ICYMI: check out my interview with Oscar-winning writer of LOTR, Philippa Boyens! We chat about the NEW LOTR film: War of the Rohirrim! Philippa Boyens talks War of the Rohirrim! First chat with writers of new LOTR film! ua-cam.com/video/0hDQFo32WE0/v-deo.html
What are your thoughts on the “What if Boromir lived “ scenario? Boromir is injured but survives Amon Hen, joins the three hunters in their pursuit of merry and Pippin. I know it’s probably not something Tolkien considered, like the Gollum repenting video, but I think it could make a cool video regardless. How might Boromir change the rest of the story? How is Faramir’s meeting with Frodo and Sam different? How does Denathor change in the siege of Minas Tirith now that he isn’t as fractured by Boromir’s death? Does he survive at that point? How does Denathor react to Boromir being in favor of Aragorn becoming king? I could go on, but I think it could make a very interesting and fun video!
I did watch! It was fun. I hope it is a good movie. I had some trepidations for the insinuation at 1:04:17 in that video. I hope they can just stick to the Tolkien written work. If they want to play with their own ideas, thats cool, that is writing, but if they want to adapt someone elses work, they need to do it faithfully. Or make their own.
I have my thought as to how the Orcs came to be which stem largely from Tolkien's established lore. Part of it is inspired by a famous game Dragon Age, in which creator David Gaider created Darkspawn as an inspiration after Tolkien's ors. In my version Melkor as you stated at the beginning and the end, Melkor did capture those unfortunate elves and by using his vile sorcery and power through torture, and corruption turned these elves… Especially elven women into beings whose only purpose was to birth orcs. And since Saruman crossbreed orcs with men, it does to me make sense. What do you think about it…
I understand your argument. Unfortunately, it comes from the movie..... It's a Jackson contribution..... The fight happens, but "meat is back on the menu." Isn't said 😕.
@@knines4280 Even if it had been in the book, LotR takes place like 7000+ years after the fall of Morgoth, right? And we're explicitly shown that Saruman's Orcs were mingled with Men. Even Mordor Orcs mingled with Men more than any Morgoth Orcs had. This video literally describes how the Uruk-hai are part Man. Why *wouldn't* an Uruk know what a menu is?
This is really interesting how his catholic theology affected his views of the orcs. Catholics typically reject the Calvinist views of predestination. A Calvinist wouldn’t have much conflict with the idea of some souls being destined for destruction and not redemption/salvation. Catholics typically reject that and believe all souls have potential for redemption/salvation. It’s cool to see how it plays into the story.
I think the Calvinist view is a little misrepresented in this respect (so that what you have said is best understood by hyper-Calvinist). The creature having Fea can surely be likened to the image of God in theology. As such, it's ordaination is distinct. Such, the "vessel made for destruction", is not up to Melkor and his actions but to Eru himself. And the Orcs are not intrinsically cut off from "salvation", whatever that fundamentally means in Tolkien's Middle Earth. This is why I (from the a Calvinist view) have always had trouble with the orcs origin. Also... Main stream Catholicism is pretty close to Calvinism in regard to ordination. It's really only Jesuit Molonism that made the big difference.
@@benjaminagnew5361 Great discussion! I agree that Eru would be the driving force behind destiny in that world. It could be that the elves that failed to respond to the call of the valar were destined by Eru to become the orcs and become vessels for his wrath and destruction. I believe there is strong support for double predestination in the bible and early church fathers (Augustine seemed to endorse double predestination even thought some catholic and orthodox theologians disagree). My background is as a reformed confessional Anglican. I lean in favor of four of the five points of Calvinism. I am not sure I believe in limited atonement but the others have strong arguments in scripture.
@@ErnestMaupin-j7d I ask this with a genuine desire to seek what could be said to be the Truth of God: Where, in any of Augustine's works, did he even implicitly aver the concept of double predestination? As a pitiful scholar of pre-8th-century Patristics, I have not read any Church Father who held that one's eternal damnation was outside of their control. Theodoret can be questionable, Origen can be off on certain points (bless him), and until the censured Gottschalk of Orbais in the 800s (I believe) do we see such a teaching take hold of the "rudibus", or "uninstructed"-as termed by Augustine and Martin of Braga. Either way, would you point me to the work wherein I could find such a claim? Even in his Retractiones, I've found nothing that could point to such an idea. Thank you, dear friend.
@@ErnestMaupin-j7d Augustine isn’t really early Church, he’s post council of Nicaea. And he was the inlet for much satanic doctrine into what became Catholicism (as distinct from pure Christianity).
It may not be exactly canon, but one of the most visually evocative sequences in the LOTR trilogy is the birth of the first Uruk-hai in Fellowship of the Ring. He comes out of the mud-pits below Isengard, and his birth entails pulling away a membrane that makes the vile pit seem rather like a grotesque parody of a womb. It's so effective for how it thoroughly deprives the Orcs of any sympathy. Because Saruman is an industrialist, this Uruk-hai birthing scene gives the impression that his Orcs are not so much bred as manufactured, just as surely as are his weapons and machinery. (It's similarly effective to see Orcs being birthed in Two Towers intercut with scenes of industrial activity and Saruman's voice-over about it). As I said, I'm not sure how canon it is; I'm told that since Orcs are bred from Elves and/or Men, they reproduce sexually just like those natural species. It's true, you don't see many Orc women, but that shouldn't necessarily give rise to the belief that there are no Orc women, and that Orcs just spring out of holes in the ground.
@@SeraphimCramer Probably. Perhaps female Orcs are even conscripted into Sauron's forces; Orc women may well have fought viciously at Minas Tirith alongside their male counterparts. Or, barring that, an "Orc-owyn," if you will, could have secretly joined the ranks out of a fervent desire to fight for Sauron.
Regardless of how they were created, one thing is for certain: they are one of the most tragic races in fantasy. Created by a dark lord for the sole purpose of destruction and killing, with no chance of ever being anything else. Evil they might be, but it's not like they were ever given a choice.
Couldn’t the same be said of Melkor? Eru made him to be the way that he is. If Melkor is evil incarnate, wouldn’t the one responsible for his creation be equally evil?
I feel like the idea of orcs as animals kind of clashes with that conversation in Two Towers they have, where they show a desire for freedom and independence. They still cling to their wicked ways, wishing to live off raiding, stealing and murdering, but if they really were just animals following their masters every command, they probably wouldn't care to have their own like that. I like the idea they're corrupted elves, deeply wounded by what Morgoth did to them, but not so deeply they can't be made whole again after their soul goes to Valinor. Tolkien kept going back and forth his whole life about whether they could be redeemed and the idea that they will be in the Halls of Mandos, I feel, fit well with the themes set forth in the books. But as with everything else not written in the four books he personally published, it's really just a theory at best and hearing what everyone else thinks is super interesting too.
Agreed! The idea of their having an impotent _fea_ seems to make the most sense. The orcs rarely seem so bestial that they are cannot think about what others are thinking, nor do they seem wholly dependent on “the big bosses.” There is a _there_ there, but it seems permanently stunted in orcs as a whole.
I completely agree, also because I love those parts of the books, when you see that even orcs are beings with their own desires. It makes the story all the more compelling, if the bad guys are actually people their evil deeds are all the more vile, because they are willingly committing them.
At the end of the day I think it might be a little of both arguments. The first few generations may have those elvish souls but with each generation those Fea might dimnish more and more and more until there is none and by the time of the second song the orcs may be nothing but the animals they are desribed as
11:12 I've always thought this for the longest time as well. What better way to mock Eru then by 1)corrupting the body of his Firstborn 2)removing/destroying the one thing Melkor can't create/control 3)putting them through misery without any promise of things ever getting better All done to tell Eru "I can't make my own creations, but I have no problem and no issue with remaking yours in my image. One way or the other I will get my way"
Where, then, would the souls go? Melkor would not have the power to destroy a soul, any more than he had the power to create a soul. Did the souls fly to the Halls of Mandos along with those of the deceased? I most agree with the theory that Melkor’s evil was able to suppress/strangle the souls of Elves and Men so that they could only feel horror and suffering while their bodies and minds became enslaved as Orcs. A plausible (due to Melkor’s and Sauron’s enormous power) and also a truly horrifying idea.
@@12classics39 But this is even dumber. If so, soul is not needed for smart, civilized beings, meaning it's completely superfluous and Morgoth could just create orks without souls and called it a day. No, Tolkien just marred his books trying to cram idiotic contradictory nonsense made up by bored stone age goat herders 2000 years ago, all while knowing he can't ram square peg into round hole. Either soul is not needed or Morgoth could create, Tolkien is twisting trying to answer question 'can Aule create stone too heavy for him to lift'...
@@12classics39 Interestingly, your second paragraph summarizes the final stages of demonic possession, which makes it all the more plausible as it could be yet another echo of Catholic theology from Tolkien.
@@12classics39 There were 2 possibilities described in the video, right? 1. Driven out completely, the implication being they would go to the Halls of Mandos as all other Eldar fëa go. 2. They're driven down within the being itself to the point of being wholly impotent within themselves. Not driven out of the body, but rather driven down to a depth it cannot come back from. In this case, the assumption would, again, be that the fëa goes to the Halls of Mandos, as they're still Elven fëa. I would assume that Orc fëa would either never return, as those like Glorfindel did, being too damaged. Or they would just require so much more time than a normal fëa that the Dagor Dagorlad is more likely to come first.
