Hand Traps - The WORST Band Aid In Yu-Gi-Oh!? Or The Solution To Powercreep? | Heart of the Cast #8
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- Опубліковано 8 бер 2024
- In this episode @Farfa & @JoshuaSchmidtYGO discuss the overwhelming abundance and presence of hand traps in competitive, modern Yu-Gi-Oh! Have we reached a critical mass or is this the future and best course of growth for the game?
twitch.tv/farfa
twitch.tv/joshuaschmidtygo - Ігри
Insects have so many goofy handtraps (the entire “C” line, Sting Lancer, Infinite Antlion, Scale Bomber to an extent,) and I love it. There was a time where I was hoping they would build onto Sting Lancer’s unique interaction (spinning monsters in the gy) because I thought it was a really unique interaction that could set insects apart while also giving them an impactful interaction……
And then Bystials came out…
Another thing Konami can start doing is make more archtyped locked Handtraps like Subterror Fiendess. Making too many generic HT enable future decks to play 15+.
can't go lock the handtraps now when they make stupidly generic broken monsters that ppl will splash into every deck no matter what
Cant sadly, sometimes u can, but generally not when YGO as powercreeped already now compared to back then.
I love these idea. Anything is generic now. People just choose the best handtraps and splash it in every single deck.
I agree. At Team YCS Las Vegas one of the decks was MAIN DECKING 20! FREAKING 20 hand traps. Man cmon!
@@HerosOnly wait for tepai dragons and they might reach 25
We need more going second tools. Typhon was a step in the right direction
A new battle hand trap just released in phantom nightmare. It's actually pretty strong if you don't expect it, still not really worth playing though.
Emissary from the House of Wax
When an opponent's monster declares an attack: You can Special Summon this card from your hand. You can only use this effect of "Emissary from the House of Wax" once per turn. If this card battles a monster, neither can be destroyed by that battle. At the end of your opponent's Battle Phase: You can activate this effect; until the start of your opponent's next Battle Phase, all Attack Position monsters your opponent currently controls cannot change their battle positions, nor be used as material for a Fusion, Synchro, Xyz, or Link Summon, also their effects are negated.
I've only seen it being used on Chimera as an anti zeus card in certain decks. It is situational, but when it pops off it really pops of.
I was playing a really jank but annoying gold sarc of light deck on edopro and was totally not expecting that card. It totally cooked me, lost the game hahaha
I came to see if anyone had mentioned this card and how slept on it is
situational, but tbh it needs more. perhaps if it activated in the dmg step. defo playable in the right deck though
@@OsirusHandle seen the odd chimera deck playing it
My favourite hand trap is havnis. I hate this current meta of half the main deck being staple hand traps, slamming the same non engine at your opponent every game is not fun. imo the most fun way to interact on turn 0 is by starting your own engine and I hope decks in the future include more in archetype hand traps that have more complex interaction than "pick the right card to negate"
Havnis is great, but only in the full power version of the deck where there's a possibility of milling Ishizu millers and other tear cards. With the current banlist is just a name to fusion summon.
I think Havnis and R-ACE Preventer are what modern yugioh needs: in engine turn 0 interaction that creates future points of interaction or extension. That or ban a bunch of cards to lower the power of and slow down the game.
@@judgetyler labrynth with its furniture cards too
We need more handtraps that aren't just different versions of counterspell like ash, veiler, imperm, mourner, belle basically are
I hate her. Handtraps are one or more quick interactions. Havnis, on the other hand, starts a whole opponent turn during my turn! It's enraging!
My favorite handtrap by far is Nibiru. Is amazing how much of deck building and combo design is dedicated to play around this card. My least favorite, by far, is Maxx "C" (I know, controversial take). Most decks can't play around it, specially rogue strategies. You just add all the counters you can to almost every deck and pray your opponent doesn't resolve it.
I love deck that play around nibiru by planning what you do after you get nibbed because people will actually respect nib and decide to build huge board or not. I hate deck that play around nibiru by making negate super early i think its killing the purpose
Deck building around nibiru be like:
Make Apo or Baronne within 5 summons.
Oh boy, I love generic extra deck negates ....
@@leviathan5207 Pretty much . One thing is when your opponent , in order to play around a possible Nibiru , has to commit to a worse combo which will lead to them having a weaker board ( ex. Traptrix making Rafflesia and passing instead of Pinguicula and extending to get two or more bodies on field for one or two extra xyz / link bosses ) ; another is when they just vomit out Baronne / Apollo immediately and can still keep on landing on their strongest board regardless with no downsides .
@@kasumi2173 or you know, if the decks can put put a decent board in four summons, do that.
@@leviathan5207 there have been decks that play through Nibiru instead, but guess what? They tend to be even more toxic than decks that play around Nibiru...
The future of yugioh will be that ever deck will have an in archetype hand trap (i.e. stovie torbie, arias, air lifter, spirit of yubel)
If you control no cards (Quick Effect): You can discard this card; this turn, each time your opponent Special Summons a monster(s) from the Extra Deck, you draw 1 card then discard 1 card. You can only use this effect of "Maximum Cringe" once per turn.
Turn ultra pot of greed into ultra graveful charity... Nah thx.
If it were to banish the discarded cards face down, then maybe, but setting up the gy is insane in itself...
@@leviathan5207 if you're going second and your opponent plays into it, then yeah i'm fine with that. also this card is always a -1, unlike graceful which is a neg 0.
