IS This Poker Cheating!?!?!? | Real Poker Questions
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2020
- Today I will lay out a poker scenario and ask you if you consider it poker cheating!!?? I have bought Pokerstars and renamed it JoeyStars. My cousin Timmy is looking to play a poker game and asked if he can play on my poker site. I invite my friend Jim to come play Timmy but Jim can't afford to play. I offer to stake Jim in the game at a 50/50 split. I am also taking rake from the game in order to pay for "expenses."
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Limitless for the pod!
Brooo. Love your channel. Still waiting for the phil ivey blackjack investigation though🙄Just came of a blackjack win and it reminded me😏♠️
glad to see you break this down for the uninitiated. It's important. Hell.... I played cards for almost 9 years b4 i ever thought on these things.
Thought you mighte a laugh out of this Joey ua-cam.com/video/WGVBOXHU4sY/v-deo.html
the problem with online poker is that so much is not transparent.
"I'm a peaceful guy, I just wanted to dismantle a billion dollar company." LOL
I’m so sorry to hear that your cousin lost his mother.
Thanks Matthew
Did Mike Postle start a poker site and this is what he's doing?
ye
I think it’s unethical to stake players in your own site because it’s a conflict of interest. You now have an interest in certain players winning and others losing, which is inappropriate.
I don’t think it’s cheating though. But you are a greedy bastard! 🤣
The Borgata would like to talk to Jill
Isnt this how the stock market and prop trading works? Timmy = investor, joeystars = bank, jim = trader that works at bank
Anyone have loose Larry or dumb derricks number ?
867-5309 it'll be turned on in a week lost my pmt I had.
I know two players actually named Derek the Donkey Pitera and Dave Pussy Panella. They really exist!
You just described every LA home game. Lol
And NY too.. except in NY everyone owes the sheet
100% ny clubs. Only on top of that the owner also plays in the game :)
mitchitsu the best is when the owners dump into their own game can make it a very good game!
I played 1-3NL with a $10 rock at a club in NYC last year. The rake was 10% up to $20.
Absolute Poker, nuff said. I turned an initial $50 buyin into $4800 and they wouldn't pay me and then the big bust came. US players got hosed. I will never trust online poker again, and that kind of rake is criminal. That's even worse than local home games by me.
I hope joeystars remembers that more rake is actually a good thing for players
It's actually..... GOOD !
@@joeingram1 For "The players" who know how to play the real game.
Sorry I was focusing on not chewing gum or being Sam Farha
explain???
That's why Wall Street has the laws it does but they still don't work.
God damn joey I am so glad you're back in the content streets!! Hopefully one day we can get OOL together!
I see why the question was raised, but as long as the software is secure and the play is not influenced to favor another player, it isn't cheating. The issue comes down to a simple thing. Are you going to look at what you have or what other's have. The deals have no influence on the wins and loses of the fish. If the fish were to win, they would have seen their profit in full.
The wealthy and the talented have their ways of accruing more wealth. That is seen here. I personally do not demonize the rich, though I grew up and still am lower class. I think the divide in answers may come down to similar political and ideological lines. You could argue that it is exploitative, but the wins are not guaranteed, and it is a victimless "crime," given that the fish lost because of their inability to play well.
Worry what you can get into your pocket, and less what's going into others. Any losses or gains, assuming the platform is running fairly, are the direct consequence of the players skill and luck.
I'll continue playing my 15 cent 30 cent games once a week.
Dunno if this is cheating but this exact thing is happening in private poker games right now across North America.
Great video!! Soo true. The worst part is people actually do this to their "friends."
Software can't cheat...only people do. Recently found out someone i trusted very much was doing this, will never go near a game he is involved in again.
It's all fair if the players are aware. I only say this because playing with free money can alter someone's playstyle and mindset, so it should be publicized if someone is staked for fairness and strategy.
this rake structure is better than pokerstars where can i sign up?
Great video. Made me chuckle. Was to high to follow exactly wtf but hey 👌 Jill Ivey 😂😂🃏
Thank you for your integrity Joey. Thanks for sticking up for us. #GTOPapi
@ALL PROS which know this topic related to the sites well enough, which site to play? is run it once poker the best decision?
