The Extra Deck - Is This RUINING Yu-Gi-Oh!? The Great debate | Heart of the Cast #12
Вставка
- Опубліковано 14 кві 2024
- In this episode @Farfa & @JoshuaSchmidtYGO discuss the biggest sore spot for Yu-Gi-Oh!'s wombo combo and fast playstyles - the extra deck! Should it be reduced? Should we ban generic cards? What do we think of boss monsters? All will be discussed today!
--------------------------------------------------------------
twitch.tv/farfa
twitch.tv/joshuaschmidtygo - Ігри
1:35:46
I think it’s important to recontextualize that these broken monsters like halq verte and electrumite were made during an era when you literally needed link monsters in order to play any other extra deck mechanic.
Truthfully master rule 4 and its revision are the biggest cause of power creep.
Like originally the combos of non link decks were limited cause you couldn’t get more than 2-3 non link extra deck monsters. And so those monsters had to be made better. But then the floodgates got unleashed and the restrictions were removed meaning now you can spam your extra deck summons again. However you also have all the powerful support for those other non-link mechanics and now their main restriction is gone
Verte is a bad example, it was broken forever, and even with mr4 it wouldnt have mattered, you'd still play a link climbing deck like say thundra for example, drop a colossus under verte and go into dpe if dpe had released. Verte was a mistake on release, at least halq and electrumite do have the mr4 excuse though. Mr4 doesnt prevent ip w/ verte > dpe make apo next turn.
Fun fact: Transcode Talker could only target Code Talkers in the anime. They decided to buff the extender when it came to the game for whatever reason.
...But Hip Hippo counting as two tributes and having it's effect live when special summoned was just too strong
@@mickjaegar2379 Arc-V is especially funny because every Phantom Knight and most Speedroids gained Circular-like buffs proportionate to that era for no reason. None of the PKs had GY effs in the anime, nor could Break Sword pop things. Terrortop was just a free summon with no search, Taketomborg didnt tag out, Red-Eyed Dice didnt level manip, Speed Recovery gained a GY effect, Kendama gained a revive (and still wasnt played), and Chanbara gained a recursive effect
@@idalwave In Yuto's duel in episode 7 against Sylvio, he used graveyard effects of PK cards. They were cards that don't exist in paper (The Phantom Knights of Shadow Veil and Phantom Knights' Spear) but it's not like the idea of them having graveyard effects came out of nowhere.
A link 2 I really enjoyed the design of is D/D/D Gilgamesh, it enabled the deck to actually pend summon, locks you into D/Ds, the scales set depend on what you’ve drawn and isn’t horrible as an end board.
The unfortunate part of it is that with the D/D lock, once the deck got dated, it’s dead until their next support. Especially as most Pend support printed are monsters or links, which they can’t use.
I honestly think d/d/d is at a perfect power level. If your combo goes off, there isn't much that can break your board besides drawing very specific cards.
You have multiple snatch steals, spell/trap negation, summon negation, and multiple searchable floodgates to counter literally any deck
@@bobhouses2036issue is deck just đie to one imperm :(
@phuongnguyennhu1162 not anymore after yubel support. In testing I play through usually 3 hand traps including 1 or 2 imperm/veilers
D/D/D getting another link would be awesome
@@bobhouses2036 Yeah the end board is crazy!
This discussion is somewhat interesting as Dragon Ball Super's card game started without an extra deck, but developed one late into the game's life cycle. Out of the gate, the extra deck cards were focused more on being impactful bodies, either being solid removal, impactful finisher, or a towers, all of which would be made reliable to access. Not all decks could utilize this new extra deck and some of the introduced/reintroduced archetypes seriously benefitted from this change. Later on, they introduced some extra deck cards that improved consistency, though they're limited to specific archetypes and they're very difficult to mix around.
Dragon Ball Super has splintered into two formats, Masters and Fusion World. Masters is the continuation of the run from 2017, while Fusion World is a reboot that looked to clean up the game, removing problem areas while retaining the core gameplay that popularized the game. Masters is bloated with effects, floodgates, and power to the point that it's simplified the game to who goes first and if you have the floodgates. Fusion World cut out counters (a mechanic that has frequently been a problem for one reason or another) and printed cards with 1-2 simple effects, which is quite refreshing compared to Master's 2-3 multi sentence effects (tbf, it's still easier to navigate than Yu-Gi-Oh cards since effects are prefaced with what type of effect it is (Activate:, Counter:, Auto, Permanent)
I found Fusion World extremely repetitive and boring compared to One Piece
@@casuallydone468 I'm talking back in like 2017 and 2018. Fusion World is still somewhat neat, but it's missing Counter: Play and Counter: Attack for more interaction. It's one thing to combo out of an attack, it's another to be mindful of play lines with something like Lineage Storm or Chain Attack Zen-Oh.
Karakuri is the first deck I can think of where the extra deck pieces where extenders to get you more things from the main deck.
Also, the argument against generic extra deck utility monsters (the knightmares especially) is that no deck ever has a weakness anymore.