I swear every time I see a new video I think to myself "man he must be running out of topics". And every time I am completely humbled by how amazing these videos are. Great job.
I think Morgoth corrupting elves into orcs makes more sense lore wise. By the time Sauron was building up power for himself, he most likely used humans to turn into Orcs since there weren't that many Elves in the 2nd and 3rd Age. There's also a possibility that other fallen Maia who were in league with Morgoth could have taken the form of an orc but looked more demonic and beastly than your typical average orc, which could explain why some of the orcs that resided in Goblin Town could have been the offspring of those orcs given their description of their features in The Hobbit.
Loved that you did this. These races and the big bad of Middle Earth all have interesting in universe origins but thats primarily because all of them had interesting out of universe origins too.
Look into the 1000s of stories of Sasquatch encounters- and encounters with The Wolfmen and others that do live in our earth and come out through caves. Militaries around the planet battle them from time to time. And their are The 12-15 foot Org like giants. Them creatures are known still to eat humans. And many stories of In the name of Jesus- people have stoped the attack. The Narnia stories get into that story pretty well❤
I could be wrong, but I believe that in Morgoth’s Ring there is an essay where Tolkien suggests that orcs were descendants of lesser maiar’s who, perhaps after taking monstrous forms, mated with beasts (possibly wolves). Implying that orcs were created after a long and brutal process of breeding and interbreeding with animals, then elves and then men.
My head canon is that Morgoth corupted chimps into orcs. Entertain this idea: - chimps are similar in appearance to Elves - chimps are naturaly agressive so Morgoth's power only enhanced it - chimps are inteligent so he enhanced sligthly their inteligece and gave them abillity to speak I don't think that any kind of ape or monkey was ever mentioned in Tolkien's writing but keep in mind that, in universe, books are writen by people and scholars from Westernlands of Middle Earth and apes would live around Far Harad or somewhere else in the south. I think it's a fun idea that I wanted to share. Sorry for bad english, it's not my first language
"Hundreds of long ladders were lifted up. Many were cast down in ruin, but many more replaced them, and Orcs sprang up them like apes in the dark forests of the South." -Helms Deep, The Two Towers
@@Eowyn3Pride yeah that makes a lot of sense. only thing is that Treebeard explicitly states it as canon rather than us speculating or even 4th wall commentary from Tolkein
Anyone else now have a mental image of a special wing in the house of Mandos where the broken souls go like some sort of mental ward filled with soft rooms? "It's going to be okay, you're okay; no one can hurt you in here"
This just makes me want to cry, because if we're going with the belief that Orcs are imprison, tortured and corrupted elves, then their soul/Fae would still remain as it was, an Eldar's Fae, and so when in the first age an Orc is slain their soul would go to the halls of Mandos and would have to live with the memories and pain they've endured an deblt for the rest of their immortal lives.
Loved this. I understand why it's so hard to explain the origin of Orcs. In Tolkien's own faith humans are more like Orcs than Men: we were like Elves in not knowing evil nor being corrupted by the Evil One/Great Deceiver. Now we all are and our spirit (Faea) can shrivel to impotence (quenched!) with repeat evil deeds/thoughts/desires/etc. And without Divine Intervention/a Savior we will remain orcish because our own spirits lack the power to change our bodies for Good. That's what Orcs don't have in Arda: Divine Intervention. It begs the question for me if Orc Faea get a 2nd chance (because they were literally born evil) by Mandos allowing them to be reincarnated. 🤔
0:15, Tolkien has his own Character bubble. I just had a funny Idea: The Travels of Tolkien. It could be a video dedicated to the life of J.R.R Tolkien and it could be structured similarly to other travel videos, however, it’s about Tolkien and his life.
I love your channel dude. It honestly is a work of art and you should be so proud of what you have created. I am sure it is getting hard to keep making new videos but I think you should dive deeper into the what if scenarios more and flesh them out more, maybe go back and revisit some of your old ones because I think about them all the time haha. Keep it up mate!
I'm so happy that discovered that UA-cam Channel now, during my doctorate research. I'm studying the geography of fantasy worlds comparing Brazil and USA production of maps in books, and Tolkien's work is the main reference to every fantasy author. NoR helps me a lot to not feel alone while doing my writing
@9:50 Tolkien also states, in a section of Nature of Middle-Earth, that the Eagles are maiar. There's also an orc origin theory that they were originally maiar (boldogs).
One interesting thing to note is that Shagrat and Gorbag discuss freedom and independence from Sauron in the books. This maybe throws a spanner in the works of them being animalistic beings, possibly showing orcs to have some degree of free-thought and desire for independence. Are the orcs in this conversation just 'parroting' their master's thoughts? Or are these thoughts of their own? If they have agency, does that imply they have souls and by extension free-will? It's a convoluted question, the issue of free-will with regards to Orcs is something Tolkien grappled with but never provided an answer for in his lifetime unfortunately.
I think the way the orcs might be “parroting” Sauron is that Sauron does not want to be under the control of the Valar or Eru Illuvatar, so the orcs speak the same way about their masters.
I like the idea of Morgoth driving the fëa out of Elves. It fits the "corrupted Elves" description, and fixes Tolkien's personal issues with his own concept.
The Interview with P. Boyens was special, liked to hear her talk more about middle earth. I geeked out a little too as a fellow writer, would like to hear P. Jackson and P. Boyens on an interview themselves if they could go a little deeper into their thinking or a commentary about the show TROP (Rings of Power) and what they thought about it. Also would like if you (nerd of the rings) could do a video on Sauron’s eastern and southern travels. And how he corrupted the easterlings and southern men. Liked this one as well!!!
I don’t think the Orcs being beasts and not intelligent beings is born out in the text. They didn’t imitate like parrots; they talked about stuff and even had a culture. The Goblins of the Misty Mountains literally had a theme song in the Hobbit they sang when they hauled Thorin’s company down to Goblintown. Animals don’t do that. I think this is, unfortunately, an example of Tolkien painting himself into a corner. Weirdly enough, one of the few really good things about Rings of Power was that it actually picked at this a bit; orcs are intelligent beings who want things and don’t like being a slave army.
The idea that orcs are derived from elves adds more depth to the mythology, but raises many questions: 1) Are they still immortal? 2) When they die, do their souls go to the Halls of Mandos? 3) How does the phenomenon of reincarnation work? 4) Is the phenomenon of fading still valid for them? 5) Is it possible to recycle them? Since the metaphysical infrastructure of this idea was not sufficiently constructed by Tolkien, it will always receive criticism from these points.
My Theory (Not Facts) Morgoth likely created the orcs through a process similar to how Aule made the Dwarves. However, unlike the Dwarves, the orcs lack a spirit, rendering them mere automatons devoid of free will or thought. Consequently, Morgoth resorted to creating more orcs by corrupting, torturing, and mutilating both Elves and later Men. These soulless orcish drones assisted Morgoth in keeping captive Elves imprisoned, corrupted, and tortured within Angband. The severity of the torture was such that distinguishing the gender of a former Elf-turned-Orc became difficult. In the end, the spirited orcs (former Elves) demonstrate a capacity for independent thought, to the extent that they can compose their own songs, as exemplified by the "Clap! Snap! The black crack!" song from Goblin Town. The initially spirited Orcs were immortal, but successive generations of orcs witnessed their immortal Elvish spirits and immortality wane due to the dark magic infused within them. Consequently, orcs are unable to return to the Halls of Mandos upon death, instead becoming wandering dark spirits akin to the final fates of Sauron and Saruman. They remain in this state until the aftermath of Dagor Dagorath and the Second Music of the Ainur. However, this does not apply to orcs who genuinely strive to reconnect with their Elvish roots and endeavor to pursue goodness independently. Such endeavors are observed by Eru, who intervenes in the deaths of these virtuous orcs by sending their lost souls directly to the Halls of Mandos for healing. Despite this, I do not believe orcs can ever be redeemed because Tolkien wrote the orcs to be too irredeemable to the eyes of literally everyone.
When mentioning beasts, I cannot help but to think of dogs. My dog. A beast to be sure. Carelessly vicious towards a squirrel or a mouse. Driven by instinct. But noble in her loyalty and acute in her empathy. A lover of life. And as she shed this mortal coil accompanied by my tears and gratitude, I refuse to believe that she lacks a spirit with whom I will be reunited when my time comes. Do not let the thought of beasts be sloughed off so easily in an anthropocentric theology. I will be with her again.
I have my doubts that Tolkein would embraced the concept of the body and soul (and mind) as divisible things and not part of a whole person. That is called Body-spirit dualism and was/is considered heresy in the Christian faith. While his fiction wasn't a direct alagory of his faith, I think he would avoid such things in his writings. Maybe not. I tend to lean toward a corrupted elf mentally twisted and driven to utter insanity. Broken to such a degree that the only thing that matters to them is that they are no longer tormented by their master. They will do anything to avoid this torment. That being could potentially find redemption, though unlikely. This is because they still possess a soul. Great video, as always. Thank you.
This is such a fascinating, if chilling, topic, especially when considered with the complexities behind Tolkien's faith and lore. Thank you for covering this topic and summarising its evolution.
The picture of orcs as beasts does not fit with how we see them in LotR. The dialog of the orcs in The Twin Towers as they are headed back to Isengard with Merry and Pippen is one of my favorite parts of the books. They are just soldiers, and like soldiers from everywhere and everywhen, just trying to find their best life in a world of madness while staying true to their orders. The rivalry and friction between the units from Isengard and Mordor feels very real and relatable.