“ In the poker game of life Joey stars is the rake........... The f’n RAKE!”
😂😂
Sounds sketchy for the site owner to stake players. Since you own the software how do the non-staked players know it’s fair?
GREAT QUESTION - they don't
joeingram1 if they did somehow have a way to verify that the games are not being altered in any way would that make it better?
I mean poker sites should be held to some form of oversight as it deals with gambling and many laws in place to make sure it’s running legally
@@bwalsh1105 every law has loop holes or ways to manoeuvre around.
Theoretically, you could use blockchain technology for this issue.
Joey stars is killing it! 😆😂🤣
Yeah this is every home game I know and every ppp game I know. I don’t play in them for this reason. I crush online but then can’t even beat fish in these games as they all see flops with me and play hard to push me out of pots but then they check down with each other
Do U know how i can get ahold of loose lary and degen dave?
I tried, but I just couldn't wrap my head around the proposed scenario 🤔
As the site owner, you staking a player is a conflict of interest.
Let me ask you this scenario tho if we can verifiably know that the actual game of poker there playing isn’t being altered in anyone’s favor in anyway and the players are aware that there could be possible staking is it still cheating as the staking is just allowing him to play not win necessarily
So sponsoring players and buying them into tournaments is also cheating? Asking since every site does this....
Not cheating, just an absurdly high rake that no one should accept.
nardinit the big sites make it known who their pros are. Joeystars didn’t let anyone know who it’s “pros” were.
Scott high rake? Live 1/2 rakes $5 max...most of the time at least $1 for high hands and $2-$5 max per hand...that’s at least 1 BB per hand unless it’s raise fold...of course they have more expenses but yea 1 BB is not a high rake
Does anyone know which website to be trust in Vietnam to play ???
@joeingram1 do you have a Regulation Authority in the US or it’s State dépendant?
In France we do have one but we don’t really know what they’re doing, beside being bribed I supposed lol
Only regulation for this scammers is zastava m70ab2
I've seen this kind of shit at homegames and its the reason I've never gone back to those places
This is the reason I hate the cash out option on Pokerstars. Firstly the money disappears off the table if the winner has cashed out, but more importantly PS has a vested financial interest in the result of the hand. Without the option, PS doesn't care who wins, but since they are now acting as bookmaker on their own game, they do.
Well Ivey paid more rake then anybody else so in that sense this game is not that fair to him, but he still wining. GG network dose something similar to this, reg do get less RB then fish on that site.
Would you mind explaining how exactly does the recs make more rakeback than a multitable grinder?
@@arvindbadsha3356 GG Poker uses a PVI (player value index) that is used to determine how much rakeback you earn. It's very similar to the variable points cost of Stars Rewards chests on PokerStars (except the rewards on GG Poker are MUCH better). If done correctly (which I believe GG Poker are at least attempting to do), it actually benefits everyone. Better rewards for losing players keeps them in the game longer, resulting in softer games. Winning players make more money from weaker games than they do from rakeback, so shouldn't complain about the lower rewards (even though they always do because of short-sighted greed). The only real issue with GGPoker's PVI system is that it's not open and transparent. It used to at least be partially explained on their website, but not any longer.
Huh sounds like every club on pokerrrr2 I've seen....
Then you might as well join his. Since he's not sure it's cheating.😂 He's just trying to justify his behavior, through the comments of 99% of clueless fish that follow the channel.
Greed is a hell of a drug.
Joe......you have the platform to speak up about poker cheatings of all sorts. These poker sites are nothing, but bunch of scammers and destroying the game we love very much. Casinos are also cheating poker players through their automatic shuffling machines. They can be programmed to create more hands so the casino can take more rake, and also able to setup certain players to lose if they like. We need to put a stop to this. The current poker ambassadors are disgrace.
if the game was fair how could it be cheating?
Well did the laser hit the mesh lol
I need to hear your thoughts on this .. At a poker club in my country , in tournaments .. the house stakes player X for unlimited amount of rebuys. How do u guys feel about that ? Knowing ur gonna go play a 100e buyin tournament and there are a few guys who can do unlimited rebuys until they make a stack then they go 50/50 with the club if they cash
Sucks but not much you can do....It's like being staked by a whale where money isn't an issue....No way of regulating that therefore should be allowed. The guy with more money will always have the chance to bully people with less money in poker, that's how it is....