Wait, what? No! People make Bagookska on end boards all the time!? He's there with Appo, or on most Salad end boards! And even if you make him next to a card like Baronne, that just makes Baronne the plan B for main phase 2!? Like, sure, there are link summons, but lots of decks can't make a generic out under Bagooska!
@most hilarious board i ever did with bagouska was use to to lock down opponents negates then use sprigan to go into megaclops and resummon bagooskaminabasejderha5972
Something I’m surprised I don’t see more people talk about is that I think Konami has (knock on wood) largely recognized their design mistake on the generic link extenders. Especially in the TCG, basically all of those cards are banned now (Isolde, Halq, Auroradon, Knightmare Goblin & and Mermaid, etc) and they haven’t printed anything since that is even close to what these cards once were for years. The closest thing is the errata for Summon Sorceress, but has been made less generic and wasn’t brought back on even the most recent list for TCG. I think a lot of these cards were overcorrections for MR4, some of which lingered into MR5
You can definitely argue Heatsoul and more particularly Princess on the power level of Isolde as an extender. Princess is an insane extender going second, and heatsoul is amazing.
The Extra Deck is probably the most iconic mechanic in Yugioh ever since 5Ds. It's also one of the game's most fun but also most flawed mechanics.
The upside is that the Extra Deck gives players this feeling of piloting a super well oiled machine compared to the more slowly paced "I draw a card, I play a card, I end my turn"-type of play a lot of other, mostly Mana based card games like MtG or Runeterra provide. Nothing against those card games btw, I love them but there's really not many decks in those games that quite scratch the same itch, not even the combo decks. Because while you do get to play a lot of cards and effects in one turn, most combo decks in MtG are linear compared to combos in Yugioh which to some extent depending on the deck of course can have vastly different combo trees and play lines (and I'm not using the Yugioh-specific meaning of "combo" here because in my eyes every modern Yugioh deck is a combo deck).
However I still think the Extra Deck as a mechanic is ultimately GIGA-flawed, especially in modern Yugioh. First of all there's no downside to an Extra Deck, even in decks like say 2013/14 Spellbooks it was optimal to run 15 Extra Deck monsters because you simply did not have any incentive not to despite the deck barely going into these monsters at all. The only time you don't run an Extra Deck is if there's a card or effect that specifically says you can't like Domain Monarchs. Which brings me to my next point: remember how in the earlier days of Dueling Network people made fun of the "No Synchro, no Xyz"-lobby people? Well, my hot take is that they had a point to some extent: Yugiboomers probably wouldn't even hate Extra Deck mechanics so much if 98% of playable decks weren't completely built around them. For every Spellbooks, Monarchs or Flu there is 50 different decks that inevitably involve some amount of Extra Deck spam.
This might also be one of the reasons why people generally like Edison so much. It's the format that probably comes closest to hitting the perfect sweetspot in between. But pretty much every other post Synchro era format will mostly just have 98% Extra Deck usage. I think the last chance the game ever had of returning to a somewhat reasonable state with consequent help of the banlist was in like 2017 before Zoodiac format. Zoodiac was technically an Xyz deck but I always thought of that archetype as the blueprint for the 1-card starter and Link 1 design, a design that made the game pass the modern Yugioh event horizon. And now after 15 years of intentional(!) Extra Deck power creep since the Synchro era began there is no way to close that Pandora's box ever again. The only chance to escape this would be for Konami to introduce a new set rotational format with less power creep but that is sadly not going to happen.
Duel links started as this
The timing is hilarious 😂
this aged like milk
☠️ went bad in one hour
xdd
Even more reason to post it, funny 😅
Lol damn this pre-banlist???
@@jeremydyar7566 yes
Konami has Fortnite Built themselves a skybase into the heavens and can't get down to redesign the foundation of Yugioh, and they can't get down without killing themselves. They can't redesign the game without killing half their combo-player playerbase. They can't design more fair cards because they aren't better than what was before and so they have to Powercreep the base higher and higher into the sky.
The Extra Deck is a problem due to being Generic. When every new Archetype video is like Dkayed(No offense to him) is saying "This new Archetype is CRAZY!" and then shows 3 new cards and combos that end on the same Baronne/Access code end boards you know there is a problem.
Omni-Negates aren't the problem. FREE Omni-Negates are. Myutant and Invoked Mechaba are perfectly fine. Myutant main deck monsters have specified Negates like Beast Negates Spells. The Extra Deck Myutant boss and Invoked Mechaba have to banish or discard the exact same type of card. This is making the Negate come with a cost that balances out how powerful a Negate is.
Free negates should be hard to get, because a free omni is a great effect that doesn't take much space. This still makes the likes of Quasar strong af without needing too much words.
Generic omnis are like peanut butter and pickles. Good on their own, but don't put them together
Does that mean the new Genex ED was a fine negater?
This is not really because of Konami, really, this is because of the OCG player base, they love these strategies tcg sees them like a cancer, ocg see them as part of the game and enjoy them. The game is what it is because of the Asian fanbase, not because of TCG, thank god.
@@retana6135 No its Konami fault they powercrept their cards out of existance due to simple fact YuGioh has no tradition or base line rules that no new format or archetype can chnage or bend like in Magic the Gathering.
