How To Make RPG Combat More Interesting
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2020
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RPGs are a classic genre - so much so that they've been around since before the dawn of videogames. However, despite their years of evolution and tradition, RPGs have a problem - namely, that no-one can ever finish the damn things, why?
The Architect thinks it's got something to do with how they handle combat - something that's core to the RPG identity, yet is also one of their weakest elements. How can this be? What can be done about it? Watch the video and find out, dummy.
Check out Noah!: / @broadcaststsatic
You Saw:
Final Fantasy 15 - 2016
Fallout: New Vegas - 2010
Pokemon Fire Red - 2014
Chrono Trigger - 1995
Dragon Quest 11 - 2017
Darkest Dungeon - 2016
Final Fantasy 7 - 1997
Xcom: Chimera Squad - 2020
Dark Souls - 2012
Wandersong - 2018
Wizardry 1 - 1981
For The King - 2017
Skyrim - 2011
Final Fantasy 6 - 1994
Divinity Original Sin 2 - 2017
Monster Hunter World - 2018
Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door - 2004
Star Renegades - 2020
Borderlands 3 - 2019
Disgaea 4 complete - 2019
Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga and Bowser's Minions - 2017
YIIK: The Postmodern RPG - 2019
Xenoblade Chronicles: Definitive Edition - 2020
Indivisible - 2019
The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds - 2013
The Outer Worlds- 2019
Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light - 1990
Fire Emblem: 2 Houses and Golden Deer - 2019
Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword - 2003
Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance - 2005
Pokemon Ultra Moon- 2017
Pokemon Platinum- 2008
Path of Exile- 2013
Knights of the old Republic 2 - 2004
The Hex - 2018
Mass Effect 2 - 2012
Fallout 3- 2008
Persona 5 - 2017
Final Fantasy 7 Remake - 2020
Saints Row 4 - 2013
Barlkley's Shut up and Jam: Gaiden - 2008
Shadowrun: Dragonfall - 2014
South Park: The Stick of Truth - 2014
Nier Automata - 2017
Disco Elysum - 2020
West of Loathing - 2017
Dragon Quest 1 - 1986
The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - 2015
Fire Emblem Fates - 2015
TerraNil - 2020 - Ігри
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love the vids adam also first
I got a deja vu from this vid, is it a reupload?
I also have trouble finishing games
After playing Hylics I started doing a lot of research on turned based combat an I'm glad you made this video.
The true problem in my opinion is not having enough patience to not play part of our ever expanding back log.
"Not every RPG needs to be about teenagers killing God" I agree let's have a RPG about a God killing teenagers for once
Ahem, may I introduce you to the holy bible? It’s the best peace of story ever written! It’s even got a part where a priest gets a bunch of kids mauled by bears because they teased him via the power of god!
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking up the path, some small boys came out of the city and harassed him, chanting, "Go up, baldy! Go up, baldy!"
He turned around, looked at them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and mauled 42 of the children.
Yeah! Child murder’s the best! Especially when it’s done in the name of the LORD!
Have you played God of War?😅
@@redactedoktor Bruh
Homestuck
@@Iamwrongbut rpg not hack and slash
"Not every RPG needs to be about teenagers killing god" - 90% of JRPG left the chat
I wish xenoblade chronicles ended like 10 hours earlier so it didn't fall into this trope.
or unusual new guy being used by some political factions for its goals
@@djsquishy7403 Demifiend punched god so hard in the face that he died
I feel this, even watching Anime. What is the Japanese obsession with killing god/gods? They have an unhealthy obsession with this subject... not only that... the demons are loving, understanding, and caring while the angels are militant superior than thou asses trying to genocide everything. I love a good human that can be killed with a simple bullet but can kill a god that is bulletproof... not!
A JRPG without a teenager killing god is just plain RPG.
*opens game not played in years.
Me: "Where the fk am I?"
That's one reason I never finish. I get lost and end up having to start over.
To quote Gandalf the Grey:
"I have no memory of this place..."
@@quincyrogers9826 Dragon Quest actually has a recap function
@@dylangoins2663 Ironically enough I haven't played it
@@dylangoins2663 yep and this helps a lot
"Not every RPG needs to be about teenagers killing god."
Somebody please make an RPG about geriatrics on a quest to kill god.
In about 30 years time Adol Christin will be in his 50's and probably on a quest to stop/kill some form of god.
Final Fantasy 4
SMT DDS
Older AI programs go to fight a god
Terry Pratchett wrote a comedy story about that.
How about a game where you're the god killing teenagers... Oh wait god of war already did that
Toolsets-->Resources, Encounters-->Problems, Layers--> General systems (RPGs). Alternatively, for the G, "Gimmicks" or "Groundwork" I expect my royalty check by next monday.
alas i haveno money kind stranger, have a thumb and heart instead
@@ArchitectofGames Ill take that, and your awesome videos, cheers ~~
assets, scenarios, synergy
@@ArchitectofGames
how much is that in the black market
@@mookooy or systems but yea
Ah yes, the most underappreciated gem, Pokemon.
He does have a point though. Pokemon games take a long time to complete, and I’ve never felt bored enough to end a run in one, despite the grinding. They are definitely underappreciated in that area imo. Fav gen is gen 4 btw
Pokemen?
Ah yes, the game where you poke a mon
Generations 3-5 anyways. That was the era where Pokemon was at its lowest popularity and highest quality, funnily enough. The first 2 generations aged poorly, and the series has gone downhill since the success of Pokemon Go.
That, um, that was the joke
I think EarthBound had the right idea (or at least *a* right idea) of skipping combat entirely if you’re so much more powerful than the enemy that you’d beat them in one round anyway.
I also like how in certain RPGs, earthbound included, you can initiate battles by running into enemies on the map, and if you are that much stronger than them, they will run away in fear. LMAO
I agree, but I think in that case it was a practical solution to the fact that the combat in Earthbound was a slog anyway.
Earthbound's ease of play was heavensent. It was still challenging ocasionally, but it was never rage-inducing. I particularly loved the rolling HP counter.
@@timseguine2 no it wasn't. Those scroll meters were everything.
@@TheCaliforniaHP You can get through almost all battles in the game by brainless button mashing. Bosses are pretty much the only exception. How is that not a slog?
I find that the most important aspect to sticking with an RPG is pacing. A great combat system doesn't work if the task is repetitive and there isn't an end in sight.
YES!
"Zubat genocide" sounds like a great name for a Pokémon themed metal band.
Until Nintendo comes running and copyright claims all of your songs
@@sh4dy832 nintendo, gonna sue em all, in a world we must spend.
Zoo bat genocide
With hits such as:
Poisoned again.
Fucking Confusion!
Full Restore? Really?!
Ra
Sexy cloud lady into Sexy lady Cloud has to be one of the best one-two punch jokes I've heard in a long time
that whole segment was written to justify that joke
And sliding into a distracted bi fadeout 😆 Love your particular insights and rambling 👍💚
Distracted bi is my middle name.
I mean, not really, but you get the point.
@@Zzz-qv9iy cringes in ""raw bisexual energy""
@@ArchitectofGames Your dedication to humor is admirable.
Wait
Actions
Scenes
Systems
Works perfectly fine, I'd say
The "layers" part is incredibly important, and possibly the most under-utilized element for most RPG's, I feel. When I've slaughtered about 1,000 bandits and they STILL KEEP APPEARING, at some point I'm going to raise an eyebrow when every town I visit has maybe 20 people each. Does that mean there's a higher population of bandits than regular people in this world?
Exact same problem in Skyrim. One bandit cave has a higher population of people then every single city in the entire game.
If sexualized characters is the most important part of RPGs, then clearly (modded) Bethesda games are hands down the best RPGs of all time.
Regular ones yes , the OVERLY modded ones that almost breaks the game aren't
I feel like that's one of the biggest reasons why PC master race is expanding (I aspire to ascend to this level).
If you look at it objectively, this is a very good argument. If developers don't serve that market (actually they do it just very reserved because the society as a whole wouldn't approve it if they go all-in) the gamers will produce it themselves with the tools they're given.
Fact, everybody wants their female Fallout/TES protag to have... *large assets...* Personally, always look to adding a modded minigun in FO4.
Well then Devil may Cry would be best RPG series by how they over sexualize their female cast.
"a great sense of momentum that is-"
"constantly interrup-"
you got me once, shame on you
you got me twice, shame on me
ok but for real that gave me flashbacks to my childhood, a feeling I had forgotten since
believe me... the struggle was real
FFX
@@sidharthbommineni7780 damn I can still hear that horrendous music
10:40 "There's only so much complexity developers can add before players are spending more time navigating menu's then they are actually playing, which is never a good thing."
*Me in SMTIV and Persona 5 spending dozens of hours just fusing demons:* What are you talking about?
Half my play time is just sitting in the Velvet Room and I LIKE IT.
Fusing demons/persona it's addictive xD
One time I spent hours in the relevant from trying to complete the twins request and I was broke by the end
It's always a good thing
Unless the entire games audience are idiots with no patience
I love complicated menus...
