I tried to date Norwegians as gay. I come from central Europe. Sometimes I wonder if Norwegians really want to know someone. They are matching, but almost none responding to hi. Of course I have to write first, but got used to that. Those three whom I met were even nice, but it took a lot of effort from me to keep up conversation alive and make nice atmosphere. And it worked, but cost me a lot. They also expected that I will work on this relation, ask for everything etc. Not a single trace of initiative, emotions, interest, dedication. Nothing. Nothing more than ONS which I honestly hate. Brazilians are far better. Warm people, lot of topics to talk about, easy to make friends with, even if shy they are very open, iterested, dedicated on the same level as I am, without that discrete smell of superiority and contempt coming sometimes from Norwegians. Years ago I thought that southern people are too temperamental for me, Scandinavians are just in point, but you know what? After I treat my depression and anxiety disorder on therapy, I realized that typical Scandinavian attitude is literally opposite to that, what I like in people :) So my advice is therapy + Brazilians :)
As a Swedish guy I have to say that the line between Interested-->Not Interested-->Creep probably appears to be much broader/more obvious for women. But for a guy that line is very very thin. The more attractive/charismatic you are, the more of a "free pass" you get on that scale. Doesn't matter if it's IRL or online. I just wish more women gave compliments in general, most guys I've spoken to haven't received any compliment in years. A woman can just post a picture on the on whatever platform to instantly get a bunch of compliments from men, sure it's far less common out on the street though (and feels more genuine), but it's still something. Personally I think social media has affected women a lot, like Cecilia here is an example of. Constantly seeing women living "freely", doing whatever they want and have fantastic partners that does everything for them. But that's just the picture of social media, outside of the camera they just as boring as everyone else. Completely missing that a relationship is about making a good life together and learning lessons. It's not about fitting into model of an American romance movie or what you see on your instagram feed. It's quite ironic when she speaks about all these things but not once is she asking herself if she is expected to do the same. Equality goes both ways :) That's not even bringing in the biggest factor of them all and that's the ratio of women vs men showing interest. Dating apps give a good indication. If she scrolls for a couple of minutes there will be 50 guys lined up and she has all the time and power in the world to choose which one of them that seems the most interesting (if any). A lot of those guys who are lined up, she might be the only one they matched with in several days. So not only does this man have to win the lottery ticket to match with her, he now has to win a second ticket to win her interest, THEN he is expected to show up as the gentleman that puts her on a pedestal while having no flaws visible. Of course very few people could ever live up to that expectation. It's no wonder people get disappointed or falls into mental health issues. Still have to give some credits to Cecilia though, because she actually asked a few guy friends about the situation, most women (in my experience) don't.
The dating apps do some shady tricks to present the illusion of both abundance and scarcity, esp for men. How do they do that? They create abundance by using bots and dormant accounts because the ratio of men to women is 3:1. This encourages men to swipe right. However, the guy doesn’t make matches which isn’t surprising as a lot of these “women” don’t exist or aren’t available. This is to encourage men to pay for the premium options.
@Ca11mero……100% on 🎯!! It seams that we have fallen into a feminism a la cart. The Disney fantasy cannot be sustained. The real losers are the kids that get caught up in the mess when parents divorce/split.
The people you get Approched by nothing to be jallious of trust me. Most of them are either Toxic, desperate, or just want fun, even manipulate you by being kind talking about wanting a relationship. Also people you dont have the same values with. i stooped dating apps becuse that did not give me any happyniess and i dont like going out. And attention is not the same as finding genuine attention. I have guy friends i try to tell them also the attention is not from someone that would want a comitment. if they are it mostly the most desperate people that dont want to be alone or lack of option take any girl. Lots of people want something from you inclues use you for thier benefits. Also lots of people dont wanna get married is rare to meet someone that think as you do. also some not everyone i noticed are bad at being romantic. doesnt need to be american movies. Boring not a bad thing meaning healthy too. But if you feel as it a friend and not a partner is also sad. when people thinking just thinking about them self. or put you last for exemple. its not people cant her thier life. But feeling as you been wanted and loved is important too.
Even for a popular guy even very handsome. even if they have options some just approch them for looks. ad if he just want fun one thing. But if he is annoyed people just want him for that can be very annoying and harder to find a genuine one. having lots of attention doeesnt mean serious relationship thinking people and people that have a healthy mindset and like you for you. having Attention can damage people too if they just want things for thier benefits.
there are women that doesnt want that. only becus hook up culture is comon doesnt mean every girl is the same. same as not every man is the same. this people that dont like it stay single for a long time instead. and refuse to be a part of it.
also party places is not the best place to meet anyone in any coutry or dating apps. some few might been lucky. but not the case for many people. some people are scared to be lonley and are insecued and give in until they realise many people wont comit.
If you decide you want a relationship with a man based on whether or not the sex was good, you will FAIL. That's like putting the chariot ahead of the horse. The reason why there is such a disconnect in current dating culture is because everyone is confused and no longer understand their place in the mating game. Whether we are aware of it or not, our behaviors have been shaped by thousands of years of mating practices, which are instinctual and subconscious. Men and women are drawn to what appeals to them, respectively. Fundamentally, we still act according to ancient biological and social patterns, even though modern society sends us a plethora of mixed messages. The girl in white is a bit brash, but she doesn't realize this. If I were a man, I would probably not want to date her. It's not because of her appearance, but because of her energy. A man will enjoy the opportunity of easy sex, but they will unlikely commit to women who are aggressive and indiscriminatory. If you make it easy for him to access your body, why should he try so hard to pursue you? He got what he wanted, you got what you wanted, and now you are making it too difficult for him. I am not saying that it's wrong to go for what you want as a woman. I am saying that it's not going to work for everyone, and perhaps there is a better way. I am saying it's logical that in scandinavia men have become so passive. Because the women have become too aggressive and give off such conflicting signals. I am latina and have never been going to bed with a man on a first date. Especially if I like a man, I wait and get to know him well. I respect myself and I respect him. If he wants me, he will show it, and I don't have to do anything special except be nice and make a safe space for him to advance if he wants to. He will know what to do. If a guy only wants easy sex, he will not stick around, and it's totally okay with me, because he's not my type anyway. I resided in Sweden, and for 12 years cohabiting with a Swedish partner, and we share a child. The relationship ended due to his alcoholism and intermittent binges, coupled with his refusal to seek assistance for quitting drinking. It was affecting our family life. I wouldn't prioritize dating another Swede, as they often seem to struggle with open emotional expression, which is why often they feel they need to drink to open up. I'm not entirely opposed to the idea; however, I'm currently interested in someone who isn't Swedish. The person I am with knows I am not an easy lay. We have been friends for some time and genuinely appreciate each other's company. Despite our long acquaintance, I have chosen not to become sexually involved, and he respects me for that. He knows how rare it is nowadays. I am traditional and unapologetic about it. I have no regrets. It works for me. I never slept with a man who dumped me after. In Sweden it's way too easy for men and women to have sex. It becomes meaningless and robotic. It's not special. And that doesn't work for me. I appreciate the gradual development of romance, the chivalry, and the process of getting to know someone on various levels, engaging in activities together that are not centered around sex, and building a friendship. Now residing in the USA, I find that men here can still be romantic. It's crucial, however, to be upfront about what you're seeking from the start and to have the patience to wait for it. Long-term relationships with men who are willing to do things for you are definitely achievable. It's not merely about expecting a man to do things for you; it involves reciprocating those actions, mutual respect, understanding that love has its highs and lows, and recognizing that the need for compromise is essential because a perpetual state of infatuation is unrealistic. Within a committed and loving relationship, sex can be so beautiful, powerful, exciting, mysterious, comforting, and very importantly, healing, but too many people treat it like a mere casual and unconscious mechanical body function.
"If you decide you want a relationship with a man based on whether or not the sex was good, you will FAIL." - nicely put. :) " I am saying it's logical that in scandinavia men have become so passive. Because the women have become too aggressive and give off such conflicting signals." - "Coerced sex/morning after regret" is a crime in Sweden. This is what Julian Assange was accused of.
I believe that since the traditional gender roles have dissolved, there’s been a lot of confusion on both sides-especially regarding what is expected from the other side and from oneself. What makes it even more complicated is that it’s not just dependent on culture or personal preferences; now we also have the internet. The last and perhaps most significant component, which is likely even harder to grasp, is the psychology behind it all. We all know that we subconsciously repeat patterns we learned in childhood. If those weren’t positive, things get difficult, because we often seek out what we’re familiar with. Given that we live in a hedonistic society where everyone primarily thinks of themselves, it’s wise to always ask oneself, "What do I expect, and what do I want to give to the other person?" And the answer doesn’t have to be the same on both sides. It’s just important that both are clear about this so that they can seek it out and clarify upfront whether it’s a match. Each side should be valued, otherwise the relationship is doomed to fail. Slipping into a relationship through sex, if that’s the goal, is probably not an intelligent strategy. One of the biggest mistakes of our generation is likely making sex easily accessible while treating communication as something too intimate. The greatest mistake of our generation is allowing men and women to be turned against each other.
@@alexandervanlohen4229 " Slipping into a relationship through sex, if that’s the goal, is probably not an intelligent strategy" - nicely put. Cecilia seems have a lack of self-awareness. So she's older, no real career path, working in a clothing store, not wife material, and she's hjeaded for a cat lady existence wondering "it's men's fault".
Keep your standards to yourself. We don’t see that as a respect or disrespect of ourselves here. You’re traditional and you still ended up divorced, isn’t traditional, conservative women that vowed she will be there in the sickness and health, supposed to do everything to help her husband and not just leave him? Like I said, keep those standards to yourself if it works for you, which is not
If I knew that the person I am dating sleeps with people on the first date, I'd be thinking that when they are not with me they are on a "first date". In short, I don't think that I could have a relationship with such a person.
It can go, and often has gone and does go, terribly wrong if you take cultural expectations of what men and women are supposed to behave like as signs of how they feel for you romantically. The harsh truth about dating anywhere in the world, Sweden included but not Sweden more than anywhere else, is that you take emotional risks doing so. You can be decieved in what you thought the other party meant with something, what you thought they felt for you, no matter how they expressed themselves, so don't make this about Swedes! I'm a Swede, I've been in happy relationships with other Swedes and with men from other parts pf the world too, and I have also been surrounded by couples in well-functioning relationships and my view of Swedish men is this: they are all different from eachother. Wow, what a surprise! Who would have thought! Of course, as anyone from the Northern hemisphere can probably feel, we need more emotional rest during the darker months of the year, and it IS hard to feel as passionately about anything in January as in July, but that doesn't make us into those flat cartoon people Marina described. Just see how passionate I am about not having my culture misrepresented, eh? Wink wink. I feel after watching this that Swedish men were done especially dirty, so here I come, to their defence! I have wonderful, loving, caring men all around me. These men surprise their partners, tell them how they feel about them, tell them when they have done something well, tell them they look good. They also do their share in the home and even if it has taken most of my lifetime, I can even see my boomer father starting to take responsibility for maintaining his and my mother's common friendships - buying birthday gifts, calling people up spontaneously etc. And just look at how proudly and confidently they show their love for their children, in a way you hardly see outside the Nordic countries! Swedish men as a group have nothing to be ashamed of, nothing they need to change - any specific Swedish man will of course have faults and issues he should work on, just like any specific man or woman in this world.
She wants a traditional man but she is not traditional herself but a femenist? She will "offer" to pay but at the same time doesn't really wanna pay, If he agrees and she pays she will lose attraction. Picking and choosing the good things hahaha. Careful with these women guys.
