Why Final Fantasy Can't be Turn-Based Anymore
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Square Enix's Mainline Final Fantasy games had been turn-based for the first 10 outings. Since the early 2000s things began to change Final Fantasy 15, and Final Fantasy 16 seem to be continuing this trend. Games such as Pokémon, Dragon Quest and Persons 5 seem to have struck the balance but in more photo realistic worlds, can that balance ever be found? With the combat designer behind Devil May Cry 5 and Dragons Dogma on the job parried with Yoshi-P of Final Fantasy 14, what could possibly go wrong?
#finalfantasyxvi #finalfantasy16 #jrpg #turnbased
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Since this video decided to take off recently, i need to note. I adore turn based combat. I love it in Final Fantasy and in many of the games i highlighted here. This video is meant to speak on why the Devs have not gone that direction in a very long time. If they ever want to try Turn based again ill be there day 1. But when you are telling a story this grand. in this visual fidelity. Action combat is better suited to flow from cutscene to gameplay. You really need to imagine the cutscene before the Eikon battles where massive set pieces are going on and Clive is being grabbed by Garuda, to then transition into stationary turn based combat? it defeats the entire vision and impact. It would not land and deflate the entire sequence. Again that's not to say it couldn't work in other games. Its not not meant for what FF currently is striving for. Lastly saying the Devs are doing it only because its popular is insane. give the people some credit for achieving their vision with a hellish Dev cycle this time. Its cool
What I don’t understand is, Square Enix did a few titles with classic turn based JRPG. Namely Octopath Traveller and Bravely Default, both which have/will have sequels. The fact both titles have its own sequel shows that turn based JRPG is still popular.
“Devs have not gone that direction in a very long time”. That’s just wrong. Even if you meant FF devs, SE managed to produce four titles with turn based combat recently.
That's just lazy,
That's bull crap from the devs. Dragon Quest XI and Persona 5 are traditional JRPGs and sold gangbusters. Yakuza 7 is a recent JRPG and it had realistic graphics as well. Modern Final Fantasy sucks because it's not really an action RPG like a Kingdom Hearts but not a traditional menu driven RPG. It's this awkward in between.
The algorithm gods have blessed you.
@@nimay13 and neither of your examples have the visual fidelity of 16.
In FF12 your characters only attack when their ATB is full, and it fills based on a Speed stat. It's also completely command based. It's not an action game, it's a hybrid system (like FF4-9).
I'm playing through 12 now, I love the battle system in 12, even when it released I thought it was a neat hybrid of straight action and the more traditional system used in used in early games. I wish they had stuck with it for 13 honesty
thats what I kept saying to people. FFXII is literally just ATB from FF4 to 9, the difference is you can move around while waiting for the pretty bars to fill up
@@ewoknips5154 actually I'm also playing final fantasy 12 currently
@@nekotorin Characters and enemies can also act all at once unlike FF 4 to 9. SO Id argue those were still turnbased, but FF 12 isnt. Idk how else you define turnbased
@@brandonevans4773 both FF4 to 9 and FFXII work on a queue system. You dont notice it but you dont really act all at once. The system process a move in order. Its even more noticable when casting magicks in XII. But go on.
Turn Based game Baldur's Gate 3 Sold 22+ million copies VS. Final Fantasy 16 4M
That’s because baldur’s gate is based in DND while final fantasy branched off of that
I just remembered that yakuza like a dragon is the only game that has photo realistic graphics with turn based combat but the protagonist having a dragon quest mindset and also Yakuza being known for its silly and wacky moments so it definitely does not break the immersion with its systems while it did say RGG is also planning to be turn based for the future which is one franchise to look at
i should of mentioned that. i completely forgot about that games tone
@@Repaduski We all forget sometimes haha.
@無名です I agree. it seems persona 6 will sell way bigger i think. Persona 5 layed some serious groundwork for more fans into the next entry
The most saddest Yakuza combat from the series, really enjoyed Zero later found out the latest one was a horrible turnbased mess. Instantly refunded.
@@ONEin1000xD wow
sorry you missed out on such a great game and story
Like a dragon was game of the year for that year atleast for me
I was pleasantly surprised with how they managed to do the combat in FF7 Remake
It’s weird because as turn based is being phased out, there’s a new problem with the power imbalance that summons bring. FF15’s solution (and FF7R) was to have some random trigger conditions
The fact that FF16 is making a story around how obscenely powerful they are is genius
Ff7 remakes combat was complete garbage. The entire game was a complete insult.
@@beerious8392 lol nah
@@beerious8392 chill bro
Ff7 remakes combat was complete perfection. The entire game was a complete success.
Anyone can troll. At least put some effort into your pitiful stupidity.
@@beerious8392 Agreed fuck that game
Lost Odyssey and Yakuza 7 are 2 good turn based rpgs with photo realistic graphics. I get your point and partly agree since turn based seems to get paired with animesque art styles but when turn based is done well I don't think it matters too much especially with the case of Yakuza 7. The graphics were photo realistic but the goofiness of the protagonist and some of the plot points maybe what help turn based work so well with that game. Lost Odyssey on the other hand is also photo realistic and is probably as serious as game stories go and still works really well but that could be because it came from Hironobu Sakaguchi. Let's see how Yakuza 8 turns out since the main titles are going turn based
Yakuza 7 (like a dragon) is another good example of a successful modern turn based game. It's the only turn based game in the yakuza series, yet it's their most successful entry yet, and it has a more modern, realistic art style. Of course it does this in jest of the turn based jrpg genre which is probably why it works so well.
Wait yakuza 7 was the most successful entry? That's crazy lol. Outside pokemon, I can't stand turn based combat.
Agreed. Personally Yakuza 7 is my favorite game of Yakuza franchise.
I hate turn based combat in that game.
It is important to keep things in perspective: Yakuza like a Dragon has sold more than 490,000 copies (as reported on October 2022). Dragon Quest XI has sold over 6.5 million copies.
Persona 5 has sold 8.3 million units globally but that is including the original version, the Royal version (3.3 million across all platforms), Persona 5 Strikers and P5: Dancing in Starlight.
For those series which until now they have a more niche franchise, that is huge and impressive numbers in comparisson. But for a more mainstream series like FF, which FF XV has sold 10 million despite all its problems and beign in way less platforms (like Nintendo Switch) not so much.
I am not saying that a turn-based FF game with a AAA budget could be done in the future, but now it may not be the right time.
Like a dragon series is a good game series but it's niche game not a AAA game that sells tens of millions of copies.
Graphics or art style isn't the reason for why Final Fantasy doesn't want to be turn based. The reason is trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator console audience, which influences both gameplay and graphics. Final Fantasy gets this special protective treatment because it's their most well known and marketable IP. Let's be real, a lot of players won't look at a title if it's turn based.
Console players are in no way responsible for the change in the FF genre, every single turn based FF has been on consoles and handhelds for decades.
Final fantasy has been trying to go more action based since FF4, its literally why the atb system was created and eventually evolved into this mixup we see in KH and FF7R
You know your precious FF 1-10? All consoles and handhelds first.
@@stevenviljoen160 Console gaming has become more mainstream since the FF 1-10 days...
Oh goodness.. you talk like tb combat in final fantasy has any depth and variety 🤦♂️ heres my advice: start playing more crpg, or heck... do pokemon pvp. You will understand how extremely basic the tb combat in final fantasy is
@@LordShrub so because a lot of people play consoles its consoles fault that FF games now aren't turn based? You know PC games are more mainstrean than ever too right? There are also many IP like Persona and Shin megami that are more popular and mainstream than ever and they are still turnb based and have always been despite being on consoles.
The FF series are bow more action based as that is what the creators want, its always been a goal for them hence why they implemented the atb system instead of turn based after 3 and with 10 as the exception.
@@stevenviljoen160 You don't really get what I'm saying. It's not the consoles fault, it is the fault of catering to the modern user base of consoles. JRPGs like Persona will never push the same numbers as an Assassin's Creed, a GTA or a God of War. There are players that are outside of your gaming bubble that only play those kind of games. Those players will look at your ATB and still say it's a boring turn-based game.