This is extremely profitable for a player if the rebuys are going into the prize pool. In fact, targeting these players can be very beneficial since you know they'll stack off light to try to run it up at no cost
Will JoeyStars be legal to play in all 50 US states?
very very interestin concepts .. these r happenin in tournaments & in many online sites i suppose ..correct? .. my opinion is that mainly joey stars is doing something illegal . which can become proper robbery ..
Love from Singapore
Standard practice, sad part is some RECs bought false narratives about HUDs & pros and think they are losing less in these games.
Sounds like Thanksgiving is going to be a bit awkward
Does viktor blom play on this site?
Thanks! Joey, honesty this days Is like a fresh water.,. I got it, NEVER CASHOUT ON PS!!
ACR business model. Minus the rake variation.
Did you just play out The Full Tilt Poker scenario?
This is clearly a Poker Bros story
One day.. I hope to meet you, shake hands with you. Just to thank you for all good things you are doing for poker. Thats it!
Joey just described WPN economy.
Isn't this already what most players do by looking at other players stats? Being the owner of the site though does make this a little weird.
If the software doesn't favour anyone, and people aren't colluding I don't see how is that cheating. You can do private games and do whatever you want basically... And everyone agreed to play with such a rake structure(which isn't too far off a live game rake structure). So there you go.
Finally someone explained the true purpose of stables! Do people really think (young) poker players can fund the play for other players? So where are they getting their funds... Should be pretty self-explainable.
4:19 ... Jill Ivey must've really had a tough childhood being a guy named Jill... Kinda reminds me of a boy named Sue
Don't forget to take a dollar for the jackpot!
This is why I just play at a friends house and don't go to the casinos
Do a video on Stables.
Good business bad ethics/morals? You catch more bees with honey than with vinegar. Is it a good longevity business model?
Yes it’s dodgy ...not quite literally cheating. Unless you stake everyone ... can’t have a vested interest in 1 if the players in a competition that you are holding.
Poker is an honest game, filled with scumbags. This isn’t cheating, but it’s scummy. I don’t enjoy playing with scumbags, which is why I try and stay away from home games. I wish the game was just about playing the people and the cards.
Described the app ecosystem in 6min
That’s a pretty nice Ponzi scheme. Lol
If a rake is not cheating or unethical, and staking someone is not cheating or unethical, then how is doing both of them cheating or unethical? What is the conflict of interest that has arisen from doing both? I dont see the problem here.
Okay, assuming you have no way to manipulate the software (many have mentioned conflict of interest being in charge of it), this is actually fairly complicated. I would say it has more to do with transparency. If everyone knew up front your rake was going to be like that, and everyone knew who Jim and Jill were and had the ability to determine for themselves that they were good players and likely massive favorites against them, I would say it is not cheating, I would say this is the nature of private/home games.
It doesn't have to be cheating to be morally/ethically wrong, however, and I think anytime you start seeing instances where the person not playing is making far more money than a person playing possibly could it becomes sketchy.
I don’t think owning the site makes it cheating. But I think it would be cheating if you were staking these guys and also playing in the game yourself.
As they teach you in 1L, caveat emptor.
- Mike McDermott
Well cheating isn't a legal term. Fraud? Maybe, maybe not. But all it takes is for someone to be convinced you were defrauding them to wrap you in a civil lawsuit.
This business model is the basis for every pokerbros club/union I've ever seen. Is it unethical? Very good question. I grind the plo games in these clubs regularly(with 100% of my own action) and I'm well aware that a large portion of the competent players are staked by their agent/club manager.
Big Papi back with DA BIG NEWS
Online cash poker is so stacked against you it’s only worth playing for fun
Oh wait, has it not been like this for years...?
I'm guessing this is how PokerBros/PPPoker are operating?
I quit online poker cause the rake is so ridiculous these days...
JoeyGOD
Embargo on joeystars for the high rake
I have a mate.. we call him El Foldo
Cheating in the sense that the other players do not have full information, tell the bad players that joeystars is backing the other player and let them have a choice to play, what if joeystars stakes 10 top players in a big buy in tourney(100 players) and they all late reg with minutes to go, 50% min cash and one has a deep run is this cheating?