Josh was absolutely spitting facts on this one. Loved the nuanced discussion. I hope someone from Konami sees this and takes notes.
3:34
There came the german "doch" :D:D:D
Thought we wouldn't notice, but we did :P
went into comments to look for this xD The german came out for a sec there
Omg I was searching for this
Just dropped. Funny the list just came out
what a great timing, lol
The recording of this happening before the most recent list reveal but it being uploaded after the reveal makes this a bit interesting to listen to, from a hindsight perspective on certain cards that got hit.
19:47 Example for farfa a good extra deck combo extender that stays locked to the archetype xtra hero cross crusader. Gives you a body on board and a generic hero search.
Here is the discussion I would like to see, I would like to know how you would fix the game for the "Rogue Decks"/Budget Players. A secondary format? A ton of legacy support?
In so many ways, with each new meta relevant deck and power creep I feel like the older cards become useless card board outside of niche cases.
Is it ever worrisome for the health of the game that new players are literally taught by watching videos like this that they are "bad players" (using Josh's words) not because of their skill level but because they WANT to play a deck outside of the meta. How do you resolve these issues and make the game fun and meaningful for players outside of the meta?
You hound Konami, the ones with the power. Top players want a balanced game, that's all. Stop fighting amongst yourselves and hold the faceless conglomerate accountable.
@@PathBeyondTheDark They asked in the video for discussion topics that viewers would like to see. I simply said the discussion topic I would like to see. I think it's an interesting topic that two people deep into the game might have interesting insight on.
I'm not thinking they have the power to implement any changes. I don't think they wrote the ban list. I certainly wasn't fighting with anyone. Hope that clears up any confusion. 👍
The rogue players thing isn’t something that can be fixed. Even in a lower power format you’ll have rogue decks that’ll struggle to compete. Barring busted support, there’s nothing that can be done to make something like Fortune Lady playable outside of Duel Links. And even if there’s broken support, it usually just becomes the archetype and becomes a massive choke point, where you win if it resolves and lose if it doesn’t. Old decks not being playable at the top level years down the line is fine. I personally love Mermail and have it blinged out. I also understand that the deck sucks by today’s standards.
As for budget, they’re currently working on that with the Rarity Collections. Yeah Baronne and Savage got banned, but that’s not a product issue, that’s a these cards have been legal for years despite being busted out the ass problem. Loads of people were calling for Baronne to get hit during Swordsoul Branded format and the card didn’t get any less ubiquitous since then. Watching people suddenly decide the card is totally cool now that they can afford it was just mind blowing.
More stuff like RC or Duel Devastator with ghost girl reprints is the best bet. Staples will always demand a higher price point, which we’ve seen with literal $20 price points on Duel Devestator and structure deck common Ash Blossoms. Hell the Bystials being $20+ super rares also shows how demand drives price more than anything. Making the staples more accessible with these sorts of reprints will help though. Even at $20 apiece for the commons, loads of people were able to play Ash that formerly couldn’t when it was $50+. Same goes with side set reprints. Yeah them being short printed sucks, but they always quite literally slash the price of whatever card it is in half.
@@brianmead1983 Very fair
Decks should get 1-2 cards of support every 3-4 years regardless of what else happens, kinda like Striker and Salad have gotten (Still waiting for a single new really independently solid Thundra main deck card that incentivizes me to play the archetype Link 4 with a great discard effect like a draw 2 or something)
One of the best extra deck monsters Konami has ever designed is Dingirsu. While is a generic rank 8, is easy to summon in the intended deck, it recycles banished resources, is removal, can be used as disruption in the intended deck, has protection and even had a clause that says you can only summon it once per turn. This sounds very powerful, but has anyone ever asked for it to get banned?
Actually, yes. Dingirsu was extremely annoying back in T.O.S.S. format for non-T.O.S.S. to deal with. Full field protection and Non-targeting, non-destruction removal quick play is still kinda cracked. Although, people asked for the field spell to be banned more.
@@dhantefranklin336 Well, the field spell is what let that deck play in both turns and that's what makes a yugioh deck playable.
@@Ragnarok540 Correct.
Honestly can't wait to play orcust again with harp at 3 XD.
It's probably not good, since it relied on like every banned link monster, but it's still a cool control deck
Absolutely. If they were gonna hit Orcust back then I would’ve banned dingursu and throw Harp Horror and Galatea to 1.
the process of building a board in yugioh is very linear and got old for me, personally
right now im on a yugioh hiatus and am playing EDH but I'm hoping something brings me back to Yu-Gi-Oh
17:30 the first was more in lines of EHERO Electrum and The Shining. They were used to recycle each other for an FTK or to perform loops. Chimeratech and FHD was also used in the same way to simply dump resources via FF
I only really play gamble decks which is what keeps me into the game. Doing the same thing over and over makes me get old of the game very fast.
Banlist Style like Duel links has, would help ALOT
Oh yes, should Barrone and savage be ban discussion. XD
The problem is that boss monsters all amount to your opponent cannot play the game ie negate. The game lost its flavor when the win condition are that your opponent cannot yu gi oh.
Assume this is pre-list?
It's from 10 days ago.
