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Sport vs Self Defense BJJ, Is There Really a Difference?
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- Опубліковано 18 сер 2024
- The debate between 'sport' and 'self defense' BJJ has been overblown because good jiu-jitsu is always better than bad jiu-jitsu. If your focus is on self defense then find the best BJJ school you can and, if necessary, supplement that training with a little bit of boxing, kickboxing or MMA training to become comfortable in the striking zone rather than going to a lesser school that claims to teach special 'self defense' BJJ techniques. The magic is all in the training against resistance and dealing with pressure, and it is much easier to adjust technique on the fly than it is to suddenly develop the capacity to deal with someone who is using all their strength, energy and willpower to crush you!
Stephan Kesting
www.grapplearts...
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I have to disagree Stephan. I’ve trained at sport schools that never once showed how to defend punches from guard or even how to clinch. Yeah if you’re a sport practitioner in a fight and get the perfect double leg to mount etc. you’ll be fine. But what the Gracie’s are saying is what happens worse case scenario in a fight you end up on bottom and the guy is throwing bombs and you have never trained to deal with punches. You are not suddenly going to be able to use sport where there is no concept of distance management or defending strikes. Also in a stressful situation you rely on muscle memory. So you’re going to fall back on what you always do in rolling without thinking about it, whether that is berimbolo, reverse de le riva, etc. And a lot of those sport guards will get you in trouble when someone is throwing punches. Also if you’re at the right “self defense” school you will do plenty of live rolling and should be rolling with punches occasionally. To me it’s not actually self defense jiujitsu it’s just jiujitsu. Jiujitsu is an art not a sport and should include all elements of the art not just one aspect of it.
wlbernie perfect response.
He said that it’s not the way of the gym but the quality of it and a good gym might teach practical techniques. He also said that regardless of if you’re in a sport gym or self defense gym you should actually up the pace and spar with strikes.
Even just developing basic knowledge of doing jiujitsu against strikes makes it highly applicable in self defense encounters. I’ve seen videos of guys pulling guard and having their face punched 10 times HARD and still manage to choke the opponent out. And many of those guys use sloppy technique to make me believe that they’re new to jiujitsu.
If you are in full guard or clinch and don't know how to avoid punches (via distance management), you're not in a sport based school. You are simply in a shit based school ;)
NOBODY pulls de la riva guard or inverted guard in a selfe defense situation (Unless he is retaeded and insane) ;)
Most of the tough guys are doing competitions, because they are strong, brave, can take a punishment, and have a badass mindset. They search for challanges and spar with intensity and resistance against other strong guys 4-7 days a week. Most of the weak guys are afraid of bad guys, that´s the reason they do self defense 1-3 times a week with other weak guys. In the end, most self defense guys are afraid of competition guys. I will always bet on the competitor if 2 people are somewhat comparable
strokerman01
I bet on the trained competition guy in a street fight against a regular BJJ self defense guy, when they are training for the same amount of years and same weight
I agree with you for the most part, but I've been in too many academies where the emphasis is 100% on competition. Class all too often begins with sessions like "okay, so he's got knee on belly....", and situations like this are not really going to help a whole lot with defending oneself on the street (unless you're defending against BJJ guys).
I agree that a BJJ competitor (even better if he has some MMA experience) would probably have the best chance of surviving on the street, but for someone who isn't interested in competing the dichotomy can be really important.
With respect, I have to disagree.
Very simple way to end this debate. Rickson, Rorion, Royce, Royler, Pedro are all self defence focused, all have videos of them using Jiu Jitsu successfully against other Martial Arts (UFC being a prime example). I bet the reason why Mr Kesting started BJJ was due to one of these videos.
I have yet seen and am having trouble finding a video of Mr Kesting using his skills against another martial art practitioner (other than BJJ) in an act of self defence (Unscripted). If there is one, please link it below.
Until then, I will listen to those who have successfully used and shown how to use BJJ in a self defence aspect.
The club where I learned judo was an absolute bear pit full of excellent judoka. Self defence or goshin jitsu was never practiced. Only nagekomi uchikomi and hard randori both on the ground and standing. Most of the Dan grades who trained there were bouncers. Hard club judo was more than enough for these guys to do their jobs.
Away from the club we'd occasionally get the gloves on and hit the heavy bag, the pads and do a bit sparring.
No preset self defence stuff ever.
A lot of people who prefer the self defence angle like the idea of fighting without wanting to fight. Learning to keep fighting with stars in your eyes after you've been smashed with a big uchimata or seoi is good for self defence.
The techniques of judo and bjj are the teeth but its randori or hard sparring that gives it the bite. And it's the bite that makes self defence work.
Ironflag Tim ...totally agree with you mate !!
Of course. But if you fall in your guard with a guy who may be stronger/bigger and you haven't trained punch control in your life, you may get punched to death pretty easily. There have been many (actually I don't know how many exactly) exceptional competition grapplers who have been badly beaten in MMA. And it's only MMA, not even a real fight you know. BJJ practitioners who can't handle punches (and believe you have to TRAIN, you have to spar with that punches, it's not enough like figuring out how you would control your opponent arms if he decided to start throwing punches at you) are real. Of course you may learn self defense bjj in a sports based school, but you WILL learn it in, say, a Gracie academy. And you will be taught good bjj too.
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So I don't know if you agree or disagree with Stephan, but the thing is there is a real difference between sport bjj and self defense bjj. And by self defense bjj one means solid, high percentage bjj, considering defending and attacking with elbows, punches, headbutts, etc, and with a special emphasis on the fact that all fights start standing and you will have to be able to use and defend strikes if you want to be able to take your opponent down.
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Training a few times a week special self defense drills and apply them in sparring using strikes makes an enormous difference with just training bjj, start all fights on the ground or pulling guard, not worrying about strikes or even slams, and thinking in points, timespans and rules. If you do the second and pretend to be able to just shake it all off your head in a self defense fight and magically develop the punch control experience from your prodigious brain instead of from hours of sparring and drilling... well maybe if you-re a big guy you still have a chance. But someone like me would most probably end up in the hospital.
I hear what you are saying Stephan and I think that there is some merit to it, but in my humble and comparatively inexperienced opinion, I think you are skipping several key things in making your point. 1) I don’t hear any of the leading voices of the resurgent “self-defense JJ” camp (to clarify, I follow Gracie Academy/University, Rickson, Kama JJ, and some Relson/Valente here and there and am using them as my reference with this topic) claim that one should only train the core self-defense (SD) techniques. They argue that one should start with those and always go back to them along the journey in order to refresh, but I have never heard them state that they should only train these. Actually, their argument is that more and more schools of today aren’t training these at all, which is why we’ve seen this noticeable push for the basic techniques to be infused back into mainstream BJJ. As an example, watch the episode of “Rolled Up” with Rickson and the one with Dave Kama. I believe they both stated examples of black belts that they have encountered in their travels that do not know basic escapes such a headlock escape. I realize that no one on the sports JJ side believes that some type of inverted guard strategy is going to work in a street fight. They don’t believe that and the proponents and leaders of the re-emerging SD focus aren’t claiming that the sport side believes that either. That said, I do have to believe Rickson Gracie and Dave Kama when they say that they have noticed a lack of fundamental knowledge, even among black belts, while traveling and teaching seminars.
2) I think you are assuming that the SD proponents have a less than desirable motivation and think you are applying that unfairly as a way to argue against them. To use Rickson and Dave Kama again as examples, these two are by no means publicity hounds. My understanding is that Rickson has been very private, much to the disappointment of most of his admirers, but has only resurfaced with his newfound mission to re-introduce what he feels has been lost from Gracie JJ. I may not be completely correct about that, but the point is that it is disingenuous and I think inaccurate to try to use something that we can’t know, like motivation, as a critique. As for Kama, I assume most JJ lovers don’t even know who he is and he’s one of the “Dirty Dozen.” I think that if any of the Gracies on the SD side wanted more spotlight and more money, then they could easily immerse themselves further into the JJ competition or MMA scene and accomplish that.