13:15 Good point. Sondre from Norway also said that his grandma reminded him to "try before you buy". You can hear him on on Dating Beyond Borders Podcast too
That is serious cringe, its like trying to buy the right size of clothing or test driving a new vehicle, good grief that isn't not how human beings work. Relationships are work and effort and if people are too lazy for that its going to fail. It's not all about sex first and then the relationship later, terrible analogy.
@@michelleg7 i could not be in a relationchip if we weren’t compatible sexuel also. Must Scandinavians dossn’t see anything wrong or scandalous in having sex. Its natural.
Cecelia's english is really good. What she seems to be avoiding is the "me too" possibility of being accused and investigated/prosecuted by a girl with morning after regrets (Swedish American with lots of swedish cousins). Julian Assange is an example. 11:40 - "If I want to go out and hook-up" - ok, damaged LT goods. 36:00 - "I'm willing to pay my part..." - ummm, what about paying for everything? He's been paying for both parties for months, and Cecilia's thoughts go as far as "my part"? 42:30 - Nice observation about "getting set in your ways" - OTOH, fairly lack of complete situational awareness about their future. After 35-40 - you are going to be alone (and making excuses). Kept saying "I don't lnow if I want kids" - yes she does, but apparently to openly say that will upset her friends and indicate failure. Best wishes.
No, I am not the type of person to sleep with a stranger. Sex compatability is one thing and saying like get it out of the way first and then try the relationship, absolutely not. Sex can be worked on because you learn what your partner likes and dislikes, you have that conversation. Some people are great at it and some not but it can be improved upon. That is not how a relationship should be built upon just sex, no wonder sweden has such a high divorce rate. They like their safety net there but when it comes to relationships good lord its a disaster there. I was also listening to the model Iman and she says that the things that make a good relationship are absolutely the small things, so if a guy makes an omlete for you that is something that is fantastic and should be praised why not? Do you need to show it on social media no but if you want to then do it. Flowers are nice but that isn't important to me. if he makes me things, does small gestures for me those are the things I appreciate it more than flowers.
I enjoy life. I like nice women. Making things work well is my own responsibility. Without complaining, here are some fragments, not balanced, just a peek into the Swedish male side, to add to the picture you are painting: Quite often, both he and she learned from their mothers that men are bad. Men used to be afraid of rejection, now also of getting destroyed online or in court. Men's romantic or practical gestures very often get immediately criticized for not being good enough. Generous men hear "Do you think you can buy me?" (money is ugly in Sweden) Legally, good men lose their kids and their savings. Nice men respecting modern consent rules come off as unmanly. Men sometimes discover they have started dating a man identifying as a woman. Lots of Swedish men simply get used. I'm just throwing these fragments into the mix. Life is complex, nuanced, and can be viewed from different perspectives. Thanks!
I thought exactly about everything you’ve said in your comment and could not have sympathy for her or Swedish women in general. I had three Swedish roommates when I first moved to the US. They bullied me to the moon and back for not being feminist, cooking and catering for my boyfriend, letting him lead me and buy me gifts. I’ve heard everything from them, that he was trying to buy me, he was using me, he was misogynistic because he ask me to make him dinner, he was abusive and manipulative etc.. Of course your men aren’t masculine, if they do anything remotely masculine or expect femininity out of you, you instantly demonize him.
I am South African and I have a Swedish significant other. We are Gen X and I wonder if this is a generation thing because of the arrival of the internet and social media? Though to be fair, my significant and I did meet online in 2004 on a dating website, but we made sure to meet up in person as soon as possible and while he did display the Swedish stereotype characteristics, I'm a very bold, outspoken, warm, bubbly and compassionate person. He's always been painfully shy, but others have told me that I made him blossom and I also think that it helps that neither of us ever wanted kids (it's very difficult to raise kids in South Africa!). I think it also helps that he lived in other countries before he came to South Africa and because of the line of work that he's in, he's had far more exposure to all kinds of foreigners and foreign cultures than the average Swede back then. And YES, I did have to make the first move when it came to sex, hahahahahaha! But then again, I've always been the type of woman who made the first move if I saw that the guy was shy (they are shy over here in South Africa as well!), so it wasn't anything unusual for me to make the first move to make things happen. This year will be our 20th anniversary and I can honestly say that I could never have ended up with a South African guy. I just never imagined that it would be a Swedish guy, because I never gave the country of Sweden a thought until I met him! 🤣🤣🤣
It's Gen Z and Gen Y issue. Their idea of sex is totally skewed. They will have a high rate of divorce since they can't pair bond. There is a divorce rate of 80% if the female has more than 10 sex partners.
@@simacrulum I personally think that most of this is down to the concept of "Jantelagen" in Sweden. And I'm not dating a Swede. He's my spouse and we celebrated our 20th anniversary earlier this month. We live in South Africa. He's been here for a bit more than twenty two years, so I jokingly call him a South African Swede. 😉😊
Try telling the man how you really feel. I suspect this could be terrifying for Swedish women, (and it is for American ones, too), but it's something that helps men tremendously. If you have to go to the gym but want another date with him, say how you feel about those things: "I really like you and it would make me happy to have another date to see how we get along. I'm really anxious about getting home because I have to get up early and I'll be too tired at work." We're taught to believe that men can't handle our feelings, but good men can. Maybe even admit about the paying thing, "I really like how egalitarian we are here, but honestly, I appreciate it when a man pays because it makes me feel liked and cared for."
I think being that straight is great, because you know very fast if you are on the same page with this person. Also asking questions on dating apps can safe a lot of time and heartbreaks. One of the biggest mistakes of our generation is likely making sex easily accessible while treating communication as something too intimate.
Yes, because you are a man. Maybe it’s because we no longer have the rituals we once did, there’s a lack of father figures, and a feminization of raising men. Step into your strength. God made you physically stronger; you don’t have monthly hormonal fluctuations, and you don’t face harassment on the street, at work, or even at university. That doesn’t mean you can’t be vulnerable or show emotions. Step into your strength, into your power. There are great rituals for men with other men-it might even be better than therapy. Stay away from weak men like Andrew Tate; there’s good guidance out there, not from pathetic, low-minded criminal idiots. That’s not what being a man is about. Being a man means standing in your strength, taking responsibility, being a gentleman, a provider, a family man, and a protector. A woman can only fully be a woman when a man fully steps into his role as a man.
Feminism is strong in sweden, so there are potentially serious consequences if you approcah a woman and she doesn't like you and accuse you of SA. If a guy engages in sex with a woman, and the woman regrets it after a while, he can be convicted of rape, even after a couple of years.
Maybe that’s your fear, but I doubt it. There might be women who misuse their power, but statistics show that men generally do this more often, not women. You've read some nonsense on the internet from people who profit off your insecurity and think that has anything to do with reality. Take a stand, behave like men of the old school, and you will be successful. And that starts in your head. Instead of listening to Andrew Tate, listen to the accounts of men from the post-war period-how they talked about their wives and how they behaved. Then, think about the values you want in a woman, make sure you live those values yourself, and then find the right woman. Be a man and approach her in a nice way. No games, no tactics! Be kind, smile, do her a favor, don’t pressure her-just normal, decent human behavior. And what if she doesn’t like you? Well, you can't force love. Thousands of women don’t get the man they fall in love with, and vice versa. That’s no reason to be aggressive towards the woman or to play the victim. That’s life! Man up! I've read countless comments here from men who are completely in the victim role-what’s wrong with you? Man up!
@@superxorn They are up because of the way they are counted. For example, you know how many marital R-pe Saudi Arabia has? Zero, lol, because they don’t count it at all. The reason why it is up in Sweden is because it is taken seriously and women are encouraged to report it unlike in most countries where they are silenced by R-sts threats, society that will judged them, ask them what were they wearing etc.
@@superxorn They are up because of the way they are counted. For example, you know how many marital R-pe Saudi Arabia has? Zero, lol, because they don’t count it at all. The reason why it is up in Sweden is because it is taken seriously and women are encouraged to report it unlike in most countries where they are silenced by aR-sts threats, society that will judged them, ask them what were they wearing etc.
@@Commentator488 If Saudi Arabia is on one extreme, Sweden is on another. Neither is any good. Sweden is the country where violence in a lesbian relationship is counted as "mens violence against women" Hatred against men is institutionalized.
I think it's something relatively new that happened in society, when I was young and single at the end of the 90s and the beginning of the 00s, I was often out in the pubs in Stockholm, both with a group of friends and alone, and it was completely natural just making small talk with those who happened to be around you, without having any intention of picking someone up, it was just nice to be social, met most of my best friends like that, but now more everyone sticks to their clique, or stares in the cell phone, especially after the pandemic, it's a shame we can't meet and just talk to each other anymore
Hm I don't know I'm 40 and in my 20ies me and my friends did get approached all the time in bars. Even though I got approached all the time I had a very beautiful friend and the degree she got approached was on another level. However, I spent some time in Spain and Brazil and I was approached so much more there. In Sweden basically only in the bars but in Spain and Brazil men could whistle or name calling etc etc. It was always so nice to return to Sweden and feel more invisible.
I'm a Brazilian guy, and my girlfriend is Swedish. We met in Barcelona, when I approached her walking down the streets... She was very surprised and said that this had never happened to her before. From the first days we dated, she told me that one of the characteristics she liked most about me was that I'm completely different from Swedish men... I don't know exactly what that means hahaha Swedish men seem like amazing guys to me, but I don't know many of them so I still don't really understand what the differences are. I intend to spend a few months in Sweden, and maybe I can understand a little better how things work there...
If people would be more outspoken and express themselves and not hold back basic feelings, more deep feelings and be more down to earth and communicate, then the dating world be so different and more real. Not like playing mind games. People are afraid to be themselves and it won't do anything for you.
I think that many, both men and women, think it's perfectly okay to have casual sex with a new contact, and that both parties' expectations are reasonable in that situation, that it's a nice moment together without demands and expectations for something more in the future, you may continue to see each other just for sex, or become friends, or both, or never see each other again, or get married and have children, but everyone should be skeptical and beware if someone promises everything, and anything, just to get sex, if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is
Well, I seek for that kind of society. Here in Brazil, or in the US, it’s all about having money, playing hard to get, status. People are dissimulated, I don’t like it very much.
I am Portuguese and live in the US, and I also lived in Sweden and with a Swede for several years and we have a child. I love it here in the USA. Men here in general are more chivalrous (older guys, not young ones).
I am an American woman living in Sweden and have come across plenty of foreign men scrambling to get a visa to stay in Sweden after their Swedish girlfriend dumped them suddenly. I would be weary of the Swedish woman because the feminist mindset has been drilled into them for generations. I am with a Swedish man who bent over backwards to impress me, we've been together almost 10 years, have two children and now a set of twins on the way. We have had a more traditional approach to our relationship from the beginning. Not saying everything is perfect but I am happy to be moving on in life with a long term partner and children.
I’m from Gothenburg and I don’t understand what you are talking about, super out spoken here and love to flirt with womans if I am interested and they fills my expectations…
Fitzgerald comes to mind: The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function.
13:07 Exactly! It's the very important point. This, among other things, is why I appreciate Swedish culture so much. For me it's not the issue of not getting sex (I can have a relationship without sex if the girl doesn't want sex), but the whole concept of seducing, luring a person with courtship or whatever - it's just unnatural to me. We are 2 free persons of equal right who choose to spend time together, because we like each other's company. If both want sex, there is sex. If not, then not. No problem ❤
I have to say the host is trying with thoughtful questions but the guest is oblivious and contradictory. "Men don't even do the small things..OMG he made breakfast whoop de do"
She have voted to get this and now shes talking shit aboute Sweden and swedish men, and wants the men to pay but Stockholm girls have bad reputation, but her brittish boyfrend dont know that. Small town girls in Sweden get their traditional family , but stockholm girls have growed up with feminism and more often getting partners that are sot Swedes.
