Thank you so much. Besides the main contradictions I picked up as I was in church, angels were the first topic I went outside of church to look into. The late Dr. Michael Heiser was my gateway to so much more interesting topics that I felt the churches ignored. You cannot claim supernatural things of God but ignore and scoff the supernatural beings in the Old Testament. Have you seen Psalm 82? "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. 5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations." Thanks for this topic, I didn't think too much of them as slaves at the time, but then again, it's nothing unusual since we are to be slaves of God and own slaves ourselves. It is consistent. Great video!! My true interest beyond human drama are the angels.
Secondly, something that really peaks my interest with "satan" is the story of Adam and Eve. I don't believe that the serpent in Genesis is Satan because it is described as "more subtle than any beast of the field" Anyways, what makes me crazy is after God realizes they went against his orders: God speaks to the serpent first and says his punishment will be above all the cattle? and above every beast of the field? What does this "above" mean? He curses him to crawl on his belly, which means this is something new and worse than whatever he was doing before. He is cursed to eat dust... So he then mentions that his punishment is to put active EMNITY *between THEE AND THE WOMAN* which, the opposite means that there was something akin to a relationship of sorts between serpent and the woman. They had a relationship. We don't see woman speaking to man AT ALL. The next line, as punishment says that emnity will also be put between their SEED. Their offspring also will be made to despise one another. So I am really feeling this was a close relationship between serpent and woman. Would love to dive more historically into the innuendo that is probably 'heel' and 'head'. Next, the woman's punishment is to multiply her sorry and to MULTIPLY HER CONCEPTION and in sorrow she will now have children because, the next line, says as PUNISHMENT her desire will now be for man!! And her punishment is now that not only will her desire be directed toward man but he will rule over her. I bet you that woman had relationship with serpent but because man did nothing wrong except listen to his wife... now the woman's punishment is to no longer be allowed to have relations with the serpent (who, don't forget, told the truth... against God's lie...) and her punishment is to be subject under man because all he was doing was God's work up until the point he listened to the woman. Man gets away with a slap on the wrist compared to the serpent and woman. Anyways, this is only related to ANGEL *IF* you feel that Satan is the serpent. Otherwise, this is just a message about an insanely misunderstood and misrepresented passage. I would love to find more on this historically because I find the mythological parts of the Bible more fascinating than the human drama. 😂❤❤ Thanks for the videos, Brandon!! I really appreciate how you stick to the text.
@@n.c.1201 We can deduce that Satan is not the devil just from the literal translation of the word satan (and a bit later ha-satan) - the accuser, not the evil guy. A prosecutor in court, an agent with a clear purpose, not endowed with malice. Unless you’re the one being prosecuted, then the perspective is different, though the role stays the same.
I have commented before, if god lost 1/3 of the angels in less than a week then why did he create humans in a worse environment? It’s like having a baby to save an abusive marriage and then being mad at the baby
Well, in Hebrew, it tells you. 1.) Satan and Lucifer, if read in hebrew, are not the same. They are not interchangeable titles like water and agua. They are different like a channel and a tv. 2.) Lucifer is a mind-born son. An angel. 3.) Satan aka Coshek aka Tehmot aka Tiamat is the force of god not favoring/caring for/paying attention to something. It causes that thing to die, or begin to. 4.) Lucifer (Helia'El) 's job was to contemplate the WORTHINESS of god. He found, due to gods satanic nature of his subconscious, to be unworthy of a throne. 5.) God then displaces the blame by trying to basically claim that he and his subconscious (the Coshek) are not one in the same. 6.) Lucifer is called Satan because he begins to actively channel and embrace the satanic nature of god. The part beneath gods conscious awareness. Hence, why in Luciferianism, we dog pile on the concepts of "there can be no religion higher than truth", and "no one is aware of an unknown-unknown. Not even god" The law of equivalent exchange.. etc.. even things which god cannot refute. He became called the (senseless) accuser. Its a derogatory and downward title of "accuser". Like a guilty man saying the prosecutor "doesnt know what hes talking about" and "dont listen to him". This whole war is about maintaining this gods transparently flawed nature. Lucifer merely reflects the behavior that god denies, right back at him. God basically swears he doesnt sound the way he does on a video recorder. He guilty. Period. And he must be punished for his crimes against living beings who didnt ask for any of this.
We don't really know if the choice doesn't cause harm. Even if it causes mental anguish, that's still harm. Or what if flying around screaming "HOLY! HOLY! HOLY!" for a few billion years makes your vocal chords feel like it's going to jump out of your throat and your wings feel like they are going to fall off? If 1/3 of your children flee from you, then some kind of harm was being caused even when they obeyed.
@@suicune2001 It's ok, the angels were made in such a way that they never get physically tired. Tired of god's bullshit? Well, that's a different matter. Whoever made this nonsense up must have been high on something, and psychologically disturbed to begin with, anyway.
@pineapplepenumbra From what I've been told, they told me that there were times when the Israelites were captured by neighboring countries. They have suffered from trauma due to the wars and have plagiarized their stories from nations that captured them.
@@elmoworld850 Yes, that certainly sounds plausible. It's a mix of propaganda, poetry, myths and legends, and trying to make themselves feel better, one way or another.
I really like nonstampcollector’s portrayal of angels where they are constantly trying to stop him from doing insane stuff and make crazy commandments. “But Lord!”
@@missinterpretation4984 So you designed the perfect place for him, to test him, and if he passes the test he will be rewarded by coming to the perfect place for him? Yep. 😂😂😂
@@tomaskey6844 I think almost everything can be debunked by this single sentence: God is not the author of confusion. However, I think that your comment shows the importance of reading books individually, as they were written, as a single book rather than a whole. Because it is all just rather silly.
@@n.c.1201 and thought sin and evil iz gawds kryptonite yet have a transformers war in da afterlife. Also also ( fear gawd iz beginning of wisdom ) also gawd ( for da fearful will share their place with others in hell) how does religious beliefs even exist az a thing if da creator iz outside of knowledge yet believers know everything bout da unknowable and not to be comprehend.
@n.c.1201 that is how you know that these books were written by men and only logically work if they were considered " individual books", each author building up on the theology , and in chronological order, as theology " progresses"
I mentioned this last week but when I was little I asked my very Catholic grandfather if God loved the Devil. He said no of course not. I was confused and said, "I thought God loved everyone?" He said, "Yes, but not the Devil!"
I could never around how all those 'ethereal' entities somehow have human fears, emotions, and vulnerabilities. Isn't it obvious it's just made up by mortals who ascribe all our qualities to, because all the authors are working within the limitations of their small experience and imagination
@@ennuiblue4295 because christians think God is anthropmorphized in the bible as so that we can relate to them. So it's kinda what you said, except they think God still exists.
As a child, I heard it said that God had no need to create any other beings as He was totally sufficient in Himself - creation of other beings was a demonstration of His love, to have other beings to care for It seems it’s more ‘if a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound?’ If an Eternal, N-Dimensional, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Being has no one to worship It, does It exist? Thanks for another thought-provoking presentation, Brandon
Endless existence is the biggest cruelty, so rather than endure it alone, God created other beings and cursed their souls with endless existence too, so that he is at least not alone. Just my hypothesis 😂
"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
Well, christians DO love to say "Christ is king", after all. Always thought of it as being rather strange, since "king" is not even the highest royal title one can have, so it's not really the biggest honor to be called that, y'know? You figure christians would only give him the highest praise, instead of settling down for less...
@@Julia-me2wm; I actually like the idea of an imperfect god. If god isn't perfect, but is just trying their best to do a good job at god'ing, I think that's fine. But, if they are supposed to be perfect, and the world turned out this way... then either something went terribly wrong, or they're just cruel.
We don't know what is going on the other side. God created everything means everything here.(I am also having deja vu right now. I kind of have noticed that the more I let God guide me the more deja vu I get. Its like deja vu is a sign that you are on a right path .) So you know, stuff happens.
@@gandalainsley6467; The way I figure, it could just as easily be possible that there ISN'T any other side. That it's just us, inventing and exchanging stories with one another. I don't think it's the belief in god that bugs me nearly as much as the automatic ASSUMPTION that there's definitely a god. Maybe you're right, and god gives people Deja Vu, or maybe Deja Vu is something our brains just naturally do sometimes. Honestly, the thing that unsettles me most about a lot of religious-types I meet is the complete and total certainty they have over things that none of us can possibly know. I don't see that absolute confidence as a good thing. People who 100% believe they are right are capable of some of the very worst things humans can do to one another.
Even when I was a kid I wondered why God created us just to have a relationship with when he already had the angels. I figured they must be pretty jealous. And it didn't seem like they had much of a self fulfilling existence. The word I guess I was always searching for was "slaves".
God must be moving too fast for even the angels to notice when he patches them up, and the reasons for which he does so. What do you think God is enslaving the angels to do?
My answer is we are the ones made in God’s likeness made for, by and through Jesus and at Jesus word. We are the ones created for Him by Him And in His likeness. We are the ones Jesus created to be with. Just like the animals could not satisfy Adam, and it was not good for the man to be alone, but Adam needed one in his own likeness. We are the ones made in Gods likeness for Him.
@@KateeAngel Agreed. It seems nothing says anything about this God essence thingy , but everything ever written about Gods or goddesses say something about the desires, needs, wants, and dreams of whoever had something to do with creating their narratives.
one of the questions I ask Christians is if there was a rebellion in heaven once then what prevents it from happening again and they'll often tell me they won't want to rebel again when they've seen what will happen to the through the example of Satan but then that feels like they're living in fear and another question is, if an angel can become bad then why can't a demon become good? we've seen formally really bad people turn their lives around and make valuable contributions to society or is it once bad always bad when it comes to spirits
Its once bad always bad for the angels accorfing christians because they are immortal & once they fall, they stay fallen. Its why they say humans can be redeemed to god cause we have a limited life & thus can be reborn/remade to fit gods standard after death, so long as you accept that jesus died & all that jazz
The LORD has a special relationship with man. satan is very jealous of this relationship, and it is the LORD's choice to Love us more than satan even before he was cast out and Forgive us, something which satan can never have. Have you encountered anyone being jealous of another? satan is as jealous as he can be of man receiving frogiveness through the cross. This is where all jealousy comes from. God loves us more than satan, and he is jealous of the LORD's Charity.
I just find it highly amusing to think of angels, enslaved to god's will for millennia, just deciding to defect for a little bit to "fraternize" with human women.
The 144,000 sealed from the tribes of Israel will not be familiar; unmarried is a higher calling. "And He answered and said to me, and I heard His voice: 'Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice. And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: "You should intercede" for men, and not men for you: Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children of earth, and begotten giants (as your) sons? And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die and perish. Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. But you were formerly spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling. And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them."
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
You can't "fraternize" with women. Fraternize is to brother to someone. You sororalize with women. (sister them) Men belong to fraternities, women belong to sororities.
Two of the strongest arguments against god’s morality are slavery and the problem of suffering, of humans and even more so of animals (as aptly argued by Alex O’Connor). And this video is making the case for a pro-slavery god that much stronger. Excellent content, as usual. Thank you, Brandon.
"Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ." - those men who called themselves masters over slaves and were not the Lord's Perfect and only Begotten Son therefore sinned by claiming themselves masters. Therefore all who had slaves in America and called themselves masters of them sinned in the sight of the LORD, Amen.
@@coopersheldon394aptly countered by 1 Peter 2:18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
I agree I'm at work right now on Sunday. I'm on my lunch break watching Brandon's latest video on how angels are slaves and I prefer watching Brandon's videos over listening to church sermons But I also prefer being at work than being at church
@@thing1thing2themediamaniac43 "But I also prefer being at work than being at church" Same here. I often work on Sundays, anyway, but try to have another day off during the week. Annoyingly, that hasn't happened for a bit.
When I don't go to work Sundays I have it off I go to church with my family. Christianity is still very much a part of my identity outside of myself even though I no longer internally think of myself as A Christian. I don't know if I'll ever come out as a Former Believer to my parents or my Tea Party Friends I am trying to get my Tea Party Christians Friends to divorce themselves from Israel without trying to deconvert them It's time America divorced itself from Israel, Palestine, Ukrain and stop sending money to every foreign country and getting involved in their political affairs.
I’ve always been told that Angels couldn’t be saved because they weren’t humans, and only humans could be saved by the death of Jesus. But it’s hard to defend angels having no ability to be redeemed without resorting to simply God didn’t want them to be saved. What if Lucifer really wanted redemption but found out he will never be saved so that is why he is so Hellbent against God.
Interesting theory. According to Catholic theology, the reason for Lucifer's rebellion was because God made mankind with souls, which placed them higher in creation than the angels.
@@Charlotte_Martel That raises questions on the nature of angels, however. I do hear the distinction between soul and spirit, and perhaps angels only have spirit? Though it still sounds similar to the Islamic interpretation, where Iblis [Lucifer], is a djinn, made of fire, whose disdain for humanity stems from humanity being made of dirt.
The concept of "freewill" in the Bible cannot work when you have an omniscient being creating everything from the start. A being that already knows the end from the beginning (determined) can't insert his influence in the life of someone who hands up an arbitrary prayer with supposed "freewill"...it's not going to change the outcome. There's no reason to pray except for obedience. Even the Bible says God knows what we need before we ask. It's pointless. in conclusion, he's a narcissist.
I with all honesty don't believe that the Bible is God's word, is men made library to control humanity... just look around all the religions in the world and is impossible that they are all correct. Every single one of them proclaim to be the right one lol. I was a Baptist Christian for over 20 years till 2022 when my child passed my eyes got wide open and I did soooo much research and come to a conclusion that the Bible is a men made library. I lot of the things made no sense to me but I always just stayed quiet and went with the flow till my baby passed I thought enough is enough
Great comment. It has also been brought up that this god has a perfect plan and prayers are asking god to change his perfect plan. If prayer is just saying god’s will be done as some Christians believe, it is just giving the acknowledgement that god is going to do what he is already going to do. So what is the point?
This is not too far off. A being with power like God's power who had a will to sin could create infinite evil. Preventing the creation of infinite evil justifies infinite “curbing our freedoms in the name of counter terrorism.” There is plenty of evidence in the scripture that in Heaven we will be like Christ, with free action and infinite power. This is why God only allows those of good will to have eternal life. An omnibenevolent being could not allow the creation of infinite evil.
I get what ur saying but Christians dont say this, muslims say this. They go talking about how great their religion is and say that everyone was born a muslim and then go on to say that anybody who leaves islam was never muslim to begin with
@@macewindu5804 Christians may not outright say this verbatim, but they elude to it with statements like "You were never a real Christian" and then quote 2 Corinthians 11... All theistic religions have their version of someone" not getting it " and walking away.
I've had people tell me, and I was raised being told it, that God can't show himself to us because then we would lose our free will to be able to accept or not accept him, and since I grew up I was always *hands rapidly flail, pointing in a general direction* "angels and satan rejected!"
That’s so messed up. If anything god not showing himself to us actually removes our free will to accept him because we don’t even know if he exists, belief isn’t a choice after all.
God revealed himself to my family, well a spirit called by him. It wasn't God speaking, but some sort of spirit sent by him. Anyways, it gave us a message. When that happened I was 11 and my cousins were around the same age, I'm now 23. Even though they've experienced the work of God, they have turned to their own sinful desire, one of my cousins became a ho3 and another became a homosexual. Although they have seen the work of God, they still chose their own way. What I'm getting at is, if God showed himself or not, it wouldn't matter. Those who are his will follow him and those who are not will abandon him. God knows his people before he created existence, he knows who is his and who is against him before creation happened. Him showing himself won't change anything, I've experienced it.
@@darrennew8211 Have you watched that video of Matt Damon appearing off to the side of the stage, eating an apple, that Jimmy Kimmel was on giving out awards, like he was clueless to what was happening? Yeah, that's what's happening here.
@@TravelsTTG Easy. I've always understood angels to be meant literally. Even though I don't believe any of it, I know the bible means them to be understood as real. Just like I know that Harry Harrison's The Stainless Steel Rat is fiction, but the titular character isn't meant to be figurative within the context of the story.
They talk about religious people being concerned with free will because the lack of Free Will means that followers are just robots. Never realizing the inherent contradiction in that statement by questioning their own beliefs by questioning their own beliefs. But one thing that never gets talked about is why did God create actual metal robots to serve man instead of angels?
"But one thing that never gets talked about is why [didn't] God create actual metal robots to serve man instead of angels? Actual metal robots would be _material beings._ Angels are made out of spirit, whatever that is. It's properties are unknowable to science.
I love this topic so much. To me it shows a glaring weakness in church doctrine but damn its fascinating. Firstly I heard that angels cannot take physical form and cannot reproduce, but then we have the watchers coming down and mating with women. Then I heard there are only male angels but then there was a story in the bible of 3 female angels. The early church fathers also believed that the nephilim were the offspring of angel and men, but slowly this changed to the sons of seth mating with the daughters of cain. But of course it should be known that ultimately the idea of angels was not original to Judaism but was in ancient mesopotamia and Zoroastrianism.
The angels only existing to worship him is such a weird concept. I remember questioning it and being told that he was so big and powerful that he deserved it. It wasn’t until I deconstructed that I realized exactly how fucked that idea is.
"I remember...being told that he was so big and powerful that he deserved it." To worship or glorify God means to do good. To worship God is to do as God wills. If God is good, then God's will is to do good. Thus to do God's will is to do good. The angels only exist to do God's will, which is to worship him, which to do good.
@@wolfofthewest8019 that’s a cute way to redefine the problem away, but little more than word games. Unless doing good is standing around for eternity repeating “holy, holy, holy” endlessly.
Note: For people who don't understand attributes of Christian God, I recommend reading Attributes of God in Christianity in Wikipedia, before replying to me.