@@zell245thank you 🙏
Love the podcasts so far, would be awesome to see other content creators as guest too someday :)
I like boss monsters like Purrely Noir. It's not just about summoning the boss but you need to "feed" it with your engine and the more you do the better it becomes, but also deck can use little XYZ as toolbox removals (negate, attach, return) and that gives not only a end board boss but also a way to clean up the board going 2nd
Omg I have never been here before but I love the idea of a yugioh podcast. Subbed!
Looking forward to their banlist discussion next week
I think an interesting alternative to the "20" extra deck is to have an Extra Side Deck that allows 5 cards. Im aware you can do this normally but then it runs the risk of giving up say 5 slots that could be more match up variables.
@52:07 I hear you josh but what about Mathmech Circular.
Access Code Talker should have required a cyberse monster to gain attack. It could then be properly balanced as part of the whole cyberse super type deck, while still being a unique and powerful board clearing option.
“You can only activate 1 of this card’s effects per turn, unless “Decode Talker” in your GY”. is my preferred readjustment for it, if we want to scale the game wayyyyy back.
You either get 1 pop, the boost, play on theme, or jam Decode Talker in your list. All while being vulnerable to Crow, and later, Bystials
@@idalwave yeah, my suggestion wasn't for a rework. Just an adjustment since I don't think the current game should fear Access Code's multiple destructions. If the attack gain could only target cyberse, it would go a long way to limit the Knightmare Unicorn or Selene into access code situations. Decks that have their own otk monsters should be encouraged to use them. Battle is mostly a formally nowadays, but only because people have given up on defense with Access Code around. Extra deck monsters should not be generic AND game winning alone.
It's why S:P and Typhon, even Psychic end Punisher, are okay in my eyes because of their drawbacks and restrictions. Something like Beyond the Pendulum is just on the border. In practice getting the destroy two is rather easy, but you must destroy two exactly. So really only good going second. The search is risky, but not a hard once unless the search is completed and then locks you out of monster and scale effects until you pendulum summon. All this, but it doesn't get scales by itself, so it works as an extender, not a one card combo. It's a really well designed card, that will only be broken if Pendulum's themselves are broken.
@@idalwaveAlso the cyberse super type just has too many tools. Cyberse have Access Code would just be another of their game enders, so limiting Access Code to them makes it easier to regulate. Access Code shouldn't get in the way of game balance as a whole. As long as Konami doesn't create a generic link cyberse monster that lets you pivot from anything into the cyberse extra deck package again and easily then it will be fine.
4:35 Really hilarious that everyone in America is trying to get their hands on Euro print cards, we view them as much prettier than ours!
The next topic should be the new ban list, it ties into this discusion so well.
It wouldn't really apply to a format like Master Duel, but what about a side deck just for extra deck spots? Like 3 or so to flex what you can put there without affecting main deck side decking? Could help certain decks with navigating match ups that are unfavorable
The fact that links aren't as hated or even more scrutinized than pendulum summoning was is a sin in this community.
TCG hates pends more than links. Meanwhile in the OCG, the Link era almost killed Yugioh because a majority of the playerbase dropped the game.
@ryuuohdeltaplus7936 The player base was ripped in half because of links and never recovered. I quit in the beginning of 2020 because I knew the 'mistakes' Komoney was making would never end.
@@dhantefranklin336 If only I had that foresight.
I think it's cause pend is just a convoluted mess. I don't play the game, but I watch a LOT of Master duel yt content, and I still don't know what pend summoning does.
The basic rule is easy to get with them being cards and spells at the same time with different effects depending on whether they're ser as scales or monsters, with scales and levels and setting the scales and the summoned monsters having to have levels between the scale numbers. It's convoluted as fuck compared to link summoning already, but it's feasible to understand as a casual. But then sometimes you can only pend summon 1 card while others you can summon multiple. And sometimes you can only summon to zones link monsters point to but sometimes it doesn't matter? Like wtf? And why do they go to the extra deck faceup? What's the point of that? And then you can summon them back from there too? Why are there like 10 rules for this summoning mechanic? Links in comparison might be op, but they're super simple.
@sanhakim1335 Pendulum monsters are just different. That's it. They operate differently, but they still have to play Yu-Gi-Oh like every other mechanic. Everything I hear this sentiment that Pendulum is too difficult to understand hasn't sat down and played it really. Everyone who played Yu-Gi-Oh at my high school understood quickly. The kids at my locals back in the day understood within 10 minutes. My friend, whose first deck was Dinomist, understood even faster, I understood in the first Pendulum structure deck that Pendulum even had (really ass structure deck, by the way). Forgive me if I sound rude, but I truly think that people who say that Pendulum summoning was/is hard really don't care to understand the Pendulum mechanic rather than it being too hard. That's fine, but I think it's just a comprehension issue, not a pendulum issue.
1:23:53 I’m here Josh🙌 *glances at Mathmech deck gathering dust after Circular ban*
(I built Salad over a year before its fine)
It's interesting to observe Josh's bias towards Salamangreat. If Mannadium summons most of their Extra Deck turn 1 and has little room for utility, that's balanced, but when Salamangreat has to give up slots for bonus effects, it's an unfair disadvantage. I can understand why he would feel this way, after all Salamangreat is a very fair deck, while Mannadium is pretty toxic and uninteractive, not to mention much stronger recently.
