Get all sides of every story and be better informed at ground.news/AlexOC - subscribe for 40% off unlimited access. Subscribe to my Substack at www.alexoconnor.com
It's strange that you would fancy either you or your guest are equipped to answer questions like this one. It's like listening to two blind men describe the colors and strokes of the Mona Lisa. I would wager not many great men throughout all of time have attained to the height of grandeur you occupy in your own self-estimation. I await the flurry of herd-minions ready to jump to your defense. 😘
@ndari6596 🤦 no it means what jesus always taught, you are the spirit you are the soul you are that which is the power you seek outside yourself. It's about acceptance of personal responsibility and accountability. It's not code saying software, body, control. You're being reductionist and simplistic towards the interpretation.
@@Snowforest60 With respect your sentence has no full stop so until basic punctuation requirements are met in linguistical standing I'll just say that having a physicist on doesn't mean anything and just suggests you prefer to use appeals to objective authority to chase a looser defined aspect of subjective interpretation.
@@jonathonjubb6626only as a young boy. My Dad said don’t shave it or I’ll have to keep doing it. I got bullied for it “butt fluff” and shaved it off . No kidding Dad, I’ll have to shave again. Of course I will!!
@Gennalouiserobinson his mustache is the only thing real in the whole conversation. This is heretical fan fiction about other fan fiction from elaborate oral traditions. It's fun but the specifics aren't super interesting.
@@RonJohn63 It's a program within the department of ancient history. My dissertation was on the relationship between the "Great Church" (or "proto-orthodoxy) and the Valentinian 'gnosticism'. A lot of quotation marks b/c these terms are highly debated.
Please see my comment above. "Beelzebub's Tales" is a gigantic slog (although pretty entertaining), especially if you're unfamiliar with Gurdjieff's work, but if you are familiar, it's something you can attempt. The names aren't similar, but the creation process has some similarities.
I'm so envious of how people can have casual conversations like this! I swear if I meet a person who's an expert on any esoteric knowledge, I'll pull out some handcuffs. Thanks for sharing Alex!
@@richyrich6099 really explain? He has a PHD from Germany. What are your thoughts on Pascal's wager? My thoughts it is a wager I will not take...you are quite wrong my friend good luck on your journey
Commenting at 6.48, will carry on, but just thought how funny it would be if every time we cut back to Alex his hair gets wilder and moustache a bit heavier. 😊 Love this channel and Alex's amazing work.
@@johndepp-vz4yjBritish English, American, Australian etc. would be considered dialects if I'm not mistaken. Ofc a big part of a dialect is the accent, but it is not just the accent. Vocabulary and even some grammar differ.
I love the setting. The apartment, the greenery... absolutely amazing. And the actual content was awesome as well. Episodes with Ehrman are one of the best and the gnostic gospels seem to have a much cooler lore lol
Judas to Jesus: O master, why are you always in hiding? Jesus: Because they are trying to kill me. Judas: Hmm, i thought the whole point of your ministry was to die for our sins? Jesus : ----- (
Thank you for having Dr. Ehrman on again! You two are my favorite theology speakers/writers that I follow, and it’s especially great when I get to listen to both of you in conversation!
After last week’s non-sensical ramblings from the guest, thank goodness for Bart! Also - this is just an aside, but your camera quality and setup are amazing. Truly the just makes the experience of watching all the more enjoyable.
You like to listen to people that parrot the things you already believe. Dig into Jonathan Pageau more and understand his non-materialistic explanation of the Bible and then what he says won’t sound so non-sensical. If you want to stay in your box, keep listening to the people that repeat the things you like to hear
@@Wakkks You know, if you wanted to spread a message to someone from a place of good faith you should probably take your own advice and practice some humility and kindness first? Not everyone that doesn't share your viewpoint is your enemy.
@@aleks5340 if i didnt like to hear others viewpoint i wouldnt watch 2h videos of Bart talking about the Bible. I don’t believe i was arrogant or rude. Shes wrong about Jonathan Pageau and is speaking from ignorance
@@Wakkks Sometimes people listen to another perspective and they still come to the conclussion that they're wrong. Deciding that people you know nothing about just "like to listen to people that parrot the things you already believe" is dismissive and makes the other person less likely to listen to anything you have to say or take your advice.
@@Wakkks Aren't you being ironic and not heeding your own advice? You seem so convinced of this fellow you endorse, you even got riled up because someone didn't agree with him. Maybe you're the one who's close minded, don't you think?
I like the moustache. You look like a British Soldier from WW2. Also, cool video. This topic has fascinated me since I read into the Apocryphal Gospels.
Like one of the thousands of British solidiers trapped and cornered at Dunkirk whose lives were forgiven by order of Hitler and allowed to go back to Britain only to resume their hatred for Germans and soon fly on their planes over to Germany and kill hundreds of thousands of civilians in air raids?
Something wrong with Bart’s assessment of the Judas betrayal. He doesn’t think it’s likely that Jesus predicted his own death, but says Jesus predicting his death is the most likely reason that Judas turned on him
Yes, this. To be honest, there really is not much at all in the New Testament to start trying to get into the motivations of everyone in the bible. Bart's musing has as much foundation as those who say Jesus was gay because he wasn't married and hung out with a group of guys. It becomes a blank slate to project your own bias.
He didn’t say that Jesus predicting his death was the reason for the betrayal; just Jesus expressing doubts that things would go as he originally stated. If I say I don’t think I’m going to get a promotion, and that day I get hit by a bus, I didn’t predict my own death even if my prediction was true.
@@TheCow798 Bart also said that he thought Jesus would be the king and the 12 disciples would rule over the 12 tribes (which I thought was a good argument that he didn't know he was going to die). So Jesus thought he was going to be King and then says, "Oops, my bad". A simpler explanation is that Judas simply saw the net closing in on all of them and it was nothing at all about Jesus his teachings or what he said about his plans, Judas simply lost faith in their work and likelihood of success and betrayed Jesus to save his own skin. It's not like we don't see this type of betrayal in various groups all the time. But any speculation of his thought processes is just that, speculation based on nothing.