I think it’s safe to say that if they were created from elves, and orcs do have souls like the other Children of Illuvatar then, like Gollum, while there’s little hope for them to redeem themselves, that doesn’t mean there’s no hope at all. That said, in a combination of nature and nurture, their cruel lifestyle and upbringing feeds whatever dark predispositions they have so they supersede whatever inherent goodness they also possess.
I wonder if the idea of the body and soul being separate intelligences/entities comes in to play with Gollum and Smeagol - Gollum representing the corrupted body, and Smeagol the tormented soul. Perhaps they are a window in to the middle of this corruptive process for hobbits. Orcs having no souls and needing a dark lord to command them helps with explaining why Melkor and Sauron are load bearing bosses for their orcish armies
Excellent summary of the various theories. The notion from The Silmarilian never sat right with me but I could not explicate the reason(s). The last theory seems to capture both the personas of orcs and the evil of Melkor most. As you’ve noted, the theory is horrific in that the soul is trapped inside but seems like an apt representation of their behaviors and amalgamation of the discussions throughout the ages.
Tolkein accidentally demonstrated the inherent fallacy of a [Christian] omni powerful god. And continued that erroneous reasoning by not recognising [homo sapiens as] sentient beings are also animals! Tying himself into a metaphysical conundrum, while apparently not recognising the problem, is his Catholicism and deeply flawed Biblical teachings.
I don't think it's such an inconceivable idea that orcs have their own afterlife, just like elves and men. That Iluvatar provides for them and gives their corrupted souls a chance to heal, separate from the others. You already have different afterlives for men and elves, why not have a third? That might explain why their souls don't reside in the halls of Mandos.
Well the orcs are often shown to be self-loathing or implied to be aware of the misery of their existence, so that tracks with the last theory. Mine was always that 'Orcs' is a catchall term for the humanoid experiments of Morgoth (and their descendants); same way _goblins_ and orcs were ultimately lumped together as variants or sub-species of the same monsters. Morgoth committed the original sin of warping sentient beings - beginning with the elves - and, once unlocked, this lore was pursued and refined by his adherents over thousands of years. Modern orcs are therefore most likely derived from humans, especially since Sauron had a plentiful supply of them in the East. Interesting topic, as always, NotR!
Huan might not have a rational soul but he might have an _irrational_ one, because he is a dog. This irrationality is why we love dogs.🙂 Tolkien's later characterization of Orcs as soulless seemingly contradicts their portrayal in _The Lord of the Rings._ I keep thinking of the dialogue between the tracker and the big orc in _The Return of the King,_ and Gorbag and Shagrat at the end of _The Two Towers_. In both instances there is subversive talk, which would be inconceivable if Orcs were unthinking beings.
It is impossible that they were beasts talk between shagrat and gorbag are not records nor is the intergroup fighting between orcs which hindered them in Rohan. And Tolkien though a Catholic read a lot of germanic lore some of pagan origin, from which a lot of these races are derived. So they must really be considered proper creation of morgoth or corrupted elves. Mannish origin is too late per lore Therefore, I like the Christopher's Silmarillion selection
And eagles and huan were of one Vala each. Eagle of manwe and huan of orome. I am just saying that otherwise the Valar seem powerful enough themselves and the catholic world view is not always true in Tolkien's writings.
My own theory about the Orcs come from the idea that the first of them were Elves but forced into a new form. We know that Morgoth, Sauron, and the Witch King had some kind of power over souls and I believe this is the key to the Orcs creation. Morgoth captured some of the Elves and experimented on their bodies and spirits, after learning how easy it was to reshape their souls and turn them evil, Morgoth removed the Elves souls and put them into new bodies. I think he might have used a type of primate, because Orcs have a lot of ape-like features. This is likely because we know that souls can be put into other things. Sauron made werewolves by use evil spirits and the Barrow-wights are dead bodies with evil souls inside them. We also have the Silent-Watchers which are statues housing evil souls. This idea make since to me, because it uses things that Tolkien himself write down in the books and it explained why the Orcs are so animal-like. Again this is just my theory, so I could be wrong.
If by one end the idea of orcs as beasts in humanoid form is at odds with passages such as shaggrat and gorbag making plans among themselves (although that could be seen as "treachery" implanted in them by Morgoth), also the "corrupted men and elves" origin does not make sense with the end of orcs when Sauron falls. At the fall of Barad-dur, differently from men (beings with free-will), that keep fighting for years with the Gondor armies, orcs (and all other non-human servants of sauron) simply flee like "ants without a queen", like mindless beasts, going into the wild to slowly disappear, and they are never mentioned again as a threat to free people in the coming 4th age (in RotK), while the men continue to act in Sauron's allegiance. It is implied (at least in this point in RotK) that orcs were fully deppendant of Sauron's will to think or act in a "willed" manner, without that, they reverted to an almost mindless state (some orcs even throw themselves at the pits that open when the black gate cracks). Perhaps Tolkien's vision hasn't changed yet at that point of the legendarium? Whatever it was, doesn't seem we have a definitive origin that can conciliate those different depictions yet...
05:12 This is why I love Tolkien's works. Evil must be struck down and purged immediately and without inflicting suffering. This narrative and that of the Jedi in Star Wars were the heroic ideals I grew up with. It's really sad how in the 21st century we got so many twisted and depraved heroes (IE, Jack Bauer from "24") who revel in torturing and doing horrific things in the name of "good," apparently okay as long as they are doing it, not the villains. Failing to see that such acts are inherently and irredeemably evil. If a hero stoops to the villain's level, then that is a flaw or a mistake made, often understandably, in the throes of battle, not something to be celebrated and portrayed as good and righteous.
I think the last option is the best origin for the Orks (followed closely by the classic Elves version) However I would like to say that his opinion of animals not having souls makes me very uncomfortable and I highly doubt he had any pets.
That is the best explanation I’ve heard thus far. I have been reading Tolkien since the early 1980s, and could never quite accept entirely any origin for the orcs. There was always an inconsistency. If they were tortured elves, how were their souls reconciled to Mandos? Would they not be immortal? Why, then we’re other captives such as Gwindor not made into orcs? Obviously, orcs were far more numerous in population to the elves, and given elves’ low propensity to bear many children, it seems unlikely that orcs only originate from elves Morgoth (and later Sauron) managed to capture. Even an unnaturally robust breeding program could not yield the vast hordes that show up at each of these battles. I find it more digestible that orcs were fashioned from a template of tortured elves whose spirits were cast out from their bodies. If Aule could create soulless moving creatures in the Dwarves, should we then not suppose Melkor, first among the Valar in skill and power, should have this potential? Clearly, orcs are soulless beings.
You kind of also could think of them as simply living machines, they move and have programs that allow them to think and reason but they do not have souls for they are machines of flesh and blood
You hit a home run with this one. Just when I thought I had heard enough about the subject you weaved a wonderful and harrowing tale. Thank you! Good choice in background music also, whose the composer?
Eye opener of an episode. Trapped souls in evil bodies is terrifying and shows the darker thoughts Tolkien may have carried from his time in WW1. Never a poor video dude!!
I prefer the version with them as corrupted Elves. The Orcish souls will be redeemed at the end of the world at last, because no ensouled being beyond ultimate redemption to Eru.
Y'know...in a way, Morgoth did get what he wanted...life he could twist solely to serve him. And he'd make them unable to escape his control, even if they desperately wanted to. Evil is not born...it is made.
The back and forth on the origin of the orcs could also be a conceit by Tolkien, in the sense that he frames his work on the legendarium as that of a translator of found works from the distant past, where there may be conflicting documentary evidence for multiple origin stories. So, if he "found" multiple conflicting accounts, then simply translated them, then put forward the one that had the most supporting "evidence" as the most likely "canonical" story, he could then go back and revisit the other origin tales and intellectually debate the merits or drawbacks of each.
To me it seems to come full circle: If the orcs have no fea and were akin to animals could morgoth have not just made them from rocks as Tolkein originally planned?
I think the problem here is believing that a soul= intelligence/speaking, or that a soul is a requirement for these things. This need not be true, whatever your beliefs may be I doubt there are many that will think, if it's ever created, that true AI will have a soul, yet AI will likely be more intelligent than man and more than capable of language. Orcs could be the same concept, intelligent and capable of speech and independent actions but no more having a soul than an AI would, think of orcs like fleshy T800 terminators.
Imagine Orcs and Elves as the Hunter-Gatherers of ages past upon our Earth. Their difference is their way of life. An Orc will hunt for food with a little bit of gathering, while an Elf will gather food (provided by Yavanna) with a little bit of hunting. As such Orcs have been selectively bred by Melkor, Elves and Men to gather under one Master and ravage the lands of Arda in Warbands. Eurasia has seen such savagery, and I believe Tolkien didn't struggle with their Origins. An Orcish lifestyle exists in nature (Melkor), it exists in gathering (Elves) and it exists in societies (Men). Cannibalism.
@@em333 No, to its stupidity. Tolkien ruined his books with contradictory fundie voodoo, he was so close to realizing things indoctrinated into him in childhood were complete nonsense no amount of rationalizing and tweaking will ever fix, too bad he never made that last step and realized how dumb he was in doing so...
