Lord Seeker wasn't possessed the first time you met him, it was just Envy. Envy can take other people's forms and mimic them, but it doesn't have to possess a person while it's doing so.
Cassandra previously pointed out that Seekers are fundamentally immune to possession, so it's impossible for Lucius to be possessed. Plus a powerful demon doesn't need a host as long as the breach exists. It simply stole his face.
He affected the past and intervened before she sent the letter, but time travel is only possible during the rifts existence. That's why he couldn't stop the inquisitor from intervening in the sacrifice or save his son from the dark spawn ambush.
Yeah, Fade is partially seeping into reality basically, and as Solas has told us, time is meaningless in the Fade, so this kinda makes time travel possible within a limited range
he did quite a few recordings in Subnautica - these sounded very Dorian-esque. Then he had a whole recording of a priest screaming and praying before death - he's so good!!
Oh wow really?! I love finding actors in their range of roles - from games to BBC dramas. Stephane Cornicard plays a role in a later area in this game, and when he opened his mouth to speak, I was "Greirat!!!" because Stephane plays Greirat from Dark Souls 3 :-)
@@stitchedfreedom OHH that makes so much sense, i didnt recognize when i played it but now that you brought this up, i'm already remembering his voice!
I think the circles are a good thing as long as they are treated properly. Dalish do send potential mages out as a child..many parents do not have what it takes to raise a mage child. There are many mages that want the circle back.
28:40 Ah, as excited for Alan Wake 2 as I am I see! Dorian is such a well-written and voiced character. A fantastic first impression of Tevinter after waiting three games to get a peek behind the curtain at it.
I think the implication is that Grand Enchanter fipma met you, then majister Alexios traveled in time to just before the conclave and defended redcliff. The rest of the world followed the same timeline but Redcliff was changed, it also explains the rifts that function differently than others, manipulating time around them and all.
Basically, if you don't agree with Vivienne she does not like you. As the game goes on, you can get some approval from her with other choices. I find her easier to get along with later in the game than in the early game. Dorian is one of my favorite characters in the game for the lore alone, and his charm/good looks. Along with Solas. The companions in this game really have a lot of depth.
I'm glad you got to see this mission as well! I think Cole needs this added context (well, maybe not for players who've read the novels, but it's still nice). And honestly, I also think it's better written than the mage quest. Probably bears mentioning that the aftereffects of this choice are felt throughout the entire game. Maybe it's even worth replaying DAI for sometime in the distant future.
@@vaspeter2600 True - and this is the mission where Cole shines best. My first ever playthrough of DAI was with In Hushed Whispers and even when finishing Trespasser, I was apathetic to Cole. Went with COTJ for the second run and really enjoyed Cole in the quest, as well as this version of Dorian's entry (by arriving with hell on his heels a la Silver Surfer with his "Thanos is coming" in the comics).
I love how condescending Vivienne is lmao, my main is a dalish mage who agrees that circle mages cannot be totally free due to the fact that the dalish also have rules against magic. So all her sassiness is towards other people and it's amazing
Cole is one of my favorite characters period. He's completely unique and has a history in the novels. No, that was Fiona and she did indeed go to Val Royeaux to invite you. Envy Demons can pose as anyone if they learn enough, both you and Fiona are elven mages and it was trying that with you until Cole helped.
My first 2 playthrus, I always chose the mages. When I finally sided with the templars, I was so so happy. It's my favorite way to play DAI now. And I love Cole to pieces. I'm glad you got to check it out. Thanks for another fun ep, Mapo 👍👍
I so want to go and explore the Tevinter Imperium. So much lore and history. Perhaps even get a chance to visit the sunken city of the old Elves, Arlathan.
Varric is simply the best companion to lighten the mood. His comments are always a delight. Even playing as a rogue myself I brought him and Bianca along.
As someone who allied with mages only and have never seen the Templar outcome, i must admit, it was really damn cool. The fade part with demons??? Amazing
I don't really like the templars quest (in terms of execution it's much weaker than In Hushed Whispers), but I love Cole so much, glad we checked this one I believe what happened with Fiona is a weird time jump, she did met you in Orlais but then Alexius went back in time and conscripted the mages so that never happened. Why our character remembers that, is another question though
I was kinda surprised you chose not to do the ritual! But it was a good choice. You saved a life, if you do the ritual Abernache dies and you lose out on a wartable mission later on.
Hell yeah… been binging these for the last few days.. been loving it.. also got me back into dragon age haven’t played it since 2016, good stuff mate keep it going🤙🏻🤙🏻
i love that you went back and did the Templar option too. i adore Cole’s introduction and this mission with him as much as i love Dorian’s in the Mages quest. i almost hate having to choose a side, not because it’s a hard choice between the Mages and Templars, but simply because i love both characters and both of their introductions/missions so much. doing the Mages adds more depth to Dorian’s character and his ties to Alexius and Felix and you can feel close / connected to him right away, going through something like that together. doing the Templars gives you reason to trust Cole when you meet him, and you learn about his abilities right away. and he’s desperate to help you which is just adorable. i always choose the Mages because, well, the Templars are the Templars, but i genuinely wish there was still a way to meet Cole and get the context to his character without picking the Templars. meeting him later after choosing the Mages feels very random and out of place, and you have no clue who he is or if he can be trusted, and he could come off as very strange without the added context of his abilities. at least even if you pick the Templars, you still meet Dorian in Redcliffe before he shows back up 😅
For me the most sad part of going for the mages as I usually do, is that Ser Barris dies. That's such a waste 😥and of course, all the others who die in those terrible events at Therinfal.
Mapo going into a whole treatise of why he agrees with Dorian, just to get a disapproval. Classic 🤣 Edit: I've never seen the Templar route so this was super interesting to me. It reminds me a lot of what happened with the Darkness in Fable 3, when you were trying to escape the caves with Walter.
I believe Fiona was planning to go Val Royaux, but because Alexios used time magic to get to her before she took the trip, he future changed and she never went to Val Royaux
Alongside the dalish, both the avvar and rivain are doing things diffrent with their mages and as far as I know do not get possessed by demons regularly.
A little late to watching this playthrough and catching up, but wanted to share the idea I had always thought for the Mages. Thought it would be good if the circles were more like schools. When your magic was discovered, you'd go to this special school to learn how to control your magic and other things related to magic, but then when they "graduate" they can go out into the world.
Uhh did you forget about meeting Minaeve? She was literally sent packing by her clan, as a child no less, because they had too many mages. Viv was just pointing out that the Dalish's ways of culling their mage numbers and is not exactly perfect either.
I believe Dragon Age Inquisition actually changed a decent amount of the lore from the other games which is why a bunch of things feel weirdly different
It's was soft reset of the series. Origins was meant to be a one off but contained a bunch of lore, Inquisition takes that and tweaks it to be usable longterm. Or at least that was the intention.
@@Blueschist13Not really a reset IMO. Sure, there are some retcons here and there, but the way the lore in Dragon Age is established makes retcons to it possible to change lore and have it still make sense, so long as it doesn't completely contradict events of the previous games. And even then, they can still make it work when it contradicts previous events, at least sometimes. The only way I think Inquisition is really a reset of any kind is that it follows a new character, but DA2 did that, and both the events of this game, and some of what I've heard about Dread Wolf make it sound like that's gonna happen in the next game too. So I don't really think it's any more of a reset than any game in the series after Origins.
@@Maniaman213 The interesting thing is that because of how the lore is set up in DA, the retcons are not retcons in universe, line what you see in comic books. The way Sloth Demons were retconned into being Despair Demons is a good example, as the explanation for the change in lore is that they weren't properly understood before. There's more, most of which is spoilers for the main story and so I don't want to talk about it here in case Mapo sees it, but the retcons are usually handled like that. The lore is built in a way that no one knows for sure what the truth is in game for a lot of the lore, so it can be freely retconned for plot without breaking the lore, unless it was something that was seen on screen already.
Vivienne is one of those characters that i love to disagree with actually. Partially a bias to her voice acting bc its so incredible, but also because her stances are realistic to her upbringing, even the very condecending nature of her dialogue. I mean her perspective comes from a very privileged outlook- much of which lacks so much empathy for those under her. Her general take on the dangers of magic are all sound, but wanting things to be how they were is insane to me and you could say Anders started this war, but the complaints of abuse, the fear, the corruption, all of it existed before that happened (Starkhaven and Fereldans Circles for example). Kirkwall wasnt entirely an outlier. Wynne has a much more compassionate stance on believing in the necessity of the Circles because it is a chance for mages to garner a sense of comradery and community which *is* good, but I still think the Circles are too far gone to be reformed, it has to go further. Even if you disagree with mages being outside the Circle, a less-than-trustworthy religious institution should not be in such control of these systems and i say that on behalf of the mages AND the templars.
To be fair to Vivienne, she isn't outright saying things have to go back to how they were before. For instance, she's proven to be open to the idea of mages having more power, especially politically. She even approves of your character putting forth the idea of making a mage the Divine of the chantry. She doesn't expressly love the system as it was, she simply believes that it's a better option than giving mages unrestricted freedom. That's because free mages will give the bad actors among the mages more freedom to do terrible things, and regular people will use that as an excuse to fear/hate all mages. I think Vivienne is mostly a realist that can see things for what they are. She doesn't hate the idea of reforming the Templars and Mage circles into something different, she's just opposed to having them abolished completely because she believes that organization for the mages and a method to control them to mitigate any potential harm is necessary.
@MoostachedSaiyanPrince I find Vivienne's... approval of mages having more political power to be very hypocritical. Won't go into specifics regarding certain potential ending of the game, because spoilers, buy isn't that actually a step closer to a tevinter structure and creating uncomfortable precedents? I think Vivienne is only approving of mages having power in ways that benefit her and put her in power. I see her talking points as almost telling on herself. Of course mages will want and accept power, she wants it.
@@breannacausey6792 I agree to an extent. But the specific conversation I'm thinking of happens fairly early in the game, if I recall. Long before she actually can make use of any more power that can be given to mages, and it's discussed as a hypothetical. She asks the player what they specifically would do about the Templar/Mage problem. Again, I don't think Vivienne wants the Circles and Templars to continue exactly as is, I think she's just strictly against ALL mages having complete freedom. She's never expressed any interest in preventing any trustworthy mage from having/using power or having freedom. She knows that mages are incredibly powerful, and giving a dumb and irresponsible people the freedom to use incredible power will usually lead to that power being used for something dumb and irresponsible. I genuinely don't like Vivienne, but I agree with her mindset somewhat. While the system in place is flawed and needs rethinking, it's better than nothing because there does need to be SOME system in place to keep mages safe from the rest of Thedas and vice versa.