The other major problem with Bart’s conclusion is that he completely ignores all of the sayings of Jesus like “My kingdom is not of this world” etc. If you read through the gospels you’ll see Jesus getting frustrated with the disciples for not understanding what he was saying.
Yes! Bart Erhrman! AMAZING! He is the best contemporary theological historian of our time! We should all be glad that we live in the time of Bart Ehrman!
I love listening to Bart Ehrman, but one thing that does not make sense is to first argue that Jesus went to Jerusalem not expecting to be killed and then arguing a minute later that Judas became disillusioned with Jesus because he was talking about being crucified. If Jesus came to Jerusalem not expecting to be killed, why would he talk about being crucified? It seems that Bart Ehrman is dismissing a part of the Bible story only to then use that Bible story to explain Judas' motivation. If you want to argue that Judas was disappointed, what would be more plausible is to say that Jesus went to Jerusalem, not expecting to be arrested and killed. Judas expected that going to Jerusalem meant that the revolution was about to get underway and once he realized Jesus did not intent to start an uprising, Judas was disillusioned and went to the authorities to get Jesus arrested.
Who knows what Jesus said or did or even if Judas really existed? The Gospels are highly mythologized, unreliable historical sources. Think of them as movies of their day. How many movies are historically accurate? I'm sure there was some turmoil. Rome noticed and said "enough".
That's what I got, actually. The part of him being disillusioned about Jesus's crucifixion is in the NT, not his take as a Historian. As a Historian it was more "Well we can't read his mind"
I thought he was saying that Bart's opinion is that the historical Jesus did not expect to die in Jerusalem, while the Gnostic Gospel of Judas portrayed Judas' betrayal as related to the disillusionment you mentioned. These two things are separate: one the historical person and one the Gnostic portrayal. These can be contradictory, especially considering most Christians do not view the Gospel of Judas as canon.
@@falsevacuum4667 The Gnostic text is a metaphysical text working on non historical levels of what behind the scenes night look like. This would be called a "soul contract" or "ordained mission" and said it had to be done. You might look at Journey of souls by Michael Newton or Your Soul's Plan by Robert Schwartz to get insight into this. If Judas even existed,
Thanks Alex, just 40 minutes in and I'm already glued to my screen, scouring the Internet for the past 3 hours reading up on gnosticism. Goddamn this is interesting, so here is my entry level take on what I've read so far: all the names are fucking metal af. Seriously very interesting cosmology. It's crazy to imagine that in a parallel universe, this could have been the version of christianity we are all accustomed to. Also Bart Ehrman is such an amazing communicator. The way he explains this gospel is just so captivating and digestible.
This is amazing to listen to . This guy makes this moment in time easier to understand . Get him back in and talk about anything he wants but especially is opinions on Marc gospel and his opinion . Also what he thinks about what Dr Armon Hillman thinks . This is facinating .
Oh, Jesus! I didn't know Alex was going to have a side hustle as vintage corn star... I was so hyped for the topic and now... I can't concentrate with that Ron Jeremy moustache.
Bart’s theory doesn’t really work, if I’m understanding correctly. He denies Jesus’ prediction of his own crucifixion, but then says that Judas betrays Jesus because Jesus starts talking about his crucifixion.
his argument in his books 1. Historical Judas saw the plan wasnt working, betrayed Jesus 2. later documentation had to deal with Jesus being surprised which looks bad so they add in a part where Jesus wasnt surprised 3. Now Judas gets the same result but has more evidence supporting his conclusion. Historical: a -> B Gospel: BIG-A -> B
@@isiahs9312 That argument is so bad it isn't even funny. Does he really think that Jesus thought he could go and start beating people at the Temple, a huge money-making event, and nothing was going to happen?
The former Christian in me was like, "Wow, every time I hear these gnostic stories they are so wackadoodle." Then I think, "Well actually, so are all the canonical stories..."
Christians with the canonical gospels: "These are all true and written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John within decades of Jesus being crucified!" Christians with non-canonical gospels: "Those are apocrypha! You don't even know who wrote them and they were written long after the crucifixion!"
@@jennapecor1865 or they had him replaced because he was no longer with them. It is only in Matthew and Acts that Judas commits suicide, and both with different accounts. No other gospel mentions Judas committing suicide, strangely.
I watched the National Giographic documentary about the Gospel of Judas and this exact discovery as a young teenager, and it laid the foundation for my atheism years later. This discovery changed my life and me question everything I knew. It opened my eyes to a beautiful universe and to science and to reasoning. Thank you Alex for doing this interview ❤ It brought back memories and triumphs long forgotten 🥹
@@magnetiktraxthe fact that you exist tells you there is a creator. Something CAN NOT come from Nothing. Even Stephen Hawking said that the Big Bang is PROOF there is a God.
I wonder how much more relatable Christianity would be to audiences today if it was allowed to keep 99% of its canon. It would probably have more universal appeal.
@@paprikash8574 why do I have to explain this to people? Do some basic research. This video is literally about a lost gospel recovered and you people act like this has never happened before. Many have been found in whole and part.
Bart’s fake laugh always gets me so fascinated. It has lived rent free in my head for years now. I wonder how he developed it, and how close it might be to his real laughter. So many questions and Ive never quite understood why some people have this way of communicating.
Re: The Laugh. I thought it was just me. I find his laugh oddly off-putting. Even more pronounced in his discussion with Lambert on Mythvision. A channel I rarely visit.
He was crucified, died and on the 3rd day resurrected. Followers of Jesus Christ exist today not only because of the bible. It still exist because the spirit of God lives in the lives of the followers and such flames and fire can't be put out merely because of one man saying otherwise.
I am near at the same age as Alex, and his mustache scares me, but on a serious note: nice to see Dr. Ehrman back on the show and Judas as a topic is interesting.
It would be realy interesting if you could make an episode discussing how all the different stories of the Bible are interpreted in the gnostic worldview in more depth.
As a Catholic I found this a very interesting conversation about gnosticism and its platonic flavors. Greek and persian influences were very strong in those times and places...