I think Final Fntasy X-2 found a perfect sweet spot of turn based and action. Since when you perform an action in FF X-2 at the end of your tune you end in a place where you attacked, providing that fluid element while keeping it looking like action
Yeah as much as I didnt like x-2, the combat was really done well
I feel like it's funny to think that a 3D rpg is unrealistic because the characters don't move in battle but then ignore that final Fantasy itself is unrealistic as it lives in a world of magic and mystery, especially considering FF10 was one of the best FF games they ever made and it was done with 3D characters while being unrealistic. The problem with old RPGs in the modern day is that you do not have a button to speed up the battling, you have random battles or if you don't have the speed, the leveling takes way too long (this could literally be solved by making the leveling process easy at the start and harder in the late instead of in some RPGs nowadays just making it ridiculously hard to level) It ruins the RPG experience. Thankfully a lot of old RPGs and even new ones now include a speed up button with their remakes (If it's too old to have it, you can also play on an emulator so you can have it sped up) to help you enjoy the experience more and not get blown out with the number of battles.
I grew up on turn based, I love it. What I hate is it seems all games are going action rpgs. A while lot of button mashing around. Don’t get me wrong I enjoy some games like that but turn based felt more strategic, time to plan out how to do fights and control what all characters in my party do.
Turn-based equals a card game.
yeah i miss that thats why i hope Dragon Quest stays Turn Based
I hate the idea that turn based = boring and action = interesting. It's a sentiment that really sums up the industry as style over substance. Something like FF16 is never going to have what makes games like DMC and Bayonetta special while lacking the nuance and depth of the older turn based titles. Action RPGs like the Tales Of games are completely awful imo, they have shit stories with button masher combat and zero depth. Good turn based games force you to think and experiment whereas good action games push your execution to the limit, but the latest Final Fantasy will be so watered down for the mainstream consumer that it will likely do neither lol. Seems there's a lot of people in the comment section who just hate turn based, or hate change, and are missing the forest for the trees.
@@asdfghjkl2261 i love lost odyssey Enchaned Arms Dragon Quest dont understand whyy graphic has to do with anything about Turn Based
I agree and while I enjoy many action based games, making mainline Final Fantasy games without the turn based combat is just wrong and immoral. There's no other way around it. They just need to stop doing that.
FF15 and FF7R both have some serious problems with their combat though. It honestly feels that the only party members that matter, especially later in the games, are the ones you control. The AI for the party members tends to do whatever the hell it wants, and not what makes sense. For example, in FF7R, Aerith is a ranged attacker, yet she is constantly getting as close as she can to the enemy and getting pummeled as a result. In both games, I eventually stopped caring enough about my party to try and heal them. If they died, they just stayed dead. It was actually easier that way, since I didn't have to break my attention on the enemy to try and help someone who was just gonna do the same stupid thing again. In Kingdom Hearts, going all the way back to the beginning, I didn't even notice if Donald or Goofy got knocked out, because it didn't feel like they contributed much. In the different Olympus cup matches, I couldn't feel a difference between fighting with a party or so. the time it took to complete them was only a few seconds faster with a party than without. Full action RPGs are fine in a lot of ways, but for a party based system, the AI needs to be smart enough not to get itself killed in the same stupid way over and over again.
It could be argued to just drop the party, yet from a storytelling aspect, that would make the game less engaging. After all, the story is what makes a RPG, in my humble opinion. A good story makes you care about the characters involved, including your party members. In the original FF7, would the permanent loss of a party member been as impactful if that character wasn't playable? No. It would have just been another dead NPC. The fact that one could control them and helped in fight after fight, helped build a relationship with the player. There was an investment there. Even the most charming NPCs getting killed in other games aren't nearly as impactful as losing a valued party member, because losing an NPC doesn't (usually) effect how the game plays in any meaningful way. In FF15, when the one party member gets blinded, I couldn't care less. I didn't even know the dude's name, because he made no impact to me. I had zero attachment to the party. They felt like they were just along for the ride. Even in Kingdom Hearts, it was all about what the MC of the game could do. Sora was infinitely more useful than Donald or Goofy, and when they weren't around, the games didn't really feel any different. Even the special party members like Auron or Hercules didn't feel that good because Sora could just do everything himself without their help.
If Final Fantasy continues it's trend of being an action game, they need to either emulate DMC and not have a party at all, or fix the AI so the party makes an impact.
That's, kinda the point? You need to control the character
@@ShowtimeLaw tell me how you can control Noctis and his crew all at once? Or Cloud and the gang? The moment you switch to another character, the one you were previously controlling starts acting stupid. That doesn't happen nearly as much in turn based games. Sometimes you get get a guest character you can't control, like Larsa from FF12, but you still have full control of your normal party. Makes it way easier to manage the occasion idiot AI.
The whole point of action combat is skill expression. If the AI party members are effective enough to murder things without you, it makes your personal impact less important, and thus, why not just have all AI characters?
@@mikeallan5105 I agree that action games are skill based. I'm just sick of melee characters running in circles instead of trying to be useful, or casters getting up close and personal where they get wacked into oblivion. We could remove them completely, like Dark Souls. Or just make them a bit more intelligent. Not necessarily badass, just smart enough to know their own roll and not be a total moron facing a wall and blocking. (Had that happen in FF7R. Cloud did it while I was controlling Aerith. It was really weird.) In a story driven game, it's hard to get invested in a character if they are constantly doing stupid stuff.
I'm not saying I want an easy mode or anything where the AI can decimate all the opponents. I just want them to not be Dumb and Dummer on the battlefield. They are supposed to be competent before they join the party right? So at least make them worth having around. Otherwise, get rid of them so we don't have to waste our time and resources healing the wizard that keeps trying to dry hump the behemoth.
@@paulhiggins6433 I mean I'm not sure how AI works, but I doubt you can just flip a switch and magically program them to not be dumb. Maybe they're technical limitations
Only 6.5 million copies for DQXI? That’s surprising considering how huge DQ is in Japan and how popular it’s become in the US
Shin Megami Tensei probably has the best turn based combat I've played in any game. It's so fun running through SMT III or IV. I'm still yet to play V, but I hear it gets even better.
Yup he never mentioned SMT 5. Combat carries that game and its turnbased. It would be way worse as an action title
Yeah man that press turn battle system is awesome.
I personally like trails combat system the most, haven't played smt yet, but I heard that the grinding is fraustrating
@@Azure9577 There is no grinding required if you don't run from battles. My personal philosophy is to fight every enemy in my way. By the time I get through the dungeon, I'm always at the perfect level for the boss to be challenging but fair.
Some people are just terrible and refuse to strategize, so they end up grinding until the boss is a push over. That is a sure way to make the game unnecessarily tedious.
@@backupschmliff1156 I do that too but in trails its easier because there are no random encounters in trails, enemies appear in the overworld and when touched, initiate battle
I heard that the random encounter rates are high af in the smt series and the first 2 persona games, I actually decided to play persona 2 innocent sin and I couldn't even walk 10 tiles ahead before a new battle came in
And then Baldurs Gate 3 was released and proved Yoshi.P wrong
Kinda why i'm crossing my fingers for BG3 to get GOTY, usually i don't care about such things, but a turn based CRPG winning GOTY could give the right message to the industry: don't chase that mass appeal/mass market, make good games and the people will come to you.
Fuck BG3, the only reason why it won game of the year is because they had good design, world building, and a solid story, turn based is a dated system, period.
@@khalil8043 so, you are saying the only reason they got every award under the sun is because it was a good game? o.O
@@Tinyflower1 no it wasn't, the turn based action bullshit ruined it
@@khalil8043ua-cam.com/video/W1eGrBdyO7g/v-deo.htmlsi=BsG97HVLdtxVxVu8🫵🏻🫵🏻🤣🤣
I'm still not hearing an actual reason why you can't have a photo realistic character controlled via menus.
It’s not that you can’t. Of course you can. It’s a matter of what you want the player to feel, they want the game to feel like a cinematic playable movie, turn based combat and goofy bobbing back and forth animations while you wait to attack competent negate that level of immersion of the target Demographic
@@Repaduski That should be easy enough to avoid if it really throws people off that much.
@@clintmatthews3500 how is it easy to avoid. there is always a waiting segment during turn based. There will always be static moments
@@Repaduski You don't have to have the "bobbing animations." Just have the action pause until you decide what happens next. Movies can be paused. Does that break immersion? It feels like this whole idea of Yoshi-P's is a solution to something that was never a problem and now people are performing mental gymnastics to justify his decision.
I get it if people prefer Final Fantasy become an action game series where they can flex their thumb muscles instead of their strategery muscles, but let's not pretend turn based is somehow no longer a viable method of gameplay if your graphics happen to be nice. There's no real correlation between those things.