But Salamangreat was designed like this for a reason: You can make your cards more powerful, but have to pay a price in deckbuilding. It's a cool dynamic that gives agency to the player. If you wanted to ignore it, which is essentially what increasing the Extra Deck size for specifically Salamangreat wold do, you might as well make Sunlight Wolf 2, which just has all the effects without needing to be reincarnated. That way you don't even have to play the bricky Field Spell anymore! But at the same time the deck would lose its identity and ironically feel more like other Cyberse piles, which is the last thing a real Salamangreat enjoyer would want.
Personally I don't like the idea of breaking deckbuilding rules at all. If my opponent shows up with a 20 card Extra Deck, that's just weird.
On the other hand I'm all for breaking deckbuilding conventions, which is something cards like Grass, Extravagance, Sekka's Light and Anchamoufrite do. Some of those cards are certainly healthier than others, but they encourage unique deck construction, which I find fun.
You do realize that if one is fair and one is unfair, toxic, and uninteractive, distinguishing between them is not bias, right?
Id love for extra copies of cards not to cost deck slots tbh
Unfortunate that this came out after the ban list lol that said if you're taking suggestions on another topic I would love to get another set rotation conversation going
Something like Ghoti is probably a good example of combo piece extra deck monsters are healthy because they are locked to fish specifically help the Ghoti gameplan
This video was released, or at least i saw this up so close to the release of the new banlist that I thought it was made because of the banlist. But it was made before, and wow I’m sure yall were happy to see Baronne gone. Apo is probably gonna be seeing its last days
Im glad youtubers beyond Team APS are starting to change their tune regarding generic omnis. Long overdue. We should give that card design the same level of disdain as floodgates.
Probably because it felt like a pipe dream for Konami to actually make a move on them considering Apo and Savage are both around 5 years old each, and Baronne has been a staple in EDs for 2
@AzzyReal I think Apollousa is fine at this point with Baronne and Savage gone. It’s realistically just 1 monster negate since it’s usually made with 3 materials and 1600 isn’t hard to run over in battle. The bigger issue was having omni negates to back up the Apollousa so stuff like Imperm didn’t work
@dariuspenner2528 Nah. Apollousa needed to go the moment it showed up. Burn the Goddess!
@@dariuspenner2528never had a issue with apholoussa till se before hand only way to protect was chaos angel but u sacrificed banish for it and it had a high cost to summon
@ Someone-lg6di Apollousa has been 1 of the big 3 in every bullshit combo end board, the other 2 offenders being Baronne and Savage. It’s been a problem since Adamancipator Eldlich format at the absolute latest, but only because that deck could pair it with omni negates so you can actually benefit from all the monster negates. Adamancipator, SHS, Adamancipator, Infernoble, etc. all ended on pretty much the same end board
Shout out to Rush bringing back fusions that require specific named materials and Maximums being a main deck special summoning mechanic that also works as tribute summons (only the new ones but still)
On the topic of adding extra cards to the extra deck. I think 15 is fine but I would like it if there were dedicated slots in the side deck that were only for extra deck pieces. Maybe 15 side deck cards could be main deck cards and 5 could be extra deck cards. Thoughts?
I really enjoyed the more casual first ten minutes
I agree that I would prefer cards with 2-3 weaker effects compared to cards with one very strong and imposing effect like imperial order
Inb4 cat pendulums, thanks Josh😅
Just a thought on the extra deck size discussion. Im someone has never played yugioh outside of playground ygo but loves watching ygo content, so I might be off base with this idea. What would people think about making the extra deck pointed. As in, you get 15 cards and say 15 points to play with but cards have points values, from say 1-3. You could even then consider increasing the amount of cards in the extra while keeping decks that would abuse that more in check. It might be too convoluted and hard to implement a points list ontop of a banlist and all the erratas, as well as being shit for newer players, but maybe say every card is worth 1 point unless its on the points list could be a start. Was just an idea.
On the extra deck idea, what about 15 card names, up to 3 copies (unless the limited list says you can only play 1). That gives you the ability to fulfill engine requirements and have space for utility cards. In the instances of things like pots or unicorn, if a name is taken away from you, you are cut off access to all copies for the remainder of the game
So up to 45 cards on ed? Naaah that sounds too big and game breaking
@@thomasboulousisviolin I suspect that there would be a pretty big group of limits on combo extension extra deck monsters/pieces. It was something that came to me a while ago after hearing a previous version of Josh's salamangreat take, but I definitely haven't figured out all the balance levers.
Fair enough
No
To the part at like 58:00 and following: I agree that generic extra deck stuff facilitates this play pattern of games feeling the same, but I think it's like 10% of "the problem" at best. The much bigger issue that I personally have with modern Yugioh is that the (semi) linear lines towards similar endboards are essentially just different entrypoints into the same 5 minute combo chain.