12:23 When I learned this in Sunday school it never made sense to me. I remember thinking if god can be so cruel to his own angels why would he spare me. I felt bad for satan and thought god really abandoned him. I realized at a young age my inner skeptic had to keep quiet. I didn’t want to end up like satan just for questioning blatant contradictions.
This was a fun one. Loved mythology. If I look at the Christianity the same way as Greek or Roman mythology it could be fun. Too bad many Christians try force this myth on the rest of us as if it were the truth.
Everyone who has believed in money in times past has died believing in it. Even Rockefeller _was_, Muhammed Ali _was_, yet I am alive and healthier than ever. Too many came to me with regret saying they had everyhting they wanted in life, became diagnosed with cancer with two years left to live, and said that after doing horrible things they are now struck with the reality that they have to face God. "it was all for nothing" - a wealthy actor of gunsmoke who had a huge family, right before he died. "so much straw" - a theologian commmenting on his work who then died being lost in the catholic church. You can't take money with you, but "Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." So although Faith saves, faith without works is dead; no point in one saying they believe and continuing to work iniquity.
@@coopersheldon394 About that "Satan believes God exists" thing...I think there is a difference between believing in something's existence and believing IN someone. I believe my husband exists, but I don't have faith in him anymore, though I still have love for him.
@@greenleaf239 I tend to think God wants to be worshipped in the same way a mob boss wants to be respected. If you don't have enough of that kind of respect, you can't get others to do what you want them to do.
No, to worship God is to do God's will, and since God's will is good, to worship God is to _do good._ That idea is repeated throughout the bible. God repeatedly makes the point that sacrificing animals and prayers to him, while certainly nice, is not the kind of worship he wants -- those are things we do to please ourselves, not God. To truly worship God, stop and talk to a homeless person like they are a human being, offer them some cash, and let them know that they are loved. Visit a dying person in the hospital and hold their hand, hear their stories, and remember them. Take on the responsibility of raising a child who has no parents. Mediate peace between two people at odds with each other. Smile at a child, pet a puppy, watch a sunset and say "Good job, God. That was a beautiful one." That's how you worship God. By loving God, loving his creation, and loving each other.
"God respects free will" The Angels, people whose hearts were hardened, how human brains work (Alex O'Connor and many more have explained the determinists or for some compatibilist position) or the whole god gives up on disbelievers, therefore, their hearts are no longer able to gonna be able to accept the Lord (Some legit say god wants nonbelievers to not go to heaven without directly saying). Free will is such a copout to absolve God of any responsibility
@@abstraction6212 Yep. God is to thank for everything good, buuuut... satan is the one to blame for everything bad? What does that leave us with, then? Boring grey choices that don't actually have any important effect, like "will I drink pepsi or fanta today?"!? Free will is a joke.
@@ravaniphoenix5431 and then the book of job tells us: "Wisdom cannot be found in the land of the living" looking at the verse knowing how evil Jehovah is, that verse comes out as egotistical, narcissistic, petulant and at the bottom of it all, Pretentious, that Gods word is the ONLY way to be good. Yet folks like Confucius, Epicurus, Zeno of Citium, and Shurupak, all have practical realistic advice on how to be a good guide for one's life, made by mortals who existed centuries before Jesus. the verse alone also shows Yaweh is that desperate to be the center of attention and to stay relevant. God didn't just harden pharohs heart, God harden the heart of himself.
God violates adam to make eve and god tried to break and coherse Lilith to be with adam how adam wanted her to be which was against herself, her will, and her dignity.
@@ravaniphoenix5431 here is something you should consider. If you were deceived, you wouldn’t be held responsible for something whether it be a scammed into something or in some cases crime. How come with Satan you’re still guilty if you’re deceived by him? Not only that but god just allows it. Funny how people say atheism is illogical but when you point out original sin they’d do anything to absolve god of responsibility even though god could’ve just not have sin enter the world.
A kinda silly note about species: In my understanding, some species can interbreed but the offspring are sterile. Horse + donkey = sterile mule. And interestingly, the offspring of a lion and a tiger, a liger, is sterile, but is also a giant! (A genetic malfunction causes them to grow much larger than even the largest tiger.) So THAT's why the angel + human offspring were giants. I guess we're lucky they were also sterile? But they had to be destroyed in the flood after all. Divine mercy and all.
They weren't sterile and some of their bloodline survive the Deluge, with their descendants becoming the Anakim of Canaan. Though the claim that the Nephilim are the children of the fallen angels is a traditional belief not actually supported by the text. Essentially all theories of Satan and the Fallen Angels relies on texts outside of scripture. An alternate theory that the Nephilim were the descendants of Cain is equally possible and has support in other Jewish mystical texts.
Why in my 55 years as a Christian I never thought about this? Maybe because all the focus was on Jesus and all the rest had no importance. But you hit the nail on it head. 👍
The BIBLE, GOD, and JESUS CHRIST bring HONOR and ETERNAL LIFE and EXISTENCE on EARTH to HUMAN BEINGS Atheists, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and fanatics of all kinds of Religions KNOW and are fully aware they are unitedly opposed and against the BIBLICAL TRUTHS that - 1. The submissiveness of lowly, ordinary, kind, and respectful persons on earth to the authority of Jesus Christ in their obedience to what's written in Matthew 28: 18 will definitely bring them honor and GOD's favor and reward of ETERNAL LIFE and existence on earth without sufferings, pains, griefs sickness, and death as written in Revelation 21: 3, 4 2. The teachings of Jesus Christ about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" written in Luke 4: 43 and John 11: 25, 26 are the guarantee that loving, kind, considerate, and respectful persons on earth who died recently and thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Job, Naomi, Ruth, King David, Jesus Christ's Followers and disciples, and many others will all be RESURRECTED back to life in the right and proper time so they can happily and honorably live and exist on earth forever as citizens and subjects of the "KINGDOM of GOD" and fully enjoy the eternal love, kindness, goodness, generosities, compassions, favors, and blessings of GOD and his Christ for eternity under the loving and kind rulership, guidance, and protection of Jesus Christ as his GOD and Father's Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth as written in Revelation 11: 15.
You've never thought about this because the entire argument is silly and would only ever occur to a fool who hates God and is wasting his life using his brain to spin up stupid theories to justify his hatred, instead of doing something productive. Hi Brandon!
@@wolfofthewest8019 can you clear up what you are saying? How can someone hate something that the person has no way the know if it exists or not? Are you saying that they hate the concept of god?
The ancient Hebrews created their whole mythology around the maxim, "Shit rolls downhill." When certain Greeks adopted Judaism, then quickly refashioned it into Christianity, everything else could change, but this maxim remained. It is probably because absolute hierarchy is what made the religion so attractive to them.
You made a great point. Why does this god even need angels? He can do everything he wants on his own and he doesn’t require them. A couple reasons. He wants individuals around him 24/7 telling him how awesome he is. It is not enough to know himself how great he is, he needs others to tell him also. Next, ordering the angels to do mundane tasks that he could easily accomplish on his own. It’s all about power. Ex: A slave master could easily get a glass of water or put on his shoes himself but ordering his slave to do it is a show of control and says, “I can ask for literally anything and you will have to do it. I am the boss, I own you.”
@@MindShift-Brandon Thanks for response. I edited the comment after posting to correct a few things and add a bit more. You are right. A perfect god wouldn’t do this.
God needed angels like any non-omnipotent, non-omniscient, and non-benevolent being needs helpers... Not the original writer's fault that the follow-up stories changed their god into such an incoherent mess... right?
Even if that thing did exist it is completely evil and unworthy of any worship. A powerful being that needs to be worshipped and needs servants is insanity.
I have had these exact thoughts. That's why, when I was a Christian, I was praying for Demons and Satana, because, of course, I wasn't fond of the idea of eternal suffering, and I felt much empathy towards the Demons. And during my times of doubt one of the recurring questions that had me doubting the "ultimate goodness" of Yahweh would indeed be the description of Angels as great, mighty and much more perfect than humans, heavenly beings, who are at the same time bound to praise their father for all eternity and basically have no life of their own. Either you have some freedom, but you are hated and doomed to be bound once more by your master in the future (fallen Angels and Satana), or you have no freedom and nothing but eternal servitude to the narcissistic and cruel Middle East god of war and storms (obedient Angels). However, there is one step further to go, and I think you could cover it and it would be just awesome, @MindShift-Brandon . What is the meaning of existence according to the Abrahamic teachings? And by that I mean the reason for existence of anything rather than nothing, the reason for the first thing to appear, be it spiritual or material. Not just the meaning of an individual's life, or an Angel's eternal life, but the meaning of the Universe itself. And the Abrahamic answer is: "Glory of God". Glory of god. It is not that Abrahamic god would create anything out of immense love, happiness and desire to share it with somebody, so he would create the living Universe with many inhabitants, like a passionate writer who loves their stories and characters or a human playing tamagochi or a similar fluff-friendship-comfort videogame. It is Abrahamic god creating everything to escape loneliness, lack of completeness, to compensate for his many complexes and have lesser beings suffer and worship him for his pleasure, like a cash-grab writer who does not care for anything but profits or an annoyed human (me after work, for example) playing a videogame to relieve the stress by destroying something not really valuable to you (enemies in videogames are created to be destroyed, and god created gentiles or humans/Angels who could rebel against him to... *wink*) in an FPS, RPG, RTS or, ironically, god simulator. I believe it could be an even more powerful argument, because it actually envelopes many other arguments in it, including human beings suffering, free will et cetera, Angels suffering, free will et cetera and so on, this is why I try to flesh it out as much as my imagination and cognitive and logical abilities allow.
I kid you not, when I was like in my teen years, I had wondered that “what if Jesus forgave Lucifer?” And I ask the question of Quora, people constantly said he wouldn’t because they already saw god or whatever. Not only is that not fair, but this implies that these angels that they worshiped years on end, get no forgiveness even though he not only watched it happen but KNEW this would happen (if we’re giving him the all knowing part)
@@FireFoxGaming_ according to the Bible…lucifer and his followers commited the unforgivable sin “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” in other words, Lucifer and his followers knew fully well who God is in a way that us humans do not and cannot in this life. He tried to surpass Gods will and was cast out for it. Lucifer and his angels are not forgiven because they don’t want to be forgiven. They do not want to repent. It’s like a rebellious teenager that runs away from their parents and never returns.
@@Sungroove in that case God knew exactly what he was doing when creating Lucifer/Helel. he knew when a war would happen, he knew when he was gonna rebels and so forth. Hell when he made humans he said they would be higher than angels. Imagine worshipping this god since forever since aeons and then suddenly “oh! Let’s create people! They be higher than the angels even though I give them free will and the possibility to commit blasphemy, and I’ll know who is doing what, who is thinking what, and who is saying what! Man giving them free will is so nice!” I mean again that seems super unfair. especially considering that Helel wanted his angels to be higher than people and given a little more love, which makes sense why he would run away as well. Christianity states it was his pride and ego, Lucifarianism states it was to help humanity in a way, there is a bunch of reasons and honestly if we go into dept from different branches to different beliefs entirely we would get who the 7 princess are as people.
he is merciful to us. who knows? maybe he's not to angels because they made their choice not out of ignorance like us. they are fully knowledgeable in what would happen
@@kirylspence1190Us Humans are like newborn babies compared to Angels. God has mercy on us because, like children we are ignorant of the ways of life and the universe. While Angels knew from their very creation.
I’m 74 and never have I heard this take on angels before. I had to pause your video many, many times just to think about your points. I’ll expect I’ll have to come back to this video. This is a very thought provoking argument.
One thing I never understood when I was a Christian was why there was so much confusion about Genesis 6 and if Angels were really having sex with humans and having children, why would God even allow that? It’s just insane to me that people read that in the Bible and are just fine with it.
God created 100 million slaves, and he made humankind as slaves to tend his garden and rule over other things while being ruled over by God. What love.
Fix your comment: humans birth 100 million slaves, and they made humankind as slaves to tend their garden and rule over other things while being ruled over by human. What love.
13:35 this is basically how the variety of non-choices in my high control family felt, before I went no contact with my parents. My dad is a very imposing figure, and our family basically operates on dysfunctional relationship dynamics. When I’ve talked about how I felt like I didn’t have choices, my dad has said that he hasn’t ever stopped us from picking anything. But when the difference in support and approval between the things he wanted us to do, and the things he didn’t, was so big, was it really a choice? Was it really a choice when my dad gave me the passive aggressive cold shoulder and silent treatment FOR A MONTH because I bought a gaming laptop instead of a MacBook of some kind with my own money?
Man, I feel you on this. My dad stopped talking to me for 2 years over not going to a freaking Xmas eve party. My mother hasn't spoken to me in 20 years. Parental pressure is not a choice. Love the name, btw lol
Thank you for covering this topic! This issue has bothered me for a long time. When I was around 5-7 years old, I asked about the angels, demons, and Satan in relation to free will and salvation. I was told that all beings were given free will, but that angels lost their free will (and I suppose demons as well?) after the war in heaven, as they could no longer be trusted with free will combined with their angelic power. I was told this was the reason God went on to make humans, a being lesser in power who could not create such a catastrophic event such as heavenly war and demons just by exercising their free will. I remember thinking a lot about that when I was small, about how the angels who fought alongside God were punished for what the angels-turned-demons did, with their free will being stripped of them. I remember also wondering if angels resented us the way demons did, but couldn’t express that, as they basically did have minds capable of nonconformist thoughts anymore. I felt bad for them, and for the demons who (when I asked about it) had no chance of salvation, even with the death of Christ. I also remember wondering why Satan and the demons continued to fight a losing battle in the same way it was written out that they would. Hadn’t they been around long enough to have heard Revelation discussed over and over again? I was told three possible reasons for this by different people- that 1) they did not possess free will anymore and existed in a determinist system like the angels and so could not change what they were destined to do, 2) that they knew they were in a losing battle but were so full of hate and anger towards God and towards humanity that they bitterly continued on to lead astray as many humans from God as possible- I like to consider this the “sore loser theory”, & 3) God makes it so demons and Satan cannot hear or read anything related to their demise - which is a huge cop out that opens up more questions than answers. When I was in middle school I suddenly because terrified of heaven, as I had read enough of the Bible to realize some things. Heavens whole existence is dependent on Gods creation praising him for all eternity. Not only that, you love doing that and want nothing else, meaning who have been reduced to the mental state of an angel. I was also told we could not feel sad or any other negative emotion in heaven (“He will wipe every tear from their eyes”) which only emphasized what I already suspected about free will being stripped upon entry to heaven. I was told I will not miss or pity my loved ones burning in hell, and in fact I would praise God for his just punishment of them. For awhile I started to come up with a theory that free will leads to suffering, and the only beings to be left with free will at the end of days would be sinners in hell. This made sense, until I was told that those in hell would never feel sorry for themselves and instead accept their punishment as just, and that despite hell being eternal that the tortures of hell would never become mundane or seem lesser in terms of pain. Also, that the real torture of hell was the absence of Gods divine love, presence, and salvation. All of this suggests that God rewires the mind of all who die to no longer be able to access free will, and this is regardless of their afterlife destination.
That is exactly the thing. The balance is not adding up. Being exempt for the glory of god into eternity of suffering, just because you have not been created good enough, because an omnipotent god would know what will be sown as he makes it, truly shifting the "responsability" to it's creation and not to him. So not omnipotent and not all good/loving/fair. And for 1 extremely short lifetime while nothing gets corrected properly by this god, eternity of suffering can await. That does not make sense.
The effects of the fire are forever, but the fire itself is not The wicked end up as just ash It’s called the second death for a reason When we die, our soul dies with it There is neither Mary, nor grandmother, nor saint or apostle in Heaven atm The dead in Christ sleep until the first resurrection upon his Second Coming The damned are revived after and then are burned into ash Once the lake of fire has immolated the fallen angel, his beast, his false prophet and his followers then the flame itself will be no more
@@desmonides Human's creativity and imagination is truly a remarkble thing to behold. What came first? The chicken or the egg? What came first? The god(s) or humanity? "The dead in Christ sleep until the first resurrection upon his Second Coming" Yeah, just like the Jews are still waiting for their "Messiah" and Muhammad already sees Jesus as just one of the prophets. I'm sure that if people want to make a good story, they will have to connect some dots to make things work. First you have biblical claims, followed by interpretations and then speculations thereof to make it all look more real, but that only seem to work best when certain assumptions are taken as truth to begin with. An example if "accepting" there is a god. That gives authority of things said. So less questioning is required or invited to be done. A bubble afraid of needles that can pop it.
@@desmonides An interesting thought, for sure :) but I can not align myself entirely with it. Because during my decades as a believer I did look for explanations, albeit (without really knowing it) within the framework of the religion. Meaning that - as many other "apologists" still do - we start with the religion with the goal to end with the religion. Explanations were necessary and plenty sufficed since it seemed to "work" within the framework. People like Kent Hovind and other apologists who put effort in trying to explain the Bible from a "scientific" perspective came up with a lot of ideas which seemed true at the time for me. When I for many different reasons broke through that framework, a lot of new explanations arised that not only made waaaay more sense, thus sufficed (more), but also being content with not having an answer to everything, sufficed as well. That does not mean that there is a possibility that everything in the Bible is true. There is simply no way. What shifted is the way of looking at the Bible. Everything written in there must come from somewhere in one form or another in ways that would be typical for humans to describe events and religious claims/visions. That is why the story of f.e. Moses or Genesis is still very much intriguing. First as a believer there was the question to what can we find that proves it happened. Then as a non-believer it was what evidence can we find that explains how it got shaped into the story we know of today. Proving f.e. that Cannanites existed is not proving their god was real, but it can shed a light on the Bible as them having a rival god or gods. How would a rival people have dealth with this? How was life back then? etc Saying that a believer would not look for an explanation in search of strengthening the faith is not true. Saying that no explanation will suffice as a non believer, is also not true. It also depends a lot on the individual.
