Breeding wasn't really central to Tolkien's mythos, just as food production and economies were just peripherals to his world. His mother, after his father's death, was financially supported by the Church. He was essentially a suburban Catholic boy from an Edwardian background who went to a cataclysmic war; after the war he stayed in academia for the rest of his life. Where the income came from was always at a distance. He wrote about what he knew, learning, honour and death.
Pretty sure food production is alluded to in the books, it simply took place on the opposite side of the map from the good races and behind enemy strongholds. Particularly in LoTR and Sauron with the production taking place in the East beyond Mordor where most of his human followers came from. There was no literary reason to mention this infrastructure as the story wasn’t about a war of attrition where the good guys needed to destroy supplies and supply lines. Lastly, orcs willingly eat each other and their enemies so usually have a good supply of meat on hand.
It's Jackson who ignores the need for food, as there's virtually no farmland anywhere in his version of Middle Earth, or in fact anything other than cities with narrow strips of wilderness between. Tolkien describes plenty of farmland though, and store of provisions being laid up against sieges, and even water depots being left on the Morgul plane where there is no natural water. The one area where he's consistently implausible is in population expansion and trade though. The idea of all these disconnected communities and good wild land that no one's trying to move into is pretty unbelievable considering there are humans in his story. I mean it's free real estate.
Nurnen is specifically where they grow most of the food in Mordor, either via slave labor (Human, Uruk, or otherwise.) or just straight up Uruk Farmers.@@knotengajin7359
@@tSp289 agrarian people only move into virgin territory when they are compelled to do so by overpopulation, famine or despotism. Breaking land is extremely difficult. Read the early accounts of the English at Jamestown if you want to be bummed out for a day. I don't know what the total fertility rate was for the women of Middle Earth. But I assume the infant mortality rate and average lifespan were similar to medieval Europe. They might have had a stable population that didn't require much pioneering. Having said that, I seem to remember a bit in the hobbit about stout hearted woodsmen settling virgin territory south of mirkwood. But I can't remember the exact quote
Remember Treebeard said, “trolls were made in mockery of Ents as Orcs were of Elves“ so that would imply there are female trolls as well. Since there were Ent-wives. Though somehow I imagine Ents reproducing via seed and fruit and not so much trolls
Weren't the ents dying out? Also, there being a sex division among ents doesnt preclude that they multiplied like trees. This would explain why the Ent-wives lived separately - there would be no need for direct contact.
The exact origin and 'reproductive habits' of Tolkien's orcs is one of my favourite mysteries from the world he created and one that I think is best left unexplained.
In The Hobbit Gollum is said to have killed and eaten a "small goblin-imp," later described by Gollum as a "young squeaker." I always took that to mean that this was an orc child. Edit: To elaborate a bit: it was during this struggle that Gollum dropped The Ring, which is why Bilbo came across it some ways away from Gollum's lake. It's entirely possible that this was The Ring's intention, seeking a new bearer now that Sauron had emerged in Dol Goldur. It was completely content with staying hidden for centuries while Sauron did the same, but now it made an attempt to get picked up by an orc instead, hoping that would make its way back to its master. And then it got picked up by another fucking hobbit. Eru might have played a part in that as well. Gandalf does state that Bilbo was meant to find The Ring, and he is closer to the Illuvatar than most.
Very true on all points, but what I would love to add to is the use of “goblin-imp”. As we’ve seen from the book itself later towards the end during the Battle of the Five Armies, the orcs and Azog are directly called “goblin”. I don’t know if this held for the War of the Ring period, but it definitely causes us to think. There never were goblins at all, it was just another name for orcs, just as in ancient days, the were called “Yrtch”. Its amazing how these small details can get lost except for people with the keen eye to see them.
When I played D & D years ago we made up our own rules about orc breeding, we figured they certainly had female orcs but their pregnancy often created twins or triplets in four and half months, half of the human time. We balanced it off this way because we decided that orcs only lived about forty years.
@@michellebrown4903Not inherently. (They are corrupted. It is undefined. It could be anything.) He was not talking about Tolkiens Orcs anyhow. I assume you can read, but this makes me doubt.
I see. These are D&D orcs, not LOTR orcs. And those rules you and your friends dreamed up--multiple births, short lifespans-made sense. I'd bet in both D&D world and the LOTR, orcs weren't meant to live long, anyway. Most would die in battle or some other violent manner.
@@TheKulu42 I agree, I really liked how Peter Jackson showed his orcs with the riveted head repair jobs and strange growths , I assumed most of these wounds were from fighting each other. Lol
It’s true you don’t see many orc women, in fact they are so alike in voice and appearance, they are often mistaken for orc men. And this, in turn, has given rise to the belief that there are no orc women, and that orcs just spring out of holes in the ground!
Orcs breed on their own, according to the Silmarillion, chapter 3 page 50. But it's also pretty clear Saruman was doing something to "manufacture" Uruk hai on the quick. So yes, I believe this is correct.
An army needs more than just soliders. You need people to move food, resources, and support items for the army. Lady orcs could have been smiths and other support roles for the army
This is probably where the truth of it lies. Orc females aren't going to be feminine and graceful like the female humans and elves. I'd say they are doing the simple but necessary dirty behind the scenes work, including many of them being repeatedly force bred in some kind of "breeding hive".
We know that there are slave orcs or "snagas" whose maintain the logistics around warrior orcs but I wouldn't think these would be female orcs. My best guest is that the females stays inside the pits and bear the offspring. But honestly Tolkien never really liked and cared the orcs that give a proper lore to them. They are the evil minions of the two Dark Lord.
I've always considered orc to just breed like humans and/or elves. That is based on orcs being described as being corrupted elves and/or mockeries of elves, on Bolg being Azog's son (which I chose to mean literally) and - although I've not known that letter so far, but it adds to my thinking - Tolkien himself apparently thinking of them as reproducing sexually. The Silmarilion text seems to support that, and with it being what Tolkien was working on when he died, it is propably closest to what can be called a definitive version of events, whereas other works, though published later, contain older or less-finished texts. Besides, the quote from the Fall of Gondolin could also (quite easily, too) be read metaphorically, meaning: Orcs are bred from the heat and slime of the earth, because that is where they live and breed. Their hearts are stone, because they're been corrupted into beings with little joy and even less capability for good.
Remember in the Hobbit where Gollum had caught a goblin imp, "How it squeaked! and then later said "When we came this way last, when we twisted that nassty young squeaker." he said while chasing after Bilbo? So Gollum killed and ate a goblin child. Imagine having a freaking couple of orcs for parents, be like my miserable bad tempered grandparents that my dad wouldn't let watch us.
Tolkien supposedly never intended the Silmarilion to be published. Christopher created it from a trunk full of notes JRR wrote to himself to cement his history. It was his personal bible of Middle Earth. And it seems that he sometimes/maybe often changed his mind about various things. I've read that serious changes were made in most of the reprints when Christopher found more pertinent notes in the chest. For instance I have one of the old green hardcovers that supposedly was the first US print. It has significant changes from the stuff I read in the online sources. In the end though Tolkien decided that orcs could not be tortured and twisted elves, for the simple reason that if an elf is tormented beyond his/her ability to bare; they simple release their spirit from their body and travel to the hall of Mandos. So if any elves got tormented and twisted; it was entirely by their own choice. Tolkien started re-writing things so men awakened much earlier so that they could be the ones tortured and twisted into orcs.
@@WickedPrince3D Unless there was something else done to them in that twisting...perhaps, initially, far more subtle but no less vile... We also know that there were half-orcs around that are mentioned other than the Uruk-hai...who were, potentially, altered further by Saruman there. And apparently half-trolls, which aren't given anything of an origin, but mentioned
@WickedPrince3D where did you get that? Tolkien tried to get the silmarillion published several times (or rather deals to get it published after he finished them), part of the reason he kept working on the same parts is they kept rejecting the story, so instead of expanding it he revised it.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 The Middle-Earth Compendium and every web-site I've ever seen says otherwise. It was never intended to be published - it was simply the "bible" he used to explain the cosmology of Middle-Earth. He kept changing parts of it constantly as new ideas came to him. There is a letter he wrote to a friend/pen-pal where he changed the origin of the Orcs for the fourth time for instance and that never actually made it into his notes - probably because he died before he could add it. He was changing pieces of it right up until his death.
I think it's somewhere in the middle. The orcish race was originally created by twisting captured elves. Those orcs reproduce the same as the other races.
It is unknown if the Orcs were immortal like the Elves. There is, in any case, a hint for a long lifespan in the story of two of the most famous Orc-chieftains: Azog and Bolg. Bolg, being the son Azog, was the chieftain of the Orcs who attacked Erebor in the Battle of Five Armies in T.A. 2941. Azog himself was killed in the Battle of Azanulbizar in T.A. 2799, so Bolg was at least 142 years old.
What if there is a difference between nobility and peasants for orcs, on this? The top orc can live a long life, almost like an elf. But the bottom-of-the-ladder orc is killed in a scrap for food long before that..
To my mind, the most interesting knowledge of Orcs comes from the conversation of Shagrat and Gorbag as Frodo is carried into the fortress. It is very illuminating. A sense of history, and of geopolitics. It is well worth re-reading.
I sort of remember a line in the books about the "maggot folk." That made me think the Orcs were kind of insectile, and Sauron could breed a lot of them quickly through them laying lots of eggs.
It was easy for Melkor to physically form the being's material body (hröa). For he, like the other Valar, had dominion over the material of Arda. What was important for him was to provide the soul (fëa), which is the metaphysical aspect of existence. He saw this in the elves too. This approach also fits with the concept of Tolkien's earlier drafts of the origins of orcs that they were created out of mockery of elves.