Some entrypoints leave better results than others, but a lot of it is just a very similar pattern: You play starter X which searches your deck for extender Y and then go into extra deck monster Z which extends further, continuing until you can't. This extra deck monster to extend is often even in-archetype, so the problem of generic stuff doesn't even come in yet. And yes, I am aware that you can reduce the argument to "haha, he gets angry that people play cards to do things you just do in modern Yugioh". But I really think setting up the board turn 1 is literally the least fun aspect of Yugioh because there is very little interaction. And the interaction that is there is just a handtrap on the biggest problem. Then your opponent either is done and most likely loses, or continues with a slightly weaker endboard.
The only real solution in my eyes is reducing the amount of times you search your deck or at the very least make you search for traps or in-archetype hand traps more. That way you make your endboard stronger but you don't get to search for more extenders that can be played immediately and just keep going and going.
I would personally even argue that a big reduction in archetype consistency (much fewer/weaker search effects) would open the doors for a mulligan to be introduced. I know it sounds very scary (and without my proposed changes it would be, let's be real) but imo this could result in archetypes and hand traps getting a bit of a similar level of consistency. You have a ton of 1 card combos that just start the combo chain and can all be searched, but if you go second you have to be lucky to draw the right hand trap or board breaker. There are so many different ones and not all work the same against all decks so it often feels like a gamble because hand trap consistency can't keep up with combo consistency. And thus Konami has to print hand traps that effectively end your opponent's turn immediately (droll, shifter, Maxx C) because it's so unlikely to just have them in the opening hand.
Ngl, having less 1-card combos also means you sometimes haven't bricked but end up with confusing lines of play.
this is part of why i like rescue aces design. the "combo" is basically just get hydrant, get turbulence, set 4. r-ace speedruns the turn 1 setup part, while still keeping some setup interactions like emergency to dodge imperm, and ends on a relatively interactive board.
the problem is players having multinegates per turn. thats it. we can pretend its other shit. but its this. its always basically been this.
There needs to be a turn 0 where the person voing second only gets to set traps then the person going first takes their turn.
This would increase interaction and make traps relevant again.
They did an episode for that already I think. Anyway, what kind of traps are we talking about? Floodgates? Labyrinth/Dinomorphia cards? Counter traps?
@@Ragnarok540 Konami is already addressing most floodgates so I don't think there should be restrictions.
I agree, though I think it would only be fair that BOTH players could set s/t cards. No activations, of course.
‘When did extra deck become an end board.’ When synchros came out.. Stardust dragon.. generic and stop destruction and high attacking beater.. even earlier, collasuas was an unkillable tower.
Stardust wasn't an endboard in my opinion, but more of a tool for turn 3-4 or more
And you didn't aim to make the exact same board of unkillable assholes from the extra deck every game during that time.
um thousand eyes restrict is still banned.
extra deck has always been a problem in ygo post 04
@ianslee4765 he isn't tho.
Stardust was rarely an end board pieces after Tele-DaD died. But Tele-DaD was one of if not the first example of "your opponent doesn't get to play" type end boards and Stardust was a big part of that, protecting DaD and perhaps another Synchro but more importantly your backrow consisting of Wing Blast and Solemn Judgement.
1:01:03 I have theory crafted a list of cards to achieve such a format and let's just say it takes a couple more cards than just a 100...
Personally i feel like toolbox boss monsters can work if they require stuff like a specific attribute or specific type. They're splashable, but not fully generic so all decks end on the same endboard (and even then I would argue that reducing a deck to just it's endboard is a bit dishonest)
if decks were judged based off of their potential end board and not how they set them up then red eyes would be a good deck. Too many negates in ygo on end boards. borrelland and barron were generic two card combo finishers that send to the gr(thats plus in ygo now)(tbf xzy is the only extra deck that doesnt) most good decks ended on and those two alone were nearly impossible to get through BEFORE the actual other cards the deck runs
If it's generic, it should be for a specific part of the game. Like a type, or an attribute
If it's generic, it should be for a specific part of the game. Like a type, or an attribute
@@joshuacaesar2025 that's litteraly what I said
I honestly think a reduction in the number of extra deck monsters you can play each turn would be great, and one way to do this would be to have the turn number equal the number of extra deck monsters you can summon in a turn
As a mtg player who watches some yugioh content, negates looks like mtg counterspell so imagine having to fight through multiple counterspell in 1 turn. imo is like floodgating without floodgates and it does feel bad almost solitaire like, specially when every deck can counterspell.
but thats the catch 22, if only 1 deck can counter spel then everyone will play that deck and people who cant afford it or wish not to play it dont have tools to even make it past turn 1.
floodgates and negates and hand traps are so abundant in ygo. people constantly say "play edison" which is just a lazy response. the game was broken then too, but in a different way. no soft limits on summoning or activation per turn is just too loose
@@AzumaRikimaruYugioh's main format is the equivalent of Magic's Legacy; That's the problem.
Legacy is a niche format in Magic where those people like "free negates" and card equivalents to Ash Blossom and Maxx C (Force of Will, Silence) because it is very skillful.
New players will NEVER touch paper yugioh as long as you can setup triple negate boards. New players HATE counterspells in Magic and even more so HATE free counterspells.