In America as an African American woman we kinda expect the men to pay without saying and most of the men are aware of this but since there is also a concern for safety, we may offer to split the bill if we fear that the man might feel entitled to sex after paying for us. Some men will try and pressure us into sleeping with them under the idea that we owe them for the food, like they paid for us or something. It can be kinda stressful.
As an Eastern European guy living in the U.S. and as much as I love black women, never had one. Cuz this safety thing is out of control. U check online to make sure he is not a creep or kller or something and all this safety kills the vibe. But I understand where you’re coming from at the same time. Living not far from black community but looks like I have to buy a ticket to Africa 😊
Time: 21:54 Reg. The project manager situation. The boyfrind incthis case has a typical toxic behavior where he is trying to put all responsibilities on the her and then claim no responsibility when/if the relationship ends.
Thank you, Cecilia, your frankness, honesty and openmind is admirable and insightful on the dating/relationship culture and mindset in Swedish life. It's been an eye opener for me. Best wishes...
It sounds like a swedish "lite american" dating cultur. And this is from a women perspective. Both the questions about sex and wine and dinne. Easy to talk about topices when you look back in the mirror, when you have a conclusion. And in this intervju one can clearly se/hear her talking about easy life. She is a boss lady, and thinks like one too. I dont need men! And the man comes off as toxic. It's a strange world we live in. And X is a BIG, BIG no for me. Personally I think social media has affected women a lot, like Cecilia here is an example of. Constantly seeing women living "freely", doing whatever they want and have fantastic partners that does everything for them. But that's just the picture of social media, outside of the camera they just as boring as everyone else. Completely missing that a relationship is about making a good life together and learning lessons. It's not about fitting into model of an American romance movie or what you see on your instagram feed. It's quite ironic when she speaks about all these things but not once is she asking herself if she is expected to do the same. Equality goes both ways :)
It really seems like one demographic of women took over the rules of dating and relationships between men and women in Sweden, and so while that made them happy, it made things very difficult for the other demographic of women.
Sweden have implemented state individualism too the greatest extent of most countries. That means that the goal of the state is too help the individual to reach independent and develop the best potential. In exchange the state want collective trust too the state. So its a relationship between the state and the individual.
I tierd aboute swedish women and feminism, but sometimes i forget that when im drunk. I like Norwegian women but not Swedish. I dont want to have a relationchip in Sweden. And i dont like Sweden any longer. There are also to many arab guys everywhere. I can meet women on vacation abroad, and i like it that way.
It’s sad that she sees why Swedish men stopped approaching, recognized that most other cultures don’t view sex so casually, and yet still doesn’t realize that it’s a problem that needs to be corrected. There’s a saying in the US: Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free? A lot of men would rather enjoy sex without the financial, emotional, and physical bondage of marriage. There’s no risk and all reward in this case for men.
There’s a saying in Europe “why buy the pig because of one sausage?”. She was stating her own opinion that doesn’t mean she represents the whole nation. Those standards mostly work for most, not all cultures have the same standards so keep your American ones to yourself.
There’s a saying in Europe “why buy the pig because of one sausage?”. She was stating her own opinion that doesn’t mean she represents the whole nation. Those standards mostly work for most, not all cultures have the same standards so keep your American ones to yourself.
Nice conversation, but you had enough Scandinavian women on, they are kind of repetitive at this point. It would be much more interesting to hear more perspective about dating from lesser known/smaller places…
regarding the fact that one pays everything on a date, I would feel indebted and that there are expectations that I should pay back in some way, maybe in some way I don't want at all, if I am the one who paid everything, I feel that I owed the other, that I put the other in an unpleasant situation, so I would never propose something that I don't think both can afford, and expect both to pay for themselves.
would love to speak on your podcast if you're looking for more guests. have (fortunately or unfortunately) a lot of interesting dating stories, experiences, and takes
Minutes 23:25; Personal experience i has both tha lazy guy and the other one actively participating in the relationships; self initiative in cleaning, cooking, fun/outings & romance. The difference was one was a young adult (same age) and the other was a man (bit older than me), both Swedes
Love the talk here as a fellow Swedish globetrotter. I'll dare to open an alternative to the ".. men have become lazy .." theme: How about, nicely and positively, communicate your expectations to us men? I lost count to the times I'm suddenly met with a negative mood from the SO and me completely at a loss for what's up. Ok so I might be a really crappy iteration of a male human specimen as I completely lack the mind reading gene - so that magical relationship spice called mutual communication and making sure the other one feels they have been heard.
Here is my opinion of what the problem is (I'm Swedish and male); It's partially traditional cultural where it's have been pretty close for a very long time (and were Swedes and Finns are pretty similar) and partially newer culture with feminism, Metoo e.t.c. were Sweden have moved far beynd what the Finns have. Basicly it is that the Swedish men have taken a step back and women mostly don't have followed with a step forward, creating a gap were we don't meet each other.
Dating Beyond Borders has only interview extroverted Swedes who lives in big cities in the south. They only paint half the picture of dating in Sweden. Before dating apps Swedes got together through known social circles. Friend or someone's friend. My brother got together with his girlfriend by just spending time together. They took walks, played video games and watched movies and have been together over 5 years.
I hope people know that "Jantelagen " is a word from the book Fugitive Covers His Tracks by the danish/norwegian writer Axel Sandemose. The story is about a fictive danish village called Jante, where people are intolerant, narrowminded and demand from people to never stand out. The word "Jantelagen" has been misundertood for being a real law / something every swede has to follow which is in fact untrue.
So interesting conversation! Especially around the money. My question for Cecilia is what does she bring if he's paying for everything? An example is that I dated a beautiful Romanian and she made a lot of effort to look after herself, but a Swede won't even put on make up for a date. My experience is that Swedish women act entitled unfortunately, not all, but in general. I guess it's the same with the guys but not sure. She only talked about what she gets and not how she shows her appreciation for him, and couldn't give a reason why a guy should pay other than feeling like a princess. For me personally I will discreetly pay, and it is nice to get a thank you at least, so I understand that guy that they would've dropped her if she hadn't of at least offered to split. Also some girls really want to pay, so that they don't feel any obligation...it's a mine field 😅 100% agree with the lack of passion, sometimes a good thing, sometimes not (don't bother with going to a concert there for example). And would add that Swedes are so afraid of confrontation, just the communication is terrible, nobody talks about anything until it just explodes or quietly dies. my experience anyway.
I usually watch the video in its entirety before commenting, but considering the length, I'll just start writing (I have watched until 31 min). Let me first say I am not Swedish, Finnish, or Scandinavian in any way. I'm learning Norwegian and that as close as I am to any Scandinavian culture. I am a gay Black American young man, currently 24yrs old. I think the problem with this dating situation in Sweden (based on this video and Cecilia's shared experience via this video) is that society is simply changing. This could potentially be said about a plethora of "Western Countries". Gender norms, our collective idea's of femininity and masculinity, and how we are practicing these norms are in a transition period if you will. Most countries run on a patriarchal framework that makes men the primary holders of power, the figures in our governing classes, etc. which trickles down to leading the home, financially providing for his family, and "protecting" his family. The result of this is that women are put in a position to submit to men, a man's will, and take on a role of subservient actions as it relates to men and masculinity, hence why traditional gender roles are a thing. Our great grandparents, grandparents, and even some of our parents practiced and lived by these ideas whether by active choice or subconscious socialization. Present day (due to a lot of civil rights movements of the past, current media, and overall evolution of societal ways of thinking) we are now in a place where equality is very much on the rise and people do not know how to operate in that framework in terms of romantic relationships. It simply goes against what we are socialized to do as men, women, and people. This applies to Sweden (again based on what I am hearing rather that personal experience). Cecilia at 27:43 responding to Marina's question, says she knows it sounds hypocritical but she likes the equality in Sweden but still wants men to act traditional (in regard to paying on the first date). Marina (after Cecilia gives more context) asks why she feels that way at 29:33 to which Cecilia says more or less she would love to feel appreciation. My question for women who want it "both ways" (modern and traditional) is you want to feel appreciation based on what? Showing up to the date on time? Being dressed up on the date? I ask these questions not to be crass but to just show how this potentially sounds to modern men. Generally speaking in a modern day context, what have you as a woman done to expect a stranger to pay for you on the 1st, 2nd, or in some cases 3rd date? Men I'm sure do not want to be or feel used by a stranger based on her being a woman. Men also are going through this shift from traditional to modern along side women so I'm positive there are frustrations, concerns, and opinions on both sides. Even Marina's line of questioning a bit after or just her comments to add to the conversation are evidently traditional (which is not a bad thing). I think women who like modern gender norms with a touch of traditional need to find men who are going to agree to that dynamic, which seems like a very rare find. Or they will have to pick a relationship that is more or less completely traditional, especially if you expect a man to seduce, pursue you, pay for your meals and gifts, ect. All of those listed are traditional expectations...which means you as a woman will be expected to "fall in line" with idealized traditional femininity and be "submissive", become a stay at home mother, and let this man lead.
An educated woman with a job is not the problem! A woman who expects kind remarks and kindness-cleaning, pleasant chitchat, etc… in return for her kindness-dishes, fun outings, etc… the woman who does this is capable and not the PROBLEM this type of guy is acting like she is….as an excuse for laziness. If a girl puts in effort, match her effort or do more! If your mom didn’t teach you right how to relate to a woman, don’t blame a woman for being an adult and turning yourself into a child! These guys have excuses to the end of the earth but want sex and affirmation without giving any. Gross type of guy. This guy would rather have a needy, whiny woman around?? Then go ahead and have your life and savings taken away by a woman who can’t be an adult. Marriage is mutual and both need to put in efforts….and then they need to see the efforts of the other person and then they grow in happiness. Marriage is supposed to make you happy…not a parent to the other. What, hard times come along? Be the adult and handle it and then get back to the wonderful vis a vis.
Men: I am a provider Women: Okay provide Men: Gold digger Women: Okay , I will build up my career Men: You are masculine, no man wants an independent woman
strawman argument. Most men have no problem with providing for a woman they are serious about if they can. The same goes for a woman's career. most men do not mind if she has a job. You have been watching too much Freshandfit
I think the word Cecilia was looking for was decisive. When she was looking for another descriptive word to replace easy. I plan to visit. Watching this video its hard to think America isn't heading this way. If all the men don't leave.
I really love your channel and all the divulgation work you do! But I was thinking it would be really great if you could do more episodes with people who have had a positive outcome from dating people in Scandinavia (or elsewhere). Sometimes I feel like we see only one side of the dating experience which I've ended up noticing is mostly negative, but I'm sure there are many successful stories as well! 🤗🤗
That is because she’s biased, she wasn’t lucky dating in Sweden and then she started bashing Scandinavians, she even made a video making fun of the fact that Swedish men are devoted fathers. I was very disappointed to see that, I really liked her before
I didn't try dating in Sweden 😂 and while Scandinavian mentality isn't one I can resonate with, there are definitely aspects I really like. I have made other episodes that are more positive. Each culture has positives and negatives to it and this episode was the more negative one for sure
@@datingbeyondborderscast It’s very obvious here how you feel bitter about Scandinavian culture, you don’t have to like or love how other people live, nor anyone has to like your way of living, but it’s obvious you wanted to ridicule dating in Sweden and fathers who take care of their own children. Maybe that concept is strange for you since you’re a North American, but like you could see, it’s normal in Sweden. You can’t impress Swedish guy by being “traditional” woman, but that doesn’t mean you should sh*t on Swedish men because they didn’t find you interesting. That also doesn’t mean someone else wouldn’t find you attractive or interesting, you just have to look elsewhere, the US would be better to look at. I would argue that dating in Scandinavia is much better than you think because everyone can be open to express what they want and to be sure that they want the same thing since is not uncommon to agree about intimacy before it happens. Is that romantic? No. Is that practical? Absolutely yes.