In the movies when I saw the Orcs being spawned in the ground in reminded me very much of the Warhammer Orks which are an advanced fungus based life form. From writings it is obvious that Tolkien Orcs, goblins, Urk-hai, have women. When you consider that when elves have children they don't have many of them and when they have more than one, they tend to wait until the first is completely adult (Feanor being always extra with his seven boys) A corruption of that is a creature that has children in litters and has them often like non stop. Yet still it take time for a creature to mature, unless you have dark arts at your command. And you need an Army Worthy of Mordor post haste. It can also be that Orc women have a very short gestation and give birth (like marsupials) to an under developed offspring that then need to grow further outside of the womb. In this case in a cocoon of mud and filth drawing nutrients straight form the earth. To also then with power be rapidly grown to full ripped adulthood, battle ready, complete with instinctual understanding of fighting tactics, weapons manufacture, the dark speak, common and whom they serve. Morgoth made the first goblins, even improved them a bit over time but they were always like the ones in Moria in the first film smallish and not much of a problem for elves of the first age unless Balrogs or Dragons were with them. Sauron Orcs though are larger, like Azog and Blog, tougher an improvement to the basic unit, still with many of the originals flaws though. The Sauruman Urk-hai a breed of Mordor Orcs and Goblin-men half breeds, the supposed ultimate form. Yet whenever these creatures are outside the influence of their masters such as the long periods in which Sauron was diminished they seem to continue on in a more normal fashion, have children, have sons, have daughter and have leaders among them like like the Goblin King etc. Yet when the power that created them returns even these Orc kings, know who they ultimately serve.
It can be more true: Warhammer fantasy at is start was very inspired by Lotr. The orc (and more acuratly 40k orks)where designed as mushroom organism very recently tho.
I always felt the Uruk'Hai "harvest" looked a lot like the Caminoans and their "200,000 units are ready, with a million more well on the way ". Maybe Hillfolk and Orcs provided the materials and Saruman worked his muddy steroid magic.
Although I believe the theory of orcs being twisted elves or possibly some other races is more consistent with Tolkien's writing, it is possible to interpret the "inner fire" not as the granting of "life" persay, but more as an "inner life" or "free will". It may be that Melkor was unable to give free will to its creatures, but instead created Orcs bearing only his own will, completely incapable of choice of their own. Given that Melkor didn't actually die but was rather banished into the void, and that Sauron and Saruman may be capable of the same feats, this theory would still be consistent.
Didn't Tolkien rule out the theory that Orcs were corrupted Elves? He said that Orcs share the Doom of Man, and since Morgoth can't change Dooms they can't be corrupted Elves.
@@earlofdoncaster5018No he didn't. In their origins they were captured Elves who were tortured and twisted by Morgoth. The big mystery is in the ages to come over thousands and thousands of years how the next generations of Orcs were bred into existence. Was is it through Morgoth's and later Sauron evil powers that enabled Orcs to continue to exist?, albeit with no free will of their own beyond the Dark Lord's commands. Or were there actual Orc females that procreated with Orc males to breed more and more Orcs, just like the Children Of Eru? That is what Tolkien never really settled on. He probably thought the idea of Orcs breeding with each other rather obhorrent.
I remember a video like this on your old channel from years ago. Thankfully, you've actually expanded from that old video and have made a much better one.
I'm glad you gave Tolkien's letter at the end. Since this is not the first time I have come across this discussion. I have always believed people over think this. Tolkien wasn't going to explain the birds and bees to the reader. The Orcs were monsters. If they even had a parent of note, he would mention it. But why would a reader need to know how the Ents cross pollinate?
I absolutely absolutely love the idea that they are reproduced by cuttings like starfish, or houseplants, but take a decade or more of feeding before they are ready to be released from their pod
Perhaps to unite all these theories: Melkor abducted Elves and Men and held them in his fortresses. Because Melkor poured so much of his power into Arda which lasted long after his exile into the void, the same power that defiled and poisoned the land would seep into the bodies of the captives and horribly corrupt and mutate them, like a cancer or virus that affected those who spent significant time in Melkor’s most poisoned grounds. From here, they would breed as normal Elves and Men would, the offspring being born with the same effects of the poison with them, who would then be further poisoned as they grew up in the poisoned land. This way, every captive would become subtly more orc-like throughout their lifetime. And their children would be born with these subtle orc traits, and change even further as they too grew up and lived a lifetime subjected to this corrupting influence. After a few generations, the cumulative poisoning would lead to being that eventually became the orc, having progressed from being originally Elves and Men.
Melkor didn’t just alter Arda from within, he also changed it from without during the initial music. Thus the seeds of evil could lie within Elves just as with Men, but require much more effort to release.
Dragon Age did answer this question but for their own lore. The darkspawn (orcs) kidnapped females (humans, elfs, dwarves and other races) and dragged them into the Deep Roads (basicly Moria with highways) and twisted them to become so called brood-mothers whos sole job is to shit out more darkspawn. Different kind of brood-mother gave you different kind of darkspawn (think orc and uruks).
I think orcs bred like other races but likely dark magics were used to allow them to mature faster. This being why they are able to grow in number so quickly.
Orcs as corrupted Children of Iluvatar always seemed the easiest answer to this question. A more difficult question is where did the dragons and trolls come from? My own theory is much as Shelob and the spiders of Mirkwood are the offspring of Ungoliant, dragons and trolls came from other Maiar in Morgoth's service.
@@gathenhielm9977 As I recall, trolls were made in mockery of ents, but weren't corrupted from them. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't initially intended to be part of the Legendarium but got attached to it by being a whimsical element in _The Hobbit_ so it's not surprising we don't have a detailed origin for them.
Dragons are corruptions created by Mogroth as a mockery of the great and noble flying creatures like the Great Eagles. They are literally oversized lizards. The first dragon(s) could not fly in fact. They were also known as great worms.
@@lmao7183 That was indeed the original conception, but later Tolkien decided only Eru could grant sentience, and I don't believe he ever stated how dragons came to be after he reached that decision.
They take captured elves and mutate them through magic to produce more orcs. Thats the most pure orc. The pure orc is then mutated again to produce a lesser version. This is where it gets bad as the more and more the mutation occurs, the worse they become in combat, intelligence, basically all functionality. Or so I was taught in Tolkien college.
After learning about all of Tolkiens writings on the subject of orcs I’ve always pretty much understood the “final” version to be that orcs were corrupted Elves and from there orcs were bred in the same manner as elves, men, and other beings reproduce, and that the orc women are essentially hidden from the everyone. Though with this version, I’ve wondered how quickly the reproduce. The orcs always seem to be in vast endless numbers so it makes me wonder if orcs breed in a manner such as the way ants or other insects do. Where the orc women would give birth on a massive scale like an ants nest or something. Perhaps orcs age quicker too making them ready for battle at a fast rate.
I'd wager Orcs were R selected. Meaning they probably pumped out a lot of offspring to offset their losses in all the wars they fought and just to ensure some orcs survived to adulthood given how brutal societies tended to be.
I believe I remember reading and an early printing of the Similarium where it was discussed that Melcore had taken early Pukel men and Warped and Twisted them into the Mockery of Elfs which was to explain why the Pukel men had a Deep And Absolutely Fanatical Hatred of the Orks not merely being content with hunting and killing them but Destroying them to the point that they were No longer recognizable as having ever been an actual living being!!! 🤔
Personally, for the movie scenes, where Uruk-hai are being pried out of their muddy cocoons, I like to think that was more of a "treatment". Orcs were shoved in there, exposed to magic, reagents, and Malice, and further changed/enhanced into Uruks. I don't think Orcs pop up out holes in the ground, anymore than Dwarves did, and this was Saruman trying to improve his weapons, as each wannabe Dark Lord did. Again, purely opinion. So, I do have a dumb question, and it can sort of link back to a couple others; how did we get MORE Orcs? To explain, accept whatever background you like for the origins of Orcs; they were broken, changed Elves, or Men, but those creatures would have existed in a finite number, from when they were first created, and fed into Morgoth's meat-grinder wars, to when Mordor fell, near the end of the Third Age. I totally accept that Orcs breed like we do; it can lead to various unpalatable eventualities, regarding how Orc women, and children, would be viewed, and used, but that's the process. Orcs are often seen, though, as somewhat inferior to the other races Illuvatar created; the "broken" quality of them,, and they usually made up for this with numbers. I guess I'm not sure if Orcs reach fighting size much faster than Men, and the heroes of the West were also butchering child soldiers, or if Orc females tended to give birth to something more like litters if children, but they are often notable for their quantity over quality theme. That's fine, but it brings me a problem; where are those many more souls from? Orcs had to come from somewhere, and mockeries though they may be, they are alive; they have a fea. I could ask where do these souls go when Orcs die, as I don't know that they go to the Halls of Mandos, and reincarnate; never escaping Morgoth's curse, but Morgoth only created so many. There were only so many Elves, or Men, and fewer that Melkor caught, and perverted, and many of those died. If Morgoth couldn't create life, or souls, which is fact, then where did all these other twisted fea come from? Did Eru just shrug, and take it upon Himself to fabricate them, as needed? Did He quietly "just as planned", since no one could actually do what Eruvdid not intend, and make sure they always rebounded, to be ready for the next push His preferred children would need? Are most Orcs supposed to be just truly soulless, and that's why it's never worrisome the number of them that is just put to the sword? I know it's morbid, and bleak, and it van be seen negatively to imply that Eru willingly played a part in all the bad, and suffering, in the world, too, but I'm curious. As Orcs die, and new ones are born to replace them, in numbers chilling to any who must face them, if they aren't just soulless flesh-puppets, then where do the many souls that give them life, and an evil will, come from...and where do they go when they die?
Why does no one seem to know or bring up the fact that the Orcs are also immortal as are Elves. The line "For the Orcs had life and and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Illuvatar" means because the Orcs were made from Elves they have the life of Elves. This is also made clear when Sam is following the Orcs in Shelobs Tunnel he over heard them talking about how they remember the good old days ( before the last alliance). Its quite clear ifbthey are made from Elves even though twisted and turned to evil their basic biology would remain the same and immortality be part of that.