@@clintmatthews3500 There absolutely is. the Correlation is budget and a fraction of fans who would actually want that. 16 would sell weak if it was turn based. Im not even against it at all. Im just saying that if that game was only turn based. it would not make a lot of money compared to whats been spent
"Cant"? Pokemon is the most famous video game ever to exist and it's a turn based rpg. FF isnt turn based anymore because after 9 none of the people who actually made the final fantasy series we actually work at square anymore. These days square is just doing what they think is popular and not what made them popular. It has absolutely nothing to do with realism or graphics. Theres no reason you couldn't hav a photo realistic game that is turn based. These people are ignorantly ashamed of making a video game. It's okay if your video game looks like a videogame
I love the new style- meshing in turn-based with live real time action. However, I have to admit sometimes I just want some good 'ol turn-based game. So glad I found Persona 5 Royal a couple years ago. That game shot up my all-time list real fast.
How about Chrono Trigger?
@@Loner098 A classic, and still even to today one of my favorites. I really wish they would do a full remake, but at the same time I'm scared it's going to be ruined.
@@TyTimeIsAwesome I guess masterpieces should just be left as is. While Chrono Trigger is still excellent, I believe that my personal favorite turn-based RPG was Bug Fables: The Everlasting Sapling. It's a 2019 Paper Mario-inspired indie game with a premise of insects as specific characters. The game does a great job with its own characters and turn-based combat system similar to the classic Paper Mario. I think the one reason I would pick it more over Chrono Trigger is because it has difficulty settings (by typing in certain words or phrases into your save file before naming it) and being able to refight bosses for replayability.
@@Loner098 I'm always torn about remakes. Honestly, FF7 is probably my #1 RPG game just due to nostalgia alone, and even I have ot say it's remake so far has been....mediocre at best. I know a lot of people will disagree, but that's just me. I've replayed the original at least 5 times. The remake I finished, tried a 2nd run on super difficulty and was instantly bored not 2 hours in.
I haven't heard of Bug Fables or even played Paper Mario, but if you rank it that high maybe I'll have to take a look!
@@TyTimeIsAwesome Well, Metacritic did give it an average score of 85%, so it's not gonna be like 95% like Chrono Trigger.
Yes. Because swinging a sword as big as you are 10x a second is super realistic.
Final FANTASY
@@avendurree and part of a fantasy is that it could be real
It’s about internal cohesion and consistency no one here is arguing it should adhere to the restrictions of reality. If I’m seeing cloud or any other protagonist pulling sick combos off in the cutscenes and the gameplay slows down to a crawl right after it’s completely disconnected from itself and breaks the pacing and not to mention inconsistent with your character abilities
@@thesaltmerchant4564 what makes you think they cant do "sick combos" in turned based combat? There is more to TB combat than standing in a line from 30 years ago, lmfao. If you like the DMC button mashing, good for you, but dont try to limit other gameplay with your bias.
@@cedj4504 comboing in turnbased combat is a joke compared to the insane mechanical skill that real action games like DMC require. Trust me, there is no comparison.
While I agree with everything said in this video as a gamer with a disability, I am afraid I am going to run out of new games that I am able to play. Turn based RPGs don't rely on quick responses just good decision-making skills while you need to be able to figure out and execute the fights in action combat games in order to enjoy the realism of the realms you are exploring. I know that I am in a minority but as someone who has been gaming for 30 years I hope that the technology of the modern day does not impair my ability to continue the hobby I so thoroughly enjoy.
I love FFX. I'm able to control every member's move and strategize a lot during bosses fights. That's why I prefer games like DDXII e Octopath Traveler and Persona 5. But I played FFXV and it was really fun.
Too bad. That turn based system was the best thing about Final Fantasy. I bought FF13 yesterday and I can't stand it. The Ai players do their own thing, while all i have to do is spam attacks with my single, usable character in those battles. There is no strategy involved. The tank automatically does tank things, the healer keeps everybody alive, I win with minimal effort on my part. It's like I'm only there to watch the cutscenes that I hate.
It boggles my mind they havent tried a mainline FF game with FF X-2's combat. Just modernize the animations and give it AAA production.
There's no major strategy in the early parts of FF13, (most of the story really) but once you take on stuff away from the story mindlessly spamming attack won't be enough anymore...Time to start timing shifts, heals,buffs and shifting mid attack animation
What’s the game that’s featured at 2:46?
Triangle Strategy on Nintendo Switch
As other commenters mentioned with the Yakuza: Like a Dragon game, in addition to art style, tone is the other major mediating factor/element in how turn-based combat in modern games can be implemented.
It will be interesting to see if technology will eventually progress to where turn-based combat can seamlessly switch between combat and non-combat without any obvious loading into/out of the gameplay.
Yeah i feel like someone is going to have to come along do something new. the issue is that in order for it to happen. a AAA studio is going to have to take a massive risk. and idk whos willing to do that. will likely only be out of japan
There's the upcoming Sea of Stars, which looks like it's gonna have a pretty smooth combat transition
@@Repaduski So we should just accept that Final Fantasy should just be renamed Final Kingdom hearts may cry? because that's what it is.
We've always been able to do that since the PS2, it has always been limited by the core game design making it possible, you need large enough area to make it possible, and most JRPGs are a series of hallways starting from the PS2 onward, necessitating the use of field transitions. Like a Dragon, Tales series, the newest Legend of Heroes game (Kuro no Kiseki) all do this.
@@Repaduski Its not a massive risk. FF X showed that even amongst games like Halo and God of War, there was a large market for Turnbased games. I mean Pokemon has sole more than practically any other franchise out there. The way you could train Summons in FF X was very similar. There is no evidence a AAA Final Fantasy turnbased game would not sell. They still have the highest selling numbers in the franchise.
:reads headline:
People these days still like chess and Final Fantasy Tactics, so I presume "FF can't be turn-based anymore" is a stupid mindset.
And their reasoning always fails too.
No logical reason, only "it was used as a technical limitation bro", "it doesn't sell well"
The way to do turn based is to make it super cinematic, have custom animations for each hero against each enemy, a damage animation, a last hit animation, a critical hit animation, and a missed attack animation.. Two or three variations for each would be fine with each party member, low damage animation, medium damage, high damage. All easily achievable, but you'd have to really double down on the cinematic aspect of it to make it immersive and cool, i'm a genius though obviously so it is what it is my final fantasy game would be the ultimate gaming experience lmfao (kidding)
The cinematic aspect is what VII-IX did extremely well, and I'd say the XIII trilogy also attempted an evolution of that (XII was the absolute opposite of 'cinematic'). I honestly don't see why we can't have another more advanced modern interpretation of the ATB system work - the key is making it a visual spectacle and keeping it lively (alongside a lot of strategic options and ideas that explore risk and reward of decisions not being possible in a continuum)
Plus victory poses
Nah
I can't say I entirely agree... While I understand where Yoshi-P is coming from, the old turn based strategy games, ff 7, 8, 9, even 10, the sequences were cinematic, limit breaks, spells. Imagine what they could have been combined with today's graphics, how much more grandeur they would be. I don't think it would be problematic at all in my eyes.
People saying turn based is dead and old fans need to adapt to action LOL guess who's gonna win GOTY? A turn based game BG3, 16 got snubbed 🤣
I don't think I can be immersed in an action game where I mow down enemies left and right with so many particle effects and flashy attacks its not that realistic so I don't see how realism has to do with anything
I wont like this comment makes zero sense. Its not about what happens. Its texture quality. missed the point a bit
angry boomer misses his outdated combat is pretty much what he's saying
I’m thinking the same thing lmao that DMC style combat is not realistic at all!
DMC, swinging a huge weapon 50x a second is not even remotely realistic. I wish Square would just admit that they think the newer generations like flashy, scripted, button mashers and stop BSing everyone. You could easily continue the advancement of turn based like they did with ff12. Showing 30 year old games with units lined up as "turned based" is disingenuous at best.
If FF games returned to turn based combat then I would be way more likely to try them out.
I feel like CBU-III had to ask themselves a question: do you build around a system, or do you tell the best possible story you can and build whatever system best fits that story?
If this is the direction they feel will give the player their best experience playing THIS title, then I'm glad they had the balls to make this move.
In Yoshi and Soken we trust
You build around the system.