@@Always.Smarter being a -1 when being a +5 in GY in this state of game is mad..
Lmao. The name.
Not good enough. Genuinely.
I think the other big problem with called by is that it is so rarely dead. If it only worked on hand traps like cross out it’d be different bc it’d be a dead card in cases or not great going second. But it’s effect in todays game environment is so relavent that there is almost never not a good target to called by going second or after setting it turn one.
Gonna float my idea for a Maxx C replacement (not gonna do PSCT, just the idea): You can discard on your opponent’s first special summon when you control no cards. At the end of the turn, draw cards equal to the number of special summoned monsters your opponent controls +1.
Basically, idea is instead of burying opponent in hand traps and advantage it’s about giving you more resources to play into an opponent’s board that punishes having a board chocked full of a ton of interruptions more than say Marincess, which special summons a ton to end on 1 monster that can be outed by a variety of things. The opponent can play around it by potentially choosing to end on a board with less interrupts or not so there’s that element as well. You also can’t full combo, then just get a bunch of free advantage on top of it like you can with Maxx C currently
as OCG player, i'd prefer to ban it than this errata
I like the second part but I'm not fan of the first effect, the nice thing about maxx c is if I dont have out of it, I could maxx 'ed them back. also best of 3 is huge part in maxx c environment, you got less tilted on it, unlike master duel with best of one game that you got maxx c'ed by 5 different people
Different game but it had a similiar thing like Effect Veiler:
In Cardfight! Vanguard depending on the format und play you are allowed to use a G-Zone (some sort of extra deck). And thise G-Zone now a days contains two type of cards G-Units (aka Strides) and the later introduced G-Guardians - which ara powerful defensive tools. Now a little context for the anime scene thing: CFV get's once a year a Festival Collection set which gives all decks support (2-3 cards per deck) and those sets normally got there highest rarity revealed the last.
BUT one year the reveals were off, we got the highest rarity cards revealed first. Everybody was confused if that was an error or something like that. But than there was a pretty hyped match in the anime, it was a cool back and forth, but it felt like that one of the protagonists will lose - until they just used the first ever seen G-Guardian.
It was crazy how this introduced a new mechanic in the most hyped way possible.
And nowing that years after 5Ds Vanguard did something like that - I believe that the Effect Veiler in the Anime was an ad for the card an the now more open design space of using effects in hand during your opponents turn.
Goddamn these podcast are always so nice to listen to keep it up guys, I love these!
I really like too the hand traps that give you value instead of just interupt the oponnent, as an exemple, I would love a card that would say "if your opponent adds a card for the main deck to the hand while controling a monster, draw 1, if your opponent controls a monster special summoned from the extra deck, draw 2 instead. You cannot activate this card effect if you control more than 2 monsters special summoned from the extra deck or one tribute summoned monster" and it would be a hard once per turn. it wouldn't be a maxx C type hand trap as it only gives you 2 cards at most also it would give the opponent some breathing room as using it on ROTAs isn't possible, and most of the time the first extra deck summon is what starts everything and is the most impactful so you basically let them do their most important play then you get some extra ressources.
Or a hand trap that would allow you to draw 1 if your opponent searched a card but if your opponent controls 3 or more monster special summoned from the extra you add a card from the deck with the same kind as the searched card by the opponent(monster/spell trap) but you cannot activate cards for the rest of the turn except if your opponent controls 3 monsters special summoned from the extra.
but tbh I would just prefer to have hand traps made for archetypes to make them start going second instead of generic stuff. As you mentionned it, something havnis style
I was just having this discussion online about Maxx C and I'm glad the idea of an errata is floating around. I do think a card like it is needed but going against handtraps when your opponent already established their board is the worst.
The discussions around Maxx "C" are some of the biggest bullshit spreading discussions on this game ever. However the one thing I would agree about Maxx "C" is that a simple errata would fix all the complaints about fairness the card gets. And that one miracle errata would be to give the card the Dimensional Shifter clause where you can only activate it if you have no cards in your gy. Sure some decks would be able to still use it going 2nd and onwards, but the amount of competitive decks able to do so would be minimal, and they wouldn't get that much better just by being able to use Maxx "C" past turn 1.
@@admontblanc This doesn't do enough to fix the card. It eliminates 1 of the issues when there are many others. Every deck could also still use it, just use it first before other handtraps
Before watching I'll post what I think and then reply after. I think battle hand traps and gy/exile interaction hand traps are good and fair. I don't think any other kinds of hand traps are good, and they only seem fair the same way that FoW is "fair" in Legacy/Vintage MtG (I last played MtG circa 2018). Yu-Gi-Oh needs a banlist like 4x the current size (minimum) to go back to a multi-turn game, but that might be worth it.
How dare they not mention misc lol dino was interaction proof and we didn't even talk about it
An interesting idea would be a battle handtrap that is unresponable, ends the battle phase, and draws a card. It only works on direct attack though. Could prevent otks in the current format while providing a comeback mechanic lol. Also creates interesting game states where you try to OTK without clearing the field.
So battle fader basically.
Not battle fader, but I'd still make it a pot of greed. No way a draw 1 is good enough
But what deck would want to waste deckspace with something like that??