That's Tolkien's early name for the Noldor. I think it appears in the Histories of Middle Earth and some of the appendices of other works. Luckily the books have decoder rings to figure out all the renaming/story changes over the years.
To summarize it up. 🤔 For me the origin of ors/goblins is as such: When elves awakened in the Arda they were partly captured by Melkor. Who tormented them and mutated them to be orcs. Of course they died in the process - so the orks are soulless. Souls of died elves are in the halls of Mandos, where they can be restored, healed (in very long time) and then they will be rebirth in new body in Valinor (maybe after their body is killed as orkish). My personal explanations of unclear moments: In the wars afterwards and through the deception and kidnapping Melkor could reproduce more orks from elves. But I don't think they could make children at all. And I think orks are made from elves and goblins (lesser orks) are from men. So Saruman just mutated them together in the dirt pit with his machinery and evil magic to make Uruk Hai. So when wars will be over and all "evil guys" are dealed with - noone will be able to create new orks and they will be perished forever. And I am totally agreed with Tolkien: during war and battle noone of free people should behave like ork - no torture and harassment of any kind. Because it will contaminate the fea and Melkor wants just that.
This is how such creatures work in my setting. I am also Catholic and struggle with the same dilemma. I have separated out free-willed races as simply exaggerations/fantastical human races (they are still ultimately human - I have a soft issue with creatures like Tolkien's elves) and other seeming-intelligent creatures I call the 'sapients'. The sapients have mortal souls a la animals and some live for much longer to compensate. The sapients have a fixed culture that is irrevocably tied to their species, as well as their behavior. There are no goblins that aren't violent and don't steal; there are no bormin who do not construct anything more sophisticated than dirt huts, etc. This excerpt from St Alphonsus Ligouri makes me dwell all the deeper on this matter: "If on this earth where were two classes of men, one mortal, and the other immortal, and if the former saw the latter entirely devoted to the acquisition of earthly goods, would they not exclaim: O fools that you are! You have it in your power to secure the immense and eternal goods of Paradise, and you lose your time in procuring the miserable goods of this earth, which shall end at death. And for these you expose yourselves to the danger of the eternal torments of hell. Leave to us, for whom all shall end at death, the care of these earthly things." What would be considered indulgence and greed from our morality as immortal souled beings would actually be the pursuit of the natural good for such a mortal race...
I got the Feeling if he was alive people would probably have to ask him for permission to use them in their fantasy worlds since he created them they have to pay him to use them in their fantasy worlds
The orcs in media, like World of Warcraft, are redeemable and are natural beings. Tolkien’s orcs (goblins) are near-irredeemable and unnatural creatures. In Warcraft, Thrall (Go'el) is the epitome of Orc redemption for the war crimes committed during the First War and the Second War on Azeroth.
I am reminded of Nephilim, empty vessels ripe for use by another spirit. The spirits of Melkor and Sauron could drive them to do his will, and when they were gone the orcs became rudderless and almost unable to function.
I have what I believe to be a solution to the conundrum that both satisfies the largest body of canon and fits conveniently in the professor's own worldview. It has as is basis the Christian concept of the triune nature of man (as seen in 1 Thes. 5:23) as being comprised of body, soul and spirit. Tolkien even mentioned it when he surmised that they were similar to dogs, horses and parrots...orcs, as eagles, trolls, and dragons, are soulish in nature rather than spiritual. They possess corporeal forms (bodies) with mind, emotion, and will (souls) but lack fëa (spirits). And this is compatible with the concept of orcs as corrupted elves if one presumes that upon their final phase of their corruption that the elvish fëa was given up, but their corporeal forms were left behind for Melkor to preserve and modify to his preference as an abomination to Eru.
One of the many gifts given us by RoP was how it approached this very topic with earnestness, rather than simply reducing the Orcs to cannon-fodder the way the movies did. Here, on the other hand, the orcs are still the enemy, and a brutal enemy that has to be fought "with the utmost severity" as Nerwen very clearly vows to do, but they're still living beings same as Elves and Men.
Potentially, Morgoth could have just corrupted a few elves and then bred them with some sort of ape like animal species to get orcs. I very much like the idea that they are extensions of his will and powered by his malice. (The idea being that Morgoth's corruption of Arda will essentially always keep the orcs going even when he isn't around until Arda is remade) Orcs could also be a mix between corrupted elves, men, and animals to get something completely new but also resembling other creatures
I wonder how Tolkien would frame this question if he were writing today, considering a SLIGHT weakening of Catholic dogma regarding animals and "souls" since Tolkien's time.
Hi, i have a question that's been bugging me about Sauron's telepathic connection to the one ring that was portrayed by Peter Jackson in his series of movies. This channel seems to me to be the preeminent channel in all things JRR Tolkien so i thought I'd ask it here in the hopes of getting an answer. In the movies, when frodo put on the ring it seemed to reveal his presence to Sauron and the ring wraiths, transporting him, in a way, into their plane of existence. Why then, for the many decades that smeagol/gollum & Bilbo possessed and used the ring did it not effect the same results on them? Was this effect just something Peter Jackson added via creative license to his movies or is it based on Tolkiens works and I just missed it when I read all four books years ago? It just stands to reason (to me anyway) that if Sauron was tied to the One Ring that anytime someone slipped it on their finger it would alert Sauron. Thanks .
That final origin makes the most sense in the context of Tolkien's faith and other establish lore. Christianity has divided and wrestled between factions & individuals, despite doctrine stating that all men should be redeemed. For the Orcs of Middle Earth to be alive they must have souls, and for the Elves and Men to forget that fact is all too relatable.
I think the best explanation is that orcs originated from elves. Orcs were really intelligent creatures - Tolkien himself stated in Hobbit " they can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves - it is not unlikly that they invented some of the machines especially the ingenious devices for killing large number of people at once for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them....
6:59 To be fair, if men and elves could have children together, there's no reason for men and orcs to not be capable of the same, if they are indeed tortured elves.
Yeah. I wonder why there are no elf-orcs or orc-elves though. They should be super compatible. Unless I just haven't heard of them maybe? Seems to get a little muddled when you start getting into the weeds of who has souls and what that means. Do orc-men have souls? What about orc-men-men? Men-orc-men-men?
That alone is best proof Tolkien was a regular artist. He created something great, but was conflicted on explanation of where it came from. In the end, it doesn’t really matter that much, and gives them an air of mystery and intrigue for what we love his universe.
The art can be good while flawed. The story would certainly be better if there weren't any orcs though, and at the end of the Lord of the rings, Aragorn then had to deal with all of sauron's supporters
Separating the souls and bodies is just as impossible as anyone being irredeemable. Souls are not vague spirits and "our true selves" trapped in meatvessels, like gnostics would have it, rather it is being both souls and bodies which separate us from the Angels on the one hand and animals on the other, making us uniquely human.
Here's a fun to what if question how different do you think the second and third ages would be if the lands of the first age never sunk under the sea after the war of Wrath
![The History of Sauron [COMPILATION] | Tolkien Explained](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8IqAN1Of70k/mqdefault.jpg)
ICYMI: check out my interview with Oscar-winning writer of LOTR, Philippa Boyens! We chat about the NEW LOTR film: War of the Rohirrim! Philippa Boyens talks War of the Rohirrim! First chat with writers of new LOTR film!
ua-cam.com/video/0hDQFo32WE0/v-deo.html
What are your thoughts on the “What if Boromir lived “ scenario? Boromir is injured but survives Amon Hen, joins the three hunters in their pursuit of merry and Pippin. I know it’s probably not something Tolkien considered, like the Gollum repenting video, but I think it could make a cool video regardless. How might Boromir change the rest of the story? How is Faramir’s meeting with Frodo and Sam different? How does Denathor change in the siege of Minas Tirith now that he isn’t as fractured by Boromir’s death? Does he survive at that point? How does Denathor react to Boromir being in favor of Aragorn becoming king?
I could go on, but I think it could make a very interesting and fun video!
I did watch! It was fun. I hope it is a good movie. I had some trepidations for the insinuation at 1:04:17 in that video. I hope they can just stick to the Tolkien written work. If they want to play with their own ideas, thats cool, that is writing, but if they want to adapt someone elses work, they need to do it faithfully. Or make their own.
Tolkien was a catholic, and for them, only humans have souls.
Dope
I have my thought as to how the Orcs came to be which stem largely from Tolkien's established lore. Part of it is inspired by a famous game Dragon Age, in which creator David Gaider created Darkspawn as an inspiration after Tolkien's ors. In my version Melkor as you stated at the beginning and the end, Melkor did capture those unfortunate elves and by using his vile sorcery and power through torture, and corruption turned these elves… Especially elven women into beings whose only purpose was to birth orcs. And since Saruman crossbreed orcs with men, it does to me make sense. What do you think about it…
If Morgoth taught the Orcs speech, there must have been restaurants in Utumno, or else how would they have know what a "menu" is?
I understand your argument.
Unfortunately, it comes from the movie.....
It's a Jackson contribution.....
The fight happens, but "meat is back on the menu." Isn't said 😕.
Those Orcs lived thousands of years after the fall of Morgoth and had much more interaction with Man cultures.
@@knines4280
Even if it had been in the book, LotR takes place like 7000+ years after the fall of Morgoth, right?
And we're explicitly shown that Saruman's Orcs were mingled with Men. Even Mordor Orcs mingled with Men more than any Morgoth Orcs had.