Talking about watering bones and such: in the warhammer universe the orcs are more or less mushrooms. As soon as their spores land in the ground, orcs start growing from it. Maybe it is the same in Lord of the rings? - jokes aside, great video as always :D
I was always torn on this subject same as Tolkien, only with warhammer orks. On the one hand, naturally born orcs like in Tolkien world make them more intersting and tragic, as they all had to grow up, learn, and are not so different from other races. On the other hand, orks being born out of soil/spores very quickly is Just so fun and interesting. Can we get some poll to decide what most people think is better? Naturally born or created or grown like schrooms?
Orks spores need good soil to grow so on small planets orks are growing in numbers but in the overpopulated planets there is no population growth. The tyrania are much better than orks because they very fast adapting and there are many times wining. One modę thing there is many ways to aradicate the spore infection on planets after war with orks on planet but a tyranid invasion has many times permament changes on hole planets.
On that planting orc bones to grow new ones reminds me of another fantasy franchise called Warhammer, their orcs are basically fungi that basically spreads via spores that create entire ecosystems of orcoid creatures and plants to sustain their existence
I love how tolkiens changing views don‘t even contradict themselves his texts being basically historical texts they can have errors I think melkor breeding orcs from slime is like anglo-saxons writing in a chronicle that norsemen came upon them from the depths of hell… which is equally not to be taken literally
Got to admit I actually really like the idea of Orcs being grown kinda like plants, tho a bit wierd makes things less complicated for my own taste. Also would make sense has how you could have fairly large numbers quickly like Saruman did.
It took around 70 years for Saruman to build his army. He didn't just breed them either, many were recruited. I'd say the bulk of his orcs came from orc clans in the Misty Mountains that were swayed to be loyal to HIM instead of Sauron by his "voice magic". He also had many Dunlendings fighting for him. Saruman started building his army sometime around the events of "The Hobbit", it all didn't happen even remotely "quickly".
Unfortunately, many times discussions like these are done by literary scholars and not within the context of biology (or sci-fi speculative biology). So like, people will ask, “are there orc women?” but the only thing they can conceive of are orc women as placental mammals. I like to picture orcs as basically amphibians reproductively - they spawn, meaning the female lays a batch of eggs which the male fertilizes separately (this is different for different species but many fish, and some amphibians, have separate fertilization). This takes the “maggot-men” description literally. Conceptually, this would result in orcs having no parental ties, and as such they would have no residual tenderness from such care. Also, unlike humans who can reproduce any time of the year, many egg-laying creatures only do so once a year, which would explain why orcs don’t seem to have any type of sexual drive. It would also explain why there don’t seem to be orc women - there are, but they’re almost indistinguishable from male orcs like male and female salamanders are almost indistinguishable. Gothmog from the movie was female in my head cannon. Lastly, in a grisly way, I like the idea of an orc “nursery” being a pit of recently hatched eggs that the attendant tosses a human prisoner into every now and again to feed them.
Gothmog is a boys name, we know this because it's also the name of a male Bulrog. And they probably reproduce like mammals because they can breed with humans which would require compatible breeding biology.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 it’s a gender neutral name like Ashley or Cassidy. I knew a boy named Gothmog in junior high but a girl named Gothmog in high school. Also, not sure if Balrogs are male or female in any meaningful sense in their later depictions. Crossbreeding must have had magical impetus because only very powerful beings caused there to be crosses between orcs and humans. Besides that, the biological side of it could have consisted of male humans ejaculating onto orc eggs, resulting in Uruk-Hai larva.
Twisting them from Elves makes sense. Also maybe a clue could be gained from Sauron being the Necromancer of Dol Guldur hinting that they may have been Elves fallen in battle and repurposed by Sauron and Melkor into Orcs we know.
That's what I'd thought. Not that they were undead but that they were fallen elves that were brought back to life and corrupted in the process. Once alive, maybe they could reproduce, but I don't see how Saruman could raise an army of age appropriate uruks so quickly for attacking Rohan if they weren't created as adults.
@@RalphRoberts1It took Saruman 70 or so years to build his army and I'd say the bulk of them would have been recruits from clans in the Misty Mountains.
@waynepurcell6058 it's been like 16 years since I've read the books. Didn't Saruman cross breed them, and where were they being hidden cause when Gandalf went to Isengard he didn't see thousands of orcs that had been there for decades? 70 years is a long time to hide an army you're not supposed to be friendly with.
@@RalphRoberts1 Saruman wasn't far from the Misty Mountains so I'd suppose the just had most of his army hide in the caves of the mountains until he was discovered to be a traitor.
When it comes to the relationship between Azog and Bolg, referencing to it as father and son would imply that Orcs reproduce sexually. The Orcs wouldn't refer to Bolg as "son" if that were a biologically foreign concept to them. And I doubt they have the sentimentality to use a human term like that.
I theorize the mud cocoons were used to grow the Uruk-hai to fighting age, not to birth them per se. And Sauron had his own branch of Uruk-hai in Mordor.
Orcs and Dwarves seem to have similar appearances regarding male and female. Possibly Elves too. They are all potentially androgynous in appearance imho. There is no way female orcs were not warriors also LOL
Elves don't have similar appearances when male or female. Dwarves have beards male and female but can still be distinguished. Having no differences between male and female would be against Tolkien's vision because he is catholic and conservative.
here's an idea that could apply in films and games: to get around the rules of Eru, orcs can be made with the remains of prior orcs and creatures, including dragons' teeth (like Spartoi in Greek myth). With curses from the necromantic arts of Morgoth and Sauron, sorcery can be used to create large groups of orcs from pits. The rules of Eru are subverted because they aren't created beings, but corruptions and necromantic creatures possessed by evil spirits. Sauron had the ability to remove and replace the spirit in a body, and could place an evil spirit into an abomination to animate it
I don’t get why this is such an issue. I always assumed orcs reproduce sexually and, once I read the books and letters, that assumption was confirmed. It was only recently, after I started following channels like this, that I found out people debate over how orcs multiply.
Don't recall anything about them breeding sexually in the books tbh, but it's been a few decades now lol. Seem to recall I like one of the early notions that the Orks were early elves captured and twisted over the years. This made sense, as Morpeth couldn't create anything, only corrupt, as he lacked the Flame Imperishable
The films confused things. I was confused as in the films you see no female orcs and the orcs are sort of spawned out of the ground. However I thought the books implied orcs were more natural creatures which made me think there must be female orcs and they must breed.
@@stuartburns8657 That quote from the silmarillion, about orcs multiplying in the fashion of elves, is right at the beginning of the book. Also it seemed to me that, whenever the characters spoke about orc lineage/reproduction, there was nothing different or special about it, which led me to conclude they do the same way everyone does.
@@luizappicanco Agree, thats my head cannon version anyway. I didnt mind TTT birthing pits from the film, but the amount he's able to create in a relatively short number of years didnt sit well. Middle earth would have been overwhelmed lol
Honestly…I always wondered if Goblin Slayer kind of got it right, captives were used to breed them and the reproductive cycle was just ridiculously fast, which explained how they could mass an army that quickly
I am put in mind of the appendix concerning the Druedain where they and the orcs regarded each other as renegades. Perhaps the orcs where created by forcible cross breeding of Drug with elf? And perhaps other species as well?
It's a haunting/disturbing metal image to think of two Orc's getting kinky with each other, and if it was filmed, it'd be the worst sextape ever found. Lol. Thank God they don't have that technology in the "Lord of the Rings" world. No-one needs to see that.😆
Tolkien could have just said, "They kidnapped Female Elves and commit nonconsensual deeds" and that's how they multiplied. In ancient times for example The Spartans would invade some small tribe, kill all the men and elders and take the women as slaves or to sell. I think in this case, I would assume in Mordor probably had dungeons with Female Elves and Female humans and use them for reproduction purposes. That would be my assumption.
I think morgoths experimentation and sadism used all kinds of methods on the poor elves, men and maybe dwarves. From beast cross breeding, torture through sorcery, and necromancy i think he tried everything in his power to create new life but couldnt so he ruined them beyond recognition in spite. Orcs seem to vary greatly in size and also seem to live long lives so i think theyre a hybrid of everything morgoth captured and twisted, including women.
I think that deep in the bowels of every orc stronghold there is an enormous, bloated orc queen, who is constantly getting a train run on her by the lads.
The movie's "hatching" was so clearly blasphemous I don't know why you waffle on that point. Literally nothing made up by Peter Jackson matters to the truth. He did it for visual impact, the same reason he exaggerated the ugliness of the orcs.
Tolkien realized with his story of the creation of the Dwarves that the Vala could not create living things. If Aule' couldn't give his dwarves life, then Melkor could not give the Orcs life. They had to be created by twisting something that already existed. My personal theory combines two of Tolkien's ideas: first that they were created from animals; and second (which he decided much later so it never got into his Silmarillion notes) was that they were created from twisted men. Originally Sauron was in service to Aule' the craft-master. I assume Sauron's specialty was in how to alloy different metals together - this fits with him giving the Elven craftsman advice on what metals and gems to use to craft the Three. Also; Tolkien realized that they couldn't have been created from twisted and tortured elves; because elves have the ability to give up their spirit if they can't stand to live. Their spirit then goes to the halls of Mandos just as any other spirit no longer in it's living body. So my conjecture is that they were created by "alloying" men and animals. This would explain the diversity Frodo and Sam encountered in Mordor; with many being larger than men, and others as small as hobbits. Their sub-type depended on the animal species used in their creation. Melkor couldn't create life; but maybe he could manipulate it by interbreeding men and animals. In The Fellowship it's mentioned that Saruman seemed to be breeding men and orcs; such as the ugly fellow who curiously watched the group leave Bree. So in this Tolkien himself tells us that orcs can breed if they can interbreed with humans.That and what you said of Saruman breeding humans and orcs.
This video was great fun for me. Thank you. In my own works Orcs were created in the "dim times before reckoning", just as the Elves, Dwarves, and Humans were. My Orcs breed naturally. The females are "homebodies" and tend to the home and the young. My Orcs, by the time of the tales collectively known as "The Erdani Saga" {Pronounced, Air dah nee}, have developed a society that is similar in complexity with those other races. They even have one known capital city (being described as such within the narrative). In my tales readers will see the another side to the Orcs. Not just the soldier side, but that they do indeed think about their home and families. Some of them even taking time, during breaks in warfare, to go home for a visit.