@@lioneart19 hard to answer but I'd say something with tons of starters but is weak to handtraps. Which is opposite of what modern deckbuilding is going towards. Also, regarding my previous comment, after some thought draw 2 is not enough either. Un-negatable BP ender + either draw 3 or draw 1 with every monster on board negated permanently and cant be used as material, kind of like the new illusion monster but stronger. Maybe tribute boardwipe with floating prevention?
just let us pre set traps turn 0 like Pokemon lets you set a Bench in addition to your Active Pokemon, since some have defensive Abilities or to prevent ftk donk strats.
At this point it’s the only reasonable thing to do
I remember I was still fresh coming back into the game around then, and I saw Effect Veiler and my friend was telling me how amazing it is, and I wasn’t impressed. I thought about how it wasn’t a real monster, and it doesn’t deal with the body. I didn’t think about how it could frankly end an x-saber player’s turn to stop Boggart Knight from resolving. Lol
Somehow, if we want to fix the game, then they either need to release more in engine hand traps, or lower the ceiling to the point where if you get full combo’d it’s far from game ending. One inherent problem to hand traps is that they’re predicated on your opening hand. If you don’t open more than 1, then you’re probably getting blown out. Not many hand traps just end their turn outright by themselves. I don’t like relying on a chance just to be able to play competently
Gorz was not limited on OCG release, it was a jump or manga promo if I remember correctly..
I played it at 3 on my fiend deck for a while.
In modern YGO, Hand Traps are fine when they're virtually a one for one trade
I hate hand traps like Droll, Nibiru, and Shifter, because eventually Konami has to make decks that don't give a shit about those cards. Snake-Eyes flat out does not care about Droll or Nib. Shifter is the only one that hard counters the strategy, but only a few decks can really run that card, and Shifter is just a terribly designed card in general.
Yeah but then You run into an issue where now a days a 1 for 1 trade is not good enough.
We have this in Tear format where they could play trough Ash/imp/veilers and Snake Eyes are kinda the same where two or three handtraps aren't enough as well
@@steelblake Ask yourself why did konami decide to print cards that straight up powercreep the 1for1 hand traps to make them useless in the first place. Every time they do this in recent time we almost end up in a tier 0 format or straight up do and most of those decks get gutted after multiple banlists.
Its ironic that Shifter was considered the worst tcg exclusive when it came out alongside Nibiru and DRNM. How the tables have turned
@@afiqazhar99i dont think people thought shifter is bad. Its just at the time its released no good deck can play it (i think its released around the end of toss format cmiiw)
People do think shifter is a crazy turn skipping card but no meta deck back then could afford to play it since its all very graveyard oriented thats why people dont play it
Snake-Eye absolutely cares about Droll and Nibiru. If it didn’t, you wouldn’t see people playing those cards.
You’ve confused “doesn’t care about” with “ends on more than 0 interruptions through”.
My problem with handtraps is just they aren't guaranteed so it just feels sacky when I come stocked up on them and I don't seem any of them during my opponent's first turn when I need them the most.
Farfa calling Dark Honest "Liar" was a good one.
I looked it up because I couldn't remember if the card was actually called that
Elemental Hero Dishonest Neos
Kind of weird that a card meant to trick your opponent into thinking your monster will get destroyed in battle is called "Honest"
Elemental HERO Spirit of Neos is so funny, they really made a turbofog piece that searches Neos Fusion but dropped it in the same set as Tearlaments and Spright
I miss gamma so much, i miss building my decks around more searchers and deliberately playing around that punishing people just throwing handtraps at random things rather than thinking. I miss ending on lambda bluffing a gamma in hand. Why was it even put at 1 over every other hand trap. The one which REQUIRES a brick with a very stringent activation condition.
because it's as much of an anti hand trap as a handtrap for the explicit reason you stated.
Gamma going first nowadays not only kills an interaction but also puts up a Baronne to negate a second one. Sure it's fun when you're the guy doing it but not so much when you're the one going second trying to stay alive.
Yeah, pretty much. Despite being the only handtrap that has deckbuilding consequences, it does WAY too much nowadays both going first and second for such a small price @@Avermra
Because turning opposing handtraps into a free Baronne is just idiotic.
Same reason Called by the Grave is llimited.
@@Avermrawhat starter/combo is a must stop that requires you to use your handtrap when there's no monsters on board? you can just wait until they have a body on board and it becomes a brick in hand
TIME WIZARD COUNTDOWN- Spellcard (hand trap)
you can activate this card from the hand in your opponents main phase, (Quick Effect) each time your opponent summons a monster add 1 counter to this card. When this card reaches 4 counters, use one of the following effects, then send this card to the GY:
- Destroy all spell/trap cards on the field.
- Negate all face up cards currently on the field
-Destroy all monsters on the field.
32:20.. point exactly ash is everywhere but ppl complain abiut maxx c .. ash has literally warped the game.
Ppl say pot of greed cant come back because every deck will play it : Ash blossom.
Ppl say maxx c is in every deck and has no counter play: Ash blossom.
Confiscation rips a card out your oppnents hand and you know what their playing: oh wait branded fusion? Your playing branded? Ash Blossom. No cost. Not a downside in sight, hits 90% of the game can be used turn 0 makes meta decks better, completely kills rogue decks, forces you to play interaction with it, so it forces dedicated slots in opponents decks and... you dont even have to play any other supporting handtraps. It allow can win games.
Maxx c needs you to play supporting handtraps or it is just a draw caed as you die.
Pot of greed is 2 random cards. That ofcourse can be ashed. At 1 is as fair as reborn...