Vievienne is great! Well written. But anything Orlay and the games! Love how diverse the mindset of the companions are. Her quest was something! Change of perspective and that "Madame de Fer"
@@MoostachedSaiyanPrince Vivienne is part of a political system that epitomizes bad actors across the spectrum and her excuse is "it's the game" ...how many innocent poor people in alienages or servants or innocent villagers are harmed every day from these petty wars and court squabbles, do you think....? Her opinions and her approach are not really about much other than solidifying and furthering her power. She likely approves of a mage Divine if it's her being the one to take that spot. Sera ironically puts it the best. They "plunk" a noble but only to raise another and surprise surprise, they're probably corrupt too. To be charitable, she may not completely love the system as it was, but she doesn't have to think about the consequences of said system from atop the imperial palace she's looking down from... even if I gave her some grace in her opinions, she still has a very unpleasant and unsympathetic personality. Entertaining, but still bad.
and Varric is my least fave (who i often forget exists coz i neve rbring him anywhere in either game) so seeing Mapo say 'i missed you!' is hilarious to me.
BTW, if you really want that loot under Haven's chantry, check with Sera again. You will have an option to ask her about them. Then visit the area again, and the doors will be unlocked.
I know how much you want to see all the clues and codexs, You might want to go back and replay part of this. There is a locked door with important clues that you walked right past. It is just before you go up the stairs to be dragged into mind space by the Lord Seeker.
With regards to Fiona and time travel, I've always taken it that in the "original" timeline, Fiona met the Herald in Val Royeaux, and then Alexius went back in time and prevented that from happening (by taking control of the mages, therefore removing the need for Fiona to seek help elsewhere and making it so she never went to Val Royeaux). The weird part is that we get to experience the encounter at all. Time travel... *shudders* On Vivienne - Sera, as per usual, has her down right when she says "She's a bitch, but she knows." Vivienne's likely gotten to her position by being ruthless and utterly dedicated to her goals. To her, the cage might be golden, but she also sees it protects those inside, hence her opinion here that the Circles protect mages from mobs of frightened ordinary people. There is merit in this, but Mapo is quite right in noting she's not in any position to decide this for the average mage, who is granted few of her priviledges. One wonders if Vivienne would hold to her beliefs if she'd been the First Enchanter who had to deal with Meredith instead of Orsino.
The issue with that theory is that going back in time (and then changing the past) has never been shown to be possible in this universe. Most of time magic is speeding up or slowing down the rate of flow of time. Alexius was also able to cast a special spell in Redcliffe Castle, but that only goes forward in time from the "main" timeline, and was undone in a manner in which the main timeline continues at nearly the exact moment that the spell was cast. So it seems that undoing Fiona's meeting would be beyond the capabilities of what is explicitly shown. It also wouldn't explain why the player character still remembers meeting Fiona. On the other hand, envy demons and even memory wipes are relatively mundane magical capabilities.
You can't get sent to the past before the rift existed. You can be sent to any period of time during the rift's existence and Fiona wouldn't have to come back that far to talk to you at Orlais.
You mentioned how Vivienne lacks perspective of lower influence mages. Bc she is first enchanter and enchanter to the imperial court. But she WAS a regular mage. She was taken to the circle as a child as all the others. She was however ambitious and climbed her way to the top through calculated maneuvers. Also the fact the she was voted 1st enchanter in one of the more prestigious circles tells me she had the favor and trust of her fellow mages in the circle
I think those statue-like ncp's may be because of the mod you mentioned you put in for extra dialogue perhaps? As far as Fiona goes, I think it was her that came to you om Val Royeaux, but wasn't brave enough to admit that once she was under the power of the Venatori, which was why Felix warned you.
(No spoilers) This is so difficult. Having played this game a few times. Having a fuller understanding of Vivian, listing to Mapocolops say of her character that “we’ve got Vivian just being like ‘I just want to be your rich, noble, First Enchanter!’” And I realize that I probably felt the same thing the first time I played. I probably fell for her upper crust accent and cast her as a snob. Here’s the thing. Vivian is asking difficult questions that nobody else is asking. In Dragon Age lore and history, mages do struggle with demonic possession. Look what happened to the mages of Kirkwall!! The systems that were in place to provide structure for the mages before the mage-templar war began are no longer in existence so, having a large number of mages now working with the Inquisition, the difficult questions that Vivian is asking must be answered. And this isn’t a simple matter of ‘mages should be free’. Mages should and do have a right to have access to resources and education that would allow them better control over the abilities. Abilities that they did not request to possess in the first place. Those resources and education don’t exist at the time of D.A.3. in the Dragon Age world so Vivian’s questions are all the more pressing and important. And simply because she has the accent of a wealthy person doesn’t mean she or her contributions are less valuable. Please don't fall for the trap! Don’t assume that she is a bigot because of her accent when doing so would mean that she is not the one being biased toward others.
But Vivienne doesn't provide any better answers. When talking about what the new Divine should do, she just says "The most important thing, of course, is the restoration of the Circles and the Templar Order. The institutions that have protected Thedas for ages must be rebuilt and the malcontents utterly crushed.". This system clearly didn't work out, and she provides no good improvements, solutions, other than let's go back to something that failed so miserably, caused war, abused mages. Malcontents in this case weren't created without a reason. We have seen time and time again what has been happening - sometimes going as far as rape, or forceful Tranquilism. But hey, let's just go to what was back and crush anyone who disagrees. "Darling". Ugh.
I'm enjoying your view on Viviene, coz i'm complete opposite on this matter : ) but, what i found even most interesting - is your reaction oh her take on Dalish people you took it as mocking and such, but _your_ character did not present counter-argument to her. What Vivi didn't ask you is "So what do you propose? Do we do the same thing as you? Set a certain number of mages that allowed to exist in empire, and once we reach the number - we start exiling all the new mages to Anderfells?" Dalish people, who live in dozens, could not have a valid opinion about life of humans, who live in millions. The tide-knot-community mentality is simply too distant and alien from big civilizations
I think ppl often get confused by Vivienne bc of her Demeanor. When she was saying there aren’t enough templars with the new mage alliance and that more soldiers should be trained. I don’t think she’s saying to police the mages but rather to be equipped with some training to deal with situations if they arise with the risk of the vail being thin. But bc she comes at you strongly and with characters knowing her position, it seems harder to take in. Also I liked her point with the dalish, how they have their own safety net in place bc they too know the importance of balance. But also her “pompous” attitude also throws players off. To me I view it as a persona she has played in the orlesian court to get from the very bottom to the very top. And I can admire that regardless of how I feel about mage issue’s personally. . Also I don’t think she was making fun of the dalish but rather pointing out the flawed logic of “well dalish don’t have templars and we do fine” bc they have their own system of only 3 mages in a clan in smug way. But I think she doesn’t actually harbor animosity for the dalish and in fact seems interested in their practice. . I love seeing Vivienne be sassy and condescending to you haha. I never get to see that in my play through. She’s always been really sweet to my characters I guess
Vivienne's perspective would sell better to players if the DA series actually showed peasants vs apostates, peasants make up the vast majority of Thedas but we don't get their perspective on these things in any depth. Sera's fear of magic and abnormal things is likely the common consensus amongst the peasantry of Thedas, lacking any education and living simple lives, they would freak at the sight of magic, mages killed their messiah afterall. We get mages vs templars instead and the templars are easy to hate, making mages easy to support even though they are a danger.
It's realistic but worth pointing that common folk can be ignorant, preduiced and prone to over simplification on occasion - not all but herd mentality can be dangerous.
@@EmoBearRights and its distinction also provides ample context to any societal issue, the Mage Problem included. Yes, common folk can be easily embroiled by hysteria and prejudice, but also ignoring the common folk is how feudal governments get overthrown. Not to mention, in the DA universe, the Chantry banks its power on being the common folk's comfort and the one thing almost all common folk across Southern Thedas can unite under - which doesn't help the opposition at a time when religious organizations held so much sway since faith was almost seen as tangible (a la the Spanish Reconquista).
@@cainyourkids True but it doesn't mean you have to pander to the common folks worst preduices. You're not a good person if you do that - raise others up rather than sinking to the level of lowest common denominator. So many use the common folks preduices as an excuse when what you need to is try and educate them. Oh yes - Vivienne doesn't really care about the common folk. She approves of you rescuing people at Haven partly because these are people who are actually more like the middle class in being skilled experts or specialists - some of it is optics the Inquisition is seen to be guarding those who serve it at the top but some of it is something I actual do kinda respect about Vivienne which is she values knowledge and expertise in people and thinks people who have it are worth preserving. It is perhaps the one thing I agree with her about or and she is right about the dangers of magic but her solution is self serving, lacking in nuance and has no real understanding of the failures of the system that collapsed and I guess she doesn't understand that true knowledge is accepting and incorporating alternate points of view. You can't know what it is like to experience things from every perspective but you can listen to people who had struggles you didn't and knowledge you didn't have access to and refine your worldview accordingly.
Just a thought on the lack of perspective for Vivienne: The average, let's say, "lower" mage, is still in a more privileged position than the average lower class citizen in poverty. The mage doesn't wonder if they will be able to put dinner on the table tonight or fear being robbed of their only valuables and being driven into inescapable poverty. By default, a circle mage is treated better than the average alienage elf or beggar on the streets. This could just as easily be seen as a lack of perspective. While Vivienne can be accused of lacking the perspective of lower ranking mages compared to those in her position, she certainly doesn't lack the perspective of the average non-mage. As she said before too, "a war in which we are outnumbered 100 to 1." Mages are a significant minority, which is definitely underplayed dramatically in the games due in part to the manner of story driven narrative, but the average citizen is not familiar with magic in a way that makes them delight in it's presence. It's easy to say that it needs to change, but this is a centuries built societal view, and it will take a great deal of time to shift it. Suddenly giving freedom without restraint will certainly do more harm than good. Even the idea that mages had the opportunity to vote on the matter is an imbalance of perspective. The elves in the alienage don't get to hold a vote on whether they are free from stigma and racism. The dalish don't get to hold a vote on whether they are free from suspicion and xenophobia. The beggers can't vote to be free from being impoverished. And Vivienne is not saying to just put everything back and be good mages in your towers either. She's not opposed to change. She will agree that templars aren't the perfect solution. She agrees with the notion that mages should be able to join the chantry. What she opposes is the manner in which it has been done. A slim majority that tore the circle and the mages apart, a blatant disregard for the people of Thedas. It was ill-timed and, as she said, makes it appear that mages have no care of the safety of others. It was wreckless, and Fiona even admits that she is in a losing position when met in Redcliffe. It wasn't thought out nearly enough and was rash and had tremendous consequences. That's not taking the blame from the templars, but, to the average citizen, templars are equivalent to safety from the dangers of magic and therefore any act against them is act against the people. It may not be fair, but that is how it is being viewed by many. The chantry and templars are certainly at fault, but to the average person, they are only seeing a magical rebellion, abandonment by the templars, and the collapse of their faith. That's the lack of perspective now. And yet, even with the breach threatening the world, both the mages and templars scramble for their own ambitions to be achieved with no regard for the average citizen. That's the lacking of perspective.