I suspect it's a little of both and more. Orcs were originally corrupted from elves with later mannish additions. There would be various breeds, some which went feral after Morgoth fell and were redomesticated by Sauron, and special upgrades like supersteroids or the Captain America serum which probably required cocoons/chrysales. Saruman himself likely made his own serums to produce his type of urukhai. It's possible as well that Morgoth and Sauron put some of their own essence into the orcs/goblins which is why they diminished in numbers after each fall.
I say that the larger Orcs like Azog, Lurtz and the Uruk-hai were the products of dark and torturous power like how the cenobites are made in Hellraiser and eugenics
I never really thought about the reproduction of orcs or goblins or Uruks or any of the nasties in Tolkien’s world. But did find it interesting & informative and entertaining. Thanks
Since Morgoth (and Sauron) cannot truly create life, my assumption has been that quite a bit of their power went into cranking out more Orcs in much the same way Aule created the original Dwarves. But once they were both gone, there was no power to generate more Orcs. This is why the Orcs eventually disappear from Middle Earth in the Fourth and later Ages rather than remaining as an opposing race against Men.
There is a statement (I believe in The Hobbit) where Tolkien wrote that the distant descendants of the orcs are still around TODAY. They are the people that are of "foul speech" and such. Probably modern mouthy trouble causers and criminals.
I lean towards the theory that there are Orc women, and that they breed in the regular way as other races, as the Orcs are most likely just corrupted elves. Going back to the point of Azog and Bolg, and the Peter Jackson Hobbit Trilogy: While in the movies Azog was the main antagonist Orc, in the books, his "son" Bolg was the one to chase after Thorin & Co. since Dain Ironfoot had killed Azog many years before during the war of the Dwarves and Orcs. I don't know why Peter Jackson decided to make the supposed-to-be-dead Azog the bad guy, but whatever. In the Lord of the Rings Online, (which isnt really canon but neither are the movies really so have at thee, im just drawing comparisons) when you help the dwarves reclaim Moria, the main enemy is an orc called Mazog, who claims to be the grandson of Azog. Given that LotRO takes place during (and currently after) the War of the Ring, the timeline would have been roughly long enough (by human standards at least) for Azog to have a grand-orc. This, for me, helps solidify the theory that orcs breed normally and sometimes hierarchies in orc clans can be inherited.
when you mentioned the idea of orcs being grown from the ground by planting bones in the ground, it reminded me of how, in greek mythology, when you plant dragon's theeth on the soil, warriors will sprout, armed, armored, and ready for battle.
If I recall correctly, the TTRPG detailed the breeding pits of mordor, where female orcs were kept for breeding. Also, I am pretty sure that Saruman bred half orks, while Uruk Hai were made by sauron to be able to function as superior orcs, who could operate in full daylight without issue, just like Olog Hai are the war trolls that don't turn to stone in the sun.
Morgoth: MAKE MORE ORCS orc: I dont make orcs. Morgoth: THEN WHO MAKES ORCS orc: orcs make orcs Morgoth: EXPLAIN HOW orc: well when a daddy orc and mommy orc love each other very much Morgoth: YES, GO ON orc: well then the daddy orc-
Before watching this i wanted to share my perspective i had as a 10 years old (20 years ago). In the beginning orcs was made from corrupted elves but after a while they where made from reincarnating (grown) dead elves. The corrupted elves looks much different and lived longer then orcs and was able to reproduce compared to the reincarnated ones, Sauron used his mastery over magic to create/form the Uruk-hais.
I think I got it, the theory of them being "grown" it does go with the theory that elves are converted through means of torture and mutilation, maybe the Pod is like a digestion sack, a stomach. As far as the question of all the half-breeds and such, maybe it's like how if you breed a horse and a donkey, you get a mule but mules can't breed or a liger I guess LOL thanks for the video I never thought about the whole male-female thing so that was some good production showing that spanning shot of all the different Orcs in that next scene because it totally changes the perspective that I've never thought of personally and I've read the books
Being ex military one thing I found curious was Tolkien never addressed supply and logistics. Did the orc farm or build houses? Hard to feed yourself living in a cave.
The cocoons we see in the films make sense if you think of them as some sort of incubator. Maybe once the orc/uruk hai babies are born, they are put into these mud cocoons that make them grow faster so they're ready for war sooner. The mud would also probably be enchanted by Saruman to speed up growth.
Orcs were marsupials and they’d lay a foetus and the Joey orc would crawl into a pouch. Then when it was big enough it’d be discarded into a nursery pool of other Joeys, the pool being filled with blood, offal and Orc draught to give them the nutrients to grow into big bad Orcs.
I prefer to broaden the definition of creating life - for example I don't see how Saruman was able to create 10,000 uruk hai so quickly without growing them like in the films. Had he spent decades breeding them I find it highly unlikely noone noticed for so long. I imagine through whatever process he still needed genetic material (even if it's blood and bone) of Illuvitars creation for it to work. I also see the orcs as reproducing "naturally". Both together helps cement the idea that the enemy can rebuild quickly but is limited by resources. Just how I view it, could entirely be wrong
The vast underground construction project in Saruman’s stronghold around Orthanc speaks to decades of secret plotting. Don’t forget that Saruman had magically enhanced powers of rhetoric, which would help him persuade or daunt anyone who might otherwise blow his cover
I believe that "orks" is an umbrella term. Corrupted Noldor to human-like to goblins, bestial and semi-sapient. Hobbit-sized to giant. A great diversity of not just tribes, but species that can't cross-breed with each other, but some of them can with human or elves. Some of them who don't have souls being created easily by Morgoth, Sauron and Saruman. Some of them being created as a sentinent species by Melkor back in his full powers alike dwarves by Aule and Ents by Yavanna. Some of them being basically tolkienian elves but with a twist. It also means a lot of variety in their battle capabilities.
@@Merecir so are mud orcs created by Morgoth after he lost his ability to properly create, or by one of the maiar (Sauron/Saruman), being somewhere between robots and animals. Basically, they're mud, distorted by dark magic, and, as mud contains plenty of microorganisms, sometimes mice/worms and organic material, formed into the like of a life form. This doesn't require the ability to create life or use full-on souls, because soil is already alive...
Since the Orcs were specifically created for war, they might have a similar societal structure to the Spartans. While the Spartan men were away on campaign, the women would stay behind and handle the day to day running of society.
Mis info. Sauron bred uruks too, way before sarumon. His uruks originally took osgiliath. Just that sarumon were considered perfected for his needs. Walking in sunlight and such
I always thought that Orcs were captured Elves forcibly corrupted by the pits they were spawned from. Uruk hai being human variants that were turned the same way. Based on the film with Saruman I figured he had talked to the more corrupt people that he had sent to pillage the lands of Rohan. Promising them great reward for their dedication. A good chunk of them willingly being thrown into the spawning pits to be changed in hopes for greater things.
There's definitely Orc women. I've been in relatonships with several of them.
😂😂😂
Video proof / only fans or it never happened
Badum! Tss!
Same time or sequentially?
I once woke up next to one, and as she was sleeping on my arm, had to gnaw it off at the shoulder rather than risk awaking her.
Breeding wasn't really central to Tolkien's mythos, just as food production and economies were just peripherals to his world. His mother, after his father's death, was financially supported by the Church. He was essentially a suburban Catholic boy from an Edwardian background who went to a cataclysmic war; after the war he stayed in academia for the rest of his life. Where the income came from was always at a distance. He wrote about what he knew, learning, honour and death.
Pretty sure food production is alluded to in the books, it simply took place on the opposite side of the map from the good races and behind enemy strongholds. Particularly in LoTR and Sauron with the production taking place in the East beyond Mordor where most of his human followers came from. There was no literary reason to mention this infrastructure as the story wasn’t about a war of attrition where the good guys needed to destroy supplies and supply lines. Lastly, orcs willingly eat each other and their enemies so usually have a good supply of meat on hand.
It's Jackson who ignores the need for food, as there's virtually no farmland anywhere in his version of Middle Earth, or in fact anything other than cities with narrow strips of wilderness between. Tolkien describes plenty of farmland though, and store of provisions being laid up against sieges, and even water depots being left on the Morgul plane where there is no natural water.
The one area where he's consistently implausible is in population expansion and trade though. The idea of all these disconnected communities and good wild land that no one's trying to move into is pretty unbelievable considering there are humans in his story. I mean it's free real estate.
Nurnen is specifically where they grow most of the food in Mordor, either via slave labor (Human, Uruk, or otherwise.) or just straight up Uruk Farmers.@@knotengajin7359
@@tSp289 agrarian people only move into virgin territory when they are compelled to do so by overpopulation, famine or despotism. Breaking land is extremely difficult. Read the early accounts of the English at Jamestown if you want to be bummed out for a day.
I don't know what the total fertility rate was for the women of Middle Earth. But I assume the infant mortality rate and average lifespan were similar to medieval Europe. They might have had a stable population that didn't require much pioneering.
Having said that, I seem to remember a bit in the hobbit about stout hearted woodsmen settling virgin territory south of mirkwood. But I can't remember the exact quote
"Tolkein didnt know what reproduction was"
Morgoth: "When a mommy Orc and a daddy orc really love each other...."
💀
😂
No.
They adopt from Saruman
“They kill each other”.
I feel a little sorry for them in truth. If it was ruined elves….
"Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Orc Sex But Were Afraid to Ask"
"what to expect when youre expecting an orc!"
Orcs only lol
Easy: The stOrc brings little orcs.
And a stOrk brings baby Orks? 🤔
Best comment 🏆
You need prayers😂😂
Remember Treebeard said, “trolls were made in mockery of Ents as Orcs were of Elves“ so that would imply there are female trolls as well. Since there were Ent-wives. Though somehow I imagine Ents reproducing via seed and fruit and not so much trolls
Weren't the ents dying out?
Also, there being a sex division among ents doesnt preclude that they multiplied like trees. This would explain why the Ent-wives lived separately - there would be no need for direct contact.
