aware of was mixed on open baffle speakers. So you are not hearing what the mastering engineer put down. I don’t think it’s correct to say the reflection from the wall recombines in phase with the direct wavefront. What open baffle definitely does is change the proportion of direct to indirect sound that is on the recording by boosting the later. In my experience this has the effect of moving the listener a few rows further back in the concert hall (for example).
I did for a time mix on open baffle, you’ll never hear it though😂
@@Margarinetaylorgrease cool, did you end up with dry sounding mixes or were you able to learn the translation?
@@merlingarnett3613 I was in an untreated room that I knew well. The mixes translated well but they also were not the only speakers in the room, just the big ones.
I’ll add that, in this untreated room they measured within 5db down to 50hz. No boxed speaker would do that. Dipole bass you seeeeee
mastering engineer if you go that way you need there speaker room chair coffie mug come on thats hmm
there are mastering engineer with in walls with treated room and badly treated its a big soup of set ups.
sir i want apprenticeship how to contsct you