I couldn't agree more even as Finn. It's quite sad to hear a hint of disappointment towards the guys, when in reality, everyone is a victim in this phenomenon of not being able to approach people out of The Fear. I don't personally feel like that I'm a total pussy but because I grew up in a small rural town, the "city-women" feel very unapproachable with all the fancy stuff on and there you are some hick from Podunk nowhere building courage by drinking yourself blackout drunk. I've stopped doing that decades ago, so now there's not even an option to talk to anyone.. It's crazy.
Don't you think it's their own problem that they are afraid to approach? Btw, I am a Greek who's had a relationship with a Swede, while my cousin is happily living with a Finn. I've always made the first moves and got rejected sometimes. Isn't that natural? Why the fear, then? It's only a matter of taste.
I can only speak from my perspective. I match with most guys on tinder however the Swedish guys *very rarely* write me first. I'm aware that there are better looking girls than me and most Swedish girls have no problem making the first move so maybe they are spoiled for choice. However this is a dealbreaker for me, I never write first and if they want to split the bill on the first date there won't be a second. As a result I basically only go on dates with foreign guys because they always write first without exception. Women set the standard and men behave thereafter.
I think that Cecilia would have a very hard time dating in my country, mainly because no one would date someone who is open to having sex on the first date. She thinks of herself as a feminist, but in her heart, she wants the exact opposite. She seems to be a very harsh and not empathetic person to Swedish guys. From my experience with Swedes, they have a hard time coping with living in their country because of the harsh weather. They are depressed, lonely, and afraid of aggressive women who act like men. Bring these guys to Latin America or Southeast Asia, and they adapt and become the happiest, kindest, and friendliest people in the world.
Weather can affect women too, lol There is something we call “cultural differences” and that is fine, what works in Sweden doesn’t have to work elsewhere and vice versa. The reason she thinks that way is because sex is considered as something where both parties are equal, not as a “gift” that woman gives to a man, if you see it as a gift than you have to be ok with that being a tool of punishment for you when she’s mad. So every system has something good or bad you just need to find what works for you and let others to decide for themselves
@@Commentator488 Wow, that's so interesting to hear. I think it will be big suprise to you but in other countries sex is not considered only as a gift.
I can’t comprehend why Swedish girls don’t understand that there’s no benefit to commit to a relationship with them when you get everything for free from them
folx really, delaying sex solves exactly NOTHING - it wastes just more time. if it does not work after having immediate sex it will surely not working better if people wait some time and then have sex. this whole idea is already naive ...
I feel Swedish and German men are similar. As a woman, at least for me, you somehow want to feel WANTED. I need to know that a guy likes me. Isnt that for guys the same? I hate playing games. If you just want to hook up at least tell me so I can make my OWN decision to move on or engage in that. I dont like too passive guys because I dont own the guy anything in the sense that I am neither his mum, psychologist nor person to bring him out of his shell. A relationship to me is about setting intentions so you can at least set the intention to want to get to know this person, ask them things about them, be curious, you can also do that as a shy person. And if you have difficulties with that, at least set the intention to communicate that you are shy so the other person understands where you are coming from and then it might not come across as passive. Sorry, I dont have any excuses for passive behavior or bad communicators. I feel that a good relationship is about building each other up, how can you do that with a person that is not interested in engaging in a real conversation.... I honestly prefer to date men from Southern Europe or the USA. At least its easier to see through their games because they are more expressive in their opinions and you know what they are up to :D I feel with Swedes or Germans it is hard to understand their true intentions and that is never good in the dating world.
Lack of self-confidence because fear of rejection. Men need to abuse substance to get that confidence boost in case something goes south so they wouldn't care. See, women are extremely selective too. If you're not a good looking guy, it has to be compensated with something good looking guys don't have. Also, she would want to be wanted by someone she desires which is usually the physical appeal that matters the most not so much what's in the head upstairs. A few women I know are well into their 30's still single but getting fat now, wrinkles here and there, still thinking they can get anyone they want and still complaining about not getting any holding on the standards for men as if they were 20 young and super attractive.
getting married is not only the wedding and celebration , it is a legal commitment. Sex for Sweedish people is just an activity but no real emotional connection. It is horrible to act as giving instructions or demanding your partner to do such and such (very intimidating for a man) . Sex is a dance and connecting .
Most women probably wouldn't share the opinion of this girl in Sweden.. Such men would be considered "fool" in Sweden, and why should they pay for the girl if they would never meet her again..
If you do not know what you want don't expect your date to know either. To then be upset about that is a bit... I agree 100% many want equality and still all the traditional advantages but not the traditional responsibilities. It is like expecting full time pay but only part time work. ...unrealistic.
Grew up in Sweden, stockholm, now living in USA. Swede men no approaching women and blaming Me2 is pure bulls*it. They had that behavior during the 90s already and from my older friends anecdotes even before that. So no, not true.
You should always treat women of any age well and behave like a gentleman. If you immediate judge someone based on their age or looks, you are screwed already. You might end up rejecting someone who would be a great partner. I am amazed by how this generation of men has devolved so much.
@@joanofarcxxi You can thank White erasure and multiracialism. Rap music and Andrew Tate are behind this. Also, Jordan Peterson, who promotes Christianity/Abrahamism, but that's also White erasure.
All in all it is a society of contradictions: they all want to play politically correct, not standing in each others way and respecting their own space, freedom and individualism but they complain of being lonely. Very superficial and selfish way of behaving it is impossible to build up true connection and real relationships. All relationships build and develop upon work and effort from both sides. It seems there is a lot of misunderstanding and no communication. What about a building a lifetime project together? How all this translate in having a common economy and children ?
Sweedish people have a hard time connecting emotionally. In sex you can choose to detach emotionally. And to Sweedish people is ok to have casual sex because :1. no need to connect emotionally. 2. It is well accepted. I see they have a hard time connecting and communicating. They behave as they are "supposed " to act: Lagom.
If he makes 50 000 sek a month and I 15 000 sek, then I think it should not be a problem for the man. But I like to pay for myself and then I don't have to think about it. And I don't appreciate stingy people, men and women. So if I feel that the man is stingy I would never meet him again. Not because I want something from him. This kind of men don't turn me on. As for the sex I don't want to go to bed with somebody I don't know. Even if he is an Apollo. But some people are desperate. And then of course we all do strange things, meet people we don't like really, etc etc. But very seldom I hope. Of course it is very important if a man can share children care, cooking etc but only that can never make your life fun, interesting. You get bored to death. Literally. If it is too boring, if you have to be the manager of the project all the time then leave it. If many more women did it the lazy men would wake up. They are lazy but they know very well what is good for them.
because the women are past wall and starting to become bitter because they don't have near the prospects they had in their 20's. Standard single 35+ female
as an american man, I don't get why people in these comments don't like the swedish girl in this. it's normal to want someone to put effort into the relationship. when I move to sweden, I'd absolutely be putting effort into a relationship with a swedish girl
They (not all but most) are just like American women, or western women in general. The Swedish woman of the 1970s movies don't exist any longer, unless you are into feminists.
I think you should make the same video with a "normal" average Swedish man too cause this girl is so hypercritical as they become.... i am not surpriced that her old relationships have turned out as they did. 1 maybe strong sidenote, Do not take in Swedish people from Stockholm cause the rest of the swedes will propably not agree to their way of being, attitude and such.
We need another one with Swedish man as interviewee.
Here's one for you, just look up "The Sexual Consent Law" which was applied in Sweden back in 2018.
😢
I tried to date Norwegians as gay. I come from central Europe. Sometimes I wonder if Norwegians really want to know someone. They are matching, but almost none responding to hi. Of course I have to write first, but got used to that. Those three whom I met were even nice, but it took a lot of effort from me to keep up conversation alive and make nice atmosphere. And it worked, but cost me a lot. They also expected that I will work on this relation, ask for everything etc. Not a single trace of initiative, emotions, interest, dedication. Nothing. Nothing more than ONS which I honestly hate. Brazilians are far better. Warm people, lot of topics to talk about, easy to make friends with, even if shy they are very open, iterested, dedicated on the same level as I am, without that discrete smell of superiority and contempt coming sometimes from Norwegians. Years ago I thought that southern people are too temperamental for me, Scandinavians are just in point, but you know what? After I treat my depression and anxiety disorder on therapy, I realized that typical Scandinavian attitude is literally opposite to that, what I like in people :) So my advice is therapy + Brazilians :)
Lol. Therapy plus Brazilians. Babe, Brazilians *are* the therapy.
@@pneron2032😅😅😅😅😅😅
I had the same experience but as a woman. The conversations almost always died because I was doing all the talking 😅
I’m Brazilian and this made me very happy. Warms hugs from Brazil!
@@SabiousIA hot, crazy 🇧🇷 ❤😂
As a Swedish guy I have to say that the line between Interested-->Not Interested-->Creep probably appears to be much broader/more obvious for women. But for a guy that line is very very thin. The more attractive/charismatic you are, the more of a "free pass" you get on that scale. Doesn't matter if it's IRL or online.
I just wish more women gave compliments in general, most guys I've spoken to haven't received any compliment in years. A woman can just post a picture on the on whatever platform to instantly get a bunch of compliments from men, sure it's far less common out on the street though (and feels more genuine), but it's still something.
Personally I think social media has affected women a lot, like Cecilia here is an example of. Constantly seeing women living "freely", doing whatever they want and have fantastic partners that does everything for them. But that's just the picture of social media, outside of the camera they just as boring as everyone else. Completely missing that a relationship is about making a good life together and learning lessons. It's not about fitting into model of an American romance movie or what you see on your instagram feed. It's quite ironic when she speaks about all these things but not once is she asking herself if she is expected to do the same. Equality goes both ways :)
That's not even bringing in the biggest factor of them all and that's the ratio of women vs men showing interest. Dating apps give a good indication. If she scrolls for a couple of minutes there will be 50 guys lined up and she has all the time and power in the world to choose which one of them that seems the most interesting (if any). A lot of those guys who are lined up, she might be the only one they matched with in several days. So not only does this man have to win the lottery ticket to match with her, he now has to win a second ticket to win her interest, THEN he is expected to show up as the gentleman that puts her on a pedestal while having no flaws visible. Of course very few people could ever live up to that expectation. It's no wonder people get disappointed or falls into mental health issues.
Still have to give some credits to Cecilia though, because she actually asked a few guy friends about the situation, most women (in my experience) don't.
The dating apps do some shady tricks to present the illusion of both abundance and scarcity, esp for men. How do they do that? They create abundance by using bots and dormant accounts because the ratio of men to women is 3:1. This encourages men to swipe right. However, the guy doesn’t make matches which isn’t surprising as a lot of these “women” don’t exist or aren’t available. This is to encourage men to pay for the premium options.