@@M-CH_ I mean they could try huorn
Entwives are implied to still be alive and Ents don't seem to age by years. The younger ones certainly have hope.
Bro the nets can try huorns
I wonder if a huorn equivalent exists for Entwives. Maybe awakened from an old orchard?
The exact origin and 'reproductive habits' of Tolkien's orcs is one of my favourite mysteries from the world he created and one that I think is best left unexplained.
Just kill some elves. ..bury them ...force dark energy into their bodies ...wash rinse repeat .
@mattparker1078 ya I think so
They probably pull a goblin slayer and rape women of other races to make them which fits the dark fantasy setting.
Nah. They had babies the same way everyone else has babies. No need to overthink it.
@csh7119 OK what does that mean? How do these orcs do family?
In The Hobbit Gollum is said to have killed and eaten a "small goblin-imp," later described by Gollum as a "young squeaker." I always took that to mean that this was an orc child.
Edit: To elaborate a bit: it was during this struggle that Gollum dropped The Ring, which is why Bilbo came across it some ways away from Gollum's lake. It's entirely possible that this was The Ring's intention, seeking a new bearer now that Sauron had emerged in Dol Goldur.
It was completely content with staying hidden for centuries while Sauron did the same, but now it made an attempt to get picked up by an orc instead, hoping that would make its way back to its master.
And then it got picked up by another fucking hobbit.
Eru might have played a part in that as well. Gandalf does state that Bilbo was meant to find The Ring, and he is closer to the Illuvatar than most.
Is it a scene or in the book?
@@rayrivera59 In the book.
I agree. I also have long-held that thought. The ring itself was always the most dangerous villain in my eye
Very true on all points, but what I would love to add to is the use of “goblin-imp”. As we’ve seen from the book itself later towards the end during the Battle of the Five Armies, the orcs and Azog are directly called “goblin”. I don’t know if this held for the War of the Ring period, but it definitely causes us to think. There never were goblins at all, it was just another name for orcs, just as in ancient days, the were called “Yrtch”. Its amazing how these small details can get lost except for people with the keen eye to see them.
"Another fucking hobbit" 😂
When I played D & D years ago we made up our own rules about orc breeding, we figured they certainly had female orcs but their pregnancy often created twins or triplets in four and half months, half of the human time. We balanced it off this way because we decided that orcs only lived about forty years.
Er ....where did you get that? Orcs were corrupted elves, and therefore had the lifespan of the Noldor .
@@michellebrown4903that means immortal
@@michellebrown4903Not inherently. (They are corrupted. It is undefined. It could be anything.) He was not talking about Tolkiens Orcs anyhow. I assume you can read, but this makes me doubt.
I see. These are D&D orcs, not LOTR orcs. And those rules you and your friends dreamed up--multiple births, short lifespans-made sense. I'd bet in both D&D world and the LOTR, orcs weren't meant to live long, anyway. Most would die in battle or some other violent manner.
@@TheKulu42 I agree, I really liked how Peter Jackson showed his orcs with the riveted head repair jobs and strange growths , I assumed most of these wounds were from fighting each other. Lol
It’s true you don’t see many orc women, in fact they are so alike in voice and appearance, they are often mistaken for orc men. And this, in turn, has given rise to the belief that there are no orc women, and that orcs just spring out of holes in the ground!
Orcs are both naturally bred AND "cloned", depending on need
(^^^) Kinda my take
I like that the most
Orcs breed on their own, according to the Silmarillion, chapter 3 page 50. But it's also pretty clear Saruman was doing something to "manufacture" Uruk hai on the quick. So yes, I believe this is correct.
@@fruitiusmaximus925 He probably throws water on them and feeds them after midnight...
*If you know, you know
😁👍
@@jmmartin7766 i was around for the 80's and gremlins... But pretty sure it was more involved AND more disgusting, hence the omission of the details.
An army needs more than just soliders. You need people to move food, resources, and support items for the army. Lady orcs could have been smiths and other support roles for the army
Orcs used slaves for logistical support. Maybe for other things......
"Lady" being a bit euphemistic . . . .
This is probably where the truth of it lies. Orc females aren't going to be feminine and graceful like the female humans and elves. I'd say they are doing the simple but necessary dirty behind the scenes work, including many of them being repeatedly force bred in some kind of "breeding hive".
@@JohnMinehan-lx9ts Maybe the orc women are just as ugly as the orc men so everyone just assumes there are no orc women?
We know that there are slave orcs or "snagas" whose maintain the logistics around warrior orcs but I wouldn't think these would be female orcs. My best guest is that the females stays inside the pits and bear the offspring.
But honestly Tolkien never really liked and cared the orcs that give a proper lore to them. They are the evil minions of the two Dark Lord.
I've always considered orc to just breed like humans and/or elves.
That is based on orcs being described as being corrupted elves and/or mockeries of elves, on Bolg being Azog's son (which I chose to mean literally) and - although I've not known that letter so far, but it adds to my thinking - Tolkien himself apparently thinking of them as reproducing sexually.
The Silmarilion text seems to support that, and with it being what Tolkien was working on when he died, it is propably closest to what can be called a definitive version of events, whereas other works, though published later, contain older or less-finished texts.
Besides, the quote from the Fall of Gondolin could also (quite easily, too) be read metaphorically, meaning: Orcs are bred from the heat and slime of the earth, because that is where they live and breed. Their hearts are stone, because they're been corrupted into beings with little joy and even less capability for good.
Remember in the Hobbit where Gollum had caught a goblin imp, "How it squeaked! and then later said "When we came this way last, when we twisted that nassty young squeaker." he said while chasing after Bilbo? So Gollum killed and ate a goblin child. Imagine having a freaking couple of orcs for parents, be like my miserable bad tempered grandparents that my dad wouldn't let watch us.
Tolkien supposedly never intended the Silmarilion to be published. Christopher created it from a trunk full of notes JRR wrote to himself to cement his history. It was his personal bible of Middle Earth. And it seems that he sometimes/maybe often changed his mind about various things. I've read that serious changes were made in most of the reprints when Christopher found more pertinent notes in the chest. For instance I have one of the old green hardcovers that supposedly was the first US print. It has significant changes from the stuff I read in the online sources. In the end though Tolkien decided that orcs could not be tortured and twisted elves, for the simple reason that if an elf is tormented beyond his/her ability to bare; they simple release their spirit from their body and travel to the hall of Mandos. So if any elves got tormented and twisted; it was entirely by their own choice. Tolkien started re-writing things so men awakened much earlier so that they could be the ones tortured and twisted into orcs.
@@WickedPrince3D Unless there was something else done to them in that twisting...perhaps, initially, far more subtle but no less vile...
We also know that there were half-orcs around that are mentioned other than the Uruk-hai...who were, potentially, altered further by Saruman there.
And apparently half-trolls, which aren't given anything of an origin, but mentioned
@WickedPrince3D where did you get that? Tolkien tried to get the silmarillion published several times (or rather deals to get it published after he finished them), part of the reason he kept working on the same parts is they kept rejecting the story, so instead of expanding it he revised it.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 The Middle-Earth Compendium and every web-site I've ever seen says otherwise. It was never intended to be published - it was simply the "bible" he used to explain the cosmology of Middle-Earth. He kept changing parts of it constantly as new ideas came to him. There is a letter he wrote to a friend/pen-pal where he changed the origin of the Orcs for the fourth time for instance and that never actually made it into his notes - probably because he died before he could add it. He was changing pieces of it right up until his death.
I think it's somewhere in the middle. The orcish race was originally created by twisting captured elves. Those orcs reproduce the same as the other races.
yea, I find this the most plausible too.
It is unknown if the Orcs were immortal like the Elves. There is, in any case, a hint for a long lifespan in the story of two of the most famous Orc-chieftains: Azog and Bolg. Bolg, being the son Azog, was the chieftain of the Orcs who attacked Erebor in the Battle of Five Armies in T.A. 2941. Azog himself was killed in the Battle of Azanulbizar in T.A. 2799, so Bolg was at least 142 years old.
What if there is a difference between nobility and peasants for orcs, on this? The top orc can live a long life, almost like an elf. But the bottom-of-the-ladder orc is killed in a scrap for food long before that..
and the Great Goblin recognizing Gondolinian swords by sight about 6000-7000 years after Gondolin has fallen...
To my mind, the most interesting knowledge of Orcs comes from the conversation of Shagrat and Gorbag as Frodo is carried into the fortress. It is very illuminating. A sense of history, and of geopolitics. It is well worth re-reading.
@Chociewitka considering said gondolin swords were found far from gondolin it's likely they were used much more recently too
I don't think orcs being immortal really matter. Their lives are so violent that they die from that.
I sort of remember a line in the books about the "maggot folk." That made me think the Orcs were kind of insectile, and Sauron could breed a lot of them quickly through them laying lots of eggs.
Thank you for another amazing video man, always good to see your work
It was easy for Melkor to physically form the being's material body (hröa). For he, like the other Valar, had dominion over the material of Arda. What was important for him was to provide the soul (fëa), which is the metaphysical aspect of existence. He saw this in the elves too. This approach also fits with the concept of Tolkien's earlier drafts of the origins of orcs that they were created out of mockery of elves.
In the movies when I saw the Orcs being spawned in the ground in reminded me very much of the Warhammer Orks which are an advanced fungus based life form. From writings it is obvious that Tolkien Orcs, goblins, Urk-hai, have women. When you consider that when elves have children they don't have many of them and when they have more than one, they tend to wait until the first is completely adult (Feanor being always extra with his seven boys) A corruption of that is a creature that has children in litters and has them often like non stop. Yet still it take time for a creature to mature, unless you have dark arts at your command. And you need an Army Worthy of Mordor post haste. It can also be that Orc women have a very short gestation and give birth (like marsupials) to an under developed offspring that then need to grow further outside of the womb. In this case in a cocoon of mud and filth drawing nutrients straight form the earth. To also then with power be rapidly grown to full ripped adulthood, battle ready, complete with instinctual understanding of fighting tactics, weapons manufacture, the dark speak, common and whom they serve.
