Never Seen THIS Cause a MISFIRE - Part 2 (Jeep V6)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- Let's focus on this Variable Valve Lift (VVL) system and try to pinpoint exactly what is causing this annoying misfire on cylinder 2.
Did NOT expect to find this failure at all!
THINKTOOL PROS:
www.amazon.com...
ASTRO DC AMP CLAMP:
www.amazon.com...
Enjoy!
Ivan
Apologies for the video freeze GLITCH at minute 19:00 to 19:30! Video Editor had a bad day :(
I was thinking my phone was freezing up or the service was dropping 🤪
Yeah, I thought it was on my side 🙂
It happens on other channels as well.
At least you weren't naked this time..
LOL, my tablet freezes from time to time and reboots watching UA-cam videos. Thought that's what was happening.
As an experienced hydraulics tech I was yelling at the screen watching you test that solenoid. I knew too well that just because it clicks doesn't mean it's working properly. And then when it didn't click I was thinking mechanical failure, like a jammed plunger. I was so glad and relieved when you found that foreign object in there! What a crappy, cheapo design to use flimsy plastic parts in a critical system. ugh! I hate it when bean counters run anything!!!
But always blaming aftermarket, if oem was so good there wouldn't be such a need for aftermarket
@@TheRetiredtech Of course many times the parts canon isn't even necessary and then a real mechanic has to chase down the the problems cause by the AM parts. I'm seeing more and more where the parts canon has been fired, mechanics reinstalling the OEM parts just to get the vehicle back to a state were diagnostics are even possible.
@@TheRetiredtech in this case the OEM is also garbage 😝
@@TheRetiredtech OEM most always has a price premium and people continue to value price over quality. Unfortunately some OEM parts are junk too, but the chances of poor quality dramatically increases in the aftermarket.
The fix here is simple: remove existing engine, install 4.0L, never have a problem again.
This channel is an amazing gift to all the self employed mechanics that learn from your problem solving skills. Every time I have any mechanical problem I think to myself, how would Ivan or Eric approach this :o)
Pull the scope, every time since once you get familiar with it. You can attack any car based on symptoms only and a small autel scan tool for direction.
Yet another professional diagnosis presented in a professionally produced video. Thanks Ivan.
Appreciate your support John 👍
Incredible. Though some may have eventually replaced it , I doubt if anyone else would have spotted that tiny bit of shrapnel. “It’s a Fiat thing” Nice work Ivan. 👍
Such an inquisitive mind. While most would just throw away the bad solenoid and install a new one, you want to know exactly what went wrong. Excellent channel.
You just got another subscriber. I recently bought a 2017 GC with 109k miles, knowing it had a cylinder 2 misfire (got it very cheap). Mine runs fine at low rpm but has a misfire at high rpm. Changed plugs and swapped coils, but still have the #2 misfire. First thing tomorrow, I'm pulling the solenoid and checking to see if something is blocking the valve open.
Thank you for a great, educational video!
Update;
Pulled the solenoid and found a small piece of plastic wedged against the pintle and keeping the valve in an open position.
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!
Truly informative. Better than most police detective shows on TV. Very technical that's good. Seems like he don't try to preach but yet teach.
If Gary Larson were to weigh in on what we just watched, perhaps he would draw a team of Jeep engineers standing around sweating and looking very nervous. All their lab coats display old, "Cadillac" embroidery crudely covered up with red Sharpie, and "JEEP VVT/VVL TEAM" handwritten underneath. The caption reads: "Bob and his team remember the '4-6-8', and the unemployment line." 😆
I got a good laugh from your comment.
My boss (many, many years ago - I'm retired now) had one of those Caddy's when they first came out. Needless to say it ran well for a (very) short time. Then he came to his senses and ditched it.
*laughing ass off* someone needs to draw this and dedicate it to Larson! heck let's make a whole series, and roast everybody's bad engineering goofs.
boy do I ever miss the old inline 6 cylinders
I must be lucky to not have had a failed VVL come through my shop yet. But if I get one, I'll know what to look for. I say that because a good portion of the cliental that come through my shop, usually don't bother with regular maintenance or anything until the vehicle leaves them stranded. But anyway, good stuff Ivan.
hydraulic ball valves are always headache 😑 they do the same on any machine when they get problem these are cheaper way to control oil flow but its not reliable system.great work ivan
That piece has to be from inside the solenoid,
because it definitely didn't pass through that screen.
