Thank you for the different options for recovery. The higher power is my delima and in AA it's key... Been in and out of AA for over 20 years. 3 months Sober and want to stay sober.
AA is based on shaming addicts - labels, telling you you're defective and powerless, making you go back to square 1 every time you make a mistake, telling you you've failed instead of recognizing that it's the program that failed you. That's not the path to recovery. The path to recovery is in finding self-compassion, not white-knuckling it to sobriety. I wish you well. Check out the work of Gabor Mate.
I am also an atheist in AA as well, but I stay to help folks that go to AA, but don't believe in God or do not want anything to do with religion. I have over 30 years sobriety without the need for a higher power.
The truth is I despise religion on some level, I cringe when hear about “returning to the church” as I’ve never been a member, and while I am American I hate the religiosity of this country. Never heard of the Sinclair method. Thank you.
I've been in over 20 years and don't believe in a supernatural god, but do have an abstract idea of god that works great. sense of eternal peace/kindness that I found from sitting in AA meetings for a few weeks, and now feel I carry with me everywhere ago deep down
That's great! A pill will never solve the reasons that we drink. AA goes much deeper. Fortunately my home group doesn't have too many AA 'Taliban'. Probably most who attend are agnostic.
I have been clean and in recovery for the past 34 years. I understand alot about what he says about the 12 step program. I cant see how recovery would work without putting our faith and trust in something outside ourselves.
Well, I heard something about anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films. One would or could almost anticipate that would apply to any and all media forms. ( such as You Tube )
He no longer attends AA despite a press article claiming it saved his life. He is living high on the hog, condemning it like many people it has helped. If a homeless person was given a flat and did nothing but complain about the carpets and the toaster not working, you would call him ungrateful, but this does not apply to AA.
I was intrigued that a pill could help me and instantly looked up information on the Sinclair method. The 1st thing I read was that I had to take this pill every time before I started drinking. I have never done anything, 'every time', when I said that I would, and laughed when I read this. I also read that it took away the affects of the alcohol. It sounds great right now and I would certainly tell myself "oh yes, I promise to take this every time I drink" and mean it ... Only later when facing a bottle to say "I will try it next time" or "I will just take one drink first and then take the pill". I seriously doubt the success rate of this drug as claimed by Jon.
You have highlighted the problem EXACTLY. I took Naltrexone Hydrochloride for quite a while. It works the same way for opiates. When I wanted to get high I would simply switch drugs or not take the medicine. Such pills do not even attempt to solve the reasons we drink/use or to counter the mind-set of someone who wants to. I hate the AA Taliban, too. But I don't want to change AA, because it needs a structure of unity. I use the things in it I find helpful, ignore the bits I don't, and supplement it with other helpful things like Buddhism.
@@paulwally9007 Yes, so many ignore the underlying problems and try to fix it with a pill. I do not hate AA, however, and agree with keep what works and let go of what does not.
There is a Sinclair therapist in Spain, and some people who don't want AA have been to him. The people who tried 100% got drunk and stopped taking the tablets. I absolutely think the Sinclair method works for some people who are drinking heavily, but I have never once seen it work for a real alcoholic.
There are Federal court rulings that AA IS a religion. AA's foundations are in the Christian Oxford group. Bill W is idolized by the vast majority of AA attendees. An excerpt from Chapter 4 stating the purpose of the AA Big Book "It's main object is to enable you to find a power greater than yourself which will solve your problem." In AA the higher power has a name; "God." An excerpt from Dr Bob's Nightmare: "If you think you are an atheist, an agnostic, or a skeptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from accepting what is in this book, I feel sorry for you." From the New Testament, the "Lord's Prayer" is traditionally recited at the end of each meeting. Prayer is encouraged in meetings. Contrary to Jon's assessment above, these things all point to AA being a Christian cult. I've been sober and attending AA meetings for 28 years in spite of AA's exclusivity of non god people. I have occasionally dealt with hostile behavior as direct result of stating my views on the god topic. Never had a "sponsor" either.
PS have you heard of Campral/camprol - prescribed to 'drinkers'? It was around in the 1990s. If the Sinclair method doesn't work for someone would they be advised to try other agencies/methods? Presumably there is the possibility of some people deciding not to take the meds so they can off on a bender if the world seems to be against them/bored?