It’s interesting to see how the God narrative has changed over time. Now, the emphasis is on how “loving” God is. It’s like God is whatever the current generation of believers want him to be.
angels are like the "i have no mouth and i must scream" type torture. imagine how terrible an existence that would be. once again satan is the good guy
The BIBLICAL AUTHORITY and TEACHINGS of JESUS CHRIST bring HONOR and ETERNAL LIFE and EXISTENCE on EARTH GOD KNOWS that thousands of years ago, Jesus Christ was hated, insulted, dishonored, tortured, and murdered by arrogant, cruel, merciless, and deceitful persons who were violently opposed and against his Sovereignty and commandments and his Christ's authority and teachings about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" GOD KNOWS that thousands of years and nothing has changed, just the same..... his favor and reward of ETERNAL LIFE and existence on earth without sufferings, pains, griefs, sickness, and death as written in Revelation 21: 3, 4 is still NOT for arrogant, cruel, merciless, and deceitful persons on earth but ONLY for lowly, ordinary, kind, and respectful persons who honor Jesus Christ as their loving, kind, and merciful Master and Heavenly King and obey his teachings too about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" written in Luke 4: 43 and John 11: 25, 26. GOD KNOWS that all human beings will just return to dusts after their deaths just like the animals as written in Ecclesiastes 3: 19, 20 but he knows too that he will not let all the loving, kind, considerate, and respectful persons on earth who died recently and thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Job, Naomi, Ruth, King David, Jesus Christ's Followers and disciples, and many others to remain as worthless and useless dusts on earth forever, instead, he will let Jesus Christ RESURRECT them back to life in the right and proper time so they can happily and honorably live and exist on earth forever as citizens and subjects of the "KINGDOM of GOD" or His Kingdom and fully enjoy his and his Christ's eternal love, kindness, goodness, generosities, compassions, favors, and blessings for eternity under the loving and kind rulership, guidance, and protection of Jesus Christ as his Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth as written in Revelation 11: 15.
not sure about satan being a good guy either, sure he went agaisn't the said "Good" omnipotent being, but satan also wants to hurt people and make them do terrible things with each other, the not so good type of "freedom" you would wish in a kind of society.
You listed God’s faults but left one out. You said that reading the Bible lead to believing that God was, “unjust, unfair, unloving”. The thing you left out was “unreal”. People who believe that the Bible is a true depiction of the creator and creation of the Universe, believe in a tiny God. They believe that barely literate iron age people, who didn’t know the world was round, that the Earth revolves around the sun, nor the vast size and complexity of the Universe or maybe, Multiverse, nor the atom, could somehow accurately describe all of existence. The Bible describes a small god, one who is subject to human jealousy’s, cares about what certain people eat, or whom they love and how. The Bible says we were created in God’s image. Instead, the writers created a god in our image.
It’s with biblical studies like that’s makes it hard for me to view Satan’s rebellion as inherently evil. Of I course I’m perfectly willing to grant that yes he’s the grand evil and not anything that should be emulated. That still doesn’t mean God is still the good guy because even in heaven there’s still trouble; such factions on edge with each other, descriptions of what we can call inequality and not to mention god’s actions and philosophy qualifies him as a despotic ruler.
Why exactly is satan evil? His worst offence is standing up to a dictator. Even when describee by those on the side of god, satan seems like a much likable character.
@@tangerinetangerine4400 1) when you ask a Christian they are unable at any circumstance are capable of perceiving of him as a hypothetical good, let alone perceive any action by god as potentially evil so it’s just a bone for meeting them half way. 2) let’s picture a bully beating everyone up, and everyone knows his character which is god and later someone punches him in the face. It’s not impossible for someone with virtue of doing it, but that’s not the default thing to assume for it’s perfectly possible some other bully trying assert his dominance. 3) regardless his a fictional character therefore has the potential to be portrayed however you want: a hero, a lover, a joke, a tyrant and/or cocktail of them or none of them.
And again we see how the reference to "angels" shows Christianity for the polytheistic religion it actually is. Angels are the LEAST of the lesser gods of Christianity - the dozen archangels have them beat, just for a start. Christianity is a polytheistic religion based on the primitive and barbaric belief in human sacrifice.
On the Nature of Biblical Monsters: "The Bible is teeming with monsters. Giants tromp through the land of milk and honey; Leviathan swims through the wine-dark sea. A stunning array of peculiar creatures, mind-altering spirits, and supernatural hitmen fill the biblical heavens, jarring in both their strangeness and their propensity for violence-especially on God's behalf" - God's Monsters
Traditional view of angels is they are in no way fluffy messengers. No matter how many middle aged women with a bangle fetish try to insinuate otherwise.
I haven't found any consistency among Protestants as to whether angels have free will or not. It used to be (around 20ish years ago) that the standard seemed to be "angels don't have free will". The reasoning is that if angels had free will, then the Christian god would have no reason to make humans. Humans supposedly exist to praise the Christian god in a meaningful way (ie "praise from pre-programmed robots is meaningless") so if angels already do that... what do humans contribute? What is the point in even making humans if there's already free-willed sentient beings to rule over and choose or not choose the Christian god. Ergo, angels do not have free will and it's only humans and the Christian god who does. But that raises the problem of Satan and all the fallen angels being _intentionally made defective and sin-inciting,_ which would make the Christian god the original propagator of sin. Nowadays it seems like the standard is "angels do have free will"... but then... "free will" *is the apologetics justification for the existence of sin.* So even non-rebel angels must necessarily sin if that's true. Did angels have to sacrifice animals in Old Testament times to atone too? Did Jesus' crucifixion cover angels? Or... do they just get auto-expelled as demons with no chance of forgiveness? And why did angels not get the Garden of Eden treatment like humans did? What even is the purpose of creating two different species of free willed beings to run through the Christian god's rat maze reality? And if angels have free will, then clearly divine hiddenness can't use the "it'd affect free will" excuse anymore - 'cause supposedly 1/3 of angels chose not-the-Christian-god (or just Satan did, either way, examples exist). They're kinda damned whichever way they go on that issue. Both are actively problematic for the structure of the narrative. Then again, Christianity seems to have a lot of those kinds of circles to square (for example: if obtaining knowledge of good and evil explicitly makes humans _more like_ the Christian god, how is that sinful? If it's just the disobedience - even though it was to a lie - then the Christian god's morality is just whatever his subjective whim is and has nothing to do with the actual result of the action itself. If it's the becoming more like the Christian god that's sinful then doesn't that make the Christian god the most sinful, since the sin is literally just becoming more like him? And for those who count the Christian god's comments as not a lie because eating the fruit was "spiritual death", how is becoming more like the divine "spiritual death"?).
do you have an author about theology for both of your opinions? You say "Christianity" but it seems more like your friend bob and his church and people who are not inclined in intellectual knowledge such as this. You can have free will and not sin for example, i do not know why you say they must necessarily sin if that's true. Now let's say they sin, then that means they are rebelling . Hence a non rebelling angels with free will exist, a rebelling angels with free will exist, a rebelling angel without free will could not even exist, a non rebelling angel that sins cannot exist, a rebelling angel that sins exists. That's standard belief for hundred of years but then the following of your reasoning rests on a bad presupposition.
@@toonyandfriends1915 It's literally the position of most Christian apologists. As an example: Mike Winger uses it to justify keeping people in Hell forever - supposedly the mere fact that they are conscious means they _will_ continue to sin, so the punishment in Hell supposedly isn't infinite punishment for finite sins but rather continuous punishment for continuous sins, according to Winger. So opening with an attempt to demean other people, not your best play. You're also essentially arguing that it's possible for a free willed being to require no salvation, which is actively contrary to most of the New Testament. Worse, you're arguing that beings that live on longer timescales than humans are _more_ likely to _not_ sin, which is silly. And playing definition shenanigans with what counts as a "rebelling" angel doesn't negate the fact that it's possible to sin without meaning to, and so the definition of "rebellion" you have to adopt there to justify that black and white position also becomes absurd. Claiming something is a "standard belief for hundred of years" doesn't mean anything if it doesn't make any kind of consistent sense, that's just an appeal to tradition. If it's possible for angels not to sin, then it's possible for humans not to sin. The Bible says it's not possible for humans not to sin, ipso facto the same is true of angels - whether they want to or not. And if you want to claim that they're "perfect beings" and that's why they don't sin then a. that means the ones that fell were made imperfect intentionally (so the Christian god wanted them, and also humans, to sin), and b. it means perfect beings are incapable of certain choices and are therefore not free willed. And as a side-note: even if it were just "my friend bob and his church" (which it's not), trying to claim Christians don't say something by saying that it might "just" be a whole church of people you want to think of as dumb saying it is also actively contradictory. If a whole church says it, it's something Christians say - even if you, in all your enlightened traditional wisdom, do not agree with them.
@@Zahaqiel "As an example: Mike Winger uses it to justify keeping people in Hell forever - supposedly the mere fact that they are conscious means they will continue to sin, so the punishment in Hell supposedly isn't infinite punishment for finite sins but rather continuous punishment for continuous sins, according to Winger. So opening with an attempt to demean other people, not your best play." Now, after opening that mike winger is not a theologian or that it even represents "most apologists" becaue mike says a lot of surprising things i have only heard mike say (i don't really like this guy by the way), let's say that everything is true (and i actually think he is actually espousing a view that exists in theology but so badly i might as well say he didn't talk about it) What does this have to do with angels having free will and angels not having free will? Now let's try to make the view a bit stronger, let's say that humans being have free will and during their live they make continuous actions which then taints their soul and lead them to it's natural place: hell. And when it's natural place their soul can't but not sin(because eternity won't work the same as current time) even though it was from their decision that their soul are directed as such as that they continuously sin forever. Okay, now what does that say about angels having free will or not? I'm still not sure. All it tells me is that satan's souls if messed up forever because of his decision and he can't but not be evil (so he will keep rebelling for eternity). Nowhere does it contradict anything. That either angels have free will or not. "You're also essentially arguing that it's possible for a free willed being to require no salvation, which is actively contrary to most of the New Testament. Worse, you're arguing that beings that live on longer timescales than humans are more likely to not sin, which is silly." And here you are you presuppose alot of things. First "it is possible for a free willed being to require no salvation......" what do you mean "require" if salvation is understood as a grace? Do you mean i do not require being saved?? i do not require being saved for... what exactly? I do not require being saved to go to "hell"? Or do you think i am arguing that like "rebelled demons will go to heaven/receive no punishment". "And playing definition shenanigans with what counts as a "rebelling" angel doesn't negate the fact that it's possible to sin without meaning to, and so the definition of "rebellion" you have to adopt there to justify that black and white position also becomes absurd." And again you don't know what you are saying. So you think that an angel, with a vast amount of knowledge and that is pure intellect can sin without "meaning to"? Humans, sure, but not angels which is why you confusing them as just some guys but in the skys that does the biding of God gets you problems. Angels being pure intellect at least can be found clearly into Aquinas for example who spoke extensively about them. "Claiming something is a "standard belief for hundred of years" doesn't mean anything if it doesn't make any kind of consistent sense, that's just an appeal to tradition." Because theologians didn't change this belief unless you can prove otherwise. Otherwise yes, christianity is just a series of tradition, a triune god is a belief and a tradition. And of course i have to appeal to tradition, Especially when you say "well no before Christians believed that they didn't have free will until apologists came around and now want to save face in front of the criticism", what do you think i should appeal to, my friend bob and his church? What about Michael and his church? If a new belief is incoherent than let it be such which is why it would be better for them to abandon to belief and get more informed. "The Bible says it's not possible for humans not to sin, ipso facto the same is true of angels - whether they want to or not. " "It's not possible for humans not to sin so it's true of angel" You are using ipso facto here to impress (as it appears, also not saying it to be mean cuz it appears as such in text lol) and yet you are making some grand logical jump. "it's true for humans so it's true of angels" is only true if humans and angels are of the same nature. But the fact you think angels are being that "lives longer" is already telling. At any rates they are not of the same nature so something being true for humans is not necessarily true for angels, even if both have free will. But yes Adam and eve could've not sinned for example, there's nowhere saying they couldn't. "And if you want to claim that they're "perfect beings" and that's why they don't sin then a. that means the ones that fell were made imperfect intentionally (so the Christian god wanted them to sin), and b. it means perfect beings are incapable of certain choices and are therefore not free willed." What does it mean being perfect? If you mean being maximally great in every aspect imaginable, then no, because that's only God, if you mean, not having sinned then yes perfect beings. Now if you say "that would mean that god could sin" then no, because God is maximally great in every aspect, so that couldn't happen and it would be a logical contradiction to his nature, but not the ones of angels. Angels are beings of pure intellect, if they sin, then they are doing such with their full rationale, that's the kind of being they are. When Satan was made he freely choose to rebel, and other angels not, and that's that.
@@toonyandfriends1915 Is there freewill in heaven? If so, is there sin? If not, then there is nothing to choose from, therefore no freewill. iF you could choose sin, would God allow it? I would assume not, since it's Heaven. Therefore, no freewill.
The Devil or Satan hated you all or all humans. Why are you all taking up for him??? The devil hates mankind guts and it's b/c God prefers men over him. And it's why we have so much mayhem on this earth now.
When you said maybe they’re like robots I couldn’t get the image of the matrix out of my head. The angels just being the ai trying to make sure we run according to plan.
People have created stories where angels are robots. D&D created Maruts (originally helper storm dieties) in the fantasy universe, they are giant holy constructs. The Marvel comics film The Eternals has fantasy cosmology of giant 'space god' constructs (that might have brains inside) that are served by the Eternals, who are supermagic constructs.
In Islam the lower gods/immortals are just messenger robots, so Iblis (their Lucifer character) is not an angel but is a genie… a special genie that hung out with angels… or in another denomination of Islam Iblis was the angel Azazel that was demoted to becoming the genie Iblis. Religions are extremely false and used by evil parents to manipulate their children.
Just adding to the thoughts of both of you here, me personally, I recalled Heroes of Might and Magic Angels also being androids, produced to fend off demons, who are actually aliens according to the lore.
This situation is bizarre, because I can't understand why anyone would take unsubstantiated claims of angels seriously. As an adult, I understand that the Klingons are fictional aliens. Why would Christians think that angels are any less fictional than Klingons, when there is no evidence to suggest that they are?
Thats why you're indoctrinated young. If you believe in an invisible being, served by invisible beings, and that you're mentally influenced by invisible beings, what is the difference? One of the questions on psychology exams is whether you believe in the actuality of a god...Religion is a gateway to mental delusions.
The fact that Angels had to rebel and fight in heaven meant that 1) they have nowhere to go 2) they had no option to just leave somewhere else 3) they felt locked down, and felt the need to fight the statue quo that God set up, as the only option
My head canon about angels was that god made them too great and they were too proud to repent after falling - he would have given them the chance but knew none would take it, and so he made humans, smaller, weaker, who would be willing to humble themselves, repent and accept forgiveness. Of course now that I think of it, why would the tri Omni god do trial and error? This means all he did was premeditated and he didn't care that these beings would be the collateral damage to his "perfect" design. The Dispensationalist doctrine is just awful: god creates angels, to show that they failed, he creates man, and he fails, he lets humanity follow their own heart, and they fail, after the flood he makes a pact with the patriarchs, and they fail, he gives Moses the law, and the Israelites fail, he established kings, and they failed, he sent Jesus, and they crucified him. He established the Church, and we fail, so he will establish his 1000 year kingdom where sin will be swiftly punished, and Satan will be imprisoned, but the moment he is released, Armageddon happens. Then he recreates the entire world, takes all the redeemed to heaven and the new earth and sweeps all the collateral damaged, both human and angelical, under the rug into the lake of fire forever... There! God's perfect design, it all worked out in the end. He is either not all knowing and all powerful, doing trial and error, or he is evil and went through with his plan, (which, being perfect and all sufficient in himself, he could just not have created anything) not caring about all the sentient creatures that would be tortured either eternally or temporarily before being anhilated.
Also the explanation of angels being too great to be able to repent doesn’t even make sense. First, with god being tri-Omni, he would’ve known he was making the angels too great to be able to repent and went along with it anyway, so he never wanted them to repent and just continue suffering as demons in hell, which doesn’t seem very omnibenevolent to be. Second, if the angels were too great to repent then that puts a limit on God’s own greatness, because the angels were in the presence of God so they would’ve known exactly how great he is. Now unless we want to claim the angels themselves were on a similar level of being tri-omni as god, then the greatness of angels would be infinitely below the greatness of god, so it makes no sense that angels, who know God’s greatness to be infinitely greater than their own, to still value their own thoughts and judgements enough that they wouldn’t repent when god disapproves of those thoughts and judgements.
@@jacobhall4655 well that's a great point. Also makes me think of how Satan is allowed to do anything, deceive people, blind them, etc. God could in theory just prevent him, and if he doesn't, he is essentially allowing it, and the power imbalance works the other way, with Satan being so wiser and greater than humans as to make us defense less against him. One of the last things that happened before I left church was me proofreading an article for a magazine and the missionary was writing on Ephesians, he literally wrote that people are powerless to resist the influence of this great enemy, and so they chose to reject the message of god. I must have read and heard such things many times before, but it was my first time really noticing it. The very idea of a "deceiver" implies the person deceived can't be blamed. You were either presented with false information or emotionally manipulated in such a way that you made a decision you wouldn't have made otherwise.
@@jacobhall4655 There's also the part where God doesn't want man to "become as they are", indicating that his Creation could have been on equal ground. Hey! Maybe the Mormons got a hold of the Tree of Knowledge and that's how they're going to get them planets! LOL
@@CatDaddyGuitar "... indicating that his Creation could have been on equal ground." You're so close to figuring it out. "Maybe the Mormons got a hold of the Tree of Knowledge and that's how they're going to get them planets! LOL" Getting warmer!