Ash is crazy on so many levels...it has 3 effects... what are we really talking about here
Back in my day, running chaos agents and double trag, double gorZ, triple herald of orange light, and triple of the card that y’all give the Voldemort treatment. I leave the game before pendulums came out, just getting back into it the past couple of months and there’s so many hand traps. How many different zombie flower girls are there? Damn.
6. Or 5 if, for some reason, you don't count Ghost Ogre because she's not a zombie
@@Petsinwinter2 go ahead and count her in that mix lol. did they all come out at once? I can see those changing the game dynamic a bit. I used to use skull meister, but it seems like it got power crept into obsolescence considering the spooky petal princesses all have multiple effects. I’m still trying to figure out pendulum and link summoning atm. Trying to get back into the game feels like having to do a PhD program worth of research to catch myself up to date.
@@abhorrentillusionsthink of links as contact fusions, like the Glad Beasts. The arrows dont really matter unless you play specifically Pendulum decks or Link spam decks.
@@ThatOneWeirdFlex that helps; thanks. Speaking of glad beasts, imagine how excited I was when I found out they got so many new upgrades and powerful additions, only to have the biggest letdown ten minutes later when I realized they’re even less relevant now than they were when I was playing. At least blackwings look like they are on the cusp of being able to compete with the right deck list and pilot. Now if only zombies could get some new life. (pun slightly intended)
@@abhorrentillusions no, the ghost girls were all released annually between 2015 and 2020. best of luck returning to the game! I know it's daunting. If you like battle phase shenanigans, you should look into Tenpai dragons coming out in next month's main set. it's nowhere near what Glads are trying to do, as they're looking to OTK rather than control, but damn if potential 30k+ battle damage isn't stupidly fun as hell
House of Wax is a very interesting battle trap
imagine if iris swordsoul had an easier summoning condition for turn 0
That would be peak handtrap design imo
ghost mourner, imperm, veiller all negate the effects of a monster on the field, you can totally try out iris swordsoul
@@nial1396when you run the maths it doesnt work out well for her. even with all 3 you still draw her and no handtrap like 20% of the time you draw her and you are straight losing those games
@@nial1396 I already do in Runick along with Albaz. Incredible Ecclesia is such a good card.
Would Maxx “C” MK. II be good enough?
You can activate this effect during either players turn by sending this card from your hand to the GY. This turn, each time your opponent special summons a monster(s). Draw 1 card, then put a card from your hand on the bottom of your deck. Is that even good enough, or does it need something else?
Great discussion between the lads, love the depth. As usual, Konami take notes & based Josh.
Shout outs to electric snake, my favorite GOAT era hand trap that isn't really a hand trap but we'll call it a hand trap anyway
Dark World being their answer to combat hand control is very funny, considering where that deck is at now.
Maxx "D"
Send to grave, opponent banishes a card face down from hand or field each time they special
Nice
I don't understand why this community is so averse from using the same amount of energy we use for cards like Maxx C when it comes to generic end board pieces. Every single toxic deck in the last 3-4 years has used Baronne, Savage, Appolosa, etc in some combination to strengthen end boards to the point you often don't get to play. How many times do these cards have to show up in these decks before we just beg and scream for THEM to be banned? There is nothing wrong with wombo combo if they end on 2 in-engine disruptions. NOTHING.
Literally, banning 4 or 5 cards (since SP is now in that category) would reduce the turn 2 problem DRAMATICALLY and yet no one is focusing on this. Why is this community so easily strung along by Konami? WHY??
You get rid of generic end board pieces and the need for hand traps also becomes dramatically less. You get rid of the right ones and I would argue running more gas is more beneficial then hand traps. We could start to see these abominations of game design that promote luck based gameplay be banned themselves. AND THATS ALL IT TAKES. Ban 4 or 5 cards. Man this community is dumb... I'm sorry but I have dealt with this lack of critical thinking for too long now.
1:07:42 I thought of two ideas that could help going second, the first being something like a reverse Nibiru along the lines of "if your opponent special summons one or more monsters this turn, create one 'goober token'" and have them change types/attribute/level etc. second is like "when your opponent adds a card from their deck to their hand, you can add one card from your deck to your hand of the same card type (monster/spell/trap) once each"
These would give you resources to work with whatever your opponent is up to but doesn't stop what they're doing.
“New Maxx “C””
During either player's turn: You can send this card from your hand to the Graveyard and disclose your home address to your opponent; this turn, each time your opponent Special Summons a monster(s), immediately draw 1 card. You can only use 1 "New Maxx "C"" per turn.
Lmao 😂
11:10 I still do that today with Ash Blossom and Veiler to access Power Tool Dragon, Herald of the Arc Light or a Trishula, if I couldn't access Revolution Syncron. It's, in fact, fact the main reason I favor Veiler over Imperm.
Ah, BLOS.
A Hand Trap that allows you to Special a Monster from your hand if your opponent has more cards on the field than you. The idea being you get to establish a board and a potential interruption, but can is balanced by the reduction of resources on your turn, and turning in the Opponents removal.
That's just phantazmay, or pankratops, also that monster with 2450 atk/def, gizmech i guess?
@@dantesparda4610 The goal of this was to for example special Raizen from hand at Quick Effect Speed. This allows for Special Effect + other interactions. Though I could see this also being used for evil with say Barrier Statues.