I have a 2017 GC Altitude, you saved me a trip to the shop. We replaced the solenoid (Mopar was unavailable, I ordered standard just like you did and it came with a Mopar solenoid as well), and found the exact piece of debris/plastic inside of mine! Thank you
Do you recall what DTC you had? I currently have P0303. I confirmed it's not the coil. I also replaced both cams, lifters and rockers on that bank. I'm hoping this is my issue.
As usual nice diagnostic work leading to proper repair. SMP being OEM part pleasant surprise, especially unavailable through dealer. Doubtful this fix found by average mechanic. Good work Ivan.
Another great lesson, Ivan. Yet another of the hundreds of ways that modern automotive systems can break down and leave you stranded by the side of the road. I really appreciate how you explained down to the broken plastic cage inside the solenoid the source of the problem.
Not many geniuses in your field, you are one of the best not only in your diagnosis but in you exclamation thanks for your time. DIY since 1962 still fixing my cars as best as I can Thanks Again Bill N LI NY
Thanks for the kind words Bill. I can't sleep until I find the root cause of the problem 😅
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnosticsjust curious how much did the entire bill for the customer including the new solenoid part?
Great detective work, enjoyed both parts and what a bonus the SMP box had the OEM part in there for around half the price 🏆
I had a car in a while back that had a gummed up solenoid as well. Turned out that there was a little piece of aluminum foil that was stuck to the mesh. I scratched my head until I did my next oil change which involved opening the oil jug removing .. the tin foil top... Aha! I made a mental note to always cut open these types of containers with my knife (before I just used to puncture with my thumb) to avoid any shards of aluminum going into the oil pan. I was a bit surprised that the oil filter didn't pick this piece up but... who knows
9th
Thanks so much Ivan for your example of patience and determination in your work.
It helps Me learn
So when I lived in Oregon, my house outside hose would randomly loose pressure. Made for washing your truck not fun. At first I blamed the wife for running water in the house like the washing machine or something. I mean sometime full pressure, sometimes 3/4 sometimes 1/3 and random. What the heck. I got a pressure transducer (water pressure meter from target) and I was right. I hired a plumber to replace the faucet, and make him give me the old one. I used my grinder cut it open. The little screw that held in the rubber washer worked its way out and was randomizing its orientation and blocking the flow. Bonus Footage No what really takes the cake is that the screw was in the washer when I looked at it. So somebody before me who owned the house the screw fell out and they just put in another new screw in the washer and left the old one dangling around in the valve. Your video reminded me of that damn hose.
So it ended up being a solenoid after all. By golly. At least your detective work did lead you to the right spot. Nice job Ivan!
Hi Ivan,
Glad you found the problem and cause and was able to get a new solenoid that turned out to be OEM. Stay safe.
Thanks Don, glad you enjoyed it 👍
Very interesting, and very, very well done Ivan. I thought the VVL valve clicked alright in Part1 . Which of course doesn't mean it works.
Again, exceptionally well done. Thanks for all you do to provide these videos.
Omegaman
yes it clicked just fine in part 1 and then he broke it and created a new problem
@@111-c7x2t No, I do not think he broke anything. The problem was there before he did anything. When he tested it on the bench in Part 1, it both clicked and moved and seemed to work fine. But, back on the car it failed again. I suspect the explanation is pretty simple, and also explains why the problem was intermittent.
That little piece of plastic Ivan found most likely moves around a little bit, sometimes prevent the VVL from going into High Lift Mode, and sometimes (like on the bench in Part 1), it does not block/prevent the VVL from going into High Lift Mode. This explanation makes perfect sense, and could (very likely does) explain all that was going on with this VVL Valve, the misfiring Cylinder 2, and the intermittence.