3) You proposed a poor dichotomy in order to compare the two schools of thought. You gave an example of a SD-based school in which the students didn’t spar against strikes.They merely rehearsed the techniques. I am not sure if that example even exists, but in my experience training as well as in what I have seen online, all of the schools and teachers that I mentioned (not sure about Relson’s or the Valentes’ schools) do safe sparring against a striking opponent with boxing gloves as well as conventional rolling in which any type of technique can be used. Of course, if given the choice between a “SD school” (which would be in name only if they didn’t test their skills against striking IMHO) that only rehearses the technique versus a more sports based school that allows the student to undergo more strenuous rolling, the latter of the two would be the better choice for SD carryover. The obvious problem with this example is that you chose the worst version of one and the best of the other.
4) Helio Gracie taught that the techniques of priority must have three aspects: 1) Allow one to be punch safe, 2) they incorporate natural body movements, 3) they allow for energy efficiency. Admittedly, my JJ and martial arts knowledge is minuscule compared to yours, however I am a licensed physical therapist of almost 10 years and have worked with adults across the age spectrum and believe (for more than one reason) that a more traditional JJ school (such as something more directly from the Helio school of thought) would suit the largest number of average adults out there, especially ones without a significant athletic background. This point could be a long discussion unto its own, but I believe that Gracie JJ was meant for the masses and specifically for smaller people to be able to defend themselves against larger, stronger provocateurs. People are busy and they need things to be as practical as possible. Time and learning efficiency are important (especially as they relate to finances). My sense is that most people who want to learn JJ do so because of the influence of the UFC and what Royce did 25 years ago. They want to know how to fight. Period. That said, a school that has a SD base (but that is not exclusively self-defense oriented and allows for exploration) but revisits and tests a student’s SD ability against sparing makes the best use of the Average Joe / Jane’s time and dollar. On the other hand, a muscular 190 pound, single, 25-year-old male purple belt from Marcelo Garcia’s Academy will do just fine in a one on one weaponless street encounter...but that guy isn’t representative of the general population in a variety of ways. Peace.
Everybody has a game plan until you are getting smashed by elbows in the face on bottom. Just look at Vagner Rocha smaking the crap out of people and you will see, there are a lot of moves that expose you to heavy strikes that you would not want to use in a real world fight where there are no rules. Just my two cents...
That's so true. The BS content coming from Stephan is dangerously increasing.
For real fighting train at a gym with an active mma fight team. Bjj for mma is different. If your gym doesnt have fighters or atleast activly spar then your bjj will end up wartered down sport crap.
I mean you could say Ronda Rousey did apply hip throw to armbar effectively. She did train with the Gracies
I don't think she used an O Goshi - it was a Harai Goshi IIRC, which is a much trickier throw to master.
Plus she was a high level Judoka so there's that. Not everyone sticks around to get to that level
I'd argue almost nobody does.You're definitely right though
@@StephanKesting if harai goshi is trickier to master then that should make performing ogoshi even easier. In Gracie in action they pulled off this throw repeatedly. Would it work against a top UFC fighter - maybe not, but I think it would work on the street
The jiu-jitsu trained by the Gracies between themselves is very different and more complete than this sport jiu-jitsu were you only train half of the curriculum of the jiu-jitsu that you can use in competition. ... the Fadda jiu-jitsu and Gracies train the full version of jiu-jitsu not only ground fighting or grappling. ... Remember that Helio Gracie and carlson gracie use to say that jiu-jitsu it's much more than grappling and ground fighting. . It's all about survival and lifestyle. .. Competition it's a little bit of the jiu-jitsu world. ..
this says it all
First line of self defense is good posture, athletic build and an air of self confidence. You get those from sport jiu jitsu. You will have a more muscular build than you otherwise would and unless you are wearing a parka, that will show. When somebody begins to threaten you, you are much less likely to panic and that will be noted ( in most cases ). I think that in many case, a "victimizer" will move on to easier prey.
If the action begins, you will likely be stronger, in better shape generally and you will be able to do the things you want to do with efficiency. You will be less panicked and won't gas because of that. As long as you have your "basic" game worked out and have thought about mixing in strikes, you should be OK. I usually play bottom ( geezer here ) but when I do play top they guys complain about the pressure so I know I am good for the street. Biting is the one thing I would be concerned about and need to correct for.
I do have a pal who is a slick toreando type who will murder you on points but never threaten a sub and he happened to have a fight with a druggy that was caught on his own house camera. He did struggle because of the over specialized nature of his game and his unwillingness to just consolidate side. He will typically pass your guard like a knife through butter and then disengage so he can do it again. He took the guys back and handled the situation but it could have been a lot easier. He didn't sink a choke or strike and the guy was out of control. My pal just ended up with banged up knees and elbows from the concrete.
gracie barra does at least one selfdefense technique at the start of every basic and mixed class with strikes included. They also produce some of the best competition guys in the world. I think a good sports jiujitsu guy would fare much better in a streetfight than someone who only does selfdefense and does limited sparring
Rickson gracie affiliate schools when we talk about self defense,its not only those techniques,hmtheres headlock escapes,escapes from worst position,rear naked choke escapes all of these using full pressure sparring along with mounted punches,closing the distance clinch and takedown and control.i think the term self defense in this is misused and misinterpreted when it comes to jujitsu
Fully agree. However training from standing and learning to close distance is way underutilized in pretty much any school. If I had to choose between two equally GOOD BJJ schools - I would probably train in the self defense oriented.
Vojkan Trifunovic Gracie Jiu Jitsu trains closing the distance, throws, and grappling with striking all the time.
Sure, if that's your focus and the schools are equally good then that's exactly what you should do!
Yeah, but im 51 - if I was 21 and into competition, my choice could be different.
I dont get it. You say you agree but also say you would train in the self defense oriented school because you think the sports oriented underutilizes certain things. So you are indeed admitting that the sport oriented bjj doesn't use things which are useful in a street fight -> you recognise the difference between the sport bjj and self defense bjj.
And well obviously you won't choose a BAD bjj school just because it is self defense oriented. Nobody would do that. BJJ schools can be good or bad independently of their orientation.
Stephan, you have put out some good content. You were wrong to dismiss the overhead knife defense. In close-quarters knife combat, wrist control is primary concern. In order to further stabilize the attacker, a figure four armlock is the ultimate in neutralizing the hand of the attacker. The fact that it comes from overhead is negligible. A drill like that works for a knife thrust from any direction. This may not apply to civilians in their everyday life, but military and law enforcement find techniques like that very valuable in close quarters combat situations. You may never see it, and you are lucky. Cheers, thanks for the vids.
You stated this very well. I am ex-military combat civil engineering and I know that it works in realistic training only. I would wear arm shields but if I did not have them on in a conflict then we were just taught to eat it because we were likely to get cut. Just apart of the job.
I totally DISAGREE!!! My experience in visiting, talking with and asking questions of, different schools is this-if you say you are interested in SELF-DEFENSE ONLY-certain schools (tourney-focused/based) will say, "Of course we do self-defense-in fact, that's where we'll start you!!!" And they do. For the first week. You may learn a mount escape, an armlock, maybe an RNC. And then it rapidly devolves from there. This has happened to me TWICE before I started researching-I know, my bad! The sad thing is is they'll tell you anything to get you "enrolled" and paying the first month. After a week of so, I'm thinking, "hey wait a minute-I don't want to learn de la riva guard. I want to know to protect myself if I'm attacked!" TOO LATE!!! You ask for your money back saying this is NOT what I signed up for-they say, "Sorry, no refunds." So, NO stephan-you are WRONG!!! There IS a huge difference in the focus of certain schools, the Jiu-Jitsu, the attitudes, etc. If you're interested ONLY in the self-defense aspect of Jiu-Jitsu and have absolutely NO desire to EVER compete, than you MUST go to a school that focuses ONLY on the self-defense aspect like Gracie-Torrance, CA. I've got NO problem with sport BJJ, but to say they are "almost" the same is like saying a VW is "almost" like a Porsche.