People just need to be honest and admit that they didn't want a final fantasy game, but a DMC game with top end production values (this sort of territory has been getting strip mined by hack n slashes for years and adding the veneer of an FF experience on top of that just feels cheap). Character design has taken a serious nosedive lately as well. I couldn't pick the boy band from FFXV out of a crowd and now Clive blows in feeling reminiscent of Dante. It just gives me the impression that Square has given up on some level.
Agreed FF 16 is a game I wanted to see. Just not as a mainline FF title. FF series loss its identity as soon as it became too experimental. FF series got popular because of its unique take on Turnbased style gameplay mixed in with AAA production values. SE never made good Action games. Its not their strength.
Final fantasy xii didn't feature "full action combat"
The fuck are you smoking?
it was live. relax
@@Repaduski no, it was turn based like the other ones
You could simply move around, but the actions were always tied to the ATB🤷
@@marcomilan3738atb doesn’t indicate turn based, that’s super debated all the time, matter of thought process, but whatever you say
I was totally blown away by ff16s last trailer, I put my faith into yoshi p for 16.
Love it
I hope we finally get a real good finally fantasy… so they can stop remaking 7.
Combat looks like trash though. Flashy button mashing combat.
@JRLM the hell wrong with ff7 remake?
The more I watch FF 16 sneak peak tho, the more I get disappointed. Combat seems too flashy with no substance to it just for the heck of it. Effects is kinda muddled and weak. Fire on cut scenes and (I mean we are gonna be seing a lot of fire) yet the effect is lacking. (Not illuminating spaces and stuff. No intensity or whatsoever.
baldurs gate 3 is turn based.
Yea, a lot of "Old School" Final Fantasy fans (like me) do not like this real time Dark Souls BS, and we no longer have any interest in Final Fantasy as a result. I know Square doesn't care about whether or not I like the direction of Final Fantasy and neither do any of the "New Fans" so, enjoy, I guess I'll move on and play something else as will many long time FF fans.
There is plenty turn based out there, I also like turnbased games. I wouldn’t care if they made a turnbased FF game. This video was more about why form their perspective you won’t see that happen again. I don’t blame them
@@Repaduski No there isnt. Not like the FF series. Comments like this make me believe you dont understand why people like FInal Fantasy games.
That's the thing, i live dark souls and also love old school turn based final fantasies. The current version of their combat system which isn't fully action but also isn't turn based is what kills their combat system for me.
I think making the claim that Turn Based combat isn't immersive is a terrible take. In fact, I'd argue that when done correctly it's more immersive than any action combat system I've played so far. That's not to say that I'm not excited about FFXVI, it's just that in every action combat game I've played the game has never given me any reason to ever not play the protagonist when it's possible to play them. Whether I'm playing a Tales series, or Star Ocean, or a newer Final Fantasy game, there is 0 reason to spend time with another team member during combat. This is very different than in a turn based game where controlling your entire party of playable characters is central to the experience.
When I first played FFXV I played the entire game without ever controlling any one other than Noctis. When the final moments of the game take place the game forces you to control each team member once (to perform a single cinematic ability) and it was jarring because the tutorial text was popping up in the middle of a boss fight. Like... I've been playing this game the entire time with just Noctis and now that I'm in the final 15 minutes of the game you want me to learn how to play with these other guys? It's unnecessary and the game never gave me any tactical reason to ever control them... no action combat RPG game ever does.
The combat i miss the most on final fantasy is XII's combat i really enjoyed it and it didnt seem slow, I really want square to bring it back
Yes, really loved this combat system so much! It's my favourite ff combat system, also the gambit aspect was amazing. Been looking for games with a combat style like ffxii's but haven't found similar ones yet...
I like how you can farm and grind just by walking and characters attack by themselves with the gambit system.
Xenoblade
@@visual-insanity xenoblade
If you want more of that, play FFXIV. The cooldown on that game often feels like I’m playing FFXII, and since there’s a job system… it’s perfect.
I really love the middle ground they took with FFVIIR personally. Would love to see them expand upon that in the mainline titles in the future
I dont know if that can be expanded on tbh... it feels like the best version of that system without it being a straight up hack n slash...
Hopefully we get more games with that system.
@@dreamer6737 this. this might be a far-fetched analogy, but it’s the same dream i had about applying hq graphics to megaman, until it finally came true with megaman 11. in the same manner, use the FF VIIR battle timing system on a new FF world/lore/storyline with totally different battle mechanics (of course, not gonna be materia, or junction, or on/off abilities, or predetermined order, or gambit, or paradigm stances), just the screen going slow as you make decisions to replace ATBs
@Adonis Creed that could remove the feature where you can pull of combos by holding down the attack button.
@@adoniscreed4031 It can always be expanded on.
"our game will be realistic so it cant be turn based"
combat in the background is a guy doing flips and shit
makes sense /s
Yakuza: Like A Dragon was a great game. It was 100% turn based. Your video is your opinion. Nothing wrong with a turn based rpg if done right. Plus games with ATB are great. Better then pure button mash. I prefer somewhere in the middle.
yeah i seriously hate where rpgs have ended up. ff7 remake was garbage , if i wanted to watch a movie id pop in a blu ray, not a game. and mindless hack and slash is wayyy less engaging than strategy turn based. the newer generation of gamers are cry babies who have been vocal and ruined the genre for most of us
@@dukenukem7043 Wasn't the original FF7 really pushing for a cinematic experience?
@@randomduck8679 there was no grinding or tradiontal jrpg mechanics. the game forced me to play on rails
how is the middle possible?
@@jmgonzales7701 original FF7, heavily lean on turn based but not quite. If you stay still and do nothing enemies will attack you. In FF12 they make this faster, you still choose actions using menu and limited by ATB. Although this time, enemies attack you at much faster rate, so you you have to think fast. FF7 Remake takes this even further. Now you also control movement, dodge, blocking, and basic attack. Magic and item usage on the other hand, are still limited by ATB.
I'm glad the Baldur's Gate 3 dev team stuck with the turn-based combat system. Brought in a lot of newcomers to the franchise and to the CRPG genre. Would've been cool to see a modern FF game do the same
We’re playing video games. No matter how hyper realistic a video game is it will always be video game, a fantasy not reality. Its just designer choice. When I was playing FFVII I didn’t even know what turn based was or that it was an RPG. They could do it, they just don’t want to. I just wish they would stop calling it Final Fantasy.
That's my only beef with this stuff they wanna make a completely different game yet abuse the familiarity of a well known franchise.
I loved the stratetic element turn based combats brought to the table. Ff7R did a good job to blend action and turn based but there were so many trash mobs which could be slain without consuming an atb bar. I dont care if it is action based or turn based as long as strategy is there.
these comments always make me giggle because in turn based games, the de facto best strategy is to just spam your basic attacks and heal when not full hp. FF10 has some great debuffs like power break or blindstrike, but everything is immune to them, so you dont use them. you just summon bahamut and oneshot the thing. real big brain strategy right there. you could try to silence seymour since he only casts magic, but hes immune to it so you have to just hit him with basic attacks til he dies. you could poison yunalesca because she has a lot of hp but shes immune to it, so you have to hit her til she dies.
people will parrot this "turn based is strategy" mindset a million times, but they never stop to think about what strategy is or what they even do in the games they claim they played. theres no thoughts behind "turn based is strategy" mindset, because nobody can actually explain what strategy they used. they didnt have one. it was summon bahamut and hope he can win. if he cant, go back and level up to try again.
@@steveh1474 Its the same argument for action games. Most action rpgs you hack and slash and throw a healing potion. Also most action games you have AI controlled party members. Controlling all the party members in turnbased style games was a big allure of them. You felt more connected to each character.
I think Yunalesca was a great example of a boss that could be defeated with skill. If you know how Zombie works(which the game trains you through combat up to that point). I can tell you didnt because you relied on summons to beat her and hope for the best. You do not have to grind to beat Yunalesca at all. The fun part of that match is deciding when to keep Zombie on to avoid Mega death. (You cant get put to death if you are already dead)
@@brandonevans4773 I will admit I cheesed the ever living fuck out of Yunalesca. Yojimbo can ruin her day.
@@brandonevans4773 yea you're most likely to require a different strategy for battles in turn based than action. Like shin megami tensei you can't use the same skill everytime for your demons otherwise it'll be used against you giving the enemy extra turns.
Lost odyssey had a realistic art style and was turn base as well as created by the creator of final fantasy himself the game was a true final fantasy game without the final fantasy name
Still waiting Lost Odyssey PC release...