There's few things more satisfying in Videogames than spending half an hour fusing demons/personas and coming out with a couple of really strong babies
For me it’s the grind. I’ve had too many RPG’s (JRPG’s in particular) where I’ve had to grind and grind and grind and grind to get through a particular part of the game and progress only to find once I’ve done that there is another steep difficulty curve that means I have to grind and grind and grind and grind again. It gets too monotonous!
This. Grinding is lame and boring. However, there's a couple of games that make grinding either somewhat fun or at least feel rewarding. An example is Lord of the Rings The Third Age. I can't believe that FFX copycat game was as good as it was. In it, you use your combat/support skills to gain points... Which unlock more skills! It's as simple as that. All they did was create cool skills for every character, and then the way to unlock more is by using previous skills. Simple and brilliant. It also feels rewarding because the new ones you get are almost all useful and look even cooler.
Another example is FFIX. The way you learn abilities is by equipping gear that teaches such abilities and fighting to earn AP, after your character is done learning you can switch gear. This feels rewarding because it lets you tailor your characters with the skills you want on them, ignoring ones you don't care about.
@@Walamonga1313 some people like grinding. That’s like a classic rpg feature.
@@aidankhaos7687 I think it goes back to what was said in the video. If the mechanics are interesting then you’re happy to do the grind but if they’re not, or they’ve stopped being interesting, that’s where the difficulty spike becomes terminal. It’s the most common reason that I’ll quit an RPG. There have been quite a few games where after 20 hours I’m bored and just rushing the story. Throw a difficulty spike my way at that point and I don’t have the motivation to overcome it. I’ve done that with a lot of Final Fantasy games actually where it opens up the side content at the end of the game, at a point where I’ve usually had enough and just want to complete the story. If I can’t beat the last boss without the end game gear or spells, I often just don’t bother (eg FFIII, V, VI, VIII and X).
Gamers these days love grinding for some reason. I can't stand it. It's not rewarding if you have to do it constantly. Doing chores are called chores for a reason.
Here's a crazy idea. Maybe.. .maybe... games don't have to be combat focused? I get tired of people complaining about stealth archers in skyrim. Like... I don't play skyrim for the combat, so one hit killing someone from stealth is satisfying because it gets me through an area to see what's next.
I hated it then and I hate it now. Chrono Trigger had the best idea. You will always be at the level you need to be based on these fights that we have for you.
These things make me lose interest:
- after 20 hours only pallet swap monsters with same abilities
-no new skills for your party. Only stronger versions of previous skills.
-Colourfull and vibrant world which turns into metal mazes or wastelands when you enter hell, another dimension, the future in the last 20% of game. And many boring mazes.
-the world map opening up with up to 20 hours of many uninteresting side quests needed to level up to be strong enough for the story while the big baddy sits in a tower, in the sky, hell or whatever waiting for you.
you can play the trails series if you haven't heard about it.
these games are gems that everyone should experience
Aside from the second point (although it feels more like good progression due to how the skills work).
Shin Megami Tensei is right up your alley.
@@FyrenRei Havent played it but will look into it.
@@Edwinschuur consider SMT Nocturne (not the remake, they botched it and I doubt they will fix it for the international release so just emulate it), SMT soul Hackers, Digital Devil Saga 1&2 (it's the same story just in parts) and maybe Strange Journey.
Hope you like them.
What games are you referring to, Edwin?
A.S.S
Actions
Situations
Substance
give this man a cookie.
Damn, this game has a good ass.
I say something similar Gameplay, Content, Substance. But Lite Action RPGs are better, keep the systems simple (Activate Skills, Unlocking Area = Skyrim's Menu/DEF/ATK is a good example), diverse (Foes/Ecosystem/features, NO COPYCAT MARKETING), Design robust interface and just do whatever with the story
@@polkanietzsche5016 *Nier: Automata has entered the chat*
Substance, especially in ludonarrativity. Game can have the most meaningful story ever and it doesn't mean shit unless the mechanics interact with the narrative properly.
There needs to be what I call a “CRUNCH” feel to the combat. When you land a critical hit or overkill an enemy, you should feel it.
It’s not enough to use different strategies, but you should be constantly learning new things and being challenged. I legitimately think intimidation and overwhelming the player at points can rekindle that want to beat the game.
Octopath and bravely default did this very well
A lot of that is on sound design and even controller haptics. You should play Dragon's Dogma (and Street Fighter II haha)
So in other words, you want the enemy to be gibbed if you overkill them
@@kpp28 And so did the Dragon Quest series.
Yeah I love when I somehow deal like 1000 damage after using mechanics in my favor to a 250 hp enemy
When discussing enemies weak to certain specific moves, I'm reminded of Metroid Prime. There, enemies are often weak to one of the four beam weapons in terms of damage, but there's often reason to use the others anyway. Ice Beam can freeze enemies so you can just kill them with a missle when that happens, Plasma Beam can burn enemies, giving chip damage, Wave Beam tracks enemies in case you suck at aiming or they move around a lot, and Power Beam can rapid fire. Most often there's a preferred option, but you often have reason to use the others if you feel like it, or maybe if there are multiple different enemies weak to different weapons (as switching takes about one precious second)
I think some of the issue here is just how broad a descriptor "RPG" is. The term refers to as disparate games as Disco Elysium (a 100% story focused game with no dedicated combat systems) and Etrian Odyssey (a dungeon crawler series with almost no story fully focused on turn-based RPG combat). Saying those two games are in the same genre is the equivalent of saying Devil May Cry and Call of Duty are both action games. Like, I guess its technically true by certain definitions but at that point, are those definitions even useful? Can you even give design advice that covers both? Like, a lot of the suggestions in this video are brilliant... for a more story-focused game. But I'm not sure they'd work as well applied to a dungeon crawler, for instance.
Hell, he even called XCOM an RPG.
Very good point. RPGs are far too broad a spectrum for the term to truly be useful especially considering the fact that most games these days have some sort of RPG esque levelling up system for items or characters that you could point to as evidence of them being an RPG even if they're really not. It's like throwing a song of Ice and fire into the same category as a generic isekai fantasy anime. Both are fantasy but VERY different experiences.
This is why people need to stop stretching the term RPG around any old game with items and character progression.
Roleplaying is players acting out the story and personality of their characters, which is easiest at a tabletop with a GM so the story can immediately change and flow naturally from the character’s decisions. It’s much harder to do in a video game where so many more things have to be predetermined, but not impossible.
Lindybeige has a video about a LARP event he went to, and recalls a moment where he played billiards with another player. They stayed in character, pretending to be people from the early 20th century or something, throughout the whole game, despite nobody else being present. That’s true roleplaying - it’s not _about_ combat or levels or items, although those can help if done right.
A true Role-Playing Game is a Game that encourages Role-Playing. And I understand that’s hard to quantify, but that’s why subgenres are a thing. Understood correctly, the term is perfectly useful - the problem is the people who throw the term RPG onto anything that looks superficially similar to other ones they’ve seen.
Yeah, but that same problem also works in reverse.
90-95% of The Legend of Zelda overlaps with JRPG design, yet it generally ISN'T considered an RPG for some extremely nebulous reasons.
You take any random JRPG and compare it to Zelda and tell me why one is an RPG and the other is not, exactly?
It just makes it all the more obvious how vague of a term RPG actually is when you can have a game that fits most of the expectations for an RPG sub-genre yet isn't considered one...
What makes something an RPG?
When is a game Action RPG and when does it become Action Adventure?
When do game mechanics stop mattering at all? (like, is portal an FPS or not? Mechanically everything about it functions the way an FPS would, right down to the core gameplay tool being framed as being a 'gun' - yet clearly it has little in common with one otherwise...)
@@Jhakaro A progression system (what you described) does not make something an RPG
Progression systems are just a tool RPG's commonly use, they are not "RPG systems"
Like, wheels aren't "car systems" they're just a system that cars use that other vehicles also use
Would love to know which 20% of RPGs you completed and why.
The big thing I've noticed more than combat is the issue of pacing. Lots of RPGs have you end up at a point around 70-80% of the way through where the game just stalls. You've unlocked/discovered all the major characters and systems and you get to a point in the narrative where you have to decide whether to finish all of the housekeeping sidequests or pass the point of no return and lock out all of the unfinished content to power through to the end.
I've also noticed a problem with some RPGs, where there's a HUGE difficulty spike in the last dungeon, you were doing fine and then you get to the next story dungeon and now you're barely surviving fights and it's clear that they tried to force you into doing the optional content to get strong enough. Games such as FFX and Breath of Fire 4 fall into this trap, and it just feels lame. Doing fine, unlock the last dungeon, get roflstomped in the first random battle all within 30 minutes is not fun. Oh, and in BoF4's case... nothing gives good XP except for the last dungeon, so you have a slow slog grind to get up to power first. There's a reason why I never finished BoF4 and this is that reason. Got to the last dungeon twice, and stopped there because the amount of grinding it would take to get powerful enough to actually get through it..... no thanks.
@@Dhalin You should see how bad the endgame difficulty spike was for Arc the Lad 2. I didn't want to grind, so the final boss took me two and a half hours of real-life time to beat.