The reason you can't overlay with tokens is because tokens can only exist on the field, so using tokens to Xyz summon potentially leads to Xyz summoning a monster with no materials. That would be clunky and weird, nevermind how that would interact with later cards. 50:19
hahaha I love how sometimes a little bit of german slips out of Josh like "oooooooh doch, I mean yeah"
The timing of this 😂
34:23 Drytron isnt even Focused on negates anymuch, tear has more negates with Rulkallos, Chryme and Sulliek.
But the best Example is Superheavy. Appo, Baronne, Savage, Regulus
Instead of Accesscode gaining less or no ATK, he should deal reduced damage.
The actual stat buff is still very much appreciated to out Towers.
1:30:35 josh is cooking here. The nerds, man. They're NOT gonna use extra deck slots in a healthy way AT ALL!
Xyz were beging of the end for how easy it was to access extra deck look at evolution of hero fusions
Bagooska is one of my favourite cards because of both the original and TCG artwork, but it’s the exact opposite of a fair card. Yeah most decks have removal options, but they play it at 1 and search it. Like I play VS and my options into Bagooska are hard rip Dust Devil or open 2 VS monsters so I can normal 1, make Rock, special the other, and then clear with SP. Yeah the Bagooska is gone, but if I didn’t hard open Continue I’m now passing on just SP. I wouldn’t hate the card as much if you could run it over by battle with non-link monsters, but the thing just soaks up your battle phase too for no reason. I also don’t think floodgate monsters should have lingering effects. Dweller wouldn’t be an issue if Book or running it over in battle got the graveyard hate to stop and VFD would’ve been completely fine if it shut off once it left the field
The mismatch feeling on rarities and versions is so true lol hate myself for it.
Plant synchro would combo heavy to end with multiple quasars
As combo player, hard agree with farfa on bagooska. In fact, i think bagooska is hella healthy for the game. Such a well-designed card.
I use it when I'm on a weak board and I'm like "damn lemme protect this buy myself a turn"
control deck players use it to prevent OTKs and force a grind game which I also enjoy.
Its just always a healthy card, whether its used from a combo deck or control. You have many outs to it.
I think EU prints are nicer. They typically look darker. Look at Granguignol that’s like a clear difference in shade.
44:00
Of course the eunuch player doesn’t like attacking
Especially not multiple times with the same card…
(Real talk though accesscode should get the firewall dragon treatment and just be specifically for cyberse)
The glizzy! That's my input
Insane timing
im still waiting for them to put ritual cards into the extra deck.
have something like a extra category for "main deck rituals" that are dual colored like orange bottom half blue top half or so for cards like megaliths, benten or sauravis that have beneficial effects even without the need of being summoned.
i dont get why they never did anything like that.
I really, really wanted a ritual pendulum deck, but I guess that obvious connection is too hard for Komoney.
Try making it optional to put extra deck cards in the deck. Might be funny milling or discarding an elder entity ntss.
I think Savage dragon could have stayed . It insulated for one hand trap in a meta where you’d run into like 2-3 per turn. Baronne should be gone tho, albeit really bc of S:P. S:P being able to reset the Baronne negate every turn is kinda crazy.
Keep in mind this is in reference to this format. I know multi counter Savage dragon used to be a menace in past formats.
Konami should make levels of negates. As an example if barrone's omni negate instead of negating an entire card negated say one effect of a card on that turn maybe it would not be as over powered. The player of the card would need to state which evmffect there negating for the turn but then at least the opponent may still have a chance to play with other effects.
So a full negate would be what we have now and a partial negate could be implemented to even it out more.
I think your version of Baronne is even more powerful than the original, the negate in Baronne is a "when" effect, that means that has to be used in response to an activation, if you could do it any time and not just in response there would not be chain blocking for example to play around it.
@Ragnarok540 fair point. Maybe it would then only negate the effect activated instead of the entire card assuming the card has other effects.
yugioh has definitely become like a 'if you know you know" kinda game. As a veteran also, I just don't bother trying to show ppl. I tried once and the guy just dropped it anyway. Now if ppl ask me about it I just say "If you know you know.." lol
I met my wife during Hat format and I'm lowkey a little salty since everyone considers it such a good format, up there with eddison. Ofc I spent less time on the game to spend time with her.
Is this discussion after the banlist ?
no, before
I'd like to see the extra deck be the same size as the main deck.
If the ED is a toolbox it's more fun to have access to more tools for more scenarios. Limiting ed size isnt the proper way to limit combo spam like plants. Spam should be hit regardless of where its from(main,ed,gy,ban).
If certain cards become problems, you can just change those cards, or the master rule, to use X/15 ratios.
This but you have to draw a hand of accessible ed monsters. Pure, unadulterated chaos
@thedarklight247 no just 60 card extra deck. You can do it on ygopro and it's better, bc you can include all the fun cards that you have to cut off you wanna play standard rules
I yelled Yaaaaay when I heard Josh is getting a kitty
Make the extra 30, but make every card count as 2, except for utility cards (or salads' cards)
Im half joking...