Learn MMA from trainers that actually compete, they will only teach you what works and what doesn't, against both strikes and grappling. Make sure they have full contact sparring, otherwise everything you learnt will go out the window once you get punched in the head.
I agree with you sport bjj is good but old school gjj was trained for fighting especially in vale tudo the ground game as well as the standup of gracie jujitsu is awesome.intrained for law enforcement so the focus is more there for me
This video is an answer to me. I heard a lot about the sport vs self-defense in bjj. Some of the video bloggers advice not to go to a bjj sports dojo. But in the end, good bjj beats bad bjj.
All you need to be ready for some extreme situations are three things. Repeating well-known basics, roll with different opponents and participate in tournaments. That's how you might be prepared.
I agree with what you said basically 100%, and I mostly see myself as self defense based. BJJ will work in a self defense situation pretty well as taught in most good BJJ schools since the basis of BJJ is real fighting. The one caveat I have with sport BJJ is that it tends to ignore some realities of real fighting and that can build false expectations and blind spots IF you don't learn to include some more realistic training as well (as you pointed out). In either case, well trained with BJJ will always beat poorly trained in anything else, whether in a real fight or not. At a higher level, if you wish to go into more MMA style fighting, BJJ is a great base to start from.
Typical point of view of someone who hasn't had to fight REAL FIGHTS.
Thank you. I worked this out for myself not too long ago. I recently started my BJJ journey. My academy of choice, more sport based. The head instructor the only actual Brazilian BJJ black belt in the area. Has won major and minor IBJJF championships, plus has connections to UFC and MMA fighters who train under him. His school is definitely competition based, as I'm a naturally competitive person this suits me. However Rickson Gracie is a hero of mine, and he's spent years bashing the sport side of things in favour of self defence. The apparent REAL jiu jitsu. Because of this I've had my doubts. Have I made the right choice?? Etc etc. Only to find out he has now released his own self defence course online. It all makes sense now. As you say he has a vested interest in self defence. For a while there I was very conflicted. As it is I'm happy with my choice of school. I've even recently entered my first competition. As far as stand up, well my academy also offers judo and wrestling classes. Stuff we know works for controlling and taking down opponents to use Bjj techniques. At the end of the day it's each to there own, this US vs. THEM stuff though is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. Wether you train self defence or sport. It's all jiu jitsu. Let's just enjoy the training. Thanks for the video.
Yes! And just to take it one step further, I have long argued that BJJ competition is great preparation for self defense, even if you just go out there and pull guard. That's because it teaches you how to function under pressure, which is amplified when you're in an unfamiliar setting, with your teammates and coach watching, and going against someone that you don't know.
Stephan Kesting Indeed. To add to add to your point competition has helped my training. After suffering a defeat I've since went back to the gym with added focus. I ended up under side control and mounted. Now I've been working more escapes, as well as everything else. Rolling is one thing, even in an academy full of killers. Nothing compares to the real thing though. Everything felt 5x harder under the lights. The grips, the takedowns, the mount etc. I'm really glad I competed. It's given me added focus to training and as you say is great preparation for a potential real situation. Lastly, I've noticed no one on the other side of the fence seems to bash self defence. The fire is only coming from one direction. It's all a bit sad I feel.
Alan Johnstone my friend Rickson is right to dump on the sport side because it is not what jiu jitsu represents. And if you think his motive was to make money on dvds you are sadly mistaken, He could make 10X more money on the sport side off his name and reputation alone. The REAL jiu jitsu is what his father taught and that's what Rickson swears by. Also Rickson is 400-0 in sport and undefeated in both mma and vale tudo. What the fuck has Stephan Kasting ever done and who is he to say what works in a real fight when he's never fuckin done one!
AHAHAHAHAHAH 400-0 and you actually believe that!. Even fucking Helio Gracie himself, who did all sort of stuff to market bjj, admitted the record was manipulated.
Vision ya I admit it sounds a bit out there but I looked into it and no one was able to debunk it. But let's just say for arguments sake he was 1 of the best at sport.
A lot of people here who are in disagreement with Stephen are misunderstanding his argument. He is comparing self defense BJJ to sport BJJ, Not self defense JJJ to sport BJJ. Having trained in both myself, I will concur that Stephen is absolutely correct here. I do wish he went a little more into the main difference between the two as management of distance. He did mention it, but this is the most important and interesting difference between the two. He is also correct in sparring some MMA to calibrate this difference to adjust for striking. This is how the pros adjust. Less "guard centric" mind set etc...
I respect this gentleman. He’s very well spoken and can articulate his views, opinions and instructions. I don’t know why he keeps saying “magical” techniques. They’re just Jiu Jitsu techniques developed by the Gracie’s. It’s not complicated. Manage distance. Close distance. Get to the ground. Control. Subs. Nothing magical about it. I attend a Gracie Jiu Jitsu Jitsu school. The self defense is early white belt. It’s true, a student does not roll or RD until taking each class three times. After that there is reflex development which is your jits vs an untrained attacker. But often the class will simply roll. Blue and up is all sport or jits vs jits. Admittedly, I’ve never belonged to a sport bjj school. My first school I’m 2000 was a fight team and I don’t remember there being sport school. They were all from what I remember fight teams and it was assumed that the people in my class were going to fight in the cage one day. We weren’t training for bjj tournaments although I know a couple of my classmates competed in Desert Quest. I myself have competed twice under Gracie Jiu Jitsu or Gracie academy. Once gi and once no gi. I have a silver and a gold medal in my local tournaments. So in conclusion, there is nothing magical about self defense schools. It’s just a different focus. My apologies for the long read.
My way of thinking was to make the decision to play a very "fundamental" BJJ game. Get the takedown/throw, secure a dominant top position and go for a submission from there, play an active guard game constantly threatening sweeps and submissions and focus on MMA proven guard work. The way I see it if you can make that work against the guys pulling out all the craziest tricks they can think of that only make sense in pure grappling competition then you're probably exceptional at those core jiu jitsu skills and applying them on anyone else will be easy.
Good explanation. The knife defenses can be trained live with a wooden knife. I found out quickly my block needed to be an inch further out when the point cut me right between the eyes in Hapkido. 😆
Live training (with safety) is really where it's at!
Few people live train knife defence realistically, if they do they would realise just how difficult it really is an how up against it you are.
On of the main mistakes is is they treat a knife attack as is it is some similar action and the other hand does nothing. Where as footage of knife attacks show that the the hand not only in involve but often leads, grabbing, etc. They are not trying to "fight" you they want to kill or mame you, and they are not about to let you get away.
Proper knife defence is about doing what you can to limit damage increase your odd of getting out of there. It is not about smooth "flawless" hapkido like moves.
A lot of the thing you rely on defensively with open hand technique go out of the window. Think about he profile and what is available to get stabbed and cut. You ca train to get punched in the abdomen, people are capable of taking hit, Getting stabbed on the other hand is real easy and you are arm not much defence. Not getting stabbed it the hard part. Chances are you have already been stabbed or cut before you react, you can bleed out more just through exertion.
I have seen very competent and knowledgeable martial artist get knife defence completely wrong, becuase they have not being realistic about what a knife attack is.
There is also quite a bit of different between small knifes, medium hunting style knifes and large hacking/machete/smatchet or mele style weapons. Same from improvised weapon like keys and bottles.
Wooden knifes tend to be a different weight and have a different feel/grip from a knife. wooden/plastic/aluminium training knife are all tool that can be used. But they are training tools not perfect analogues.
You are not going to penetrate deep into the body with the with the same sort of forces of a real attack.
In a way the plastic/rubber knife with flex on the blade, give you a better idea of how the knife might penetrate. Depending to he type of wooden knife you could cause serious bruising broken ribs , or puncture wounds with wooden training knife, to get the same effect. An effect which is still a fraction of the force of a actual stab..
There has to be some intent to train effectively.
You could have a train knife which retreats into the handle, preferable where the spring has a little resistance. These obviously can't be much of a point.