### Flaws in the Biblical Narrative as Presented in the Video #### 1. **Inconsistent Depiction of Free Will** - **Issue**: The biblical narrative suggests that angels, like humans, possess free will. However, the consequences for angels exercising their free will (eternal damnation) are far more severe and irreversible than for humans. - **Flaw**: This inconsistency challenges the notion of a just and fair God. If both humans and angels are given free will, the disparity in consequences undermines the fairness of divine justice. #### 2. **Moral Implications of Divine Coercion** - **Issue**: Angels are created with the primary purpose of serving and worshiping God, with the alternative being eternal punishment. - **Flaw**: This arrangement resembles coercion more than free will. Creating beings with the sole purpose of servitude under threat of severe punishment questions the moral integrity of the creator. #### 3. **Problem of Eternal Punishment** - **Issue**: The eternal punishment for angels who rebel, as depicted in stories like Satan’s fall, is disproportionate to the offense. - **Flaw**: Eternal punishment for finite actions challenges the concept of proportional justice, which is a cornerstone of fair and moral judicial systems. #### 4. **Lack of Opportunity for Redemption** - **Issue**: Unlike humans, angels are not offered a path to redemption or forgiveness once they rebel. - **Flaw**: This lack of a redemptive option for angels suggests a rigid and unforgiving divine system, which contrasts with the narrative of a merciful and forgiving God presented for humans. #### 5. **Ethical Issues with Divine Creation** - **Issue**: The narrative that God created angels specifically for worship and service, knowing that rebellion would result in eternal damnation, raises ethical concerns. - **Flaw**: Creating beings with predetermined roles and severe consequences for non-compliance questions the ethics of such creation. It suggests a manipulative and authoritarian aspect to divine creation. #### 6. **Analogies to Human Slavery** - **Issue**: The roles and treatment of angels are likened to slavery, where beings are created to serve without genuine autonomy. - **Flaw**: This analogy underscores the ethical problems with the divine system. If human slavery is considered morally reprehensible, then a divine system that mirrors such dynamics is equally problematic. #### 7. **Discrepancies in Divine Justice** - **Issue**: The different treatments of angels and humans in terms of justice and redemption highlight discrepancies in the divine justice system. - **Flaw**: Inconsistent application of justice and mercy between different creations (angels vs. humans) undermines the notion of a perfectly just and fair deity. #### 8. **Special Pleading for Divine Actions** - **Issue**: Apologists often use special pleading to justify God’s actions towards angels, arguing that divine justice operates on a different moral plane. - **Flaw**: Special pleading weakens the argument for a coherent and understandable moral framework. If divine actions cannot be justified within a consistent moral system, it raises questions about the nature of divine morality. ### Conclusion The biblical narrative, as critiqued in the video, reveals several flaws regarding the concepts of free will, justice, and morality. These flaws challenge the traditional portrayal of a just and benevolent deity and call for a re-examination of theological beliefs and the ethical implications of the divine actions described in the Bible.
22:55 The answer to why apologists make excuses for god's behavior is simple. They're either too scared of what he'll do to them if they question him, or they're just like him and are trying to justify their behavior under the guise of justifying god's behavior.
I was recently thinking about how "angel" literally means "messenger," which makes me wonder how much of the other concepts we include with the word "angel" is just extra-Biblical cultural accretion, in the same way that nowhere does it say that "three" "kings" visited baby Jesus while he was in the "manger."
excellent video, and you brought many good points that aren't usually talked about. because your questions come from reading the text and thinking about the text and then common sense makes us ask questions. So again great video
Who is making up this garbage? An all powerful god named Yahweh, who always existed, decides to create an army of angels to serve him and worship him. Yahweh is all knowing, all wise, all loving and cannot make a mistake but some of the angels rebel against him anyway. The bad angels are defeated by the good angels and cast into hell but escape and roam the earth tempting the humans to rebel against Yahweh, who according to his own actions is a schizophrenic, mass murdering monster who can't stop them. This is just bad storytelling. Learn how to write a decent story.
Very well articulated points, thanks. Angels and demons seem to me like folklore that grew to the point that it took over several whole religions. Another thing that the Judeo-Christian sects dedicatedly ignore is that their belief in the existence of angels and demons means that they are henotheistic, not monotheistic. Paul even says that the other gods are demons, meaning that other gods exist. Giving a special word to the lower entities in their pantheon doesn't make it any less a pantheon. ------------------------------------- "Double-bind" choices (where there is no acceptable choice) are used by torturers and mind control programmers as a technique to break people and install shame. They are not real choices. The essence of the Christian salvation message seems to be one big double-bind choice to break and control people and install shame.
You are still a breath of fresh air in this space. I've never thought of this before: Just because 1/3 of the angels rebelled, doesn't mean the other 2/3 were all totally on God's side. Just to make it even, let's say 1/3 loved God, and 1/3 were on the fence and just too scared of the consequences, _especially_ after seeing what happened. There are discontents among the heavenly host
Taking notes from Paradise Lost (A POV tale from Lucifer), and then some from the Bible, the angels used to have free will. But after banning Lucifer away, it is said that God took away free will from the angels to prevent another uprising. That's why they look like this mindless machine... just giving and feeding stuff God wants to hear, and probably we want to hear. But do angels even think for themselves? Do they have their own thoughts? Do they even once question the same way as Lucifer? *_I'm gonna pity for the Seraphims now._*
The Bible... God created man in His image... Man created God in his image to justify his ignorance and injustice and anger and hatred and bigotry. If God created the Universe and if God is Omniscient... why would God be so flawed! Because God is a creation of flawed man.
Hi, it is impossible for man to create God in his image seeing we cannot possibly precive the fullest of God, what you named were all man's faults portrayed onto God, due to sin. due to sin we have fallen and it has made a rift between man and God. no sinful man can see the fullest of God and live, exodus 33:22 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man shall see Me and live. Not because he will kill them but God being so holy ( The Hebrew word for "holy" literally means "separate" or "set apart". This can refer to God's separation from sin and evil, or to God's people being set apart from sin, and purity incapableof sinning as stated in James 1:13 -14 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed ) and righteous if a sinful man came into his presence he will drop dead, Biblical characters like John wrote in revelations 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last. There's more I can say if you will like me to explain further or if you have an6other questions on my Lord and savior ❤🙂
Great video B, like i always said, How did God create imperfect heavenly angels. Perfect means no flaws, no bad intentions, no mistakes from mind and soul. The War in Heaven story will always bring an excuse for "free will". I would consider your channel to every Christian to open their mind a bit !
A couple of head canon things I don't have any biblical sources for: I think angels can breed with any species. They just seem magical like that. I'm also reminded of that angel with the flaming sword who is supposed to guard the entrance to Eden. Poor angel will still be there a few trillion years from now after we're long dead. All because Yahweh didn't think to have them guard the tree to begin with. lol I find it extremely hard to believe Yahweh is as great as he says he is when 30% of your children flee from you the second they get the chance. And seeing the punishment they received......yeah. They were right to run away.
Brandon you just set off another -light-bulb for me. So God sent a messenger to tell Hagar to go back to the house of an abusive woman and a spineless man who would not stand up to his wife and tell her to stop her abuse of Hagar. I get that Hagar was having the baby for Abraham and Sarah and did not want to give up the child. But, sending back to her abuser..... ! Just how good would it be for the child? The Bible has come to remind me of a Soap Opera. Oh and that's right; this is the same Abraham who is the father of all nations. I'll stop here because this is just too messed up. Another thought: So why does Yahweh need all these angels flying around verbally praising him. What an ego! Or is it a trace of narcissism?
@@MindShift-Brandon Also, I think that your breaking down people's desire for Heaven is great! As for many Christians the desire for Heaven is what keeps them hanging on to the whole Christianity package.
This highlights those early Christian developments such as the Gnostics who saw the Old testament God as being the Demiurge/Evil and the New testament God the God of Peace & Love. But as Christianity developed we took Satan to be the ruler of this world (after the Fall of Adam & Eve) and God the Father, the Redeemer, and the Sanctifier as the real God of the Universe.
Why would god need a counsel of angels to discuss things. Doesn’t he have omniscience, which means he already knows what he is going to think, decide and do in the future. Can god go against his own foreknowledge
The concept of God being omniscient comes later. In the earliest writings, there are several instances where God appears to not know what is going on. The first is in Genesis when God is looking for Adam and Eve but another is the story of the Tower of Babel when God checks out what is happening on earth and finds out humans are building a tower. In addition, in the earliest writings, there is clearly a divine council and YHWH is one of many gods. Even in Paul’s letters there is an acknowledgement of the existence of other gods but Christians are exhorted to abandon them and only worship YHWH. Dan McClellan addressed this: ua-cam.com/video/oyjcfksSZwM/v-deo.htmlsi=XK921ApWo8_DtgFn
@@OldMotherLogo yes, such rewriting are to be expected of a man made god rather than a real god with actual fixed attributes. Naturally as the centuries pass people re-write what their god can do to go along with changing expectations
God is innocent. It is nice to have counsel. The idea of him having counsel removes the idea of angels not having free will. Because it means he is discussing how things WILL GO. Rather than just doing whatever. Everything has free will. You just fail to listen. It is not gods job to make you listen.😭
@@greaterthan97 If God is discussing how things WILL GO then it means he did not already know. You can’t have it both ways - him being all knowing and him taking counsel. IF he already knows, what is the point of counsel? And if he is taking counsel, then he doesn’t already know.
Raised Roman Catholic, ten years under the tutelage of Ursuline nuns. So angels were my favorite imaginary friends! Taught I had my very own guardian angel (WOW!) And Michael was a kick-ass superhero (very jealous of the EIGHT kids in my class named Michael). Gabriel had a very cool trumpet and costume. And the wings were something I longed for. Point: Angels are fairy tales for children and childish adults. And you could at least chuckle every now and then - the whole idea of incorporeal (whatever that means) sycophants fluttering around is profoundly amusing.
The BIBLE, GOD, and JESUS CHRIST bring HONOR and ETERNAL LIFE and EXISTENCE on EARTH to HUMAN BEINGS Jehovah's Witnesses, SDAs, Mormons, Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Born Again Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, fanatics of all kinds of Religions, and Atheists who are unitedly claiming and asserting that GOD's Sovereignty and Jesus Christ's authority and teachings written in the BIBLE are nothing but lies, myths, fictions, fantasies, and fairy tales are obviously the same persons on earth who are unitedly opposed and against the BIBLICAL TRUTHS that - 1. The submissiveness of lowly, ordinary, kind, and respectful persons on earth to the authority of Jesus Christ in their obedience to what's written in Matthew 28: 18 will definitely bring them honor and GOD's favor and reward of ETERNAL LIFE and existence on earth without sufferings, pains, griefs sickness, and death as written in Revelation 21: 3, 4 2. The teachings of Jesus Christ about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" written in Luke 4: 43 and John 11: 25, 26 are the guarantee that loving, kind, considerate, and respectful persons on earth who died recently and thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Job, Naomi, Ruth, King David, Jesus Christ's Followers and disciples, and many others will all be RESURRECTED back to life in the right and proper time so they can happily and honorably live and exist on earth forever as citizens and subjects of the "KINGDOM of GOD" and fully enjoy the eternal love, kindness, goodness, generosities, compassions, favors, and blessings of GOD and his Christ for eternity under the loving and kind rulership, guidance, and protection of Jesus Christ as his GOD and Father's Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth as written in Revelation 11: 15.
Welcome! Thanks for being here. Curious to hear everyone’s thoughts on this one.
Thank you so much. Besides the main contradictions I picked up as I was in church, angels were the first topic I went outside of church to look into. The late Dr. Michael
Heiser was my gateway to so much more interesting topics that I felt the churches ignored. You cannot claim supernatural things of God but ignore and scoff the supernatural beings in the Old Testament. Have you seen Psalm 82? "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations."
Thanks for this topic, I didn't think too much of them as slaves at the time, but then again, it's nothing unusual since we are to be slaves of God and own slaves ourselves. It is consistent. Great video!! My true interest beyond human drama are the angels.
@@n.c.1201appreciate this level of feedback and input. Thanks!
Secondly, something that really peaks my interest with "satan" is the story of Adam and Eve. I don't believe that the serpent in Genesis is Satan because it is described as "more subtle than any beast of the field" Anyways, what makes me crazy is after God realizes they went against his orders: God speaks to the serpent first and says his punishment will be above all the cattle? and above every beast of the field? What does this "above" mean? He curses him to crawl on his belly, which means this is something new and worse than whatever he was doing before. He is cursed to eat dust... So he then mentions that his punishment is to put active EMNITY *between THEE AND THE WOMAN* which, the opposite means that there was something akin to a relationship of sorts between serpent and the woman. They had a relationship. We don't see woman speaking to man AT ALL. The next line, as punishment says that emnity will also be put between their SEED. Their offspring also will be made to despise one another. So I am really feeling this was a close relationship between serpent and woman. Would love to dive more historically into the innuendo that is probably 'heel' and 'head'. Next, the woman's punishment is to multiply her sorry and to MULTIPLY HER CONCEPTION and in sorrow she will now have children because, the next line, says as PUNISHMENT her desire will now be for man!! And her punishment is now that not only will her desire be directed toward man but he will rule over her. I bet you that woman had relationship with serpent but because man did nothing wrong except listen to his wife... now the woman's punishment is to no longer be allowed to have relations with the serpent (who, don't forget, told the truth... against God's lie...) and her punishment is to be subject under man because all he was doing was God's work up until the point he listened to the woman. Man gets away with a slap on the wrist compared to the serpent and woman. Anyways, this is only related to ANGEL *IF* you feel that Satan is the serpent. Otherwise, this is just a message about an insanely misunderstood and misrepresented passage. I would love to find more on this historically because I find the mythological parts of the Bible more fascinating than the human drama. 😂❤❤ Thanks for the videos, Brandon!! I really appreciate how you stick to the text.
@@n.c.1201
Nice and deep, excellent questions. Yeah, Brandon, those seem like a good deep dive topic, what do you think?
@@n.c.1201
We can deduce that Satan is not the devil just from the literal translation of the word satan (and a bit later ha-satan) - the accuser, not the evil guy. A prosecutor in court, an agent with a clear purpose, not endowed with malice. Unless you’re the one being prosecuted, then the perspective is different, though the role stays the same.
I have commented before, if god lost 1/3 of the angels in less than a week then why did he create humans in a worse environment? It’s like having a baby to save an abusive marriage and then being mad at the baby
Great comparison. 👍🏽
Love this!
It certainly calls into question just how great Heaven is if 1/3 of the inhabitants are trying to overthrow management.
@@soyevquirsefron990 well said
@soyevquirsefron990 do I hear an Amen? no, Heck no!
As a kid I always wondered what the fallen angels saw or realized about God that made them go, "nope, I'll take my chances."
Fr though, you think something that powerful would want to stay in nice cozy place, i need to know
Freedom. They saw freedom...elsewhere.
Well, in Hebrew, it tells you.
1.) Satan and Lucifer, if read in hebrew, are not the same. They are not interchangeable titles like water and agua. They are different like a channel and a tv.
2.) Lucifer is a mind-born son. An angel.
3.) Satan aka Coshek aka Tehmot aka Tiamat is the force of god not favoring/caring for/paying attention to something. It causes that thing to die, or begin to.
4.) Lucifer (Helia'El) 's job was to contemplate the WORTHINESS of god. He found, due to gods satanic nature of his subconscious, to be unworthy of a throne.
5.) God then displaces the blame by trying to basically claim that he and his subconscious (the Coshek) are not one in the same.
6.) Lucifer is called Satan because he begins to actively channel and embrace the satanic nature of god. The part beneath gods conscious awareness. Hence, why in Luciferianism, we dog pile on the concepts of
"there can be no religion higher than truth", and
"no one is aware of an unknown-unknown. Not even god"
The law of equivalent exchange.. etc.. even things which god cannot refute.
He became called the (senseless) accuser. Its a derogatory and downward title of "accuser". Like a guilty man saying the prosecutor "doesnt know what hes talking about" and "dont listen to him".
This whole war is about maintaining this gods transparently flawed nature. Lucifer merely reflects the behavior that god denies, right back at him. God basically swears he doesnt sound the way he does on a video recorder. He guilty. Period. And he must be punished for his crimes against living beings who didnt ask for any of this.
@@CorbinB-Rax that's an interesting comment
"If you have two choices but only one will cause you no harm so you only have one choice"
We don't really know if the choice doesn't cause harm. Even if it causes mental anguish, that's still harm. Or what if flying around screaming "HOLY! HOLY! HOLY!" for a few billion years makes your vocal chords feel like it's going to jump out of your throat and your wings feel like they are going to fall off? If 1/3 of your children flee from you, then some kind of harm was being caused even when they obeyed.
@@suicune2001 It's ok, the angels were made in such a way that they never get physically tired. Tired of god's bullshit? Well, that's a different matter.
Whoever made this nonsense up must have been high on something, and psychologically disturbed to begin with, anyway.
@pineapplepenumbra From what I've been told, they told me that there were times when the Israelites were captured by neighboring countries. They have suffered from trauma due to the wars and have plagiarized their stories from nations that captured them.
@@elmoworld850 Yes, that certainly sounds plausible. It's a mix of propaganda, poetry, myths and legends, and trying to make themselves feel better, one way or another.
And that is why you keep religion out of the government dear US 😜
I really like nonstampcollector’s portrayal of angels where they are constantly trying to stop him from doing insane stuff and make crazy commandments. “But Lord!”
Yes!! And Jeffrey on Darkmatter’s cartoons. He’s always like um lord are you really going to do that… 😂😂😂
Those are hilarious!
@@BluStarGalaxy yup.
@@missinterpretation4984 Jeffrey is the best! ❤❤
@@missinterpretation4984 So you designed the perfect place for him, to test him, and if he passes the test he will be rewarded by coming to the perfect place for him?