One other thing I thought of is that the entire time Ivan tested it on the bench it was horizontal. In the vehicle it is almost vertical, at least mostly vertical. With a good VVL Solenoid this would not matter, but with that piece of plastic bouncing around in there, this could make a difference. It could have moved such that it did not prevent the VVL Valve from working right on the bench, and then nearly vertically in the vehicle, not to mention the oil and the associated pressure, the piece of plastic could have moved to where it did prevent the VVL Valve from working right. After all, that was part of the complaint, vehicle ran good sometimes and missed other times. This is just a possibility, off the top of my head, and I am not saying this is what happened, but it is a possibility.
Omegaman
Well under heat or pressure it might act differently. Something internal not acting correctly.
Looks like the part of the plastic ring on a oil jug. Wonder if when someone changed the oil part of the ring fell into the engine. Great find either way!!
If that’s the case then the oil filter has not done its job
@@Syntappi Guess it depends on how much of it fell in there.If it was a large piece that fell in the filter might not catch it all. Again im not saying thats what it is just throwing it out there
I'm currently working on 2016 GR
Cherokee with exactly the same product. It's 11:30 pm now, and i just found your video.Thank you so much.
Ivan. Another great diag. What a mystery this was. Originally, on the bench, the solenoid worked and worked with NO problem. Then, using your "Hack" :-) on the Jeep, the solenoid started malfunctioning. Loved your look at all of the possibilities. And on to the next one. ha, ha, ha. Thanks again.
laid flat on bench, was vertical in engine.
Imagine doctors had this kind of diagnosis skill. I really appreciate this video as im dealing with this very problem. Already purchased coil pack and plugs before finding this video. I guess a tune up never hurts.
You are so good at creating videos with serious issues!, The engine must end up with wrong mixture in the cylinder 2, and hence misfire. This type of engine will be full of problems as the mileage goes up
Very satisfying to find the actual cause instead of using the parts cannon first and never really knowing what the problem was. Great work! I didn't know Jeep/Chrysler/Fiat was doing the lift control thing. I wonder if the other bits of ball retainer went straight to the sump. Poor oil pumps these days are doing so much in addition to the traditional role!
It’s Jeep thing you wouldn’t understand. Incredible diligence Ivan.
Or Possibly a Fiat Thing.
The Pentastar 3.6 has a variable pressure regulated oil pump, pcm maintains 30-36 psi at all rpms to reduce parasitic drag, you can disconnect oil pump solenoid connecter on side of block and oil pressure will go up to as much as 90 psi ,May be able to flush out debris.
I was wondering why the oil pressure didn't go up when I revved it 😅
I think the pentstar 3.6l has a duel stage oil pump that has high and low pressure.
That small piece of plastic resembles the T-tab end of those plastic lock "wires" that attach tags to clothing. Have you tried to break one when you get ready to wash that piece of clothing? They are super hard to break and you have to find a scissors or a knife.
Yes exactly what I was thinking, so based on past results that's probably wrong.
Good morning Ivan
Thanks for the most helpful video post yet for my 2016 Jeep Grand Cherokee. I experienced rough idle this past Sunday, and then check engine light came on. Code read P0302 misfire #2 cylinder. My first thought was ignition coil or spark plug since the truck has 78k on it. I changed those and was kicking myself for not watching your video sooner. After changing the VVT Solenoid front #2 everything was resolved another $140 later from the dealer since they only had the part in stocks. This morning, I decided to submit a vehicle complaint submitted to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). It's time these vehicle manufacturers start designing critical engine parts the right way. I think if more consumers submitted complaints, we could get more recalls added by the manufacturer. Thanks again for your help!
Those solenoids fail all the time on chevys , the metal mesh breaks and gets wedged in causing it to constantly being engaged . Thanks for the videos.
This is what was seen in a 2003 Honda CRV. Chain had been done because it was misdiagnosed. I saw a mesh piece missing from the timing solenoid and though that maybe the solenoid was partially stuck open allowing oil pressure bypass as the time was advanced as a soon as the car was started. New solenoid fixed the problem, the other tech said he did see something inside that was stuck but I didn't see that myself.
All of the Chevy solenoids that I have replaced were made in China. Even the O.E.replacements were made in China. I’m not sure they are any better quality-wise than Dorman.