Not Ehrman admitting that Jesus knew he was going to die in mark with the anointing of oil by the sinful woman whilst elsewhere arguing Jesus was surprised he got killed in the mark account in his developing myth hypothesis
There are two thing I think you're confusing here. One is the narrative of the gospel, where Jesus knows he's going to die because the author did, therefore Judas can be motivated by Jesus talking about his death. The other is the actual historical motivation of Judas, which Ehrman says he doesn't know. When Ehrman is talking about the anointing story he is trying to figure out what the author of Mark thought was Judas' motivation.
@@jothamstickings4773 Quite a few people got confused by this, so I think maybe it wasn't presented the best. I also feel like there were moments where after the whole thing of Jesus and Christ being two separate things in the gnostic text/story he keeps referring to Christ as Jesus anyway
Amazing! Bart is downright one of the best for his command of knowledge, all the details he remembers but how simply and clearly he explains things. Tremendously enjoyed it. Thank you.
The Iskar (Bulgarian: Искър, pronounced [ˈiskɐr]; Latin: Oescus) is a right tributary of the Danube. With a length of 368 km, it is the longest river that runs entirely within Bulgaria.[2]
This was one of the most sensational, enlightening and thought-provoking theological discussions I've ever listened to. So glad to see everyone in the comments just focussing on the moustache.
Hearing about the mishandling of the text is heartbreaking. The dude keeping it in a PO box and the person FREEZING IT deserve to be put on trial, actually infuriating.
@@johnwheeler3071 Where does specifics about the date of this gospel come into play? The point is that it's as authentic as any of the other gospels in terms of making claims about Jesus
@@aleksjenner677 Most scholars including atheist scholars like Bart Ehrman think the canonical gospels were written between 70 AD and 100 AD. Some scholars think earlier than that. If the Gospel of Judas was written 50 years after the last cannonical gospel I would say it makes a big difference. If time makes no difference then you would have to agree that if the cannonical gospels were written in 500 AD then they should still be seen as authentic as something written in 150 AD.
Wanted to comment on the missing beard. 😊 But you guys noticed and commented too. I forgot to breathe for a second, because it took me by surprise. 😅 Now, I will continue the video with this interesting topic (reading Dr. Ehrmans book about the gospel of Judas at the moment. How convenient :)) Here we go !! 👍
Astonishing collab again. You got Bart, ReligionForBreakfast, ESOTERICA... What I absolutely need now is a collab with Let'sTalkReligion and Al-Muqaddimah! Would love to hear your insights on the philosophy and general history of Islam
One question. Bart believes that Jesus' intention was to become a King when he came down to Jerusalem. In which case why did Jesus say that he would shortly die? Or is that words put into his mouth by the gospel writers? Just to make it clear, I'm not a believer but I am interested in biblical discussions.
I love how when Alex reads the end of the gospel Bart starts to get so excited he's almost shaking 🤣. You can tell how much passion the both of these men have for the subject!
I just listened to Dr. Ehrman's book of the Gospel of Judas. It was interesting! So nice to watch this video here. I was fascinated by the Gospel and now ordered the book to read the text of the Gospel in its entirety. Yes, it's a good idea, as Alex points out(!), to get some education on the Gospel beforehand. I was kind of frustrated, that I didn't understand much, when I read it. When Alex, who is so much more intelligent than I, here said, that he had difficulties to understand, I felt a bit better. 😉 Thank you Alex for all your informative videos, where I learn a lot and which are a pleasure to watch. And thank you especially for having Dr. Ehrman. I love listening to you two!
The title of this vid reads like a Jeopardy answer and question! 😂 I'm new to Alex's channel here and love it so far. Great interviewer and great guest!
Dr. Ehrman missed the point when he says that Jesus thought and told his disciples they would rule over the 12 tribes, as if it meant worldly political rule. The whole point of Jesus ministry was to reveal power in weakness. Read what he says to his disciples in Matthew 20:25-28, he told them that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over you but that that is not how it was supposed to be with them, that he who would be the greatest must be a servant, and that Jesus himself came to serve, not to “rule” in a political worldly sense. The disciples went on to be “rulers” in that they served, in the same way that Jesus did. Dr. Ehrman misses this and just assumes Jesus meant political “rule.”
Also, the idea that Jesus didn't think talking endless crap about the most powerful people in his society, the Pharisees, the rich, and the powerful would not end in his death is laughable. ESPECIALLY after those very same people murdered John the Baptist. I don't know what modern scholars are doing, because it is obvious they are failing at understanding the most basic elements of the teachings of Jesus.
I think that may be possible, but you have to remember what language the gospels were written in. Political ruler may be more likely. Spiritual ruler may be more likely. Maybe something else.
We have no idea what Jesus ever said since the gospels were made up long after Jesus died and by people who most likely never even met Jesus! For that matter we don’t even know for sure Jesus ever existed! He certainly wasn’t the first person to be called the Christ! It is all made up crap!
@@26beegee we know definitely Jesus was a living breathing person, the gospels were written by people that have met Christ and/or were disciples of those who have met Christ and they were written down there is definitely continuity that would be foolish to ignore
How can you, as a historian, say that the Gospels are wrong about Jesus knowing he's going to die, but then appeal to the Gospels as a source to say Jesus thought he was never going to die and rule as a king?
You're putting words in his mouth he didn't say. He never said that Jesus thought he was NEVER going to die. He simply said he didn't come to Jerusalem to die.
@@LarsPallesen I tried to call you a naughty word, but youtube stopped me. Quit dodging the point of what I said, you know I didn't mean to say Jesus thought he would NEVER die, geez.
Sources are complicated yo. You can think the biographies of Leif Erickson are wrong about most stuff while still using them to glean historical information lmao.
@@benjaminjenkins2384 Yeah, but in this case, he's believing that the text is an accurate record of the words of Jesus in one instance, and then in another instance he believes it's an inaccurate record of the words of Jesus. Just seems unnecessarily arbitrary. Why believe one and not the other? He didn't really lay out a good argument for that. Just my opinion.
What is so hard to understand that a document can have both historical and fictional elements to it? As he says in the video, any time you encounter a saying by Jesus in the Bible, scholars have to ask themselves if it is legitimate or not. They apply their methods separately on every line and so will find some cases where the evidence is good for it being legitimate and others where the evidence is not good.