I tried the Sinclair method and it didn't work for me. My doctor was happy to prescribe it but warned me it failed most people. If it actually did work there be a fortune to be made on it. The fact that you never saw it on the market successfully tells you all you need to know about a success rate. It's rather odd that you want to blame AA for this pill not being promoted. Every doctor on the planet deals with alcohol addiction and if it had any measurable success rate they would be pushing it hard to their patients. If there was a pill that actually worked corporations will be making billions marketing it around the world. Your statistics about success rates regarding this pill are silly.
Were you one of those people who could not feel any difference drinking with naltrexone versus without? I responded to the Sinclair method very quickly, but from the first time I drank on naltrexone, I could tell a huge difference in how the alcohol was affecting me. It didn't take my brain very long to disassociate alcohol with pleasure and stop craving and obsessing over it.
The doctor I spoke to about this drug was surprised at how the drug was supposed to be taken. Their prescription comes with a direction to abstain from all alcohol while on the drug and taking 1x day. The pill is to be taken only before drinking to be effective. The Sinclair book mentions that the test results published in medical journals and details how they were flawed. It opens up the possibility to separate the emotional and psychological effects and payoff of alcohol.
I'm not interested in the Sinclair method, because I'm not interested in being a "dry drunk", or switching to another of the myriad forms of addiction. I want the emotional health benefits of the 12-step "Promises". Fortunately there are other ways of working the 12 steps without a higher power having to be involved. My sponsor got me The Twelve Secular Steps, and I am enjoying attending secular AA zoom meetings online. My brick and mortar home meeting is traditional AA, and my zoom home meeting is secular. So far, so good!
I have been in love with this fellowship for 40 years..Am wondering if God has become a crutch after covincing people that they cannot manage their own life with a Heatlty Mode of Life...JON Stuart really .opened my eyes to see things somewhat different .It is Very Interesting but a topic Difficult to address.
Spiritual not religious drives me nuts as well. Im not convinced jesus is a god or the God. Ive seen Derren Brown with his mind tricks induce in a hardcore atheist a spiritual experience which reduced her to tears. He explained how his use of suggestion did it. She was amazed to the extent that she was still considering that perhaps something supernatural had actually. I happened. I know of the Sinclair method for years. Ive never met a doctor who had ever read the Big Book at all and with a critical mind
Surprised you havent mentioned peyote or ayawasca success with addictions ir that LSD was working but FDA had a change of heart despite its success in treating addictions or allergy as the aa taliban insist on calling alcoholism.
I told an anti-theist that a sunbeam suddenly lit and warmed a room I was in once, and that I felt a sudden sense of peace and calmness, and all seemed well in the world briefly. He got angry and stormed off. I had no idea why he was imposing his anti-theist anger onto my simple matter-of-fact experience. I don't believe in the supernatural or an interventionalist/conscious god. Talking to him more, he had a strong concept of the god he didn't believe in, which he projected out into the world around him (angrily, despite being a lovely bloke in general). If I hear someone talking of the divine/god I just see it as a kind of imaginative way of viewing the world. Usually helpful/comforting, sometimes pedantic/angry/misguided, in my opinion. I happened to have the 'cool wind' experience myself in hospital - after taking sleeping tablets after a day of taking librium and atevan (both Valium related tablets). The Bill W experience was an example of him turning a similar experience into inspiration to take a vague concept of god\wellbeing out into the world, instead of his old concept of life that was leading him to destruction. I don't see why someone supposedly atheist would get hung up on this being 'divinely inspired'. To me, divine inspiration is just inspiration - a phenomenon of the imagination/physiology (?). It massively useful to harness this inner resource, especially if addicted/depressed/anxious/neurotic etc. This could be done without the use of the word god but, to me, god is also a kind of authority a figure part of the imagination - as opposed to my neurotic ego, which I used to unwittingly live by. Anyway, I like the talk. I've seen it before and it is always thought provoking and pertinent
@@FundFreedom I used to take psychoactive drugs, opiates and sedatives regularly. I had millions of inspirational experiences. And these, like the Sirens in Greek mythology, were dragging me closer and closer to my death. Personally, I don't want to treat the ramblings of a man with hallucinogen-induced lunacy as the blueprint for my spiritual development. There's much that's great in AA. But I don't believe in endorsing the bs in it.