@Ca11mero……100% on 🎯!! It seams that we have fallen into a feminism a la cart. The Disney fantasy cannot be sustained. The real losers are the kids that get caught up in the mess when parents divorce/split.
Stay away from this type of woman
The people you get Approched by nothing to be jallious of trust me. Most of them are either Toxic, desperate, or just want fun, even manipulate you by being kind talking about wanting a relationship. Also people you dont have the same values with. i stooped dating apps becuse that did not give me any happyniess and i dont like going out. And attention is not the same as finding genuine attention. I have guy friends i try to tell them also the attention is not from someone that would want a comitment. if they are it mostly the most desperate people that dont want to be alone or lack of option take any girl. Lots of people want something from you inclues use you for thier benefits. Also lots of people dont wanna get married is rare to meet someone that think as you do. also some not everyone i noticed are bad at being romantic. doesnt need to be american movies. Boring not a bad thing meaning healthy too. But if you feel as it a friend and not a partner is also sad. when people thinking just thinking about them self. or put you last for exemple. its not people cant her thier life. But feeling as you been wanted and loved is important too.
Even for a popular guy even very handsome. even if they have options some just approch them for looks. ad if he just want fun one thing. But if he is annoyed people just want him for that can be very annoying and harder to find a genuine one. having lots of attention doeesnt mean serious relationship thinking people and people that have a healthy mindset and like you for you. having Attention can damage people too if they just want things for thier benefits.
this women is a feminist but want's a traditional man good luck with that
……feminist a la cart……..
there are women that doesnt want that. only becus hook up culture is comon doesnt mean every girl is the same. same as not every man is the same. this people that dont like it stay single for a long time instead. and refuse to be a part of it.
also party places is not the best place to meet anyone in any coutry or dating apps. some few might been lucky. but not the case for many people. some people are scared to be lonley and are insecued and give in until they realise many people wont comit.
She’s just like any other man with podcasts and microphones, so go and criticize them also
And 8 out of 10 men in Sweden wants a traditional woman, you can't win.
"most guys I've spoken to haven't received any compliment in years". (Good statement). WE NEED THOSE FUCKING COMPLIMENT...
I really would like to be a guest here and talk about dating as a man in Sweden
you can say it
If you decide you want a relationship with a man based on whether or not the sex was good, you will FAIL. That's like putting the chariot ahead of the horse. The reason why there is such a disconnect in current dating culture is because everyone is confused and no longer understand their place in the mating game. Whether we are aware of it or not, our behaviors have been shaped by thousands of years of mating practices, which are instinctual and subconscious. Men and women are drawn to what appeals to them, respectively. Fundamentally, we still act according to ancient biological and social patterns, even though modern society sends us a plethora of mixed messages. The girl in white is a bit brash, but she doesn't realize this. If I were a man, I would probably not want to date her. It's not because of her appearance, but because of her energy.
A man will enjoy the opportunity of easy sex, but they will unlikely commit to women who are aggressive and indiscriminatory. If you make it easy for him to access your body, why should he try so hard to pursue you? He got what he wanted, you got what you wanted, and now you are making it too difficult for him. I am not saying that it's wrong to go for what you want as a woman. I am saying that it's not going to work for everyone, and perhaps there is a better way. I am saying it's logical that in scandinavia men have become so passive. Because the women have become too aggressive and give off such conflicting signals. I am latina and have never been going to bed with a man on a first date. Especially if I like a man, I wait and get to know him well. I respect myself and I respect him. If he wants me, he will show it, and I don't have to do anything special except be nice and make a safe space for him to advance if he wants to. He will know what to do. If a guy only wants easy sex, he will not stick around, and it's totally okay with me, because he's not my type anyway.
I resided in Sweden, and for 12 years cohabiting with a Swedish partner, and we share a child. The relationship ended due to his alcoholism and intermittent binges, coupled with his refusal to seek assistance for quitting drinking. It was affecting our family life. I wouldn't prioritize dating another Swede, as they often seem to struggle with open emotional expression, which is why often they feel they need to drink to open up. I'm not entirely opposed to the idea; however, I'm currently interested in someone who isn't Swedish. The person I am with knows I am not an easy lay. We have been friends for some time and genuinely appreciate each other's company. Despite our long acquaintance, I have chosen not to become sexually involved, and he respects me for that. He knows how rare it is nowadays. I am traditional and unapologetic about it. I have no regrets. It works for me. I never slept with a man who dumped me after. In Sweden it's way too easy for men and women to have sex. It becomes meaningless and robotic. It's not special. And that doesn't work for me.
I appreciate the gradual development of romance, the chivalry, and the process of getting to know someone on various levels, engaging in activities together that are not centered around sex, and building a friendship. Now residing in the USA, I find that men here can still be romantic. It's crucial, however, to be upfront about what you're seeking from the start and to have the patience to wait for it. Long-term relationships with men who are willing to do things for you are definitely achievable. It's not merely about expecting a man to do things for you; it involves reciprocating those actions, mutual respect, understanding that love has its highs and lows, and recognizing that the need for compromise is essential because a perpetual state of infatuation is unrealistic. Within a committed and loving relationship, sex can be so beautiful, powerful, exciting, mysterious, comforting, and very importantly, healing, but too many people treat it like a mere casual and unconscious mechanical body function.
"If you decide you want a relationship with a man based on whether or not the sex was good, you will FAIL." - nicely put. :)
" I am saying it's logical that in scandinavia men have become so passive. Because the women have become too aggressive and give off such conflicting signals." - "Coerced sex/morning after regret" is a crime in Sweden. This is what Julian Assange was accused of.
I believe that since the traditional gender roles have dissolved, there’s been a lot of confusion on both sides-especially regarding what is expected from the other side and from oneself. What makes it even more complicated is that it’s not just dependent on culture or personal preferences; now we also have the internet. The last and perhaps most significant component, which is likely even harder to grasp, is the psychology behind it all. We all know that we subconsciously repeat patterns we learned in childhood. If those weren’t positive, things get difficult, because we often seek out what we’re familiar with.
Given that we live in a hedonistic society where everyone primarily thinks of themselves, it’s wise to always ask oneself, "What do I expect, and what do I want to give to the other person?" And the answer doesn’t have to be the same on both sides. It’s just important that both are clear about this so that they can seek it out and clarify upfront whether it’s a match. Each side should be valued, otherwise the relationship is doomed to fail. Slipping into a relationship through sex, if that’s the goal, is probably not an intelligent strategy. One of the biggest mistakes of our generation is likely making sex easily accessible while treating communication as something too intimate. The greatest mistake of our generation is allowing men and women to be turned against each other.
@@alexandervanlohen4229 "Slipping into a relationship through sex, if that’s the goal, is probably not an intelligent strategy." - Ditto :)
@@alexandervanlohen4229 " Slipping into a relationship through sex, if that’s the goal, is probably not an intelligent strategy" - nicely put. Cecilia seems have a lack of self-awareness. So she's older, no real career path, working in a clothing store, not wife material, and she's hjeaded for a cat lady existence wondering "it's men's fault".
Keep your standards to yourself. We don’t see that as a respect or disrespect of ourselves here.
You’re traditional and you still ended up divorced, isn’t traditional, conservative women that vowed she will be there in the sickness and health, supposed to do everything to help her husband and not just leave him?
Like I said, keep those standards to yourself if it works for you, which is not
If I knew that the person I am dating sleeps with people on the first date, I'd be thinking that when they are not with me they are on a "first date". In short, I don't think that I could have a relationship with such a person.
It can go, and often has gone and does go, terribly wrong if you take cultural expectations of what men and women are supposed to behave like as signs of how they feel for you romantically. The harsh truth about dating anywhere in the world, Sweden included but not Sweden more than anywhere else, is that you take emotional risks doing so. You can be decieved in what you thought the other party meant with something, what you thought they felt for you, no matter how they expressed themselves, so don't make this about Swedes! I'm a Swede, I've been in happy relationships with other Swedes and with men from other parts pf the world too, and I have also been surrounded by couples in well-functioning relationships and my view of Swedish men is this: they are all different from eachother. Wow, what a surprise! Who would have thought! Of course, as anyone from the Northern hemisphere can probably feel, we need more emotional rest during the darker months of the year, and it IS hard to feel as passionately about anything in January as in July, but that doesn't make us into those flat cartoon people Marina described. Just see how passionate I am about not having my culture misrepresented, eh? Wink wink. I feel after watching this that Swedish men were done especially dirty, so here I come, to their defence! I have wonderful, loving, caring men all around me. These men surprise their partners, tell them how they feel about them, tell them when they have done something well, tell them they look good. They also do their share in the home and even if it has taken most of my lifetime, I can even see my boomer father starting to take responsibility for maintaining his and my mother's common friendships - buying birthday gifts, calling people up spontaneously etc. And just look at how proudly and confidently they show their love for their children, in a way you hardly see outside the Nordic countries! Swedish men as a group have nothing to be ashamed of, nothing they need to change - any specific Swedish man will of course have faults and issues he should work on, just like any specific man or woman in this world.
She wants a traditional man but she is not traditional herself but a femenist? She will "offer" to pay but at the same time doesn't really wanna pay, If he agrees and she pays she will lose attraction. Picking and choosing the good things hahaha. Careful with these women guys.
Exactly, only pump and dump material...
"She wants a traditional man but she is not traditional herself but a femenist" - nice catch ;)
Trust me, it's worse in Iceland.
yep, too much demanding girls, makes man go away..........
You red pill bros all sound the same. Thinking that your passive aggressive comments can change women’s minds. It won’t.
13:15 Good point. Sondre from Norway also said that his grandma reminded him to "try before you buy". You can hear him on on Dating Beyond Borders Podcast too
That is serious cringe, its like trying to buy the right size of clothing or test driving a new vehicle, good grief that isn't not how human beings work. Relationships are work and effort and if people are too lazy for that its going to fail. It's not all about sex first and then the relationship later, terrible analogy.
@@michelleg7 i could not be in a relationchip if we weren’t compatible sexuel also.
Must Scandinavians dossn’t see anything wrong or scandalous in having sex. Its natural.
Cecelia's english is really good. What she seems to be avoiding is the "me too" possibility of being accused and investigated/prosecuted by a girl with morning after regrets (Swedish American with lots of swedish cousins). Julian Assange is an example.
11:40 - "If I want to go out and hook-up" - ok, damaged LT goods.
36:00 - "I'm willing to pay my part..." - ummm, what about paying for everything? He's been paying for both parties for months, and Cecilia's thoughts go as far as "my part"?
42:30 - Nice observation about "getting set in your ways" - OTOH, fairly lack of complete situational awareness about their future. After 35-40 - you are going to be alone (and making excuses).
Kept saying "I don't lnow if I want kids" - yes she does, but apparently to openly say that will upset her friends and indicate failure. Best wishes.
Typical American incel mindset
No, I am not the type of person to sleep with a stranger. Sex compatability is one thing and saying like get it out of the way first and then try the relationship, absolutely not. Sex can be worked on because you learn what your partner likes and dislikes, you have that conversation. Some people are great at it and some not but it can be improved upon. That is not how a relationship should be built upon just sex, no wonder sweden has such a high divorce rate. They like their safety net there but when it comes to relationships good lord its a disaster there. I was also listening to the model Iman and she says that the things that make a good relationship are absolutely the small things, so if a guy makes an omlete for you that is something that is fantastic and should be praised why not? Do you need to show it on social media no but if you want to then do it. Flowers are nice but that isn't important to me. if he makes me things, does small gestures for me those are the things I appreciate it more than flowers.