Yep.
😂😂😂
“God is not the author of confusion” and also, “then war broke out in heaven.”
@@tomaskey6844 I think almost everything can be debunked by this single sentence: God is not the author of confusion. However, I think that your comment shows the importance of reading books individually, as they were written, as a single book rather than a whole. Because it is all just rather silly.
@@n.c.1201 and thought sin and evil iz gawds kryptonite yet have a transformers war in da afterlife. Also also ( fear gawd iz beginning of wisdom ) also gawd ( for da fearful will share their place with others in hell) how does religious beliefs even exist az a thing if da creator iz outside of knowledge yet believers know everything bout da unknowable and not to be comprehend.
@@RjM777 ┐(ﾟ～ﾟ)┌ guz itz fun and also I'm part 🧬🇩🇪🧬 sow I talk a wired 4 sim reason olo
@n.c.1201 that is how you know that these books were written by men and only logically work if they were considered " individual books", each author building up on the theology , and in chronological order, as theology " progresses"
@@n.c.1201Apostle Paul was an Anticrust and an Author of Con-fusion and a Sarcastic Heister
I mentioned this last week but when I was little I asked my very Catholic grandfather if God loved the Devil. He said no of course not. I was confused and said, "I thought God loved everyone?" He said, "Yes, but not the Devil!"
Always special pleading for god
Well of course God loves the Devil. As a parent of a criminal child still loves him anyway. I fail to see what's confusing about this.
I was always confused with the devil cuz if God is all knowing, why did he even create Satan or the angels that left with him 🤔
@@MindShift-Brandon single-letter typo changes the meaning of the sentence 😬
@@oryx-iromainaspe1426 arguable satan is the non-criminal of the family
Angels are an unsurprising invention. Humans are a social species, so naturally we make our gods to be social species that have companionship.
Angles are the gateway drug to polytheism. Patron saints each for their realm
I could never around how all those 'ethereal' entities somehow have human fears, emotions, and vulnerabilities. Isn't it obvious it's just made up by mortals who ascribe all our qualities to, because all the authors are working within the limitations of their small experience and imagination
@@TonyLambregtsYep. In fact imo angels are just god's that got demoted and humans invented a new word for them.
@@ennuiblue4295 because christians think God is anthropmorphized in the bible as so that we can relate to them. So it's kinda what you said, except they think God still exists.
@@TonyLambregtsso is the character of Jesus, being "a son of god" and then trinity and Mary worship. There's plenty of polytheism in christianity.
Imagine being born into existence with sentience and your only purpose is to pass the butter.
I guess I would wabalabadubdub😂
As a child, I heard it said that God had no need to create any other beings as He was totally sufficient in Himself - creation of other beings was a demonstration of His love, to have other beings to care for
It seems it’s more ‘if a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound?’ If an Eternal, N-Dimensional, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Being has no one to worship It, does It exist?
Thanks for another thought-provoking presentation, Brandon
It does give question of why it needs to be reminded of this constantly.
@@CatDaddyGuitar Well, that just makes it sound insane.
@@Badficwriter Crazy how that works!
Endless existence is the biggest cruelty, so rather than endure it alone, God created other beings and cursed their souls with endless existence too, so that he is at least not alone.
Just my hypothesis 😂
@@KateeAngel lol I keep picturing Bruce Almighty when he's trying to make her love him 😂 "LOVE me.. LOVE ME!"
The Bible makes more sense reading God as just "Emperor". As in king or ruler of a federation of nations.
"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
Obi : only da sith deals an absolute.
@@coopersheldon394 Sounds like an Emperor.
Well, christians DO love to say "Christ is king", after all. Always thought of it as being rather strange, since "king" is not even the highest royal title one can have, so it's not really the biggest honor to be called that, y'know? You figure christians would only give him the highest praise, instead of settling down for less...
@@ravaniphoenix5431 yup. Wha bout LORD? they love saying Dat az well.
Why would an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God even need servants and advisors in the first place?
Omniegotistical?
It was never said that god was omnipotent omniscient and omnipresent in the bible. God is at human image.
@@Julia-me2wm; I actually like the idea of an imperfect god. If god isn't perfect, but is just trying their best to do a good job at god'ing, I think that's fine.
But, if they are supposed to be perfect, and the world turned out this way... then either something went terribly wrong, or they're just cruel.
We don't know what is going on the other side. God created everything means everything here.(I am also having deja vu right now. I kind of have noticed that the more I let God guide me the more deja vu I get. Its like deja vu is a sign that you are on a right path .) So you know, stuff happens.
@@gandalainsley6467; The way I figure, it could just as easily be possible that there ISN'T any other side. That it's just us, inventing and exchanging stories with one another.
I don't think it's the belief in god that bugs me nearly as much as the automatic ASSUMPTION that there's definitely a god. Maybe you're right, and god gives people Deja Vu, or maybe Deja Vu is something our brains just naturally do sometimes.
Honestly, the thing that unsettles me most about a lot of religious-types I meet is the complete and total certainty they have over things that none of us can possibly know. I don't see that absolute confidence as a good thing. People who 100% believe they are right are capable of some of the very worst things humans can do to one another.
Even when I was a kid I wondered why God created us just to have a relationship with when he already had the angels. I figured they must be pretty jealous. And it didn't seem like they had much of a self fulfilling existence. The word I guess I was always searching for was "slaves".
God must be moving too fast for even the angels to notice when he patches them up, and the reasons for which he does so. What do you think God is enslaving the angels to do?
My answer is we are the ones made in God’s likeness made for, by and through Jesus and at Jesus word. We are the ones created for Him by Him And in His likeness. We are the ones Jesus created to be with. Just like the animals could not satisfy Adam, and it was not good for the man to be alone, but Adam needed one in his own likeness. We are the ones made in Gods likeness for Him.
@@DavidStrchldIf we're made in god's likeness, and we're primates. Is god a huge primate?
@@andred7684 all is symbolic dont take it too literally
It will never be enough love for him.His mother abandoned him and now he is trying to fill that void
Making immortal beings without free-will made to endlessly praise it says a ton about God ngl.
Yeah, talk about a weak character to need praise and worship all the time. I couldn't imagine being that needy.
@@evilbarbie2160
_Exactly!_
It says a lot about people who invented such a god
@@KateeAngel
True.
@@KateeAngel
Agreed.
It seems nothing says anything about this God essence thingy , but everything ever written about Gods or goddesses say something about the desires, needs, wants, and dreams of whoever had something to do with creating their narratives.
one of the questions I ask Christians is if there was a rebellion in heaven once then what prevents it from happening again and they'll often tell me they won't want to rebel again when they've seen what will happen to the through the example of Satan but then that feels like they're living in fear and another question is, if an angel can become bad then why can't a demon become good? we've seen formally really bad people turn their lives around and make valuable contributions to society or is it once bad always bad when it comes to spirits
Excellent points!!
Its once bad always bad for the angels accorfing christians because they are immortal & once they fall, they stay fallen.
Its why they say humans can be redeemed to god cause we have a limited life & thus can be reborn/remade to fit gods standard after death, so long as you accept that jesus died & all that jazz
this is what hazbin hotel plays on its a good show truly recommend
The LORD has a special relationship with man. satan is very jealous of this relationship, and it is the LORD's choice to Love us more than satan even before he was cast out and Forgive us, something which satan can never have. Have you encountered anyone being jealous of another? satan is as jealous as he can be of man receiving frogiveness through the cross. This is where all jealousy comes from. God loves us more than satan, and he is jealous of the LORD's Charity.
@@coopersheldon394 _This is where all jealousy comes from_
So jealousy didn't exist before Jesus was crucified?
I just find it highly amusing to think of angels, enslaved to god's will for millennia, just deciding to defect for a little bit to "fraternize" with human women.
The top of those women’s heads were too much temptation when looking down. Lol. Even Paul tells women to cover their heads for the sake of the angels.
The 144,000 sealed from the tribes of Israel will not be familiar; unmarried is a higher calling. "And He answered and said to me, and I heard His voice: 'Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice. And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: "You should intercede" for men, and not men for you: Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children of earth, and begotten giants (as your) sons? And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die and perish. Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. But you were formerly spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling. And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them."
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
@@MindShift-BrandonI guess everyone likes a little head?
You can't "fraternize" with women. Fraternize is to brother to someone. You sororalize with women. (sister them)
Men belong to fraternities, women belong to sororities.
Two of the strongest arguments against god’s morality are slavery and the problem of suffering, of humans and even more so of animals (as aptly argued by Alex O’Connor). And this video is making the case for a pro-slavery god that much stronger.
Excellent content, as usual. Thank you, Brandon.
Thank you Boris!
"Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ." - those men who called themselves masters over slaves and were not the Lord's Perfect and only Begotten Son therefore sinned by claiming themselves masters. Therefore all who had slaves in America and called themselves masters of them sinned in the sight of the LORD, Amen.
@@coopersheldon394 Why? God condones slavery. They claimed they had a "God given right".
@@coopersheldon394aptly countered by 1 Peter 2:18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
@@coopersheldon394 I feel like this is similar to call no one Father. We can still call your father Father. It's just making the same point.
Ah this is much better than a sermon from church
Glad to hear it!
I agree I'm at work right now on Sunday. I'm on my lunch break watching Brandon's latest video on how angels are slaves and I prefer watching Brandon's videos over listening to church sermons But I also prefer being at work than being at church
@@thing1thing2themediamaniac43 "But I also prefer being at work than being at church"
Same here. I often work on Sundays, anyway, but try to have another day off during the week.
Annoyingly, that hasn't happened for a bit.
When I don't go to work Sundays I have it off I go to church with my family. Christianity is still very much a part of my identity outside of myself even though I no longer internally think of myself as A Christian. I don't know if I'll ever come out as a Former Believer to my parents or my Tea Party Friends I am trying to get my Tea Party Christians Friends to divorce themselves from Israel without trying to deconvert them It's time America divorced itself from Israel, Palestine, Ukrain and stop sending money to every foreign country and getting involved in their political affairs.
@@MindShift-Brandon I don't want you to go to hell
I’ve always been told that Angels couldn’t be saved because they weren’t humans, and only humans could be saved by the death of Jesus. But it’s hard to defend angels having no ability to be redeemed without resorting to simply God didn’t want them to be saved. What if Lucifer really wanted redemption but found out he will never be saved so that is why he is so Hellbent against God.
yes, its a silly and not well thought out excuse.
"What do I got to lose?"---Satan.
Interesting theory. According to Catholic theology, the reason for Lucifer's rebellion was because God made mankind with souls, which placed them higher in creation than the angels.
@@Charlotte_Martel That raises questions on the nature of angels, however. I do hear the distinction between soul and spirit, and perhaps angels only have spirit?
Though it still sounds similar to the Islamic interpretation, where Iblis [Lucifer], is a djinn, made of fire, whose disdain for humanity stems from humanity being made of dirt.
Thats also from a human perspective. Man made God like man
The concept of "freewill" in the Bible cannot work when you have an omniscient being creating everything from the start. A being that already knows the end from the beginning (determined) can't insert his influence in the life of someone who hands up an arbitrary prayer with supposed "freewill"...it's not going to change the outcome. There's no reason to pray except for obedience. Even the Bible says God knows what we need before we ask. It's pointless. in conclusion, he's a narcissist.
Even if it's only a character in literature, yes, a narcissist.
@@TonyLambregts Correct..lol...important to note
I with all honesty don't believe that the Bible is God's word, is men made library to control humanity... just look around all the religions in the world and is impossible that they are all correct. Every single one of them proclaim to be the right one lol. I was a Baptist Christian for over 20 years till 2022 when my child passed my eyes got wide open and I did soooo much research and come to a conclusion that the Bible is a men made library. I lot of the things made no sense to me but I always just stayed quiet and went with the flow till my baby passed I thought enough is enough
Great comment. It has also been brought up that this god has a perfect plan and prayers are asking god to change his perfect plan. If prayer is just saying god’s will be done as some Christians believe, it is just giving the acknowledgement that god is going to do what he is already going to do. So what is the point?
@@BluStarGalaxy Yes, another good point!
Off topic, I feel like god is a extreme example of “curbing our freedoms in the name of counter terrorism” or in this case countering sin
This is not too far off. A being with power like God's power who had a will to sin could create infinite evil. Preventing the creation of infinite evil justifies infinite “curbing our freedoms in the name of counter terrorism.”
There is plenty of evidence in the scripture that in Heaven we will be like Christ, with free action and infinite power. This is why God only allows those of good will to have eternal life. An omnibenevolent being could not allow the creation of infinite evil.
Religion was the government before the government existed...
@@cherylmcelveen2817perfectly said
@@cherylmcelveen2817 well said
Angels bailed on god.
Christians: “There’s no way true Christians would abandon Jesus!”
Sure.
LMAO! Nice. "They weren't REALLY angels, that's why they're called DEMONS" ...they'll have an answer, no matter how lame.
@AllUKLuv lol exactly.
@@Phoennix3 if their god can’t control its angels, how the hell can people say god is in control and he has a plan? What a joke, right?
I get what ur saying but Christians dont say this, muslims say this. They go talking about how great their religion is and say that everyone was born a muslim and then go on to say that anybody who leaves islam was never muslim to begin with
@@macewindu5804 Christians may not outright say this verbatim, but they elude to it with statements like "You were never a real Christian" and then quote 2 Corinthians 11...
All theistic religions have their version of someone" not getting it " and walking away.
I've had people tell me, and I was raised being told it, that God can't show himself to us because then we would lose our free will to be able to accept or not accept him, and since I grew up I was always *hands rapidly flail, pointing in a general direction* "angels and satan rejected!"
That’s so messed up. If anything god not showing himself to us actually removes our free will to accept him because we don’t even know if he exists, belief isn’t a choice after all.
God revealed himself to my family, well a spirit called by him. It wasn't God speaking, but some sort of spirit sent by him. Anyways, it gave us a message. When that happened I was 11 and my cousins were around the same age, I'm now 23. Even though they've experienced the work of God, they have turned to their own sinful desire, one of my cousins became a ho3 and another became a homosexual. Although they have seen the work of God, they still chose their own way. What I'm getting at is, if God showed himself or not, it wouldn't matter. Those who are his will follow him and those who are not will abandon him. God knows his people before he created existence, he knows who is his and who is against him before creation happened. Him showing himself won't change anything, I've experienced it.
@@isplash3s998 Nice fairytale
@@Khn_2102 oh damn u got me :/
@@isplash3s998so you lie. It’s fine, I suppose, you are not the only one here.
When anyone tries to convince you that God is all loving and can be trusted, just say, "But look at what he did to the angels."
What did he do to the angels? What are you referring to specifically?
@@AnHebrewChild He enslaved them. Listen to the video.
@@AnHebrewChild Why are you even here if not to listen to the video?
@@darrennew8211 Have you watched that video of Matt Damon appearing off to the side of the stage, eating an apple, that Jimmy Kimmel was on giving out awards, like he was clueless to what was happening? Yeah, that's what's happening here.
@AnHebrewChild
You seriously decided to skip the entire point of the video to make this comment?
Your video is better than sunday morning in the church.
I sure hope so lol. Thanks!
As a lifelong non-believer, I've always understood angels to be real rather than metaphorical.
Yup
I’m sorry? How to you square that circle?
@@TravelsTTG Easy. I've always understood angels to be meant literally. Even though I don't believe any of it, I know the bible means them to be understood as real.
Just like I know that Harry Harrison's The Stainless Steel Rat is fiction, but the titular character isn't meant to be figurative within the context of the story.
They talk about religious people being concerned with free will because the lack of Free Will means that followers are just robots. Never realizing the inherent contradiction in that statement by questioning their own beliefs by questioning their own beliefs. But one thing that never gets talked about is why did God create actual metal robots to serve man instead of angels?
"But one thing that never gets talked about is why [didn't] God create actual metal robots to serve man instead of angels?
Actual metal robots would be _material beings._ Angels are made out of spirit, whatever that is. It's properties are unknowable to science.
Humans don’t have free will either
@@wolfofthewest8019 ....and this omnipresent being would be able to create Spirit bots out of the same unknown substance.
I love this topic so much. To me it shows a glaring weakness in church doctrine but damn its fascinating. Firstly I heard that angels cannot take physical form and cannot reproduce, but then we have the watchers coming down and mating with women. Then I heard there are only male angels but then there was a story in the bible of 3 female angels. The early church fathers also believed that the nephilim were the offspring of angel and men, but slowly this changed to the sons of seth mating with the daughters of cain. But of course it should be known that ultimately the idea of angels was not original to Judaism but was in ancient mesopotamia and Zoroastrianism.
You don’t even understand just repeating nonsense
The angels only existing to worship him is such a weird concept. I remember questioning it and being told that he was so big and powerful that he deserved it. It wasn’t until I deconstructed that I realized exactly how fucked that idea is.
The concept of worship is weird.
According to judaism angels don't have ""consciousness"" they are god's avatar
Servitors
"I remember...being told that he was so big and powerful that he deserved it."
To worship or glorify God means to do good.
To worship God is to do as God wills. If God is good, then God's will is to do good. Thus to do God's will is to do good. The angels only exist to do God's will, which is to worship him, which to do good.
@@wolfofthewest8019 that’s a cute way to redefine the problem away, but little more than word games. Unless doing good is standing around for eternity repeating “holy, holy, holy” endlessly.
When the angels are saner than God
😈 : from ma point of view da jedi are evil and you are gawd.
Angels rebel because they are anvious, bud says they are saner than god😂
@@Hughjanus09 so?? Wha you even saying??
Your definition sane is based on your context, by this logic:
Saner = less attributes of Christian God
Note: For people who don't understand attributes of Christian God, I recommend reading Attributes of God in Christianity in Wikipedia, before replying to me.