Isn’t this basically the premise of Molly’s game?
What is this Molly’s game lol. Well the pre Molly’s game with the Spider-Man hahahah
Really $10 rake in $25/$50 game seem very reasonable
From what I understand, you're describing what commonly happens in these poker app clubs, with the slight difference being that the club owners deny access to the winning players if they don't agree to give them a cut, whereas JoeyStars (a poker site) presumably lets everyone play that wants to. I don't think it's "cheating" because everyone is still playing their own FOUR cards and the results depend on the skill of the players. Ultimately, it's a bad short term deal for the good players because they lose out on their winnings, and even worse if the player pool gets depleted before they can jump back in with 100% of themselves. The ideal profit scenario for a site is to have the players pass the money back and forth, never withdraw, and let the house rake rake rake. JoeyStars' staking deal lets them getting closer to this by capturing unraked dollars that they didn't get a chance at because Jill and Jim are too good and won the money too fast.
Where do I sign up for JoeyStars?
TIMMY!!!!!
its a bit scamy , but not really cheating if all players are aware of the % rake at the start and are all playing in isolation (not passing chips) and are playing to win.
You didn't hafta turn Phil into Jil Ivey... I won't look at him the same anymore
Shills have been used in poker rooms for decades. Most poker rooms will even state that they use them. Now what would be interesting is if instead of players you used bots to play them programmed in GTO to beat the game.
This should be talked about a lot more.
joey stars gotta eat lmao
Your rake is so high.. No operator should have a stake in any player.. Shout out to apostle..
I think that as you describe it, it is not cheating. The problem is that you as the site owner might be tempted to do something unethical and illegal to increase your players chances of winning. If there is a dispute, how can you be impartial, you have staked one or several of the players, you have an incentive to side with them because you get half their winnings. it creates an environment where if the rec players find out that you staked other players, they may feel that they are playing on a site where they arent treated equally to the players you staked,even if you are fair in your running of the site and the game
How about if the site owner uses their knowledge of player histories to find the fish and place their staked players in the game, everything else being fair. Is that cheating?
@@rajasharma6414 I'm assuming the sites knowledge differs from what another player could get. Another way someone could look at this, is player staking is just undisclosed rake.
I wouldn’t consider this cheating but the guy you staking should get 1/2 the rakeback back imo
I just let those ads run to say thanks, man! Peace.
Jill Ivey only won you $2500? You should've staked Spike Postle
I think most experienced poker players already know this is how these sites make money ask Jeff Boski ACR
I think their cheating by the person that is staked basically getting RB since he’s teamed up with the owner which is unethical. Are they cheating with hole cards etc no, but they do have an unfair advantage/edge and in that case it’s cheating.
I mean “your” players aren’t guaranteed to win, I don’t think it’s cheating ...
2nd part gon up to much 50% of each player, dats just greedy and yes I'd like to say cheating with like rake, even if u did both rake high and taking 50% of winning
Oh, I understand now, this is what you have been doing.
It all depends on the size of the rake. If you're raking a high percentage from the pot then you're exploiting your cousin Timmy. I guess ten percent is fair. Your friends being backed by you in the game is not bad either. As long as there is no collusion between your friends or if the game is being cheated in favor for said friends.
sounds like youre talking avout Andrew Robl🤔🤔 He stakes most of good players in his games.
great conversation, and a great question. Is it cheating?? no not according to common rules of the game........is it something that is shady and shitty? absolutely and the people doing that(meaning yourself as the owner, and the ringers that you are bringing in and staking/taking a % of winnings) would NOT be wanting it to be common knowledge for fear that the poker community would shun them or negatively affect their ability to earn a living. I'm sure this happens, just like im sure that people involved go out of their way to keep their names out of it. i realize this is all a hypothetical and that you're not really buying the defunct site......but i'm sure it is based in a reality of some sorts......I LOVE when you start digging into shit!!!
I believe if you're going to host a game, you shouldn't have any stake of anyone playing. That way all the players know nothing weird is going on. That's just me though