It is understood that the person in question was in fact John Mark. He is the writer of the gospel and the only one who records it. He was the only one who knew! Hardly surprising he would conceal his identity!
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It's strange that you would fancy either you or your guest are equipped to answer questions like this one. It's like listening to two blind men describe the colors and strokes of the Mona Lisa. I would wager not many great men throughout all of time have attained to the height of grandeur you occupy in your own self-estimation.
I await the flurry of herd-minions ready to jump to your defense. 😘
Have you ever considered writing a formal, peer-reviewed treatment of some of your positions?
Have ya considered getting Dr David kipping his a physicist who’s philosophically literate
@ndari6596 🤦 no it means what jesus always taught, you are the spirit you are the soul you are that which is the power you seek outside yourself. It's about acceptance of personal responsibility and accountability. It's not code saying software, body, control. You're being reductionist and simplistic towards the interpretation.
@@Snowforest60 With respect your sentence has no full stop so until basic punctuation requirements are met in linguistical standing I'll just say that having a physicist on doesn't mean anything and just suggests you prefer to use appeals to objective authority to chase a looser defined aspect of subjective interpretation.
We’ve now entered Alex’s mustache era, folks
Eh, I would describe it as a work in progress.
Not a fan of the stache.
Ironically I decided to let my stache grow today lol
His razor must have broken before he finished
@@iconoclastviiyou're wrong
“I moustache you a question,” is how I chose to believe this discussion to have opened.
you monster
"But I'll shave it for later"
This is a great thread.😅
Cute it's pretty special!
@@ahoel3814ok ok 😊
Mustache jumpscare 0:00
lol 😂
For real man. What was Alex thinking.
@@stevesmith4901 Looking like El Chapo lol
why did he do this
Alex O'Mercury
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who felt the immediate urge to comment on his mustache.
I am usually not really noticing any change in people's beards. But I watch Alex so often, this came right into awareness :)))
So unexpected :)
Haha it's silly but whatever right?
My guess is he lost a bet 😂
It's a Dick broom
Jesus told you do comment on it
I liked that you jumped straight into the subject matter as soon as the video began. Keep that style up! Great content Alex
For a cosmic skeptic, you’re not skeptical enough of that 80s cop mustache! (Thanks for having Bart Ehrman again).
ALL real men try a moustache at least once! ....
I know, what's he thinking? It should be a Nietzsche-style skeptic's mustache, skeptical of all but the bushiest of handlebar staches!
@@jonathonjubb6626only as a young boy. My Dad said don’t shave it or I’ll have to keep doing it. I got bullied for it “butt fluff” and shaved it off . No kidding Dad, I’ll have to shave again. Of course I will!!
I love how more comments are about his glorious stache than they are about the actual discussion
🤦🏾♂️Goofballs
Says a lot about his viewership
Glorious?
@@Gennalouiserobinson irrelevant.
@Gennalouiserobinson his mustache is the only thing real in the whole conversation. This is heretical fan fiction about other fan fiction from elaborate oral traditions. It's fun but the specifics aren't super interesting.
I have a PhD in Gnosticism, but the way Bart is capable of explaining these highly complicated Gnostic narratives is amazing. Exceptional!
"I have a PhD in Gnosticism". Please clarify. Is it Religious Studies?
@@RonJohn63 It's a program within the department of ancient history. My dissertation was on the relationship between the "Great Church" (or "proto-orthodoxy) and the Valentinian 'gnosticism'.
A lot of quotation marks b/c these terms are highly debated.
@@Marko-uj9sd thanks!
Please see my comment above. "Beelzebub's Tales" is a gigantic slog (although pretty entertaining), especially if you're unfamiliar with Gurdjieff's work, but if you are familiar, it's something you can attempt. The names aren't similar, but the creation process has some similarities.
Why -- Why Why would you waste your time studying that//?????
I'm so envious of how people can have casual conversations like this! I swear if I meet a person who's an expert on any esoteric knowledge, I'll pull out some handcuffs. Thanks for sharing Alex!
@@dk-fk4xm if they're into that you could be in for a good time
Find a couple of esoteric type t shirts and wear them around... someone may stop you and talk!
Bdsm?
@gigilolo4660 my comment was along those lines but I guess too explicit and it's been deleted
Lol.
@@uninspired3583 lol
I would LOVE this to be a permanent series between you two
I second this
@@boojackson7133 Hear hear!
no, add William Lane Craig to get both sides
@@555nm6I highly doubt WLC has any opinions of note on the Gnostic gospels. I'd be shocked if he even knew what they were.
@@richyrich6099 really explain? He has a PHD from Germany. What are your thoughts on Pascal's wager? My thoughts it is a wager I will not take...you are quite wrong my friend good luck on your journey
Never clicked a video so fast. Almost as fast as Judas betrayed Jesus
😂😂😂
😆
To be fair, it took him like 3 years
Did you also got some silver pieces?
To soon bro, still to soon 😂😂😂
Keep the Ehrman interviews comming, the dude only talks about fascinating stuff.
Comming? Now THERE'S a new word for you! 😄
I'm not even a Christian but I love hearing Bart's enthusiastic Jesus chat. Good job with the questions you really got him going 😂 great guy.
I try to speak fondly of him specifically when evangelicals try to chat with me. It helps fight off the unintelligent zealot.
You’re more Christian than you realise. Human rights is a Christian concept, for example. And equality.
@@BeerPatioHe is sly sometimes changing his opinions like her forgets stuff
@@user-mp7yz2qt2t Such as?
@@BeerPatioSame I have friends within that community that hate when I bring him up.
My dude the production on this video is NICE
Absolutely! Beautiful set and lighting
It is lovely, indeed.
This podcast gets everything right. It's top shelf gear, this.
so is his mustache
Where is that room????
Commenting at 6.48, will carry on, but just thought how funny it would be if every time we cut back to Alex his hair gets wilder and moustache a bit heavier. 😊 Love this channel and Alex's amazing work.
Sosig
Alex is the most british-sounding french guy
You can't sound British because no such language as British exists. Just say English, it's Okay it's not like Voldemort.