Won’t be good enough sadly
As someone who hasn't played cardboard yugioh since construct saw a banlist I was utterly shocked by the amount of hand traps in master duel. A good Maxx c replacement might be a version where it summons to your field, still has the draw on SS but it has to remain face up to trigger. Makes it interactive and you can add "if summoned this way banish and EOT" or something
Finally got around to watching this, I think overall similarly to what Josh said and that I like Maxx "C" the most. As somebody that has been mostly priced out of most tcgs competitively, I have the majority of my understanding through Master Duel. The problem with Maxx C isn't so much the effect of what it does, but the deck composition and how much has evolved over the last decade of modern Yu-Gi-Oh. Maxx C is so much of a win-more card because of other modern staple hand traps and that it follows the same power creep issue. Rogue strategies "NEED" it, but allowing ALL decks to have acces to it makes it where the less powered decks are still fighting up hill. Of the big 3 (MtG, Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh) the latter is the only game scared of card advantage because of how fast the game is over.
It would be an interesting case study to build somewhere around 10 mid-range decks that have moderately good potential and only include Maxx C but no other handtraps. As Josh had stated, the reason he like the Maxx C style of effect was because it didnt inherently stop your opponent from committing. What stops your opponent is that you are most likely drawing into hand traps or other forms of negation to disrupt interaction. This also kind of comes into contention with generic omni-negate style cards like Baron (which I enjoy the card thoroughly) but am also willing to acknowledge how turn 1 Baron + a full board of other negation is similarly an issue in one way or another.
As for the how would I make it better? I'm not entirely sure, because i agree with both of them that to even be viable at this point, what a handtrap has to do to be worth it is honestly probably just too much. Battle hand traps need too much uninteractable conditions to stick, floodgate hand traps feel a little gimmicky and annoying similar to normal floodgates and linger hand traps are normally too suffocating and are usually bested by decks that simply just do not care about them.
grumpy "c" :reveal/discard this card banish the top 3 cards of your opponent's deck facedown ,during the end phase your opponent adds those cards to his hands and if he does draw 2 cards ,also you can't render zones unusable the duel you use this effect. use/activate once per duel yata yata
ps note f shangri-la
As for the one card combo discussion, I think the biggest issue there is extradeck extenders, which should just not exist. Toolbox extra decks like Swordsoul always feel healthier for the game than any deck that runs through 12 cards in its extradeck to end on a full board. Something like Splashmage should just not exist, it's an even bigger problem than circular itself.
And they keep making more, like that link 1 Code Talker that revives itself for free link material. I guess they don't see it as a problem, because they just keep throwing more onto the pile.
The biggest issue isn't with the extra deck. It's with the 1 card combos. They just need to stop making 1 card combos that give you so much. They should be reserved for midrange/control decks imo. Combo decks based around 1 card combos are too much
@@yuseifido5706 It just sounds like you have never actually watched a mathmech combo in your life. Like you have no comprehension of how they got from circular to that end board.
@@Malidala It just sounds like you have no comprehension of card design. Like you have never actually watched a snake eye combo in your life
@@yuseifido5706 Snake-Eyes is fine the problem is other decks aren't on the same power level, but beyond that Promethean is literally an extender out of the extradeck. Like that is literally the most problematic card in the entire deck.
farfa and josh are such great hosts!
I feel like people forget about this but gravekeepers also had the first handtrap in the game introduced along side kuribo. Which negated cards and effects that discarded cards.
I'd love to see a hand trap that can draw you cards based on the number of monsters your opponent currently controls: the most unfair strategies tend to commit a lot of monsters to the board
We are aproaching to a point when they gonna invented a handtrap that says, if your opponent add's a card from their deck to your hand, add the same type of card from your deck to your hand, or if your opponent special summon from deck, your can discard and special summon one from your deck
Im of the opinion that yugioh is a bit broken at this point. Handtraps are a symptom of that break, and it came from the obvious power disparity.
The sad fact is, when they concieved the first handtrap, they should've instead made a good set of design rules to bound the power level of the game so that hidden information didnt become the most powerful factor in winning or losing.
Look at Master Duel, where the bug and other handtraps can singlehandedly reduce TCG tier 0 meta to tier 2/3 or lower. And its random, sometimes you can go all day without getting maxx c'd, other days you get bug bites every draw phase atop actual disruption handtraps.
At this point, its pretty much too late to fix the problem, unless they were to make a new or several new officially supported formats that phased out many of these cards.
Way back in the early 2000s when the first hand trap was one that only nullified life point loss(something that is essentially irrelevant nowadays)?
I think we need more trap hand traps. Imperm and evenly are pretty good cuz they have very strict conditions to maximize their effects. Payoff is king.
In regards to “draw a 6th card up front if going second”, I have a fundamental rule change that I would like input on.
The player going second may set but not activate cards/effects during “turn zero”. This could revitalize trap cards, giving them merit going second, but is risky bc it also makes cards like lightning storm useful going first.
When can they choose to do this? In response to an opponents play or would people just throw them down in the end phase. Shouldn’t be able to set monsters. Just traps maybe
The card "you're finished" could've been an interesting hand trap if it was designed so. Basically a nib for effect activations instead of summons.
Maybe a battle phase handtrap that makes the opponent player ban all their monsters that have higher attack than the attacking monster (maybe face down). Also, a novel concept I just came up with, it must be negated twice ("the first time it is negated, it is not negated"). For it to be fairer, make it be summoned and maybe even draw a card so it can more easily be doubly negated (but not always). Maybe it could work.