This video literally describes how the Uruk-hai are part Man.
Why *wouldn't* an Uruk know what a menu is?
@@Richard_Nickerson well, a "menu" suggests a bit of civility refinement......
I doubt orcs wore ties😎.
@@knines4280
Menus don't imply modern dress attire whatsoever.
This is really interesting how his catholic theology affected his views of the orcs. Catholics typically reject the Calvinist views of predestination. A Calvinist wouldn’t have much conflict with the idea of some souls being destined for destruction and not redemption/salvation. Catholics typically reject that and believe all souls have potential for redemption/salvation. It’s cool to see how it plays into the story.
I think the Calvinist view is a little misrepresented in this respect (so that what you have said is best understood by hyper-Calvinist).
The creature having Fea can surely be likened to the image of God in theology. As such, it's ordaination is distinct. Such, the "vessel made for destruction", is not up to Melkor and his actions but to Eru himself. And the Orcs are not intrinsically cut off from "salvation", whatever that fundamentally means in Tolkien's Middle Earth.
This is why I (from the a Calvinist view) have always had trouble with the orcs origin. Also... Main stream Catholicism is pretty close to Calvinism in regard to ordination. It's really only Jesuit Molonism that made the big difference.
@@benjaminagnew5361 Great discussion! I agree that Eru would be the driving force behind destiny in that world. It could be that the elves that failed to respond to the call of the valar were destined by Eru to become the orcs and become vessels for his wrath and destruction. I believe there is strong support for double predestination in the bible and early church fathers (Augustine seemed to endorse double predestination even thought some catholic and orthodox theologians disagree). My background is as a reformed confessional Anglican. I lean in favor of four of the five points of Calvinism. I am not sure I believe in limited atonement but the others have strong arguments in scripture.
@@ErnestMaupin-j7d I ask this with a genuine desire to seek what could be said to be the Truth of God: Where, in any of Augustine's works, did he even implicitly aver the concept of double predestination? As a pitiful scholar of pre-8th-century Patristics, I have not read any Church Father who held that one's eternal damnation was outside of their control. Theodoret can be questionable, Origen can be off on certain points (bless him), and until the censured Gottschalk of Orbais in the 800s (I believe) do we see such a teaching take hold of the "rudibus", or "uninstructed"-as termed by Augustine and Martin of Braga.
Either way, would you point me to the work wherein I could find such a claim? Even in his Retractiones, I've found nothing that could point to such an idea. Thank you, dear friend.
@@ErnestMaupin-j7d
Augustine isn’t really early Church, he’s post council of Nicaea. And he was the inlet for much satanic doctrine into what became Catholicism (as distinct from pure Christianity).
@@justindenlinger6304 Do you have any examples, my friend?
Shoutout to Debbie keeping this channel running. She's a real one.
Hail, Debbie 🫡
For me is Tomdabombadil, rabbi rob thomas and the dark haired one
Is this voice the guy from Why files?
Andddd debbie
It may not be exactly canon, but one of the most visually evocative sequences in the LOTR trilogy is the birth of the first Uruk-hai in Fellowship of the Ring. He comes out of the mud-pits below Isengard, and his birth entails pulling away a membrane that makes the vile pit seem rather like a grotesque parody of a womb. It's so effective for how it thoroughly deprives the Orcs of any sympathy. Because Saruman is an industrialist, this Uruk-hai birthing scene gives the impression that his Orcs are not so much bred as manufactured, just as surely as are his weapons and machinery. (It's similarly effective to see Orcs being birthed in Two Towers intercut with scenes of industrial activity and Saruman's voice-over about it). As I said, I'm not sure how canon it is; I'm told that since Orcs are bred from Elves and/or Men, they reproduce sexually just like those natural species. It's true, you don't see many Orc women, but that shouldn't necessarily give rise to the belief that there are no Orc women, and that Orcs just spring out of holes in the ground.
Whom do you serve?
SAHHHHHROOOOOMAAAAAHHN
That ending to an interesting and thought out comment: 👌 chef's kiss
It's probably impossible to tell the difference between male & female orcs
@@SeraphimCramer Probably. Perhaps female Orcs are even conscripted into Sauron's forces; Orc women may well have fought viciously at Minas Tirith alongside their male counterparts. Or, barring that, an "Orc-owyn," if you will, could have secretly joined the ranks out of a fervent desire to fight for Sauron.
@@colinbaldwin313I can’t help but think that the life of a orc child must be absolutely grim.
Regardless of how they were created, one thing is for certain: they are one of the most tragic races in fantasy. Created by a dark lord for the sole purpose of destruction and killing, with no chance of ever being anything else. Evil they might be, but it's not like they were ever given a choice.
Couldn’t the same be said of Melkor? Eru made him to be the way that he is. If Melkor is evil incarnate, wouldn’t the one responsible for his creation be equally evil?
I feel like the idea of orcs as animals kind of clashes with that conversation in Two Towers they have, where they show a desire for freedom and independence. They still cling to their wicked ways, wishing to live off raiding, stealing and murdering, but if they really were just animals following their masters every command, they probably wouldn't care to have their own like that. I like the idea they're corrupted elves, deeply wounded by what Morgoth did to them, but not so deeply they can't be made whole again after their soul goes to Valinor. Tolkien kept going back and forth his whole life about whether they could be redeemed and the idea that they will be in the Halls of Mandos, I feel, fit well with the themes set forth in the books. But as with everything else not written in the four books he personally published, it's really just a theory at best and hearing what everyone else thinks is super interesting too.
Agreed! The idea of their having an impotent _fea_ seems to make the most sense. The orcs rarely seem so bestial that they are cannot think about what others are thinking, nor do they seem wholly dependent on “the big bosses.” There is a _there_ there, but it seems permanently stunted in orcs as a whole.
That's probably why Tolkien discarded the animal idea rather quickly.
This is what I come up against when considering the 'beast' theory. They are clearly capable of much more than simply parroting back orders.
I completely agree, also because I love those parts of the books, when you see that even orcs are beings with their own desires. It makes the story all the more compelling, if the bad guys are actually people their evil deeds are all the more vile, because they are willingly committing them.
At the end of the day I think it might be a little of both arguments. The first few generations may have those elvish souls but with each generation those Fea might dimnish more and more and more until there is none and by the time of the second song the orcs may be nothing but the animals they are desribed as
11:12 I've always thought this for the longest time as well. What better way to mock Eru then by
1)corrupting the body of his Firstborn
2)removing/destroying the one thing Melkor can't create/control
3)putting them through misery without any promise of things ever getting better
All done to tell Eru "I can't make my own creations, but I have no problem and no issue with remaking yours in my image. One way or the other I will get my way"
Where, then, would the souls go? Melkor would not have the power to destroy a soul, any more than he had the power to create a soul. Did the souls fly to the Halls of Mandos along with those of the deceased?
I most agree with the theory that Melkor’s evil was able to suppress/strangle the souls of Elves and Men so that they could only feel horror and suffering while their bodies and minds became enslaved as Orcs. A plausible (due to Melkor’s and Sauron’s enormous power) and also a truly horrifying idea.
Yes, exactly, well said! 🖖😁🤘🇨🇦
@@12classics39 But this is even dumber. If so, soul is not needed for smart, civilized beings, meaning it's completely superfluous and Morgoth could just create orks without souls and called it a day. No, Tolkien just marred his books trying to cram idiotic contradictory nonsense made up by bored stone age goat herders 2000 years ago, all while knowing he can't ram square peg into round hole. Either soul is not needed or Morgoth could create, Tolkien is twisting trying to answer question 'can Aule create stone too heavy for him to lift'...
@@12classics39
Interestingly, your second paragraph summarizes the final stages of demonic possession, which makes it all the more plausible as it could be yet another echo of Catholic theology from Tolkien.
@@12classics39
There were 2 possibilities described in the video, right?
1. Driven out completely, the implication being they would go to the Halls of Mandos as all other Eldar fëa go.
2. They're driven down within the being itself to the point of being wholly impotent within themselves. Not driven out of the body, but rather driven down to a depth it cannot come back from. In this case, the assumption would, again, be that the fëa goes to the Halls of Mandos, as they're still Elven fëa.
I would assume that Orc fëa would either never return, as those like Glorfindel did, being too damaged. Or they would just require so much more time than a normal fëa that the Dagor Dagorlad is more likely to come first.
I swear every time I see a new video I think to myself "man he must be running out of topics". And every time I am completely humbled by how amazing these videos are. Great job.
I think Morgoth corrupting elves into orcs makes more sense lore wise. By the time Sauron was building up power for himself, he most likely used humans to turn into Orcs since there weren't that many Elves in the 2nd and 3rd Age. There's also a possibility that other fallen Maia who were in league with Morgoth could have taken the form of an orc but looked more demonic and beastly than your typical average orc, which could explain why some of the orcs that resided in Goblin Town could have been the offspring of those orcs given their description of their features in The Hobbit.
Loved that you did this. These races and the big bad of Middle Earth all have interesting in universe origins but thats primarily because all of them had interesting out of universe origins too.
Look into the 1000s of stories of Sasquatch encounters- and encounters with The Wolfmen and others that do live in our earth and come out through caves.
Militaries around the planet battle them from time to time.
And their are The 12-15 foot Org like giants.
Them creatures are known still to eat humans.
And many stories of In the name of Jesus- people have stoped the attack.