@@JohnnystammyI reccon he was talking about a British accent rather than the ‘British language’
Irish lol
@@johndepp-vz4yjBritish English, American, Australian etc. would be considered dialects if I'm not mistaken. Ofc a big part of a dialect is the accent, but it is not just the accent. Vocabulary and even some grammar differ.
@FredrickGustafson-lv4ty you seem confused lol British is a real thing. Hope this helps 👍
I love the setting. The apartment, the greenery... absolutely amazing. And the actual content was awesome as well. Episodes with Ehrman are one of the best and the gnostic gospels seem to have a much cooler lore lol
Why are there hinged doors below the windows?
@@Armand9100For Alex's little gnome friends to enter for tea time
Is this apartment in France or in the UK?
The setting is enchanting. I want to know more about it. This is a such an interesting discussion. Well done!
@@Froggo9000😂
Judas to Jesus: are you going to the last supper this Thursday?
Jesus: What do you mean “last” supper?
Judas: Sorry, Sorry! I meant supper, supper!
Jesus' Betrayal: What Really Went Down
Give it a search on UA-cam, you won't regret it 😂
Judas to Jesus: O master, why are you always in hiding?
Jesus: Because they are trying to kill me.
Judas: Hmm, i thought the whole point of your ministry was to die for our sins?
Jesus : ----- (
@@afarro Jesus The Betrayal What really went down!
same energy as ''you have defeated me Horus Heresy, you truly are the warhammer 40k''
Thank you for having Dr. Ehrman on again! You two are my favorite theology speakers/writers that I follow, and it’s especially great when I get to listen to both of you in conversation!
Lmao, Alex gets these clowns on to highlight just how stupid they sound
Love how you just get straight into the interview. Thanks for the upload!
After last week’s non-sensical ramblings from the guest, thank goodness for Bart! Also - this is just an aside, but your camera quality and setup are amazing. Truly the just makes the experience of watching all the more enjoyable.
You like to listen to people that parrot the things you already believe. Dig into Jonathan Pageau more and understand his non-materialistic explanation of the Bible and then what he says won’t sound so non-sensical.
If you want to stay in your box, keep listening to the people that repeat the things you like to hear
@@Wakkks You know, if you wanted to spread a message to someone from a place of good faith you should probably take your own advice and practice some humility and kindness first? Not everyone that doesn't share your viewpoint is your enemy.
@@aleks5340 if i didnt like to hear others viewpoint i wouldnt watch 2h videos of Bart talking about the Bible. I don’t believe i was arrogant or rude. Shes wrong about Jonathan Pageau and is speaking from ignorance
@@Wakkks Sometimes people listen to another perspective and they still come to the conclussion that they're wrong. Deciding that people you know nothing about just "like to listen to people that parrot the things you already believe" is dismissive and makes the other person less likely to listen to anything you have to say or take your advice.
@@Wakkks Aren't you being ironic and not heeding your own advice? You seem so convinced of this fellow you endorse, you even got riled up because someone didn't agree with him. Maybe you're the one who's close minded, don't you think?
I friggin love Bart. This conversation and the chats he's had with Sam H. are some of my favorites of all time. What a beast.
I didn't know Ehrman and Alex were fans of Jesus Christ Superstar. As a Broadway and musical theatre fan, I LOVE Jesus Christ Superstar
oh wow. i love this set up. i've recently rewatched bart's interviews so this is great !!!
I like the moustache. You look like a British Soldier from WW2. Also, cool video. This topic has fascinated me since I read into the Apocryphal Gospels.
More likely WW1
Like one of the thousands of British solidiers trapped and cornered at Dunkirk whose lives were forgiven by order of Hitler and allowed to go back to Britain only to resume their hatred for Germans and soon fly on their planes over to Germany and kill hundreds of thousands of civilians in air raids?
Something wrong with Bart’s assessment of the Judas betrayal. He doesn’t think it’s likely that Jesus predicted his own death, but says Jesus predicting his death is the most likely reason that Judas turned on him
Yes, this. To be honest, there really is not much at all in the New Testament to start trying to get into the motivations of everyone in the bible. Bart's musing has as much foundation as those who say Jesus was gay because he wasn't married and hung out with a group of guys. It becomes a blank slate to project your own bias.
He didn’t say that Jesus predicting his death was the reason for the betrayal; just Jesus expressing doubts that things would go as he originally stated. If I say I don’t think I’m going to get a promotion, and that day I get hit by a bus, I didn’t predict my own death even if my prediction was true.
@@TheCow798 Bart also said that he thought Jesus would be the king and the 12 disciples would rule over the 12 tribes (which I thought was a good argument that he didn't know he was going to die).
So Jesus thought he was going to be King and then says, "Oops, my bad".
A simpler explanation is that Judas simply saw the net closing in on all of them and it was nothing at all about Jesus his teachings or what he said about his plans, Judas simply lost faith in their work and likelihood of success and betrayed Jesus to save his own skin.
It's not like we don't see this type of betrayal in various groups all the time.
But any speculation of his thought processes is just that, speculation based on nothing.
xtian mental gymnastics.
The other major problem with Bart’s conclusion is that he completely ignores all of the sayings of Jesus like “My kingdom is not of this world” etc. If you read through the gospels you’ll see Jesus getting frustrated with the disciples for not understanding what he was saying.
Yes! Bart Erhrman! AMAZING! He is the best contemporary theological historian of our time! We should all be glad that we live in the time of Bart Ehrman!
This is one of the most fascinating interviews I’ve ever listened to.
My thoughts exactly.
I dont believe any of those storys.
But just the lore is amazing
@dodumichalcevski Indeed, mythology is fascinating!
I love listening to Bart Ehrman, but one thing that does not make sense is to first argue that Jesus went to Jerusalem not expecting to be killed and then arguing a minute later that Judas became disillusioned with Jesus because he was talking about being crucified. If Jesus came to Jerusalem not expecting to be killed, why would he talk about being crucified? It seems that Bart Ehrman is dismissing a part of the Bible story only to then use that Bible story to explain Judas' motivation. If you want to argue that Judas was disappointed, what would be more plausible is to say that Jesus went to Jerusalem, not expecting to be arrested and killed. Judas expected that going to Jerusalem meant that the revolution was about to get underway and once he realized Jesus did not intent to start an uprising, Judas was disillusioned and went to the authorities to get Jesus arrested.