One way to train slashes/touches is aluminium knifes where the cutting edge has some felt wrapped round. Then you apply lipstick liberally to the felt. wearing white clothing help, but it shows up pretty well anyway.
paul thomas I’ve trained with rubber, plastic, & wooden in Kindai Ryu Jiu Jitsu & Hapkido. The advantage of the wooden knife is it hurts. The rubber knife you’ll never remember getting hit with it. Get struck with the wooden knife & you build your reflexes.
Yes it is true that that wooded training knives can hurt. So what? The problem is hapkido/traditional juijitsu isn't training hand to knife in realistic way. The whole basis of the attack is flawed, so if it is getting through then the odds aren't in you favour once it is more realistic. Even a skilled fencer who can thrust in an open and unattached way, wouldn't use a knife in that way if they really had to use one. There is a disconnect between how people think knives might be used and how people act when they want use a knife in anger. So whey people design techniques against stereotyped attack they haven't researched what knife attacks are like.
So yes there are uses for wooden an aluminium knifes in training, once progressed. However if you only do that the you will train in a limited way. Chances are you can't use intent, becuase you care for the safety of your training partner, and even a training knife is an effective weapon with enough force.
However if just give them student and they are training realistic, it will hurt but it will hurt multiples times over. Because you are getting repeatedly stabbed. That kind of moment is difficult to simulate is both a controlled way realistic way, becuase realistic is frenzied
The idea that of "if it hurts then you learn", is simplistic to say the least. Yes there is some truth to that kind of conditioning, but reactions people can make are vast. You may learn to react better that one instance or at least carry out the drill, but the attack in ongoing an persistent. You don't need much to know that a stab isn't good.
What striker learns initially is not so much how apply the protect/evade and counter drills becuase that takes time, they learn what is like to be hit so they don't panic. You can't really give people want it like to be stabbed until you have been stabbed.
2 years ago a student of mine(also a black belt in Judo) had a street fight.He ended the fight with a Kosi Guruma as a reaction to the first punch.The attacker was about 50 years old and 180 pounds,my student is about 140 max around 20.The attacker fainted when he was dropped and an ambulance came to take him.
Also about 7 years ago i was attacked by a guy with a club and did the basic tech to have him in a amerikana on his knees.
Some techs from the Gracies are a bit dated but some others work great.O goshi Tech are amazing and you see alot of hip throws in MMA too.
My point is the techs you said that didnt work saved me and my student,or at least modified versions of them.
So a 20 yr old beat a guy 50 yrs older....thats nothing to brag about. Its expected. Now the guy that attacked you with a club is an impressive win.
It isa shame when you have to toss a seniour to ground to handle the situation
Watch gracie in action 1 & 2 and then tell me a hip throw won't work. More to the point even wrestlers use hip tosses. You gotta be careful about making these sweeping statements.
All my cadets and college WRESTLER use hip throws. I wrestled in college and I will grab a Clinch regardless what you do. I will throw you on your head if my hip pop underneath you. We see hip throw at every competition at NAGA.
Thank you Sir for this video. I have been training mix martial art since more than 3 years but since last few months our Sir started with few techniques of jujutsu. Many times I try to find certain videos regarding technique details but often now due to jiujitsu been mostly acknowledged as sport certain techniques are banned and sometimes I feel the video instructions are not in details as compared to the not banned techniques.
Thank you so much for this video once again.
Thanks for discussing this topic.
All schools should train both aspects. But it can be hard to balance both, especially with a companion pretty much every weekend. But I agree sparing or live rolling is important
Krav Maga here... I completely agree! How you train matters. Sport BJJ, like all combat sports, is fast and cannot be 100 percent simulated in training. Yet the fight speed and resistance is a good teacher. Transferring to the street is a matter of added variables, which also cannot be simulated 100 percent in training. Combat sport is good for keeping that edge. No style, no magic. Just train
Absolutely!
I like the stuff you teach on your apps and I like the 36 Gracie combative techniques. Both are great. One thing I agree with you is that the standing armlock that the Gracies teach (lesson 34) will never work. Better to use the arm drag that you have demonstrated. I would love to get private lessons from both you and Rener and Ryron. I would learn a lot either way that would be applicable to me surviving a violent encounter with some nutcase on the street.
Good thing you didn't write this article sooner or that hip toss I did on Sunday against a violent offender wouldn't have worked. I didn't know that wouldn't work.(figure four against the knife)I guess I just got lucky 3 times. Of course, that was the 90's, so no one knew it wouldn't work. Hip tosses have been used many times in the ufc and other events. I am so glad a well-respected instructor has put me straight. In the past 40+ years of learning I have been told how judo was real and boxing wouldn't work in a street fight, then karate and kung fu were the real deal, ninjitsu was the ultimate, JKD, Kickboxing, Kali, Hapkido, then BJJ until a wrestler won, then a kickboxer took out the wrestler, then a Karateka KO'd a kickboxer, a wrestler and a BJJ Black Belt in one night, the next fight lost to a Judoka. Resistive training is a style of training, sparring is a way to master that under pressure. This myth of the duel,(Street Fighter)mentality is only a stage of TRAINING. I love the sport, the art is beautiful but I was recently a guest at a club that produces many fine champions, the instructor told me two of his champions were hospitalized after a run in with a drunken 55+-year-old, overweight biker. He told me how his two students were demoralized because they weren't prepared for that level of violence. Almost as bad as not teaching an escalating level of resistance to self-defense students. Some do it for sport, some for fun, some for recreation, some for self-defense. Balance your overall training, few people ever get into fights so they can pursue the sporting aspects without ever thinking of self-defense. On the other end of the spectrum people who need certain skills not ring applicable. The fundamentals up to blue belt are for fighting non-BJJ people. Once you hit blue it's refinement and mostly learning how to defeat other grapplers. Advanced martial arts are for defeating other martial artists, it is a sad state that someone well versed in martial ways forgets that. But that is the business, I remember years ago Matt Thorton said a sidekick was a useless kick and couldn't be used for real. Or in the early UFC how kicking was pointless. Once emotion is introduced almost anything can happen in an A- Social conflict. Ask yourself what you would study in a war zone, a hypothetical zombie apocalypse or a survival situation. Then ask that same question of someone living in a 1st world nation with a lot of leisure time and a natural very competitve drive. It is more the method of training the technique than the technique. Of course my point of veiw is skewed because my wife recently informed me Iam a life long asshole, and that's the real reason so many people try to punch me out
tnx for calling out the Gracies. Head up Stephan you are great
The only reason you do BJJ is because of Self Defense Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Remember the UFC 1 Royce?
Have you forgotten? Why so much hate? Be appreciative and consider the crazy possibility that Rickson and Royce Gracie are right and not you.
I do Sport BJJ, but based on Self Defense BJJ.
ua-cam.com/video/6344FL3T-bU/v-deo.html
That was one the best explanations I've heard!
I'm sorry but the way you train is the way you fight
LUIS FILIPE Silva You must not have watched the whole video. If your training for vale/tudo mma you do just that! The stuff they were doing 20 years ago (some of it not even legal anymore) would not work today! Vale tudo has he evolved! What you’re talking about is not necessarily wrong... not the argument the gentleman was making! I actually understand where he’s coming from!! You have a bunch of charlatans today getting their asses kicked.. making statements like well our BJJ is for The street! Renzo Gracie did an interview making fun of this! He said 20-30years ago in Brazil his family made fun of people like this! Now One side of his family is making the same statements today! boxing is a very limited sport... wrestling as well!! I have seen both arts clean out bars!!! This is usually an argument people who can’t fight like to make! Or people who have some kind of agenda......
@@carlobella1850 you right indeed ... my bad ...
Roger gracie and Marcelo Garcia are the best bjj practioners in history and they haven't done well at all in mma. Understandably mma isn't street self defence but it's as close to it as we can get in today's society. Ryan hall is another example of someone who's bjj hasn't done particularly well when strikes were involved. I definitely agree that sparring against resistance is much better than rehearsing choreographed sequences but those in sports bjj who didn't practice with strikes earlier on In their careers struggle to overcome muscle memory of sporting techniques which have no application when striking is involved
I found Hall's bjj to work pretty well in mma. It may feel boring for sure, but just if his opponent doesn't want to engage.
