How NOT to Negotiate
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- Опубліковано 20 жов 2024
- In S10 E13 of Wyrm Lyfe, Our lease is almost up and our Landlords don't want to talk to Phil anymore and so Doug has to step in to do the negotiations. What could go wrong?
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Have Frank send them a list of the violations of the building and that you are withholding rent until corrected. While this is going on, get construction started on your own building. By the time they are done dicking around and get the items fixed, you can just tell them you're moving.
i feel this is a way to get sued for rent with holding
@@almightyderpy If they are legit issues and they take it to the county commission, they absolutely can in MA. And are not obligated to pay back rent when the repairs are made. But can be taken to count by the landlord and plead their case and only have to pay back a percentage, or none at all. But this all varies by state, but I looked it up and this is perfectly legal in MA. To do this while building their own space is petty AF, but still legal.
@@almightyderpy If there are issues with the building itself causing it to be out of code, withholding wouldn't be as significant an issue because the landlord is renting out a commercial space unfit for commercial use.
"Ah... I don't think it was a success" -Dale
By far the best line in this whole episode
Dale is the lowkey MVP of Wyrmwood. I get happy when ever he shows up. Even though I have a different discipline of Engineering than him, I feel a kinship with him.
@@averagegatsby I'm Computer Science (it *is* Engineering) and my Older brother is a ME.
We feel kinship with Dave. Oh, and my Dad would absolutely love to take his job, if he knew the skills. My Dad was practically ready to throw hands when I described to him the role of essentially an Industrial Engineer with "on-hands" experience, aka how I interpret Dave's job
I always enjoy seeing Dale. Dude just keeps it real and seems to really know his sutff.
"That's Your Offer? We reject it." LOL
I can't help but feel that Doug saying that they went from $3,000,000 to $30,000,000 in revenue was a bad move on his part. You could practically hear the cash register sounds coming from inside the landlord's heads when they heard that.
they started with 1x revenue with 1x space = 1x rent. TO 10x revenue to 8x space = 8x rent, so it's not that bad of a move
That kind of information is typically disclosed in your new rental agreement. It isn't like that is a mystery to them. Some corporate landlords will ask for information on your finances between contracts and you can tell them to get bent, but when new contracts are signed finances are on the table.
In reality, the people who own the building probably know that. Because they know how much bigger the realestate is. So they can extrapolate how much more money they are making. They have a good idea on how much the equipment is and how much power it takes to use them to gauge output.
In most cases thats stuff you will need to disclose to the landlord anyway.
I own 3 businesses right now and for everyone I had to provide financial documents and future financial expectations.
When I moved one business just two blocks down the road I had to give them the numbers for the past 3 years before they would even talk to me.
What i dont get is why Wyrmwood don't buy some land and build some locals, no more lease problems! With 30 + millions annual that's not a problem!
I cannot BELIEVE that the landlords agreed to be on camera! This is going to be so spicy!!
The owner isn't stupid. Doug said that he liked WyrmLyf, so the man walked in already knowing how this would go.
Hell, *everyione* knew how this would go when Doug started out with "Wood prices go down...", was immediately corrected by the owner, and then Doug does a 180.
@@jaycee7901 To be fair to doug, and really this is the ONLY part of that train wreck that i can defend, doug didn't initially say lumber prices were down, he said when you buy lumber in larger quantities the overall price goes down...Which Is often true. Whether or not the base cost of lumber is going up as a whole, you are still adjusting that base cost against any discounts you get for buying massive quantities of said wood. Whether that has any baring to real-estate or rental agreements at all is a whole different matter.
The landlord did refuse to say ANYTHING specific though. Doug said reduce the price by 50 c per square foot, and he denied, but essentially refused to negotiate on camera, by saying he'd have to think about it.
The landlord has a great outfit btw.