Thank you! When he speaks of Vivienne saying she lacks perspective I get so confused because she is telling him the perspective the character is lacking. It isn't about Mage or Templar it's about people and most of world is made up of just regular people she is speaking to their fears warranted by Anders and unwarranted by the groomed prejudice. He seeing condescension but not her actual words while I don't agree with Vivienne whole heartedly she does bring up points. She is very open to different perspective with other options choices you can see where she is but people take hard stances and she give hard answers
and hard, radical change often backfires when done IRL history. I love Leliana, and I am always for Mage freedom, but I can never fully support her radicalism as Divine. Swinging too fast and far in the opposite direction of the status quo is how you breed instability and insurrection. Even IRL, the countries with the greatest strife and turmoil in this world are those whose governments were overthrown, shifted and replaced (and the effects it had on its people, socioeconomically) too quickly without giving time for the general population to ADJUST. Heck, even ancient Rome recognized how to instill Christianity into its polytheistic-rooted society and avoiding major upheaval and mass revolts: by doing it slowly.
Thanks for leaving this comment. Yours, and a handful of others who commented on Mapo's view of Vivienne convinced me that I shouldn't bother watching his LP. Shame, because it's always nice to have good DA LPs and Mapo does get recommended a lot in DA fandom spaces. I suppose the ones who recommend him are aligned to his views to begin with. Also agreed on everything you said about Vivienne. When I first met her, it was like a breath of fresh air. I loved her views, and my elf mage even agreed with her on almost everything. Which brings me to another thing I wonder about the fandom. Why do so many of these dalish mage players care so strongly about the mostly human circle mages? Because mine didn't. Yes of course she agreed that Circles should not be prisons and that every mage should be treated well, but that Circles or something similar anyway MUST exist. The human mages need a system, and it cannot be this free for all because it puts the Dalish mages at risk too. All mages being apostates means there's no distinction between the former circle mages and the Dalish mages that, as per Merrill in DA2, Templars generally left alone. Now since all mages are apostates, all mages will be at risk. My Dalish mage was all about securing her own clan and people above humans, even if they are mages. She is elf first, mage second. After all, Tevinters were mages, and they were the biggest oppressors to the elves. Anyway I've rambled a bit. Just wanted to thank you for your comment.
I have seen too many playthroughs with choosing mages. I f I ever finally get to play Inquisition, I will choose templars first time. There are further changes to the story btw, so certainly try to play the game again with actually choosing templars
Champions has one key advantage over Hushed Whispers: If you play your cards right you can later on...SPOILER: . . . . . . . . . ...send Abernache and Chief Goatchucker out together as the most effective diplomat team ever.
Vivienne makes valid points! She plays the game like a real Orlaisian, so reading between lines can be tiring! U can just let mages roam free... Anders is far a too fresh memory! I tend to compromise with her. Got along with all of my companions but Solas... lmfao i am waiting for these videos, and checking them everyday. hahaha, i was praying for a Qunari mage, that would have given a different perspective specially the all mage team...🥰
Even as an avid mage supporter for all three games, I prefer this level over In Hushed Whispers by MILES lol the Envy demon sequence was chilling And Sir Barris is amazing. First Templar I’ve ever respected.
Augh. Barris is best bae. Man recognizes the foundational issues with the Templar Order, determined to change things. It wasn't just about the Lyrium/Red Lyrium, he saw that - at it's core - the Templars had to be rebuilt from the ground up, and he went to do so. Was a voice of reason and a paragon on what it means to be a Templar, a guardian of people (mages and non-mages like). Barris >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fiona (who did nothing but infuriate me the whole time through)
@@cainyourkids Fiona is actually one of my fave characters! Though that is almost entirely because of her presence in other media. I don't get why they did NOTHING with Fiona in the game. Like she's such an important character in the world of Thedas, and has such a rich and complex background and reasoning for her choices. And she was left to just hang around and nod. She should have been an active part of every main quest.
@@GhilannugsI'm personally aggrieved of Bioware's style of handling characters' backgrounds through secondary media and then expecting the general populace to have consumed said media when playing the game. They did this to us in Mass Effect 3 with the introduction of Kai Leng, and again with Fiona in DA: I. It's absolutely pissant since everything Fiona did in DA: I (both seen in-game and implied) is the exact opposite of who she was in the novel(s): anti-Tevinter, democratic and defensive of the Mages to a fault. Even her reasoning for allying with Tevinter was shaky - Fereldan (a formidable nation on its own, with a history of beating Orlais' ass out of their lands) has already offered the mages sanctuary and protection under Alistair and/or Anora, and she still continues to gambit with the person who was representative of what she hates. I can understand being desperate, but in the overall perspective of my character (who only knows Fiona by reputation and the interactions in-game) - she's done shit to herself and the people she's supposed to be protecting. (I know Gaider offhandedly mentioned that a player can surmise that Fiona was under influence of blood magic, but I refuse to believe this and I also greatly dislike writers who do mini-retcons through comments online a la JK Rowling. If it's not stated directly or implied clearly in-game, it didn't happen.) Now, I don't hate Fiona - I genuinely enjoy characters in fiction who have fuck-ups despite their best intentions. Like, I can be pissed off what they've done, but I would very much appreciate their addition to the worldbuilding as necessary to form a very grounded approach. A game full of yes-men and echo chambers is a boring one, hence my appreciation for characters like Fiona, Vivienne, Sera, Solas, Oghren, etc. I may not like them but I like what they bring. Even if hearing Fiona say she would do it all again in Skyhold, and remembering the Tranquil, pissed me off so much I would rather punt her from the mountaintops of Skyhold...
ok Vivienne essay incoming: first of all I just want to preface this with the fact that of course it's fine to not like a character, it's fine not to agree with them, it's fine not to get their approval at every possible opportunity, just because I'm writing this doesn't mean that I think anyone who doesn't view the character the exact same way I do is doing something wrong or is stupid and doesn't get them like I do!.. or something. But maybe this perspective will help understand what someone who likes her sees in her? It's honestly a pretty common complaint about Vivienne, that she's "not willing to hear different perspective" and "thinks her way is the only way" (also usually heard from the Herald who just told her in three different ways "mages should be free" not once seriously considering Vivienne's perspective, but ok ok) paired with the assumption that she couldn't have possibly considered all those perspectives already, or doesn't know what average mage goes through because she has a fancy dress and a title. But she wasn't born with those, she isn't of noble birth or from rich family, she had to earn and fight for everything she had, she knows Circle and Orlesian politics inside and out, and can you imagine it was easy for a mage to get where she is? That all she has now is just some happy accident? Her perspective is hardly unique too, we meet plenty of mages (most of whom aren't grand enchanters) who think life in the Circles was better, or that some version of the Circles must exist. And if you think that Vivienne wants things *exactly the same* as they were you didn't understand her. Wanting Circles back =/= wanting everything exactly the same. It's interesting to see someone flipflop from "well if mages are allying with Tevinter I'd rather see Circles back" but then go all gung ho about mage freedom when talking with Viv. And then call her patronizing and condescending when she stands her ground. I just think you agree with her about more things than you realize. She wasn't making fun of Dalish, she just pointed out that they take precautious against magic too (remember Minaeve? the one who was exiled from her clan because they had too many mages?) so they're hardy the one to go all high and mighty about how they treat mages better. I wish we could grill her more about Tranquility, Right of Annulment and Templar abuses, but nothing she said so far indicated she was 100% fine with how things were. She is very pro-Circle but consider the situation as it is now. All mages are apostates, Chantry in shambles, mages and Templars going at it in the Hinterlands backyards. Restoring the Circles would bring some stability and at least give mages immediate asylum. It might be a step back but it is a solution. While Inquisition and the Herald are all "well I'm for mage freedom on paper but I'll see what options we'll have, bigger problems right now" Vivienne is one of the few people who are actively considering what to do and how to fix it. That's why she's asking all those loaded questions. Again, not writing all that with the idea of persuading anyone to agree with Vivienne about everything, I myself don't, but so many just go "rich condescending lady who had it easy wants everything back to how it was, she's obviously just power hungry and doesn't care about her fellow mages" as first impression, and just dismiss her as that. It's a pity.
In my opinion, as much as the decision to play separately the "two timelines" - mages or templars - can encompass a more "complete" playthrough, I understand that the simple act of satisfying curiosity can generate spoilers for the future in some aspects as you will get a primary perspective on the two factions and their issues. It may not be anything "serious" at first, but that eliminates much of the impact of some surprises along the plot.
Now, something I always wondered about: why tf it looks like the Templars in DAI can't do shite about magic?? In DAO they'd literally dispel the area all the time and that was a pain to deal with. Since DA2 they're incredbly dull and without purpose, game mechanics wise. Like Dorian would say... "like the Templars back home"
My way to deal with Vivienne is to smile to her face and say non-committal statements while trying to outmaneuver her politically from the shadows. The Inquisitor needs her influence and connections so how can we take control of them and cut her out of the game. She has some good points about the threat of mages, however, perhaps mages are such a threat from possession because they believe they are. I enjoyed listening to your opinions and comments during the dialogues with Vivie and Dorian. Gotta love how Dragon Age makes everything complicated and nuanced. I'm glad you're experiencing both paths.