Thanks, must be very satisfying when you finally track down the source of the problem and spot the detritus in the solenoid.
I am a Chemical Engineer, not motor, and I operated many machines with all sorts of fancy solenoids, hydraulic/Pneumatic, mechanically or electrically triggered, sticking solenoids was always a problem especially with dirty air or if crap gets into the oil.
that plastic piece is an easter egg for the next generation of Jeep lol
This Just Helped Me Figure Out Exactly What Is Wrong With My Jeep, Thank You!
What's wrong with your jeep is that it's a Chrysler product POS. 😂😂😂
Thanks for the video! Definitely saved me and my engine from a major headache! Easy fix, did it in a harbor freight parking while away from home for work!
Thank you so much for this video, i almost replaced rocker arms because of this issue. No one diagnosed as you did. I disassemble the sensor and i found the exact same small yellow thing inside it. Thanks for saving me.
Fisher is our go to source. Our local in Laurel Md. has really knowledgeable people. Thank you.
Master Technician at work again... Top job 👌👍👍
Great diagnosis Ivan ☝️👍reminds me of the time a small plastic piece of the air intake filter got sucked into carburettor throat and forced the throttle to be stuck wide open while driving at speed down the highway…luckily I was able to switch off the engine and safety coast to a stop 😅
Excellent diagnosis, repair and explanation master, greetings from the Dominican Republic ❤ I always learn a lot with you
I just looked and found that plastic in the bad solenoid the mech. just gave back to me one week ago. Thanks for your videos!
Great video and some excellent diagnostics 👍 Interesting that activating low lift at idle causes a misfire, I wouldn't have expected that under such a low load condition.
Very clever approach to test the valve in place and, bye bye mystery! Really odd failure of a miniature plastic retainer (wonder if this was a first, or if it happened before in other cars).
Modesty appart, my doubt about the solenoid valve testing OK in the bench and still failing under pressure, was somehow correct :-) Great that only the solenoid valve was required.
when I was watching your video about intermitant misfire in a 2008 Pontiac, that really didn't come to a firm diagnosis. Pretty sure I remember replacing this solinoid in my 2009 Pontac for similar problems. I trouble shot down to a couple of solinoids and a coupleof other possibilities but nothing really firm. I went and asked the dealership parts department " which one do you sell most often "It ws the valve posution solinoid you were just showing us . Replaced solinoid in my 2009 G5 and I haven't had the problem since. Troubleshooting by sales records!!!
Imagine the amount of waste (coil packs, spark plugs, CAM/CRK sensors, Motor oil, coolant, may be the cylinder head or even worst an Engine) that could have ended up in a local dump if this Jeep didn't go to Ivan! Ivan is not just saving the customer's money, he is even saving the Environment! Thanks Ivan!
😁👍
GREAT vid IVAN. I've made some nylon and delren parts for staple tools that cycle fast,and that looks like nylon.it's cheaper but more brittle,maybe because of heat cycles it broke apart.if so all the rest of those would be suspect,we shall see.Maybe the engineer of that component felt {that} material was the best at that price level?i think he used plastics instead of stainless sheet metal encase that of stress cracking.Who knows,nice work ,IVAN.
There must be a link between not reading all other comments before adding one's own and thinking Ivan hadn't considered a swap for a working part elsewhere on the engine 🙄.
Good methodology again. The list of vehicles I'd consider purchasing diminishes further.
I suspect that plastic piece was some kind of "X"-shaped keeper that was supposed to keep the ball in place and prevent it from falling out. The keeper got damaged and wedged in the solenoid track.
Ivan, Thank you for another great video. Hope you and yours are well!
Who would have suspected that without intensive diagnosis! I actually don't blame the owner for replacing the ignition components that he did replace - everything (including your initial assessment) pointed to ignition related. Perhaps he should put the initial OEM coil packs back on & keep the aftermarket ones for emergency spares to get him out of trouble if needed.
plastic?? debris from collapsed/disintegrated oilfilter or perhaps timing chain guides? okay just finished watching, fantastic job ivan.cheers.
You are the best bro I’m from Cyprus and from the first time I watched your videos I realised how expert you are ❤
❤️ Your top top man I like you a lot watching your videos.Please more videos lol
As I see it, there are only two possibilities of where the debris could come from.