That is very wrong that people thinks aa as a church.Bs, When you go to aa they tell you all religion and none religion is welcome.I been a Wicca for.over 30 yrs.I do not believe in a Christian god oe Jesus. I never will.I have my own gods and spiritual guides.I do not pray, I do ritual at my personal altars.I been in aa fir yrs.Everyone knows that I am a witch.I always have my pentacle on.It is my protection. The point is you can believe on what ever you want still have aa work.There might be some rude brain washing Christian there but there are still respectful Christian there to.Some of my friends are die hard Christian they respect me as a wicca witch.Do not listen to those types bashing Christian says you only need to believe in there god to get well.
Jon.. seems you have stepped away so of course you have the “way” - you have the Jon way - dotted with the favored history you want to spring board from. And so after all is said - history repeats itself. I have gone to thousands of different secular groups through zoom and read all the relevant secular literature. I am and was a secular humanist. I am non-theist. Non-deist. But I am a secular member of AA not a member of some alternate secular AA. Here’s the thing-stay away from one drink for one day at a time - this day and each day - then you will be better able to tackle your other issues any way you want or can. I will not wrestle with anyone’s cherished notions or with anyone who speaks with a forked tongue. It’s just not conducive to my health. Live and let live may be hard but it is a sound principle.
I'm so sorry. I respect your experience, but AA is anything BUT accepting. You fit the demographic for which it is minimally successful (privileged, white, male). There are millions that have actually been harmed by AA. I'm glad you point out the shortcomings and offer other options (still very hard to come by because of the monopoly AA has). Your anecdote is just like so many other anecdotes we hear - it worked FOR YOU. We don't hear the stories for the millions for whom it has failed - including me. I'm curious what science you've studied. Have you read the book The Sober Truth by Dodes and Dodes? Please do. Please stop starting your talk by recommending AA to anyone,.
Can anyone say horse shit? Hey, if it works for you, fine. But you have a long way to go in a metaphysical sense. You haven’t really addressed the issue of actual agnosticism with respect to AA.
If there is no god, then why even try because there is no one to judge you and no after-life to look forward to, so quit wasting your time and go eat, drink, and be merry even though I still pray for individuals such as yourself to be saved by Christ. I feel sorry for you and wish the best for your eternity, and yes, you will exist forever somewhere. God be with you!
You didn’t have a problem if you were able to “give it up. ” addiction is when you repeatedly do what you don’t want to do. Learn about dopamine and addiction in the brain.
Thank you for the different options for recovery. The higher power is my delima and in AA it's key...
Been in and out of AA for over 20 years. 3 months Sober and want to stay sober.
hope you are still sober:)
AA is based on shaming addicts - labels, telling you you're defective and powerless, making you go back to square 1 every time you make a mistake, telling you you've failed instead of recognizing that it's the program that failed you. That's not the path to recovery. The path to recovery is in finding self-compassion, not white-knuckling it to sobriety. I wish you well. Check out the work of Gabor Mate.
I am also an atheist in AA as well, but I stay to help folks that go to AA, but don't believe in God or do not want anything to do with religion. I have over 30 years sobriety without the need for a higher power.
The truth is I despise religion on some level, I cringe when hear about “returning to the church” as I’ve never been a member, and while I am American I hate the religiosity of this country. Never heard of the Sinclair method. Thank you.
I’m an atheist in AA and so far it’s working. I just think of my home group as my higher power.
I've been in over 20 years and don't believe in a supernatural god, but do have an abstract idea of god that works great. sense of eternal peace/kindness that I found from sitting in AA meetings for a few weeks, and now feel I carry with me everywhere ago deep down
AA is brainwash cult. YOU ARE NOT POWERLESS TO ALCOHOL!
That's great! A pill will never solve the reasons that we drink. AA goes much deeper. Fortunately my home group doesn't have too many AA 'Taliban'. Probably most who attend are agnostic.
This is just the most interesting thing I’ve ever heard in my life. Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing this information!