Personally, I would have had Dave tally up all the building violations and issues that haven't been addressed. Bring a bill of requirements that must be met. Then get 2 or 3 quotes on comparable properties and use that as your baseline negotiation. I don't know what the corporate rental market is like in that region, it may take the 6 month or 3 years to find a new tenant or they may already have applicants in the wing, however you want to know that information before walking into that room.
☝️this
Already seen these guys looking at different spaces with Moses. So they are currently thinking about it obviously but it's just so hard in this economy. Regardless of the market the recession is really going to put a dampener on doing anything substantial like finding a new property
@@VoiceNerd Like Doug said, it was more about optionality than looking for a space. He wanted information to know what is going on in the market to see if it is worth/able to buy this property or another. Or to expand the business.
Wyrmwood should have paid Phil's fee and had him sit at the table anyway out of spite.
I feel like Phil has said something similar to Doug
There are contracts and laws that may prevent something like this .
@@compsolt I’d they higher him to negotiate, but just tell him not to say anything then that covers it all
Tenants do not club landlords more than the opposite. Landlords are already in the business of investing in property and needing to know the legalities. Tenants are likely to know as much and simple are trying to survive. Landlords are in more of a position to use law and investment strategies to get what they need.
While watching the episode, I said "I'll bet we see Frank soon". Sees ending comment. Lmao!! 🤣
The IDGAF mentality is good content. Businesswise, not so good. Looking forward to the conclution of this debacle :D
Kinda depends on a lot of different factors. I have a IDGAF attitude about a lot of things and its actually worked out much better for me in many cases. Its costs money a few times but overall its made me more money and gotten me further ahead.
Course it all depends.
The second tragedy I realized today is when I found the English language to be lacking, and utterly incapable of generating a word more appropriate, or more impactful, to describe Doug's "negotiation tactics" *other* than the word "debacle".
If you aren't willing to walk away from a negotiation, you are already negotiating from a position of weakness.
@@jaycee7901 "Fiasco", maybe?
Did Wyrmwood NOT have an ace in the hole? You have nowhere to go, you've grown mighty quickly, and you TOLD your landlord this? OK, you're probably screwed. Figure out what you owe Phil and assume that's part of the rent cost if you stay. He can do the work from behind the curtain to make sure you're getting a decent deal, then you all walk away.
And, next time, have another option IN HAND b4 you start in with your ancient Lo-Pan landlord.
This is the content I come here for. 🤣🤣🤣
If you guys ever plan to expand to Ohio check out the old mills pride cabinet factory in Waverly.. several factory buildings in town ready to set up in.
have the same phone and case as Doug!
Frank's already involved!
The moment I saw that guy (and that was before seeing the talk about the violations since I skipped ahead), I instantly had him pegged as being a bit of a skeez ball. Someone who loves the position/status/money, outwardly presents as mild mannered and well spoken, but internally is constantly scheming and will screw you the first opportunity that comes along where it won't come back on him.
You can really tell that Doug learned to debate and argue from Ben Shapiro.
"Comment: How long before Frank gets involved?"
Question: Why isn't Frank involved -already-?
That was hard to watch. That wasn't what I would ever call "negotiating".
Well its like they said at the beginning. The owners hold all the cards. They know Wyrmwood is getting a fair price, and they know that they can easily replace them.
Hence the title of the video.
I agree with you though; good grief! The owners need to talk to someone who isn’t putting on a show for the camera.
@@bclarkca9113 Oh thats why they don't want the Realtor there.
If I was on the Board of Directors and I saw this video of Doug’s “Negotiating” I would immediately ask Jason to take over this situation. Regardless of how much Jason would HATE doing it.
I think Dale is the guy you want.
Lol, Jason was in the room… I think if he didn’t speak up, he feels the same way.
@@TheSchnook you don’t contradict or overstep your CEO in front of an outside party.
@@zbetz You do know Jason is actually the CEO, right?! 🤣
He gave it back to Doug .. they didn't make a huge video on it but it is mentioned in one of them
i cant believe the entire first half of the video was absolutely just shitting on your landlords omfg
Only 5 minutes in and Doug has very strange views of the power dynamics between landlords and tenants. Tenants have almost no power. Even the laws that protect them don't do shit in a lot of cases unless there's a reliable and cheap way to get them enforced.