.
But I completely agree with your point. Sports bjj is obviously only suited for sports bjj. Great practitioners have failed in MMA because of that, didn't expect this opinion from Stephan.
IMHO (again) one reason why this distinction often gets overlooked is that a lot of people train sport BJJ at MMA academies where they also have striking and wrestling classes so it doesn’t matter so much if the BJJ class doesn’t cover self defence stuff
Wow he straight called em out haha you are a Savage sir, my respect
Or maybe a mix of BJJ and Muay Thai. Maybe add in some boxing and wrestling concepts that compliment your BJJ and Muay Thai. Again not saying any of this WILL work. Just ideas.
Excellent video🤙🏽
Hi Stephan!
So I was wondering, in a self defense situation (let's assume you have to fight a single person and can't flee), what would be your go-to standup game? Should I just feel out the rhythm of the guy or should I just shoot a single/double, try to establish back control standing etc. right away? Presuming I'm going to mainly grapple instead of punch/kick. I really like your videos and this one especially shed some light on a very important topic that get's discussed a lot without there almost ever being a consensus. Also would you consider yourself to be from the "sport" or the "combative/self defense" backround.
Cheers!
Sport, by default and necessity, has to assume one opponent who’s roughly your own size, and is absolutely unarmed, and that there is a referee to bail you out if he does something off limits like a knee to the crouch or gouge to the eye. It also assumes in most instances you’re going to have a mat.
Self defense Ju-Jitsu, properly taught, assumes none of those things, and makes you drill and spar a pressure test for all of them regularly.
I agree with what Stephan says here, pressure testing/ sparring is vital and the sport aspect of martial arts do tend to get an undeserved bad rap from some self-defence circles. However, I would add that the main difference between a sport vs. a self-protection based club should be the instruction of non-combative skills. If you're not learning about the law in your area, verbal deescalation, social and predatory violence, signs of abusive relationships etc. then you're not practicing self-protection, you're doing martial arts. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that provided we don't confuse the two.
I agree that 'self defense' is a much larger topic than simply one-on-one consensual streetlights. A topic for another video!
I look forward to it! :)
We do knife; gun and strangulation attacks in gracie bjj
It's not about the techniques primarily, it's about the training methods. For example do you spar with a rubber knife thrown into the mix? If so, then great, you're learning how to use the techniques against real pressure
it's basically the individual;s job to descern what is or isnt wise to use out of their toolset in a given situation. bjj should optimally be crossed trained with a stand up art and boxing. and sometimes you dont want to be on the ground. but if you do end up on the ground, there stuff bjj sport people do there does work.
Ogoshi doesn't work in a real self-defense or MMA? ua-cam.com/video/EYh4IRcxXUE/v-deo.html -- Some fair points in the video. Randori is essential. No debate there. Nonetheless, there were some gross oversimplifications and some points that looked pretty dogmatic. The idea that hip throws such as ogoshi and koshi guruma (and related throws) don't work in live sparring, etc. flies in the face of a very long and objective history of people using said techniques in sparring, sport, and self-defense.
i don't think that's what he said. More like: hip throws require a lot of skill/training to work reliably and are also riskier (you give your back), much more than a single or double, which are thus more suited to self defence.
Vision, fair enough although there is a lot to be said about the subject as opposed to having a dismissive "I've never seen it work" (presumably with the implication that it doesn't work). I would definitely concede that a single or double leg takedown (even lazy ones) often require less training than a classic hip throw such as Ogoshi but the doesn't mean it isn't useful. Your position (that it requires a lot of skill/training) is a bit more nuanced. Some hip throws, especially with the koshi guruma/head & arm grip are a bit more susceptible to the back take. However, the classic "hip toss" AKA Ogoshi, is very low risk that regard due to the arm being around the hip (underhook). Making it VERY suitable for self-defense (albeit with training). Single and doubles are definitely great and have an important place. No debate. But they aren't without risks as well in self-defense/MMA and often land you straight in someone's guard. The classic Ogoshi and many other classic throwing techniques are a type of instant guard pass. Upon landing, as in the video I showed, you are at the side of the body and past the legs. In any case, I appreciate your reply and perspective. Your point was short, easy to make, and seemed to be more fair then what I took from the comments made by Stephan. My two cents. Thanks for the exchange.
Thank you for the compliments :) To address your last points, yes hip-throws land you in a better position. They are high risk high reward.
However what i was trying to say is low risk "low" reward is generally better specifically for self defence, because the consequences are much more dire if you screw up AND because few people in the streets even *have* a guard so it is not really low reward as you would have no trouble passing. Basically you're risking more with a hip-throw without really gaining much in return. And that's assuming you need to engage their "guard", which you might not, by the way.
Finally, unlike mma fighters, untrained opponents are unlikely to sprawl on you.
And by the way i like hip-throws a lot more as a competitor, but still I wouldn't recommend them as the go to for self defence.
Fair enough but I think we have a different perspective. Most people don't have a guard...true enough. Most average Joe's with no training in a self-defense situation ALSO don't have the SLIGHTEST clue as to what a hip throw is, how to stop one (from a trained expert), and don't know how to "take the back" in order to take advantage of the perceived disadvantage of the hip throw. I think hip throws are LOWER percentage against trained fighters/grapplers who are aware of these skill sets. However, in a world where many fights end up in a upper body clinch after an initial tussle...in my view...a throw like Ogoshi (among others) are extremely practical in self-defense. Nonetheless, I respect your view and assume that our own experiences inform our opinions. Best to you.
Also, to be clear, I'm not making a case for better/worse. Rather, my point was simply to say that the video suggested ("I've never seen it") lack of effecteness of "hip tosses" and that I thought and think is unfair, inaccurate, and objectively false per the link I contributed as one easy example.
The sport jiu-jitsu it's very different of the vale tudo jiu-jitsu and that's all ... if you see the the old days of jiu-jitsu it has strikes , kicks and punches, headbutt and traumatic techniques and today nobody trains that any more. ..
Nobody knows how defend a punch or kick anymore ... it's all confortable doing ground grappling with out worries of being hit .... that's not good at all ...
Vale tudo fights had the best form of jiu-jitsu . Not this sport jiu-jitsu
i can tell you that much . ..
All then old vale tusk shit is instinct anyone who sees a Head but will use it fool or a kick after base to the guys face punching is a strike you ain’t kicking people in street fights I bet rolls and rickson never kicked people they clinched tripped or double single legged then down mounted punched in face then got a choke basic fighting Jiu Jitsu that knife defense shit is fake marketing man and of course they will defend their dad rickson is a ideal of mine and I’m Carlos side of it if you train Jiu Jitsu and someone is punching you you will know to clinch with under hooks you sure as hell don’t clinch with bear hug vale tuck was a sport btw they were in arenas street fight is outside no ref keep drinking the Hélio cult mindself
Go to a BJJ place and most of the time you are doing things that you would never do in an actual fight.
That said, every second spent in sports BJJ of course makes you better because you are getting fit and are practicing against a resisting opponent.
My daughter goes to a sports-oriented school. They don't talk about punching or how to deal with it at all. Many people pull guard instead of practicing takedown.
You might have to have her cross- train in boxing or something.
I agree.
And there is more to know that in sparring with friends you know they will never throw a punch at you random or do a body slam when you pull guard. And if all your skills dosent work just tap a little and restart.
On the famus street that everybody talks about there is adrenaline, random punches or kicks or even body slams.
In BJJ sparring i feel quite comfortable on my back but if it was a street fight i know i will have a bad time.
i know because i was at MMA training a few times and damn it's so easy to forget that the other can punch you in the face when i am looking for a leg or arm to get in the right position.