I enjoy life. I like nice women. Making things work well is my own responsibility. Without complaining, here are some fragments, not balanced, just a peek into the Swedish male side, to add to the picture you are painting: Quite often, both he and she learned from their mothers that men are bad. Men used to be afraid of rejection, now also of getting destroyed online or in court. Men's romantic or practical gestures very often get immediately criticized for not being good enough. Generous men hear "Do you think you can buy me?" (money is ugly in Sweden) Legally, good men lose their kids and their savings. Nice men respecting modern consent rules come off as unmanly. Men sometimes discover they have started dating a man identifying as a woman. Lots of Swedish men simply get used. I'm just throwing these fragments into the mix. Life is complex, nuanced, and can be viewed from different perspectives. Thanks!
I would rather be afraid of rejection than my own safety.
Not he nor she chooses between those two alternatives.
I thought exactly about everything you’ve said in your comment and could not have sympathy for her or Swedish women in general. I had three Swedish roommates when I first moved to the US. They bullied me to the moon and back for not being feminist, cooking and catering for my boyfriend, letting him lead me and buy me gifts. I’ve heard everything from them, that he was trying to buy me, he was using me, he was misogynistic because he ask me to make him dinner, he was abusive and manipulative etc..
Of course your men aren’t masculine, if they do anything remotely masculine or expect femininity out of you, you instantly demonize him.
I am South African and I have a Swedish significant other. We are Gen X and I wonder if this is a generation thing because of the arrival of the internet and social media? Though to be fair, my significant and I did meet online in 2004 on a dating website, but we made sure to meet up in person as soon as possible and while he did display the Swedish stereotype characteristics, I'm a very bold, outspoken, warm, bubbly and compassionate person. He's always been painfully shy, but others have told me that I made him blossom and I also think that it helps that neither of us ever wanted kids (it's very difficult to raise kids in South Africa!). I think it also helps that he lived in other countries before he came to South Africa and because of the line of work that he's in, he's had far more exposure to all kinds of foreigners and foreign cultures than the average Swede back then. And YES, I did have to make the first move when it came to sex, hahahahahaha! But then again, I've always been the type of woman who made the first move if I saw that the guy was shy (they are shy over here in South Africa as well!), so it wasn't anything unusual for me to make the first move to make things happen. This year will be our 20th anniversary and I can honestly say that I could never have ended up with a South African guy. I just never imagined that it would be a Swedish guy, because I never gave the country of Sweden a thought until I met him! 🤣🤣🤣
It's Gen Z and Gen Y issue. Their idea of sex is totally skewed. They will have a high rate of divorce since they can't pair bond. There is a divorce rate of 80% if the female has more than 10 sex partners.
@@BunnyWatson-k1wCan you link or mention the research on this? I’ve seen some research on this area, but not with the figures you’re quoting.
Such an interesting and lovely story!
Also South African dating a Swede :) I personally am finding passive masculinity to be more and more attractive as time goes on.
@@simacrulum I personally think that most of this is down to the concept of "Jantelagen" in Sweden. And I'm not dating a Swede. He's my spouse and we celebrated our 20th anniversary earlier this month. We live in South Africa. He's been here for a bit more than twenty two years, so I jokingly call him a South African Swede. 😉😊
Try telling the man how you really feel. I suspect this could be terrifying for Swedish women, (and it is for American ones, too), but it's something that helps men tremendously. If you have to go to the gym but want another date with him, say how you feel about those things:
"I really like you and it would make me happy to have another date to see how we get along. I'm really anxious about getting home because I have to get up early and I'll be too tired at work."
We're taught to believe that men can't handle our feelings, but good men can.
Maybe even admit about the paying thing, "I really like how egalitarian we are here, but honestly, I appreciate it when a man pays because it makes me feel liked and cared for."
I think being that straight is great, because you know very fast if you are on the same page with this person. Also asking questions on dating apps can safe a lot of time and heartbreaks. One of the biggest mistakes of our generation is likely making sex easily accessible while treating communication as something too intimate.
Does she realize that guys never get this confidence boost she complains about not receiving ?
Yes, because you are a man. Maybe it’s because we no longer have the rituals we once did, there’s a lack of father figures, and a feminization of raising men. Step into your strength. God made you physically stronger; you don’t have monthly hormonal fluctuations, and you don’t face harassment on the street, at work, or even at university. That doesn’t mean you can’t be vulnerable or show emotions. Step into your strength, into your power. There are great rituals for men with other men-it might even be better than therapy. Stay away from weak men like Andrew Tate; there’s good guidance out there, not from pathetic, low-minded criminal idiots. That’s not what being a man is about. Being a man means standing in your strength, taking responsibility, being a gentleman, a provider, a family man, and a protector. A woman can only fully be a woman when a man fully steps into his role as a man.
Thank you Cecilia for talking to Marina. It's so good to hear my Scandinavian neighbor 🇸🇪🇳🇴
I should hang out in Sweden for MidSummer
Thanks Sammi! Always love talking about Scandinavia as you now know 😊
@@datingbeyondborderscast You are very oldfashioned but you are probably around 50 years old, and your parents are russian to.
Feminism is strong in sweden, so there are potentially serious consequences if you approcah a woman and she doesn't like you and accuse you of SA. If a guy engages in sex with a woman, and the woman regrets it after a while, he can be convicted of rape, even after a couple of years.
Many end up in prison, and rape statistics are way up.
Maybe that’s your fear, but I doubt it. There might be women who misuse their power, but statistics show that men generally do this more often, not women. You've read some nonsense on the internet from people who profit off your insecurity and think that has anything to do with reality. Take a stand, behave like men of the old school, and you will be successful. And that starts in your head. Instead of listening to Andrew Tate, listen to the accounts of men from the post-war period-how they talked about their wives and how they behaved. Then, think about the values you want in a woman, make sure you live those values yourself, and then find the right woman. Be a man and approach her in a nice way. No games, no tactics! Be kind, smile, do her a favor, don’t pressure her-just normal, decent human behavior. And what if she doesn’t like you? Well, you can't force love. Thousands of women don’t get the man they fall in love with, and vice versa. That’s no reason to be aggressive towards the woman or to play the victim. That’s life! Man up! I've read countless comments here from men who are completely in the victim role-what’s wrong with you? Man up!
@@superxorn
They are up because of the way they are counted.
For example, you know how many marital R-pe Saudi Arabia has? Zero, lol, because they don’t count it at all.
The reason why it is up in Sweden is because it is taken seriously and women are encouraged to report it unlike in most countries where they are silenced by R-sts threats, society that will judged them, ask them what were they wearing etc.
@@superxorn
They are up because of the way they are counted.
For example, you know how many marital R-pe Saudi Arabia has? Zero, lol, because they don’t count it at all.
The reason why it is up in Sweden is because it is taken seriously and women are encouraged to report it unlike in most countries where they are silenced by aR-sts threats, society that will judged them, ask them what were they wearing etc.
@@Commentator488 If Saudi Arabia is on one extreme, Sweden is on another. Neither is any good. Sweden is the country where violence in a lesbian relationship is counted as "mens violence against women" Hatred against men is institutionalized.
Her boyfriend sounds very romantic and respectful, he shows his love through his actions. ❤
I think it's something relatively new that happened in society, when I was young and single at the end of the 90s and the beginning of the 00s, I was often out in the pubs in Stockholm, both with a group of friends and alone, and it was completely natural just making small talk with those who happened to be around you, without having any intention of picking someone up, it was just nice to be social, met most of my best friends like that, but now more everyone sticks to their clique, or stares in the cell phone, especially after the pandemic, it's a shame we can't meet and just talk to each other anymore
Hm I don't know I'm 40 and in my 20ies me and my friends did get approached all the time in bars. Even though I got approached all the time I had a very beautiful friend and the degree she got approached was on another level.
However, I spent some time in Spain and Brazil and I was approached so much more there. In Sweden basically only in the bars but in Spain and Brazil men could whistle or name calling etc etc.
It was always so nice to return to Sweden and feel more invisible.
I'm a Brazilian guy, and my girlfriend is Swedish.
We met in Barcelona, when I approached her walking down the streets...
She was very surprised and said that this had never happened to her before.
From the first days we dated, she told me that one of the characteristics she liked most about me was that I'm completely different from Swedish men...
I don't know exactly what that means hahaha
Swedish men seem like amazing guys to me, but I don't know many of them so I still don't really understand what the differences are.
I intend to spend a few months in Sweden, and maybe I can understand a little better how things work there...
@@marcopolo1765 It means that Swedish guys know she's a low value women...
If people would be more outspoken and express themselves and not hold back basic feelings, more deep feelings and be more down to earth and communicate, then the dating world be so different and more real. Not like playing mind games. People are afraid to be themselves and it won't do anything for you.
I think that many, both men and women, think it's perfectly okay to have casual sex with a new contact, and that both parties' expectations are reasonable in that situation, that it's a nice moment together without demands and expectations for something more in the future, you may continue to see each other just for sex, or become friends, or both, or never see each other again, or get married and have children, but everyone should be skeptical and beware if someone promises everything, and anything, just to get sex, if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is
Well, I seek for that kind of society. Here in Brazil, or in the US, it’s all about having money, playing hard to get, status. People are dissimulated, I don’t like it very much.
I am Portuguese and live in the US, and I also lived in Sweden and with a Swede for several years and we have a child. I love it here in the USA. Men here in general are more chivalrous (older guys, not young ones).
Same about Portugal. Hard to get girls with nothing to offer 😕
@@joanofarcxxi Well, you’re Portuguese. Traditional…
@@BracarensisWhat do you mean by “nothing to offer”?
@@Caio18ish yes, and nothing wrong with that.
I am an American woman living in Sweden and have come across plenty of foreign men scrambling to get a visa to stay in Sweden after their Swedish girlfriend dumped them suddenly. I would be weary of the Swedish woman because the feminist mindset has been drilled into them for generations. I am with a Swedish man who bent over backwards to impress me, we've been together almost 10 years, have two children and now a set of twins on the way. We have had a more traditional approach to our relationship from the beginning. Not saying everything is perfect but I am happy to be moving on in life with a long term partner and children.
I’m from Gothenburg and I don’t understand what you are talking about, super out spoken here and love to flirt with womans if I am interested and they fills my expectations…
Men from Gothenburg are different 🎉
Fitzgerald comes to mind: The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function.
13:07 Exactly! It's the very important point. This, among other things, is why I appreciate Swedish culture so much.
For me it's not the issue of not getting sex (I can have a relationship without sex if the girl doesn't want sex), but the whole concept of seducing, luring a person with courtship or whatever - it's just unnatural to me. We are 2 free persons of equal right who choose to spend time together, because we like each other's company. If both want sex, there is sex. If not, then not. No problem ❤
They love to cherry pick on tradition. But call themselves feminists😂
@@Bracarensis
On the other hand, you can also see incels cherry picking
Exactly, two grown adults, no games
I could not agree more.
She sounds like an absolute lovely girlfriend😑
She sounds like a smart person for me:)
Total 304.
you sound like you wouldn’t know.
I think she sounds rational
I have to say the host is trying with thoughtful questions but the guest is oblivious and contradictory. "Men don't even do the small things..OMG he made breakfast whoop de do"
She have voted to get this and now shes talking shit aboute Sweden and swedish men, and wants the men to pay but Stockholm girls have bad reputation, but her brittish boyfrend dont know that. Small town girls in Sweden get their traditional family , but stockholm girls have growed up with feminism and more often getting partners that are sot Swedes.
@@bjornen75
It’s not very patriotic of you to talk sh*t about Swedish women either.