Phil explaining to DOug what he did in the conversation :D
Once they move I want someone from wormwood to drive past once every month untill it's rented out again it will be a while I think
That was so uncomfortable. The landlord holds all the power until you have a place to move whether that’s buying your own space or finding another space that’s cheaper.
Couldn't even bring myself to watch it once the landlords arrived. This isn't something I think we should be seeing.
Moving _all that equipment_ is going to cost _thousands_ just in the lugging it from this place to the next place. Not including the downtime from needing to move, ensure the next place is wired properly (spoiler: it won't be), and configuring everything back to the tolerances they were at before moving. I can't help but feel that Doug is going to learn why "tenants have all the power" is not true outside of news headlines for residential properties in some states.
Source: just some guy on the internet with fuckin zero experience with any of this stuff. This is all conjecture from an outsider.
Yeah, it's one of those things where it is mutually beneficial to maintain status quo. Landlord gets a paycheck, wyrmwood keeps the space. Realistically, there is a number that the landlord can push where it's worth it more for wyrmwood to stay and eat the cost, then to lose however much money they would gaming the whole shop down for months while they move and reset.
@@mattbanak8917 agree with you totally. Tenants do have rights but that doesn’t really apply to “getting the best deal”. You need to have leverage and doug didn’t walk into that conversation with any leverage besides a bluff that they would move (which the owner called him out on).
I am constantly shocked that Doug is a successful business owner. How do you not pay your own realtor's fees, and instead expect your landlord to do it? And on top of that, ask for a rent decrease after not having any increase for many years, KNOWING that you are subleasing from someone paying over double what you are paying? This is like watching a college dropout represent himself in court
But that's the thing: He made his money speculating on crypto, not from Wyrmwood.
I wanna talk to my landlord like that! 🤣
Doug threatening to negotiate on his own behalf is like trying to negotiate a hostage situation, as the hostage taker, when you're holding a gun to your own head.
I gotta be honest... this felt cringey.
I get there can always be business friction between landlords and lessees, but that entire conference felt totally unprofessional, and as Jason to aptly put it, "a disaster." The guys didn't go into it with clear goals, points of negotiation, any hard limits... they just let the landlords show up and threw shit at the wall to see what stuck. There was no way they were going to agree to a 50 cent discount per square foot, and I imagine it felt a little insulting to the landlords that such an idea was even proposed.
How in the hell did they not have a subject matter expert present in this meeting to speak in their best interests? This really felt like they just shot themselves in the foot in front of the landlords for the WyrmLife content, and I cannot imagine this won't bite them later on.
I'm honestly surprised the landlord didn't throw it right back at them. "Oh, you want a 10% reduction in rent? I want you out of here by next month."
I couldn't agree more with every single part of this.
Hard agree on all points
@@DrigrX I mean. He basically did with that "crass" portion of the discussion. He just left the option on the table for them to stay.
Dale is just a funny dude, that tries to keep it real. If there is la Dale fanclub, I am part of it for sure.
Dale counting the words on the email had me dieing
I want to see a Recorded Wyrmlife when Frank watches this Video!!! 😂😂😂
"I guess that concludes negotiations.", Gimli.
Cannot wait for the future Frank episode
Trick question…. Frank is already involved
Frank should have been there from the start
Doug... 😅
👀
i just felt like i watched a kid argue with there parents about there allowence
Yep, exactly. This is one of those examples of Doug envisioning that he’s got it all figured out when really…
Save the money and build your own building. You have said your a bit coin millionaire, you clearly don't mind investing in yourself and your business. Buy some land somewhere with low tax near a major highway then build a box style Warehouse selling machines you have now buy and start a secondary manufacturing location as your equipment wears out shut down your location help your staff move and bam.. No more landlord.