Maxx C errata = for the rest of this turn, while your opponent has more cards in hanf than you, draw a card whenever they special summon.
There fixed it.
Its 2030, a new card have been release, its effect:
"if you have this card in your deck, you can special summon it on your field, this effect cannot be negate, if you summoned this card, you win the duel."
I have a crazy idea for trap cards. On turn 0 both players may set s/t from their hand during the SP.
6:15 i mean, ghostrick jackforst saw play in 2018, which has been a while, but stil shows that it isnt completely impossible for them to see niche play
I feel we need more Decks that are good going second without having too many one card combos. I think Unchained was an interesting Deck. Unchained was not too oppressive going first but had decent strategies to play into boards. It mainly had two cards combos.
Nowadays there are so many one card combos where we need to stop it turn 0 or we autolose. And if you go second you are on a bad spot already. The way is not to fix it with handtraps in my opinion.
Make engines stronger going 2nd but more engine required, so you are not able to play 15 handtraps in a deck. It would make the game more interactive while leaving handtraps at an okayish spot where they weaken the board but not stop the opponent completely
think having so many cards that one card combo into practically the same board is why i hate about modern decks. like theres a difference between something like imperm on mo ye and them having longyuan in hand or something like blackout letting them pass on a decent enough board and something like snake eyes or cyberse where they'd essentially still end on the same board as if they werent handtrapped
I think a good way to fix the roach is simply put on the card the words "(Max. 2)" Make it so roach stops drawing after 2. Yeah every deck will still play it, but realistically roach draw 2 is just pot of desires.
My idea for a somewhat nerfed maxx "C":
Mid "C":
During opponents turn, if you control no monster you can special summon it. If summoned that way, it gains the maxx c draw effects until the end of the turn as a continuus effect.
It then banishes itself at the end of the turn.
So it's a maxx c that dies to any form of monster removal or negate
I don’t hate it. Also having no monsters on the field pre summon stops people that go first that build a massive end board then also use it on your turn
Make a hand trap that locks your opponent into their engine. Ie super heavy samurai can still have its op cards but they have to end on a SHS board
The game's card text doesn't really work that way... "Choose a word in a the original name of your opponent's monster with the highest ATK; they cannot Special Summon monsters for the rest of the turn, except for monsters that have that word in their original name"
That just means you could pick the unique part of their name like Wakaushi and you just did the same thing as a Gimmick Puppet Nightmare lock
1:30:44 the best way to errata maxx c is make it have same restrictions that gamma/imperm has
"can only activate when you dont control monster or dont have cards on the field"
maxx c resolving on turn2 and top of a negate city board
is the most frustrating thing a turn2 player can experience
Im surprised you guys didn’t mention spirit of Neos/photon jumper for modern battle traps. I actually think spirit of Neos is a good example of an archetype battle trap, because it’s a lingering effect and not a monster effect so it’s very hard to negate.
Keep making these
I think dark spirits are an interesting battle hand trap that has power creeped fader/goes even though it’s seen no real play
For the engagement, I'll comment two versions of a possible new handtrap I thought up:
"Mist veiler" Level 1 WATER/fairy/tuner ATK:100/DEF:100
ver1: if your opponent special summons a monster(s) from their hand or main deck: you can discard this card, then target 1 of those monsters; banish it until the next standby phase. (This intentionally has no OPT, it lets you keep discarding to temporarily deny bodies to your opponent).
Ver2: If your opponent special summons exactly 1 monster, while you control no monsters: special summon this card from your hand, then banish that opponent's monster until this card leaves the field or is used as xyz material. This card cannot be destroyed by battle during the turn it is special summoned. HOPT
The issue is there is no solution anymore. Hand Traps are bandaids to Combo End Boards. Combo End Boards are bandaids that get stronger to play through Hand Traps. This makes the Hand Traps have to be stronger to stop the bullshit Combo Decks from ending on Apo/Barrone/Savage/Etc.
It is a cycle that will never end as long Modern Yugioh exists the gradual Power Creep will never stop. It can't. Konami HAS to print more broken effects and cards and archetypes to bait players into gambling their money on card packs. They HAVE to print Chase Cards or noone will buy the boxes when they already have a Meta Deck built. So they print a deck that makes the prior format worse by comparison.
Yugioh cannot be saved short of a Massive Overhaul of the Game. It will progressively get more and more toxic.
My favourite hand trap by far is Havis. In-engine non garneted chance to just start your turn
Haven't watched the vod yet but will drop another take after I watch the full thing, but scanning over the comments, I honestly do not understand why there needs to be a nerfed Maxx "C" for it to be legal at this point. In the TCG we have to stuff an over abundance of hand traps in to deal with Snake-Eye Pure/FK rn, and OCG lists like Tenpei have been using upwards of 22 hand traps to deal with the metagame. This is honestly extremely unhealthy for the game. Right now Maxx "C" imo could be unbanned and be left as is. I honestly think hand traps was one of the most unhealthy things they had designed, but they had to be used as a band-aid to fix the power creep of the game. You can say the same about Maxx "C" rn, the power creep basically dictates a necessity for the card for other decks to compete and actually full-stop them. Effects that have a blanket effect to do things instead of specifics like Effect Veiler/Imperm/Ash etc. Things like Maxx "C" and Dimensional Shifter are perfect examples of blanket effects. If there were more cards with a blanket effect like that, maybe there wouldn't be a need to stuff a million hand traps into your list, but too many that are disruptive and it ruins the flow of the game. It is honestly a difficult dilemma. The real answer would be for them to peel back on the power creep of the game but they do not intend to do that so shrug, idk what to say.