I think people lack the perspective of Vivienne, not the other way around. She has the perspective of lower Mages she just sees it for what is happening on ground level with common people. Every day people are not fighting these lofty battles/wars they are making bread and trying to feed their families with the scraps they can muster up. Not templars, Not the Chantry just regular folks who already view Mages as a threat innately. Even in the dialogue that has been had with her, it's never about her, what she gains or will retain from the Circles. It is always about the lower day-to-day people who will murder and be murdered due to fear of the unknown she said it directly but it is taken as condescending or belittling your beliefs but your character has no set beliefs or perspective. You are Dalish you live on the outside in addition to you being elvish people hate you for your pointy ears and fear you because of your ability to wield magic. In addition, your character lives on the outskirts of society she has no perspective of the regular people just the Dalish, and even within the Dalish she is one of the three mages privileged to live within her group. Her point isn't everything should be the way they were because "I like it that way". That is what the player is taking from her words but she has never actually said that. She is open to hearing new perspectives however, your character isn't actually giving any new ones though it's just the opposing view of her own. She fears for her people, she is afraid of the bloodshed that can happen, and is doing what she feels is suitable/right to reduce that.
Hmm, its a solid quest but isn't as good for the characters of Cole and Dorian imo. I think that its better running into Dorian at Redcliff than Cole at Therinfall. Dorian's mage path intorduction makes him a pretty trustworthy companion once your done and back at Haven. Cole just showing up out of the blue is fine, but Dorian just showing up means that it comes off too sus ( A tevninter mage out of the blue!) and then without the Redcliff quest its a bit of a jarring introduction to the character and you lose the Felix and Alexius mentor links.
@@Blueschist13 you still run into dorian as long as you went to redcliff to talk to the mages and it makes way more sense for dorian to come warn you about (Redacted) than Cole whom you would have never met before showing up.
@@Blueschist13 Just as the OP mentioned, you can still meet Dorian at Redcliffe, and then do COTJ afterwards instead of IHW. I find Cole shines best in this quest than going with the mages. I also personally found IHW very Dorian-centric of a quest - yes it's about the future, but all major links in that quest was for Dorian (being Alexius' student and Felix's friend). I personally felt no connection to the quest whereas COTJ had me involved, especially in seeing how an organization like the Inquisition (something meant for good) can easily fall into corruption and the consequences it leaves in its place (Envy demon masquerading as you). I also prefer Ser Barris over Fiona, who did nothing but infuriate me despite myself being 9 times out of 10 pro-mage. I hadn't expected to care for Barris, but when his post-COTJ quests involved him recognizing the root problems of the Order, rebuilding it from the ground up and shepherding a better future for both Templars and Mages, I felt this would lead to a better system afterwards. Fiona's handwashing off of her fuck-ups, as well as the massacre of the Tranquil in her 'care', and her refusal to recognize her own mistakes just pissed me off.
I hope he takes Iron Bull and Dorian on missions together. 😂 I love that he got three me to Cole this way. 💕 He's such a good boy. I bring him along with Dorian to make him feel guilty. 😂
@@annabergman1166 Honestly I don't really think it changes anything since they flirt out in the field anyways. 🤷 Unless he commits, then they're free to blossom their own romance if they want to.
Mapo, I beg you, please stop using battle-mode to run around faster, this is why your staff gets stuck in your character's hands in so many cutscenes 💀
Yeah the always running mod is seriously messing up the game now. Between cut scene staff holding and banter not triggering, it's just not worth it. Plus there are better ways to move faster without using the mod anyway, like fade step.
@@AquaMaryn.Horses don't really make you move that much faster. I remember hearing/reading a quote from the developers talking about how they added some motion blur to give the illusion that you were moving much faster than you were. They will also prevent banter too.
For those saying they hate Viviene you all just don’t know how to speak to her you need to speak to her as if your playing “The Game” Don’t agree or disagree with her alway take to middle ground for example when she says we need more people to watch the mages because of the demonic risks, she’s not wrong even solas agrees all mages are more at risk because of the breach I always pick “keep them hidden” mages get their so called “freedom” and those who fear or are worried about the mages will get peace of mind “The Game” is all about having the upper hand and outplaying someone and Viviene has mastered It because of this Viviene likes to stick to her guns or should I say staffs. Deep down I believe Viviene wants or even needs to believe that we are the Herald of Andraste so to her the The Herald who is meant to be superior then everyone else disagreeing with her obviously good ideas is total madness it makes her doubt you, BUT she also doesn’t want you to blindly agree with her because that is something someone beneath her would do So when you take the middle ground you kinda take her ideas and opinions and make them less bad She’ll approve because that’s something a leader would do something someone superior then her would do… But that’s just my opinion on Viviene I love her as a character and her banter is always funny ever since my first play through I never understood the hate for her her ideas and opinions aren’t wrong just a little too extreme the only thing that i don’t like about her is how hell bent she is about restoring the circles but other than that she’s fine
Vivienne is a complex character and many people hate her guts. She does make good points, but I tend to disagree with her on almost everything. Then I again I always fully supported Anders, so I am all for the mages.
I really think exploring alternate outcomes should be left until after you've finished the game. You might end up giving yourself extra context you're not meant to have. Knowing that both sides have been influenced could very well spoil a major reveal or plot point later in the game (I don't know whether or not it does, so no need to berate me for spoilers).
I've always preferred the Templars mission to the Mages. It gives you a better secondary antagonist, a more human like introduction to Dorian and end to Roderick. For Dorian i more mean like, a funnier interaction. If you talked to him at Redcliffe and went to Therinfall, he knows you! His wittiness is great there. I just MUCH prefer the interactions with Dorian and Roderick over anything else. Plus Calpernia is an awesome second antagonist!
Another 2 days to see the most boring part of this quest is killing me :C But I really like that you did it right after the prev one. You know, sets the perspective for later, BUT makes you wonder a lot about how this shit resolves if you choose just one side. I mean..I guess Dorian helps to resolve Alexius's mess, but what about templars?
I think Vivian really clings to the circles and how things were, because back then she had more power than ever and she wants to restore them for this exact reason to gain back her power if not gain more 😒 I don’t think it has anything to do with the actual mages and their problems
I think Vivienne isn't going to leave the Inquisition no matter how much she dislikes you or if you ask her to leave because she doesn't have a safe place to go. Despite her ego at being important among the nobility, she is still an apostate at the moment and the court can only protect her for so long. She is manipulative but savvy enough to understand that she needs to get in good with the people who have power over her fate, as much as she pretends she is in control. Her hypocrisy regarding the mages who don't have her influence is born of fear and understanding that if the empress decided to rescind her position at the court, Vivienne would be in a lot of trouble, so she attaches herself to the Inquisition and tries making herself indispensable in order to protect herself. She could very well be honest about closing the Breach but I do believe her first goal is to maintain her own freedom, even if she has to throw other mages under the bus to do so.
The man she froze was a twice disgraced nephew or something who was left behind by his betters when going to the Grand Tourney because his own family knew him for being incompetent. Don't think anyone cared she froze him. Twenty or so templars going after her though? She could take out maybe ten of them but all it takes is one that she misses to bring her down. I'm also purposefully not talking about something else that gets reveled later on in the imperial court because spoilers but that makes it pretty clear that her decision to leave the court and go to the Inquisition was to keep herself safe and relevant to the right people.
Anyone else waiting patiently for this current streak of large story driven RPGs to finish? Unless Divinity: Original Sin or its sequel are next (or even Baldur gate 3), I could bite that.
Because mages actually go out of their way to contact you while templars are "you will not adress me". I chose both on different playthroughs but trying to convince someone who's not willing to even talk to you is exhausting and unnecessary, because mages are there, already waiting for your reply.
@@duralireha what i meant is why everyone thinks mage should be free? they are abominations without control, same as templars controlled from chantry with lyrium supply
@@dragerdet which is exactly what divine tried to do. and there should be restriction and regulations for both parties instead of simply free all mages or keeping let templars being pricks. But i assume video games logic should be simpler than my paranoid thinking
![Alternate Choice Continues! Defeating Envy - Dragon Age Inquisition | Blind Playthrough [Part 14]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4mAvhQHW_9Y/mqdefault.jpg)
![Alternate Choice Continues! Defeating Envy - Dragon Age Inquisition | Blind Playthrough [Part 14]](/img/tr.png)
1:32:37 - Actually you have seen Cole before, he's right there in the crowd. --> 54:12
"You just didn't notice him. No one ever does." ; )
Wow, never noticed that before.
@@Maniaman213no one ever does 🤠
Ten years on and I never noticed that.😲
The internet is yours this day, griefate. Use it in good health!! :)
@@TarotMage Haha, thank you.🌻
Lord Seeker wasn't possessed the first time you met him, it was just Envy. Envy can take other people's forms and mimic them, but it doesn't have to possess a person while it's doing so.
Cassandra previously pointed out that Seekers are fundamentally immune to possession, so it's impossible for Lucius to be possessed. Plus a powerful demon doesn't need a host as long as the breach exists. It simply stole his face.
While I prefer In Hushed Whispers, I'm still floored by how good both of these main quests are.
Mapo engaging in some time magic of his own to observe this alternate choice.
He affected the past and intervened before she sent the letter, but time travel is only possible during the rifts existence. That's why he couldn't stop the inquisitor from intervening in the sacrifice or save his son from the dark spawn ambush.
Yeah, Fade is partially seeping into reality basically, and as Solas has told us, time is meaningless in the Fade, so this kinda makes time travel possible within a limited range
Just found out Dorian's VA (Ramon Tikaram) also voices Godrick the Grafted from Elden ring. What a range! always loved Dorian's voice sm. Cheers mapo.
A recent role of his is Ramattra in Overwatch. He has great lines and delivery there
he did quite a few recordings in Subnautica - these sounded very Dorian-esque. Then he had a whole recording of a priest screaming and praying before death - he's so good!!
Oh wow really?! I love finding actors in their range of roles - from games to BBC dramas.
Stephane Cornicard plays a role in a later area in this game, and when he opened his mouth to speak, I was "Greirat!!!" because Stephane plays Greirat from Dark Souls 3 :-)
@@stitchedfreedom OHH that makes so much sense, i didnt recognize when i played it but now that you brought this up, i'm already remembering his voice!
@@ladyfox6705 That's really neat! Greirat is such a charming character too. Gotta love seeing actors dabble in voicing rpgs. :]
I think the circles are a good thing as long as they are treated properly. Dalish do send potential mages out as a child..many parents do not have what it takes to raise a mage child. There are many mages that want the circle back.
28:40 Ah, as excited for Alan Wake 2 as I am I see!
Dorian is such a well-written and voiced character. A fantastic first impression of Tevinter after waiting three games to get a peek behind the curtain at it.