"Why don't you just TELL me the RPG improvements you have selected?" - Kramer from Seinfeld, probably
A like for "Dungeons, Dungeons and more Dungeons" :D
Damm I forgot were that is from
@@asaptrizzy967 should i tell you or you'll find it yourself? :b
i play d&d&d and i never entered a dungeon
Okey pinetree and shooting star
@@antekacki8753 please tell me
I like how you used the bard finding the sword in Wandersong for "rewarding with an item in an rpg".
Expectations Subverted
I thought this same thing
Almost as good as him including footage from the "RPG" section of The Hex. (13:20 for those that haven't played it. Which I highly recommend you do.)
Weeb
Tales of Graces F is still my favorite RPG combat system since it manages to make even quickly dispatching underleveled fodder enemies feels satisfying.
I think Mother 3 is a great example of engaging rpg combat mechanics, notably with the music note attacks. Them being difficult to pull off encourages players to fight and grind battles in order to get the patterns down correctly, and the wide range of battle music and boss themes mixes up the formula all throughout the game.
You know, playing Morrowind reminds me of one thing. Roleplaying Games are not about combat, they are not about action. They are about immersion, worldbuilding and writing. Let's be honest, as fun as the New Vegas combat can be. It is not the reason anyone actually play that game today.
And in Morrowind we can all agree that early level combat is a frustrating and frankly poorly designed. And yet we return to it, yet it has the most dedicated Modding community around. The quests are not about fighting and killing, even when it is the objective. The game is about exploration, immersion and investigation. As are the quests, you have to actively navigate to the right place, you are met with interesting locales and cultural traditions. A lot of times it is a puzzle or mystery to sort out.
One early Morrowind quest is to deliver the glove of a Breton lady to a Dunmer bandit somewhere in Pelagiad. You have a name, a sex and a race to go on, but you still have to actively search the town as there are no quest markers within the game. A fighter's guild quest instructs you to hunt down some egg thieves, but you still have to find the egg mine and investigate it in order to find and confront them. Giving you a reason to interact with the unique form of agriculture within Morrowind.
In a completely unhelpful way I think you are totally right.. and wrong.
Personally, I think that a roleplaying game is about the story, world and the role you play in it. It might have fighting it might not, who cares it is still roleplaying. So on that I totally agree.
However RPGs conversely, often are centered around leveling and progression. A numbers game that has little to do with playing any role other than the limited one on offer. This is due to the limitations in old games, but it is such a part of our gaming culture that it is what many think of first whenever roleplay games or RPGs are mentioned.
I think the first is right, sadly many think the second is all there is.
What’s great about Morrowind is that the early game is based on traversing the world - how do I get to this place? Where is that guy I’m supposed to talk to? What the fuck is a Dwemer? But as the game progresses and you figure out how the world works the game becomes more based on the mechanics which is also about the time you gain access to the more diverse and higher quality spells, weapons, enchantments, potions etc
The alien worlds an ambient environment noise are keys to the Morrowind experience.
@jocaguz18 100% agree with this. I read reviews for morrowind and I'd heard all about how weak and slow you start out, but when I actually got into the game I was still unprepared for how miserable it was to play and how long it took to get any kind of advancement. I came back to the game a few years later, but I came armed with all the cheat codes. And I still haven't finished it. But I will say the world-building in morrowind is pretty good, so I'll probably come back to it again at some point but I don't think I'll ever bother playing without cheats.
Ngl morrowinds frankly horrible combat is the main thing preventing me from getting into the game. To a lesser extent I have the same issue with Oblivion. Skyrim's combat is just competent enough to not actively work against the games strengths, which is sad because I think some of added depth in earlier titles as far as rpg mechanics go are a lot more interesting than Skyrims over-simplified systems.
The only things an RPG needs to make me finish it are these three things:
1. A lack of grinding. I don't wanna spend 30 hours trying to get a magic spell.
2. Interesting locations. If the story isn't interesting enough at least make the world feel more lively and more "eye-candy".
3. Optional encounters. I don't want the enter animation every 10 steps and leaving to luck the escape option, if I'm gonna run away then I want to literally run away, maybe just running away (like, I don't know, Xenoblade) or using some sort of run minigame based on skill and not on luck (like Paper Mario).
My man do I have the rpg for you, Bravely Default:
- grinding is not necessary at all and all random encounters are in the hands of the player's option menu, both to the encounter rate and chaining enounters to grind more exp by chaining said encounters.
- The whole art style is so pretty, one of the best looking 3ds games ever.
@@bukler3934 Until know I have just read good things about BD but never played, maybe I will some day, but first I have to get a new 3ds/2ds because mine doesn't work anymore.
Or maybe I can just... Arrrrgh (?
@@juanrodriguez9971 Citra is a great... replication device for your Jack Sparrow cosplay. I personally wouldn't recommend Bravely Default because the last act gets very repetitive but the rest of the game is solid and should be fine as long as you can push through the last few hours.
@@dragonarrow5525 That's something thay I usually read too "It has the best 1st half in the entire 3ds library but also the worst 2nd half in the whole 3ds library"
@@juanrodriguez9971 If you don't want a grindy experience in BD, don't go too heavy on magic. Did it to try and cheese my way around buying weapons and armor, and the resulting grind led to making buying gear a relative non-issue anyhow. Had to look up the dirty tricks/setups people use to get through the penultimate battle, both due to barely getting through it because magic, and working around a cheap mechanic.
6:38 final fantasy X did this well also. A great deal of the early fights are basically rock-paper-scissors.
Tidus is quick and nimble and can hit evasive wolves.
Wakka throws a blitzball and can hit fliers.
Lulu has magic that can hit elemental foes that are resistant to physical attacks.
Khimari and Auron have 'piercing' weapons that bypass heavy armoured foes.
Yuna summons aeons that are on par with some of the bigger monsters.
(rikku joins much later)
Later on these roles become more malleable as you can customize characters - but the beginning twsches you the rules and interactions and how the come into play for harder fights.
My only complaints with that system is it takes a bit too long to open up and the experience gain is restricted to only party members who take an action in a battle. So I end up getting every character a turn in every battle whether it makes sense or not for the sole purpose of them gaining experience.
I'm an RPG dev (well, currently), and these are the handful of principles I always, always stand by in my design:
-Variety and Brevity. Don't overuse design elements or make dungeons/battles longer than they need to be. Keep it fresh and fast-paced.
-Meaningful encounters. No filler baddies or grinding, each encounter should offer something unique.
-Meaningful TURNS. Every action matters. Focus on designing skills that aren't just "hit guy, do damage". Give skills/spells/items multiple purposes or synergy with other skills
-Skills over stats. Numbers are cool, I like numbers, but the effects of learning the mechanics to cleverly utilize skills and their synergies should trump level grinding any day.
I could go on, but, y'know. Variety and Brevity :)
i think you should add another thing.
MAKE ALMOST EVERY BATTLE CAN BE COMPLETED IN LV1 STATS EVEN BOSSES
I know this seems literally impossible but black souls 2 can somehow do it while making the bosses still hard on higher levels but it can be done.
"It doesn't matter if you win the game, just that you bought it" - Rosa, Vampire The Masquerade - Bloodlines.
One of the best and most underappreciated at launch RPGs. One can only imagine how different games would be now if Vampire hadn't been an unplayable buggy mess at launch.
I’ve been trying to tell my friends about Pokémon super cool underground game
It's crazy that more people haven't heard of it
yea, i heard it had a TV show or something that was pretty good too, but sadly faded into obscurity
Really don't understand why they put so little effort into marketing and promotion.
@@sentientfleshdoll it's a joke
@@sentientfleshdoll that’s the whole point everybody knows what it is
My main issues with the JRPGs I’ve played is the basic attack option, and the lack of anything outside of combat. Like, I like combat. But I need more than combat. Pokémon has collection, breeding systems, puzzles, etc. Xenoblade has affinity systems, heart to hearts, tons of secrets, and an engaging narrative.
someone should make an rpg where the god is killing teenagers instead.
The Sims, to a certain extent.
This man literally spent grenades on Geckos and then talked to us about how to improve RPGs
his example of a good version is stupid. the mario one where its literally 2 options meaning there are 2 paths to fighting. says the games lack verity in combat and his example of a good one is giving the least amount of options in a game.
@@jdogzerosilverblade299 I think the idea behind it was due to badges also changing up those 2 options (like throwing hammers at bats) and that you’re not just pressing X to attack but still having to pay attention to the fight to dodge/deal damage
@@Phoenixflara the reason why I like RPGs is because I have potato reflexes but apparently SAT scores say I'm the smartest person at my school with a 12 grade reading level at fourth grade so I'm using all my tactical knowledge instead of being like do the thing fast that's why I really can't play any Platformers because I always just don't have enough reflexes for me to do that
@@cringekid3993 Why are your reflexes so bad tho. Try playing pvp games and you'll develop em really fast
@@Walamonga1313 I shouldn't have to buy one game to play another
This is interesting advice, but I think there is some appeal in the low stakes grinding of RPGs that shouldn't be entirely done away with or it would also put some people off.