12:23 When I learned this in Sunday school it never made sense to me. I remember thinking if god can be so cruel to his own angels why would he spare me. I felt bad for satan and thought god really abandoned him. I realized at a young age my inner skeptic had to keep quiet. I didn’t want to end up like satan just for questioning blatant contradictions.
I still deal with that even though I am still deconstructing!
This was a fun one. Loved mythology. If I look at the Christianity the same way as Greek or Roman mythology it could be fun. Too bad many Christians try force this myth on the rest of us as if it were the truth.
Yup the baggage ruins most of the fun. But still so interesting
Everyone who has believed in money in times past has died believing in it. Even Rockefeller _was_, Muhammed Ali _was_, yet I am alive and healthier than ever. Too many came to me with regret saying they had everyhting they wanted in life, became diagnosed with cancer with two years left to live, and said that after doing horrible things they are now struck with the reality that they have to face God. "it was all for nothing" - a wealthy actor of gunsmoke who had a huge family, right before he died. "so much straw" - a theologian commmenting on his work who then died being lost in the catholic church. You can't take money with you, but "Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." So although Faith saves, faith without works is dead; no point in one saying they believe and continuing to work iniquity.
@@coopersheldon394 About that "Satan believes God exists" thing...I think there is a difference between believing in something's existence and believing IN someone. I believe my husband exists, but I don't have faith in him anymore, though I still have love for him.
@@coopersheldon394 Some people get scared...given there's no "god" to face, just an appeal to fear.
Yes! I agree!
For a long time I have thought that the idea of God wanting to be worshiped was weird. Does God have a problem with self-esteem?
LOL apparently, considering he rages like a child and demands to be obeyed. Narcissists hate themselves deep inside hahaha
@@greenleaf239 I tend to think God wants to be worshipped in the same way a mob boss wants to be respected. If you don't have enough of that kind of respect, you can't get others to do what you want them to do.
Yes, yes he does
@@chewxieyang4677 I see it as respecting what he can do to you if you don't kiss his a**. That's fear. " Fear the Lord" is exactly that.
No, to worship God is to do God's will, and since God's will is good, to worship God is to _do good._ That idea is repeated throughout the bible. God repeatedly makes the point that sacrificing animals and prayers to him, while certainly nice, is not the kind of worship he wants -- those are things we do to please ourselves, not God.
To truly worship God, stop and talk to a homeless person like they are a human being, offer them some cash, and let them know that they are loved. Visit a dying person in the hospital and hold their hand, hear their stories, and remember them. Take on the responsibility of raising a child who has no parents. Mediate peace between two people at odds with each other. Smile at a child, pet a puppy, watch a sunset and say "Good job, God. That was a beautiful one."
That's how you worship God. By loving God, loving his creation, and loving each other.
"God respects free will"
The Angels, people whose hearts were hardened, how human brains work (Alex O'Connor and many more have explained the determinists or for some compatibilist position) or the whole god gives up on disbelievers, therefore, their hearts are no longer able to gonna be able to accept the Lord (Some legit say god wants nonbelievers to not go to heaven without directly saying). Free will is such a copout to absolve God of any responsibility
Plus Satan is a blame shifting target.
@@abstraction6212 Yep. God is to thank for everything good, buuuut... satan is the one to blame for everything bad? What does that leave us with, then? Boring grey choices that don't actually have any important effect, like "will I drink pepsi or fanta today?"!? Free will is a joke.
@@ravaniphoenix5431 and then the book of job tells us: "Wisdom cannot be found in the land of the living" looking at the verse knowing how evil Jehovah is, that verse comes out as egotistical, narcissistic, petulant and at the bottom of it all, Pretentious, that Gods word is the ONLY way to be good. Yet folks like Confucius, Epicurus, Zeno of Citium, and Shurupak, all have practical realistic advice on how to be a good guide for one's life, made by mortals who existed centuries before Jesus. the verse alone also shows Yaweh is that desperate to be the center of attention and to stay relevant.
God didn't just harden pharohs heart, God harden the heart of himself.
God violates adam to make eve and god tried to break and coherse Lilith to be with adam how adam wanted her to be which was against herself, her will, and her dignity.
@@ravaniphoenix5431 here is something you should consider. If you were deceived, you wouldn’t be held responsible for something whether it be a scammed into something or in some cases crime. How come with Satan you’re still guilty if you’re deceived by him? Not only that but god just allows it. Funny how people say atheism is illogical but when you point out original sin they’d do anything to absolve god of responsibility even though god could’ve just not have sin enter the world.
A kinda silly note about species: In my understanding, some species can interbreed but the offspring are sterile. Horse + donkey = sterile mule. And interestingly, the offspring of a lion and a tiger, a liger, is sterile, but is also a giant! (A genetic malfunction causes them to grow much larger than even the largest tiger.) So THAT's why the angel + human offspring were giants. I guess we're lucky they were also sterile? But they had to be destroyed in the flood after all. Divine mercy and all.
They weren't sterile and some of their bloodline survive the Deluge, with their descendants becoming the Anakim of Canaan.
Though the claim that the Nephilim are the children of the fallen angels is a traditional belief not actually supported by the text. Essentially all theories of Satan and the Fallen Angels relies on texts outside of scripture. An alternate theory that the Nephilim were the descendants of Cain is equally possible and has support in other Jewish mystical texts.
how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? zero, because they only exist in your mind😅
Why in my 55 years as a Christian I never thought about this?
Maybe because all the focus was on Jesus and all the rest had no importance.
But you hit the nail on it head. 👍
The BIBLE, GOD, and JESUS CHRIST bring HONOR and ETERNAL LIFE and EXISTENCE on EARTH to HUMAN BEINGS
Atheists, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and fanatics of all kinds of Religions
KNOW
and are fully aware they are unitedly opposed and against the BIBLICAL TRUTHS that -
1. The submissiveness of lowly, ordinary, kind, and respectful persons on earth to the authority of Jesus Christ in their obedience to what's written in Matthew 28: 18
will
definitely bring them honor and GOD's favor and reward of ETERNAL LIFE and existence on earth without sufferings, pains, griefs sickness, and death as written in Revelation 21: 3, 4
2. The teachings of Jesus Christ about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" written in Luke 4: 43 and John 11: 25, 26
are the guarantee
that
loving, kind, considerate, and respectful persons on earth
who
died recently and thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Job, Naomi, Ruth, King David, Jesus Christ's Followers and disciples, and many others
will
all be RESURRECTED back to life in the right and proper time so they can happily and honorably live and exist on earth forever as citizens and subjects of the "KINGDOM of GOD"
and fully enjoy the eternal love, kindness, goodness, generosities, compassions, favors, and blessings of GOD and his Christ for eternity
under the loving and kind rulership, guidance, and protection of Jesus Christ as his GOD and Father's Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth as written in Revelation 11: 15.
Here to help! Thanks, man!
You've never thought about this because the entire argument is silly and would only ever occur to a fool who hates God and is wasting his life using his brain to spin up stupid theories to justify his hatred, instead of doing something productive.
Hi Brandon!
@@wolfofthewest8019 can you clear up what you are saying? How can someone hate something that the person has no way the know if it exists or not? Are you saying that they hate the concept of god?
@@wolfofthewest8019found the 🐑
The ancient Hebrews created their whole mythology around the maxim, "Shit rolls downhill." When certain Greeks adopted Judaism, then quickly refashioned it into Christianity, everything else could change, but this maxim remained. It is probably because absolute hierarchy is what made the religion so attractive to them.
You made a great point. Why does this god even need angels? He can do everything he wants on his own and he doesn’t require them.
A couple reasons. He wants individuals around him 24/7 telling him how awesome he is. It is not enough to know himself how great he is, he needs others to tell him also. Next, ordering the angels to do mundane tasks that he could easily accomplish on his own. It’s all about power. Ex: A slave master could easily get a glass of water or put on his shoes himself but ordering his slave to do it is a show of control and says, “I can ask for literally anything and you will have to do it. I am the boss, I own you.”
Very well said! Power issues and need and want should not be synonymous with perfection
@@MindShift-Brandon Thanks for response. I edited the comment after posting to correct a few things and add a bit more. You are right. A perfect god wouldn’t do this.
This makes me think that God don't is narcissistic at all. But have Inferiority complex.
God needed angels like any non-omnipotent, non-omniscient, and non-benevolent being needs helpers... Not the original writer's fault that the follow-up stories changed their god into such an incoherent mess... right?
@@rcktneo,
Malignant Narcissism, requires the individual to have an Inferiority Complex though...
My wife just told me I better not be watching mindshift without her. I guess I will have to wait for her to get in here.
Thanks as usual!
Thanks so much for the support!
Even if that thing did exist it is completely evil and unworthy of any worship. A powerful being that needs to be worshipped and needs servants is insanity.
Mindshift and Rationality Rules would be the dream team of counter-apologetics
Demonic power at work! Satan has these two in deception
I have had these exact thoughts. That's why, when I was a Christian, I was praying for Demons and Satana, because, of course, I wasn't fond of the idea of eternal suffering, and I felt much empathy towards the Demons. And during my times of doubt one of the recurring questions that had me doubting the "ultimate goodness" of Yahweh would indeed be the description of Angels as great, mighty and much more perfect than humans, heavenly beings, who are at the same time bound to praise their father for all eternity and basically have no life of their own. Either you have some freedom, but you are hated and doomed to be bound once more by your master in the future (fallen Angels and Satana), or you have no freedom and nothing but eternal servitude to the narcissistic and cruel Middle East god of war and storms (obedient Angels).
However, there is one step further to go, and I think you could cover it and it would be just awesome, @MindShift-Brandon . What is the meaning of existence according to the Abrahamic teachings? And by that I mean the reason for existence of anything rather than nothing, the reason for the first thing to appear, be it spiritual or material. Not just the meaning of an individual's life, or an Angel's eternal life, but the meaning of the Universe itself. And the Abrahamic answer is: "Glory of God".
Glory of god. It is not that Abrahamic god would create anything out of immense love, happiness and desire to share it with somebody, so he would create the living Universe with many inhabitants, like a passionate writer who loves their stories and characters or a human playing tamagochi or a similar fluff-friendship-comfort videogame. It is Abrahamic god creating everything to escape loneliness, lack of completeness, to compensate for his many complexes and have lesser beings suffer and worship him for his pleasure, like a cash-grab writer who does not care for anything but profits or an annoyed human (me after work, for example) playing a videogame to relieve the stress by destroying something not really valuable to you (enemies in videogames are created to be destroyed, and god created gentiles or humans/Angels who could rebel against him to... *wink*) in an FPS, RPG, RTS or, ironically, god simulator.
I believe it could be an even more powerful argument, because it actually envelopes many other arguments in it, including human beings suffering, free will et cetera, Angels suffering, free will et cetera and so on, this is why I try to flesh it out as much as my imagination and cognitive and logical abilities allow.
To glorify God
I kid you not, when I was like in my teen years, I had wondered that “what if Jesus forgave Lucifer?” And I ask the question of Quora, people constantly said he wouldn’t because they already saw god or whatever. Not only is that not fair, but this implies that these angels that they worshiped years on end, get no forgiveness even though he not only watched it happen but KNEW this would happen (if we’re giving him the all knowing part)
@@FireFoxGaming_ according to the Bible…lucifer and his followers commited the unforgivable sin “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” in other words, Lucifer and his followers knew fully well who God is in a way that us humans do not and cannot in this life. He tried to surpass Gods will and was cast out for it. Lucifer and his angels are not forgiven because they don’t want to be forgiven. They do not want to repent. It’s like a rebellious teenager that runs away from their parents and never returns.
@@Sungroove in that case God knew exactly what he was doing when creating Lucifer/Helel. he knew when a war would happen, he knew when he was gonna rebels and so forth. Hell when he made humans he said they would be higher than angels. Imagine worshipping this god since forever since aeons and then suddenly “oh! Let’s create people! They be higher than the angels even though I give them free will and the possibility to commit blasphemy, and I’ll know who is doing what, who is thinking what, and who is saying what! Man giving them free will is so nice!” I mean again that seems super unfair. especially considering that Helel wanted his angels to be higher than people and given a little more love, which makes sense why he would run away as well. Christianity states it was his pride and ego, Lucifarianism states it was to help humanity in a way, there is a bunch of reasons and honestly if we go into dept from different branches to different beliefs entirely we would get who the 7 princess are as people.
God is "merciful" unless you are an angel. To be fair this god of mercy lacks that attribute in other ways as well.
he is merciful to us. who knows? maybe he's not to angels because they made their choice not out of ignorance like us. they are fully knowledgeable in what would happen
@@kirylspence1190 New problem for you: that is not a loving thing to do. So is your God not a loving one? Because he doesn't sound loving or merciful.
@@kirylspence1190Us Humans are like newborn babies compared to Angels. God has mercy on us because, like children we are ignorant of the ways of life and the universe. While Angels knew from their very creation.
@@DannyS177New problem for you. If God kept forgiving them while they keep doing evil you would say: "God os forcing them to stay"
@@DannyS177 don't know what you're not getting. The Bible never even says he loves the angels the way he loves us. So it's not a problem
I’m 74 and never have I heard this take on angels before. I had to pause your video many, many times just to think about your points. I’ll expect I’ll have to come back to this video. This is a very thought provoking argument.
I wrote a God program once. It didn't do much, it just kept thanking me for writing it!
I'm thinking of the Jeffrey angel from Darkmatter's videos.
His voice is so funny. "But God . . ." 😅
I love his little cannabis loin cloth😂
Yeah!😂
@sbnwnc 😂
@@trent_king😂
One thing I never understood when I was a Christian was why there was so much confusion about Genesis 6 and if Angels were really having sex with humans and having children, why would God even allow that? It’s just insane to me that people read that in the Bible and are just fine with it.
He allows everything to happen good ,bad and ugly .They Christianity seems to be okay with that
God created 100 million slaves, and he made humankind as slaves to tend his garden and rule over other things while being ruled over by God. What love.
Earth = Garden
Look at Humanity doing without God
Overlook immorally? Probably.
Love is chemical X. God not real. By this logic, you must remove these two because it's unnecessary:
Fix your comment: humans birth 100 million slaves, and they made humankind as slaves to tend their garden and rule over other things while being ruled over by human. What love.
God isn't real therefore it's removed and/or replaced by logical cause and effect.
If you disagree with my fix, then you're neither thinking realistic nor understand logical cause and effect.
13:35 this is basically how the variety of non-choices in my high control family felt, before I went no contact with my parents. My dad is a very imposing figure, and our family basically operates on dysfunctional relationship dynamics. When I’ve talked about how I felt like I didn’t have choices, my dad has said that he hasn’t ever stopped us from picking anything.
But when the difference in support and approval between the things he wanted us to do, and the things he didn’t, was so big, was it really a choice?
Was it really a choice when my dad gave me the passive aggressive cold shoulder and silent treatment FOR A MONTH because I bought a gaming laptop instead of a MacBook of some kind with my own money?
Man, I feel you on this. My dad stopped talking to me for 2 years over not going to a freaking Xmas eve party. My mother hasn't spoken to me in 20 years. Parental pressure is not a choice. Love the name, btw lol
Thank you for covering this topic! This issue has bothered me for a long time. When I was around 5-7 years old, I asked about the angels, demons, and Satan in relation to free will and salvation. I was told that all beings were given free will, but that angels lost their free will (and I suppose demons as well?) after the war in heaven, as they could no longer be trusted with free will combined with their angelic power. I was told this was the reason God went on to make humans, a being lesser in power who could not create such a catastrophic event such as heavenly war and demons just by exercising their free will. I remember thinking a lot about that when I was small, about how the angels who fought alongside God were punished for what the angels-turned-demons did, with their free will being stripped of them. I remember also wondering if angels resented us the way demons did, but couldn’t express that, as they basically did have minds capable of nonconformist thoughts anymore. I felt bad for them, and for the demons who (when I asked about it) had no chance of salvation, even with the death of Christ. I also remember wondering why Satan and the demons continued to fight a losing battle in the same way it was written out that they would. Hadn’t they been around long enough to have heard Revelation discussed over and over again? I was told three possible reasons for this by different people- that 1) they did not possess free will anymore and existed in a determinist system like the angels and so could not change what they were destined to do, 2) that they knew they were in a losing battle but were so full of hate and anger towards God and towards humanity that they bitterly continued on to lead astray as many humans from God as possible- I like to consider this the “sore loser theory”, & 3) God makes it so demons and Satan cannot hear or read anything related to their demise - which is a huge cop out that opens up more questions than answers.
When I was in middle school I suddenly because terrified of heaven, as I had read enough of the Bible to realize some things. Heavens whole existence is dependent on Gods creation praising him for all eternity. Not only that, you love doing that and want nothing else, meaning who have been reduced to the mental state of an angel. I was also told we could not feel sad or any other negative emotion in heaven (“He will wipe every tear from their eyes”) which only emphasized what I already suspected about free will being stripped upon entry to heaven. I was told I will not miss or pity my loved ones burning in hell, and in fact I would praise God for his just punishment of them. For awhile I started to come up with a theory that free will leads to suffering, and the only beings to be left with free will at the end of days would be sinners in hell. This made sense, until I was told that those in hell would never feel sorry for themselves and instead accept their punishment as just, and that despite hell being eternal that the tortures of hell would never become mundane or seem lesser in terms of pain. Also, that the real torture of hell was the absence of Gods divine love, presence, and salvation. All of this suggests that God rewires the mind of all who die to no longer be able to access free will, and this is regardless of their afterlife destination.
That is exactly the thing. The balance is not adding up.
Being exempt for the glory of god into eternity of suffering, just because you have not been created good enough, because an omnipotent god would know what will be sown as he makes it, truly shifting the "responsability" to it's creation and not to him. So not omnipotent and not all good/loving/fair.
And for 1 extremely short lifetime while nothing gets corrected properly by this god, eternity of suffering can await. That does not make sense.