@@Winland88 shit still waiting for a modern release period.
Sure they can, and it would still sell well.
Its sold better is the funny thing
ok, fine. make it a JARPG, but where are my other playable characters?! why is that being abandoned?!
7 remake has that covered for 3 games in a row. I’m fine with having 16 be a contrast to that
Not everyone can be an action smashy player, not everyone has the dexterity and reflexes to play action games. Some people will always appreciate being able to think and strategize through these critical gameplay elements. So there will always be turn based games that challenge you and invite you to tinker with the games systems
I don't even think it's that because I am really good with FPS games like APEX .. but, I prefer my RPGs to be turn based. Something about action RPGs bore me.
@@johnnopeyy4129 They’re usually not done well. I think RPGs should stick to RPGs and action games should be action games. There is no RPG that has the amazing DMCV combat for some reason so if I’m playing an RPG why would I want it to focus on an objectively worse combat system. The souls games come close but the only “RPG” elements they have is weapon/armor/build customization. Some RPGs can circumvent this issue however by being shooters which offers both great combat and actual RPG elements like Fallout 4 or New Worlds. If they took Sekiro combat and made it into a real RPG it would be the best combat an RPG has ever seen in my opinion
@@thrillainthemanilla1409 monster hunter is another good example of one.
You do know strategy can exist in action games too?
@@kei7540 sure. Doesn't change the fact that open world action game or call of duty is everyone's cup of tea
No one never brings up The bouncer! That game came before kingdom hearts and no one never seems to realize how amazing the battle system was.
Final Fantasy died when it stopped being turn based. Which coincided with Sakaguchi's departure.
it won't die... not unless they screw up as bad as Forspoken
Thumbs up if you wish FF was turn based still.
Realism can be turn-based combat.
Repeatedly slashing, dodging and jumping around like a superhuman isn't realistic either. Some good games that combine "realism" and turn-based combat system are Final Fantasy 12 and Yakuza Like A Dragon.
The reason why we don't see many games like that anymore is because of the mainstream AAA titles that began moving away from "slow" to much faster combat systems. This gamer generation is becoming more and more fixated with fast-paced and "realistic" games. Which is a huge issue because all games look alike nowadays thanks to this being the new standard.
Turn based was once a creation of limited technology. Its not that its bad but has bevome niche. As action games let people be unique with there playstyle for instance all dmc community have unique combos. Sakaki or blank play entirely different the same game. Turn based is a sign of hours of grinding but once its lvl100 there ain't much to do. Just select attack and breeze thru.
Yeah, that's my biggest problem with "action is just button mashing blah blah blah". Nostalgic kids acting as if turn-based was fucking chess in terms of strategy, which is absolutely false, there's lots of attack spamming too.
Actually I would say turn-based RPGs in general are much more repetitive than good action-based ones.
@@Daniel_Rodrigues_89 of course that's the case. Final fantasy used to be the king of rpgs. Now that title belongs to elden ring or sekiro i guess. Turn based is pretty much done now its good for handheld gaming.
Thank you, that was an insightful/interesting video. I personally don't think the reason why the new Final Fantasy is abandoning turn based has anything to do with realism or immersion or whatever excuse they want to give for abandoning their roots. It has to do with what the company thinks will sell more and tells their devs to make. And they think action will sell more than turn based. To that I say "well, maybe." I'd say you never know until you try it. Go ahead. They can keep making action FFs. But I'd urge them to also "take the risk" and make a modern day FF with turn/command based battle system. THEN compare the sales. THEN they can make their conclusions. Either way, I won't blame a company for wanting to make more money. What bothers me is that their mind is already made up and are not even willing to try. They just assume that action is what sells. Well sure, but turn based sells too, as you've pointed out.
Doesn't the fact that a game like FFVIIR (possibly the biggest name in the genre of JRPG and possibly one of the most anticipated game ever to be announced and released, well before they announced that it was episodic) only sold 5 million copies while a game like Octopath Traveler (pretty much a no name game capitalizing on nostalgia, as some would say) sold a whopping 2.5 million copies speak volumes to how much the JRPG audience actually wants a good turn based RPG? I mean, do you know the difference in the production cost between the two games? FFVIIR cost a freaking $45 million to make and then another $100 million for marketing! I don't know what the production cost of Octopath Traveler was but we can all agree it was nowhere near half or even a third of that, not to mention the difference in marketing. Doesn't the fact that DQ XI (a traditional turn based JRPG that is supposed to suck so bad that no one in the younger generation in their right mind could possibly be buying) sold a whopping 1.5 million MORE copies than FFVIIR make you wonder what sales could have been like if Final Fantasy stayed true to its roots and went full on turn based?
Contrary to what has been said and assumed true for too long, turn/command based battle is not dead. There's turn based indie/low budget games and kickstarters popping up everywhere you look nowadays. In fact, "turn based" nowadays represents a selling point/feature. After all, people who love turn based are now the ones who have money to spend lol. Eiyuden Chronicles was the highest backed Kickstarter in 2020 with $4.6 million. More recently Armed Fantasia and Penny Blood reached its goal within 24 hrs and now has up to $1.5 million backed in less than 20 days. The devs had to turn to Kickstarter to prove turn based is alive because Sony repeatedly rejected to fund their projects. It's about time someone who really loves old school JRPGs to grow some balls and bring Final Fantasy back as the leader of turn based AAA JRPG once again. Go ahead and do something innovative and make a turn based Final Fantasy today.
On a side note, FFXII is such an amazing game and shows one possible route of evolution turn based JRPG could have taken. It was such a good evolution that you thought it was a "full on action game" while it was not an action game at all. After so many years, I can't get over how good that game is. Not trying to be argumentative at all. Just writing down my reaction and thoughts. Goes to show how good your video was. Cheers 👍
Agreed. Show me the bad selling mainstream turnbased Final Fantasy game? There is none. There is no evidence action games sell better. I dont think FF 7 remake even came close to topping FF X's numbers, let alone the FF 7 OG
I have to agree with you about the sales of FF7R. Fans had been begging for a remake for decades. Even if the game had sucked, the initial sales would have been through the roof because it was what fans wanted. It would have tapered off quickly if it was a bad game, of course, but the opening week would have been insane.
Square just recently did preorders for the Pixel Remasters for console, and it sold out in hours. Hours. Not days. Not weeks. In less than 8 hours it sold out for every console. If that isn't proof that turn based is still alive and kicking, I don't know what is. Forgot the indies out there, or the AAA titles like Persona or Dragon Quest. If games that are between 20-30 years old can sell out in hours, they know they've done something right. Especially with the fatigue generated by all the ports over the years.
When it comes to the immersion factor, Square had an answer decades ago. Chrono Trigger. The battles didn't take place on a different screen. They happened right there. The party just positioned themselves and got started. No transitions at all. To this day, that's still a major thing that Chrono Trigger has that makes it stand out from the crowd.
That sucks I was just talking about how I wish FF went back to turn based
Personally I don't care too much if it is Turn based or Action battle symbol, just as long as its fun and they are doing something new with its battle system. Although 2 small gripes, 1. Most FF games are more of an Active Battle System instead of full on turn based. I know they are still acknowledged as a typical Jrpg turn based, but it is really is a different battle system then the usually. Also 2. While I also don't see them going back to the Active time battles, I have also learned at this point to never say it won't happen. Crazy things happen in the video game industry and tastes change with time. Chances are unlikely, but never zero.
Ya the ATB basically isnt Turn based anymore. I guess u can say you steal turns but its not the same as traditional turn base
@@jikosauce Turn based is boring for me, but ATB is fun
If Persona 5 and Pokémon can be turn based, so can Final Fantasy. In keeping with tradition, they should be trying unique battle systems with each installment. Why not alternate between action rpg and turn bases? Have two development teams that specialize in each. As for realism, what exactly is stopping them from doing a cel shaded entry into the series?
Glad Atlus is still making good turn based games. Love how flashy Persona games are.
Final Fantasy XII was actually turn based combat. You could turn off gambits and give individual commands to your party members. It's really a dynamic ATB that allows you to fine tune strategies.
FFXIII is a turn based game focused on a more on the paradigm rather than individual actions, though you can still pick individual commands for the lead character. XV was really the first mainline entry to ditch any pretense of turn-based combat. And it did very well for SE.