I have been clean and in recovery for the past 34 years. I understand alot about what he says about the 12 step program. I cant see how recovery would work without putting our faith and trust in something outside ourselves.
The way you talk about how different it is in America versus in the UK is fascinating I just started at AA and this is help me so much thank you
In Britain, in most meetings, if I open my mouth about the Big Book or God, I get attacked. AA in the UK is generally a mental health support group.
Well, I heard something about anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films. One would or could almost anticipate that would apply to any and all media forms. ( such as You Tube )
He no longer attends AA despite a press article claiming it saved his life. He is living high on the hog, condemning it like many people it has helped. If a homeless person was given a flat and did nothing but complain about the carpets and the toaster not working, you would call him ungrateful, but this does not apply to AA.
Small point..........if he`s not attending AA , he can hardly be called An Atheist IN AA
I was intrigued that a pill could help me and instantly looked up information on the Sinclair method. The 1st thing I read was that I had to take this pill every time before I started drinking. I have never done anything, 'every time', when I said that I would, and laughed when I read this. I also read that it took away the affects of the alcohol. It sounds great right now and I would certainly tell myself "oh yes, I promise to take this every time I drink" and mean it ... Only later when facing a bottle to say "I will try it next time" or "I will just take one drink first and then take the pill". I seriously doubt the success rate of this drug as claimed by Jon.
Lack of compliance is one of the reasons it doesn't work for 1 in 4 who try it.
You have highlighted the problem EXACTLY. I took Naltrexone Hydrochloride for quite a while. It works the same way for opiates. When I wanted to get high I would simply switch drugs or not take the medicine. Such pills do not even attempt to solve the reasons we drink/use or to counter the mind-set of someone who wants to. I hate the AA Taliban, too. But I don't want to change AA, because it needs a structure of unity. I use the things in it I find helpful, ignore the bits I don't, and supplement it with other helpful things like Buddhism.
@@paulwally9007 Yes, so many ignore the underlying problems and try to fix it with a pill. I do not hate AA, however, and agree with keep what works and let go of what does not.
@@Tell-me-more-75225 : )
There is a Sinclair therapist in Spain, and some people who don't want AA have been to him. The people who tried 100% got drunk and stopped taking the tablets. I absolutely think the Sinclair method works for some people who are drinking heavily, but I have never once seen it work for a real alcoholic.
Thank you for sharing.
There are Federal court rulings that AA IS a religion. AA's foundations are in the Christian Oxford group. Bill W is idolized by the vast majority of AA attendees. An excerpt from Chapter 4 stating the purpose of the AA Big Book "It's main object is to enable you to find a power greater than yourself which will solve your problem." In AA the higher power has a name; "God." An excerpt from Dr Bob's Nightmare: "If you think you are an atheist, an agnostic, or a skeptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from accepting what is in this book, I feel sorry for you." From the New Testament, the "Lord's Prayer" is traditionally recited at the end of each meeting. Prayer is encouraged in meetings. Contrary to Jon's assessment above, these things all point to AA being a Christian cult. I've been sober and attending AA meetings for 28 years in spite of AA's exclusivity of non god people. I have occasionally dealt with hostile behavior as direct result of stating my views on the god topic. Never had a "sponsor" either.
i live in MONTREAL QUEBEC and would like to attend some AA agnostic meetings.Can someone send me a link.
PS have you heard of Campral/camprol - prescribed to 'drinkers'? It was around in the 1990s. If the Sinclair method doesn't work for someone would they be advised to try other agencies/methods? Presumably there is the possibility of some people deciding not to take the meds so they can off on a bender if the world seems to be against them/bored?
If I can convince myself that I get to go to Disneyland when I die I sure as hell can convince myself I don't have a problem.
I tried the Sinclair method and it didn't work for me. My doctor was happy to prescribe it but warned me it failed most people. If it actually did work there be a fortune to be made on it. The fact that you never saw it on the market successfully tells you all you need to know about a success rate. It's rather odd that you want to blame AA for this pill not being promoted. Every doctor on the planet deals with alcohol addiction and if it had any measurable success rate they would be pushing it hard to their patients. If there was a pill that actually worked corporations will be making billions marketing it around the world. Your statistics about success rates regarding this pill are silly.