As a danish woman (54) I can relate to all she’s saying. 🔥
In America as an African American woman we kinda expect the men to pay without saying and most of the men are aware of this but since there is also a concern for safety, we may offer to split the bill if we fear that the man might feel entitled to sex after paying for us. Some men will try and pressure us into sleeping with them under the idea that we owe them for the food, like they paid for us or something. It can be kinda stressful.
As an Eastern European guy living in the U.S. and as much as I love black women, never had one. Cuz this safety thing is out of control. U check online to make sure he is not a creep or kller or something and all this safety kills the vibe. But I understand where you’re coming from at the same time. Living not far from black community but looks like I have to buy a ticket to Africa 😊
Thank you very much Marina. Please have Cecilia again. It validates a lot of what you wrote in your book 😊
Time: 21:54
Reg. The project manager situation. The boyfrind incthis case has a typical toxic behavior where he is trying to put all responsibilities on the her and then claim no responsibility when/if the relationship ends.
Thank you, Cecilia, your frankness, honesty and openmind is admirable and insightful on the dating/relationship culture and mindset in Swedish life. It's been an eye opener for me. Best wishes...
The parental leave is not as good as she says. I've been working with it so i know.
Well, thats your subjective view.
It sounds like a swedish "lite american" dating cultur. And this is from a women perspective. Both the questions about sex and wine and dinne. Easy to talk about topices when you look back in the mirror, when you have a conclusion. And in this intervju one can clearly se/hear her talking about easy life.
She is a boss lady, and thinks like one too. I dont need men! And the man comes off as toxic. It's a strange world we live in. And X is a BIG, BIG no for me.
Personally I think social media has affected women a lot, like Cecilia here is an example of. Constantly seeing women living "freely", doing whatever they want and have fantastic partners that does everything for them. But that's just the picture of social media, outside of the camera they just as boring as everyone else. Completely missing that a relationship is about making a good life together and learning lessons. It's not about fitting into model of an American romance movie or what you see on your instagram feed.
It's quite ironic when she speaks about all these things but not once is she asking herself if she is expected to do the same. Equality goes both ways :)
As a danish woman, you and I heard two different interviews 😅
It really seems like one demographic of women took over the rules of dating and relationships between men and women in Sweden, and so while that made them happy, it made things very difficult for the other demographic of women.
Sweden have implemented state individualism too the greatest extent of most countries. That means that the goal of the state is too help the individual to reach independent and develop the best potential. In exchange the state want collective trust too the state. So its a relationship between the state and the individual.
I tierd aboute swedish women and feminism, but sometimes i forget that when im drunk. I like Norwegian women but not Swedish. I dont want to have a relationchip in Sweden. And i dont like Sweden any longer. There are also to many arab guys everywhere. I can meet women on vacation abroad, and i like it that way.
You should be feminist too.
You should be a feminist too
It’s sad that she sees why Swedish men stopped approaching, recognized that most other cultures don’t view sex so casually, and yet still doesn’t realize that it’s a problem that needs to be corrected.
There’s a saying in the US: Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free?
A lot of men would rather enjoy sex without the financial, emotional, and physical bondage of marriage. There’s no risk and all reward in this case for men.
There’s a saying in Europe “why buy the pig because of one sausage?”.
She was stating her own opinion that doesn’t mean she represents the whole nation. Those standards mostly work for most, not all cultures have the same standards so keep your American ones to yourself.
There’s a saying in Europe “why buy the pig because of one sausage?”.
She was stating her own opinion that doesn’t mean she represents the whole nation. Those standards mostly work for most, not all cultures have the same standards so keep your American ones to yourself.
Such a cultural different, which dossn’t make one thing more right then the other.
A really judging comment towards women.
Nice conversation, but you had enough Scandinavian women on, they are kind of repetitive at this point. It would be much more interesting to hear more perspective about dating from lesser known/smaller places…
And based on what I heard from them they are only good for pump and dump...
4:41 It's interesting that the American me2 Movement affects other countries too. Gosh....!
No compliments?😥Harsh truth from a 72 year old man that was as complement worthy as the next guy: Women Do Not give complements.
regarding the fact that one pays everything on a date, I would feel indebted and that there are expectations that I should pay back in some way, maybe in some way I don't want at all, if I am the one who paid everything, I feel that I owed the other, that I put the other in an unpleasant situation, so I would never propose something that I don't think both can afford, and expect both to pay for themselves.
to be clear, you pay with money or with your body
would love to speak on your podcast if you're looking for more guests. have (fortunately or unfortunately) a lot of interesting dating stories, experiences, and takes
Please email me at datingbeyondborders (at) gmail.com with more info!
Minutes 23:25;
Personal experience i has both tha lazy guy and the other one actively participating in the relationships; self initiative in cleaning, cooking, fun/outings & romance.
The difference was one was a young adult (same age) and the other was a man (bit older than me), both Swedes
Love the talk here as a fellow Swedish globetrotter.
I'll dare to open an alternative to the ".. men have become lazy .." theme:
How about, nicely and positively, communicate your expectations to us men? I lost count to the times I'm suddenly met with a negative mood from the SO and me completely at a loss for what's up. Ok so I might be a really crappy iteration of a male human specimen as I completely lack the mind reading gene - so that magical relationship spice called mutual communication and making sure the other one feels they have been heard.
Here is my opinion of what the problem is (I'm Swedish and male);
It's partially traditional cultural where it's have been pretty close for a very long time (and were Swedes and Finns are pretty similar) and partially newer culture with feminism, Metoo e.t.c. were Sweden have moved far beynd what the Finns have. Basicly it is that the Swedish men have taken a step back and women mostly don't have followed with a step forward, creating a gap were we don't meet each other.
Dating Beyond Borders has only interview extroverted Swedes who lives in big cities in the south. They only paint half the picture of dating in Sweden. Before dating apps Swedes got together through known social circles. Friend or someone's friend. My brother got together with his girlfriend by just spending time together. They took walks, played video games and watched movies and have been together over 5 years.
I hope people know that "Jantelagen " is a word from the book Fugitive Covers His Tracks by the danish/norwegian writer Axel Sandemose. The story is about a fictive danish village called Jante, where people are
intolerant, narrowminded and demand from people to never stand out. The word "Jantelagen" has been misundertood for being a real law / something every swede has to follow which is in fact untrue.
Honestly,Sweden needs someone like Kevin Samuels!!!!
So interesting conversation! Especially around the money. My question for Cecilia is what does she bring if he's paying for everything? An example is that I dated a beautiful Romanian and she made a lot of effort to look after herself, but a Swede won't even put on make up for a date. My experience is that Swedish women act entitled unfortunately, not all, but in general. I guess it's the same with the guys but not sure. She only talked about what she gets and not how she shows her appreciation for him, and couldn't give a reason why a guy should pay other than feeling like a princess. For me personally I will discreetly pay, and it is nice to get a thank you at least, so I understand that guy that they would've dropped her if she hadn't of at least offered to split. Also some girls really want to pay, so that they don't feel any obligation...it's a mine field 😅
100% agree with the lack of passion, sometimes a good thing, sometimes not (don't bother with going to a concert there for example). And would add that Swedes are so afraid of confrontation, just the communication is terrible, nobody talks about anything until it just explodes or quietly dies. my experience anyway.
I usually watch the video in its entirety before commenting, but considering the length, I'll just start writing (I have watched until 31 min).
Let me first say I am not Swedish, Finnish, or Scandinavian in any way. I'm learning Norwegian and that as close as I am to any Scandinavian culture. I am a gay Black American young man, currently 24yrs old.
I think the problem with this dating situation in Sweden (based on this video and Cecilia's shared experience via this video) is that society is simply changing. This could potentially be said about a plethora of "Western Countries". Gender norms, our collective idea's of femininity and masculinity, and how we are practicing these norms are in a transition period if you will.
Most countries run on a patriarchal framework that makes men the primary holders of power, the figures in our governing classes, etc. which trickles down to leading the home, financially providing for his family, and "protecting" his family. The result of this is that women are put in a position to submit to men, a man's will, and take on a role of subservient actions as it relates to men and masculinity, hence why traditional gender roles are a thing. Our great grandparents, grandparents, and even some of our parents practiced and lived by these ideas whether by active choice or subconscious socialization.
Present day (due to a lot of civil rights movements of the past, current media, and overall evolution of societal ways of thinking) we are now in a place where equality is very much on the rise and people do not know how to operate in that framework in terms of romantic relationships. It simply goes against what we are socialized to do as men, women, and people. This applies to Sweden (again based on what I am hearing rather that personal experience).
Cecilia at 27:43 responding to Marina's question, says she knows it sounds hypocritical but she likes the equality in Sweden but still wants men to act traditional (in regard to paying on the first date). Marina (after Cecilia gives more context) asks why she feels that way at 29:33 to which Cecilia says more or less she would love to feel appreciation. My question for women who want it "both ways" (modern and traditional) is you want to feel appreciation based on what? Showing up to the date on time? Being dressed up on the date? I ask these questions not to be crass but to just show how this potentially sounds to modern men. Generally speaking in a modern day context, what have you as a woman done to expect a stranger to pay for you on the 1st, 2nd, or in some cases 3rd date? Men I'm sure do not want to be or feel used by a stranger based on her being a woman. Men also are going through this shift from traditional to modern along side women so I'm positive there are frustrations, concerns, and opinions on both sides.
Even Marina's line of questioning a bit after or just her comments to add to the conversation are evidently traditional (which is not a bad thing). I think women who like modern gender norms with a touch of traditional need to find men who are going to agree to that dynamic, which seems like a very rare find. Or they will have to pick a relationship that is more or less completely traditional, especially if you expect a man to seduce, pursue you, pay for your meals and gifts, ect. All of those listed are traditional expectations...which means you as a woman will be expected to "fall in line" with idealized traditional femininity and be "submissive", become a stay at home mother, and let this man lead.
37:00 why communication is needed
Marina- you look greatin this video! Peach is your color!
Thank you!
An educated woman with a job is not the problem! A woman who expects kind remarks and kindness-cleaning, pleasant chitchat, etc… in return for her kindness-dishes, fun outings, etc… the woman who does this is capable and not the PROBLEM this type of guy is acting like she is….as an excuse for laziness. If a girl puts in effort, match her effort or do more! If your mom didn’t teach you right how to relate to a woman, don’t blame a woman for being an adult and turning yourself into a child! These guys have excuses to the end of the earth but want sex and affirmation without giving any. Gross type of guy. This guy would rather have a needy, whiny woman around?? Then go ahead and have your life and savings taken away by a woman who can’t be an adult. Marriage is mutual and both need to put in efforts….and then they need to see the efforts of the other person and then they grow in happiness. Marriage is supposed to make you happy…not a parent to the other. What, hard times come along? Be the adult and handle it and then get back to the wonderful vis a vis.
Men: I am a provider
Women: Okay provide
Men: Gold digger
Women: Okay , I will build up my career
Men: You are masculine, no man wants an independent woman
😂😂😂
😅😅😅😅
strawman argument. Most men have no problem with providing for a woman they are serious about if they can. The same goes for a woman's career. most men do not mind if she has a job. You have been watching too much Freshandfit
On point.
American incels in nutshell lol
I think the word Cecilia was looking for was decisive. When she was looking for another descriptive word to replace easy. I plan to visit. Watching this video its hard to think America isn't heading this way. If all the men don't leave.