I mean it really didn’t do square any favors people expected kingdom hearts 2 gameplay in ff15 and were greatly let down by its floatiness and unengaging combat style
The only favor that game did for them was telling them they should hire a good combat director drop the modern setting stick and give us a complete story at launch ff15 was so bad it has people debating if 13 was actually bad
But the rest of your point stands ff15 is there first action game in ff
Which is still mediocre compared to their weakest kingdom hearts game
@@OfficialDjTalksick Yeah, action combat isn't very immersive if you're just holding down the attack button the whole time.
I despise XV
so all this says is they took they money route, opt for photo realism, swap to action based combat, $$$
For me this reads "Why Final Fantasy isn't for you anymore" lol and that's fine, i'm kinda old. I have indies, and loads of old games. So it's totally cool. 🤗
They used to be limited by the technology they deveoloped on. Ah yes an epic dragon battle with 6 sprites and 4 frames of animation each. Exactly as they always envisioned. Now they can actually give you control in these massive actions set pieces they were before restricted from fully portraying
The problem I have with the argument in this video isn't even the argument itself, but rather what the argument is based on... A lot of people, including even Yoshi P, think that turn based combat is limited by the premise. Turn based combat can't mesh with a realistic style, because the combat and the style clash... HOWEVER. It's not the combat that clashes, but the way that the combat is presented. There have been games that have gone completely unnoticed as turn based, or debated on whether or not they're turn based, because of how they're presented. As an example, I would argue that until 15 was released, EVERY Final Fantasy game is based around turn based combat, because of how those games combat is designed. I would argue that all Xenoblade games are turn based. So many people consider turn based to be "stand there and use a menu to attack" when turn based combat can feel just as active as action based combat when designed around the idea of being active.
I just disagree because in those games you arnt taking turns. it can be the same premise as waiting for atb to recharge in 7 remake. There are way too many holes in that
@@Repaduski What makes Final Fantasy 7R an action and not turn based is the fact that you can mash the attack button for as long as you want while you wait to charge up for a more powerful attack, on top of the fact that you can stop your attack to go into a guard. I fail to see what the "hole" in my argument is.
@@kestune352 it sounds like you are strawmanning action combat, the discussion for action versus turn based combat is worth having but there needs to be more thoroughly defined lines that separate the 2 systems. According to your argument, Tales of Arise would be considered turn based because you can’t mash an attack button, there are basic attacks but there is a very limited number of those you can do in a combo and after that you have to sit and ‘wait your turn’ before you can attack again, in the combat you weave those attacks with skills to extend the combos. You can’t just mash the attack button, and from what it sounds as you definition of action, that is the prerequisite for action combat, but I don’t think anyone would ever say Tales is a turn based game
@@actular7591 After seeing that some people consider Final Fantasy IV, the SNES game that many consider to be a turn based RPG, be called an ARPG more than once, I've lost faith in what a lot of people think is a turn based game.
Turn based means there is a system in place to hinder how often you can act in a given amount of time. Action means there is no system in place to hinder how often you can act in a certain amount of time, although there may be a detriment to acting when you shouldn't. End of story.
Turn based combat is defined by your characters taking turns.
Action combat is defined by a more active control.
By your own admission those games are action based.
In a proper Turn Based game people ..... take turns.
When it is your turn you have all the time in the world to decide what to do and others wait for you. The world pauses on your turn.
In an Active system the world just goes whether you are making decisions or not.
In fact I would go further than this video and argue that Final Fantasy hasn't been a proper turn based game since 4.
Which is when they introduced the ATB system.
Which literally stands for Active Time Battle system. Note the use of the word Active.
The point was to make a more action based system around their limitations at the time.
You have to remember that a lot of the systems of yesteryear were defined by restrictions.
The reason we switch to a different screen when we start a fight wasn't an artistic choice...it was due to a ram limitation.
So no Xenoblade is definitely not turn based.
Also people need to realize that there is a difference between COMMAND based and TURN based.
FF is still command based. So is Xenoblade. Heck so is Kingdom hearts.
They just aren;t turn based.
I think the main problem is that FF turns more into a solo experience where your party members feel irrelevant.
Turn based combat gave you control over the whole party at once + characters you can switch out and use based on circumstances etc. This doesn't mean you can't do it with action combat but somehow the devs think action means less party members or making the main hero overpowered compared to the rest.
FF was always a party based experience where you could choose which characters to develop and they were all about equal (at least they tried ). If they can keep that aspect of the game I really see no problem with action combat as it is mainly a visual thing since you can have a menu in both and basically do the same just at another pace.
And just a notice FF 12 and 13 are atb = active turn battle , you should have mentioned that or reasearched properly.
I don't mind the modern Final Fantasy games steering away from turn based combat bc they usually retain a sense of strategy (FF12, FF13, FF7R, Crisis Core). My concern with FF16 is the same problem with FF15- I don't want it to be mindless attack mashing with zero strategy involved. Devil May Cry is an amazing game and I've enjoyed them all but it shouldn't even be in the same sentence as a Final Fantasy main title.
Yakuza 7 like a dragon was in a realistic setting yet the turn based combat was fun.
i think FF9 Remake would be perfect to get back to turn base. Because they could give FF9 a pixarArt style and i would fit very well
I would not be opposed to that. I imagine it’s either that, or they Just reimagine the characters
Modern final fantasy games are dead, the older titles are better. I'm glad we have great turn based games like persona etc.
Honestly completey disagree with Yoshida here. SE should just give the "two main lines series" idea a try. A action-based line developed exclusively for the latest Playstation. And a turnbased line, using the hardware and range of the PS4 to save costs and have maximum sales. It still could be on a graphic level like FF15, Horizon Zero Dawn, Red Dead Redemption. Or at least Crisis Core Reunion. But both with the same love and quality for story, gameplay, worldbuilding, music, artdesign, etc. And within those two mechanic frames, they could experiment however they want. I feel like that wouldn't be even a compromise. It would just a huge improvement of the variety this franchise already stands for. And it would a so much better investment than all the mobile games they are cutting off. Or experiments like forspoken. Or all the western brands they sold again. They have to remember how they got big in the west market. It was games like FF6, FF7, FF10. But also we shouldn't ignore that Crisis Core, FF15 and FF7R were very successful, too. So, there is nothing wrong with taking action gameplay into consideration. After the huge Octopath Traveler success, I have hope that maybe FF9 Remake will bring them to the conclusion that giving up turnbased games, wasn't a good way to go for actionbased games. Both is great and successful, if it is made with love and quality. And both fit into the Final Fantasy Universe.
We can make anything and call it a game, doesn't need to be realistic. (i.e: Football is a set of imaginary rules, and yet lots of people enjoy playing/watching it.) How "fun" a game is, depends on the game design & implementation.
There's no reason they can't do turn base, it's that they don't because they want things to be more visually "aesthetic" in that there's always action on the screen.
The problem is that when they do that, they're basically creating fighting games or fps games and not RPG games.
And I don't say that lightly. RPG IS decision making. Whether choose your own adventure or tabletop RPG, it's always has been about choices and having time to make choices, which dictates turn based systems.
I'm okay if it isn't, but why not create another Final Fantasy team that does make them as separate games? There is a market for both.
Just something to mention. FFXIV and FFXII are not action combat, they are charge time combat.
In my opinion there is no reason why turn based combat combat still can't be used. One of the world's biggest games still uses turn based combat and that's Pokemon. I think the issue lies within square themselves constantly trying to reinvent the wheel when it comes to combat. Personally I love turn based games and I hate to see it go whenever some franchise removes it for some arbitrary reason. There is a ton of variety that can come from turn based combat systems and everything going to action is making lots of action and more RPG games blend together
Pokémon is not an example that can be used. Turn based has nothing to do with it. Pokémon can sell garbage. If you pull the Pokémon skin off of the game it’s the worst turn based system on the market
@@Repaduski I would heavily disagree with that statement saying it’s the worst turn based system. Besides there are other turn based games that sell well like the Dragon quest series in Japan being one of the most popular RPGs there and Fire Emblem doing better than ever. And then there are games like Persona that still have retained its battle system. Not everything Pokémon sells regardless of its name, look at the mystery dungeon games and the other various spin offs of Pokémon declining in popularity over the years to the point that the only new non main line game we’ve gotten in a while was Snap. The mystery dungeon game on switch was a remake of the OG Red and Blue dungeon games. Pokken was really the last major spin off Pokémon got and that was on the Wii U if you don’t count the mobile games that they’ve made.