I think the implication is that Grand Enchanter fipma met you, then majister Alexios traveled in time to just before the conclave and defended redcliff. The rest of the world followed the same timeline but Redcliff was changed, it also explains the rifts that function differently than others, manipulating time around them and all.
'Dorian doesn't feel like a match' - put a pin in that is all I'll say.
Dorian is my favorite companion of dragon age inquisition. He's probably top 3 all 3 games for me.
Basically, if you don't agree with Vivienne she does not like you. As the game goes on, you can get some approval from her with other choices. I find her easier to get along with later in the game than in the early game.
Dorian is one of my favorite characters in the game for the lore alone, and his charm/good looks. Along with Solas. The companions in this game really have a lot of depth.
Dorian is the best flirt, even if you aren't his type. Love him so much.
I'm glad you got to see this mission as well! I think Cole needs this added context (well, maybe not for players who've read the novels, but it's still nice). And honestly, I also think it's better written than the mage quest.
Probably bears mentioning that the aftereffects of this choice are felt throughout the entire game. Maybe it's even worth replaying DAI for sometime in the distant future.
Cole here was a spoiler lmfao, completely forgot about his introduction here.
@@eestiny9734 Eh, he'll see him soon again anyways. And I really do suspect he wouldn't have been able to make heads nor tails of Cole otherwise.
@@vaspeter2600 True - and this is the mission where Cole shines best. My first ever playthrough of DAI was with In Hushed Whispers and even when finishing Trespasser, I was apathetic to Cole. Went with COTJ for the second run and really enjoyed Cole in the quest, as well as this version of Dorian's entry (by arriving with hell on his heels a la Silver Surfer with his "Thanos is coming" in the comics).
I love how condescending Vivienne is lmao, my main is a dalish mage who agrees that circle mages cannot be totally free due to the fact that the dalish also have rules against magic. So all her sassiness is towards other people and it's amazing
I love Vivienne attitude. It’s so entertaining. Adds a unique energy haha
Cole is one of my favorite characters period. He's completely unique and has a history in the novels.
No, that was Fiona and she did indeed go to Val Royeaux to invite you. Envy Demons can pose as anyone if they learn enough, both you and Fiona are elven mages and it was trying that with you until Cole helped.
My first 2 playthrus, I always chose the mages. When I finally sided with the templars, I was so so happy. It's my favorite way to play DAI now. And I love Cole to pieces. I'm glad you got to check it out. Thanks for another fun ep, Mapo 👍👍
cole is familiar is because if you go back to the beginning of the mission, he's there in the background watching
Personally a like Champions of the Just as a quest more than In Hushed Whispers. Somethings said here nicely plays into some DLC.
I so want to go and explore the Tevinter Imperium. So much lore and history. Perhaps even get a chance to visit the sunken city of the old Elves, Arlathan.
I think there's going to be at least some stuff there in the next game.
DA4 is confirmed to be in Tevinter - If predictions are right, it will be Tevinter, Antiva, Anderfels and maaaaybe Seheron
Varric is simply the best companion to lighten the mood. His comments are always a delight. Even playing as a rogue myself I brought him and Bianca along.
As someone who allied with mages only and have never seen the Templar outcome, i must admit, it was really damn cool. The fade part with demons??? Amazing
I don't really like the templars quest (in terms of execution it's much weaker than In Hushed Whispers), but I love Cole so much, glad we checked this one
I believe what happened with Fiona is a weird time jump, she did met you in Orlais but then Alexius went back in time and conscripted the mages so that never happened. Why our character remembers that, is another question though
I think its deliberately ambiguous. Personally, I think it was just an impersonator there, since time magic is very limited in this universe.
I love Champions of the Just so much! Glad you decided to see the alternate outcome. Such a cool quest.
I was kinda surprised you chose not to do the ritual! But it was a good choice. You saved a life, if you do the ritual Abernache dies and you lose out on a wartable mission later on.
He's not going to have the wartable mission later, it's only if you side with Templars, this is not his main save.
It's been some years since I played Champions of the Just and... damn. This quest is so well written. It's nice to remember. Thanks Mapo! 🥰
Hell yeah… been binging these for the last few days.. been loving it.. also got me back into dragon age haven’t played it since 2016, good stuff mate keep it going🤙🏻🤙🏻
i love that you went back and did the Templar option too. i adore Cole’s introduction and this mission with him as much as i love Dorian’s in the Mages quest. i almost hate having to choose a side, not because it’s a hard choice between the Mages and Templars, but simply because i love both characters and both of their introductions/missions so much. doing the Mages adds more depth to Dorian’s character and his ties to Alexius and Felix and you can feel close / connected to him right away, going through something like that together. doing the Templars gives you reason to trust Cole when you meet him, and you learn about his abilities right away. and he’s desperate to help you which is just adorable. i always choose the Mages because, well, the Templars are the Templars, but i genuinely wish there was still a way to meet Cole and get the context to his character without picking the Templars. meeting him later after choosing the Mages feels very random and out of place, and you have no clue who he is or if he can be trusted, and he could come off as very strange without the added context of his abilities. at least even if you pick the Templars, you still meet Dorian in Redcliffe before he shows back up 😅
For me the most sad part of going for the mages as I usually do, is that Ser Barris dies. That's such a waste 😥and of course, all the others who die in those terrible events at Therinfal.
Mapo going into a whole treatise of why he agrees with Dorian, just to get a disapproval. Classic 🤣 Edit: I've never seen the Templar route so this was super interesting to me. It reminds me a lot of what happened with the Darkness in Fable 3, when you were trying to escape the caves with Walter.
28:40 ALAN WAKE 2 jump scare alert
Yeah just came across that, wtf
I believe Fiona was planning to go Val Royaux, but because Alexios used time magic to get to her before she took the trip, he future changed and she never went to Val Royaux
Alongside the dalish, both the avvar and rivain are doing things diffrent with their mages and as far as I know do not get possessed by demons regularly.
....I kept watching. This episode was complex and wonderful. Thank you.
It’s interesting that my mage human and Vivienne absolutely got on perfectly while I’ve seen a lot of people hating her.
Lol Mapo's gay radar
❤ COLE ❤ I love this boy! Favourite DA character
Inquisition truly shines in seconds playthroughs.
I LOVE your reactions to the companions
Like literally my thoughts exactly!!
Cole is always cool👻
A little late to watching this playthrough and catching up, but wanted to share the idea I had always thought for the Mages. Thought it would be good if the circles were more like schools. When your magic was discovered, you'd go to this special school to learn how to control your magic and other things related to magic, but then when they "graduate" they can go out into the world.
Uhh did you forget about meeting Minaeve? She was literally sent packing by her clan, as a child no less, because they had too many mages. Viv was just pointing out that the Dalish's ways of culling their mage numbers and is not exactly perfect either.
I believe Dragon Age Inquisition actually changed a decent amount of the lore from the other games which is why a bunch of things feel weirdly different
It's was soft reset of the series. Origins was meant to be a one off but contained a bunch of lore, Inquisition takes that and tweaks it to be usable longterm. Or at least that was the intention.
@@Blueschist13 not sure if it could be a reset, since the old lore still remains, they just add more detail/perspective to it
@@Blueschist13Not really a reset IMO. Sure, there are some retcons here and there, but the way the lore in Dragon Age is established makes retcons to it possible to change lore and have it still make sense, so long as it doesn't completely contradict events of the previous games. And even then, they can still make it work when it contradicts previous events, at least sometimes. The only way I think Inquisition is really a reset of any kind is that it follows a new character, but DA2 did that, and both the events of this game, and some of what I've heard about Dread Wolf make it sound like that's gonna happen in the next game too. So I don't really think it's any more of a reset than any game in the series after Origins.
Any major examples? As far ive been able to tell there haven't been any been noticeable retcons.
@@Maniaman213 The interesting thing is that because of how the lore is set up in DA, the retcons are not retcons in universe, line what you see in comic books. The way Sloth Demons were retconned into being Despair Demons is a good example, as the explanation for the change in lore is that they weren't properly understood before. There's more, most of which is spoilers for the main story and so I don't want to talk about it here in case Mapo sees it, but the retcons are usually handled like that. The lore is built in a way that no one knows for sure what the truth is in game for a lot of the lore, so it can be freely retconned for plot without breaking the lore, unless it was something that was seen on screen already.
The templar flags in black and white on a red background. Where have seen this color combination on flags before, hmm.. ;)
The Orlesian noble from Champions of the Just and Movran the Under become a major political weapon for the Inquisitor.
Cole is such a cool character.
I absolutely LOVE Ur attitude toward Dorian. And Tevinter by extension.
Vivienne is one of those characters that i love to disagree with actually. Partially a bias to her voice acting bc its so incredible, but also because her stances are realistic to her upbringing, even the very condecending nature of her dialogue. I mean her perspective comes from a very privileged outlook- much of which lacks so much empathy for those under her. Her general take on the dangers of magic are all sound, but wanting things to be how they were is insane to me and you could say Anders started this war, but the complaints of abuse, the fear, the corruption, all of it existed before that happened (Starkhaven and Fereldans Circles for example). Kirkwall wasnt entirely an outlier. Wynne has a much more compassionate stance on believing in the necessity of the Circles because it is a chance for mages to garner a sense of comradery and community which *is* good, but I still think the Circles are too far gone to be reformed, it has to go further.
Even if you disagree with mages being outside the Circle, a less-than-trustworthy religious institution should not be in such control of these systems and i say that on behalf of the mages AND the templars.
To be fair to Vivienne, she isn't outright saying things have to go back to how they were before. For instance, she's proven to be open to the idea of mages having more power, especially politically. She even approves of your character putting forth the idea of making a mage the Divine of the chantry. She doesn't expressly love the system as it was, she simply believes that it's a better option than giving mages unrestricted freedom. That's because free mages will give the bad actors among the mages more freedom to do terrible things, and regular people will use that as an excuse to fear/hate all mages. I think Vivienne is mostly a realist that can see things for what they are. She doesn't hate the idea of reforming the Templars and Mage circles into something different, she's just opposed to having them abolished completely because she believes that organization for the mages and a method to control them to mitigate any potential harm is necessary.
@MoostachedSaiyanPrince I find Vivienne's... approval of mages having more political power to be very hypocritical. Won't go into specifics regarding certain potential ending of the game, because spoilers, buy isn't that actually a step closer to a tevinter structure and creating uncomfortable precedents? I think Vivienne is only approving of mages having power in ways that benefit her and put her in power. I see her talking points as almost telling on herself. Of course mages will want and accept power, she wants it.