1. It is a part of the internals of the solenoid assembly
2. It is a manufacturing contamination, during assembly, possibly from the machine/robot that performs the assembly operation. That whole process is probably automated, and quality checks on a certified process would be made only on samples of the work in progress..
3. I should have watched to the end of the video. ;)
Ivan, yep that's exactly what happened to the old solenoid that what i was working on. The piece of plastic disintegrated!! That's why I diagnosed a bad part. But let's wait til 7,000 or 8,000 miles later when the engine locks up. As 2011 to 2014 engine left bank cylinder fail die to premature wear!! Great video!! Noticed the glitch!! Thought my phone went kooky, lol.
Nice analysis of the valve Ivan!
I wonder if you you connected the scope to the MAF and monitored the readings, would you be able to see it when it misfires. Between the scope and the misfire counter on the scanner both should show up when the misfire was occurring. Very cool video!!
I have ordered my parts same way. Local store manager always noticed when I walked in. Ordered directly from RA once, sent wrong parts right box. Rather see in person at local store for same price.
Bet this is why the OEM part is in that box. Can only hope the rest made it to the filter and why now there is a PHAD service bulletin, @x-mileage inspect and `eh or change to(Updated Part) that was never made. Possibility of using a cross pin to modify an original and remove that plastic.
Same in Japan, OEM Parts in a lower priced company box but you get top quality parts, Honda AfterMarket Parts HAMP as an example. AWESOME CASE STUDY.
Currently have a jeep in the shop.. same EXACT symptoms and same EXACT PROBLEM!! Crazy.
Another great video and great learning experience. I am always amazed at people sending in their vehicles for repair on empty but I guess they think that it will come back full..lol.
If I have to take it to a gas station then it's an extra half hour labor charge on top of the expensive Bidengas 😅
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics opec is cutting production again too, Usa / Russia/ Saudis / were definitely in a tight spot.
@@frizzlefry1921 Yup gonna be an expensive winter for sure
You get the best case studies, awesome work Ivan!!!
As said by Engineer Scott: "The more complex the plumbing, the easier to gum up the works."
amazing, it was actually a solenoid for once, they're well known for rocker roller bearing failures and the lifter to fail. but they usually have a clickety clackety tick in the top end with roller failure, but the lifters can be sneaky. now there may be pieces that got into the lifter or in a galley waiting to block oil flow to it and the opposite issue will occur.
At 75,000+ miles one solenoid failed. How many of these solenoids are there on this engine? When is the next one failing?
Great detective work! You explained it well and I was understanding it with you. See you on the next video!
Nice work Ivan. SO glad my 2018 3.6 does not have this pathetic system.. time bomb, I'd order the other solenoids while you can get them!
So they only used in 2016 and 2017? I just worked on a 2020 Pacifica 3.6 and it had those solenoids!
Another great repair Ivan !
Ivan, your going to have to add a magnifying glass to your tool box for these kind of problems. My old eyes would be struggling with this one. Thanks for Sharing!
YOUR VIDEO IS AWESOME, THANK YOU FOR SHARING. HELPED ME OUT TREMENDOUSLY
Similar problem as with the SONIC that an obstruction caused the problem. You're a SUPER smart DX guy Ivan and a value to the industry. I have now subbed
Ivan,
Great video set, case study and diagnosis - thank you!
Paul (in MA)
I really appreciate your videos. I like scannerdanner a lot but he's all over the place. I like how you seem to stick to one diagnostic process. And I really like how you show how to use the scan tool data. I'm learning quite a bit. Thank you
Way Cool Ivan~be cool to tear the oil filter apart and look for more shrapnel
You are remarkable! You've unbridled curiosity and enthusiasm... and LOTS OF TIME to both achieve and LEARN.
S~M~A~R~T ! You make intelligent guesses a.k.a interim hypotheses predicated upon informal statistical analysis (TWO cams failing simultaneously is, indeed, statistically unlikely. Possible; not probable.) Diagnosis is always an exercise in sound judgement of critical thinking.