Also if people hated the Pokémon gameplay system they would of left a long time ago. The fact is the Pokémon turn based system is still quite popular and people don’t want to see it leave. It’s a relatively simple system that can have a ton of depth which is seen in competitive Pokémon
@@crestofhonor2349 did not just watch what happened with Pokémon? They got the most offensive release of the series history and it outsold everything before it. Don’t act like the Pokémon community votes with their wallet. They will take garbage on a plate. Final fantasy creators have a different vision. It’s not turn based. Let creator screate
@@Repaduski Pokemon's issues stem from Gamefreak being too small rather than it's underlying battle system. The battle system in pokemon is great the main issue stems from gamefreak constantly splitting it's staff up to work on games. Legends Arceus and Scarlet and Violet were produced around the same time but had Game Freak's main staff split into 2 separate teams while a different company went to work on BDSP. They were stretched too thin and this heavily effected the development of these games. Not only is Gamefreak not the greatest when it comes to the more technical side of graphics, they just don't have the staff to do exactly everything they want. Help from Monolith would do a ton to boost Game Freak's graphical capabilities just like how they help Nintendo a ton with their games like BOTW. What people take issue with is the cut National Dex and the fact that other features are missing such as many older features. The one thing I don't hear people complaining about with pokemon is the battles, its everything else that people take issue with. And it's not like S&V didn't do anything wrong, pokemon designs are still fine and the fact is the story is one of the best we've had since gen 5 for pokemon. There are a lot of ambitious ideas in S&V but they didn't have the staff to do so with the games
@@crestofhonor2349 yep and let not pretend like pokemon doesn't promote their own competitive tourneys based on their combat. Saying pokemon trash because of it's combat is very disingenuous.
There has to be a fundamental misunderstanding between people in regards to a lot of these terms, like "action game" vs "turn based" if you think FF 12 is a full on action game. Excluding the AI aspect, it functions no differently from FF 4-9. It's a turn based combat system.
This is just a really poorly researched video essay in general.
so its both?
@@jmgonzales7701 No it's not an "action" game at all. DMC is an action game, Dark Souls is an action game
Before FF7R came out, nearly every fan I ever talked to considered ATB to be turn-based combat. And Action RPGs were stuff like Tales Of and Star Ocean where characters were controlled in real-time. Never once saw an argument about it. Now people for whatever reason suddenly don't consider ATB to be turn-based, and think that party members moving around makes it an action game, even if you are still taking turns like any other old Squaresoft RPG. IIRC, DQ11 has a combat option where characters move around, that doesn't suddenly make it an Action RPG lol.
Yakuza Like A Dragon and Persona 5 show how great and viable turn-based action can be. I grew up eschewing turn based action and enjoying more active RPGs like Kingdom Hearts and Phantasy Star Online. Now though I am all about turn-based action.
Funny thing is I Checked Yoshi-p works and he never worked on a Turned based game aka JRPG and he says it’s dead …he never thought of the potential he made what he wanted (which is a good thing) but give the bread to the baker don’t make FF games make DMC games and leave turn based game to it’s people
Final Fantasy should adopt the battle systems of Xenoblade and The Last Story. I love turn-based RPGS, yet these games are a hybrid of real-time with turn based mechanics.
Paraphrasing: "Because the graphics allow us to make photo-real characters, turn based battle doesn't make sense."
Sure. I can imagine that would look awkward. But...no one said you guys had to keep making these ugly photo-real character designs that are bland, repetitive, and lack heart.
You really think 16 but pixels have more heart than actual human looking characters ???? Haha
@@Repaduski Generally yeah, but I'm also referring to all games pre FFX. FFVII, VIII, and IX all had loads of heart (well, VIII the least of the three) and thought put into their designs. Even humans didn't look like boring, generic humans. Think of Barret, Steiner, Edea, Kain, Rydia, Terra, FFIV Cid, Polom/Porom, Shadow, Gau, and on and on.
Think of all the games with unique character designs using other races, like the Viera, Ronso, plus Red XIII, Umaro, etc.
@@AerianR that’s just a very very specific preference. Incredibly emotive faces with animation is going to give that more often. I’ll never disregard the old game. They are amazing. But to say these are not good character designs is wild. The entire cast of 16 looks compelling. Plus after seeing how well they act this past week? Oh man
I actually think you're completely wrong about turn based not being able to translate into an equally immersive experience. It's all about finding ways to interpret or express the animations in line with the systems more creatively. I think games like Baldurs Gate and Pillars of Eternity show quite easily how you can do it. It is more RTS per se, but with cool downs it essentially is turn based, instead of characters standing still, they can come up with ways they are animated, either charging, engaged in a duel waiting for a hit after successive blocks or positioning with each other, the list goes on.
Designers problem solve
I enjoy turn based combat but as kid I always wanted a action based final fantasy game like kingdom hearts when final fantasy 15 happen I was so hype And tbh i cant wait to experience more combat based final fantasy games
The elements I like in JRPGs gone from FF series... so I simply stopped playing the series, I never asked for realistic graphics or hack n slash. Glad that indie projects are making great and fun games nowadays for way less money.
Great video. I'm 38 and it hurts that FF isn't turn based anymore . Next to story it was the main reason I would play them. I get that times change and you have to follow where the money is. :(
Turn based is more immersive than real time. FF is good because of the atmosphere, art, music and vibes you take in. You cant take those in to the same degree with an action game because you are focusing on the action. Sitting at the edge of your seat. The old games worked because they were relaxing.
@zeantunes4021 Its not though. Any time reaction time is important, its not relaxing.
Basically you’re shit at games and you’re mad that FF is finally gonna require skill
Elden Ring disagrees with your take.
I had no problem defeating Margit, Godrick, Rennala, Rykard, Radahn, Goldfrey, Morgott, Maliketh, Hoarah Loux, Radagon and Elden Beast while enjoying the atmosphere, art style, music and vibes created by From Software.
Obviously a mediocre action game will always be inferior to the best turn based games out there BUT the best action games will always be better than any turn based game.
@@Tetsuo_88 lol I got NOTHING from the story of elden ring. I still have no idea what that game was about. Really dont understand any of the lore. There are no characters to speak of. Never even talked to that shit eater guy.... Generally when you are in a hostile world where you are worried about surviving, you aren't in much of a state of curiosity. Personally liked dark souls 1 and 3 better than elden ring.
What the hell is immersive about playing “here you hit me then i hit you” over and over and over again?
It looks stupid. It’s always looked stupid. It’s always been a dumb gameplay style and I’m GLAD its been thrown in the garbage where it belongs
I completely and respectfully disagree. No one said that a turn-based battle system needed a transition screen nor a break from the flow of the game or the narrative. As part of Final Fantasy’s DNA, being the innovator of the battle system, it’s Square Enix’s job to innovate on it and modernize it, not abandon it and turn the series into something unrecognizable.
There is a different level of depth and dynamic that turn-based battle systems provide that cannot be replicated in a button masher. It’s a different kind of fun. Not better. Not worse. In FFXV, you’re just grasping the general situation of the battle and making the occasional intervention, letting the computer make a lot of the decisions for you, while you’re mashing away at the attack button. The fact that numerous overlaid ephemeral damage indicators just flash by when you attack, as if you’re not really meant to register exactly how much damage you just dealt is why we call these types of games “mindless.” It doesn’t really matter if you know exactly how much damage you dealt, because you’re more of an involved spectator of the battle rather than the conductor of it. In a turn-based battle system, you’re mindful of every move each actor is making. You’re in full control of the battle, and you’re taking the time to think about the impact that each individual move will have, with Final Fantasy’s then-innovative ATB system adding tension and forcing you to think quickly. Button mashers are fun, but it’s not what the fans of the earlier games of the series are looking for in a Final Fantasy.
As for the argument that turn-based battle systems are not fitting of the art style (which I also disagree with, but just for the sake of argument), then the art style is not fitting of Final Fantasy. If Pokémon decided to stop innovating their turn-based battle system and switched to an action style because they decided to go for photo-realism, then the decision to go for photo-realism would be the problem. But again, I don’t think the battle system has anything to do with the art style.
Final Fantasy is not Game of Throne. It’s not Dark Souls. It’s not Devil May Cry. Unfortunately, instead of creating a new IP, Square Enix has killed Final Fantasy, and slapped the name on something that is a blend of those games.
I understand that “kids these days” did not grow up with turn-based games, but that’s because they have no been given an example of how engaging and fun a AAA turn-based RPG could be.
have you seen the trailer for clair obscur expedition 33?