Morgoth made the first goblins, even improved them a bit over time but they were always like the ones in Moria in the first film smallish and not much of a problem for elves of the first age unless Balrogs or Dragons were with them. Sauron Orcs though are larger, like Azog and Blog, tougher an improvement to the basic unit, still with many of the originals flaws though. The Sauruman Urk-hai a breed of Mordor Orcs and Goblin-men half breeds, the supposed ultimate form. Yet whenever these creatures are outside the influence of their masters such as the long periods in which Sauron was diminished they seem to continue on in a more normal fashion, have children, have sons, have daughter and have leaders among them like like the Goblin King etc. Yet when the power that created them returns even these Orc kings, know who they ultimately serve.
Waaagh!!!
Green iz best. Orks iz green so Orks iz best!
It can be more true: Warhammer fantasy at is start was very inspired by Lotr. The orc (and more acuratly 40k orks)where designed as mushroom organism very recently tho.
I always felt the Uruk'Hai "harvest" looked a lot like the Caminoans and their "200,000 units are ready, with a million more well on the way ". Maybe Hillfolk and Orcs provided the materials and Saruman worked his muddy steroid magic.
Although I believe the theory of orcs being twisted elves or possibly some other races is more consistent with Tolkien's writing, it is possible to interpret the "inner fire" not as the granting of "life" persay, but more as an "inner life" or "free will".
It may be that Melkor was unable to give free will to its creatures, but instead created Orcs bearing only his own will, completely incapable of choice of their own. Given that Melkor didn't actually die but was rather banished into the void, and that Sauron and Saruman may be capable of the same feats, this theory would still be consistent.
A parallel is Aule creation of the Dwarves. Eru adopted them and gave them life. It’s worth reading that passage!
Didn't Tolkien rule out the theory that Orcs were corrupted Elves? He said that Orcs share the Doom of Man, and since Morgoth can't change Dooms they can't be corrupted Elves.
@@earlofdoncaster5018No he didn't. In their origins they were captured Elves who were tortured and twisted by Morgoth. The big mystery is in the ages to come over thousands and thousands of years how the next generations of Orcs were bred into existence. Was is it through Morgoth's and later Sauron evil powers that enabled Orcs to continue to exist?, albeit with no free will of their own beyond the Dark Lord's commands. Or were there actual Orc females that procreated with Orc males to breed more and more Orcs, just like the Children Of Eru? That is what Tolkien never really settled on. He probably thought the idea of Orcs breeding with each other rather obhorrent.
@@earlofdoncaster5018 so they would have to be corrupted Men 🤔
@@meeduohNot necessarily. Orcs could have been created as part of discordant part of the Music of the Ainur.
what about Gollum having recently eaten a "Goblin Imp" - i.e. a youngling Orc?
I think goblins were just a different technique used by Melkor to have smarter orcs. Either way, they both hate Melkor.
I remember a video like this on your old channel from years ago. Thankfully, you've actually expanded from that old video and have made a much better one.
I'm glad you gave Tolkien's letter at the end. Since this is not the first time I have come across this discussion. I have always believed people over think this. Tolkien wasn't going to explain the birds and bees to the reader. The Orcs were monsters. If they even had a parent of note, he would mention it. But why would a reader need to know how the Ents cross pollinate?
I think people are just interested because it is sort of a very big final mystery.
Thank you for crediting artists when using their art!
I think Warhammer had the perfect answer to Orc breeding, They're just mushrooms that grow, and when an orc bleed, his blood becomes new mushrooms...
They definitely have orc babies from orc families
"Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys"😂
I absolutely absolutely love the idea that they are reproduced by cuttings like starfish, or houseplants, but take a decade or more of feeding before they are ready to be released from their pod
Perhaps to unite all these theories: Melkor abducted Elves and Men and held them in his fortresses.
Because Melkor poured so much of his power into Arda which lasted long after his exile into the void, the same power that defiled and poisoned the land would seep into the bodies of the captives and horribly corrupt and mutate them, like a cancer or virus that affected those who spent significant time in Melkor’s most poisoned grounds.
From here, they would breed as normal Elves and Men would, the offspring being born with the same effects of the poison with them, who would then be further poisoned as they grew up in the poisoned land.
This way, every captive would become subtly more orc-like throughout their lifetime. And their children would be born with these subtle orc traits, and change even further as they too grew up and lived a lifetime subjected to this corrupting influence.
After a few generations, the cumulative poisoning would lead to being that eventually became the orc, having progressed from being originally Elves and Men.
Melkor didn’t just alter Arda from within, he also changed it from without during the initial music. Thus the seeds of evil could lie within Elves just as with Men, but require much more effort to release.
This is probably the most practical theory
Fantastic video! I was blown away by the image a 5:21! It was AMAZING!
Dragon Age did answer this question but for their own lore. The darkspawn (orcs) kidnapped females (humans, elfs, dwarves and other races) and dragged them into the Deep Roads (basicly Moria with highways) and twisted them to become so called brood-mothers whos sole job is to shit out more darkspawn. Different kind of brood-mother gave you different kind of darkspawn (think orc and uruks).
It's funny I stumbled upon this comment. I'm playing DA now while listening and hadn't heard of it back when this video came out.
I think orcs bred like other races but likely dark magics were used to allow them to mature faster. This being why they are able to grow in number so quickly.
"How do Orcs breed?"
Talk about something that I do not want to visualize in my mind!
Just think of 40k Orks, they breed through spores!
Definitely makes me like the 40k explanation for orks since they're literally an aggressive fungus
Orcs as corrupted Children of Iluvatar always seemed the easiest answer to this question. A more difficult question is where did the dragons and trolls come from? My own theory is much as Shelob and the spiders of Mirkwood are the offspring of Ungoliant, dragons and trolls came from other Maiar in Morgoth's service.
I know I've read somewhere that trolls are corrupted ents, but I have no idea if it's actually canon.
@@gathenhielm9977 As I recall, trolls were made in mockery of ents, but weren't corrupted from them. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't initially intended to be part of the Legendarium but got attached to it by being a whimsical element in _The Hobbit_ so it's not surprising we don't have a detailed origin for them.
Dragons are corruptions created by Mogroth as a mockery of the great and noble flying creatures like the Great Eagles. They are literally oversized lizards. The first dragon(s) could not fly in fact. They were also known as great worms.
@@lmao7183 That was indeed the original conception, but later Tolkien decided only Eru could grant sentience, and I don't believe he ever stated how dragons came to be after he reached that decision.
They take captured elves and mutate them through magic to produce more orcs. Thats the most pure orc. The pure orc is then mutated again to produce a lesser version. This is where it gets bad as the more and more the mutation occurs, the worse they become in combat, intelligence, basically all functionality. Or so I was taught in Tolkien college.
Lurtz was Peter Jackson giving female orcs screen time. Thank you Peter.
What
Nope
After learning about all of Tolkiens writings on the subject of orcs I’ve always pretty much understood the “final” version to be that orcs were corrupted Elves and from there orcs were bred in the same manner as elves, men, and other beings reproduce, and that the orc women are essentially hidden from the everyone. Though with this version, I’ve wondered how quickly the reproduce. The orcs always seem to be in vast endless numbers so it makes me wonder if orcs breed in a manner such as the way ants or other insects do. Where the orc women would give birth on a massive scale like an ants nest or something. Perhaps orcs age quicker too making them ready for battle at a fast rate.
I'd wager Orcs were R selected. Meaning they probably pumped out a lot of offspring to offset their losses in all the wars they fought and just to ensure some orcs survived to adulthood given how brutal societies tended to be.
I believe I remember reading and an early printing of the Similarium where it was discussed that Melcore had taken early Pukel men and Warped and Twisted them into the Mockery of Elfs which was to explain why the Pukel men had a Deep And Absolutely Fanatical Hatred of the Orks not merely being content with hunting and killing them but Destroying them to the point that they were No longer recognizable as having ever been an actual living being!!! 🤔
Personally, for the movie scenes, where Uruk-hai are being pried out of their muddy cocoons, I like to think that was more of a "treatment". Orcs were shoved in there, exposed to magic, reagents, and Malice, and further changed/enhanced into Uruks. I don't think Orcs pop up out holes in the ground, anymore than Dwarves did, and this was Saruman trying to improve his weapons, as each wannabe Dark Lord did. Again, purely opinion.
So, I do have a dumb question, and it can sort of link back to a couple others; how did we get MORE Orcs? To explain, accept whatever background you like for the origins of Orcs; they were broken, changed Elves, or Men, but those creatures would have existed in a finite number, from when they were first created, and fed into Morgoth's meat-grinder wars, to when Mordor fell, near the end of the Third Age. I totally accept that Orcs breed like we do; it can lead to various unpalatable eventualities, regarding how Orc women, and children, would be viewed, and used, but that's the process. Orcs are often seen, though, as somewhat inferior to the other races Illuvatar created; the "broken" quality of them,, and they usually made up for this with numbers. I guess I'm not sure if Orcs reach fighting size much faster than Men, and the heroes of the West were also butchering child soldiers, or if Orc females tended to give birth to something more like litters if children, but they are often notable for their quantity over quality theme. That's fine, but it brings me a problem; where are those many more souls from? Orcs had to come from somewhere, and mockeries though they may be, they are alive; they have a fea. I could ask where do these souls go when Orcs die, as I don't know that they go to the Halls of Mandos, and reincarnate; never escaping Morgoth's curse, but Morgoth only created so many. There were only so many Elves, or Men, and fewer that Melkor caught, and perverted, and many of those died. If Morgoth couldn't create life, or souls, which is fact, then where did all these other twisted fea come from? Did Eru just shrug, and take it upon Himself to fabricate them, as needed? Did He quietly "just as planned", since no one could actually do what Eruvdid not intend, and make sure they always rebounded, to be ready for the next push His preferred children would need? Are most Orcs supposed to be just truly soulless, and that's why it's never worrisome the number of them that is just put to the sword?