Who knows what Jesus said or did or even if Judas really existed? The Gospels are highly mythologized, unreliable historical sources. Think of them as movies of their day. How many movies are historically accurate? I'm sure there was some turmoil. Rome noticed and said "enough".
That's what I got, actually.
The part of him being disillusioned about Jesus's crucifixion is in the NT, not his take as a Historian.
As a Historian it was more "Well we can't read his mind"
I thought he was saying that Bart's opinion is that the historical Jesus did not expect to die in Jerusalem, while the Gnostic Gospel of Judas portrayed Judas' betrayal as related to the disillusionment you mentioned. These two things are separate: one the historical person and one the Gnostic portrayal. These can be contradictory, especially considering most Christians do not view the Gospel of Judas as canon.
@@falsevacuum4667 The Gnostic text is a metaphysical text working on non historical levels of what behind the scenes night look like. This would be called a "soul contract" or "ordained mission" and said it had to be done. You might look at Journey of souls by Michael Newton or Your Soul's Plan by Robert Schwartz to get insight into this.
If Judas even existed,
That’s another perspective.. I guess we will never know.
Thanks Alex, just 40 minutes in and I'm already glued to my screen, scouring the Internet for the past 3 hours reading up on gnosticism. Goddamn this is interesting, so here is my entry level take on what I've read so far: all the names are fucking metal af. Seriously very interesting cosmology. It's crazy to imagine that in a parallel universe, this could have been the version of christianity we are all accustomed to. Also Bart Ehrman is such an amazing communicator. The way he explains this gospel is just so captivating and digestible.
This is amazing to listen to . This guy makes this moment in time easier to understand . Get him back in and talk about anything he wants but especially is opinions on Marc gospel and his opinion . Also what he thinks about what Dr Armon Hillman thinks . This is facinating .
Alex with a stache looks remarkably similar to how I've always pictured Ivan Karamazov. Keep it, sir.
From CosmicSkeptik, to Alex, to, "The Stache."
Busy man.
Oh, Jesus! I didn't know Alex was going to have a side hustle as vintage corn star... I was so hyped for the topic and now... I can't concentrate with that Ron Jeremy moustache.
Sir Oswald Mosley has entered the chat
Oh no, xD i cant unsee it
Just need the black turtleneck to complete the look
😂 good lord in heaven (bugs bunny) I'm using this quote but "I understood that reference"
Making fascism hip again?
Anti Moustache Action
Bart’s theory doesn’t really work, if I’m understanding correctly.
He denies Jesus’ prediction of his own crucifixion, but then says that Judas betrays Jesus because Jesus starts talking about his crucifixion.
FACTS!!!! That is such a good point!
none of this is history, it's all metaphor. that's mostly why none of it makes any logical sense.
his argument in his books
1. Historical Judas saw the plan wasnt working, betrayed Jesus
2. later documentation had to deal with Jesus being surprised which looks bad so they add in a part where Jesus wasnt surprised
3. Now Judas gets the same result but has more evidence supporting his conclusion.
Historical:
a -> B
Gospel:
BIG-A -> B
@@isiahs9312 That argument is so bad it isn't even funny. Does he really think that Jesus thought he could go and start beating people at the Temple, a huge money-making event, and nothing was going to happen?
It's a book.
Bart didn't write it.
The former Christian in me was like, "Wow, every time I hear these gnostic stories they are so wackadoodle." Then I think, "Well actually, so are all the canonical stories..."
Christians with the canonical gospels: "These are all true and written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John within decades of Jesus being crucified!"
Christians with non-canonical gospels: "Those are apocrypha! You don't even know who wrote them and they were written long after the crucifixion!"
Judas couldn’t have written a gospel long after the crucifixion because he killed himself right after he turned Jesus in.
@@jennapecor1865 unless he didn't...
@@88Padilla he did. In acts they had to replace him as an apostle after he committed suicide.
@@jennapecor1865 or they had him replaced because he was no longer with them. It is only in Matthew and Acts that Judas commits suicide, and both with different accounts. No other gospel mentions Judas committing suicide, strangely.
@@88Padilla I literally just said Luke says it in Acts 2. Luke wrote his gospel and Acts.
I watched the National Giographic documentary about the Gospel of Judas and this exact discovery as a young teenager, and it laid the foundation for my atheism years later. This discovery changed my life and me question everything I knew. It opened my eyes to a beautiful universe and to science and to reasoning. Thank you Alex for doing this interview ❤ It brought back memories and triumphs long forgotten 🥹
So you dont believe you are created ?
@@authenticreviewerjeddah4272 why should we? There's no evidence of a creator.
@@magnetiktrax what kind of evidence do you need ?
@@authenticreviewerjeddah4272 tangible, measurable, repeatable evidence. What do you have besides claims?
@@magnetiktraxthe fact that you exist tells you there is a creator. Something CAN NOT come from Nothing. Even Stephen Hawking said that the Big Bang is PROOF there is a God.
I wonder how much more relatable Christianity would be to audiences today if it was allowed to keep 99% of its canon. It would probably have more universal appeal.
one of the lost gospels is highly pornographic.
@@isiahs9312..and you know this because you've seen this "lost gospel" 🤔?
@@isiahs9312 Are you being purposefully vague or just bsing?
@@crazydragy4233 no I am trying not to get my comments reported and blocked. Look it up for yourself Gospel of Philip to start with.
@@paprikash8574 why do I have to explain this to people? Do some basic research. This video is literally about a lost gospel recovered and you people act like this has never happened before.
Many have been found in whole and part.
Bart’s fake laugh always gets me so fascinated. It has lived rent free in my head for years now. I wonder how he developed it, and how close it might be to his real laughter. So many questions and Ive never quite understood why some people have this way of communicating.
What are you smoking
@@KhanSahinkayaI need some of that
Re: The Laugh.