I know a lot of people like Darkest Dungeon, but I never got too far into it, because the pressure to maximally optimize every single action under the risk of losing my characters was just too anxiety inducing. I'd rather just trivially beat a few enemies and leave high stakes situations to boss battles.
Not everybody is looking for the same level of tension.
This is why I want to love XCOM 2. I love watching it, watching people do amazing under that sort of pressure; but unfortunately I am just bog awful at it. Once you get beyond the first couple missions, and into the real meat, I am not the kind of person that handles the every-encounter pressure very well. A fine game, more than fine; I just wish I was the type for it. I haven't picked up Darkest Dungeon precisely for that reason, like you said.
@@gms02 when I finished Xcom 2 without dlc on easy difficulty, I then started war of the chosen on normal To rise the heat little. Then everything went haywire in the war of the chosen introduction and every lvl 2 soldier is Hurt and unable To fight and I need To do my first region capture with lvl 1 soldiers and I'm fucking scared. I haven't touched the Game in half a year since then. Because you know, no region, no income. If I lose that battle I'm seriously fucked. I Wonder should I just start a new game.
@jocaguz18 Of course.
But if you mean to "fix" or improve them, you need to watch out so you don't alienate the people who already like it.
I know Darkest Dungeon is not for me, and I don't mean to force it to be. There are other RPGs which are for me, and I wouldn't appreciate if they are made to be more like Darkest Dungeon.
@jocaguz18 "No"
@jocaguz18 wtf? No, I'm not and how does a discussion even qualify for terms like "enemy" in your head? O.o
I love it when you get interrupted by a random encoun...
*You have encountered a hostile Ronan*
Easy fix, make it so there is a thing that you actually have to avoid, like in Deltarune where the monsters are roaming around and you have to avoid them, this adds a level of stealth to your game ( which would make some cool gear concepts ) and makes it less infuriating
You think you made a funny joke by stopping mid sentence as if a random encounter has just occ....
@@mr.preston1632 I also noticed this in dragon quest (two different ones so probably in most dragon quests).
An alternative which is probably easier to implement is simply disabling encounters, or changing encounter rates on the fly. This is done in bravely default, and is extremely useful as you can easily backtrack through a dungeon to find any items you might've missed, and increasing encounter rate to make grinding a lot faster.
Also, pretty much all turn based games should include a combat speed modifier.
I wonder if Candlejack is friends with the monsters in these random encoun...
“A Zelda boss with a big eye? Whatever will I do?!?!” That made me laugh a lot even though it was probably a pretty simple joke
You can't discuss RPG battle system if without mentioning the Tales series, which had a unique action combat ever since their first game in 1995 up till the newest release.
only played tales of the abyss, but loved it! Maybe I should pick another Tales of game up sometime
Exactly. And while combat is fun, story is the main appeal to a lot of tales fans, and the skits. The fact he said an RPG "doesn't need 40 hours of story" shows he's more an action gamer. Many RPG fans consider that a good thing. In fact a good portion of us are the same ones that play visual novels with no or little gameplay at all. That's like me playing fighting games and complaining it's not enough story and making a video on why I can't finish fighters.
@@jupita551 Just stay away from Tales of Zestiria, a lot of people found the combat boring in that one.
@@jupita551 Only played Berseria myself but its fun
The same with Star Ocean series
My favorite combat system, is Dragons Dogma. It has 9 classes, and each one has a different style of fighting. I have over 300 hours in the game, across PS3, PS4, and PC, and if I ever get bored of fighting in a particular style, I can just switch classes and it feels like a new game
Best game ever.
This is the first video of yours I have come across, and I am impressed. Thank you for your time and passion in creating something for us to enjoy and think about. :D
This topic is exactly why I adore Radiant Historia's and Megaman .EXE's battle grid systems. Having crowds of enemies with varying locations on a 3x3, moves that can reposition them, and moves that deal high damage but only to specific spots means at barely minimum you're always thinking spatially to perform efficient and satisfying strikes
I noticed that a lot of the footage was from early on in the games and genuinely thought it was to avoid spoilers. Good work
You know, I feel like more RPGs should have you doing more than just fighting to progress things, while having those other systems be as in-depth as a good combat system.
For example, immersive sims tend to have stealth as a viable option, with the Thief series in particular having a strong degree of depth to it with factors of visibility and audibility, where you have to take into account how bright/dark the area is, how loud the surfaces you tread on are, how fast you move, whether you're crouched or standing, etc. Another example is how Deus Ex has a lot of systems that allow you to avoid certain encounters, like picking locks, manipulating electronic devices, hacking into computers, etc.
Personally, I'd like to see a JRPG that integrates more technical elements, where party members do more than just fight, and depending on the current objective you actually need to think about who you want to come with. In a quest where a deeper understanding of the spirit world is important, you may want a shaman in your party, whereas a mission that revolves more around computers necessitates bringing the decker along for the ride. Basically I want a Shadowrun game that plays like an imsim except you have a full party.
This here. The genre is called Roleplaying Games after all.
@@Duchess_Van_Hoof Indeed. Roles should be more than tanking, healing and DPS. They should involve physical and technical skills as well. Using one's strength to lift what others can't lift, using one's diminutive size to fit through gaps that others can't squeeze through, using one's understanding of elemental interactions to make a raft of thick ice in order to cross a lake, using one's deft fingers to tease open locks and safely disarm traps, etc.
That way, you're doing a lot more than just fighting, and as previously mentioned, you need to make more in-depth decisions regarding whose skill-sets are needed for a given mission.
This is why I play an Apothecary, an NPC class in Morrowind despite it being suboptimal. Far more immersive and interesting, and creates a different set of priorities. Why crawl through hostile tombs when I can explore the wilderness and collect ingredients? New Vegas came pretty close as well, in how many skills and special stats checks there are within the dialogue system and outside of it, Speech is even considered to be overpowered by many as a result on the heavy focus on dialogue and skill checks.
It is something I do appreciate about 5E D&D. The Backgrounds, the updated feats and the new balance lessens the focus on combat, and one could run an entire adventure with minimal battles. 3.X ended up being devolved into a focus on who could deal the most damage, be the most invincible or glitch the system the most. I have given up on playing Pathfinder with my RP group due to the extreme focus on combat.
While on the subject of tabletop RPGs, Dark Heresy is arguably the most immersive game I ever played. The gritty level of detail, the lethality and such things certainly help. The design of the adventures however is what matters, you are dropped into a small open world with an objective and a hint or two, start investigating. The frequency of extreme danger keeps the players from just killing everything in their path, and the limited skills force them to cooperate to succeed.
@@Duchess_Van_Hoof Your problem with pathfinder is as much the group as it is the system. Pathfinder 1e is no more combat focused than DnD 3.x. Pathfinder 2e is no more combat focused than DnD 5e. That said, there are plenty of games out there that aren't combat focused at all. Fate handles all encounters the same way, it's up to the group to decide on what kind to focus. Ryuutama cares so little about combat that there's more detailed mechanics around "waking up on the wrong side of the bed" than there is for fighting.
What's a decker?
What makes a great TV show is how it draws a viewer into the overarching story, the characters background / growth / reactions, the day to day situations, etc.
What makes a great schematic movie is how it draws a viewer into the visuals / camera angles, the steep plot angles, either the climatic happy ending or the suspenseful twist cliffhanger.
What makes a great role play is how it draws a participant into their own imagination, and the ability to let them act it out in a way that's both natural and believable to them.
What makes a great video game is how it draws a participant into feeling like they are active in something with a purpose, that they are progressing towards a desired outcome.
What makes a bad experience is how it allows something to be missing, that should be there, that may or may not be easily tangible / explainable but is instinctively absent.
What makes a great RPG is it's defining characteristics, the character power / player skill always meaningfully going up, the plot not being deadpan or far too abstract to recognize.
When people get bored of RPGs, it tends to be because the leveling experience tapers off into pointlessness ( no new meaningful skills, stats aren't impressive anymore, items / resources are redundant, etc. ) As with most video games, developers place way too much effort into the first 10 minutes of the game starting ...and then fill the rest of it with busy work. When a character learns their first healing spell, it changes everything. When they learn their first attack that hits multiple enemies, everything changes. When they learn of a great xp / currency farm spot, everything changes. When everything stops being meaningful ....it's pointless, and you've just lost a defining characteristic of the game / genre. The same goes for horrible storytelling, nonsensical/ greedy gating of content, or just sheer tedium, but that is true of all mediums in their respective ways.
A game like FF7 "works" because at no point does any defining part of the game taper off or stop being meaningful. You always find / need to level new materia. You always need to work on your limit breaks. There's always a side story for a character that is both engaging / interesting as well as unlocking a key item / skill for them. You got new interesting characters to join your party. At the time cinematics were unheard of in video games, and FF7's were monumentally epic ....so you played to experience the next one. Everything was on your terms, but there was everything to do.