I really love your channel and all the divulgation work you do! But I was thinking it would be really great if you could do more episodes with people who have had a positive outcome from dating people in Scandinavia (or elsewhere). Sometimes I feel like we see only one side of the dating experience which I've ended up noticing is mostly negative, but I'm sure there are many successful stories as well! 🤗🤗
That is because she’s biased, she wasn’t lucky dating in Sweden and then she started bashing Scandinavians, she even made a video making fun of the fact that Swedish men are devoted fathers. I was very disappointed to see that, I really liked her before
I definitely do 😊 you can check out the Podcast with Stefan Thyron which is a lot more nuanced.
I didn't try dating in Sweden 😂 and while Scandinavian mentality isn't one I can resonate with, there are definitely aspects I really like. I have made other episodes that are more positive. Each culture has positives and negatives to it and this episode was the more negative one for sure
@@datingbeyondborderscast
It’s very obvious here how you feel bitter about Scandinavian culture, you don’t have to like or love how other people live, nor anyone has to like your way of living, but it’s obvious you wanted to ridicule dating in Sweden and fathers who take care of their own children.
Maybe that concept is strange for you since you’re a North American, but like you could see, it’s normal in Sweden.
You can’t impress Swedish guy by being “traditional” woman, but that doesn’t mean you should sh*t on Swedish men because they didn’t find you interesting.
That also doesn’t mean someone else wouldn’t find you attractive or interesting, you just have to look elsewhere, the US would be better to look at.
I would argue that dating in Scandinavia is much better than you think because everyone can be open to express what they want and to be sure that they want the same thing since is not uncommon to agree about intimacy before it happens.
Is that romantic? No.
Is that practical? Absolutely yes.
So much hate and assumption from your comment. All the best :)@@Commentator488
I couldn't agree more even as Finn. It's quite sad to hear a hint of disappointment towards the guys, when in reality, everyone is a victim in this phenomenon of not being able to approach people out of The Fear. I don't personally feel like that I'm a total pussy but because I grew up in a small rural town, the "city-women" feel very unapproachable with all the fancy stuff on and there you are some hick from Podunk nowhere building courage by drinking yourself blackout drunk. I've stopped doing that decades ago, so now there's not even an option to talk to anyone.. It's crazy.
You should stay away from woman that have no problem having sex with strangers
Don't you think it's their own problem that they are afraid to approach? Btw, I am a Greek who's had a relationship with a Swede, while my cousin is happily living with a Finn. I've always made the first moves and got rejected sometimes. Isn't that natural? Why the fear, then? It's only a matter of taste.
@@tinademesticha9457
Rejection is normal part of life, you can be rejected from a job application also
You can try, you just need to overcome the fear of rejection
Also, try some hobbies and maybe you can meet someone there
You can try, you just need to overcome the fear of rejection
Also, try some hobbies and maybe you can meet someone there
I can only speak from my perspective. I match with most guys on tinder however the Swedish guys *very rarely* write me first. I'm aware that there are better looking girls than me and most Swedish girls have no problem making the first move so maybe they are spoiled for choice. However this is a dealbreaker for me, I never write first and if they want to split the bill on the first date there won't be a second. As a result I basically only go on dates with foreign guys because they always write first without exception. Women set the standard and men behave thereafter.
I think that Cecilia would have a very hard time dating in my country, mainly because no one would date someone who is open to having sex on the first date. She thinks of herself as a feminist, but in her heart, she wants the exact opposite. She seems to be a very harsh and not empathetic person to Swedish guys. From my experience with Swedes, they have a hard time coping with living in their country because of the harsh weather. They are depressed, lonely, and afraid of aggressive women who act like men. Bring these guys to Latin America or Southeast Asia, and they adapt and become the happiest, kindest, and friendliest people in the world.
"She thinks of herself as a feminist, but in her heart, she wants the exact opposite." - nicely put :)
Weather can affect women too, lol
There is something we call “cultural differences” and that is fine, what works in Sweden doesn’t have to work elsewhere and vice versa.
The reason she thinks that way is because sex is considered as something where both parties are equal, not as a “gift” that woman gives to a man, if you see it as a gift than you have to be ok with that being a tool of punishment for you when she’s mad.
So every system has something good or bad you just need to find what works for you and let others to decide for themselves
@@Commentator488 Wow, that's so interesting to hear. I think it will be big suprise to you but in other countries sex is not considered only as a gift.
I can’t comprehend why Swedish girls don’t understand that there’s no benefit to commit to a relationship with them when you get everything for free from them
Hit n run 😂Man u guys r so lucky
Its not as fun as it sounds like in the long run😂
@@exceedyou1174 do u prefer a 20 year marriage with no sex?
Im not afraid of a sexless marriage, I know what to do.
folx really, delaying sex solves exactly NOTHING - it wastes just more time. if it does not work after having immediate sex it will surely not working better if people wait some time and then have sex. this whole idea is already naive ...
Two women only talking about what men do wrong in relationships. Not a single word about what women (should) bring to the table.
I think it's true that they hold back to not be creepy but Swedish men are incredibly sweet, just sensitive
I just losing intrest even more when i hear this.
@@bjornen75
I’m pretty sure she’s not interested in your interest, so it’s all good
I feel Swedish and German men are similar. As a woman, at least for me, you somehow want to feel WANTED. I need to know that a guy likes me. Isnt that for guys the same? I hate playing games. If you just want to hook up at least tell me so I can make my OWN decision to move on or engage in that. I dont like too passive guys because I dont own the guy anything in the sense that I am neither his mum, psychologist nor person to bring him out of his shell. A relationship to me is about setting intentions so you can at least set the intention to want to get to know this person, ask them things about them, be curious, you can also do that as a shy person. And if you have difficulties with that, at least set the intention to communicate that you are shy so the other person understands where you are coming from and then it might not come across as passive. Sorry, I dont have any excuses for passive behavior or bad communicators. I feel that a good relationship is about building each other up, how can you do that with a person that is not interested in engaging in a real conversation.... I honestly prefer to date men from Southern Europe or the USA. At least its easier to see through their games because they are more expressive in their opinions and you know what they are up to :D I feel with Swedes or Germans it is hard to understand their true intentions and that is never good in the dating world.
If you are German, it is better to date another German man so that the children will have light features.
Lack of self-confidence because fear of rejection. Men need to abuse substance to get that confidence boost in case something goes south so they wouldn't care.
See, women are extremely selective too. If you're not a good looking guy, it has to be compensated with something good looking guys don't have. Also, she would want to be wanted by someone she desires which is usually the physical appeal that matters the most not so much what's in the head upstairs. A few women I know are well into their 30's still single but getting fat now, wrinkles here and there, still thinking they can get anyone they want and still complaining about not getting any holding on the standards for men as if they were 20 young and super attractive.
So subjective. Men are not the same.
Why not date another woman?
Enjoy your lives, don’t take it all so seriously
getting married is not only the wedding and celebration , it is a legal commitment. Sex for Sweedish people is just an activity but no real emotional connection. It is horrible to act as giving instructions or demanding your partner to do such and such (very intimidating for a man) . Sex is a dance and connecting .
Most women probably wouldn't share the opinion of this girl in Sweden.. Such men would be considered "fool" in Sweden, and why should they pay for the girl if they would never meet her again..
If you do not know what you want don't expect your date to know either. To then be upset about that is a bit...
I agree 100% many want equality and still all the traditional advantages but not the traditional responsibilities. It is like expecting full time pay but only part time work. ...unrealistic.
Grew up in Sweden, stockholm, now living in USA.
Swede men no approaching women and blaming Me2 is pure bulls*it.
They had that behavior during the 90s already and from my older friends anecdotes even before that. So no, not true.
it is better to buy a dog, it is faithful and loyal, which you cannot say about Swedish women
its cause you are all over 40 now you can't expect to be treated like you did when you were 20
You should always treat women of any age well and behave like a gentleman. If you immediate judge someone based on their age or looks, you are screwed already. You might end up rejecting someone who would be a great partner. I am amazed by how this generation of men has devolved so much.
@joanofarcxxi Why have women devolved so much? The change in men is the result.
Nice touch of reality :)
@@joanofarcxxi the point of dating is marriage the point of Marriage is to have kids old women can't have kids =-)
@@joanofarcxxi You can thank White erasure and multiracialism. Rap music and Andrew Tate are behind this.
Also, Jordan Peterson, who promotes Christianity/Abrahamism, but that's also White erasure.
Wow! Sick! The same 304s as American 304s. Heard enough...
"A great deal of controlled chaos"... the Swedish way.
Ok...
My God how the Tables have turned…
All in all it is a society of contradictions: they all want to play politically correct, not standing in each others way and respecting their own space, freedom and individualism but they complain of being lonely. Very superficial and selfish way of behaving it is impossible to build up true connection and real relationships. All relationships build and develop upon work and effort from both sides. It seems there is a lot of misunderstanding and no communication. What about a building a lifetime project together? How all this translate in having a common economy and children ?
Not complicated at all…
Sweedish people have a hard time connecting emotionally. In sex you can choose to detach emotionally. And to Sweedish people is ok to have casual sex because :1. no need to connect emotionally. 2. It is well accepted. I see they have a hard time connecting and communicating. They behave as they are "supposed " to act: Lagom.
Good, I'll give Sweden a visit then 😁
Lol, you seem to be slavic. Sorry, you're a subhuman to Swedish women, buddy. So enjoy being invisible
toxic rules
I love the swedish mentality
❤ Intressant diskussion ❤
two hypocritical people, it's all about them
If he makes 50 000 sek a month and I 15 000 sek, then I think it should not be a problem for the man. But I like to pay for myself and then I don't have to think about it. And I don't appreciate stingy people, men and women. So if I feel that the man is stingy I would never meet him again. Not because I want something from him. This kind of men don't turn me on. As for the sex I don't want to go to bed with somebody I don't know. Even if he is an Apollo. But some people are desperate. And then of course we all do strange things, meet people we don't like really, etc etc. But very seldom I hope. Of course it is very important if a man can share children care, cooking etc but only that can never make your life fun, interesting. You get bored to death. Literally. If it is too boring, if you have to be the manager of the project all the time then leave it. If many more women did it the lazy men would wake up. They are lazy but they know very well what is good for them.
39:51
Girls, you should give a chance to latin guys. Their vision of love will change forever.
Womanizing luv wow
@decollector95 jealous of a fleeting passion that leaves nothing but fatherless children, sure
@decollector95 yah keep wearing your condoms
@decollector95 good luck supporting 10 midgets
It's crazy how she can be this blind and ignorant to why men are like that in Sweden.
get another background for your podcast... dont do it on your bedroom.. content is so good but then aesthetics :/
Is this channel about grievances and complaints? Every time this channel pops up to my feed it's all about complaining.
because the women are past wall and starting to become bitter because they don't have near the prospects they had in their 20's. Standard single 35+ female
Do not date at all. Why would you? Is it because you want kids? No live alone. Sex is disgusting and useless unless you want kids
Interesting. But most people are not asexual.
Sizu... Nice Finnish movie ..
as an american man, I don't get why people in these comments don't like the swedish girl in this. it's normal to want someone to put effort into the relationship. when I move to sweden, I'd absolutely be putting effort into a relationship with a swedish girl
They (not all but most) are just like American women, or western women in general. The Swedish woman of the 1970s movies don't exist any longer, unless you are into feminists.
she seems very masculine and feminist like
I think you should make the same video with a "normal" average Swedish man too cause this girl is so hypercritical as they become.... i am not surpriced that her old relationships have turned out as they did. 1 maybe strong sidenote, Do not take in Swedish people from Stockholm cause the rest of the swedes will propably not agree to their way of being, attitude and such.