I thought it was just me. I find his laugh oddly off-putting. Even more pronounced in his discussion with Lambert on Mythvision. A channel I rarely visit.
He has a different _father._
This should be spicy. Let's see how it went in about 2 hours.
All-in-all a very balanced take on the historical discovery, authentication process and content without staking out any truth claims. Not bad.
@@Slackariusnever a bad podcast when alex is with bart
I love that Alex is partnering with Ground News. THANK YOU for not just doing random sponsors and actually something cool!
"Hi everyone, I've just started a new mustache."
Interesting that in Islam, they believe that Jesus wasn't crucified and someone else was placed in his place.
He was crucified, died and on the 3rd day resurrected. Followers of Jesus Christ exist today not only because of the bible. It still exist because the spirit of God lives in the lives of the followers and such flames and fire can't be put out merely because of one man saying otherwise.
Religion mean you can believe anything with no evidence
@@Willowdog08 What do you mean by no evidence?
@@kevin.o4983besides the Bible what evidence do you have for Christianity? I’m not being rude it’s an honest interesting question.
@@johnkoay8097 Followers of Jesus Christ exist today because there will always be stupid and gullible people on the planet.
I am near at the same age as Alex, and his mustache scares me, but on a serious note: nice to see Dr. Ehrman back on the show and Judas as a topic is interesting.
Beautiful setting you have here - very scenic
It would be realy interesting if you could make an episode discussing how all the different stories of the Bible are interpreted in the gnostic worldview in more depth.
As a Catholic I found this a very interesting conversation about gnosticism and its platonic flavors. Greek and persian influences were very strong in those times and places...
Not Ehrman admitting that Jesus knew he was going to die in mark with the anointing of oil by the sinful woman whilst elsewhere arguing Jesus was surprised he got killed in the mark account in his developing myth hypothesis
There are two thing I think you're confusing here. One is the narrative of the gospel, where Jesus knows he's going to die because the author did, therefore Judas can be motivated by Jesus talking about his death. The other is the actual historical motivation of Judas, which Ehrman says he doesn't know.
When Ehrman is talking about the anointing story he is trying to figure out what the author of Mark thought was Judas' motivation.
@@jothamstickings4773 Quite a few people got confused by this, so I think maybe it wasn't presented the best. I also feel like there were moments where after the whole thing of Jesus and Christ being two separate things in the gnostic text/story he keeps referring to Christ as Jesus anyway
Amazing! Bart is downright one of the best for his command of knowledge, all the details he remembers but how simply and clearly he explains things. Tremendously enjoyed it. Thank you.
Thoroughly enjoyed this deep dive. Great questions, answers and explanations.
The Iskar (Bulgarian: Искър, pronounced [ˈiskɐr]; Latin: Oescus) is a right tributary of the Danube. With a length of 368 km, it is the longest river that runs entirely within Bulgaria.[2]
just read the Last Temptation(novel) got me interested in Judas. cant wait to listen to this podcast
I love the movie version. Harvey keitel is such a badass judas
This was one of the most sensational, enlightening and thought-provoking theological discussions I've ever listened to. So glad to see everyone in the comments just focussing on the moustache.
Alex rockin' the Magnum P.I. stache #iykyk 😂
OMFG I swear I heard the MPI theme when I first saw it
@@dahveed72Oh god,we're old lmaoo
Wow, this was absolutely superb. I thoroughly enjoyed listening to this.
What's with the Gomez Addams moustache?
"Because he's gomez and we're Morticia feel so happy when I'm wid ya"
Hearing about the mishandling of the text is heartbreaking. The dude keeping it in a PO box and the person FREEZING IT deserve to be put on trial, actually infuriating.
Alex seems so happy talking about gnosticism
Yes but I thought it dissapointing that neither Alex nor Bart talked about the authenticity of the Gospel, especially as it was written in 150 AD.
@@johnwheeler3071 It was written around the right time, it's not like you can authenticate the claims of any of the other gospels either
@@aleksjenner677 That is the date Bart gave. If you don't agree argue with him.
@@johnwheeler3071 Where does specifics about the date of this gospel come into play? The point is that it's as authentic as any of the other gospels in terms of making claims about Jesus
@@aleksjenner677 Most scholars including atheist scholars like Bart Ehrman think the canonical gospels were written between 70 AD and 100 AD. Some scholars think earlier than that. If the Gospel of Judas was written 50 years after the last cannonical gospel I would say it makes a big difference. If time makes no difference then you would have to agree that if the cannonical gospels were written in 500 AD then they should still be seen as authentic as something written in 150 AD.
Thank you so much for having Bart on! 🎉
Wanted to comment on the missing beard. 😊 But you guys noticed and commented too.
I forgot to breathe for a second, because it took me by surprise. 😅
Now, I will continue the video with this interesting topic (reading Dr. Ehrmans book about the gospel of Judas at the moment. How convenient :))
Here we go !! 👍
How could there be something written by the guy who dispatched himself shortly after the so called sell out? Who actually wrote it?
If he was dead?
Love this stuff Alex. Thanks for giving us such good content each week!
Terrific and enjoyable conversation. Where was this filmed? LOVELY garden!
The name “Iscariot” is thought to be derived from the Hebrew term “Ish Kerioth,” which means “man from Kerioth,” referring to a town in Judea.
He said that
Astonishing collab again. You got Bart, ReligionForBreakfast, ESOTERICA...
What I absolutely need now is a collab with Let'sTalkReligion and Al-Muqaddimah!
Would love to hear your insights on the philosophy and general history of Islam
I listen to these fascinating conversations in order to understand myself and others. 🌻🐈⬛🕯️
Alex, your interviews are really incredible! Looking forward to your future work. I expect much from you.
Is Alex becoming french?
He's missing the unearned cultural arrogance and love for expensive food, and he's never run from battle before. 😂
@@Johnnystammy 😂
@@Johnnystammy making fun of the french is just 👌
@@Max_bond69 I'm sorry, but that's a right reserved for Germans (and maybe, potentially other neighbors)
@@daelaenor the British can with how many times they have lost to us
One question. Bart believes that Jesus' intention was to become a King when he came down to Jerusalem. In which case why did Jesus say that he would shortly die? Or is that words put into his mouth by the gospel writers? Just to make it clear, I'm not a believer but I am interested in biblical discussions.