I liked more the no handtrap metas. Now the cards need to do so much just to play around handtraps.
How about: Maxx 'D' (because funny): If your opponent special summons from the extra deck you can discard this card; during the end phase of this turn draw cards equal to the number of cards your opponent controls then place cards on the bottom of your deck equal to the number of cards you drew -1.
I dont like Droll but I agree it is a necessary evil. Nibiru and Shifter on the other hand are horrible. A problem with venting in the YGO community is a lot of people just troll and just say “get gud” “dont play that deck then” “draw the out” or something similar. As someone who loves trying to push rogue decks like Salamangreat I can’t tell you how frustrating and demotivating it is to get hit by Nibs and Shifters that just shut you down.
So hand traps are directly analogous to instants in MtG or fast speed spells in LoR. They come directly from the hand, impact the game immediately without creating a lasting board based influence, and get sent to the grave/cease being a factor upon resolution. In MtG and LoR, spells/instants aren't at all egregious. They're core elements of the game you play around and where a lot of the game's depth comes from.
Hand traps probably feel more egregious in Yugioh than in other games because in the early days of the game yugioh put a lot of emphasis on setting backrow cards as a form of telegraphing your intentions and capabilities. Playing around your opponent's single set backrow card is a lot different than playing around every card in their hand.
Once again this comes back to the fact that Yugioh has no universal resource like mana. Other card games have direct equivalents to hand traps, but they don't run into this "out of nowhere/huge burden to play around" problem that Yugioh's hand traps have. Universal resources like mana are a huge reason that handtraps/instants feel better in MtG than in Yugioh. Resource systems intrinsically telegraph your opponent's intention/options *and* they give you more means to play around these things. You can force your opponent to tap below the mana necessary to use an important instant and using one deprives you of the universal resource to use other cards. Yugioh has to invent non-universal telegraphs and opportunity costs for their handtraps because of this absence of a universal resource. Things like Nib's summon count or being locked out of an action. But those aren't often that helpful because first all hand traps having different clauses and resources is a knowledge burden nightmare and two different decks value or dismiss those costs and resources differently. Some decks can effortlessly play through nib or ash, some decks can play around but not through them, some can play through but not around them, some instantly lose to them etc.
The biggest thing is that Yugioh games are so fucking truncated that despite a turn being 30+ minutes with more than 20 cards or actions being activated or moved around, hand traps can often be single card game determinative plays, in turn a consequence of games being over after turn 2. The issue with hand traps is the same issue as 1 card board breakers/going second staples like evenly or dark ruler. They're both entirely necessary to balance out the absurdly massive advantage the going first player has, and are sacky as hell and promote "did you open the out? Go fish." Level gameplay.
Handtraps in MTG are Force of Will, Force of Negation, Pact of Negation, Mental Misstep, Surgical Extraction, Fairy Macabre and Evoke Elementals (I know Im missing some but those are the big ones). That is directly analogous because they dont cost mana and can be played on your opponents turn.
Evoke Elementals warped Modern to the point that it now looks like Legacy did pre-MH1. Force of Will is one of the most played cards in every format that its legal in. So yes they are egregious because the ones that arent sideboard tech warp or define entire formats.
@@Koalogy That's exactly my point though, is that cards played directly from hand on the opponent's turn are only problems in other games if they don't cost a visible resource. Yugioh has no universal visible resource, which means that they can't have a fair spell/instant equivalent, all of them are force of will-esque (only without colour restrictions/delayed costs/pitch costs). The need to play trap cards in advance was clearly a means of circumventing this issue that fell by the wayside when games became too fast.
You spoke about Starstrike Blast, would it be worth it to make an episode about cards that were overlooked on release? Solemn Judgment is another big example. Gamma too as you mentioned
Called by was released in the same set as:
Impermanence and iron dragon tiamaton.
-Both not hit by called by.
my biggest complaint or at least what i seem to run into almost every other game is decks that just out grind any interruption and or i don't have any interruption and just lose because they have a end bord with like 4-7 negates and i literally just can't play. I can't get over the time i was playing lab vs. snake eyes i read them like a book they had like 5 cards on the field and 4 in the hand i got witch's strike to destroy everything wiped the bored and hand and they came back and won it was stupid and i had used nib to its just ridiculous
Exosister was not a good example used to describe a hand trap deck when the decks only one card combo is Aratama. Everything else is 2 card and it can’t even play quite a few of them like nibiru and gamma.
The best battle Handtrap is a Ritual Wind Dragon level 9 Monster called Beaufort IX - The Raging Storm Dragon.
It negates one attack and negate the effects permanently of that monster, if it was unresponsive it would be really good.
Nah I think it's Emissary from the House of Wax now. It's basically Gorz on crack. It specials from hand on attack dec, then it's an illusion that can't be destroyed by battle and at the end of battle phase applies warning point's effect to every monster on your opponent's field. So now they can't use any monster on their field for any summon type, their effects are negated, and they can't change battle position.
@@king_acceler8755 Wow, I didn't know this card existed... It sounds incredible.
@@asafesseidonsapphireits a battle trap (which inheritantly makes it slow) and it can be negated.
@@ThatOneWeirdFlex doesn't mean it's inherently bad though, a card can be good but not competitively viable.