The Narnia stories get into that story pretty well❤
I could be wrong, but I believe that in Morgoth’s Ring there is an essay where Tolkien suggests that orcs were descendants of lesser maiar’s who, perhaps after taking monstrous forms, mated with beasts (possibly wolves). Implying that orcs were created after a long and brutal process of breeding and interbreeding with animals, then elves and then men.
My head canon is that Morgoth corupted chimps into orcs. Entertain this idea:
- chimps are similar in appearance to Elves
- chimps are naturaly agressive so Morgoth's power only enhanced it
- chimps are inteligent so he enhanced sligthly their inteligece and gave them abillity to speak
I don't think that any kind of ape or monkey was ever mentioned in Tolkien's writing but keep in mind that, in universe, books are writen by people and scholars from Westernlands of Middle Earth and apes would live around Far Harad or somewhere else in the south. I think it's a fun idea that I wanted to share. Sorry for bad english, it's not my first language
"Hundreds of long ladders were lifted up. Many were cast down in ruin, but many more replaced them, and Orcs sprang up them like apes in the dark forests of the South."
-Helms Deep, The Two Towers
I would love a breakdown of the origin of trolls as Treebeard explicitly mentions they are derived from the Ents in the books.
I always understood that trolls were the mockery of ents, dragons the mockery of eagles, wargs the mockery of horses, etc.
@@Eowyn3Pride yeah that makes a lot of sense. only thing is that Treebeard explicitly states it as canon rather than us speculating or even 4th wall commentary from Tolkein
@@Eowyn3Pride
The first dragon had no wings
Anyone else now have a mental image of a special wing in the house of Mandos where the broken souls go like some sort of mental ward filled with soft rooms? "It's going to be okay, you're okay; no one can hurt you in here"
This just makes me want to cry, because if we're going with the belief that Orcs are imprison, tortured and corrupted elves, then their soul/Fae would still remain as it was, an Eldar's Fae, and so when in the first age an Orc is slain their soul would go to the halls of Mandos and would have to live with the memories and pain they've endured an deblt for the rest of their immortal lives.
Loved this. I understand why it's so hard to explain the origin of Orcs.
In Tolkien's own faith humans are more like Orcs than Men: we were like Elves in not knowing evil nor being corrupted by the Evil One/Great Deceiver. Now we all are and our spirit (Faea) can shrivel to impotence (quenched!) with repeat evil deeds/thoughts/desires/etc.
And without Divine Intervention/a Savior we will remain orcish because our own spirits lack the power to change our bodies for Good. That's what Orcs don't have in Arda: Divine Intervention.
It begs the question for me if Orc Faea get a 2nd chance (because they were literally born evil) by Mandos allowing them to be reincarnated. 🤔
Tolkein hated allegory, and would've disagreed with this comment
0:15, Tolkien has his own Character bubble. I just had a funny Idea: The Travels of Tolkien. It could be a video dedicated to the life of J.R.R Tolkien and it could be structured similarly to other travel videos, however, it’s about Tolkien and his life.
You killed this one. It’s been a while since I’ve heard a truly new and also lore based take. Incredibly interesting
I love your channel dude. It honestly is a work of art and you should be so proud of what you have created. I am sure it is getting hard to keep making new videos but I think you should dive deeper into the what if scenarios more and flesh them out more, maybe go back and revisit some of your old ones because I think about them all the time haha. Keep it up mate!
This is one of the best Tolkien channels on UA-cam I’ve been watching your stuff a hell of a long time
When in times of trouble Tolkien mellows me out
I'm so happy that discovered that UA-cam Channel now, during my doctorate research. I'm studying the geography of fantasy worlds comparing Brazil and USA production of maps in books, and Tolkien's work is the main reference to every fantasy author. NoR helps me a lot to not feel alone while doing my writing
So cool!!!😀❤️🍻
@9:50 Tolkien also states, in a section of Nature of Middle-Earth, that the Eagles are maiar. There's also an orc origin theory that they were originally maiar (boldogs).
One interesting thing to note is that Shagrat and Gorbag discuss freedom and independence from Sauron in the books. This maybe throws a spanner in the works of them being animalistic beings, possibly showing orcs to have some degree of free-thought and desire for independence. Are the orcs in this conversation just 'parroting' their master's thoughts? Or are these thoughts of their own? If they have agency, does that imply they have souls and by extension free-will? It's a convoluted question, the issue of free-will with regards to Orcs is something Tolkien grappled with but never provided an answer for in his lifetime unfortunately.
Agreed.
I think the way the orcs might be “parroting” Sauron is that Sauron does not want to be under the control of the Valar or Eru Illuvatar, so the orcs speak the same way about their masters.
Definitely seems to fit with parroting Morgoth and/or Sauron
I like the idea of Morgoth driving the fëa out of Elves. It fits the "corrupted Elves" description, and fixes Tolkien's personal issues with his own concept.
The Interview with P. Boyens was special, liked to hear her talk more about middle earth. I geeked out a little too as a fellow writer, would like to hear P. Jackson and P. Boyens on an interview themselves if they could go a little deeper into their thinking or a commentary about the show TROP (Rings of Power) and what they thought about it. Also would like if you (nerd of the rings) could do a video on Sauron’s eastern and southern travels. And how he corrupted the easterlings and southern men. Liked this one as well!!!
I don’t think the Orcs being beasts and not intelligent beings is born out in the text. They didn’t imitate like parrots; they talked about stuff and even had a culture. The Goblins of the Misty Mountains literally had a theme song in the Hobbit they sang when they hauled Thorin’s company down to Goblintown. Animals don’t do that.
I think this is, unfortunately, an example of Tolkien painting himself into a corner. Weirdly enough, one of the few really good things about Rings of Power was that it actually picked at this a bit; orcs are intelligent beings who want things and don’t like being a slave army.
The idea that orcs are derived from elves adds more depth to the mythology, but raises many questions:
1) Are they still immortal?
2) When they die, do their souls go to the Halls of Mandos?
3) How does the phenomenon of reincarnation work?
4) Is the phenomenon of fading still valid for them?
5) Is it possible to recycle them?
Since the metaphysical infrastructure of this idea was not sufficiently constructed by Tolkien, it will always receive criticism from these points.
My Theory (Not Facts)
Morgoth likely created the orcs through a process similar to how Aule made the Dwarves. However, unlike the Dwarves, the orcs lack a spirit, rendering them mere automatons devoid of free will or thought. Consequently, Morgoth resorted to creating more orcs by corrupting, torturing, and mutilating both Elves and later Men. These soulless orcish drones assisted Morgoth in keeping captive Elves imprisoned, corrupted, and tortured within Angband. The severity of the torture was such that distinguishing the gender of a former Elf-turned-Orc became difficult. In the end, the spirited orcs (former Elves) demonstrate a capacity for independent thought, to the extent that they can compose their own songs, as exemplified by the "Clap! Snap! The black crack!" song from Goblin Town.
The initially spirited Orcs were immortal, but successive generations of orcs witnessed their immortal Elvish spirits and immortality wane due to the dark magic infused within them. Consequently, orcs are unable to return to the Halls of Mandos upon death, instead becoming wandering dark spirits akin to the final fates of Sauron and Saruman. They remain in this state until the aftermath of Dagor Dagorath and the Second Music of the Ainur.
However, this does not apply to orcs who genuinely strive to reconnect with their Elvish roots and endeavor to pursue goodness independently. Such endeavors are observed by Eru, who intervenes in the deaths of these virtuous orcs by sending their lost souls directly to the Halls of Mandos for healing. Despite this, I do not believe orcs can ever be redeemed because Tolkien wrote the orcs to be too irredeemable to the eyes of literally everyone.
When mentioning beasts, I cannot help but to think of dogs. My dog. A beast to be sure. Carelessly vicious towards a squirrel or a mouse. Driven by instinct. But noble in her loyalty and acute in her empathy. A lover of life. And as she shed this mortal coil accompanied by my tears and gratitude, I refuse to believe that she lacks a spirit with whom I will be reunited when my time comes. Do not let the thought of beasts be sloughed off so easily in an anthropocentric theology. I will be with her again.
I have my doubts that Tolkein would embraced the concept of the body and soul (and mind) as divisible things and not part of a whole person. That is called Body-spirit dualism and was/is considered heresy in the Christian faith. While his fiction wasn't a direct alagory of his faith, I think he would avoid such things in his writings. Maybe not.
I tend to lean toward a corrupted elf mentally twisted and driven to utter insanity. Broken to such a degree that the only thing that matters to them is that they are no longer tormented by their master. They will do anything to avoid this torment. That being could potentially find redemption, though unlikely. This is because they still possess a soul.
Great video, as always. Thank you.
Great video, as always. Chilling music. Thank you!
tokien was really deep with the social commentary. gotta love it
This is such a fascinating, if chilling, topic, especially when considered with the complexities behind Tolkien's faith and lore.
Thank you for covering this topic and summarising its evolution.
The picture of orcs as beasts does not fit with how we see them in LotR. The dialog of the orcs in The Twin Towers as they are headed back to Isengard with Merry and Pippen is one of my favorite parts of the books. They are just soldiers, and like soldiers from everywhere and everywhen, just trying to find their best life in a world of madness while staying true to their orders. The rivalry and friction between the units from Isengard and Mordor feels very real and relatable.