Definitely takes an investment in time to learn, but well worth it :)
Good job Ivan! My vote is the time chain guide is probably next.
Or the other 3 solenoids 😂
Timing guides are pretty durable on these 3.6s
I did not mention on my comment on the first video , about 3 weeks ago I had one in a Durango went to get a dealer solenoid and it’s on galactic back order, used a Napa one and fingers crossed it has not come back. At least it’s not like the Hemis wiping out the camshafts.
After thought: Was the other solenoid that only affected one cylinder the same part number? If so, then you had a known good to test or swap. Being on the other side, it would probably be very time consuming to get to it anyway.
Bruv... I like the way you think. You sound like me when I'm troubleshooting IT problems... logical and methodical diagnosis. If you and I were stuck on a deserted island I'm sure the end result would be we both survive and said island being transformed into a tropical resort. We'd get STUFF done. 😂 Great video... This was the same problem I had with my 2016-17 Jeep Grand Cherokee.
BRILLIANT analysis & diagnosis Ivan! I was wondering where the hell that weird little yellow plastic pos came from, but you worked that out when you got to see a new solenoid! What is the actual shape of these plastic parts when they're intact?
"Pretty nuts" For sure. Very cool diag Ivan!
I say if it were a 1st gen or early 2nd gen pentastar it might be part of the oil filter pressure relieve valve but I think by '16 they reengineered the filter valve.
They fixed one problem but had to engineer another weak link 😂
I've changed that valve. Our U-Pull it charged $3 once and $5 another time. At least it gets the vehicle back on the road.
Hey Ivan! Greetings from Hershey, PA. Great detective work!
Nice fix and great learning information.
Ivan isn't that solenoid you are activating is for the exhaust valves the one for the intake valves is on the rear of the cylinder head right under the fuel line. I have been fighting a 2016 Durango with a code for #2 cylinder in the high lift position. I should have the new intake oil control solenoid in a couple of days. thanks for the video.
So I hit the link for the think tool diagnostic tool bought thanks for your output on your diagnostics
Awesome video! Great information!
This was extremely helpful! I will be inspecting the exact same solenoid.👊🏻
I think that little bit of plastic jammed up your video at 19.00😄 Great fix Ivan 👍
This was an AWESOME video for sure!! Thanks Ivan!!
Ivan, out of curiosity, to test the solenoid could you have swapped it with one of the other ones to see if the misfire changed cylinders? Much like swapping coils, chasin a misfire.
I believe the other solenoids are quite a lot more work to get to.
This is were a dealership mechanic might go right to the solenoid knowing the reliability of the part. This knowledge might cause parts to be replaced before full diagnostics but I can kind of understand why it happens. The complexity of the cars sure make it harder for DIYers to figure out the problem. Interesting problem and I knew a little about VVTs before but not this lift design.
Automotive Standard is Feed from the bottom, where the Mash is, but your Test Equipment for solenoids is Not good enough and IT IS Not Open and Close once because it is pwm Signal in Most cases, so frequently movement
Function is as a Garden Hose, bottom Feed is water Tap, end of Open Hose is the upper Windows, the middle Window is a drilled hole in the Hose.
You regulate the pressure with Holding your thumb in the end of the Hose, the little fontain Out of the drilled hole is the useful workpressure.
The Ball is a intakevalve, the Regulator Stick let IT Open or Close with about 1000hz.
You can regulate this Working pressure extremly good with this proportionalvalves
My guess: A broken piece from the plastic spool that the solenoid is wound on.
Great Video. I hope the Chrysler techs watched your video.
Well done Ivan 👍
I have replaced 3 of these solenoids so far and they were all for cylinder 2. the fault I had was for valve stuck in high lift position. the first one I worked on someone had just had the valve cover off and cut the bottom o ring on the solenoid when they reinstalled it.
That is puzzling me as well, why is this part readily failing on Cyl2 and not on Cyl1 because it is the same part.
@@memyself7419 Different heat cycling maybe?
@@petrnemecek4379 That's also what I am thinking. The engine has cylinder shutdown on 3 cylinders and wonder if Cyl2 is one of those and that puts increased cycles on the solenoid and possibly breaking the plastic part that Ivan noticed.