The obvious Maxx C errata, in my opinion, is "if you control no cards on the field and your opponent special summons a monster, you can discard this card and draw 2 cards", hard once per turn, etc
It's not too strong that it automatically wins you the game, and it removes the most toxic aspect of getting maxx Ced when your opponent already has a board set up
This a more generic phantazmay like card, that would be good in most formats but not as broken as Maxx "C". That's good design.
Just saw the title and I’d like to give my take. I dislike handtraps because it takes away the soul of what duels should be.
I like watching back and forth with only engine cause the moment a HT stops me it’s like oh he opened “x” handtrap.
Hell I made my own imaginary format with no handtraps to see what fun could be had and you’ll never imagine what went down in those games of purely engine and fun.
They’re nesscary at top levels absolutely but can we have a fun format?
a simple errata on max c saying "you can't use this card on opponents turn if you summoned more than twice in your previous turn" for example could maybe stop the stupid situation where you go full combo on your turn and then just max c the opponent on their turn on top of your full combo.. it could still keep in check many stupidly heavy combo decks that play through 2-3 hand traps and still end up on like 5 negates but it wouldn't be a problem on the next turn as well
I only recently got back into yugioh and 1 of my biggest issues is the unnecessary jammed up card text. For example if a card says"this card cannot be targeted or destroyed by card effects" just say (Immunity) Targeting effects/destruction. This is just a small example, other cqrss have multiple effects that could be shortened.
"Elephant of the room"
Oh, do you mean, Elephant Statue of Disaster? :-P
Hand traps should have always been an archetype for the most part. Maxxc wasn't a problem when special summoning was limited and not every deck had effects in the graveyard.
[card name] Minn "C" (as opposed to Maxx "C")
"during either player's turn, you send this card from your hand to your graveyard; until the end phase, whenever your opponent special summons 1 monster(s), draw 1 card, then place 1 card from your hand on the bottom of your deck, also during the end phase, if your opponent special summoned 8 or more monsters this turn, draw 1 card for every 4 monsters he special summoned. I can only be printed in a non-shortprinted common rarity".
this basically gives you a mulligan, allowing to dig for a good hand to match your opponent's board, but by paying a -1 in the hand, if your opponent does not want to fully play into it. However, if your opponent wants to ignore this, during the EP, you get a net +X, by drawing some amount of cards, resulting in a quarter of maxx "C". this way, any deck can play into it, but doing that does not mean you're gonna lose the game.
Hand trap idea: During the main phase 2 if your opponent has activated a monster effect this turn they must set 1 card or destroy 1 card they control
I had always wanted a hand trap that just compulse, moon or farfa. Also make them traps like imperm instead of monsters.
handtraps are awesome with the exception of maxx c, shifter and maybe droll
You cant disrespect my boy hedge guard like that. It saw some niche play in Glad Beasts... :)
nerfed maxx "c" idea; "If your opponent special summons a monster you can discard this card from your hand; during the end phase of this turn draw 1 card for every special summoned monster your opponent controls (hard once of course)" wondering what people would think of this or if its still too much
can you discuss all the arguments about "yugioh is dying" and try to see which one is true
I wouldn't say it's dying. It's increasingly unrecognizable.
We don’t have Ycs in EU what is there to discus bud ? Master duels lost 90% players in First 2 months, official steam statistics, komany did something wrong and this ygo is just bad.
@@obrenovic4130Master duel is a bad example. The majority if not every game has a huge drop off after release
@@tbates2906copium
Most bad games do
I think cards like droll and nibiru are powerful but fair, because they allow the other player to make plays before being live, many times a good player keeping them in mind can minimise their impact or prevent them altogether. Cards like maxx C and shifter don't fall on that category, they are "draw the out or perish" cards, that's why we see the same anti-maxx C cards in every deck.
*Laughing emoji*
Talents is definitely more fair than something like called by
Did y’all discuss how at Team YCS Las Vegas one of the decks being played was running 20 hand traps!? Not to mention broken strategies with no locks
The only 2/3 hand traps that are problematic are droll and shifter, maxx c in MD. Droll and shifter are problems because they’re floodgates. Maxx c just shouldn’t exist, idk why konami won’t ban it, they know it’s a problem ut they’re worried their OCG babies will cry.
Primal Countdown:
If your opponent summons a monster you can activate this effect: this card in your hand becomes revealed until the end of your opponents turn. If your opponent summons 4 more monsters while this card is revealed then tribute this card and all monsters on the field and special summon Nibiru the primal being from your hand, deck and GY. If this card is still revealed at the end of your opponents turn discard this card and draw 1 card.
🪳
A monster that summons itself on atk dec and:
Destroys the monster
Negates the eff while the monster is on board
Draws cards equal to the difference in monsters
Banishes from field/hand
And make it so your opponent can’t respond with card effects on field. I call em “Cy-Frames” 😂
Maybe mid range decks should get archetypal handtraps, locking you into the archetype, so they stand more of a chance and combo decks cannot yoink the card and use it for evil.
The player who goes 2nd needs a turn 0 where they can set only traps. This allows for more interaction and it makes traps more relevant.
This is only really a proper solution if you get to side in cards before game 1
@tinfoilslacks3750 It worked in the UDS where Jesse Kotton won playing FK snake eyes. All competitors got lists before playing the duels and it didn't seem to negatively effect the tournament. I can see a world where this happens.
Go second Draw 2, max rival is drol, lower summon cap to 5 for low rankers