Were you one of those people who could not feel any difference drinking with naltrexone versus without? I responded to the Sinclair method very quickly, but from the first time I drank on naltrexone, I could tell a huge difference in how the alcohol was affecting me. It didn't take my brain very long to disassociate alcohol with pleasure and stop craving and obsessing over it.
@@924alana Congratulations, It's great that it worked for you. I tried it hopping I'd be one of the lucky few as well.
The doctor I spoke to about this drug was surprised at how the drug was supposed to be taken. Their prescription comes with a direction to abstain from all alcohol while on the drug and taking 1x day. The pill is to be taken only before drinking to be effective. The Sinclair book mentions that the test results published in medical journals and details how they were flawed. It opens up the possibility to separate the emotional and psychological effects and payoff of alcohol.
Same here. Didn't work at all for me, and only incentivized me to drink more to get past its effects
I'm not interested in the Sinclair method, because I'm not interested in being a "dry drunk", or switching to another of the myriad forms of addiction. I want the emotional health benefits of the 12-step "Promises". Fortunately there are other ways of working the 12 steps without a higher power having to be involved. My sponsor got me The Twelve Secular Steps, and I am enjoying attending secular AA zoom meetings online. My brick and mortar home meeting is traditional AA, and my zoom home meeting is secular. So far, so good!
Finally someone who makes sense
Sinclair method isn't all that successful. You can just drink past your usual amount to get buzzed.
Why campaign Jon?. Just start something else to help alcoholics I can refer many people who hate the spiritual recovery programme.
I have been in love with this fellowship for 40 years..Am wondering if God has become a crutch after covincing people that they cannot manage their own life with a Heatlty Mode of Life...JON Stuart really .opened my eyes to see things somewhat different .It is Very Interesting but a topic Difficult to address.
Makes a lot of sense to me thank you Jon
That Sinclair method is quite interesting.I F SOMEONE truly wanted to stop...
Volume is to low
Would you try the Sinclair method Jon?
He already doesn't drink so how could he take a pull before drinking?
Spiritual not religious drives me nuts as well. Im not convinced jesus is a god or the God. Ive seen Derren Brown with his mind tricks induce in a hardcore atheist a spiritual experience which reduced her to tears. He explained how his use of suggestion did it. She was amazed to the extent that she was still considering that perhaps something supernatural had actually. I happened. I know of the Sinclair method for years. Ive never met a doctor who had ever read the Big Book at all and with a critical mind
Who does he say is the author of the book The Historical Jesus...I cant make out what he’s saying...
Looney Tunes The author of The Historical Jesus is Bart D Ehrman
Surprised you havent mentioned peyote or ayawasca success with addictions ir that LSD was working but FDA had a change of heart despite its success in treating addictions or allergy as the aa taliban insist on calling alcoholism.
I told an anti-theist that a sunbeam suddenly lit and warmed a room I was in once, and that I felt a sudden sense of peace and calmness, and all seemed well in the world briefly. He got angry and stormed off. I had no idea why he was imposing his anti-theist anger onto my simple matter-of-fact experience. I don't believe in the supernatural or an interventionalist/conscious god. Talking to him more, he had a strong concept of the god he didn't believe in, which he projected out into the world around him (angrily, despite being a lovely bloke in general). If I hear someone talking of the divine/god I just see it as a kind of imaginative way of viewing the world. Usually helpful/comforting, sometimes pedantic/angry/misguided, in my opinion.
I happened to have the 'cool wind' experience myself in hospital - after taking sleeping tablets after a day of taking librium and atevan (both Valium related tablets). The Bill W experience was an example of him turning a similar experience into inspiration to take a vague concept of god\wellbeing out into the world, instead of his old concept of life that was leading him to destruction. I don't see why someone supposedly atheist would get hung up on this being 'divinely inspired'. To me, divine inspiration is just inspiration - a phenomenon of the imagination/physiology (?). It massively useful to harness this inner resource, especially if addicted/depressed/anxious/neurotic etc. This could be done without the use of the word god but, to me, god is also a kind of authority a figure part of the imagination - as opposed to my neurotic ego, which I used to unwittingly live by.
Anyway, I like the talk. I've seen it before and it is always thought provoking and pertinent
Cool story. Converted no one.