Get a place in Nevada like Nye County that isn't Incorporated then zoning laws can f*** off and you can build your house on the top of the manufacturing plant if you still feel the need to make your business more efficient.
I'm surprised Frank wasn't in this episode already
Dougie doesn't give a FUUUU. Loved this ep.
I know two people who have tried to put businesses in the same complex, and both have had serious issues with the building and getting the landlord to do anything. Nothing here surprises me lol
As someone who works in commercial real estate, that meeting did not go well lol.
Wyrm Lyfe is better than any sitcom/reality tv/drama/whatever that is produced by any network/streaming service....period. You guys really do the most, I am so invested in your company just based on this show hahaha. I fucking love it!
As a Wyrmlife episode, this was great. As a negotiation...not so much. Negotiate for a two-year lease while you find a place to build a building. Talk to all of the other companies around the complex (because it looks like a HUGE space there) and offer to take them with you when you go. You build a big enough building for Wyrmwood to grow into AND rent out space to the people you know and like. Their rent will be fair and I'm willing to bet that it will offset the cost of the building.
This is one of those situations where, sure Wyrmwood got content, but it doesn't do many favors in making them look good, professional... prepared... like this really didn't need to be public.
Dale saying it wasn't a succes got me. XD
Its time to move and own something. :P
This is like a Sears debating for a kiosk price, when Sears is already probably getting Sears prices. Don't get me wrong, renting is a shit show, but debating for a lower price is a tough battle with little bargaining chips. Odds are, they are telling you the truth that you are paying less than what they could get a new tenant in for, and eating the cost in the interim would be recuperated by them signing long lease for a lot more than what you're already paying. Keeping you there is only worth it because they know you pay on time, not because of what you pay.
How does Doug walk with those balls? He knows its a bad idea, says its a bad idea, and still does the bad idea. Can't wait for Frank's return. Bad move on Doug's part but he owned it before it even happened, I respect the hell out of that
He does have like 5 kids...
I can't give Doug respect for doing something he admitted was a bad idea before hand. He really should just have Phil handle it and pay Phil's fees. It would be like someone suing Wrymwood demanding Doug represent himself in court. The only reason to do that is to put him behind the eight ball.
You have to be able to negotiate from a place of strength. Unless Wyrmwood is really going to move this landlord knows that he has the high ground. Also, never trust an old dude in a suit. He reminded me of the villain from every anime film ever.
Doug coming up against real capitalists and realizing he has no power in these negotiations.
Yeah, couple old dudes who've owned this building for ages were not intimidated by him being loud. The reason Moses was worthwhile is he does know if the taxes went up, if the energy costs went up, and he'd know by how much, and would likely be able to tell Doug what a commensurate rate was if he was looking for some kind of discount (though I think that was a bad angle to begin with, as it's not like Wyrmwood is going to rent less space all of a sudden if these guys stop giving them the price per square foot they want. And the difference between the kiosk and Sears, is how much foot traffic they bring to the mall, and the benefit of profit sharing that many malls have. A giant retailor tended to generate lots of profits and bring more customers who would go to other stores. Wyrmwood does not do that for these guys.) And they were right, Moses is Doug's guy, his fee is Doug's problem. They don't need a guy there, they've been doing this since before the sun first rose over Doug's cradle. His negotiation should have been to have Moses involved, and that's where it should have ended.
@@Lurklen not to mention it's pretty predatory to have them do LONG term leases
@@TychoNorris They want the long term so that if they DO cut wyrmwood a deal, they know they'll have a consistent tenant for the next X years instead of cutting wyrmwood a deal today and having them move out next year.
@@DrigrX Which, is more or less exactly what Doug wanted to do. He wanted the ability to just get out of there with no strings when they found another spot. Big surprise these dudes didn't want to go for that.
Doug had a bit of main character syndrome, and forgot that the people on the other side of the negotiating table have an agenda as well. The point of negotiation is to come to an accord, ideally while achieving as many of your personal goals as possible and not accruing unexpected costs. If you go in trying to leave the other party with nothing of substance, that's not a negotiation, that's a con.