In a more generically designed game, your character probably stops getting new unlocks, or they severely get spread out, after a 1/4th of the way through. At which point getting xp is just to meet gear requirements to make sure you aren't spending 20+ minutes on a boss or not being able to do it at all. This means the other generic elements of the RPG have to make up for it's shortcoming, which It wont be able to do. And even if it can, the heavy reliance on the combat / leveling experience that is central to RPGs means the player has to slog through a horribly un-enjoyabl / redundant part of the game to get to the enjoyable ones. This is where people start hating all the random enemy encounters in JRPGs ...because it's tedium in an already redundant part of the game that you don't want to, or don't feel compelled to, participate in. A game can have a really simple combat system and still be hugely enjoyable ( take a lot of flash games / cliche JRPG combat systems ) so long as the driving factor for that combat stays intact.
Id argue that the reason we were able to play hours and hours of older RPGs is because it was all we knew / had at the time. With growing up / having access to a larger library of comparable titles the allure of the genre fades, as it hasn't evolved at all as a whole in the last 10 years, let alone the last 30 for subgenres like JRPGs. I could do any Final Fantasy from the 90s easily to completion multiple times, at the time; but there's no way I can do that again today, nostalgia alone wont keep me going for 80 hours to beat one of those games. At some point movies / tv shows / video games become a "one and done" experience, because there's no real draw into experiencing that again, and there's too much that keeps you wanting to. An RPG, much like any story, has to be able to stand on it's own merit. To be "just another RPG" means that once you feel like you've gone past the "honeymoon phase" ....it just feels like the same thing you did before in another game; it doesn't make sense to keep going to the end. Like mentioned in the video, those more "generic" or uninspiring / engaging RPGs would have done better for themselves to be a 10-20 hour experience, rather than trying to give you 80 hours of stretched out "moneys worth". It just leads to a lot of unfinished games.
A mediocre 20 hour game for $20 could be an interesting talking point in a conversation with friends. The same mediocre game stretched to 60 hours for $60 will almost always be interrupted with "omg I was so bored, not worth the money." "Get it on a deep discount." . A game that tries to be more than it is will always fail; as will one that doesn't even know what it is.
I know this is a two year old comment but respect to this comment.
I loved the rpg mode in solcalibur on PS2! It was great and it used the fight mechanics from the main game. It was actually amazing, I miss it now.
Yup, I was super pissed they dropped it in the newer games.
I like how Adam Millard has been getting progressively hornier in each video.
Adam Weinberg lmfao
A lot of your examples I think, have less to do with being able to make the fights themselves interesting, and more to do with being able to choose when to fight, something older RPGs didn't usually allow. The Paper Mario games have it so random enemies can be killed in the open world, to avoid fighting them, Final Fantasy XV, up until the halfway point, usually had open maps, where you could get around most enemies, and, as you noted, Chrono Trigger just straight had fewer fights.
I would like to plug an older game, Breath of Fire I(For the SNES) as from the start, you could control the encounter rate, with an item bought for less than 10 gold from almost every item shop in the game. This item would eliminate all random fights, allowing you to only do boss battles, though you'd need to level up for those if you wanted to win(GREMLIN!!!), you could then equip certain armors to increase the encounter rate(16X normal actually), to power grind just before bosses you couldn't win against. It was an epic system, and one that I quite enjoy even to this day.
This is actually in the literal first JRPG of all time (and every subsequent game in that series): Dragon Quest. Holy Water/Holy Protection (item/spell). The wrinkle is that it only removes "weaker" encounters based on your level, so it's not as clear cut as "skip every single enemy"". For example it might be removing encounters in the overworld and then you get an encounter inside the dungeon, cause you haven't "outlevelled" those yet.
The "grinding tool" is incredibly straightforward though: games from DQ4 onwards have had "whistle", a spell that literally just causes a random encounter (from the area you're in) to happen then and there
Two things I especially appreciate about systems like this over, say, Oblivion's hamfisted enemy scaling, is 1. areas feel distinct cause they have their own unique monster pools, and 2. you're never locked out of going back and fighting a particular monster. If you want an item that a certain enemy drops, or you need to kill it to fill out your bestiary, or you just wanna power trip with your much stronger party, you can. OR you can avoid all the "trash mobs".
I like random encounters and the "war of attrition" aspect of being smart about your resources so you're not spent before reaching a boss, but having these "toggles of control" over it helps steer it more towards interesting and less towards just tiring.
Having less of something inherently makes it more interesting. If you had 1/4 of the encounters in older FF games, it wouldn't be so annoying to fall into them.
@@metallsnubben I know those systems, but like you note, Holy Water only works on things under your level, and of course, the farther you go in the game, the longer it takes to outlevel them. I think BoF's item is superior by both being usable for all encounters, and being a bit more limited in supply(Limited inventory spaces ,and only 9 per space for the item, amongst other ones you have to give them).
As to Whistle, I do remember that, but I'll admit, I prefer a constant buff, over having to go back into the menu every single time to start a new fight. Though I will agree, the later dungeons feel too easy, as the bosses tend to be balanced around a party that has had to go through a gauntlet to get to them. As Drzz'l said in 8 Bit Theater, 'We fight the heroes when they have been sundered and beaten, striped of their will to fight and their supplies by our guards and minions...to be fair, it's a comedy webcomic, so it was part of a gag, but it still works.
There is also Wild Arms 5's approach. There's an encounter control in each area(And the world map), you can eventually get to to turn them on or off at your leisure. Given the dungeon reuse in the game(Done very well IMO as the plot had more things to do) putting those near the end of a dungeon on the first run, allowed you to control if you wanted to fight things again on later runs.
That said, full agreement. Scaling tends to suck all the fun out of things. If I'm winning, let me win, don't suddenly make the game way harder just to make it harder. If you're going to do that, just give me a difficulty slider then.(Which Oblivion did)
@@kaldo_kaldo Slightly agreed, slightly disagreed. BoF1 is a good example here as well. The game, when rereleased on the GBA, did exactly that, while doubling the EXP gain, and tripling money gain. While some say it alleviated the grind, it also left some with a bad impression of bosses. Most especially those with long/puzzle type dungeons, designed to hit you with lots of encounters, meaning the bosses were scaled to you being slightly weaker than you would be in the portable version. It made it go by faster, to be sure, however, and there is some merit in that. Again, control is what I'd ask for.
The world ends with you has no random encounters, you can run at any time, the combat is action based and you can choose when, who why and where you fight.
7:59 I let out an exasperated sigh from pure habit.
Ive always thought adding a Defense turn in the turn based system would be interesting. With a equal amount of defensive moves magic or skills that mirror offense moves. Adding a new strategy level to the combat
This is actually very interesting!
A "Default" Guard could give some MP back, a 'Elemental' Guard would lessen elemental damage, Evasion could avoid all damage if works, Taunt Guard would attract attacks to the user, and Preparation could not give any defensive bonus, but it would boost the ATK of the user on the next turn(paired with a ally with Taunt it would do wonders).
Now I want to go back to RPG Maker to try to make this lol
@@ElBarto-ft1qe Add a defensive "reflect" and/or "mirror" that boosts defense and returns ~50% of the damage back to the attacking enemy.
1:45 I hear it got a LOT better after some of the main patchs. But as someone that played FF15 shortly after release... GOOD LORD, i thought i was at a dentist appointment
yeah ive been meanin to go back to it with the new stuff but the grindy early game kind of turns me away
It did, but the early game still plays like an MMO. If you like that like I do, then have fun. There are an awful lot of fetch quests and that turned some people off.
I played the patched version (something something Kings?). Anyway, also found it very boring. Before that, the only FF game I'd played was FF12, and that was loads of fun. I was interested in the combat, the story, and the characters. With FF15 I was just waiting for something to grab my interest and after about 15 hours (maybe less) I had to give up on it.
"I thought i was at a dentist appointment" lmao what a thing to say
I don't mean to sound like an elitist, but I feel like the core of the problem is that players want lot of different things from RPG's. A numbers heavy RPG with challenging and nuanced combat mechanics will be intrinsically more punishing than a similarly challenging action game, and I feel like a some of players (i.e those that mainly want to progress in the story and learn more about the world and characters) react poorly to mechanics and limitations that are necessary to balance gameplay. I think one such example is random encounters. Say what you will about them being annoying interruptions, but they have several effective uses for gamefeel and optimization.
For example, take random encounters and more specifically how they interact with world layout. Traversing the overworld and even completing dungeons in most modern RPG's often feels inconsequential to me. A lot of the time I feel like the only challenging parts of the game are some of the bosses and maybe an end-game super dungeon. I can't speak for everyone, but this is part of the reason I find many newer RPGs unengaging. In older games with random encounters traversal and resource management seems more like it's the core of the gameplay. Of course this doesn't appeal to everyone, but I've always found the loop of exploring the world or a dungeon and returning to a town to regroup and save engaging. A lot of games without random encounters need to railroad the player with hard locks and scripted encounters. I think Chrono Trigger is a good example of this. The first several hours are very linear, and throughout the game there are several highly optimal strategies for bosses and enemy encounters. For the record, I do enjoy Chrono Trigger, but I feel like I spend the first 30 or so hours going precisely were and doing exactly what the game wants. Most of the replayability comes from trying out different dual techs and making different choices in story segments. The fact that it doesn't have random encounters doesn't make me enjoy the battle system or traversal more, If anything it just makes it easier to get to the other enjoyable parts of the game.