Really appreciate your speculations about the origin of orcs. Probably the best I've seen on the subject. Thank you!
I think it’s safe to say that if they were created from elves, and orcs do have souls like the other Children of Illuvatar then, like Gollum, while there’s little hope for them to redeem themselves, that doesn’t mean there’s no hope at all. That said, in a combination of nature and nurture, their cruel lifestyle and upbringing feeds whatever dark predispositions they have so they supersede whatever inherent goodness they also possess.
I’ve been watching bong your vids forever and I love them you really put Tolkiens world into light!!!!!!!!!❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Melian the Maia was able to reproduce with an elf, Thingol. What if corrupted Maia were used to create or contribute to orks in some way?
You have such a dedicated UA-cam channel, Matt Damon. Good job on getting millions of hits
I wonder if the idea of the body and soul being separate intelligences/entities comes in to play with Gollum and Smeagol - Gollum representing the corrupted body, and Smeagol the tormented soul. Perhaps they are a window in to the middle of this corruptive process for hobbits.
Orcs having no souls and needing a dark lord to command them helps with explaining why Melkor and Sauron are load bearing bosses for their orcish armies
A very Different episode. Surreal and Philosophical ❤
Excellent summary of the various theories. The notion from The Silmarilian never sat right with me but I could not explicate the reason(s). The last theory seems to capture both the personas of orcs and the evil of Melkor most. As you’ve noted, the theory is horrific in that the soul is trapped inside but seems like an apt representation of their behaviors and amalgamation of the discussions throughout the ages.
Tolkein accidentally demonstrated the inherent fallacy of a [Christian] omni powerful god.
And continued that erroneous reasoning by not recognising [homo sapiens as] sentient beings are also animals!
Tying himself into a metaphysical conundrum, while apparently not recognising the problem, is his Catholicism and deeply flawed Biblical teachings.
One of my favorite topics
I don't think it's such an inconceivable idea that orcs have their own afterlife, just like elves and men. That Iluvatar provides for them and gives their corrupted souls a chance to heal, separate from the others. You already have different afterlives for men and elves, why not have a third? That might explain why their souls don't reside in the halls of Mandos.
Well the orcs are often shown to be self-loathing or implied to be aware of the misery of their existence, so that tracks with the last theory. Mine was always that 'Orcs' is a catchall term for the humanoid experiments of Morgoth (and their descendants); same way _goblins_ and orcs were ultimately lumped together as variants or sub-species of the same monsters. Morgoth committed the original sin of warping sentient beings - beginning with the elves - and, once unlocked, this lore was pursued and refined by his adherents over thousands of years. Modern orcs are therefore most likely derived from humans, especially since Sauron had a plentiful supply of them in the East. Interesting topic, as always, NotR!
PLEASE PLEASE a video on the many languages of Middle- Earth!!
Huan might not have a rational soul but he might have an _irrational_ one, because he is a dog. This irrationality is why we love dogs.🙂
Tolkien's later characterization of Orcs as soulless seemingly contradicts their portrayal in _The Lord of the Rings._ I keep thinking of the dialogue between the tracker and the big orc in _The Return of the King,_ and Gorbag and Shagrat at the end of _The Two Towers_. In both instances there is subversive talk, which would be inconceivable if Orcs were unthinking beings.
It is impossible that they were beasts talk between shagrat and gorbag are not records nor is the intergroup fighting between orcs which hindered them in Rohan.
And Tolkien though a Catholic read a lot of germanic lore some of pagan origin, from which a lot of these races are derived.
So they must really be considered proper creation of morgoth or corrupted elves.
Mannish origin is too late per lore
Therefore, I like the Christopher's Silmarillion selection
And eagles and huan were of one Vala each. Eagle of manwe and huan of orome.
I am just saying that otherwise the Valar seem powerful enough themselves and the catholic world view is not always true in Tolkien's writings.
My own theory about the Orcs come from the idea that the first of them were Elves but forced into a new form. We know that Morgoth, Sauron, and the Witch King had some kind of power over souls and I believe this is the key to the Orcs creation. Morgoth captured some of the Elves and experimented on their bodies and spirits, after learning how easy it was to reshape their souls and turn them evil, Morgoth removed the Elves souls and put them into new bodies. I think he might have used a type of primate, because Orcs have a lot of ape-like features. This is likely because we know that souls can be put into other things. Sauron made werewolves by use evil spirits and the Barrow-wights are dead bodies with evil souls inside them. We also have the Silent-Watchers which are statues housing evil souls. This idea make since to me, because it uses things that Tolkien himself write down in the books and it explained why the Orcs are so animal-like. Again this is just my theory, so I could be wrong.
Release or a miracle.
Really enjoy the story! Well done!
Could you do a video on the full tale of Aldarion and Erendis. Great work as usual
The soul being trapped in trapped in a body while the only thing it can do is watch in terror is very terrifying
If by one end the idea of orcs as beasts in humanoid form is at odds with passages such as shaggrat and gorbag making plans among themselves (although that could be seen as "treachery" implanted in them by Morgoth), also the "corrupted men and elves" origin does not make sense with the end of orcs when Sauron falls. At the fall of Barad-dur, differently from men (beings with free-will), that keep fighting for years with the Gondor armies, orcs (and all other non-human servants of sauron) simply flee like "ants without a queen", like mindless beasts, going into the wild to slowly disappear, and they are never mentioned again as a threat to free people in the coming 4th age (in RotK), while the men continue to act in Sauron's allegiance. It is implied (at least in this point in RotK) that orcs were fully deppendant of Sauron's will to think or act in a "willed" manner, without that, they reverted to an almost mindless state (some orcs even throw themselves at the pits that open when the black gate cracks). Perhaps Tolkien's vision hasn't changed yet at that point of the legendarium? Whatever it was, doesn't seem we have a definitive origin that can conciliate those different depictions yet...
05:12 This is why I love Tolkien's works. Evil must be struck down and purged immediately and without inflicting suffering. This narrative and that of the Jedi in Star Wars were the heroic ideals I grew up with.
It's really sad how in the 21st century we got so many twisted and depraved heroes (IE, Jack Bauer from "24") who revel in torturing and doing horrific things in the name of "good," apparently okay as long as they are doing it, not the villains. Failing to see that such acts are inherently and irredeemably evil. If a hero stoops to the villain's level, then that is a flaw or a mistake made, often understandably, in the throes of battle, not something to be celebrated and portrayed as good and righteous.
I think the last option is the best origin for the Orks (followed closely by the classic Elves version)
However I would like to say that his opinion of animals not having souls makes me very uncomfortable and I highly doubt he had any pets.
Agree. As a dog owner, I can assure you that animals do have soles and different personalities.
That is the best explanation I’ve heard thus far. I have been reading Tolkien since the early 1980s, and could never quite accept entirely any origin for the orcs. There was always an inconsistency. If they were tortured elves, how were their souls reconciled to Mandos? Would they not be immortal? Why, then we’re other captives such as Gwindor not made into orcs? Obviously, orcs were far more numerous in population to the elves, and given elves’ low propensity to bear many children, it seems unlikely that orcs only originate from elves Morgoth (and later Sauron) managed to capture. Even an unnaturally robust breeding program could not yield the vast hordes that show up at each of these battles. I find it more digestible that orcs were fashioned from a template of tortured elves whose spirits were cast out from their bodies. If Aule could create soulless moving creatures in the Dwarves, should we then not suppose Melkor, first among the Valar in skill and power, should have this potential? Clearly, orcs are soulless beings.
You kind of also could think of them as simply living machines, they move and have programs that allow them to think and reason but they do not have souls for they are machines of flesh and blood
You hit a home run with this one. Just when I thought I had heard enough about the subject you weaved a wonderful and harrowing tale. Thank you! Good choice in background music also, whose the composer?
Thanks so much! And thank you for the Super!
Eye opener of an episode. Trapped souls in evil bodies is terrifying and shows the darker thoughts Tolkien may have carried from his time in WW1. Never a poor video dude!!
I prefer the version with them as corrupted Elves. The Orcish souls will be redeemed at the end of the world at last, because no ensouled being beyond ultimate redemption to Eru.
Oh i feel the thirst for a new Middle Earth game, thank you for the video, great quality as always 😊
Y'know...in a way, Morgoth did get what he wanted...life he could twist solely to serve him. And he'd make them unable to escape his control, even if they desperately wanted to.
Evil is not born...it is made.
"The Many Origins of Debbie" should be the next one
The back and forth on the origin of the orcs could also be a conceit by Tolkien, in the sense that he frames his work on the legendarium as that of a translator of found works from the distant past, where there may be conflicting documentary evidence for multiple origin stories.
So, if he "found" multiple conflicting accounts, then simply translated them, then put forward the one that had the most supporting "evidence" as the most likely "canonical" story, he could then go back and revisit the other origin tales and intellectually debate the merits or drawbacks of each.
I prefer a possibility for orc redemption over being fully evil. To me that seems to fit better in the world Tolkien created.
What culture do the Orcs represent in real life?
Southern English
One needs only to look at Smeagol......
The will of Sauron......... & The Ring.......
Nice work dude thanks
To me it seems to come full circle: If the orcs have no fea and were akin to animals could morgoth have not just made them from rocks as Tolkein originally planned?