Oh Stephan... but my grandmaster sensei says our techniques are way to deadly and dangerous for sports! Thats why no one of us is allowed to compete or to do sparring in training, because we train to protect and not to damage! :-) My Sensei even once had a street fight against Rousimar Paul Harris, which he won easily because Paul Harris didn´t know how to protect against eye-jabs and wasn´t prepared to be slammed on his head (illegal techniques). Unfortunately Rousimar has taken some serious brain damage from this slam and isn´t able to recognize tap outs and has forgotten everything besides leglocks since this day :-(
highsoflyify , that's great.
Yeah, because self defense bjj has too many deadly and dangerous techniques for sports.... Do you consider punches deadly techniques? Oh my god...
How would someone who is just beginning BJJ supposed to know what is a good/bad jiu jitsu school?
PS agree with some of the self defence stand up that is being shown
YouShubes he said it in the video
Jean-Paul de la Fuente you may not know something is bad if you have no reference point as to things should be if that makes sense
My school does not teach take downs. Should I switch schools?
perhaps, or just take some judo classes on your spare time.
Awesome video Stephan. It still continues to baffle me how guys like Rickson/Kron and other famous Gracie practitioners talk down about the sport side of Jiu Jitsu, as if the top competitors in the street will pull reverse de la worm guard on you. To quote Kron, you're 'cheating' if you berimbolo someone in sport.
All respect to them for their accomplishments, I'm a "sport Jiu JItsu" guy, but dude if I'm in a self defense situation, I'm immediately double legging him and fighting tooth and nail for side or full mount. End of.
Jiu Jitsu will always constantly evolve. The classic gracie arguments of how newer techniques are not as effective, and the student retention rate is higher on the gracie program is baffling. You're misleading people and giving them a false sense of 'street ready' security. If you want to be effective at choking someone you NEED TO SPAR. The original techniques (RNC, Guillotine, Armbar) are still the highest percentage in ALL Jiu Jitsu. How do you get good at these? God damn you need to spar your ass off.
strokerman01 What 😂
As opposed to what? BJJ gracie combatives series blue belts(or beyond) entering the UFC/MMA? No way. Sport BJJ ends up being far superior due to the live rolling involved in training. The adjustments of distance management in guard or not being guard centric etc.. need to be learned, but they are fairly minor adjustments that trained sport practitioners tend to be very capable of. If they do not train these differences before an MMA bout, they may be in for a rude awakening.
One more important thing. It's not a style, it's about a human being. Super self-defense instructor might fall from the simple fight. As well as a top class athlete. On the other hand, some mediocre fighter can solve the problem quickly. Because of circumstances and willing to survive.
If a gym is reputable in the sport aspect and has lots of medals, trophies ect... there is a good chance it is also involved with the full contact side of it as well training mma and striking.
Pretty much all BJJ schools that emphasis self defense train their techniques against live resistance.
So is no gi better for self defense ? Gracie or 10th planet for someone who only cares about self defense ?
Will you please make a video explaining why the stand up Gracie self defense is bed addressing them individually?
The problem with Japanese/Traditional JJ, is that there's really no way to do sparing, with a lot of the techniques your being thought (like the wrist lock). At least without doing serious harm to your partner. Before I started JJJ, I trained Muay Thai/MMA. I really do miss the sparing and the effectiveness of the techniques under pressure is something I think a lot about. But its kinda like a chicken and egg problem, you cant both attempt to break the wrist of your sparring partners and be gentle with him. It's the reason these things got removed of BBJ.
Dude, you should make a video of knife defense techniques you like
Not sure your example of teaching defence only (i.e no sparring) vs sport bjj (with sparring) a good one it's obvious pressure testing required and both sides do that.
However I do agree with the questions that need asking, number one do you enjoy, do you like instructor etc
This time you are very wrong my friend.
College Wrestling and Wrestling JJ beats them all. I do and teach Gracie Self Defense at my DOJO. It is great, but we add some Folk, Freestyle and Greco to the mix.
This assumes that self defense jj schools only drill the self defense and not spar. There are schools that spar in self defense with gloves.
The standup defense stuff like hip tosses and disarming is bad though. There still are good standing defenses though.
BJJ's intro classes are all about stand up self defense. Curiosity: when a chinese kid is taken to live at a Shaolin monastery, he spends sometime in a "pre-monastery", where he learns some basics on self defense. Guess what they teach? Basic intro BJJ. Watch the Monique Elias (world champion BJJ from white to black belt) video on self defense.
No streetfighting does not need to follow the JJ strategy, more often then not its a bad idea to go to the ground, even if you manage to come on top, if there is a knife involved or more people you dont want to end up on the ground. As i see it you need to be able to handle striking in more ways then to shoot or take clinch, you need to be able to strike your self, and you need to have skill in distance appriciation, timing and angulation in a stand up battle, same as you need on the ground in you are a JJ fighter.
IF you just are a JJ player then i agree you must more or less do the Gracia in action way of fighting, ruch in for a simple clinch takedown and on top try to submit. Problem is if you dont strike on top and looking for a sub, its not the most effektive idea. Strike comes forst and sub second. If you go for a sub it should probably be a choke, and choke the person unconsious because not everyone knows about a tap out and even if they did you cant trust they accept the defeat and stop fighting.
If you train BJJ without ground and pound you will probably be somewhat chocked in a furious streetfight, same as most of them have been in MMA. I love Jiu Jitsu and train in every day, but i love striking / fighting everywhere as much. Train as you need to Fight, Fight as you have Trained.
Please tell me what is the bjj all mma fighters do the sport or self defense version
Bad reputations means bad fighting . Ronda used hip toss.
I rarely make comments but Ill make the exception here. You are totally wrong. There is a huge difference and Jujutsu is not [Ground Ground Ground]. You fight like you train- train for sport and you will fight like sport. Newaza or Ground techniques are a portion of jujutsu. I think sport trainers have a vested interest in making the comment that sport is self defense and it is not- not at all. Boxing is not self defense either. Boxing uses gloves and punching to the head. In self defense that strategy is utter stupidity. You are so way off here. MMA is not self defense and training against pressure does not mean self defense. People have the right to think what they want and I do not really care at all however, if you are going to be an ambassador for the art, then you have the responsibility of backing up your claims with real evidence and to speak with integrity. You all can listen if you want to this garbage, but it will be your safety on the line. not his.
do you think a good sports jiujitsu guy wont be able to defend themselves in a streetfight??
Nobody cares what I think and more likely than not, nobody cares what you think either. That question should be answered by the person asking it. For example, I could tell you all about driving but if you never have experienced driving....no matter what I say or how I explain it....you are not going to know until you drive yourself.
You make some valid points, but i disagree with the Boxing comment. I've seen numerous real fights in pubs, clubs, on the streets, etc., where good boxers have knocked guys out with a single punch i.e. hooks, upper cut, overhand or a quick combination e.g. jab followed by cross and a hook. I train in boxing, in conjunction with other systems. The only way you could possibly injure yourself, is if you hit something accidentally i.e. miss the target and hit a wall full-force, etc.. Even then, the potential damage can be minimised with the proper training. Part of my training in developing punching power, is to punch walls with no wrapping/gloves i.e bare hands, so eventually you condition your knuckles and wrists to the force. I'm not recommending that you do this initially, but you can build it up with conditioning i.e. start with bags full of sand, then progress to smooth stones/rocks, to iron ball bearings, etc.. (e.g. iron palm/iron fist training). Yes, there's a possibility of developing osteoarthritis in the hands long term, but i regularly use 'dit da jow' after training as a preventative. I've never had a problem with my hands, after almost 30 years of conditioning. You can then test your strike force in traditional Japanese Karate 'Tameshiwari' and try to apply this in your full-contact sparring. Of course palm heel strikes, hammer fists, knees, kicks, elbows, etc. all can be used as alternatives in self defence, if you don't fancy this kind of 'old school' training, but all strikes should really be conditioned like this IMHO. (A heavy kick / punch bag, speed ball, etc. are all recommended extra pieces of equipment to strengthen wrists, hands, increase speed, practise kicks/knees/elbows, etc.). The science underpinning this type of conditioning, is based on the German anatomist and surgeon, Julius Wolff's work i.e. Wolff's Law.