Games without random encounters also tend to feel pretty imbalanced. Personally, I enjoy fighting a lot of battles as I go, so I can experiment with different party comps and characters builds. As a result, I rarely feel like I have to grind for bosses in most games. But without random encounters some players will intentionally avoid battles and risk being under leveled. A good example of this would be DQ11. With the exception of a handful of mobs that can spawn on the ocean, most early enemies and even several early bosses can be beaten at relatively low levels, with straight forward strategies, and often on your first try. I remember video game dunkeys review of the game were he complained about having to grind for the Tentacular fight. I feel like DQ11 is far to lenient in the early game. If some of the earlier dungeons or overworld segments featured tougher encounters that were harder to avoid, the wake up call bosses wouldn't feel like as much of a difficulty spike. I didn't even know characters could be switched out mid-battle until the tentacular fight, in part because I didn't have to. In this case the lack of random encounters creates perverse incentives and can leave players inadequately prepared for the parts of the game that are actually challenging.
But in the end this is largely my personal preference. I can see why people find older games frustrating and obtuse, I just wish more of them would understand why so many players still enjoy these kinds of games. I don't appreciate how a lot of older games and their mechanics are dismissed as archaic by people who haven't even finished them. If you can't find it in you to finish a game it might just mean the game isn't for you, not necessarily that it's poorly designed or conceptually flawed.
I definitely agree, although i would say that something that makes the game flow feel a little better for me is when you are easily able to see when the random encounters come, a good example being SMT IV on the 3ds. I played SMT III : Nocturne beforehand, and there were times where i was just backtracking because i made a mistake in the mazelike dungeon (and couldnt figure it out for the life of me) the random encounters coming on screen with no beforehand indication (other than a flashing red indication in the corner that still doesn't help all that much) led to me getting legitimately angry at the game due to it making the flow feel out of wack and unpreventable, like i was forced into this for no reason other than the game needing me to fight enemies. This problem was fixed in SMT IV, where they have a very similar encounter rate, except you can interact with a nondescript model of the enemy a few seconds before hand, they can be very hard to evade, and not attacking them first leads to you taking hits you really dont want (level 1 enemies still deal substantial damage for a good while in the game), I was no longer frustrated when i was going through dungeons or backtracking due to the fact that it was my fault i didnt evade the encounter, and i could see it coming (even if im in a situation where i cant evade). The game made it feel like there was a whole lot less randomness to it and the flow felt a good bit less interupted (along side the fact that battles go by really fast).
random encounters arent the problem. Its just that they often appear in the overworld and not just dungeons.
@@AmantePatata Im fine if they appear in the overworld if it suits the games atmosphere and narrative
@@AmantePatata I think it depends on the game, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily a bad thing. If you look at the original Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, and Phantasy Star games they'd arguably be worse off without overworld encounters due to the fact that they lacked content.
Bit of an aside: Is it worth sticking with DQ11? I made it to that bathhouse, and so far the combat has been an absolute snore fest.
What's worse, looking at what abilities I have and which unlockable abilities are on that hex grid, I don't see it getting more fun even if it becomes harder later. The straight damage buffs seem the most useful but don't add anything interesting. The special moves seem worthless, as an MP consuming boomerang attack that is supposed to be good against oozes barely did more damage to oozes than a regular attack, so why bother?
I tried Octopath Traveler for comparison, to see if I just grew out of JRPGs, and that game's combat started out fun, and with a clear idea of how your expanding Toolkit could be used to make things more interesting. DQ11 starts boring and nothing the game shows me promises improvement.Am I wrong and did I stop just before it got good?
A pretty great video. Interesting to frame it back into D&D, where many of these systems began. Personally I hate how slow D&D combat is, but I would argue that it is easy to make it interesting, there is a lot of choice and situations where basic attacking isn't optimal.
Here I go into the depths of watching videos like this in preparation of making my own turn based rpg. I still don’t have a good combat idea to make it different and unique enough I’ve been brainstorming for a week or two and I’ve had a couple ideas but none good enough... yet
A couple ideas to possibly inspire you - take a look at D.R.O.D. In Deadly Rooms of Death, you play on a typical grid map with 8 directional movement. However, you don't just attack in any direction on any turn. Instead, you are armed with a sword that's in an adjacent square. You can either move in one of the 8 directions OR rotate your sword 45 degrees. This results in a lot of weird and interesting tactics.
Another idea which is harder to get into ... In the classic roguelike Moria, there are a significant number of invisible enemies, and for a very long time you won't be able to get an item that allows you to see invisible creatures unless you're VERY lucky. You can usually find a staff that lets you detect invisible enemies, or if you're a cleric/paladin you'll eventually get a spell to detect evil (most of the more dangerous invisible monsters are also evil)... but these are limited and they only tell you the location of the enemy on this turn - NOT the next turn. Add in the fact that you can only used ranged attacks along the 8 cardinal directions, so you probably aren't even in a position to attack the enemy? IT IS TOUGH.
But fighting or even just trying to flee invisible enemies is one of the things that makes Moria interesting and different. (In most respects, Moria is not very distinctive; it's only modestly different from Rogue, and it's one of the three big classic roguelikes that inspired the rest - the other two being Rogue and Nethack.) Fighting invisible enemies is just fiendishly difficult and challenging. There's more or less no effective way to fight them, you just sort of get better at mitigating the damage. Oh yeah - the invisible enemies at deeper levels tend to damage you in ways that REALLY hurt, like draining stats, making you forget spells by draining levels, and such ... even if you quickly put on a Ring of Sustain Strength after the first attack, it still really hurts and it especially sucks if the drain means you can no longer effectively wield your best weapon.
Things get even nastier when you run up against an invisible monster while you're travelling down one of the ubiquitous narrow corridors. Most invisible monsters can travel through walls; you can't. It can attack you repeatedly from inside a wall, where it's invulnerable to all of your spells and wands, even if you can guess the correct direction to attack back in. So, you have to try and flee to an open room, where you can at least stand a chance, and you can try and use area effect spells/items to increase your chances of getting in a hit.
So, you could have invisible enemies, or you could capture some of the same sort of excitement by making it so that your attacks have a delayed effect ... you see the locations of the enemy in the current turn, but they may move before your attack. You have to guess the location they will be in the next turn.
Actions
Slimes (an iconic RPG enemy)
Systems (outside combat)
You're welcome.
What do you mean by actions
I Know this is a two year old comment and might not reply but I don't understand this comment
@@johnniefinney3266 It's a joke about his joke about the acronym he structured the video around.
He joked about trying to make the acronym spell either RPG or ASS, instead of TEL, so this was my best effort at it.
@@Dmobley9901 ah thanks
@@johnniefinney3266 No problem.
I was always fascinated by the difference in approach that Japanese and Western Devs took to RPG's
"How to make combat more interesting" -> "Add layers that aren't combat!"
What is needed is interaction (No spamming R1 where you slash straight through a meatsponge), commitment to moves (weapon weight, after a certain point no more animation canceling and endurance mechanics)... such things.
PvP Games have this inherent advantage of player interaction creating unique situations, PvE games think they can't keep up and replace it all with level progression and then fall victim to becoming grindy. What you need is fun AI like in Sekiro or Surge.
great vid, also great to hear Noah get a call out I love his stuff.
i've got no problem with the general rpg combat system (it's even part of why i prefer rpgs to other kinds of games) but i do think your analysis is pretty interesting.
Can I ask, are you talking about turn based RPG's?
@@NOF4C3 yeah. probably should've specified that's what i meant by "general rpg combat system" lol. i know there are lots of rpgs that aren't turn-based, but i definitely prefer the ones that are.
Disco Elysium changed how I see RPGs forever. Genuine masterpiece that really showed how important amazing dialogue, mystery, and exploration really is.
What makes it an rpg? That just sounds like an adventure game.
@@Theyungcity23 Did you not play the role of Harry as you progress? He really is quite a blank slate for much of the game and allows you to project your ideas and beliefs onto him through the skills and the thought cabinet, plus the various choices you make throughout the game. Your morality and your playing the role shapes how the story comes together and what beliefs Harry has. If that isn't role playing I'm not sure what is.
@@Amascut That sounds like an adventure game. Not a roleplaying game. Those are different genres. What's the difference between an adventure game and an RPG for you?
@@Theyungcity23 An adventure game is a very pigeonholed story that travels down a specific path without a ton of room for branching, and tells the story of an already characterized character. You don't really get to project upon them. An RPG is a game where you roleplay as the character and make major choices for both them as a character and how they develop. Disco Elysium is the second.
@@Amascut Adventure games can have branching paths. They add a branching paths to Leisure Suit Larry and all of sudden it's in the same genre as Golden Sun or Divinity 2? The rpg genre is already used to refer to a very specific type of gameplay. You can't just use a very literal interpretation of the term Rpg and erase what people actually mean when they use it. You can't say that and adventure game is any game where you go on an adventure. You can't say that a first person shooter only refers to a game in which you shoot the first person you see.