The effects of the fire are forever, but the fire itself is not
The wicked end up as just ash
It’s called the second death for a reason
When we die, our soul dies with it
There is neither Mary, nor grandmother, nor saint or apostle in Heaven atm
The dead in Christ sleep until the first resurrection upon his Second Coming
The damned are revived after and then are burned into ash
Once the lake of fire has immolated the fallen angel, his beast, his false prophet and his followers then the flame itself will be no more
@@desmonides Human's creativity and imagination is truly a remarkble thing to behold.
What came first? The chicken or the egg?
What came first? The god(s) or humanity?
"The dead in Christ sleep until the first resurrection upon his Second Coming"
Yeah, just like the Jews are still waiting for their "Messiah" and Muhammad already sees Jesus as just one of the prophets.
I'm sure that if people want to make a good story, they will have to connect some dots to make things work.
First you have biblical claims, followed by interpretations and then speculations thereof to make it all look more real, but that only seem to work best when certain assumptions are taken as truth to begin with. An example if "accepting" there is a god. That gives authority of things said. So less questioning is required or invited to be done. A bubble afraid of needles that can pop it.
@@Rain-Dirt For those who believe, no explanation is necessary
For those who believe not, no explanation will suffice
@@desmonides An interesting thought, for sure :) but I can not align myself entirely with it.
Because during my decades as a believer I did look for explanations, albeit (without really knowing it) within the framework of the religion. Meaning that - as many other "apologists" still do - we start with the religion with the goal to end with the religion. Explanations were necessary and plenty sufficed since it seemed to "work" within the framework. People like Kent Hovind and other apologists who put effort in trying to explain the Bible from a "scientific" perspective came up with a lot of ideas which seemed true at the time for me.
When I for many different reasons broke through that framework, a lot of new explanations arised that not only made waaaay more sense, thus sufficed (more), but also being content with not having an answer to everything, sufficed as well. That does not mean that there is a possibility that everything in the Bible is true. There is simply no way.
What shifted is the way of looking at the Bible. Everything written in there must come from somewhere in one form or another in ways that would be typical for humans to describe events and religious claims/visions. That is why the story of f.e. Moses or Genesis is still very much intriguing. First as a believer there was the question to what can we find that proves it happened. Then as a non-believer it was what evidence can we find that explains how it got shaped into the story we know of today.
Proving f.e. that Cannanites existed is not proving their god was real, but it can shed a light on the Bible as them having a rival god or gods. How would a rival people have dealth with this? How was life back then? etc
Saying that a believer would not look for an explanation in search of strengthening the faith is not true.
Saying that no explanation will suffice as a non believer, is also not true.
It also depends a lot on the individual.
Shifting responsibility? You mean. Free Will???
Brilliant, Brandon! Well done
Thanks so much!
The butter robot in Rick & Morty came to mind🤔
Same
It’s interesting to see how the God narrative has changed over time. Now, the emphasis is on how “loving” God is. It’s like God is whatever the current generation of believers want him to be.
The evolution of God
by tiny increments.
One day in the future he may be as advanced as a neanderthal.
angels are like the "i have no mouth and i must scream" type torture. imagine how terrible an existence that would be. once again satan is the good guy
The BIBLICAL AUTHORITY and TEACHINGS of JESUS CHRIST bring HONOR and ETERNAL LIFE and EXISTENCE on EARTH
GOD KNOWS
that thousands of years ago, Jesus Christ was hated, insulted, dishonored, tortured, and murdered
by
arrogant, cruel, merciless, and deceitful persons
who
were violently opposed and against his Sovereignty and commandments and his Christ's authority and teachings about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead"
GOD KNOWS
that thousands of years and nothing has changed, just the same.....
his favor and reward of ETERNAL LIFE and existence on earth without sufferings, pains, griefs, sickness, and death as written in Revelation 21: 3, 4
is still
NOT for arrogant, cruel, merciless, and deceitful persons on earth
but
ONLY for lowly, ordinary, kind, and respectful persons
who
honor Jesus Christ as their loving, kind, and merciful Master and Heavenly King
and obey his teachings too about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" written in Luke 4: 43 and John 11: 25, 26.
GOD KNOWS
that all human beings will just return to dusts after their deaths just like the animals as written in Ecclesiastes 3: 19, 20
but
he knows too
that
he will not let all the loving, kind, considerate, and respectful persons on earth
who
died recently and thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Job, Naomi, Ruth, King David, Jesus Christ's Followers and disciples, and many others to remain as worthless and useless dusts on earth forever,
instead,
he will let Jesus Christ RESURRECT them back to life in the right and proper time so they can happily and honorably live and exist on earth forever as citizens and subjects of the "KINGDOM of GOD" or His Kingdom
and fully enjoy his and his Christ's eternal love, kindness, goodness, generosities, compassions, favors, and blessings for eternity
under the loving and kind rulership, guidance, and protection of Jesus Christ as his Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth as written in Revelation 11: 15.
not sure about satan being a good guy either, sure he went agaisn't the said "Good" omnipotent being, but satan also wants to hurt people and make them do terrible things with each other, the not so good type of "freedom" you would wish in a kind of society.
It’s Satan not an angel?
@@katiebarber407 I'm pretty sure the guy who wants you to do batshit crazy stuff isn't the good guy either.
@@waqiavaldez satan is an angel
You listed God’s faults but left one out. You said that reading the Bible lead to believing that God was, “unjust, unfair, unloving”. The thing you left out was “unreal”. People who believe that the Bible is a true depiction of the creator and creation of the Universe, believe in a tiny God. They believe that barely literate iron age people, who didn’t know the world was round, that the Earth revolves around the sun, nor the vast size and complexity of the Universe or maybe, Multiverse, nor the atom, could somehow accurately describe all of existence. The Bible describes a small god, one who is subject to human jealousy’s, cares about what certain people eat, or whom they love and how. The Bible says we were created in God’s image. Instead, the writers created a god in our image.
"Maybe they're just robots."
*looks up etymology of 'robot'*
Ouch. Not helping.
It’s with biblical studies like that’s makes it hard for me to view Satan’s rebellion as inherently evil. Of I course I’m perfectly willing to grant that yes he’s the grand evil and not anything that should be emulated. That still doesn’t mean God is still the good guy because even in heaven there’s still trouble; such factions on edge with each other, descriptions of what we can call inequality and not to mention god’s actions and philosophy qualifies him as a despotic ruler.
Why does an all-powerful beinG need a Guardian for hiS throne? Because that was what I always heard.
Satan : from ma point of view da jedi are evil gawd.
Why exactly is satan evil? His worst offence is standing up to a dictator. Even when describee by those on the side of god, satan seems like a much likable character.
@@tangerinetangerine4400
1) when you ask a Christian they are unable at any circumstance are capable of perceiving of him as a hypothetical good, let alone perceive any action by god as potentially evil so it’s just a bone for meeting them half way.
2) let’s picture a bully beating everyone up, and everyone knows his character which is god and later someone punches him in the face. It’s not impossible for someone with virtue of doing it, but that’s not the default thing to assume for it’s perfectly possible some other bully trying assert his dominance.
3) regardless his a fictional character therefore has the potential to be portrayed however you want: a hero, a lover, a joke, a tyrant and/or cocktail of them or none of them.
@@tangerinetangerine4400 That kind of ignores all the times Satan hurts people like Job.
And again we see how the reference to "angels" shows Christianity for the polytheistic religion it actually is. Angels are the LEAST of the lesser gods of Christianity - the dozen archangels have them beat, just for a start.
Christianity is a polytheistic religion based on the primitive and barbaric belief in human sacrifice.
For a deep dive into the angels, I recommend the book, God's Monsters by Esther Hamori. They are terrifying.
Adding to my list. Thanks!
Doesn't that book talk about vengeful spirits and such. Yeah, definitely non-nightmare fuel there, lol. I need to finish it but cool so far.
@@gamingwithmaya502 god's hitmen
On the Nature of Biblical Monsters:
"The Bible is teeming with monsters. Giants tromp through the land of milk and honey; Leviathan swims through the wine-dark sea. A stunning array of peculiar creatures, mind-altering spirits, and supernatural hitmen fill the biblical heavens, jarring in both their strangeness and their propensity for violence-especially on God's behalf" - God's Monsters
Traditional view of angels is they are in no way fluffy messengers.
No matter how many middle aged women with a bangle fetish try to insinuate otherwise.
14:31 - “gotta help a donkey talk”. 😂😂😁. Brandon, you are insanely funny. Just love your wit!
Lol thank you!
I haven't found any consistency among Protestants as to whether angels have free will or not.
It used to be (around 20ish years ago) that the standard seemed to be "angels don't have free will". The reasoning is that if angels had free will, then the Christian god would have no reason to make humans. Humans supposedly exist to praise the Christian god in a meaningful way (ie "praise from pre-programmed robots is meaningless") so if angels already do that... what do humans contribute? What is the point in even making humans if there's already free-willed sentient beings to rule over and choose or not choose the Christian god. Ergo, angels do not have free will and it's only humans and the Christian god who does. But that raises the problem of Satan and all the fallen angels being _intentionally made defective and sin-inciting,_ which would make the Christian god the original propagator of sin.
Nowadays it seems like the standard is "angels do have free will"... but then... "free will" *is the apologetics justification for the existence of sin.* So even non-rebel angels must necessarily sin if that's true. Did angels have to sacrifice animals in Old Testament times to atone too? Did Jesus' crucifixion cover angels? Or... do they just get auto-expelled as demons with no chance of forgiveness? And why did angels not get the Garden of Eden treatment like humans did? What even is the purpose of creating two different species of free willed beings to run through the Christian god's rat maze reality? And if angels have free will, then clearly divine hiddenness can't use the "it'd affect free will" excuse anymore - 'cause supposedly 1/3 of angels chose not-the-Christian-god (or just Satan did, either way, examples exist).
They're kinda damned whichever way they go on that issue. Both are actively problematic for the structure of the narrative.
Then again, Christianity seems to have a lot of those kinds of circles to square (for example: if obtaining knowledge of good and evil explicitly makes humans _more like_ the Christian god, how is that sinful? If it's just the disobedience - even though it was to a lie - then the Christian god's morality is just whatever his subjective whim is and has nothing to do with the actual result of the action itself. If it's the becoming more like the Christian god that's sinful then doesn't that make the Christian god the most sinful, since the sin is literally just becoming more like him? And for those who count the Christian god's comments as not a lie because eating the fruit was "spiritual death", how is becoming more like the divine "spiritual death"?).
You said it. Either option still puts god in the dog house.
do you have an author about theology for both of your opinions? You say "Christianity" but it seems more like your friend bob and his church and people who are not inclined in intellectual knowledge such as this.
You can have free will and not sin for example, i do not know why you say they must necessarily sin if that's true. Now let's say they sin, then that means they are rebelling . Hence a non rebelling angels with free will exist, a rebelling angels with free will exist, a rebelling angel without free will could not even exist, a non rebelling angel that sins cannot exist, a rebelling angel that sins exists.
That's standard belief for hundred of years but then the following of your reasoning rests on a bad presupposition.
@@toonyandfriends1915 It's literally the position of most Christian apologists. As an example: Mike Winger uses it to justify keeping people in Hell forever - supposedly the mere fact that they are conscious means they _will_ continue to sin, so the punishment in Hell supposedly isn't infinite punishment for finite sins but rather continuous punishment for continuous sins, according to Winger. So opening with an attempt to demean other people, not your best play.
You're also essentially arguing that it's possible for a free willed being to require no salvation, which is actively contrary to most of the New Testament. Worse, you're arguing that beings that live on longer timescales than humans are _more_ likely to _not_ sin, which is silly.
And playing definition shenanigans with what counts as a "rebelling" angel doesn't negate the fact that it's possible to sin without meaning to, and so the definition of "rebellion" you have to adopt there to justify that black and white position also becomes absurd.
Claiming something is a "standard belief for hundred of years" doesn't mean anything if it doesn't make any kind of consistent sense, that's just an appeal to tradition. If it's possible for angels not to sin, then it's possible for humans not to sin. The Bible says it's not possible for humans not to sin, ipso facto the same is true of angels - whether they want to or not. And if you want to claim that they're "perfect beings" and that's why they don't sin then a. that means the ones that fell were made imperfect intentionally (so the Christian god wanted them, and also humans, to sin), and b. it means perfect beings are incapable of certain choices and are therefore not free willed.
And as a side-note: even if it were just "my friend bob and his church" (which it's not), trying to claim Christians don't say something by saying that it might "just" be a whole church of people you want to think of as dumb saying it is also actively contradictory. If a whole church says it, it's something Christians say - even if you, in all your enlightened traditional wisdom, do not agree with them.
@@Zahaqiel
"As an example: Mike Winger uses it to justify keeping people in Hell forever - supposedly the mere fact that they are conscious means they will continue to sin, so the punishment in Hell supposedly isn't infinite punishment for finite sins but rather continuous punishment for continuous sins, according to Winger. So opening with an attempt to demean other people, not your best play."
Now, after opening that mike winger is not a theologian or that it even represents "most apologists" becaue mike says a lot of surprising things i have only heard mike say (i don't really like this guy by the way), let's say that everything is true (and i actually think he is actually espousing a view that exists in theology but so badly i might as well say he didn't talk about it)
What does this have to do with angels having free will and angels not having free will? Now let's try to make the view a bit stronger, let's say that humans being have free will and during their live they make continuous actions which then taints their soul and lead them to it's natural place: hell. And when it's natural place their soul can't but not sin(because eternity won't work the same as current time) even though it was from their decision that their soul are directed as such as that they continuously sin forever.
Okay, now what does that say about angels having free will or not? I'm still not sure. All it tells me is that satan's souls if messed up forever because of his decision and he can't but not be evil (so he will keep rebelling for eternity). Nowhere does it contradict anything. That either angels have free will or not.
"You're also essentially arguing that it's possible for a free willed being to require no salvation, which is actively contrary to most of the New Testament. Worse, you're arguing that beings that live on longer timescales than humans are more likely to not sin, which is silly."
And here you are you presuppose alot of things. First "it is possible for a free willed being to require no salvation......" what do you mean "require" if salvation is understood as a grace? Do you mean i do not require being saved?? i do not require being saved for... what exactly? I do not require being saved to go to "hell"? Or do you think i am arguing that like "rebelled demons will go to heaven/receive no punishment".
"And playing definition shenanigans with what counts as a "rebelling" angel doesn't negate the fact that it's possible to sin without meaning to, and so the definition of "rebellion" you have to adopt there to justify that black and white position also becomes absurd."
And again you don't know what you are saying. So you think that an angel, with a vast amount of knowledge and that is pure intellect can sin without "meaning to"? Humans, sure, but not angels which is why you confusing them as just some guys but in the skys that does the biding of God gets you problems.
Angels being pure intellect at least can be found clearly into Aquinas for example who spoke extensively about them.
"Claiming something is a "standard belief for hundred of years" doesn't mean anything if it doesn't make any kind of consistent sense, that's just an appeal to tradition."
Because theologians didn't change this belief unless you can prove otherwise. Otherwise yes, christianity is just a series of tradition, a triune god is a belief and a tradition. And of course i have to appeal to tradition, Especially when you say "well no before Christians believed that they didn't have free will until apologists came around and now want to save face in front of the criticism", what do you think i should appeal to, my friend bob and his church? What about Michael and his church?
If a new belief is incoherent than let it be such which is why it would be better for them to abandon to belief and get more informed.
"The Bible says it's not possible for humans not to sin, ipso facto the same is true of angels - whether they want to or not. "
"It's not possible for humans not to sin so it's true of angel"
You are using ipso facto here to impress (as it appears, also not saying it to be mean cuz it appears as such in text lol) and yet you are making some grand logical jump. "it's true for humans so it's true of angels" is only true if humans and angels are of the same nature. But the fact you think angels are being that "lives longer" is already telling. At any rates they are not of the same nature so something being true for humans is not necessarily true for angels, even if both have free will. But yes Adam and eve could've not sinned for example, there's nowhere saying they couldn't.
"And if you want to claim that they're "perfect beings" and that's why they don't sin then a. that means the ones that fell were made imperfect intentionally (so the Christian god wanted them to sin), and b. it means perfect beings are incapable of certain choices and are therefore not free willed."
What does it mean being perfect? If you mean being maximally great in every aspect imaginable, then no, because that's only God, if you mean, not having sinned then yes perfect beings.
Now if you say "that would mean that god could sin" then no, because God is maximally great in every aspect, so that couldn't happen and it would be a logical contradiction to his nature, but not the ones of angels.
Angels are beings of pure intellect, if they sin, then they are doing such with their full rationale, that's the kind of being they are.
When Satan was made he freely choose to rebel, and other angels not, and that's that.
@@toonyandfriends1915 Is there freewill in heaven?
If so, is there sin? If not, then there is nothing to choose from, therefore no freewill. iF you could choose sin,
would God allow it? I would assume not, since it's Heaven. Therefore, no freewill.
This has me picturing a movie in which Satan and his third of the angels all shout, "I am Spartacus!" at the end.
The Devil or Satan hated you all or all humans. Why are you all taking up for him??? The devil hates mankind guts and it's b/c God prefers men over him. And it's why we have so much mayhem on this earth now.
When you said maybe they’re like robots I couldn’t get the image of the matrix out of my head. The angels just being the ai trying to make sure we run according to plan.
People have created stories where angels are robots. D&D created Maruts (originally helper storm dieties) in the fantasy universe, they are giant holy constructs. The Marvel comics film The Eternals has fantasy cosmology of giant 'space god' constructs (that might have brains inside) that are served by the Eternals, who are supermagic constructs.
In Islam the lower gods/immortals are just messenger robots, so Iblis (their Lucifer character) is not an angel but is a genie… a special genie that hung out with angels… or in another denomination of Islam Iblis was the angel Azazel that was demoted to becoming the genie Iblis. Religions are extremely false and used by evil parents to manipulate their children.