@@TychoNorris No it isn't commercial leases are normally 10yrs+.
I wanna see the Frank and Phil Tag team extravaganza !!!! OOOHHH yeah Friday night at the local arena!!!!
Seems to me like they didn't show up to do any negotiations. They didn't know the current rate and had no counter offers planned. They were there to bs.
I bargain for a living, albeit in a different sector of the economy. This was an unmitigated disaster. Let Frank watch this footage so he can tell you.
Gosh the editing is so good on this show, I just can’t stop laughing on that Iain cut.
It was a disaster
All I can say is this: You'd better have a backup plan/location.
Frank!?
Dales comment made this for me, watching Doug negotiate was painful. Very Doug, though.
Love you doug....but man, those landlords had control of the room the whole time.
This is the first time Doug has negotiated a new lease agreement of this size, the guys across the table have likely done this dozens of times.
Well yeah, they own the building.
Not to say that Doug handled that well, but the scales are in the landlords favor heavily. It’s sucks but they could very well tell Wyrmwood to pound sand and move if they don’t like the terms.
Now they could be bluffing but they probably have contacts with businesses looking for a new place. And after this conversation, I wouldn’t be surprise if they’re lining up tenants. And even if they lose out on months of rent, they can just jack up the price per sq ft, and come out on top.
A) Frank should always be present at these type of meetings. Your track record speaks for that. B) the millisecond ya jumped from 3mil to 10 mil ya should have started planning your own building.
Doug is a firebrand, an idea guy, and an artesian. He is not, nor should ever be considered, savvy in playing the business political game. Dear lord, keep him away from the conference table, guys!
Is it just me or was it a bad idea to give the landlord the numbers of "in beginning we made 3 million a year, now we are making 30 million a year." To me, that only signals "good, you have money - and you have money to loose from parting ways with us". Sometimes things don't just cost the sum of its parts in measured units, but also in what it is worth too you. You must know, you are selling premium woodworking products. You probably just made it worse and you have anchored yourself higher.
That friendly looking gentleman grandpa just beat you with experience.
The Landlords are real business men haha i love it :D
Jesus wept, Doug. Telling your landlord you increased your earning tenfold is not how you handle that conversation...
they are using 10x the space, really isn't a hard extrapolation to make anyway.
@@mcdotterson4103 fair point, but saying it out loud removes the possibility for it to be lower. Keep some cards hidden in a negotiation.
@@SkarBringer in order to rent the extra space, the landlord likely got updated financial information. It's most likely numbers they already know. I think the point Doug was making is that the way they're growing, they're going to have to move/acquire another building.
@@specialtrades12 mmm fair
lol, Doug and his love for capitalism are peak /r/LeopardsAteMyFace material right now.
Every time Doug does something like this, I'm reminded of those good, good days when Jason was in charge, not Doug. This was... yikes. I cringed so much watching Doug "handle" this. This was *bad.* Both for y'all and as a viewer. It was definitely yet another thing that does *not* make y'all look good or like a sensible business one can feel comfortable backing if this is how things operate. Yikes. 😬 Maybe sometimes think about how not everything has to be content if you want to save face and not look incompetent...
Do you have a release schedule? You left a cliffhanger and it is now day 4...
Stay tuned.... 👀
Frank is the best!
Dale is the BEST
Y’all want an architect? I’d sooooo love to work with you on getting you a better space that is bespoke to you and your needs.
Do NOT sign a long term lease with these goons. They will screw you to increase their profits the first chance they get and they aren’t even really trying to hide it.
Can't wait for Doug to let Frank rip that dunce of a owner to shreds next week
My god have Frank do this. He’s your rep and a pro. The only reason they had a meeting directly with you was to try and screw you over. You don’t know jack about real estate and you hired a pro foe a reason. Use him.