For me, an RPG needs to have a good sense of progression where I can use what they give me in a decently fulfilling way. Having good endgame and postgame content that lets me use the gameplay system above what the base games gives you makes pretty much any RPG fine to play through and complete fully. The story and its characters helps a lot but i never had any instances where the story itself annoyed me enough to quit or found gameplay boring enough for me to not continue. Although, I am the type of player who will see a game through to the end once i actually start get decently far enough into it.
5:58 My heart goes out to everyone who knows the pain of that quest.
I just gave up.
Yea I didn’t even bother trying to save him lol I found a lot of quests in that game aren’t that well executed tbh
I've read the thumbnail "Why I can't FISH in RPGs" and I was like "sure, some let you fish, yes"
Fine if there fish models and not only a pop-in text saying "have catch up a tuna"
Something like Animal Crossing and Nier Automata.
Breath of Fire IV fishing is superb.
I've been playing Atelier Sophie recently and it has an interesting relationship with combat. The bulk of the game revolves around collecting resources in the field to craft them into items back at the hub. Early on combat is something to be avoided as most of what you can actually defeat doesn't reward you with anything worthwhile (other than exp) you are locked into having the protagonist in your active party and she can only do anything meaningful by using the handful of potions and bombs you've so painstakingly crafted.
The relationship the player and both crafting and combat changes when you unlock automatic refills on equipped items. Crafting consumables stops being limited by resources, letting you focus on their effectiveness and usage count before you run out for that expedition. Combat becomes less costly, so you can safely get into scraps knowing your precious items won't be used up for good. Between this and the rewarding subjugation requests, you'll find yourself seeking out your targets above all else in an area.
The relationship with combat evolves again once your characters hit the level cap of 20. Experience from that point on nets you skill points with which you can buy stat upgrades and skills. This makes weaker enemies all but worthless - unless they drop good loot or a lot of money - and combined with access to even better item traits, you'll find yourself easily taking on a dozen encounters in an expedition that would have completely drained your resources previously.
And had you chosen literally ANY other Atelier title, you would've seen an even better combat system. Play Shallie and you'll never want the "Attack/Defend" option back. The atrociously slow implementation of battle with nearly unattainable limit breaks and the percentage-based alchemy system have been done way better in prequels and sequels alike. Trust me, I played a few ;)
Sophie is the most underrated mainline atelier for sure.
It just had a good balance in everything while somehow maintaining player focus all the way throughout the true ending(there's like, 3 credit rolls iirc?)
I picked Sophie for two reasons
1. While looking into reviews of the various titles, it was most recommended as the best introduction to the series
2. It was the cheapest one I found on the Steam store
@@crisiscore341 would you include firis among those? Cause i dunno... I actually preferred Sophie's system.
Like firis wasnt bad per se, but when it comes down to personal preference, i just liked sophie more.(though other parts of firis i just outright disliked)
@@iota-09 Firis' alchemy system was grindy AF and I hated it. My favorite in the trilogy is Lydie & Suelle since it has a simpler, more accessible alchemy system that lets you make good items easily.
The new games have nothing on the Dusk trilogy and its predecessors, though. Shallie's combat system is action-packed with lots of buffs and follow-ups, and while the alchemy is not my favorite in that title, making some overpowered, sharp-teethed trash cans or beast-summoning talismans is not that tough.
I dunno why Sophie is so well-regarded. The battle system absolutely killed it for me, and I never got the hang of the more mathematical alchemy system. The protagonist Sophie also got elevated to new heights for absolutely no reason, while the old games had Keith the veteran who had done and seen some shit. I mean, look at their life paths: Firis obviously has talent and becomes a licensed alchemist in a YEAR while Sophie just gets stuff done by being told what to do. Then she returns as some ultra powerful figure in the third installment and i just lost my shit.
Sorry for the rant, but I played the old and the new titles and I can say with certainty that Sophie is an okay game in itself, but one of the lower points of the Atelier series.
I honestly love Disgaea but I’ve played since number 1 so I sometimes forget that it can be daunting but now I know why I never get bored playing it
I might be a bit late on this, but I can relate to this so hard. I'm just on a 2 week holiday at the moment and decided to focus on finishing as many games as I can. After a game reaches the 50-60 hour mark, it often gets to a turning point for me. I can enjoy it very much up to that point, but as I don't have that much time to play, I'm often not sure if it's worth my time continuing. Say on average I have 10 hours to play in a week, it would take me almost a full 2 months to finish these bigger games.
I won't ramble for too long, but I also think about this issue a lot. Great video!
I think changing the mechanics at the mid and end sections is important in RPGs, and most combat-oriented games in general. Doing the same 4-5 moves every combat encounter gets boring after 20-30 hours of gameplay. Changing the abilities of enemies (not just making them bigger damage sponges) forces players to rethink their approach to combat, which drastically improves gameplay.
i would be really dissapointed if games were shorter, i really enjoy games i can sink into the worlds and appreciate them, as long as there isnt too much filler i cant get enough
The combat system in kingdoms of amular is amazing, you should give it a go if you get the chance
Was getting sick of my usual yt recomendation. Then this guy comes along and gives me food for thout. Chad.
“Sexy lady cloud from ff7, and if I’m being honest, sexy boy cloud as well”. Absolute bicon.
He have Immortal Greek blood, that is for sure
(It's a Glory of Heracles 3 reference)
I always love when people talk about divinity
yeah it does, but did he really have to give a PTSD attack with talking about the black pits?
Kees Wuister Yea that place is a bad one
Radiant Historia has a very interesting combat system. You have a team of 3, 2 of whom you can switch out depending on the point of the story and what allies you have with you, and combat focuses on the enemies being manipulatable on a 3x3 grid. Some of your attacks and move enemies around or hit multiple squares so you have to think about how you can manipulate the field to knock a number of enemies into the same square to maximize your damage. Some enemies cannot be moved or other big bosses take up all the squares so no way to manipulate their position. Leveling up improves your stats but also has your team learn new abilities (plus passive skills in Perfect Chronology), as well as doing certain side quests nets further skills too or even affecting the ending
"...while some keep sitting on teh bench forever"
looking at you, mrs. pegasus knight
The bench is where I get my best ideas...
9:41 this also leads to some games having a "win everytime" strategy that 's just better than anything else, thus discouraging the player from interacting with other combat elements. Many times once you get an op enough combat strategy, a lot of skills, items, techniques and whatever are just left aside because using them would mean a slower or less rewarding combat.
This may also apply to various alternatives to combat in games not giving the same kind of rewards, like going for a stealth route resulting in less xp and items.
Nah. A lot of the problem is because most bosses are immune to almost everything, have way too much hp and deal way too much damage. Since players know this they have to optimize based on boss fights which means avoiding almost everything that would otherwise be interesting.
@@GeorgeMonet That's also true. You realize when a game has good boss design when it can be beaten in various ways depending on what you're building
Excuse me, Super Mario RPG: Legend of the 7 Stars would like a word about this "only two Mario RPG" business.
However, it absolutely falls victim to one of the first gripes he covered: each character has a "standard attack" that is equally effective in basically every battle throughout the entire game.
@@Stratelier Each character having a standard attack isn't a failure. The failure most RPGs fall into is having too much combat and putting too much focus on meaningless empty pointless combat mechanics which force players to make decision around min/maxing instead of roleplay.
Also Super Mario RPG is the only good one. I played the Paper Mario games and I just did not like them at all. They were absolutely a step backwards.
@@GeorgeMonet True the mere existence of a "standard attack" isn't a failure _in and of itself_ -- but again, having a basic attack that is near-equallly effective against all opponents _does_ tend to monotonize the combat system faster.
@Sidney J. Duffy paper mario is NOT a spiritual successor to Mario RPG. It tries to capture that original magic but will never be able to without square backing it. GENO your my boy!!!
@Strigorvious Dregorous Incentivized? I don't remember getting that impression much (though it has been a long time since I've actually played Mario RPG).
What makes me mad about dragon quest specifically is that bosses get sometimes like 4 attacks in a row
And the universal "no buffs" move, there goes 5 turns setting up a cool ability down the drain
One of my favorite battle systems of all time came from an old mobile rpg from 2013 called "Life is Magic" by Red Robot Labs.
It's turn based combat system had an integrated resource management system where through use of basic attacks, special attacks, and other actions could be used to generate, use up, or exchange various types of energy to be used to perform special attacks, inflict status conditions, or chain together multi-hit combos.
My favorite character/class was this rad turtle monk that used a staff and after taking a turn or two to set up, could chain together sweet combos and unleashing a flurry of attacks constantly generating and exchanging various energy types to continue your onslaught or set up for your next turn.
It's been gone for a long time now, but I loved that game and still miss it a lot.