Yeah i love it! lets see what happens
They can still be turn-based. FF13 had a great modification to the ATB system that was fast and fluid. The problem with that game was the rest of it. (I.E.: the hallway) But combine the battle system of FF13 with the open world style of FF15 or FF16, and I think you’d have a winning combination.
Another great battle system for modern RPGs is the one featured in FF12. I think that one is even better suited for open world RPGs that need seamless transitions between the field map and the battle screen.
Yeah, a huge problem with this video essay is that they falsely assumed FF12 was not turn-based (it is), then neglected to mention 13 at all, and then based every subsequent premise about realism on that shaky foundation. FF12, 13, and Dragon Age show that you can have realistic graphics in a turn based system with some forethought.
The realism argument is total nonsense.
@@universalgramarye It really isn't. Realistic people standing around letting monsters beat up on them looks fucking awful to the casual, the ones that will buy your game and propel your product to new sales heights.
@@RicochetForce There are ways of avoiding that. FFXIII did with its faster-paced ATB turn-based system. You could have tanks who specialize in blocking. You can use timed button presses.
There are any number of things you can do to shake up the formula, so abandoning turn-based isn't the answer, it's just dodging the question.
I just want to see one AAA game try it. I want to be the target audience one time. I'm tired of every turn-based game being a microbudget 2D game or a stylized game that's one or two generations behind on graphics.
I feel like this video is coming from a somewhat purist definition of turn based combat. There are games like F12, Knights of the Old Republic, and maybe even Grandia that employ rules based systems and are not action games, but would be disqualified because they require you to make active decisions against timers
Ok, so it's immersion and setting that make people disconnect with turn based gameplay? There are LitRPG books out there that figured this out years ago. Make your setting some sort of VR where the main gameplay is turn based....then pop into the "real world" for arpg sequences. No immersion lost and both sides get what they want while the game still has the old school jrpg vibe. Imagine Assassin's Creed 2 general story idea and you'll understand how it could work if done right
Considering Persona, Yakuza and Dragon Quest does it amazingly well while keeping to their roots shows its possible with work and creativity.
Legend of heroes is another example.
That's my problem with ffxvi if it was like FFVII remake okay but it feels DMC with FF just slap on.
If I wanted DMC I would play DMC.
Realistic graphics can't have turn based battles is a complete nonsensical statement. Not only is it fundamentally false, but there has not been a modern AAA FF game with turn based combat to prove or disprove how successful it would be. I think common sense dictates that a turn based FF game would sell significantly more than their current action RPGS. There are more people playing video games today than 20 years ago and yet those older titles have more copies sold than their newer entries. So it's not risky to make it turn based, it's risky to not make it turn based, as they could effectively be selling 20m+ copies of their new FF games if they just gave the customers what they wanted and stopped trying to get a slice of pie from random gaming trends in which they are a completely irrelevant player.
I used to be so excited for an upcoming Final Fantasy game, counting the months and then the days before it came out.
That totally disappeared and this is a huge part of it. Luckily, there are still other JRPGs that do have turn-based combat.
Never thought I would say it, but not going to even buy or try this.
If I’m being honest, full humanoid realistic looking characters like the ones in final fantasy are the kind of characters I want to play as in real time. I literally loved the last sephiroth fight in 7r.
Yeah, when playing the original FFVII I always had my imagination running wild about running around in that world fully 3D with action combat.
@@RicochetForce like, I understand the older appeal, but the more the graphics of ff improve, the less I want to see them take turn based actions.
@@malonee Oh, I'm right there with you. I feel that reverting to turnbased but keeping all the other production values kind of squanders the benefits of realtime gameplay. I've seen people complain that they should bring back prerendered backgrounds and fixed camera angles as well.
What these requests are is people pining for their childhood to come back, for games to look like they did when they first got blown away by them. I understand that feeling because I grew up then and held those beliefs.
But after playing countless games with realtime traversal through fully 3D worlds with player controlled cameras (due, Elden Ring ALONE is a case in point) I never want to go back to that old style. We can do so much more with our modern techniques.
@@RicochetForce exactly! I have no problem with turn based games, but ff having the graphics and real time looks to it, I just wouldn’t want that in ff!
I honestly only really want it in anime games like persona or things like xcom or Pokémon, definitely not in newer ff’s!
Honestly, if they did a 1:1 remake of ff10 and it had a similar/improved fighting style of 7 remake, I’d buy it and take a couple days off work to beat it in a heartbeat!
Personally im completely okay with never getting another turn based final fantasy. But i do have something to say that refutes the artstyle not working for turnbased final fantasy anymore...
Yakuza: Like A Dragon
Also Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy XIII look like good enough proof of concepts to me. the graphics arent cartoony there.
Those graphics are very fantasy esq, in no way photo real or realistic looking people so it works. Same with Like a dragon. Its edges looking more realistic however it full of goofy shit so it evens out in many ways.
@@Repaduski FInal Fantasy doesnt always have to shoot for photo realism though. Remember how FF 9 came out after FF 8? Also none of your evidence shows a Turnbased Final Fantasy wouldnt sell. The highest selling FF games in the series are still FF 7 original and FF X. There is no evidence Remake is selling faster than those. You also compare Persona which is a FAR NICHE series compared to FF. The fact that a turnbased game anime game came anywhere close to FF 7 remake actually discredits your arguments imo.
i originally was angry about the ff7 remake (have not yet played it waiting for all 3-4 episodes) not being TBC but after some time i do see how the change is needed and i take grate "solace?" i dont know im glad anyways.. that remasters are made i have played ff7.8.9 more and a grown man than i ever did as a young boy after the remasters came to steam. and im super happy about remasters of most of the games i loved as a child like age of empires heroes of might and magic etc etc and those are for me and my like minded games let them do what they think is best for them and get the new generation to maybe love the new games as much as we did those 20-30 yrs ago. but so help me god if they somehow make a remake of the legend of the dragoon and remove TBC im burning some building down O.o waited for a rerelease or remaster for so long....
They should do like the resident evil series and split the games into 2 gameplay types. In Re's case it's 1st person games and 3rd person. I only play FF games with the new battle system because they're forcing me. Not because I actually want it. The battles in FF7 remake don't appeal to me at all
This
It's very simple: When they go back to turn-based combat, I will go back to buying Final Fantasy.
"It's weird to see realistic characters in a realistic world stand around and wait to attack their enemy"
Ya, it's way more realistic for those characters to teleport slash into an enemy then jump 15 feet into the air and juggle an enemy 20 times before turning into fire and ground pounding them into the earth. THATS realism!
This whole video is a pretty hot take.
Just because more games with realistic art style happen to have more action gameplay doesn't mean turn based combat can't work with a more realistic art style. it just means it hasn't been done as much yet. Square could defiantly find a way to make turn based combat work with a modern art style and modern cinematography and game design, they have just decided to make a boring DMC combat instead.
To be perfectly honest, I would prefer an option to have turn based or action(and yes I know it would be a lot more work), to satisfy both sides. Sometimes I like action RPG's, other times I like turn-based, it would be nice to be able to choose based on my mood at the time. And yeah, the graphics have absolutely no effect on that.
I was hoping that would be the case with FF7R with it's classic mode
@@InitialDL84 the thing is if they do this one side is getting less focus because the other side is what the game is built around.
That might not be worth it. I believe it's hard not to have a true base system where the other is just an extra that may have issues. And it's obvious that this base system would be action type, knowing the devs mindset.
I'd say just branch out two different types of games, kinda like the lately Resident Evil direction of having 1st person games and 3rd person games - and these ones are not low cost side things, they are also high standards games. So make FF games that are action type and others that are turn type. FF is big enough to afford this approach.
@@carlosaugusto9821 Yes, I know that it would be a lot more work, I said that in my comment. As or your second paragraph, we are specifically talking about rpgs, and even more specific turn based or action rpgs. Resident Evil is neither.
And now there is Baldurs Gate 3 which basicly did everything old FF fans are asking for. lol. 10 Million sales withn a half of a year. Square can only dream for that.
it may sound like there's a gap, but in actuality, it's not that jarring. i would love for a hyper-realistic game do turn-based. it might be silly but it definitely doesn't take away the immersion for me in the slightest. ffvii remake could have sold more if it was turn-based. the demographic would be in the older crowd though for sure. there are many ffvii fans who didnt want to get it or play it just because it was action based.