Just adding to the thoughts of both of you here, me personally, I recalled Heroes of Might and Magic Angels also being androids, produced to fend off demons, who are actually aliens according to the lore.
This situation is bizarre, because I can't understand why anyone would take unsubstantiated claims of angels seriously. As an adult, I understand that the Klingons are fictional aliens. Why would Christians think that angels are any less fictional than Klingons, when there is no evidence to suggest that they are?
Thats why you're indoctrinated young. If you believe in an invisible being, served by invisible beings, and that you're mentally influenced by invisible beings, what is the difference? One of the questions on psychology exams is whether you believe in the actuality of a god...Religion is a gateway to mental delusions.
I personally met an angel when I was a little girl. Angels are real. 😊
@@missco2820 🤣
The fact that Angels had to rebel and fight in heaven meant that 1) they have nowhere to go 2) they had no option to just leave somewhere else 3) they felt locked down, and felt the need to fight the statue quo that God set up, as the only option
Happy sunday, angels seem like an interesting topic here
Happy Sunday!
My head canon about angels was that god made them too great and they were too proud to repent after falling - he would have given them the chance but knew none would take it, and so he made humans, smaller, weaker, who would be willing to humble themselves, repent and accept forgiveness. Of course now that I think of it, why would the tri Omni god do trial and error? This means all he did was premeditated and he didn't care that these beings would be the collateral damage to his "perfect" design. The Dispensationalist doctrine is just awful: god creates angels, to show that they failed, he creates man, and he fails, he lets humanity follow their own heart, and they fail, after the flood he makes a pact with the patriarchs, and they fail, he gives Moses the law, and the Israelites fail, he established kings, and they failed, he sent Jesus, and they crucified him. He established the Church, and we fail, so he will establish his 1000 year kingdom where sin will be swiftly punished, and Satan will be imprisoned, but the moment he is released, Armageddon happens. Then he recreates the entire world, takes all the redeemed to heaven and the new earth and sweeps all the collateral damaged, both human and angelical, under the rug into the lake of fire forever... There! God's perfect design, it all worked out in the end. He is either not all knowing and all powerful, doing trial and error, or he is evil and went through with his plan, (which, being perfect and all sufficient in himself, he could just not have created anything) not caring about all the sentient creatures that would be tortured either eternally or temporarily before being anhilated.
Also the explanation of angels being too great to be able to repent doesn’t even make sense. First, with god being tri-Omni, he would’ve known he was making the angels too great to be able to repent and went along with it anyway, so he never wanted them to repent and just continue suffering as demons in hell, which doesn’t seem very omnibenevolent to be.
Second, if the angels were too great to repent then that puts a limit on God’s own greatness, because the angels were in the presence of God so they would’ve known exactly how great he is. Now unless we want to claim the angels themselves were on a similar level of being tri-omni as god, then the greatness of angels would be infinitely below the greatness of god, so it makes no sense that angels, who know God’s greatness to be infinitely greater than their own, to still value their own thoughts and judgements enough that they wouldn’t repent when god disapproves of those thoughts and judgements.
@@jacobhall4655 well that's a great point. Also makes me think of how Satan is allowed to do anything, deceive people, blind them, etc. God could in theory just prevent him, and if he doesn't, he is essentially allowing it, and the power imbalance works the other way, with Satan being so wiser and greater than humans as to make us defense less against him. One of the last things that happened before I left church was me proofreading an article for a magazine and the missionary was writing on Ephesians, he literally wrote that people are powerless to resist the influence of this great enemy, and so they chose to reject the message of god. I must have read and heard such things many times before, but it was my first time really noticing it. The very idea of a "deceiver" implies the person deceived can't be blamed. You were either presented with false information or emotionally manipulated in such a way that you made a decision you wouldn't have made otherwise.
@@jacobhall4655 There's also the part where God doesn't want man to "become as they are", indicating that his Creation could have been on equal ground. Hey! Maybe the Mormons got a hold of the Tree of Knowledge and that's how they're going to get them planets! LOL
@@CatDaddyGuitar "... indicating that his Creation could have been on equal ground."
You're so close to figuring it out.
"Maybe the Mormons got a hold of the Tree of Knowledge and that's how they're going to get them planets! LOL"
Getting warmer!
@@wolfofthewest8019 you do understand I'm joking?
Powerful argument for sure! Thanks Brandon for another well thought out and well presented video!
### Flaws in the Biblical Narrative as Presented in the Video
#### 1. **Inconsistent Depiction of Free Will**
- **Issue**: The biblical narrative suggests that angels, like humans, possess free will. However, the consequences for angels exercising their free will (eternal damnation) are far more severe and irreversible than for humans.
- **Flaw**: This inconsistency challenges the notion of a just and fair God. If both humans and angels are given free will, the disparity in consequences undermines the fairness of divine justice.
#### 2. **Moral Implications of Divine Coercion**
- **Issue**: Angels are created with the primary purpose of serving and worshiping God, with the alternative being eternal punishment.
- **Flaw**: This arrangement resembles coercion more than free will. Creating beings with the sole purpose of servitude under threat of severe punishment questions the moral integrity of the creator.
#### 3. **Problem of Eternal Punishment**
- **Issue**: The eternal punishment for angels who rebel, as depicted in stories like Satan’s fall, is disproportionate to the offense.
- **Flaw**: Eternal punishment for finite actions challenges the concept of proportional justice, which is a cornerstone of fair and moral judicial systems.
#### 4. **Lack of Opportunity for Redemption**
- **Issue**: Unlike humans, angels are not offered a path to redemption or forgiveness once they rebel.
- **Flaw**: This lack of a redemptive option for angels suggests a rigid and unforgiving divine system, which contrasts with the narrative of a merciful and forgiving God presented for humans.
#### 5. **Ethical Issues with Divine Creation**
- **Issue**: The narrative that God created angels specifically for worship and service, knowing that rebellion would result in eternal damnation, raises ethical concerns.
- **Flaw**: Creating beings with predetermined roles and severe consequences for non-compliance questions the ethics of such creation. It suggests a manipulative and authoritarian aspect to divine creation.
#### 6. **Analogies to Human Slavery**
- **Issue**: The roles and treatment of angels are likened to slavery, where beings are created to serve without genuine autonomy.
- **Flaw**: This analogy underscores the ethical problems with the divine system. If human slavery is considered morally reprehensible, then a divine system that mirrors such dynamics is equally problematic.
#### 7. **Discrepancies in Divine Justice**
- **Issue**: The different treatments of angels and humans in terms of justice and redemption highlight discrepancies in the divine justice system.
- **Flaw**: Inconsistent application of justice and mercy between different creations (angels vs. humans) undermines the notion of a perfectly just and fair deity.
#### 8. **Special Pleading for Divine Actions**
- **Issue**: Apologists often use special pleading to justify God’s actions towards angels, arguing that divine justice operates on a different moral plane.
- **Flaw**: Special pleading weakens the argument for a coherent and understandable moral framework. If divine actions cannot be justified within a consistent moral system, it raises questions about the nature of divine morality.
### Conclusion
The biblical narrative, as critiqued in the video, reveals several flaws regarding the concepts of free will, justice, and morality. These flaws challenge the traditional portrayal of a just and benevolent deity and call for a re-examination of theological beliefs and the ethical implications of the divine actions described in the Bible.
I found this argument both reasonable and very, very chilling.
22:55 The answer to why apologists make excuses for god's behavior is simple. They're either too scared of what he'll do to them if they question him, or they're just like him and are trying to justify their behavior under the guise of justifying god's behavior.
After thinking about the descriptions of heaven, and despite it’s divine qualities, sounds a lot like the earthly nations we deal with.
I was recently thinking about how "angel" literally means "messenger," which makes me wonder how much of the other concepts we include with the word "angel" is just extra-Biblical cultural accretion, in the same way that nowhere does it say that "three" "kings" visited baby Jesus while he was in the "manger."
Religion continues to be the greatest scourge to ever be set upon man.
excellent video, and you brought many good points that aren't usually talked about. because your questions come from reading the text and thinking about the text and then common sense makes us ask questions. So again great video
Ah all ready that!
I never understood why a God needs an army.
Because it exist rules in this world that even the god of christians has to follow so he uses them to do what he cant.
free will?
Angels don't believe in free will. The know causality!
Exactly. The "bad" ones are the ultimate victims of causality
Who is making up this garbage?
An all powerful god named Yahweh, who always existed, decides to create an army of angels to serve him and worship him.
Yahweh is all knowing, all wise, all loving and cannot make a mistake but some of the angels rebel against him anyway.
The bad angels are defeated by the good angels and cast into hell but escape and roam the earth tempting the humans to rebel against Yahweh, who according to his own actions is a schizophrenic, mass murdering monster who can't stop them.
This is just bad storytelling. Learn how to write a decent story.
Exactly. Beyond that, the angels would be beyond the effects of sin, so there’s no reason for them to go bad.
Very well articulated points, thanks. Angels and demons seem to me like folklore that grew to the point that it took over several whole religions.
Another thing that the Judeo-Christian sects dedicatedly ignore is that their belief in the existence of angels and demons means that they are henotheistic, not monotheistic. Paul even says that the other gods are demons, meaning that other gods exist. Giving a special word to the lower entities in their pantheon doesn't make it any less a pantheon.
-------------------------------------
"Double-bind" choices (where there is no acceptable choice) are used by torturers and mind control programmers as a technique to break people and install shame. They are not real choices. The essence of the Christian salvation message seems to be one big double-bind choice to break and control people and install shame.
You are still a breath of fresh air in this space.
I've never thought of this before: Just because 1/3 of the angels rebelled, doesn't mean the other 2/3 were all totally on God's side. Just to make it even, let's say 1/3 loved God, and 1/3 were on the fence and just too scared of the consequences, _especially_ after seeing what happened. There are discontents among the heavenly host
Awesome explanation & content!
Thank you!
Love this Chanel and always helps me so much with logical perspectives and awesome new information.
Music to my ears. Thank you!
13:50
"well you could have been a Doctor ". 😂😅😂😅
One of your funnier videos.
Thanks for the laughs 👍
Praise the comedian!
Lol! Thanks for being here for it
Taking notes from Paradise Lost (A POV tale from Lucifer), and then some from the Bible, the angels used to have free will.
But after banning Lucifer away, it is said that God took away free will from the angels to prevent another uprising. That's why they look like this mindless machine... just giving and feeding stuff God wants to hear, and probably we want to hear.
But do angels even think for themselves? Do they have their own thoughts? Do they even once question the same way as Lucifer?
*_I'm gonna pity for the Seraphims now._*
:shudder: I read a synopsis and parts of Paradise Lost. I don't remember angels losing their free will. Talk about a fate worse than death.
The Bible... God created man in His image... Man created God in his image to justify his ignorance and injustice and anger and hatred and bigotry. If God created the Universe and if God is Omniscient... why would God be so flawed! Because God is a creation of flawed man.
Very well said
Hi, it is impossible for man to create God in his image seeing we cannot possibly precive the fullest of God, what you named were all man's faults portrayed onto God, due to sin. due to sin we have fallen and it has made a rift between man and God. no sinful man can see the fullest of God and live, exodus 33:22
But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man shall see Me and live.
Not because he will kill them but God being so holy ( The Hebrew word for "holy" literally means "separate" or "set apart". This can refer to God's separation from sin and evil, or to God's people being set apart from sin, and purity incapableof sinning as stated in James 1:13 -14 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed ) and righteous if a sinful man came into his presence he will drop dead, Biblical characters like John wrote in revelations 1:17
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last. There's more I can say if you will like me to explain further or if you have an6other questions on my Lord and savior ❤🙂
In humans, slaves can be the equal of their masters if given the opportunity. Angles can never be the equal of God.
Source?
Citation needed.
Because angles are mathematical concepts created by humans. I think the word you’re looking for is angel.
Stumbled on this, and glad I did. Excellent. Your logic and reasoning are on point. Respect.
Great video B, like i always said, How did God create imperfect heavenly angels. Perfect means no flaws, no bad intentions, no mistakes from mind and soul. The War in Heaven story will always bring an excuse for "free will". I would consider your channel to every Christian to open their mind a bit !
A couple of head canon things I don't have any biblical sources for:
I think angels can breed with any species. They just seem magical like that.
I'm also reminded of that angel with the flaming sword who is supposed to guard the entrance to Eden. Poor angel will still be there a few trillion years from now after we're long dead. All because Yahweh didn't think to have them guard the tree to begin with. lol
I find it extremely hard to believe Yahweh is as great as he says he is when 30% of your children flee from you the second they get the chance. And seeing the punishment they received......yeah. They were right to run away.
Brilliant sir. Thank you. Very eloquent and honest. The best content I have EVER heard about angels.
Appreciate this!
Brandon you just set off another -light-bulb for me. So God sent a messenger to tell Hagar to go back to the house of an abusive woman and a spineless man who would not stand up to his wife and tell her to stop her abuse of Hagar. I get that Hagar was having the baby for Abraham and Sarah and did not want to give up the child. But, sending back to her abuser..... ! Just how good would it be for the child? The Bible has come to remind me of a Soap Opera. Oh and that's right; this is the same Abraham who is the father of all nations. I'll stop here because this is just too messed up.
Another thought: So why does Yahweh need all these angels flying around verbally praising him. What an ego! Or is it a trace of narcissism?
Yup! The story of Hagar is problematic to a good god for about 20 reasons.
Very great points! I haven't thought of thinking about the angel's perspective so closely.
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@MindShift-Brandon Also, I think that your breaking down people's desire for Heaven is great! As for many Christians the desire for Heaven is what keeps them hanging on to the whole Christianity package.
@@BeccaYoley True, but even more, the fear of Hell. 🔥
I hadn't considered this before! Thanks for another video and change in perspective!
FINALLY! Someone other than me gets it! I've been saying it for years that God isn't a good creator deity, if he woukd enslave his own creations!
It’s amazing the things religion forces us to believe
This highlights those early Christian developments such as the Gnostics who saw the Old testament God as being the Demiurge/Evil and the New testament God the God of Peace & Love. But as Christianity developed we took Satan to be the ruler of this world (after the Fall of Adam & Eve) and God the Father, the Redeemer, and the Sanctifier as the real God of the Universe.
Why would god need a counsel of angels to discuss things. Doesn’t he have omniscience, which means he already knows what he is going to think, decide and do in the future. Can god go against his own foreknowledge
right, this bible is insanely inconsistent.
The concept of God being omniscient comes later. In the earliest writings, there are several instances where God appears to not know what is going on. The first is in Genesis when God is looking for Adam and Eve but another is the story of the Tower of Babel when God checks out what is happening on earth and finds out humans are building a tower. In addition, in the earliest writings, there is clearly a divine council and YHWH is one of many gods. Even in Paul’s letters there is an acknowledgement of the existence of other gods but Christians are exhorted to abandon them and only worship YHWH.
Dan McClellan addressed this: ua-cam.com/video/oyjcfksSZwM/v-deo.htmlsi=XK921ApWo8_DtgFn
@@OldMotherLogo yes, such rewriting are to be expected of a man made god rather than a real god with actual fixed attributes.
Naturally as the centuries pass people re-write what their god can do to go along with changing expectations
God is innocent. It is nice to have counsel. The idea of him having counsel removes the idea of angels not having free will. Because it means he is discussing how things WILL GO. Rather than just doing whatever. Everything has free will. You just fail to listen. It is not gods job to make you listen.😭
@@greaterthan97 If God is discussing how things WILL GO then it means he did not already know. You can’t have it both ways - him being all knowing and him taking counsel. IF he already knows, what is the point of counsel? And if he is taking counsel, then he doesn’t already know.
Raised Roman Catholic, ten years under the tutelage of Ursuline nuns. So angels were my favorite imaginary friends! Taught I had my very own guardian angel (WOW!) And Michael was a kick-ass superhero (very jealous of the EIGHT kids in my class named Michael). Gabriel had a very cool trumpet and costume. And the wings were something I longed for. Point: Angels are fairy tales for children and childish adults. And you could at least chuckle every now and then - the whole idea of incorporeal (whatever that means) sycophants fluttering around is profoundly amusing.
The BIBLE, GOD, and JESUS CHRIST bring HONOR and ETERNAL LIFE and EXISTENCE on EARTH to HUMAN BEINGS
Jehovah's Witnesses, SDAs, Mormons, Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Born Again Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, fanatics of all kinds of Religions, and Atheists
who
are unitedly claiming and asserting that GOD's Sovereignty and Jesus Christ's authority and teachings written in the BIBLE are nothing but lies, myths, fictions, fantasies, and fairy tales
are obviously
the same persons on earth who are unitedly opposed and against the BIBLICAL TRUTHS that -
1. The submissiveness of lowly, ordinary, kind, and respectful persons on earth to the authority of Jesus Christ in their obedience to what's written in Matthew 28: 18
will
definitely bring them honor and GOD's favor and reward of ETERNAL LIFE and existence on earth without sufferings, pains, griefs sickness, and death as written in Revelation 21: 3, 4
2. The teachings of Jesus Christ about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" written in Luke 4: 43 and John 11: 25, 26
are the guarantee
that
loving, kind, considerate, and respectful persons on earth
who
died recently and thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Job, Naomi, Ruth, King David, Jesus Christ's Followers and disciples, and many others
will
all be RESURRECTED back to life in the right and proper time so they can happily and honorably live and exist on earth forever as citizens and subjects of the "KINGDOM of GOD"
and fully enjoy the eternal love, kindness, goodness, generosities, compassions, favors, and blessings of GOD and his Christ for eternity
under the loving and kind rulership, guidance, and protection of Jesus Christ as his GOD and Father's Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth as written in Revelation 11: 15.
Are your angels not shapeshifters taking the form of cats, dogs, birds, & even humans that you may interact with?