I know it's morbid, and bleak, and it van be seen negatively to imply that Eru willingly played a part in all the bad, and suffering, in the world, too, but I'm curious. As Orcs die, and new ones are born to replace them, in numbers chilling to any who must face them, if they aren't just soulless flesh-puppets, then where do the many souls that give them life, and an evil will, come from...and where do they go when they die?
Why does no one seem to know or bring up the fact that the Orcs are also immortal as are Elves. The line "For the Orcs had life and and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Illuvatar" means because the Orcs were made from Elves they have the life of Elves. This is also made clear when Sam is following the Orcs in Shelobs Tunnel he over heard them talking about how they remember the good old days ( before the last alliance). Its quite clear ifbthey are made from Elves even though twisted and turned to evil their basic biology would remain the same and immortality be part of that.
Talking about watering bones and such: in the warhammer universe the orcs are more or less mushrooms. As soon as their spores land in the ground, orcs start growing from it. Maybe it is the same in Lord of the rings? - jokes aside, great video as always :D
I was always torn on this subject same as Tolkien, only with warhammer orks.
On the one hand, naturally born orcs like in Tolkien world make them more intersting and tragic, as they all had to grow up, learn, and are not so different from other races.
On the other hand, orks being born out of soil/spores very quickly is Just so fun and interesting.
Can we get some poll to decide what most people think is better? Naturally born or created or grown like schrooms?
Never liked the 40k Ork spore thing. They should be more numerous than tyranids lol
@@stuartburns8657 Maybe much of the Spore land wrong place and prevent to grow but it just game theory
@@tiglishnobody8750 lol. Maybe. Love me some orks!
Glad to hear@@stuartburns8657
Orks spores need good soil to grow so on small planets orks are growing in numbers but in the overpopulated planets there is no population growth. The tyrania are much better than orks because they very fast adapting and there are many times wining. One modę thing there is many ways to aradicate the spore infection on planets after war with orks on planet but a tyranid invasion has many times permament changes on hole planets.
On that planting orc bones to grow new ones reminds me of another fantasy franchise called Warhammer, their orcs are basically fungi that basically spreads via spores that create entire ecosystems of orcoid creatures and plants to sustain their existence
Just came here after rings of power season 2 orc baby scene😂
I love how tolkiens changing views don‘t even contradict themselves
his texts being basically historical texts they can have errors
I think melkor breeding orcs from slime is like anglo-saxons writing in a chronicle that norsemen came upon them from the depths of hell… which is equally not to be taken literally
Very interesting topic! Thank you for this Video 🥰 I really like Orcs, I already have 2 tattoos of them
In LoTR role said in the orcs description that there were a majority of male orcs 2 out 3.
Got to admit I actually really like the idea of Orcs being grown kinda like plants, tho a bit wierd makes things less complicated for my own taste. Also would make sense has how you could have fairly large numbers quickly like Saruman did.
It took around 70 years for Saruman to build his army. He didn't just breed them either, many were recruited. I'd say the bulk of his orcs came from orc clans in the Misty Mountains that were swayed to be loyal to HIM instead of Sauron by his "voice magic". He also had many Dunlendings fighting for him. Saruman started building his army sometime around the events of "The Hobbit", it all didn't happen even remotely "quickly".
Unfortunately, many times discussions like these are done by literary scholars and not within the context of biology (or sci-fi speculative biology). So like, people will ask, “are there orc women?” but the only thing they can conceive of are orc women as placental mammals.
I like to picture orcs as basically amphibians reproductively - they spawn, meaning the female lays a batch of eggs which the male fertilizes separately (this is different for different species but many fish, and some amphibians, have separate fertilization). This takes the “maggot-men” description literally.
Conceptually, this would result in orcs having no parental ties, and as such they would have no residual tenderness from such care. Also, unlike humans who can reproduce any time of the year, many egg-laying creatures only do so once a year, which would explain why orcs don’t seem to have any type of sexual drive. It would also explain why there don’t seem to be orc women - there are, but they’re almost indistinguishable from male orcs like male and female salamanders are almost indistinguishable. Gothmog from the movie was female in my head cannon.
Lastly, in a grisly way, I like the idea of an orc “nursery” being a pit of recently hatched eggs that the attendant tosses a human prisoner into every now and again to feed them.
Gothmog is a boys name, we know this because it's also the name of a male Bulrog.
And they probably reproduce like mammals because they can breed with humans which would require compatible breeding biology.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 it’s a gender neutral name like Ashley or Cassidy. I knew a boy named Gothmog in junior high but a girl named Gothmog in high school. Also, not sure if Balrogs are male or female in any meaningful sense in their later depictions.
Crossbreeding must have had magical impetus because only very powerful beings caused there to be crosses between orcs and humans. Besides that, the biological side of it could have consisted of male humans ejaculating onto orc eggs, resulting in Uruk-Hai larva.
Twisting them from Elves makes sense. Also maybe a clue could be gained from Sauron being the Necromancer of Dol Guldur hinting that they may have been Elves fallen in battle and repurposed by Sauron and Melkor into Orcs we know.
That's what I'd thought. Not that they were undead but that they were fallen elves that were brought back to life and corrupted in the process. Once alive, maybe they could reproduce, but I don't see how Saruman could raise an army of age appropriate uruks so quickly for attacking Rohan if they weren't created as adults.
@@RalphRoberts1It took Saruman 70 or so years to build his army and I'd say the bulk of them would have been recruits from clans in the Misty Mountains.
@waynepurcell6058 it's been like 16 years since I've read the books. Didn't Saruman cross breed them, and where were they being hidden cause when Gandalf went to Isengard he didn't see thousands of orcs that had been there for decades? 70 years is a long time to hide an army you're not supposed to be friendly with.
@@RalphRoberts1 Saruman wasn't far from the Misty Mountains so I'd suppose the just had most of his army hide in the caves of the mountains until he was discovered to be a traitor.
When it comes to the relationship between Azog and Bolg, referencing to it as father and son would imply that Orcs reproduce sexually. The Orcs wouldn't refer to Bolg as "son" if that were a biologically foreign concept to them. And I doubt they have the sentimentality to use a human term like that.
“ Sounds like orc mischief to me ! “ 🌳
Rule 34. Next question.
I theorize the mud cocoons were used to grow the Uruk-hai to fighting age, not to birth them per se. And Sauron had his own branch of Uruk-hai in Mordor.
Orcs and Dwarves seem to have similar appearances regarding male and female. Possibly Elves too. They are all potentially androgynous in appearance imho. There is no way female orcs were not warriors also LOL
Elves don't have similar appearances when male or female. Dwarves have beards male and female but can still be distinguished. Having no differences between male and female would be against Tolkien's vision because he is catholic and conservative.
Nice work dude thanks
The same way we do. Simple.
I cannot be more specific for UA-cam would ban me, 🤭🤭🤭
here's an idea that could apply in films and games: to get around the rules of Eru, orcs can be made with the remains of prior orcs and creatures, including dragons' teeth (like Spartoi in Greek myth). With curses from the necromantic arts of Morgoth and Sauron, sorcery can be used to create large groups of orcs from pits. The rules of Eru are subverted because they aren't created beings, but corruptions and necromantic creatures possessed by evil spirits. Sauron had the ability to remove and replace the spirit in a body, and could place an evil spirit into an abomination to animate it
I don’t get why this is such an issue. I always assumed orcs reproduce sexually and, once I read the books and letters, that assumption was confirmed. It was only recently, after I started following channels like this, that I found out people debate over how orcs multiply.
Don't recall anything about them breeding sexually in the books tbh, but it's been a few decades now lol.
Seem to recall I like one of the early notions that the Orks were early elves captured and twisted over the years.
This made sense, as Morpeth couldn't create anything, only corrupt, as he lacked the Flame Imperishable
yeah i agree its pretty straight forward, i think it was just the movies that confused things a little.
The films confused things. I was confused as in the films you see no female orcs and the orcs are sort of spawned out of the ground.
However I thought the books implied orcs were more natural creatures which made me think there must be female orcs and they must breed.
@@stuartburns8657 That quote from the silmarillion, about orcs multiplying in the fashion of elves, is right at the beginning of the book. Also it seemed to me that, whenever the characters spoke about orc lineage/reproduction, there was nothing different or special about it, which led me to conclude they do the same way everyone does.
@@luizappicanco Agree, thats my head cannon version anyway.
I didnt mind TTT birthing pits from the film, but the amount he's able to create in a relatively short number of years didnt sit well.
Middle earth would have been overwhelmed lol
Thanks for the video guys!
Honestly…I always wondered if Goblin Slayer kind of got it right, captives were used to breed them and the reproductive cycle was just ridiculously fast, which explained how they could mass an army that quickly
I am put in mind of the appendix concerning the Druedain where they and the orcs regarded each other as renegades. Perhaps the orcs where created by forcible cross breeding of Drug with elf? And perhaps other species as well?
It's a haunting/disturbing metal image to think of two Orc's getting kinky with each other, and if it was filmed, it'd be the worst sextape ever found. Lol. Thank God they don't have that technology in the "Lord of the Rings" world. No-one needs to see that.😆
* Mental image.👍
Video 265
Tolkien could have just said, "They kidnapped Female Elves and commit nonconsensual deeds" and that's how they multiplied.
In ancient times for example The Spartans would invade some small tribe, kill all the men and elders and take the women as slaves or to sell. I think in this case, I would assume in Mordor probably had dungeons with Female Elves and Female humans and use them for reproduction purposes. That would be my assumption.
First the Russians have to find a female
I think morgoths experimentation and sadism used all kinds of methods on the poor elves, men and maybe dwarves. From beast cross breeding, torture through sorcery, and necromancy i think he tried everything in his power to create new life but couldnt so he ruined them beyond recognition in spite. Orcs seem to vary greatly in size and also seem to live long lives so i think theyre a hybrid of everything morgoth captured and twisted, including women.
I think that deep in the bowels of every orc stronghold there is an enormous, bloated orc queen, who is constantly getting a train run on her by the lads.
All of the theories are wonderful. I would be happy with any of them.