I did not say boxing doesn't work, I did not say jiujitsu doesn't work and I did not say anything about "styles". Sport is sport and self defense is self defense. One is not the other. One may help prepare in certain ways for the other but nonetheless- they are inverse of each other. I am sure that if you practice boxing for defense it will work...Just like I am sure that if you practice jiujitsu for defense, it will work. Rear naked chokes, for example, in the state that I reside, are considered lethal force, and must be justified or the user will go to jail. What I am getting at is that- self defense has many faces including the legal definition. Sport is cool...but it is not self defense - no matter what the style. Ultimately, to me, any style void of tactical, reactionary, and psychological principles rounded off with an effective strategy is useless for realistic defense and the reverse is also true to me...Thanks for your comment though- your not wrong and I just think we both agree that getting past semantics can be a daunting task.
Thanks for your comment. I agree with the majority of what you say. It was just your previous comment, that i disagreed with i.e. 'Boxing is not self defense either. Boxing uses gloves and punching to the head. In self defense that strategy is utter stupidity'.
Boxing also has body shots (floating ribs/kidney/liver/heart), groin punches, throat punches, etc., especially in self defence. It's more than just head shots, as i'm sure you can now appreciate. Boxing also includes 'dirty boxing' i.e. Panantukan, so it's a misconception to think of it in a purely sport context. It can be effective in self defence applications, just as many other arts can be, if they are trained realistically. All martial arts have strengths/weaknesses. It's just a question of being objective and using what works for you under duress. Any comprehensive martial art, has an offensive and defensive capability i.e. stand-up strikes, stand-up grappling, groundwork grappling and weapons. There aren't many single systems that offer those requirements, so hence the reason why people cross train, to address those contingencies IMHO.
You make some excellent points, I agree with everything you said here, but I also think that jiujitsu and all sports relating to mma lack the fear associated with a real life situation. It's something that people tend to gloss over, but when you're actually afraid for your safety, Im not sure a lot of the techniques are useful. Not because they don't work, but because if you're panicked and scared you may not use all the tools at your disposal. Is there a way of replicating that fear? Because when I roll, I could be rolling with a guy twice my size, and I wouldnt feel scared because I know we're not trying to hurt each other. I may even tap him out, but in a real fight this guy would crush me. How do you stay calm when you're in a terrifying situation, is it possible to train for that?
This is where competition comes in. Sure its not the same as life on the line , but sign up to open weight and look across the mat at some beast wanting to rip your arm off. It will go some way to help perform under pressure.
SUPER great analogies. Oss.. -Soul Horse
Sports BJJ guys have never been punched in the head
Durker that’s s problem tbh when it comes to the streets
Self Defense BJJ guys have never been punched in the head either.
lol Yes. Self defense bjj guys have not either. Take some boxing,thaiboxing,mma to get accustomed to that really quick.
I'm going to get into trouble for saying this, but I see some similarities with Karate (my foundation). Karate is karate, it's self-defense, it's full contact, it's that tappy-tappy shit, and it's kata. You need to know it all and it's all karate. BJJ is the same, sport or self-defense or whatever, it's all good. Just go out and learn it all at your own pace. I do bjj as well.
I really want to compete in tournaments but I am worried about self defense I don't know what to do I really need bjj in my life health wise
I hate comments in a year late on a video and I can't resist I'm no expert in bjj but you need to train worn once or twice a month on the self defense aspect especially when you have to worry about somebody throwing punches when you're in somebody's guard just my opinion but the Father the modern-day to jitsu you get hit once as a black belt you're a purple belt you get hit another time now your a white belt it went something like that that's my problem with Brazilian jiu-jitsu gyms they never have people throw punches at you on the ground once you get hit get her twice if you don't get knocked out you're no longer looking for a submission you're trying to survive so I think that should be worked on. When you're rolling every class MMA proves my point
I do not agree. There’s a reason why sport players have to completely change the Jiu Jitsu they train when they transition to MMA.
IMHO the only differences are:
1) For self-defence you want at least *some* takedown ability and punch defence; and
2) Some classic BJJ moves of the Gracie era that may have been superseded in competitive BJJ will still work well against some drunk untrained idiot and may be easier to execute.
Well said man!
Self defense is not willingly taking someone to the ground.
So this is unrelated to this present video but an issue I had recently. I have been rolling with someone recently who only ever seems to just lay on top of me and prevent me from moving (For reference they're about 250lbs I weigh about 150lbs). When/if they get me on my back (in guard) I tend to end up stuck. All they do is lay flat and put all their weight down to try and pin me in place. Would appreciate a little help with this, I'm not getting submitted by him but being stuck has proven very frustrating.
I disagree with you. In all self defense academies you are also going go learn sport bjj techniques like spider guard, de la riva etc. There is no bjj academy that only teaches self defense techniques. You cannnot become a black belt (hell not even a purple belt) by just learning self-defense techniques. Also they have sparring in all bjj self-defesne academies. They don't let their students roll for the firts few months, but eventually you have to start rolling if you want to progress. So in SD academy you are going to learn both sides of bjj, but in sport bjj academy you are only going to learn one. You also said that SD guys say that their is a big difference between sport and SD bjj and that it is overexaggerated. Well we see bjj world champions fail in mma all the time because they only train sport bjj. People that train self-defense/mma bjj like Brian Ortega, Demian Maia, Garry Tonon, Fabricio Werdum always do much better, because they have been training how to defend aginst strikes since day one. People like Firas Zahabi and Demian Maia say that there is a difference between sport bjj and SD. Why would one of the best bjj mma guys and legendary coach lie to us about it? If anything the sport bjj guys lie to us when they are telling their students that sport bjj is all you need in a fight.
Thank you for this honest commentary. Wholeheartedly agree.
What if you practice BJJ and judo? 🤷🏻♂️ you won’t be the best in either one (probably). But you will be more well rounded. Not saying everyone should or that it’s the end game answer. Just an idea. 1 of the many ways to skin the chicken.
Wow, you think the Gracies only teach out of date techniques for takedowns? In their combatives program they teach the leg hook takedown, double leg takedown, and others. Little surprised that you said that. You mention "good bjj beats bad bjj" true but sport bjj moves shouldn't be trained for those who are more into a self defense style.
I'm actually surprised at how many young people in their 20s (only or mostly) do "self defense". I have observed this when I visited different "self defense" schools.I can understand older people who have never trained before starting out with self defense, but surprisingly, I have noticed a lot of young people doing it too. My question is, is self defense and belt testing something that is more prevalent with the Helio side versus the Carlos side? I have also noticed that when I talk to some people (though not everyone) who mostly do self defense, they come off somewhat critical and maybe even slightly insulting toward "competition" JJ schools, but you don't hear people from "competition" schools openly criticize "self defense" schools nearly as much. (To me, that's a red flag) I think ALL JJ is important and should not be separated. Keep an open mind.BTW, I totally agree with you Stephen.
Single leg double leg and clinch trips I agree with the fighting aspects throws and hip tosses I don’t think will work Helios self defense techs with knifes will get ya hurt clinch takedown mount punch and sub that’s the best and roots of the fighting Jiu Jitsu he flag holder he’s right that stand up Hélio self defense secrets of Jiu Jitsu I love Hélio and rickson influences my life but the preach that but it’s not usable in fighting and rickson himself just brought down and choked never hip toss to armbar that was the way they tried to sell it to people Carlson Gracie lineage all the way
Yeah well that was 100% accurate in every aspect.
I agree with u in almost everything u said ( gracies just try to take our money with their 36 tecniques and then giving away fake blue belts) .But man, I m sure a judo guy can throw someone with an o goshi and then juji gatame and choke him out in a street fight or mma ( just exactly as ronda did it in the begining of her carreer)
I’m gonna go a stage further by asserting that the differences are a fictional product of any linage exclaiming to directly derive from Helio Gracie’s sons. In my opinion it’s purely a way for the Gracie’s themselves and those who gain legitimacy from them to keep influence in something with has grown beyond their control.