@@breannacausey6792 I agree to an extent. But the specific conversation I'm thinking of happens fairly early in the game, if I recall. Long before she actually can make use of any more power that can be given to mages, and it's discussed as a hypothetical. She asks the player what they specifically would do about the Templar/Mage problem. Again, I don't think Vivienne wants the Circles and Templars to continue exactly as is, I think she's just strictly against ALL mages having complete freedom. She's never expressed any interest in preventing any trustworthy mage from having/using power or having freedom. She knows that mages are incredibly powerful, and giving a dumb and irresponsible people the freedom to use incredible power will usually lead to that power being used for something dumb and irresponsible. I genuinely don't like Vivienne, but I agree with her mindset somewhat. While the system in place is flawed and needs rethinking, it's better than nothing because there does need to be SOME system in place to keep mages safe from the rest of Thedas and vice versa.
Vievienne is great! Well written. But anything Orlay and the games! Love how diverse the mindset of the companions are. Her quest was something! Change of perspective and that "Madame de Fer"
@@MoostachedSaiyanPrince Vivienne is part of a political system that epitomizes bad actors across the spectrum and her excuse is "it's the game" ...how many innocent poor people in alienages or servants or innocent villagers are harmed every day from these petty wars and court squabbles, do you think....? Her opinions and her approach are not really about much other than solidifying and furthering her power. She likely approves of a mage Divine if it's her being the one to take that spot. Sera ironically puts it the best. They "plunk" a noble but only to raise another and surprise surprise, they're probably corrupt too. To be charitable, she may not completely love the system as it was, but she doesn't have to think about the consequences of said system from atop the imperial palace she's looking down from... even if I gave her some grace in her opinions, she still has a very unpleasant and unsympathetic personality. Entertaining, but still bad.
TThe Elder One didn't control all the Tevinter mages only that cult.
Vivienne is my fave companion in all 3 games
and Varric is my least fave (who i often forget exists coz i neve rbring him anywhere in either game) so seeing Mapo say 'i missed you!' is hilarious to me.
BTW, if you really want that loot under Haven's chantry, check with Sera again. You will have an option to ask her about them. Then visit the area again, and the doors will be unlocked.
I know how much you want to see all the clues and codexs, You might want to go back and replay part of this. There is a locked door with important clues that you walked right past. It is just before you go up the stairs to be dragged into mind space by the Lord Seeker.
1:03:32 After the Shepard Shuffle, now we have the Teagan Tango.
With regards to Fiona and time travel, I've always taken it that in the "original" timeline, Fiona met the Herald in Val Royeaux, and then Alexius went back in time and prevented that from happening (by taking control of the mages, therefore removing the need for Fiona to seek help elsewhere and making it so she never went to Val Royeaux). The weird part is that we get to experience the encounter at all. Time travel... *shudders*
On Vivienne - Sera, as per usual, has her down right when she says "She's a bitch, but she knows." Vivienne's likely gotten to her position by being ruthless and utterly dedicated to her goals. To her, the cage might be golden, but she also sees it protects those inside, hence her opinion here that the Circles protect mages from mobs of frightened ordinary people. There is merit in this, but Mapo is quite right in noting she's not in any position to decide this for the average mage, who is granted few of her priviledges. One wonders if Vivienne would hold to her beliefs if she'd been the First Enchanter who had to deal with Meredith instead of Orsino.
The issue with that theory is that going back in time (and then changing the past) has never been shown to be possible in this universe. Most of time magic is speeding up or slowing down the rate of flow of time. Alexius was also able to cast a special spell in Redcliffe Castle, but that only goes forward in time from the "main" timeline, and was undone in a manner in which the main timeline continues at nearly the exact moment that the spell was cast. So it seems that undoing Fiona's meeting would be beyond the capabilities of what is explicitly shown. It also wouldn't explain why the player character still remembers meeting Fiona.
On the other hand, envy demons and even memory wipes are relatively mundane magical capabilities.
You can't get sent to the past before the rift existed. You can be sent to any period of time during the rift's existence and Fiona wouldn't have to come back that far to talk to you at Orlais.
You mentioned how Vivienne lacks perspective of lower influence mages. Bc she is first enchanter and enchanter to the imperial court. But she WAS a regular mage. She was taken to the circle as a child as all the others. She was however ambitious and climbed her way to the top through calculated maneuvers. Also the fact the she was voted 1st enchanter in one of the more prestigious circles tells me she had the favor and trust of her fellow mages in the circle
the templar quest is so cool, i love it always my choice even though i play mages that support mages
Mapo I suggest doing In your Heart shall burn with both the templars and mages, just to see the difference.
I think those statue-like ncp's may be because of the mod you mentioned you put in for extra dialogue perhaps? As far as Fiona goes, I think it was her that came to you om Val Royeaux, but wasn't brave enough to admit that once she was under the power of the Venatori, which was why Felix warned you.
(No spoilers) This is so difficult. Having played this game a few times. Having a fuller understanding of Vivian, listing to Mapocolops say of her character that “we’ve got Vivian just being like ‘I just want to be your rich, noble, First Enchanter!’” And I realize that I probably felt the same thing the first time I played. I probably fell for her upper crust accent and cast her as a snob.
Here’s the thing. Vivian is asking difficult questions that nobody else is asking.
In Dragon Age lore and history, mages do struggle with demonic possession. Look what happened to the mages of Kirkwall!! The systems that were in place to provide structure for the mages before the mage-templar war began are no longer in existence so, having a large number of mages now working with the Inquisition, the difficult questions that Vivian is asking must be answered. And this isn’t a simple matter of ‘mages should be free’. Mages should and do have a right to have access to resources and education that would allow them better control over the abilities. Abilities that they did not request to possess in the first place. Those resources and education don’t exist at the time of D.A.3. in the Dragon Age world so Vivian’s questions are all the more pressing and important.
And simply because she has the accent of a wealthy person doesn’t mean she or her contributions are less valuable.
Please don't fall for the trap! Don’t assume that she is a bigot because of her accent when doing so would mean that she is not the one being biased toward others.
But Vivienne doesn't provide any better answers. When talking about what the new Divine should do, she just says "The most important thing, of course, is the restoration of the Circles and the Templar Order. The institutions that have protected Thedas for ages must be rebuilt and the malcontents utterly crushed.". This system clearly didn't work out, and she provides no good improvements, solutions, other than let's go back to something that failed so miserably, caused war, abused mages. Malcontents in this case weren't created without a reason. We have seen time and time again what has been happening - sometimes going as far as rape, or forceful Tranquilism. But hey, let's just go to what was back and crush anyone who disagrees. "Darling". Ugh.
I'm enjoying your view on Viviene, coz i'm complete opposite on this matter : )
but, what i found even most interesting - is your reaction oh her take on Dalish people
you took it as mocking and such, but _your_ character did not present counter-argument to her. What Vivi didn't ask you is "So what do you propose? Do we do the same thing as you? Set a certain number of mages that allowed to exist in empire, and once we reach the number - we start exiling all the new mages to Anderfells?"
Dalish people, who live in dozens, could not have a valid opinion about life of humans, who live in millions. The tide-knot-community mentality is simply too distant and alien from big civilizations
I think ppl often get confused by Vivienne bc of her Demeanor. When she was saying there aren’t enough templars with the new mage alliance and that more soldiers should be trained. I don’t think she’s saying to police the mages but rather to be equipped with some training to deal with situations if they arise with the risk of the vail being thin. But bc she comes at you strongly and with characters knowing her position, it seems harder to take in. Also I liked her point with the dalish, how they have their own safety net in place bc they too know the importance of balance. But also her “pompous” attitude also throws players off. To me I view it as a persona she has played in the orlesian court to get from the very bottom to the very top. And I can admire that regardless of how I feel about mage issue’s personally.
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Also I don’t think she was making fun of the dalish but rather pointing out the flawed logic of “well dalish don’t have templars and we do fine” bc they have their own system of only 3 mages in a clan in smug way. But I think she doesn’t actually harbor animosity for the dalish and in fact seems interested in their practice.
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I love seeing Vivienne be sassy and condescending to you haha. I never get to see that in my play through. She’s always been really sweet to my characters I guess
Vivienne's perspective would sell better to players if the DA series actually showed peasants vs apostates, peasants make up the vast majority of Thedas but we don't get their perspective on these things in any depth. Sera's fear of magic and abnormal things is likely the common consensus amongst the peasantry of Thedas, lacking any education and living simple lives, they would freak at the sight of magic, mages killed their messiah afterall.
We get mages vs templars instead and the templars are easy to hate, making mages easy to support even though they are a danger.
It's realistic but worth pointing that common folk can be ignorant, preduiced and prone to over simplification on occasion - not all but herd mentality can be dangerous.
@@EmoBearRights and its distinction also provides ample context to any societal issue, the Mage Problem included. Yes, common folk can be easily embroiled by hysteria and prejudice, but also ignoring the common folk is how feudal governments get overthrown. Not to mention, in the DA universe, the Chantry banks its power on being the common folk's comfort and the one thing almost all common folk across Southern Thedas can unite under - which doesn't help the opposition at a time when religious organizations held so much sway since faith was almost seen as tangible (a la the Spanish Reconquista).
@@cainyourkids True but it doesn't mean you have to pander to the common folks worst preduices. You're not a good person if you do that - raise others up rather than sinking to the level of lowest common denominator. So many use the common folks preduices as an excuse when what you need to is try and educate them. Oh yes - Vivienne doesn't really care about the common folk. She approves of you rescuing people at Haven partly because these are people who are actually more like the middle class in being skilled experts or specialists - some of it is optics the Inquisition is seen to be guarding those who serve it at the top but some of it is something I actual do kinda respect about Vivienne which is she values knowledge and expertise in people and thinks people who have it are worth preserving. It is perhaps the one thing I agree with her about or and she is right about the dangers of magic but her solution is self serving, lacking in nuance and has no real understanding of the failures of the system that collapsed and I guess she doesn't understand that true knowledge is accepting and incorporating alternate points of view. You can't know what it is like to experience things from every perspective but you can listen to people who had struggles you didn't and knowledge you didn't have access to and refine your worldview accordingly.