I think the problem here is believing that a soul= intelligence/speaking, or that a soul is a requirement for these things. This need not be true, whatever your beliefs may be I doubt there are many that will think, if it's ever created, that true AI will have a soul, yet AI will likely be more intelligent than man and more than capable of language. Orcs could be the same concept, intelligent and capable of speech and independent actions but no more having a soul than an AI would, think of orcs like fleshy T800 terminators.
Imagine Orcs and Elves as the Hunter-Gatherers of ages past upon our Earth. Their difference is their way of life. An Orc will hunt for food with a little bit of gathering, while an Elf will gather food (provided by Yavanna) with a little bit of hunting. As such Orcs have been selectively bred by Melkor, Elves and Men to gather under one Master and ravage the lands of Arda in Warbands. Eurasia has seen such savagery, and I believe Tolkien didn't struggle with their Origins. An Orcish lifestyle exists in nature (Melkor), it exists in gathering (Elves) and it exists in societies (Men). Cannibalism.
@11:18 this chilled my own soul.
@11:04 this chilled my own soul.....if that's the case then that must be the Melkor's most evil deed.
In short, no one really knows, not even Tolkien himself
Which speaks to the beauty of Tolkien's world building.
@@em333 No, to its stupidity. Tolkien ruined his books with contradictory fundie voodoo, he was so close to realizing things indoctrinated into him in childhood were complete nonsense no amount of rationalizing and tweaking will ever fix, too bad he never made that last step and realized how dumb he was in doing so...
May be Adar knew. In the Amazon web series.
Which is just realistic, really. We don't have all the answers in real life either.
This is one of the aspects I don't like being left unknown
1:19 Hold up, when did we get gnomes?
That's Tolkien's early name for the Noldor. I think it appears in the Histories of Middle Earth and some of the appendices of other works. Luckily the books have decoder rings to figure out all the renaming/story changes over the years.
To summarize it up. 🤔
For me the origin of ors/goblins is as such:
When elves awakened in the Arda they were partly captured by Melkor. Who tormented them and mutated them to be orcs. Of course they died in the process - so the orks are soulless. Souls of died elves are in the halls of Mandos, where they can be restored, healed (in very long time) and then they will be rebirth in new body in Valinor (maybe after their body is killed as orkish).
My personal explanations of unclear moments:
In the wars afterwards and through the deception and kidnapping Melkor could reproduce more orks from elves. But I don't think they could make children at all. And I think orks are made from elves and goblins (lesser orks) are from men. So Saruman just mutated them together in the dirt pit with his machinery and evil magic to make Uruk Hai. So when wars will be over and all "evil guys" are dealed with - noone will be able to create new orks and they will be perished forever.
And I am totally agreed with Tolkien: during war and battle noone of free people should behave like ork - no torture and harassment of any kind.
Because it will contaminate the fea and Melkor wants just that.
So let's form a Fellowship and go in search of the Lost Writings of the Orcs!
This is how such creatures work in my setting. I am also Catholic and struggle with the same dilemma. I have separated out free-willed races as simply exaggerations/fantastical human races (they are still ultimately human - I have a soft issue with creatures like Tolkien's elves) and other seeming-intelligent creatures I call the 'sapients'. The sapients have mortal souls a la animals and some live for much longer to compensate. The sapients have a fixed culture that is irrevocably tied to their species, as well as their behavior. There are no goblins that aren't violent and don't steal; there are no bormin who do not construct anything more sophisticated than dirt huts, etc.
This excerpt from St Alphonsus Ligouri makes me dwell all the deeper on this matter:
"If on this earth where were two classes of men, one mortal, and the other immortal, and if the former saw the latter entirely devoted to the acquisition of earthly goods, would they not exclaim: O fools that you are! You have it in your power to secure the immense and eternal goods of Paradise, and you lose your time in procuring the miserable goods of this earth, which shall end at death. And for these you expose yourselves to the danger of the eternal torments of hell. Leave to us, for whom all shall end at death, the care of these earthly things."
What would be considered indulgence and greed from our morality as immortal souled beings would actually be the pursuit of the natural good for such a mortal race...
I love how tolkien invented the orcs and have become so popular that they are in almost all of the most popular fantasy series
I got the Feeling if he was alive people would probably have to ask him for permission to use them in their fantasy worlds since he created them they have to pay him to use them in their fantasy worlds
To be honest, most modern orcs have very little in common with Tolkien's orcs. They are so different nowadays that they are orc only in name.
They have some pretty similar monsters with similar names from Latin and European mythology.
The orcs in media, like World of Warcraft, are redeemable and are natural beings. Tolkien’s orcs (goblins) are near-irredeemable and unnatural creatures. In Warcraft, Thrall (Go'el) is the epitome of Orc redemption for the war crimes committed during the First War and the Second War on Azeroth.
@@ryankwon8785Based Tolkein
I am reminded of Nephilim, empty vessels ripe for use by another spirit. The spirits of Melkor and Sauron could drive them to do his will, and when they were gone the orcs became rudderless and almost unable to function.
I have what I believe to be a solution to the conundrum that both satisfies the largest body of canon and fits conveniently in the professor's own worldview. It has as is basis the Christian concept of the triune nature of man (as seen in 1 Thes. 5:23) as being comprised of body, soul and spirit. Tolkien even mentioned it when he surmised that they were similar to dogs, horses and parrots...orcs, as eagles, trolls, and dragons, are soulish in nature rather than spiritual. They possess corporeal forms (bodies) with mind, emotion, and will (souls) but lack fëa (spirits). And this is compatible with the concept of orcs as corrupted elves if one presumes that upon their final phase of their corruption that the elvish fëa was given up, but their corporeal forms were left behind for Melkor to preserve and modify to his preference as an abomination to Eru.
Very interesting 👌
One of the many gifts given us by RoP was how it approached this very topic with earnestness, rather than simply reducing the Orcs to cannon-fodder the way the movies did. Here, on the other hand, the orcs are still the enemy, and a brutal enemy that has to be fought "with the utmost severity" as Nerwen very clearly vows to do, but they're still living beings same as Elves and Men.
Potentially, Morgoth could have just corrupted a few elves and then bred them with some sort of ape like animal species to get orcs. I very much like the idea that they are extensions of his will and powered by his malice. (The idea being that Morgoth's corruption of Arda will essentially always keep the orcs going even when he isn't around until Arda is remade)
Orcs could also be a mix between corrupted elves, men, and animals to get something completely new but also resembling other creatures
I wonder how Tolkien would frame this question if he were writing today, considering a SLIGHT weakening of Catholic dogma regarding animals and "souls" since Tolkien's time.
If real life humans can become just as depraved as orcs then I see no reason they had to be soulless beasts rather than evil people.
I just wrote about this in my latest short story! In it I said that all creatures have a spark of the secret fire in them except for orcs and trolls.
Where theres a whip
Theres a way
I prefer the idea that they were corrupted elves.
Their eversion to sunlight indicates that they only maintain a 2nd hand interpretation of reality handed down to them..
Highly religious
Hi, i have a question that's been bugging me about Sauron's telepathic connection to the one ring that was portrayed by Peter Jackson in his series of movies. This channel seems to me to be the preeminent channel in all things JRR Tolkien so i thought I'd ask it here in the hopes of getting an answer. In the movies, when frodo put on the ring it seemed to reveal his presence to Sauron and the ring wraiths, transporting him, in a way, into their plane of existence. Why then, for the many decades that smeagol/gollum & Bilbo possessed and used the ring did it not effect the same results on them? Was this effect just something Peter Jackson added via creative license to his movies or is it based on Tolkiens works and I just missed it when I read all four books years ago? It just stands to reason (to me anyway) that if Sauron was tied to the One Ring that anytime someone slipped it on their finger it would alert Sauron. Thanks .
That final origin makes the most sense in the context of Tolkien's faith and other establish lore. Christianity has divided and wrestled between factions & individuals, despite doctrine stating that all men should be redeemed. For the Orcs of Middle Earth to be alive they must have souls, and for the Elves and Men to forget that fact is all too relatable.
I think the best explanation is that orcs originated from elves. Orcs were really intelligent creatures - Tolkien himself stated in Hobbit " they can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves - it is not unlikly that they invented some of the machines especially the ingenious devices for killing large number of people at once for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them....
My own head canon will always align with what is said on the matter in The Silmarillion.
6:59 To be fair, if men and elves could have children together, there's no reason for men and orcs to not be capable of the same, if they are indeed tortured elves.
Yeah. I wonder why there are no elf-orcs or orc-elves though. They should be super compatible. Unless I just haven't heard of them maybe? Seems to get a little muddled when you start getting into the weeds of who has souls and what that means. Do orc-men have souls? What about orc-men-men? Men-orc-men-men?
Awesome
That alone is best proof Tolkien was a regular artist. He created something great, but was conflicted on explanation of where it came from. In the end, it doesn’t really matter that much, and gives them an air of mystery and intrigue for what we love his universe.
The art can be good while flawed. The story would certainly be better if there weren't any orcs though, and at the end of the Lord of the rings, Aragorn then had to deal with all of sauron's supporters
11:46 so orcs are no more than zombies.
Separating the souls and bodies is just as impossible as anyone being irredeemable. Souls are not vague spirits and "our true selves" trapped in meatvessels, like gnostics would have it, rather it is being both souls and bodies which separate us from the Angels on the one hand and animals on the other, making us uniquely human.
Here's a fun to what if question how different do you think the second and third ages would be if the lands of the first age never sunk under the sea after the war of Wrath