The movie's "hatching" was so clearly blasphemous I don't know why you waffle on that point. Literally nothing made up by Peter Jackson matters to the truth. He did it for visual impact, the same reason he exaggerated the ugliness of the orcs.
Images with credits to the artists... This video is a masterpiece at every level!
hmmm I wonder why this got recomended to me? Did a new show come out and people who call themselves "fans" are butthurt?
Tolkien realized with his story of the creation of the Dwarves that the Vala could not create living things. If Aule' couldn't give his dwarves life, then Melkor could not give the Orcs life. They had to be created by twisting something that already existed. My personal theory combines two of Tolkien's ideas: first that they were created from animals; and second (which he decided much later so it never got into his Silmarillion notes) was that they were created from twisted men. Originally Sauron was in service to Aule' the craft-master. I assume Sauron's specialty was in how to alloy different metals together - this fits with him giving the Elven craftsman advice on what metals and gems to use to craft the Three. Also; Tolkien realized that they couldn't have been created from twisted and tortured elves; because elves have the ability to give up their spirit if they can't stand to live. Their spirit then goes to the halls of Mandos just as any other spirit no longer in it's living body. So my conjecture is that they were created by "alloying" men and animals. This would explain the diversity Frodo and Sam encountered in Mordor; with many being larger than men, and others as small as hobbits. Their sub-type depended on the animal species used in their creation. Melkor couldn't create life; but maybe he could manipulate it by interbreeding men and animals. In The Fellowship it's mentioned that Saruman seemed to be breeding men and orcs; such as the ugly fellow who curiously watched the group leave Bree. So in this Tolkien himself tells us that orcs can breed if they can interbreed with humans.That and what you said of Saruman breeding humans and orcs.
And now people are mad about them having families despite Tolkiens comments on them lmfao
One possibility is they lay eggs in host bodies. Similar to xenomorphs or the Gorn.
So when that Orc says 'Yeah, Why can't we have some meat?" Hilarious!
There's quite a few of them in Seattle and Portland. I've seen 'em!
This video was great fun for me. Thank you. In my own works Orcs were created in the "dim times before reckoning", just as the Elves, Dwarves, and Humans were. My Orcs breed naturally. The females are "homebodies" and tend to the home and the young. My Orcs, by the time of the tales collectively known as "The Erdani Saga" {Pronounced, Air dah nee}, have developed a society that is similar in complexity with those other races. They even have one known capital city (being described as such within the narrative). In my tales readers will see the another side to the Orcs. Not just the soldier side, but that they do indeed think about their home and families. Some of them even taking time, during breaks in warfare, to go home for a visit.
I suspect it's a little of both and more.
Orcs were originally corrupted from elves with later mannish additions.
There would be various breeds, some which went feral after Morgoth fell and were redomesticated by Sauron, and special upgrades like supersteroids or the Captain America serum which probably required cocoons/chrysales.
Saruman himself likely made his own serums to produce his type of urukhai.
It's possible as well that Morgoth and Sauron put some of their own essence into the orcs/goblins which is why they diminished in numbers after each fall.
I say that the larger Orcs like Azog, Lurtz and the Uruk-hai were the products of dark and torturous power like how the cenobites are made in Hellraiser and eugenics
I never really thought about the reproduction of orcs or goblins or Uruks or any of the nasties in Tolkien’s world. But did find it interesting & informative and entertaining. Thanks
I always thought they were like daisies, popping out of the ground.
Since Morgoth (and Sauron) cannot truly create life, my assumption has been that quite a bit of their power went into cranking out more Orcs in much the same way Aule created the original Dwarves. But once they were both gone, there was no power to generate more Orcs. This is why the Orcs eventually disappear from Middle Earth in the Fourth and later Ages rather than remaining as an opposing race against Men.
There is a statement (I believe in The Hobbit) where Tolkien wrote that the distant descendants of the orcs are still around TODAY. They are the people that are of "foul speech" and such. Probably modern mouthy trouble causers and criminals.
I lean towards the theory that there are Orc women, and that they breed in the regular way as other races, as the Orcs are most likely just corrupted elves. Going back to the point of Azog and Bolg, and the Peter Jackson Hobbit Trilogy: While in the movies Azog was the main antagonist Orc, in the books, his "son" Bolg was the one to chase after Thorin & Co. since Dain Ironfoot had killed Azog many years before during the war of the Dwarves and Orcs. I don't know why Peter Jackson decided to make the supposed-to-be-dead Azog the bad guy, but whatever. In the Lord of the Rings Online, (which isnt really canon but neither are the movies really so have at thee, im just drawing comparisons) when you help the dwarves reclaim Moria, the main enemy is an orc called Mazog, who claims to be the grandson of Azog. Given that LotRO takes place during (and currently after) the War of the Ring, the timeline would have been roughly long enough (by human standards at least) for Azog to have a grand-orc. This, for me, helps solidify the theory that orcs breed normally and sometimes hierarchies in orc clans can be inherited.
when you mentioned the idea of orcs being grown from the ground by planting bones in the ground, it reminded me of how, in greek mythology, when you plant dragon's theeth on the soil, warriors will sprout, armed, armored, and ready for battle.
If I recall correctly, the TTRPG detailed the breeding pits of mordor, where female orcs were kept for breeding. Also, I am pretty sure that Saruman bred half orks, while Uruk Hai were made by sauron to be able to function as superior orcs, who could operate in full daylight without issue, just like Olog Hai are the war trolls that don't turn to stone in the sun.
Morgoth: MAKE MORE ORCS
orc: I dont make orcs.
Morgoth: THEN WHO MAKES ORCS
orc: orcs make orcs
Morgoth: EXPLAIN HOW
orc: well when a daddy orc and mommy orc love each other very much
Morgoth: YES, GO ON
orc: well then the daddy orc-
Good analysis - well done
Before watching this i wanted to share my perspective i had as a 10 years old (20 years ago). In the beginning orcs was made from corrupted elves but after a while they where made from reincarnating (grown) dead elves. The corrupted elves looks much different and lived longer then orcs and was able to reproduce compared to the reincarnated ones, Sauron used his mastery over magic to create/form the Uruk-hais.
I think I got it, the theory of them being "grown" it does go with the theory that elves are converted through means of torture and mutilation, maybe the Pod is like a digestion sack, a stomach. As far as the question of all the half-breeds and such, maybe it's like how if you breed a horse and a donkey, you get a mule but mules can't breed or a liger I guess LOL thanks for the video I never thought about the whole male-female thing so that was some good production showing that spanning shot of all the different Orcs in that next scene because it totally changes the perspective that I've never thought of personally and I've read the books
Yeah, you can sometimes impregnate a female mule-rare but it happens-but never a male mule
@@rosesweetcharlotte well it's not going to stop me from trying
Being ex military one thing I found curious was Tolkien never addressed supply and logistics. Did the orc farm or build houses? Hard to feed yourself living in a cave.
The cocoons we see in the films make sense if you think of them as some sort of incubator. Maybe once the orc/uruk hai babies are born, they are put into these mud cocoons that make them grow faster so they're ready for war sooner. The mud would also probably be enchanted by Saruman to speed up growth.
Orcs were marsupials and they’d lay a foetus and the Joey orc would crawl into a pouch. Then when it was big enough it’d be discarded into a nursery pool of other Joeys, the pool being filled with blood, offal and Orc draught to give them the nutrients to grow into big bad Orcs.
I prefer to broaden the definition of creating life - for example I don't see how Saruman was able to create 10,000 uruk hai so quickly without growing them like in the films. Had he spent decades breeding them I find it highly unlikely noone noticed for so long. I imagine through whatever process he still needed genetic material (even if it's blood and bone) of Illuvitars creation for it to work.
I also see the orcs as reproducing "naturally". Both together helps cement the idea that the enemy can rebuild quickly but is limited by resources. Just how I view it, could entirely be wrong
The vast underground construction project in Saruman’s stronghold around Orthanc speaks to decades of secret plotting. Don’t forget that Saruman had magically enhanced powers of rhetoric, which would help him persuade or daunt anyone who might otherwise blow his cover
@@bchearneI mean I'm behind that, I'm just trying to work around the elephant in the room of orcs mating with humans
I believe that "orks" is an umbrella term. Corrupted Noldor to human-like to goblins, bestial and semi-sapient. Hobbit-sized to giant. A great diversity of not just tribes, but species that can't cross-breed with each other, but some of them can with human or elves. Some of them who don't have souls being created easily by Morgoth, Sauron and Saruman. Some of them being created as a sentinent species by Melkor back in his full powers alike dwarves by Aule and Ents by Yavanna. Some of them being basically tolkienian elves but with a twist. It also means a lot of variety in their battle capabilities.
This makes the most sense to me. Especially since you sort of never know quite what they even look like
Dwarves were like robots before Iluvatar gave them proper life.
@@Merecir so are mud orcs created by Morgoth after he lost his ability to properly create, or by one of the maiar (Sauron/Saruman), being somewhere between robots and animals.
Basically, they're mud, distorted by dark magic, and, as mud contains plenty of microorganisms, sometimes mice/worms and organic material, formed into the like of a life form.
This doesn't require the ability to create life or use full-on souls, because soil is already alive...
Since the Orcs were specifically created for war, they might have a similar societal structure to the Spartans. While the Spartan men were away on campaign, the women would stay behind and handle the day to day running of society.
And also slaves. Lots of slaves.
What about the mention by Gollum's of "goblin imps"?
Mis info. Sauron bred uruks too, way before sarumon. His uruks originally took osgiliath. Just that sarumon were considered perfected for his needs. Walking in sunlight and such
I always thought that Orcs were captured Elves forcibly corrupted by the pits they were spawned from.
Uruk hai being human variants that were turned the same way. Based on the film with Saruman I figured he had talked to the more corrupt people that he had sent to pillage the lands of Rohan. Promising them great reward for their dedication. A good chunk of them willingly being thrown into the spawning pits to be changed in hopes for greater things.
I have this memory of watching the films when I was really little and thinking this was what had happened
Where theres a whip, theres a way.