9:22 as someone who just finished indivisible, thats a hard no for pretty much 2/3rds of the game. it does kinda start out like that but as soon as you start getting technical characters like Nuna you can focus canceling enemy attacks, work on set up turns and guard breaking wastes a lot of your turn economy so you need to get a lot more efficient ways of breaking guard and decide if you are going to use iddih or not to get those guard breaks (which is important when you get 3 or more enemies that can guard at the same time starts to matter a lot as killing them one at a time is dangerous and takes forever). eventually i got such an ungodly blitzkrieg-y team that i did 90% of most mini bosses hp in the first round with the unfortunate drawback of losing at least one character if i didnt block well upon the next attack... which considering the nature of the final boss was probably for the best.
also: energy iddih heals some enemies (as does razmis fire attacks) as well as juggling and some enemies are even weak to AoE effects, so indivisible was a poor example
also i found the difference of damage (especially on widely built characters) in terms of damage type in the outer wilds was more or less negligible except in the most extreme circumstances, and since even when spec'd into carry weight its hard (and expensive) to either carry multiple instances of your best gun or constantly change out energy type mods where finding out how to exploit a creatures behavioral or attack tactics or weakness points was a far better time investment than making sure you had the right energy type in outer wilds (which was more of just a bonus than a requirement)
My take if I make a turn based rpg(and I very well may):
Just copy the entirety of Nocturne. It does rpg combat so well. Buffs and debuffs are essential, good players don't need to grind, enemy variety is huge, so many moves and skills, magatama is genius, and much more!
Having played Atelier Ryza 1 & 2 and Xenoblade Chronicles 1 & 2 since I first watched this video, I realize that I what I love/need in combat system is a way to build a momentum during a single combat.
Starting with low damage and few possibilities at the start of the encounter and having more and more possibilities and damage power as the combat goes.
It makes me love hard and long fight cause they give me more opportunities to use powerful moves that I couldn’t use in random encounters.
It’s also a way to keep those random encounter challenging by keeping you from swiping every enemies with the same single powerful move at the start of each fight.
I think the cult classic SNES RPG Live-A-Live gets around these problems by being split into episodes. In each episode you have a new set of playable characters with their own abilities and rules. That mixes very well with the proto action RPG style it goes for and it never gets boring. It also helps that the story gets more and more interesting the further you get as you slowly figure out how these separate episodes are connected.
I feel like DOS2 has the best turn based combat system, even though that the leveling system is out of wack.
I feel like Persona 5 does...but I’ve barely played any of it...
DOS2 has one of the best combat systems ever made and easily the best turn-based combat system.
@coffee: the account There's mods that address this! You should take a look at em :o
@coffee: the account yeah I got bored even 20 hours in really. It just ends up being the same thing over and over and all of the elemental stuff or high ground stuff people adore and shout to the heavens are nothing but gimmicks that get old quick. Once you see beneath the hood so to speak it quickly becomes disillusioning even if at first it has that feeling of wow, I can do almost anything! It's the exact same as real dnd in that regard.
@coffee: the account Ironically, I have completely stopped using gear as a defensive option, and rather just look at raw offensive stats. Enemies will break through your armor in 3 attacks, no matter if it is 300 or 3000, so just might as well make sure I can get through theirs just as quickly.
10:42 lol the most fun I had when I played Bravely Default was when I was setting up equipment, cool job combinations, and neat abilities to deal 9,999 damage each turn. Fun stuff, but I can definitely see how that could get more annoying in games with less in-depth job/ability systems.
(...also if you are curious, it didn’t take long for me to discover phoenix flight + minus strike and stillness + hasten world. Once I got those I mainly just messed around with different combos since those moves are pretty overpowered)
How about a video about the games that have your favorite combat?
"Spending more time on menus than in combat is never a good thing." I dunno, man, I had a LOT of fun planning out good loadouts in FF7, and...
"FF7 remake is a much needed change to make combat less of a slog..." I'm not convinced you played the same FF7R I did. Clearly, we have very different gaming experiences here.
It is a difference of opinion. You both played the same game, but some people are math nerds and others aren't as patient for it.
Hell, I had both PoV's: growing up, just squeezing in game time at the end of a school day and also learning to deal with ADD, I had 0 patience for the math and menus, sharing a point of view as seen here.
Getting older and with more patience, and time just living in my head, I like the numbers game a bit more and will experiment with builds and playstyles as much as I can, though this often requires a more casual game to really take advantage of this playground in the menus.
@@YourCrazyDolphin Pretty much this (albeit with opposite preference). I enjoyed both the original and the remake. When I was younger, I enjoyed the theorycrafting and the planning and number crunching, it felt rewarding when it all worked out, and if I had to grind against enemies for hours to get the exact thing I needed, that was fine. But now I'm older and have other responsibilities, I feel like I don't really have as much time or patience for that sort of thing (well, I do now due to COVID, but ordinarily I wouldn't lol), so the Remake IS more my current speed and preferred combat system. Plus, the internet pretty much having figured out the optimal way to do everything already these days, and will have pretty much nailed it for anything new within 24 hours of it's release, which makes the number-crunching approach to gameplay feel far less rewarding and special these days.
I mean you COULD try to ignore the internet I suppose, but we're all naturally inclined to take the path of least resistance if it still get's us to the exact same place we want to be.
Optimizing my loadout and party setup to let me beat the Midgar Zolom right after leaving Midgar and getting the Beta enemy skill is one of my favorite things in FF7.
Incidentally my favorite way of doing so is having the entire party in backrow, Barret (high base health) with Elemental Materia tied to Fire as well the Enemy Skill Materia, someone with poison materia and one with cure materia. Minimal casting materia overall to maximize health.
Poison the Midgar Zolom and then just wait for the poison to tick down its health, healing and curing poison as necesary. Poison ticks wont trigger the Beta cast, so once it reaches about 1/3 health I auto-attack it and it responds with Beta. Barret should survive thanks to the Elemental + Fire materia combo and he then casts Beta back at the Midgar Zolom to kill it.
And now I have Beta to blast through any boss / annoying encounter for the next several hours.
While combat is usually something RPGs could use some work on, to me the bigger problem is poor pacing. It's a much more vague issue, so it's something that's a bit tough to pinpoint, but whenever I get burnt out on RPGs, it's less the moment-to-moment things like individual battles and moreso broader issues, like way too many individual battles between moments of storytelling, or massive infodump story sections that last sometimes more than an hour before I can get back to the combat.
Now this is a problem every game is vulnerable to, not just RPGs, but imo RPGs are much more susceptible to it because of their sheer scope. When shorter games (
Yes! Bad pacing often has ruined some otherwise fun games for me. Some games just... drag on for too long. Some 100hour games could be cut to 60hours and no one would be missing anything
12:40 "in uhhhhh double-D"
*ah, I see you are a man of culture as well.*
I don't think random encounters are bad at all it just depends alot on how it is done, Etrian Odyssey is a very good example of how to do it by telling the player when the random encounter will come in combination with being a dungeon crawler with relatively tough enemy encounters and resource management being very important makes it very a important gameplay element.
One of the most fun and engaging rpg combat engines I've encountered - for me anyway - was XenoSaga 2. With the boost mechanic and PCs who can chain their attacks into one another for tactical advantages, plus cycling through different bonuses from one turn to another, you're always thinking two steps ahead - fill up your boost gauge, break the enemy's guard, boost to someone with an aerial attack, launch the enemy into the air, boost to someone with a ranged attack to pound on them while they're helpless, they fall to the ground, boost to someone with a ground attack to finish them off! It encourages knowing what each of your PCs are capable of, what tactical role they're suited to, and how those roles synergize and play off one another. I also liked the stagger mechanic and the controversial paradigm system from Final Fantasy 13 for similar reasons.
I like the combat in Epic Battle Fantasy, especially 5, as far as traditional RPG battles go. Lots of different elements with different interactions, and you usually have to weight the pros and cons of each setup you're using, since you can't be good at everything at once.
Or I could just play SMT and have none of these problems.
SMT has all the same problems, and I say that as a somewhat fan of the series, including Persona 1 and 2.
SMT literally has every single problem he described in the video. Long and drawn out dungeons, filler enemies, etc. I still love the series though so I suppose it doesn’t matter much in the end
@@IceBlueLugia imo the dungeons are well designed and how does it have filler enemies? Most demons are completely unique and there are only a couple of pallete swap ones
I played disco elysium because of one of your videos and it was paradigm-shiftingly life-changingly amazing.
Thank you for slipping Barkley: SU&J-Gaiden in there. I appreciate it.
My problem with RPGs like the older FFs is when I get stuck at a boss battle and have to go back and grind, it puts me off playing for a while. Then I come back to the game and have to restart from the beginning because I have forgotten all the mechanics... The cycle then continues and the RPG is never completed
Really happy to see West of Loathing get a few seconds of video. It's probably the only RPG I can say I've beaten like half-a-dozen times and have all the Steam achievements for and yet have never fought the final boss in. It's the only one I've played so far where combat is almost entirely optional and really puts the RP in RPG in a way most video games don't. There's a few side quests that technically require combat but none of the main quest does and most of the side quests don't either. Also neat that some of the combat abilities also apply to out of battle situations, though I wish they did more often than they do. Great game. Highly recommend to anybody tired of boring RPG combat because if you do get bored you can instead make it a game to ignore as much of it as possible yet still beat as much of the game as possible.
That Final Fantasy battle interrupt made me laugh all the way from my inner child