Coooooole!!!! 🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰
Just a thought on the lack of perspective for Vivienne: The average, let's say, "lower" mage, is still in a more privileged position than the average lower class citizen in poverty. The mage doesn't wonder if they will be able to put dinner on the table tonight or fear being robbed of their only valuables and being driven into inescapable poverty. By default, a circle mage is treated better than the average alienage elf or beggar on the streets. This could just as easily be seen as a lack of perspective. While Vivienne can be accused of lacking the perspective of lower ranking mages compared to those in her position, she certainly doesn't lack the perspective of the average non-mage. As she said before too, "a war in which we are outnumbered 100 to 1." Mages are a significant minority, which is definitely underplayed dramatically in the games due in part to the manner of story driven narrative, but the average citizen is not familiar with magic in a way that makes them delight in it's presence. It's easy to say that it needs to change, but this is a centuries built societal view, and it will take a great deal of time to shift it. Suddenly giving freedom without restraint will certainly do more harm than good. Even the idea that mages had the opportunity to vote on the matter is an imbalance of perspective. The elves in the alienage don't get to hold a vote on whether they are free from stigma and racism. The dalish don't get to hold a vote on whether they are free from suspicion and xenophobia. The beggers can't vote to be free from being impoverished. And Vivienne is not saying to just put everything back and be good mages in your towers either. She's not opposed to change. She will agree that templars aren't the perfect solution. She agrees with the notion that mages should be able to join the chantry. What she opposes is the manner in which it has been done. A slim majority that tore the circle and the mages apart, a blatant disregard for the people of Thedas. It was ill-timed and, as she said, makes it appear that mages have no care of the safety of others. It was wreckless, and Fiona even admits that she is in a losing position when met in Redcliffe. It wasn't thought out nearly enough and was rash and had tremendous consequences. That's not taking the blame from the templars, but, to the average citizen, templars are equivalent to safety from the dangers of magic and therefore any act against them is act against the people. It may not be fair, but that is how it is being viewed by many. The chantry and templars are certainly at fault, but to the average person, they are only seeing a magical rebellion, abandonment by the templars, and the collapse of their faith. That's the lack of perspective now. And yet, even with the breach threatening the world, both the mages and templars scramble for their own ambitions to be achieved with no regard for the average citizen. That's the lacking of perspective.
Thank you! When he speaks of Vivienne saying she lacks perspective I get so confused because she is telling him the perspective the character is lacking. It isn't about Mage or Templar it's about people and most of world is made up of just regular people she is speaking to their fears warranted by Anders and unwarranted by the groomed prejudice. He seeing condescension but not her actual words while I don't agree with Vivienne whole heartedly she does bring up points. She is very open to different perspective with other options choices you can see where she is but people take hard stances and she give hard answers
and hard, radical change often backfires when done IRL history. I love Leliana, and I am always for Mage freedom, but I can never fully support her radicalism as Divine. Swinging too fast and far in the opposite direction of the status quo is how you breed instability and insurrection. Even IRL, the countries with the greatest strife and turmoil in this world are those whose governments were overthrown, shifted and replaced (and the effects it had on its people, socioeconomically) too quickly without giving time for the general population to ADJUST.
Heck, even ancient Rome recognized how to instill Christianity into its polytheistic-rooted society and avoiding major upheaval and mass revolts: by doing it slowly.
Thanks for leaving this comment. Yours, and a handful of others who commented on Mapo's view of Vivienne convinced me that I shouldn't bother watching his LP. Shame, because it's always nice to have good DA LPs and Mapo does get recommended a lot in DA fandom spaces. I suppose the ones who recommend him are aligned to his views to begin with.
Also agreed on everything you said about Vivienne. When I first met her, it was like a breath of fresh air. I loved her views, and my elf mage even agreed with her on almost everything. Which brings me to another thing I wonder about the fandom. Why do so many of these dalish mage players care so strongly about the mostly human circle mages? Because mine didn't. Yes of course she agreed that Circles should not be prisons and that every mage should be treated well, but that Circles or something similar anyway MUST exist.
The human mages need a system, and it cannot be this free for all because it puts the Dalish mages at risk too. All mages being apostates means there's no distinction between the former circle mages and the Dalish mages that, as per Merrill in DA2, Templars generally left alone. Now since all mages are apostates, all mages will be at risk. My Dalish mage was all about securing her own clan and people above humans, even if they are mages. She is elf first, mage second. After all, Tevinters were mages, and they were the biggest oppressors to the elves.
Anyway I've rambled a bit. Just wanted to thank you for your comment.
"Tevinter is just a mess, isn't it? Then again, everywhere is a mess" Thedas is a crapsack world, pretty much. (link to tvtropes not added)
I have seen too many playthroughs with choosing mages. I f I ever finally get to play Inquisition, I will choose templars first time. There are further changes to the story btw, so certainly try to play the game again with actually choosing templars
Doing - or not doing - the flag ritual brings different outcomes to a specific NPC. Won't say any more so as to not spoil it. :🤐
Envy baby!
Champions has one key advantage over Hushed Whispers:
If you play your cards right you can later on...SPOILER:
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...send Abernache and Chief Goatchucker out together as the most effective diplomat team ever.
Vivienne makes valid points! She plays the game like a real Orlaisian, so reading between lines can be tiring! U can just let mages roam free... Anders is far a too fresh memory! I tend to compromise with her. Got along with all of my companions but Solas... lmfao
i am waiting for these videos, and checking them everyday. hahaha, i was praying for a Qunari mage, that would have given a different perspective specially the all mage team...🥰
Even as an avid mage supporter for all three games, I prefer this level over In Hushed Whispers by MILES lol the Envy demon sequence was chilling
And Sir Barris is amazing. First Templar I’ve ever respected.
for real, the things I wanna do to Barris ❤❤
Augh. Barris is best bae. Man recognizes the foundational issues with the Templar Order, determined to change things. It wasn't just about the Lyrium/Red Lyrium, he saw that - at it's core - the Templars had to be rebuilt from the ground up, and he went to do so. Was a voice of reason and a paragon on what it means to be a Templar, a guardian of people (mages and non-mages like).
Barris >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fiona (who did nothing but infuriate me the whole time through)
@@cainyourkids Fiona is actually one of my fave characters! Though that is almost entirely because of her presence in other media. I don't get why they did NOTHING with Fiona in the game. Like she's such an important character in the world of Thedas, and has such a rich and complex background and reasoning for her choices. And she was left to just hang around and nod. She should have been an active part of every main quest.
@@GhilannugsI'm personally aggrieved of Bioware's style of handling characters' backgrounds through secondary media and then expecting the general populace to have consumed said media when playing the game. They did this to us in Mass Effect 3 with the introduction of Kai Leng, and again with Fiona in DA: I. It's absolutely pissant since everything Fiona did in DA: I (both seen in-game and implied) is the exact opposite of who she was in the novel(s): anti-Tevinter, democratic and defensive of the Mages to a fault. Even her reasoning for allying with Tevinter was shaky - Fereldan (a formidable nation on its own, with a history of beating Orlais' ass out of their lands) has already offered the mages sanctuary and protection under Alistair and/or Anora, and she still continues to gambit with the person who was representative of what she hates. I can understand being desperate, but in the overall perspective of my character (who only knows Fiona by reputation and the interactions in-game) - she's done shit to herself and the people she's supposed to be protecting.
(I know Gaider offhandedly mentioned that a player can surmise that Fiona was under influence of blood magic, but I refuse to believe this and I also greatly dislike writers who do mini-retcons through comments online a la JK Rowling. If it's not stated directly or implied clearly in-game, it didn't happen.)
Now, I don't hate Fiona - I genuinely enjoy characters in fiction who have fuck-ups despite their best intentions. Like, I can be pissed off what they've done, but I would very much appreciate their addition to the worldbuilding as necessary to form a very grounded approach. A game full of yes-men and echo chambers is a boring one, hence my appreciation for characters like Fiona, Vivienne, Sera, Solas, Oghren, etc. I may not like them but I like what they bring. Even if hearing Fiona say she would do it all again in Skyhold, and remembering the Tranquil, pissed me off so much I would rather punt her from the mountaintops of Skyhold...
ok Vivienne essay incoming:
first of all I just want to preface this with the fact that of course it's fine to not like a character, it's fine not to agree with them, it's fine not to get their approval at every possible opportunity, just because I'm writing this doesn't mean that I think anyone who doesn't view the character the exact same way I do is doing something wrong or is stupid and doesn't get them like I do!.. or something. But maybe this perspective will help understand what someone who likes her sees in her?
It's honestly a pretty common complaint about Vivienne, that she's "not willing to hear different perspective" and "thinks her way is the only way" (also usually heard from the Herald who just told her in three different ways "mages should be free" not once seriously considering Vivienne's perspective, but ok ok) paired with the assumption that she couldn't have possibly considered all those perspectives already, or doesn't know what average mage goes through because she has a fancy dress and a title. But she wasn't born with those, she isn't of noble birth or from rich family, she had to earn and fight for everything she had, she knows Circle and Orlesian politics inside and out, and can you imagine it was easy for a mage to get where she is? That all she has now is just some happy accident?
Her perspective is hardly unique too, we meet plenty of mages (most of whom aren't grand enchanters) who think life in the Circles was better, or that some version of the Circles must exist. And if you think that Vivienne wants things *exactly the same* as they were you didn't understand her. Wanting Circles back =/= wanting everything exactly the same.
It's interesting to see someone flipflop from "well if mages are allying with Tevinter I'd rather see Circles back" but then go all gung ho about mage freedom when talking with Viv. And then call her patronizing and condescending when she stands her ground. I just think you agree with her about more things than you realize. She wasn't making fun of Dalish, she just pointed out that they take precautious against magic too (remember Minaeve? the one who was exiled from her clan because they had too many mages?) so they're hardy the one to go all high and mighty about how they treat mages better.
I wish we could grill her more about Tranquility, Right of Annulment and Templar abuses, but nothing she said so far indicated she was 100% fine with how things were. She is very pro-Circle but consider the situation as it is now. All mages are apostates, Chantry in shambles, mages and Templars going at it in the Hinterlands backyards. Restoring the Circles would bring some stability and at least give mages immediate asylum. It might be a step back but it is a solution. While Inquisition and the Herald are all "well I'm for mage freedom on paper but I'll see what options we'll have, bigger problems right now" Vivienne is one of the few people who are actively considering what to do and how to fix it. That's why she's asking all those loaded questions.
Again, not writing all that with the idea of persuading anyone to agree with Vivienne about everything, I myself don't, but so many just go "rich condescending lady who had it easy wants everything back to how it was, she's obviously just power hungry and doesn't care about her fellow mages" as first impression, and just dismiss her as that. It's a pity.