Where was this filmed?? Can't take my eyes off the background
this is a great interview, it's wonderful how much you two enjoy speaking to one another
I'm surprised Alex hasn't made a single video with John Lennox. I'd love to see it in the future someday.
pls👉👈❤
YES. YES. YES.
Lennox is not interesting, he uses far too much Conditioned Reasoning. He is unable to be objective and see the flaws in his methods.
Was thinking that lately myself 👍
Just stumbled upon your channel. You have a new subscriber! Bart is the man. Super interesting conversation.
Capitalist hellscape is where we live. It has ruined everything.
I love how when Alex reads the end of the gospel Bart starts to get so excited he's almost shaking 🤣. You can tell how much passion the both of these men have for the subject!
Loving the mustache look. Very different vibe than usual but works well!
The Backdrop, the mustache - is this beauty, art or just painfully exquisite style?
Alex! You should definitely read "The three versions of Judas" by Jorge Luis Borges. It's a short fiction story with a very interesting thesis
Seconded. You beat me to it. It's easily found online.
Your content with dr Ehrman never ceases to be intellectually stimulating. Thanks!
I just listened to Dr. Ehrman's book of the Gospel of Judas. It was interesting! So nice to watch this video here.
I was fascinated by the Gospel and now ordered the book to read the text of the Gospel in its entirety. Yes, it's a good idea, as Alex points out(!), to get some education on the Gospel beforehand. I was kind of frustrated, that I didn't understand much, when I read it.
When Alex, who is so much more intelligent than I, here said, that he had difficulties to understand, I felt a bit better. 😉
Thank you Alex for all your informative videos, where I learn a lot and which are a pleasure to watch.
And thank you especially for having Dr. Ehrman. I love listening to you two!
Where is this shot? It's so beautiful, feels like a church as well
Alex, I really enjoyed reading your post.
Where was this shot? I am fascinated by the windows and garden.
I notice that Alex has a more fancier comfortable chair and the chair Bart is in makes Bart continuously pull himself up to sit straight .
You can see they're the same 1:44:50
A real power move on Alex's part.
19:35 They’re the same style of chair though?
Same chair.
Unusual nowadays to listen to two very intelligent people. Very enlightening. Thank you.
Interesting conversation.
The title of this vid reads like a Jeopardy answer and question! 😂
I'm new to Alex's channel here and love it so far. Great interviewer and great guest!
Dr. Ehrman missed the point when he says that Jesus thought and told his disciples they would rule over the 12 tribes, as if it meant worldly political rule. The whole point of Jesus ministry was to reveal power in weakness. Read what he says to his disciples in Matthew 20:25-28, he told them that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over you but that that is not how it was supposed to be with them, that he who would be the greatest must be a servant, and that Jesus himself came to serve, not to “rule” in a political worldly sense. The disciples went on to be “rulers” in that they served, in the same way that Jesus did. Dr. Ehrman misses this and just assumes Jesus meant political “rule.”
Also, the idea that Jesus didn't think talking endless crap about the most powerful people in his society, the Pharisees, the rich, and the powerful would not end in his death is laughable. ESPECIALLY after those very same people murdered John the Baptist. I don't know what modern scholars are doing, because it is obvious they are failing at understanding the most basic elements of the teachings of Jesus.
Totally agree
I think that may be possible, but you have to remember what language the gospels were written in. Political ruler may be more likely. Spiritual ruler may be more likely. Maybe something else.
We have no idea what Jesus ever said since the gospels were made up long after Jesus died and by people who most likely never even met Jesus! For that matter we don’t even know for sure Jesus ever existed! He certainly wasn’t the first person to be called the Christ! It is all made up crap!
@@26beegee we know definitely Jesus was a living breathing person, the gospels were written by people that have met Christ and/or were disciples of those who have met Christ and they were written down there is definitely continuity that would be foolish to ignore
I would love to know where Alex believes the historicity of the Bible starts and stops. A video on that would be wonderful. Perhaps there already is?
How can you, as a historian, say that the Gospels are wrong about Jesus knowing he's going to die, but then appeal to the Gospels as a source to say Jesus thought he was never going to die and rule as a king?
You're putting words in his mouth he didn't say. He never said that Jesus thought he was NEVER going to die. He simply said he didn't come to Jerusalem to die.
@@LarsPallesen I tried to call you a naughty word, but youtube stopped me. Quit dodging the point of what I said, you know I didn't mean to say Jesus thought he would NEVER die, geez.
Sources are complicated yo. You can think the biographies of Leif Erickson are wrong about most stuff while still using them to glean historical information lmao.
@@benjaminjenkins2384 Yeah, but in this case, he's believing that the text is an accurate record of the words of Jesus in one instance, and then in another instance he believes it's an inaccurate record of the words of Jesus. Just seems unnecessarily arbitrary. Why believe one and not the other? He didn't really lay out a good argument for that. Just my opinion.
What is so hard to understand that a document can have both historical and fictional elements to it? As he says in the video, any time you encounter a saying by Jesus in the Bible, scholars have to ask themselves if it is legitimate or not. They apply their methods separately on every line and so will find some cases where the evidence is good for it being legitimate and others where the evidence is not good.
Bart is the GOAT when it comes to biblical scholarship. Alex is no slouch either.
Why was Jesus alone in a garden at 4am with a naked child?
He was lured there by the child with bread
@@michaelkendall1263If you can check the ancient greek on that. You will see reference to the purple.
It is understood that the person in question was in fact John Mark. He is the writer of the gospel and the only one who records it. He was the only one who knew! Hardly surprising he would conceal his identity!
Excellent interview. Asked proper questions and allowed Bart to explain
Whose house is that?! Is Alex a millionaire already?
Please talk to James Valliant!!! He is the most knowledgeable person I’ve heard on the origins of Christianity in the first century.
You need to interview Tom Holland.
At 1:06
I don't know why Prof Ehrman says that there wasn't a village called "Kerioth"?
There are two Kerioth mentioned in the Old Testament.