Just based on the content from Wyrmwood, Doug gives off major narcissistic vibes. First we have the weird sexual harassment in the last episodes where only Doug would laugh at it. And now this weird business meeting where he surrounds himself with a ton of people who don't need to be there just for what? Having some yes men around him? The dude has gone off his rocker and makes it harder to buy from the company.
I feel the landlord was way underprepared. Shouldn’t he have numbers to back up an increase? Yet he still came out way on top
He doesn't need to be prepared, he can come in at any time during negotiations and go "pay my price or GTFO by this date." He is under no obligation to renew Wyrmwood's lease, just as Wyrmwood is under no obligation to stay. Preparation would have been nice, however, but it looks like he has the other guy to remember the numbers for him.
Definitely unprofessional, yes. When they brought forth the argument that property taxes and energy numbers went up without having data to back them up is as bad as it gets. This is super low level stuff that should have been prepared by any respectable company.
Landlord number 1 and 2 both knew those numbers. They wanted to negotiate with Doug because they know tenants rarely know their stuff, that's why they hire people like Phil. They didn't tell them those numbers because they wanted to get a feel for Doug and see how much they could raise by, if they tell him the numbers then they set a ceiling for how much they can raise by.
@@adriankemp254 Thank you for your enlightenement. I assume 90% of the other wyrmlings never had to deal with commercial real estate either. Where I come from residencial and commercial renting price increses are regulated.
@@dekkarmcgowan1423 Also, the landlord isn't obligated to share those numbers. The landlord also knows just how inexperienced Doug is when he offered to just outright pay the tax increase for them.
Please call Frank!😂
Wow, you guys did it. You have actually become a show I watch that I'm waiting with suspense for the next episode. Congrats 👏 👏 👏
See you soon!
Uffda. I hope you already bought land and are starting to build somewhere. Otherwise, what we just saw doesn't bode well for production stability, pricing, etc.
Anyone else get organized crime vibes from those dudes? ;)
Well this was incredible to watch XD
Episode 14 about to be a banger
The teaser for next episode was electric.
Wow poor Doug...that did not go well
How long until Frank literally next fuckin Friday
I miss frank dearly. even if he isn't needed for this, i hope he comes back soon.
Let us know when Doug emerges from the Bacta tank after that beating he took......
Frank probably should of been there.
See ya in the next episode Frank!
I love Doug and his "fuck you" attitude, but you gotta come to a meeting informed, researched, and prepared to debate. You showed your entire hand and got nowhere. I legitimately hope y'all are able to bounce back from this and get a good deal because this was bad.
My gut tells me we will most certainly see Frank next episode :)
Please get rid of Doug. wtf. I can't take any more. So embarrassing. I hate that I put so much money into such a naïve and unprofessional company.
If you're a 30 million dollar company, you should build your own space.
A lot of times Realtors require a broker's agreement. If you have one with Phil you may still have to pay him even if the landlord doesn't.
Frank will appear in E015
Alright, that was far too intense. Shits like anime
I really love seeing the behind the scene of business deals lol, very different that what I imagined. Love you Wyrm Life!
Gosh dang I love Dale. That man is the best.
Can't wait to see Moses and Frank's comments.
This is exactly the type of content that I subscribed for. It is incredibly refreshing for such a large company to be so open about their business.
Dale for President
This wasn't a serious negotiation and you can tell the landlords were not gonna play. Behind the scenes I would hope that there's a serious negotiation going on. Doug should have not been at the table if he doesn't know the details of what he is negotiating for. The only people that should have been in that room are the lawyer, the real estate broker, the Chief Financial Officer, and perhaps the CEO. I love watching the content but there's a point where you gotta shut the camera off and do business like adults.
This shows how ill-prepared Doug is to run a company booking 10s of millions of dollars in revenue. Bad faith negotiations, hip-shooting numbers, not a good look for any company. It may be time to bite the bullet and get a real CEO.
It completely boggles my mind that Doug has built the business to where it is. He obviously has been successful, I just can’t figure out how.
This ‘negotiation’ should be sent to MBA courses as an example of how not to negotiate.