Let's say Konami does an errata to the materials required for Baronne and Borreload Savage, now they require a warrior and dragon tuners respectively. Would that be enough to make them fair?
They would be dropped completely if it's anything like what happened to Goyo Guardian. Borreload might see play if some dragon-link deck comes back and gets unbanned. But generally. It's unlikely if they're not generic enough and unless some deck that happens to makes it very viable to use them... And becomes maybe top tier.
it would mean red eyes would become a good rouge deck.
but yeah, more erratas is needed all around. it helps with old cards being powercrept too.
Eternal soul? let's remove the destruction clause on that bad boy, cause thats bad. unerrata mobc too. let me add a spell each summon per turn if sky strikers exists. Thats it. pretty sure this boosts dm to reasonable to work with.
red eyes fusion? errata "except red eyes/dark/dragon monsters/fusion" thats it. do that and add a red eyes monster that needs generic materials(aqua, machine, etc they already have warrior and dragon) and red eyes is similar to albez but with burns and crafting monsters that counter the cards they use. for instance an aqua red eyes monsters effect should trigger when an opponents monst effect in grave activates. or a thunder monster being activated from the hand ect.
blue eyes is... fine. mostly. it just needs cards that add effects to blue eyes when the bring them out;
eyes of blue card that, whem successfully summoning blue eyes, gives w/e effects. (while keeping it a "normal" monster)
@@ecthelionv2that's exactly the idea, look for example to Baxia, that cards is bonkers but since is limited to wyrm decks no one thinks is actually unfair.
I’ve been saying this for the longest ie Savage requiring Rokkets to make Accesscode requiring Cyberse to make would make them drop significantly because they want to play the boss monsters but not the actual decks and the generic materials is what makes these cards usage high
@@Ragnarok540
But sadly because YGO is not balanced like this to begin with. And that Konami cares not for older archetypes unless they can power creep it. The irony is Generics help weaker decks get leg up.
These guys practically paid the price because they're in meta decks so many times.
No one's complaining about Baxia because it's only used in swordsoul. But everyone is complaining about Barrone and friends because everyone and their mother is playing it and the current god tier deck will just pivot to Fire King - Snake Eyes which is still gonna be T0. And the alternative to play it is. Well. STUN.
My hot take is that the side deck should be expanded to incorporate more ED space. So 15 main deck slots and 5 ED slots on the side deck for a total of a 20 card side deck. That way combo players don’t get more bodies, the extra side deck spaces aren’t being used for more generic floodgates (unless they use floodgate monsters like Bagooska and Dweller I guess).
What do you guy us think?
Pendulum and Ritual don't fit in the extra deck discussion until dimension barrier comes into play, and then they get fucked over anyway..
Also I really do not understand why it's an issue that some decks couldn't run extra deck tech cards. Decks are already being considered good when their main deck can afford to run a ton of non-engine. It's the same thing, it's a complete double standard.
If only this was released a week ago
If only yall put this out sooner lol
“The civies” lol
Reject Extra Deck, return to Bird
Remember be careful with anything electric as they could be harmful and or lethal to you and or other people and or start a fire along with causeing other things.
Remember be careful and stay safe.
These guys have no idea what they're talking about, wrong and biased (i have listened to 27 seconds of this podcast)
Fr they said they won't even agree with each other so are inherently wrong on everything
Yes. I will now watch the video.
We need a limit on the number of effects a player can play on a turn. Chess stays super interesting and its ultra simplified. Its always interactive because there's actually turn based play, yugioh should move back towards that, not only is it more interactive and fair feeling it also is much easier to pick up for new players.
20 side cards but 5 are only for extradeck monsters
put the negates back to traps with conditions linked to a specific deck or board state
This episode aged well
No single card like barrone should have a negate and destroy and a revive
How much would Josh need to be payed to binge the Japanese ver. Of Yugioh Vrains? All 120 episodes.
I think he’ll just be pissed off at Playmaker because he plays cyberse combo pile.
17s a prime number so i agree
34:15 tear has a pop? what card?
perlereino
@@togder damn i forgot about that lol
What’s the point of playing mega decks if they just keep pumping out the same generic extra deck monsters? Why couldn’t they be more like branded despia with its own fusion monsters?
Konami make some dumb rules for no other reason, but they don't like the fact that X mechanic was done by wizards of the coast's MTG first. The extra deck is way past due to be increased to 20(most decks would be more then fine with 17, but some decks actually use the extra deck lol, and now we have to deal with kash or whatnot being able to banish them directly from the extra deck as well), and the side deck should've been 20 from the get go.
Don't get me started about the BS way quick play spells are handled, we should beable to play them from the hand, nomatter who's turn it is, this rule only exists, because Konami wanted the interupt/instant mechanic, while being able to say they didn't copy it from MTG sigh.
PS. I don't think baron is much of a threat in modern yugioh, it really Isn't. I do agree that card of that power level or high should be tied to specific archetypes though. Also Yugio needs a card like IP, and IP should be as useable as it is. We live in a era where reaction is key, and this turns something that normally couldn't be used as a quick effect into one, it also gives flexibility to decks, as there's a ton of different ways you can use it. Without IP, most situational link monsters wouldn't be worth using.