In my opinion, as much as the decision to play separately the "two timelines" - mages or templars - can encompass a more "complete" playthrough, I understand that the simple act of satisfying curiosity can generate spoilers for the future in some aspects as you will get a primary perspective on the two factions and their issues. It may not be anything "serious" at first, but that eliminates much of the impact of some surprises along the plot.
Now, something I always wondered about: why tf it looks like the Templars in DAI can't do shite about magic?? In DAO they'd literally dispel the area all the time and that was a pain to deal with. Since DA2 they're incredbly dull and without purpose, game mechanics wise. Like Dorian would say... "like the Templars back home"
I need to see Mapo try Nier: Automata
I’ve never seen the Templar option before. I’m glad I’ve always gone with the mages, I don’t find this version particularly compelling.
45:27 She wont date any peasants, rather be a mistress of a duke
My way to deal with Vivienne is to smile to her face and say non-committal statements while trying to outmaneuver her politically from the shadows. The Inquisitor needs her influence and connections so how can we take control of them and cut her out of the game. She has some good points about the threat of mages, however, perhaps mages are such a threat from possession because they believe they are.
I enjoyed listening to your opinions and comments during the dialogues with Vivie and Dorian. Gotta love how Dragon Age makes everything complicated and nuanced. I'm glad you're experiencing both paths.
Vivienne is ICONIC, Darling.
i love her so much
I think people lack the perspective of Vivienne, not the other way around. She has the perspective of lower Mages she just sees it for what is happening on ground level with common people. Every day people are not fighting these lofty battles/wars they are making bread and trying to feed their families with the scraps they can muster up. Not templars, Not the Chantry just regular folks who already view Mages as a threat innately.
Even in the dialogue that has been had with her, it's never about her, what she gains or will retain from the Circles. It is always about the lower day-to-day people who will murder and be murdered due to fear of the unknown she said it directly but it is taken as condescending or belittling your beliefs but your character has no set beliefs or perspective. You are Dalish you live on the outside in addition to you being elvish people hate you for your pointy ears and fear you because of your ability to wield magic. In addition, your character lives on the outskirts of society she has no perspective of the regular people just the Dalish, and even within the Dalish she is one of the three mages privileged to live within her group.
Her point isn't everything should be the way they were because "I like it that way". That is what the player is taking from her words but she has never actually said that. She is open to hearing new perspectives however, your character isn't actually giving any new ones though it's just the opposing view of her own. She fears for her people, she is afraid of the bloodshed that can happen, and is doing what she feels is suitable/right to reduce that.
ive always felt the templars quest fit the story better.
Hmm, its a solid quest but isn't as good for the characters of Cole and Dorian imo. I think that its better running into Dorian at Redcliff than Cole at Therinfall. Dorian's mage path intorduction makes him a pretty trustworthy companion once your done and back at Haven. Cole just showing up out of the blue is fine, but Dorian just showing up means that it comes off too sus ( A tevninter mage out of the blue!) and then without the Redcliff quest its a bit of a jarring introduction to the character and you lose the Felix and Alexius mentor links.
@@Blueschist13 you still run into dorian as long as you went to redcliff to talk to the mages and it makes way more sense for dorian to come warn you about (Redacted) than Cole whom you would have never met before showing up.
@@Blueschist13 Just as the OP mentioned, you can still meet Dorian at Redcliffe, and then do COTJ afterwards instead of IHW. I find Cole shines best in this quest than going with the mages. I also personally found IHW very Dorian-centric of a quest - yes it's about the future, but all major links in that quest was for Dorian (being Alexius' student and Felix's friend). I personally felt no connection to the quest whereas COTJ had me involved, especially in seeing how an organization like the Inquisition (something meant for good) can easily fall into corruption and the consequences it leaves in its place (Envy demon masquerading as you).
I also prefer Ser Barris over Fiona, who did nothing but infuriate me despite myself being 9 times out of 10 pro-mage. I hadn't expected to care for Barris, but when his post-COTJ quests involved him recognizing the root problems of the Order, rebuilding it from the ground up and shepherding a better future for both Templars and Mages, I felt this would lead to a better system afterwards. Fiona's handwashing off of her fuck-ups, as well as the massacre of the Tranquil in her 'care', and her refusal to recognize her own mistakes just pissed me off.
Watch the dragon age animation series, it shows a bit more of tevinter.
I hope he takes Iron Bull and Dorian on missions together. 😂
I love that he got three me to Cole this way. 💕
He's such a good boy. I bring him along with Dorian to make him feel guilty. 😂
He flirted with Iron Bull so they won't flirt with each other unless that been changed since I played the game.
@@annabergman1166 Honestly I don't really think it changes anything since they flirt out in the field anyways. 🤷
Unless he commits, then they're free to blossom their own romance if they want to.
Mapo, I beg you, please stop using battle-mode to run around faster, this is why your staff gets stuck in your character's hands in so many cutscenes 💀
but if he didnt then the playthrough would be twice as long
Yeah the always running mod is seriously messing up the game now. Between cut scene staff holding and banter not triggering, it's just not worth it. Plus there are better ways to move faster without using the mod anyway, like fade step.
Oh, it's a mod. I thought to myself "I've had this game for ten years and we could have run this whole time!?"
@@pkuvincentsuOr visiting Master Dennet, but I suspect this is going to be an 'any% no mount' walkthrough. 🙃
@@AquaMaryn.Horses don't really make you move that much faster. I remember hearing/reading a quote from the developers talking about how they added some motion blur to give the illusion that you were moving much faster than you were. They will also prevent banter too.
For those saying they hate Viviene you all just don’t know how to speak to her you need to speak to her as if your playing “The Game”
Don’t agree or disagree with her alway take to middle ground for example when she says we need more people to watch the mages because of the demonic risks, she’s not wrong even solas agrees all mages are more at risk because of the breach I always pick “keep them hidden” mages get their so called “freedom” and those who fear or are worried about the mages will get peace of mind
“The Game” is all about having the upper hand and outplaying someone and Viviene has mastered It because of this Viviene likes to stick to her guns or should I say staffs.
Deep down I believe Viviene wants or even needs to believe that we are the Herald of Andraste so to her the The Herald who is meant to be superior then everyone else disagreeing with her obviously good ideas is total madness it makes her doubt you, BUT she also doesn’t want you to blindly agree with her because that is something someone beneath her would do
So when you take the middle ground you kinda take her ideas and opinions and make them less bad She’ll approve because that’s something a leader would do something someone superior then her would do…
But that’s just my opinion on Viviene I love her as a character and her banter is always funny ever since my first play through I never understood the hate for her her ideas and opinions aren’t wrong just a little too extreme the only thing that i don’t like about her is how hell bent she is about restoring the circles but other than that she’s fine
Yup 💯 agree with to you about Vivienne.
Vivienne is a complex character and many people hate her guts. She does make good points, but I tend to disagree with her on almost everything. Then I again I always fully supported Anders, so I am all for the mages.
I really think exploring alternate outcomes should be left until after you've finished the game. You might end up giving yourself extra context you're not meant to have. Knowing that both sides have been influenced could very well spoil a major reveal or plot point later in the game (I don't know whether or not it does, so no need to berate me for spoilers).
I've always preferred the Templars mission to the Mages. It gives you a better secondary antagonist, a more human like introduction to Dorian and end to Roderick. For Dorian i more mean like, a funnier interaction. If you talked to him at Redcliffe and went to Therinfall, he knows you! His wittiness is great there. I just MUCH prefer the interactions with Dorian and Roderick over anything else. Plus Calpernia is an awesome second antagonist!
Another 2 days to see the most boring part of this quest is killing me :C But I really like that you did it right after the prev one. You know, sets the perspective for later, BUT makes you wonder a lot about how this shit resolves if you choose just one side. I mean..I guess Dorian helps to resolve Alexius's mess, but what about templars?
You know NOTHING about Vivian. (I'm going to keep watching......I'm going to keep watching ......I'm going to keep watching) We all went through this.
Tbh anyone who doesn't get along with Vivvy is all good in my books 😬
I think Vivian really clings to the circles and how things were, because back then she had more power than ever and she wants to restore them for this exact reason to gain back her power if not gain more 😒 I don’t think it has anything to do with the actual mages and their problems
I hate Vivianne and I dont care recluting her in my games xD
I think Vivienne isn't going to leave the Inquisition no matter how much she dislikes you or if you ask her to leave because she doesn't have a safe place to go. Despite her ego at being important among the nobility, she is still an apostate at the moment and the court can only protect her for so long. She is manipulative but savvy enough to understand that she needs to get in good with the people who have power over her fate, as much as she pretends she is in control. Her hypocrisy regarding the mages who don't have her influence is born of fear and understanding that if the empress decided to rescind her position at the court, Vivienne would be in a lot of trouble, so she attaches herself to the Inquisition and tries making herself indispensable in order to protect herself. She could very well be honest about closing the Breach but I do believe her first goal is to maintain her own freedom, even if she has to throw other mages under the bus to do so.
Didn't we see her freeze a man at her own personal powerful rich people party in a palace? She's fine.
The man she froze was a twice disgraced nephew or something who was left behind by his betters when going to the Grand Tourney because his own family knew him for being incompetent. Don't think anyone cared she froze him. Twenty or so templars going after her though? She could take out maybe ten of them but all it takes is one that she misses to bring her down. I'm also purposefully not talking about something else that gets reveled later on in the imperial court because spoilers but that makes it pretty clear that her decision to leave the court and go to the Inquisition was to keep herself safe and relevant to the right people.
Anyone else waiting patiently for this current streak of large story driven RPGs to finish? Unless Divinity: Original Sin or its sequel are next (or even Baldur gate 3), I could bite that.
why so many players so pro mage? genuinely dont understand
Because mages actually go out of their way to contact you while templars are "you will not adress me". I chose both on different playthroughs but trying to convince someone who's not willing to even talk to you is exhausting and unnecessary, because mages are there, already waiting for your reply.
@@duralireha what i meant is why everyone thinks mage should be free? they are abominations without control, same as templars controlled from chantry with lyrium supply
because mages are massively opressed and the templars and usually but not always massive dicks
@@dragerdet which is exactly what divine tried to do. and there should be restriction and regulations for both parties instead of simply free all mages or keeping let templars being pricks. But i assume video games logic should be simpler than my paranoid thinking
Because I think that condemning people because of what they don't choose to be is wrong. It's more nuanced than that but that's the gist.
can you try to play cry of fear someday?