@@FundFreedom I used to take psychoactive drugs, opiates and sedatives regularly. I had millions of inspirational experiences. And these, like the Sirens in Greek mythology, were dragging me closer and closer to my death. Personally, I don't want to treat the ramblings of a man with hallucinogen-induced lunacy as the blueprint for my spiritual development. There's much that's great in AA. But I don't believe in endorsing the bs in it.
My X is a 13th stepper. He has been in AA for 20 years. 😒
Sorry to hear that. Usually serial 13 steppers are shunned in meetings, and newcomers are warned about them.
I gathered from this fruit may help kill an alchohol craving.
That is very wrong that people thinks aa as a church.Bs, When you go to aa they tell you all religion and none religion is welcome.I been a Wicca for.over 30 yrs.I do not believe in a Christian god oe Jesus. I never will.I have my own gods and spiritual guides.I do not pray, I do ritual at my personal altars.I been in aa fir yrs.Everyone knows that I am a witch.I always have my pentacle on.It is my protection. The point is you can believe on what ever you want still have aa work.There might be some rude brain washing Christian there but there are still respectful Christian there to.Some of my friends are die hard Christian they respect me as a wicca witch.Do not listen to those types bashing Christian says you only need to believe in there god to get well.
Very true.
That blond lady to your right, definitely has the anger of god in her lol
Jon.. seems you have stepped away so of course you have the “way” - you have the Jon way - dotted with the favored history you want to spring board from.
And so after all is said - history repeats itself.
I have gone to thousands of different secular groups through zoom and read all the relevant secular literature. I am and was a secular humanist. I am non-theist. Non-deist. But I am a secular member of AA not a member of some alternate secular AA.
Here’s the thing-stay away from one drink for one day at a time - this day and each day - then you will be better able to tackle your other issues any way you want or can.
I will not wrestle with anyone’s cherished notions or with anyone who speaks with a forked tongue. It’s just not conducive to my health.
Live and let live may be hard but it is a sound principle.
I'm so sorry. I respect your experience, but AA is anything BUT accepting. You fit the demographic for which it is minimally successful (privileged, white, male). There are millions that have actually been harmed by AA. I'm glad you point out the shortcomings and offer other options (still very hard to come by because of the monopoly AA has). Your anecdote is just like so many other anecdotes we hear - it worked FOR YOU. We don't hear the stories for the millions for whom it has failed - including me. I'm curious what science you've studied. Have you read the book The Sober Truth by Dodes and Dodes? Please do. Please stop starting your talk by recommending AA to anyone,.
Wish you the best don’t agree and I love and wish you the best
Success OF THOSE WHO ATTEND (which is a select group) is estimated to be less than 10%. You are a minority.
Can anyone say horse shit? Hey, if it works for you, fine. But you have a long way to go in a metaphysical sense. You haven’t really addressed the issue of actual agnosticism with respect to AA.
Why the need to say horse shit?
All these drunks in the comments. Ffs, you gotta put in a lil effort.
Psychobabble is a religion in itself - EGO as you amigo - The outside sponsor followship is a prime example
Maybe AA works because it is based on christianity. I never heard of a successful atheistic rehab for addicts.
Try actually looking. Not knowing is not the same as not finding.
There are lots of different methods for giving up addiction.
@@lisamoore4388 All involve not using period
AA has a high rate of relapse because it depends on believing in bullshit
If there is no god, then why even try because there is no one to judge you and no after-life to look forward to, so quit wasting your time and go eat, drink, and be merry even though I still pray for individuals such as yourself to be saved by Christ. I feel sorry for you and wish the best for your eternity, and yes, you will exist forever somewhere. God be with you!
Perhaps because you don't want to die young and insane?
AA is church for the drunk. Don't drink don't get drunk, how hard is that....really? You need/want meetings to stay sober? You have bigger problems.
That is a very myopic viewpoint which lacks real understanding.
@@lisamoore4388 For you maybe. I had a problem drinking, gave it up
How long have you been sober Music?
@@andrewcushmansr2 That doesn't sound like much of a problem.
You didn’t have a problem if you were able to “give it up. ” addiction is when you repeatedly do what you don’t want to do. Learn about dopamine and addiction in the brain.