Gracies defended bjj for self defense since the beginning. They have always considered that learning to defend punches and survive on your feet is critical for a bjj practitioner because they consider bjj creates FIGHTERS that one day may have to use their art to defend themselves. And so, they have been teaching this things all the time. And of course they have been selling it, as it's been the case with everyone else in the business. They want to keep BJJ as complete and useful for real life as possible, in a world where sports bjj is taking over real quick and making people think as you do.
If you call that "keep influence in something with has grown beyond their control" whatever, but don't be so blind to think defending punches from the guard is nothing like "fictional". And if you think you don't need nobody to teach you how to do it because it seems so simple, then you've been lost since the beginning.
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When a boxer thinks he can, for example, defend takedowns just with his boxing, he is wrong. And thinking you can handle a striking situation with sports bjj without any kind of special training is wrong too. It may work, as it may work for a boxer to just uppercut you any time you shoot for a takedown. But it's not something you should rely on for defending yourself. Peace.
gogo!
What kind of stand up BJJ game would you recommend?
Mohseen Lala I’m not even 1/20 as experienced as Stephen Kesting, but in my experience wrestling is a great art to cover stand up grappling. BJJ has very little stand up
Wrestling is totally the art of clinch fighting and takedowns and does takedowns better than jiujitsu by far. All the good takedown artists in MMA have a wrestling background. Jiujitsu just teaches you how to do takedowns when you have the risk of being choked, so it’s necessary if you want to learn takedowns for self defense, but wrestling will enhance the takedowns
If you are concerned with striking I would just switch to MMA and you can learn to get better at jiujitsu while you get wrestling and striking in.
Stephan Kesting once said most vital standing technique for self defense is Blast Double Leg Takedown and Double Underhook Clinch. Oh wait, isn't that from Gracie Combatives?
anonymous one he said that a lot of what they practice doesn’t work. Also if you think a double leg and double underhook clinch are uniquely Gracie you’re severely wrong
There’s depictions of Greeks doing it in wrestling thousands of years before Maeda taught the Gracie’s judo and jujitsu
Stephan Kesting once did an interview about self defense and his answer to the question 'What's the most basic standing technique you would learn to prepare street fight?' was "Blast Double Leg and Double Underhook Clinch."
My point is Stephan is bashing Gracie Combatives while his own idea of Jiu Jitsu that can be use in street fight is very similar. This doesn't make any sense. I didn't say Gracie created Double Leg takedown or Double Underhook clinch controls. But that's what they got famous for during Vale Tu do days. And they still teach that as a way of self defense. Stephan himself would teach same thing if he made curriculum for self defense. Except he would not teach hip throw from Clinch. He would teach something like Knee tap or Kosoto Gari. But that's what Gracie teaches nowadays anyway. In Gracie Combatives they don't teach hip thorw anymore. They teach Outer reep takedown and knee tap in Clinch. Because Hip thorw is too hard too master and unrealistic in self defense.
I've been to Gracie Certified Training Center. They got 6~8 months of training basic technique and after that they do sparring like any other place. What's the point of bashing?
anonymous one it’s not bashing. He just said a lot of what they do doesn’t work. Have you seen their videos on knife defense and all that??? The only things they do which I think are worth a salt are their weapon retention series which made me even consider joining a Gracie training center. And I don’t even own a gun and I’m only 16.
Here’s a video of Relson with a hip toss variation, mount - ground and pound, then armbar to finish. ua-cam.com/video/6pBjwVBVLTg/v-deo.html
Best reality check ever.
Thank you Stephen.
🇨🇦 bjj icon...
Pressure and sparring are the requirements for a practical martial art but someone who advocates krav maga, of all things, talking about this stuff is kinda funny
Sport is definitely a self defense method.
Brian Barlow True, but it’s good to combine it with self defense
Not necessarily better than self defense bjj itself.
Mr Kesting, this time I disagree with you.
I practice Jiu Jitsu and self defense in the Royce Gracie Jiu Jitsu Network.
Let me tell you three things:
1)In a street fight, hip throws are very useful.
2) in self defense jiu jitsu we don't use X-Guard or De La Riva or any other fake guard, because they can get you killed if you use them in a real street fight.
3) in sport jiu jitsu they train for 10 minutes matches, in self defense jiu jitsu we train for matches with unlimited time.
In conclusion, self defense jiu jitsu and sport jiu jitsu are completely different. I respect you a lot, but this time you are wrong sir.
Have a good day.
Daniel Martinez
1. He said complex hip toss combos that end in armbar rarely ever work. Also FYI doubles and singles are still far better techniques than most throws. That’s why they are so much more popular in freestyle wrestling even though throws score a lot more points, because throws are a lot harder to do against an opponent that’s not mentally challenged.
2. He was saying that they understand how to train against resistance. He literally said that the guards aren’t combative at all. Regardless they understand how to transition between positions whereas a person with minimal time sparring wouldn’t know that. He was simply saying that some gyms have different advantages.
On the flip side he said that a good gym regardless of if it’s sport or self defense will teach with lots of pressure testing, and a bad gym will emphasize techniques that will rarely work.
3. Tf??? Self defense martial arts rarely do any cardio, sport martial arts do way more cardio and train far more competitively. They have the ability to fight for long periods waaaay better than anyone who doesn’t practice a sport martial art. Do you think jiujitsu guys are just totally lost after the first 10 minutes??? Do you think they’ll look on the streets for a ref to give them points???
Why is it that wrestling has 3 2 minutes periods which is HIGHLY unrealistic yet it’s one of the most dominate styles??? Because they teach techniques that work and they drill with having good cardio in mind. Wrestlers have crazyyyy cardio. So your point just makes no sense.
A sport includes training to have the best endurance you can possibly have. That’s not what self defense teaches you. If you want that you need a separate rate for an actual gym
Thank you for your comments. Ultimately BJJ is a martial art, not a martial science, and that means that definitive answers are much harder to find. That being said, I've used X Guard against UFC and Pride fighters in MMA sparring and found it very useful - really tough to punch down when you're that destabilised! Of course I didn't 'hang out' there indefinitely either - I went for the sweep to get to the top immediately.
you are very kind MR Kesting, but please remember that MMA is not the same thing as a street fight.
I am very honored for your reply.
Please keep up your good work, your videos are very good, I admit it, even if in this video you and are are in a disagreement.
Have a good evening.
yawn. "Technique Bla bla is only for sport, it doesn't work in MMA". Then someone proves it does, and you always invariably go to "but it doesn't work in the streets". Simply because it is a non-falsifiable statement, for the most part, since any trained grappler will probably never *need* to use the x-guard in a street fight when they can just double leg the guy. People in the streets are MUCH LESS trained than mma fighters.
I'm so tired of this rethoric that I almost want to fucking go out and start berimboloing people in the street, as white belt, just to prove the point. But I could use not getting assault charged.
if you do X-Guard on the streets you will get punched in the testicles, that is a fact.
So, I am sorry to bother you but MMA is not the same thing as street fight.
I spent over a year at a Gracie Academy doing their combatives program and I agree 100%. Only reason I stayed so long was because the instructor and the students were great and i had many friends there but in the end I knew it wasn't real and i was wasting my time.
Fact Check: Sport MMA vs Street Fighting vs Self Defense - ua-cam.com/video/8dC9fLblNQ4/v-deo.html
I have trained in both sport and street jiujitsu. Yet from experience, I believe stand up should be about headbutts, elbows, nut shots, and knee stomps. If it goes to the ground, we should sweep, we should bite, bash their skull into the pavement, and then continue to strike the nuts. Then we run. That's self defense. Jiujitsu is just to give us more options if we're in an inferior position. It doesn't make you superman. Stay humble people.
the things on the feet you talking about, are the same like spider guard for the ground game xD
and vs a knife youre fucked anyway, but more on the ground ^^
Yes sir you are telling the truth. Bjj self defense doesn't work because they do not use resistance they just do cooperative reflex drills. Just like JKD Concepts use High intensity cooperative dead pattern drills. Im sorry no disrespect but that stuff is trash. If you do not train with pressure then you might as well perfome kata.